Knicks Morning News (2019.05.31)

It certainly looks that way after game 1. Toronto was running the Warriors off the three point line and making them take tough 2’s. Their defense is legitimate, doubling the ball out of Curry’s hands, forcing turnovers, and definitely gumming up Golden State’s usually fluid offense.

They better find someone to guard Siakam soon, that guy killed them. With Iguodala re-injured and Durant apparently out for a while still, this will be very interesting. Winning with the likes of Cook, Jerebko, Evans, and other scrubs getting major minutes seems unlikely.

I expected the Raptors to win Game 1 or 2. If GS wins next one, I still think a gentleman sweep in possible. If the Raps go 2-0, I think we’re seeing a game 7.

Are the Knicks a lock to draft RJ Barrett at No. 3? Not quite. They are definitely exploring a number of alternatives, for example the possibility of sliding back and acquiring the No. 8 and 10 picks from the Hawks.

As long as it doesn’t yield a Cam Reddish and Rui Hachimura result

I don’t have faith the Knicks will make the right pick with whatever pick or picks they end up with, but I do have faith they will work hard at evaluating many options. The current Knicks seems diligent at least.

We all know it’s a big mistake to overreact to a game 1 in the NBA Playoffs (or a game 2 for that matter, see Milwaukee-Toronto)

Yes, Kawhi was subpar but Siakam played out of his freaking mind and the Raptors hit some ridiculous shots in crunch time (that bank hook shot by Siakam was crazy)

Kerr will make some adjustments and I still think the Warriors win in 6.

Trading 3 for 8 and 10 seems fair. We’d be giving up a good amount of upside, particularly in this draft where things get very role player-y very quickly, but if the plan is to sign two max guys no matter what that might not be a bad thing. You could still come away with something like Hunter/Langford/Alexander-Walker and Clarke, which would be a solid haul.

Of course, being the Knicks the aforementioned Reddish/Hachimura haul seems far more likely.

I was impressed with Toronto’s poise and defense. This is the first game in forever that the Warriors didn’t overwhelm an opponent at any point. Draymond didn’t want anything to do with shooting the ball — dude was out there thinking he had KD on the floor. Toronto’s athleticism and length made Iggy and Livingston look old. Why the hell was Steve Kerr giving all those minutes to Cook/McKinnie/Jerebko? McKinnie was out there during critical minutes in the 4th.

So weird to watch a game where the Warriors looked outplayed the entire game.

jotd: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZqQT5904_U

Toronto’s defense was so stifling, this was the first time I ever felt the Warriors needed another scoring option. Curry and Thompson are going to get theirs, but they don’t have anyone else that can step up with a big game. Iggy is older now. Draymond will have hot nights but he’s not really a 3rd option. I’m not a Harrison Barnes fan, but back in the pre Durant years he was a guy that could knock down open 3s and score in other ways here or there playing off the other two in situations like this. Unless Iggy finds the fountain of youth or Durant comes back, this is going to be a tough series.

All that said, Toronto can’t play any better than they did and it was still a tough game in their own gym.

I love Siakim & think he a budding star, but he’s not going to have another night like that.

I love Gasol’s defense and overall basketball IQ, but he’s not going to be a consistent threat on offense like that.

This series is far from over. The Warriors are probably still the favorite to steal 1 game in Toronto and hold home court.

I’m not a big fan of trading down unless we are pretty convinced the player’s available at #3 will not become stars. The whole point of tanking is to try to find a star in the draft. It’s easy to add solid role players and #3 options of the type we’ll probably find lower in the lottery. I think we should proceed on the assumption that we are still building via draft and don’t have a single potential star scorer on the team yet (or at least not anymore). If we are fortunate enough to sign players like Durant, Kyrie, or Kemba that’s great. There’s won’t be much downside to having the BPA out of the draft also.

@19

As I said in my prior post, the pre Durant Warriors were younger and deeper than this version without Durant. They were good enough to win 73 games. The team as constructed now without Durant is still awesome, but not as good as that one.

@ 20 – OK, so I think we agree that this current group, without Durant, is not dominant. We might disagree on how dominant the 2015 and 2016 teams were.

@23 – I never felt the 90’s Bulls were just one d*ck punch away from losing a Finals series.

LeBron was his own de facto GM most of the time. Someday he’ll be a real GM and he’ll suck at it.

The Raptors played very good defense but the Warriors still scored pretty well. They made 29 free throws and had a 59.5% ts as a team which is above their season average, scoring 109 points on a slow paced game.

The Warriors defense was more of an issue, as they got roasted by Siakam every time and Gasol had a throwback game, plus they sent the Raptors to the line 32 times. They have looked dominant this playoffs because Draymond was looking like he was 100% back to his top form, but he was very poor this game. He couldn’t slow Siakam at all, shot poorly and had a ton of costly turnovers and bad fouls. The Raptors made a lot of tough shots that we can’t expect them to keep making, but the Warriors defense has been declining for a while and that becomes a big issue against a versatile team like Toronto, where you double Kawhi but he can pass to Gasol and Siakam and they can make plays on their own. When they smothered Harden or Paul, the other Rockets players couldn’t punish them for it, but Lowry, Siakam and Gasol definitely can.

Reports are saying Durant is expected back in the midway point of the series, which should probably be game 3 if they lose Sunday. Then it all changes, because they get a long defender to match up with Siakam and a crazy scorer to put even more pressure.

“Crazy how Lebron got lucky on 2 of his 3 finals victories. He could easily only have one ring.”
Truth

Think how that would have changed Lebron’s legacy if he was 1-8 in the finals?? He’s one dick punch and 1 buzzer beating 3 (by Ray Allen I believe) from having that exact record. That would not be GOAT -like.

We’ll see which coach makes the adjustments that matter for Game 2. Nick Nurse seems like a worthy adversary to Steve Kerr.

Not sure about the Knicks trading back to 8 and 10, I guess it depends who’s available. If they do it the outcome could very well be another Knox and Frank based on recent results – that would truly suck.

Think how that would have changed Lebron’s legacy if he was 1-8 in the finals?? He’s one dick punch and 1 buzzer beating 3 (by Ray Allen I believe) from having that exact record. That would not be GOAT -like.

We don’t really have to have that conversation because none of that actually happened. Does Jordan win in ’97 if Kerr misses that shot in Game 6? What about when B.J. Armstrong scored 18 points on 11 tSA in the 1-point victory over the suns in ’93? What if he goes 4-10 instead of 6-10? What if the Bulls lose that hypothetical Game 7? What if Pippen doesn’t have a ridiculous 2nd half of Game 6 in ’92, putting up 26 points on 17 shots by the game’s end and helping to hold Drexler to 8-24 shooting? What if interior defense doesn’t lock shit down and reverse the +18 points-in-paint disparity that the Blazers were holding over the Bulls at halftime?

I do think that for all the #1a and #2b talk, Jordan was the more consistent playoff performer and LeBron had the higher peaks in his performance (2009 and 2018 are better than any single postseason Jordan ever had, which is an enormous feat). But let’s not start trying to re-write narratives about how LeBron shrunk from the spotlight in the Finals. He was the main reason that all of his 9 Finals teams made it in the first place.

On LeBron: the 50-win, 3.33 SRS ’07 Cavs had absolutely no business in the NBA Finals. None. Of the 8 non-LeBron players who played >200 minutes in that playoffs, only Daniel Gibson (3.2 BPM on excellent shooting), Andy Varejao (1.9 BPM) and Z (0.6) had positive BPMs. And we’re talking about a 21-year-old LeBron. 21! Jordan didn’t even make the Finals until he was 27 — and that delay wasn’t even his fault, as he was a dominant playoff performer as early as his rookie season!

Yeah, and as much as Wade was a great player in his prime, Pippen is a better player than anyone LeBron ever had as a 2nd option. LeBron faced some pretty incredible teams too, that Spurs 2013-14 team was really really good and the Warriors are the Warriors. It’s not like he lost many upset finals, I’d say his team was the favorite to win it all only on 4 of his 9 finals appearances, the ones with the Heat, and even that is somewhat questionable against the Spurs. I’d argue the only finals where his team should have clearly been favorites and they lost is the Dallas one, but it also was their first finals together.

Wade was not really an ideal sidekick to LeBron. They both needed the ball in their hands a lot. They won some ringzz anyway, but it was not an ideal pairing. Jordan and Pippen were perfectly complementary as Pippen was a great off-ball player.

That’s fair. But maybe we are giving Wade short thrift. The title he won and the title Dirk won really stand out in the last 40 years, along with the one Lebron won against the Warriors.

Wade was at the tail end of his peak Lebron’s first two years on the Heat. The Dallas loss is the only finals loss where Lebron’s team was clearly better.

I guess it was somewhat lucky dray got suspended for a game but they beat a team that went 73-9 3 games in a row.

We don’t really have to have that conversation because none of that actually happened. Does Jordan win in ’97 if Kerr misses that shot in Game 6? What about when B.J. Armstrong scored 18 points on 11 tSA in the 1-point victory over the suns in ’93? What if he goes 4-10 instead of 6-10? What if the Bulls lose that hypothetical Game 7? What if Pippen doesn’t have a ridiculous 2nd half of Game 6 in ’92, putting up 26 points on 17 shots by the game’s end and helping to hold Drexler to 8-24 shooting? What if interior defense doesn’t lock shit down and reverse the +18 points-in-paint disparity that the Blazers were holding over the Bulls at halftime?

Well for one thing, Jordan’s Bulls won all their titles in 6 games or fewer. So I guess the answer to most of these questions is that they would’ve played another game in which the Bulls were heavily favored to win.

Wade often gets underrated because he didn’t really play a modern game and didn’t adjust so well when he lost a few steps, but he was a massively impactful player in his prime. But he was still no Pippen, and I agree he didn’t fit LeBron as perfectly as Pippen fit alongside MJ. LeBron also never had a player who was as impactful as Rodman was during the second three peat, a guy who could guard literally anyone and grab every rebound on the court.

It’s crazy to think about it, and some of it is LeBron-as-GM fault, but through his entire 16 year career we can say LeBron was on the best team in the league for a maximum of 4 seasons, depending on how you feel about the Spurs team that beat them.

To me, Green getting suspended had nothing to do with luck. Green’s inability to control himself was no different than being unable to hit a jumper- it was a legitimate flaw in his game and it cost them.

Klay Thompson is objectively: a very good defender, a 40% shooter from 3 this season on over 7 per game, a .571 TS%, and the clear #2 scorer on an all time great team before Durant came. Yes, his BPM/WS/VORP may not show this as much as the rest, but damn are you wrong when you think he’s a league average player.

This is totally off the cuff, but I’m sure I’d rather have him than 80% of the players out there, maybe 90%.

Klay is way better than average. He’s a deserving All-Star.

Pretty encouraged that the FO is looking at trading back. Regardless of the merits of RJ vs Clarke/Hunter/Rui/NAW/etc, trading down is almost always a sign of a patient front office. Aka the opposite of every previous Knicks FO. Not falling in love with pointzzz and brand names is pretty key to success. If they don’t see RJ as a star they should trade back.

Klay’s 29. Where’s the evidence he’s still an objectively stout defender? He seems to be very much just a great shooter now.

Hearing a lot of eye test here fellas

Jowles, I wasn’t disparaging Lebron’s legacy. I think people who think he’s not one of the best players ever because he’s lost in the finals are idiots. 9 straight finals is a ridiculous achievement. And its weird to ding a player for making the finals so many times and losing. He had to win all of those playoff games to even get there. Its incredible. Just think its interesting that 2 of his finals victories were so close and he could easily only have one ring to his name.

But yeah, Jordan’s teams all won in 6 games so if they hadn’t won those games…do you really doubt Jordan would have lost those game 7’s? Cause I sure as hell don’t! I think that is one reason why I would still put Jordan and the Bulls above Lebron or Golden State. He was 6 for 6 in the Finals and it wasn’t even really that close cause he never even went to game 7. And there were good teams he played against, the Bulls were just better than everyone else. God it was annoying.

It’t not just “eye test” with Klay’s defense. He’s played a lot of minutes for some very good defensive teams, he has a good reputation as a defender (2nd team all-defense this year) and (eye test alert) when you watch him play, he plays pretty much like what his reputation says. He stays with his man, has good core strength so he’s difficult to dominate physically, and he makes good decisions.

If you asked me “how is Bradley Beal’s position defense” I’d probably have to throw the shrug emoticon because I don’t watch a lot of Wizards basketball. But we have all watched a shit ton of Warriors basketball over the years. It’s not too hard to see that Klay is a pretty good defender. Just like when you watch Tim Hardaway Jr., it’s rather obvious that he sucks. Klay’s defense is like the inverse of that. Now, he is getting a bit older, that’s a fair point, and the Dubs were not as good a defensive team this year, but I kind of feel like they mostly ranked only 13th in DRating because Draymond was phoning it in for most of the year.

I’m not a big “eye test” guy at all but Klay does seem to me to be one of those players who doesn’t get his defensive value captured in a box score. It seems to me like that kind of player does exist. I mean, what do I know. I’m just a guy on the internet.

Think how that would have changed Lebron’s legacy if he was 1-8 in the finals?

@37 “Maybe he would have wound up as the NBA’s new logo, replacing the last guy to go 1-8 in the Finals?”

Touche’ – well by that logic if Lebron really wanted to be the new logo he should have lost those 2 Finals and then it could have been so.

I get all the Clarke love here but if the Knicks trade back to 8 and 10 there’s no guarantee he will still be there when they pick. Hunter will almost certainly be gone before 8. I like the idea, not sure I trust the management to make the right call.

I will say this about Klay Thompson – when he gets hot no one shoots better than him, it’s insane.

if Masai Ujiri calls and offers Ibaka’s expiring, Pascal Siakim, and two 1RPs (with mild protection on the 2nd pick)

…I hang up the phone and call the league office to let them know that someone is out there impersonating Masai Ujiri.

Siakam is going to be a Raptor until the next meteor touches down. He’s 25 and makes $2.3M next year.

There’s simply no way Toronto offers Siakam plus picks for a guy the Pelicans want to trade. If it comes down to “Kawhi leaves unless we get Davis”, which doesn’t seem to be the way Kawhi operates at all, they would offer Siakam straight up with filler or only the picks and guys like VanVleet and Anunoby. Siakam is a lot more productive than the other guys rumored to be part of packages for Davis, and his salary is so small.

My only issue with trading down is, if Clarke gets picked 7th, what do we even do then? If the draft goes Zion, Ja, RJ, Culvert, Garland, Reddish and Clarke, does that leave us with what? Coby White and Hunter or Doumbouya? Maybe Reddish? I’d much much rather just pick Barrett.

Hah! Didn’t even read Bruno’s post first. Only way I would want them to trade down is if they otherwise plan on going Cam at 3. Then please please trade down.

My only issue with trading down is, if Clarke gets picked 7th, what do we even do then? If the draft goes Zion, Ja, RJ, Culvert, Garland, Reddish and Clarke, does that leave us with what? Coby White and Hunter or Doumbouya? Maybe Reddish? I’d much much rather just pick Barrett.

Barrett for Clarke at 7 plus a future unprotected first. Or a good young player or a protected first and multiple seconds. Clarke will likely be a better player than Barrett and far less potential to Wiggins him (i.e. sign him to a max deal despite absolutely no growth as a player).

If other FO people want to pin their hopes on Barrett being a superstar in six-ish years, fine! Exploit that shit and get the better player today and decide to max him or not when he’s 26.

I totally agree that if Clarke is available at that range, we should definitely trade down. I’m just not confident they even have Clarke in their radar.

I don’t get the idea of trading back because this is going to be a win now team with Durant, so what’s the point of trading down when you could get a really good win now player for the #3 pick? I mean, if you could guarantee me that Clarke is there at #8, I guess it makes sense, but that seems far from a likely thing.