Knicks Morning News (2019.02.07)

I’m trying to compare what we got for KP to what LA got for Tobias Harris. KP has more potential, and is 3 years younger, but he’s hurt. so slightly more value. Smith Jr is a slightly better prospect than Shamet. two first rounds in both; kinda a wash. we got a protected one, but Philly’s pick should be very late. We dumped a shit ton of salary. So, kinda a wash? did I just talk myself into thinking we got a good deal?

does anyone have any idea why this league rule about being able to trade Dennis Smith as long as he’s not combined with another player exists?

I’m starting to get the feeling AD is down to us or Boston. But there’s multiple reasons New Orleans can’t/won’t do it now.

For one thing, our 2019 pick would be involved and AD coming here would mess up our tank.

For another, we can’t include Smith. And I don’t think the league would look kindly on circumventing their rule by doing trades.

However, there is risk in waiting. If we get Zion, we might not want to trade our pick. I would hope the brass isn’t so star hungry that they’d package Mitch and Zion and more for AD.

One of the saddest subplots of today is that if AD doesn’t get moved, every great Mitch game from here on out could push him further out the door. I just don’t see us having the fortitude to withhold him the way Ainge held Rondo back.

Also, that KD presser last night. Whoa.

https://mobile.twitter.com/MarkG_Medina/status/1093394362224922625

that’s a good point, Hubert…..I hadn’t thought about what having AD now will do to our pick, and you are right. I think that’s good news for us; knowing what that pick is helps us make a decision. Although, if NA wasn’t interested in KP, will they still be interested if we dont get the 1?

that’s a good point, Hubert…..I hadn’t thought about what having AD now will do to our pick, and you are right. I think that’s good news for us; knowing what that pick is helps us make a decision. Although, if NA wasn’t interested in KP, will they still be interested if we dont get the 1?

Just for the record, if though… should through divine intervention Zion falls into out lap, I’m not trading him to anyone for anyone including AD. He is Charles Barkley (sans the douchebaggery) at a minimum and has a chance to be significantly better. And he is cheap for 4 years allowing you to fill 2 positions with elite players for the price of one with our cap space.

WeirdJohn……just go with pointz scored. that’s the most important stat. that’s how they decide who wins the game.

Just for the record, if though… should through divine intervention Zion falls into out lap, I’m not trading him to anyone for anyone including AD. He is Charles Barkley (sans the douchebaggery) at a minimum and has a chance to be significantly better. And he is cheap for 4 years allowing you to fill 2 positions with elite players for the price of one with our cap space.

I agree. If we had Zion and Mitch making $11 million, that’s as good a foundation as one can hope for.

This KP trade to open 2 max slots is starting to remind of the time Walsh opened 2 slots for Lebron and everyone starting celebrating.

This is different. Walsh traded our rookie, an unprotected first round pick and another swap right to open cap space.

The only loss now is KP and many of us didn’t want to pay him the max anyway.

Now that the Clippers have close to 2 max slots opened for next year should we be concerned?

Yes but it’s even worse than that. Mavs have a max slot if they stretch Courtney. Would KD/Kyrie/Kawhi want to team up with KP and Luka? Those 3 plus Powell/Kleber/Finney-Smith/Timmy/Room Exception might be attractive. You never know. There may be more impetus to put KP on the court before the end of the season.

Would KD/Kyrie/Kawhi want to team up with KP and Luka?

Luka, Porzingis, Durant, and Hardaway…. in Dallas instead of New York. What a gut punch that would be. Might as well sign Vonleh for the room exception while they’re at it.

One of the biggest problems with Dallas being a player in free agency is that Porzinigis is 1,000% going to bad mouth the Knicks to any and every free agent we’re in competition for.

How depressing would it be if the trade deadline passed another year and we didn’t do a single deal . I mean we are the worst team in the league and no other team seems interested in dealing for any of our expirings.

Had we not moved kp We would be staring at giving home the max, paying Timmy and Lee next year. Tell me honestly what FA would want to join that situation ?

Also, big win for the Nets last night. Their starters got smoked but Demarre and Ed Davis and Rondae were +24, +17, and +17 respectively.

Jokic is a monster. These lines from a center are like science fiction. Just another casual 25-14-10 night.

Another good article about Zion: https://watchstadium.com/news/defending-zion-williamson-12-players-describe-facing-dukes-freshman-star-02-05-2019/

The KP trade was good because it would’ve been a bad idea to pay him 5/$156M, not because it opened up two max slots for us

I understand there are different opinions on KP’s value in terms of contribution to wins now, the probability of him improving with added strength and good coaching etc.., and injury risk.

However, the toughest part of any rebuild is getting the 3 stars you need to contend. Not all those stars are going to be franchise megastars that are actually underpaid at the max. Some of them are just going to be all-stars that can contribute and win games on both sides of the ball or perhaps just outstanding players on just one side that hold their own on the other side. Those guys are going to get the max too. We already had one of the latter in hand. Even if he never goes far beyond what he already is other than learning how to play smarter and getting a little stronger, we had a bird in hand. Now we have no bird in hand and it’s already starting to look like there’s nothing but thorns in that bush.

The rebuild does not end here.

We have an excellent 1st round pick. Even if we don’t get a star if we use the cap space well perhaps we can eventually turn those assets into a star. But right now Knox is miles away from making a positive contribution on either side and Frank looks more like a complimentary defensive specialist.

We are several years into this rebuild already (the draft of KP being the starting point) and we are the worst team in the NBA and don’t have a prospect for a star yet. Even if we draft 1 this year, it will be 4-5 years before he’s hitting stride and then we still have to find 2 more.

If we don’t get any stars in free agency, we set our rebuild back a few years. That’s just a fact.

Boston College coach Jim Christian said about Williamson: “For all the things said about him, seeing him live for the first time … he plays so dang hard. He changed the whole game. He comes up with more balls than anyone I’ve ever seen. That’s a straight winner.”

I just watched some video on Youtube (with something like 600k views) that said Zion could be a bust because he’s not “skilled.” Like he basically says that Wiggins is another athleticism-first guy who couldn’t distance himself from NBA athletes, so Zion could have the same problem.

Like, nevermind the enormous gap in their college stats — who the fuck watches Zion and says, “Eh, lacks skills?” He’s got a great handle, puts it on the ground with both hands, finishes with both hands, can slash into the paint, can back his opponent down, always seems to find a way to get to the rim on- or off-ball. He’s shooting .701 TS% on 28.1 USG%! You don’t do that without “skills.”

eFG% of .738 in ACC play. Conference play!

We are several years into this rebuild already (the draft of KP being the starting point) and we are the worst team in the NBA and don’t have a prospect for a star yet.

You can’t say with a straight face we were several years into the rebuild when he were missing 2 #1 picks, trading away 2nd rounders to move awful players for no reason and spending cap space on Derick Rose , Aaron afl-LOL-o and the corpse of Noah. A pretty laughable supposition.

Yeah…. we should be several years into a rebuild but we arent and avoided dishing out 153M on a big injury risk than hasn’t shown the ability to string together 6 good weeks of NBA basketball.

@27

But can he jab step 3 times before shooting over a defender? That’s what skill is.

VinCoug – Great piece on Zion. Interesting to here what other players said about him. His personality seems to be amongst his best qualities. That was the one thing I can remember about Beasley as a negative. His numbers were insane but there were definite rumblings about off court stuff.

I don’t know how anyone could watch Zion and say he is anything less than the best prospect since Lebron. He’s just unbelievable.

Yeah…. we should be several years into a rebuild but we arent and avoided dishing out 153M on a big injury risk than hasn’t shown the ability to string together 6 good weeks of NBA basketball.

These numbers are entirely made up, but maybe it’s a new way to see things for people who disagree with the above statement:

Odds of Porzingis becoming a true max player post-ACL (his defense + >.580 TS%): 25%
Odds of the future first round picks turning into >3 BPM players: 5%
Odds of the Knicks signing two max free agents with the space: 10%
Odds of DSJ becoming a serviceable PG: 10%
Odds of the Knicks giving $156M to an average player: 0%

And that last bit alone makes the trade worth it to me. If the 1RPs don’t become stars, the franchise is not crippled. If the Knicks don’t sign Kyrie/Durant, the franchise is not crippled. If DSJ flops, the franchise is not crippled. But if they give Porzingis $156M and he gets injured/regresses/maintains his anemic offensive efficiency/does not have the same motor on defense because of his knee, the franchise is crippled.

(I mean, I guess the Knicks could pull a Vlade and sign someone like Barnes to a max deal. But the reduction of a KP max mistake to zero is huge, especially since it seems a foregone conclusion that he’ll get every available dollar. For Dallas, the risk is enormous. They have a legit franchise player who’s a teenager and probably want to keep him twenty years. They need to not fuck up his ascent via shitty surrounding contracts or he’ll be scheming for another superteam in the summer of 2022.)

I don’t know how anyone could watch Zion and say he is anything less than the best prospect since Lebron. He’s just unbelievable.

A friend of mine sent me a list of Duke prospects who failed in the NBA in order to temper my enthusiasm.

In his defense, he is an excellent corporate attorney.

Sometimes a guy will do something that you can’t believe. In the recent game vs Boston College, Zion went down with a ridiculously low dribble zigzagging between two guys and layed it in. YouTube it. He is 285 lbs. It was something Mugsy friggin Bogues MAYBE could have done. Every game it’s another jaw dropping thing. I have never seen anyone like him. His second jump is the quickest i’ve ever seen. He is ULTRA skilled, both athletically and basketball wise. If we get the first pick and trade it/him for AD I will be done with this “franchise”.

Zion went down with a ridiculously low dribble zigzagging between two guys and layed it in.

He was dribbling with his off hand too.

Thanks much for this. I had never clicked through to the “About BPM” link.

This should be good enough for KB purposes:

https://www.basketball-reference.com/about/bpm.html

— another grateful lurker.

How many people would do a package right now based around Mitch and our 14% chance at Zion for AD?

Pels wouldn’t entertain that trade.. they want the actual Zion, Mitch and picks plus smith etc

I get that Zion’s game may not translate all that well to the NBA. He doesn’t have an outside shot. An injury might completely wreck him relative to other players with, I don’t know, a broader skill set.

But I just kind of think the small ball NBA isn’t ready for something like Zion. In a league with fewer and fewer legitimate defensive bigs, I don’t really see him having much trouble getting to the hoop 20 times per game.

I don’t think trading all our draft picks and Mitch is the way to go, as good as AD unquestionably is. I prefer a slow rebuild.

I can’t believe we got two scoundrel for willy and not an offer fir vonleh . Are we over valuing our players?

While we’re talking about Phil Jackson, I was just looking at the list of the 25 highest paid players in the NBA this season. Carmelo Anthony is 15th! Phil Jackson gave him a $28M guarantee for his age-34 season. Holy shit that guy was so fucking dumb it boggles the mind.

@56
Yea but vonleh is better and can contribute in the post season on a min contract. That’s the ideal rental.

While we’re talking about Phil Jackson, I was just looking at the list of the 25 highest paid players in the NBA this season. Carmelo Anthony is 15th! Phil Jackson gave him a $28M guarantee for his age-34 season. Holy shit that guy was so fucking dumb it boggles the mind.

As I said in yesterday’s thread, not only did Phil fuck up in his moves as a GM, but he actually did the opposite of what he was supposed to do in terms of attracting free agents. No one wanted to come to the Knicks and play the stupid triangle and deal with a GM who seemed to be barely interested in his job.

Two scoundrels would’ve been a much better return for Willy than what we actually got

I’d probably trade Mitch and 14% chance at Zion plus the mavs picks fir ad right now.

I don’t think they would though.and like you said having ad probably takes us out of the top three so there’s no way that an ad trade happens today. Nor would I do that trade if we landed Zion.

Yeah, there’s also the fact that Davis probably turns this core into a 30-win team instead of a 15-win team, so the #1 becomes far less valuable. So it’s not going to happen, full stop.

Yeah, there’s also the fact that Davis probably turns this core into a 30-win team instead of a 15-win team, so the #1 becomes far less valuable

That’s the real point. I guess.

If NO didn’t want our “deal centered around KP”, then i don’t think they are interested in only the pick and mitch. I find it hard to believe we didn’t offer kp and the pick.

Getting AD cost controlled for a bit would definitely be worth it. If we did, our chances of signing other guys goes up significantly and we can probably find a way to fit 3 stars in before extending him. That’s worth it to me basketball-wise. Fan-wise, I’d love to see Robinson and a bunch of young guys.

Cost for the trade would probably be Mitchell Robinson, 2-3 1st rounders, DSJr., plus whatever young flotsam interests the Pels.

If NO didn’t want our “deal centered around KP”, then i don’t think they are interested in only the pick and mitch. I find it hard to believe we didn’t offer kp and the pick.

In addition to what Farfa stated, Mitch and the pick is arguably a greater offer than KP and the pick.

I don’t know what Dell Demps thinks, but I know if Knickerblogger did a trade value column, Mitch on his contract would definitely rank higher than KP on a max.

But the scenario is totally different. KP allegedly didn’t want to sign an extension there, so it was a risk. If they take Mitch, Knox, another youngster and the 1st they’ll have all those players under control for at least three more years.

That, though, is where I part ways with the “Extending KP at the max would be a disaster” crowd in that while I totally agree that a max is too much for KP, the NBA as a whole seems to disagree. In other words, if the Knicks had “disastrously” locked KP in for the max rookie extension before the season (which would have made no sense because of the whole cap space issue, but I’m just talking hypotheticals here), then they would likely have AD on the team now in exchange for KP and the pick. In other words, KP at the rookie max would be one of the most valuable trade assets in the NBA. It probably shouldn’t be, but it is. KP with the (admittedly very good for most teams) chance to get him to sign the rookie max was a valuable asset, ya know? An actual locked in KP would be even more so.

I don’t know how many franchises would test the waters on giving up assets for a guy who’d be disgruntled on day one. He clearly didn’t want to play for the Pels, so why would they give up anything of value for him? He knew he could get a max contract out of 20+ franchises. Any team that traded for him without a max commitment would find themselves losing him to a QO and the consequent UFA, right?

Right, which is why an actual locked in KP would be more valuable. I’m saying that an “overpaid” KP is still a tremendously valuable trade asset, because the league is dumb.

What’s a reasonable trade?

I’d rank the odds of those things happening as:

1. Two max players
2. Trade for AD
3. Winning lottery

That, though, is where I part ways with the “Extending KP at the max would be a disaster” crowd in that while I totally agree that a max is too much for KP, the NBA as a whole seems to disagree.

The NBA was largely on board with maxing Melo, too.

I don’t think KP on a max would be a disaster. It would just be suboptimal and dependent on many other factors.

KP making $30mm over 4 years (i.e. the matched max) with Zion making $9.25 and Mitch making $1.5, for instance, could have been fine.

The Pelicans cant be this dumb. The Lakers offer is the best offer they will ever get. Ainge is trying to con them by dangling Tatum, when he is not going to trade him. Knicks by chance get Zion, how is Zion plus filler better than what the Lakers offered?

Zion is better than everyone the Lakers offered.

Ainge is a cagey guy, but the odds are that if he actually promises them Tatum in July, he will likely give them Tatum in July. These GMs tend not to break promises with other GMs. They rely on trust with other GMs to do business.

Right, which is why an actual locked in KP would be more valuable. I’m saying that an “overpaid” KP is still a tremendously valuable trade asset, because the league is dumb.

Had never thought of this and am persuaded by your hypothetical, but would you agree that “actual locked in KP” is probably only more valuable in this limbo state, i.e. until he gets back on the court?

I’m guessing KP will not look like a max player on the court (proving most on this board correct), and his current perceived value around the league will wane quickly.

If KP doesn’t go far beyond what he already is, a 5/$156M deal for him is going to be a catastrophe. The reason the trade so much sense was specifically because we didn’t have a bird in the hand. Besides, with KP at his max getting the other two stars we need in your formula would’ve been near impossible.

You are “asserting” this because you believe your favorite box score metrics accurately reflect his on court value. I fully understand that those stats suggest paying him the max would be a mistake.

I am asserting that those are the same boxscore stats that said Kanter was a star player (as some here believed at the time we made that trade) and those stats are just as laughably and ridiculously wrong about KP in the opposite direction.

Stats matter.

The public models that try to aggregate boxscore metrics into a single number that measures value correctly are sometimes GARBAGE.

I’m not arguing that KP is a superstar. I’m arguing that he’s a significant plus player on defense and already has the skillset to be a significant plus player on offense with better coaching and better use of his skills. That’s a max player even if it’s not a superstar.

There are are some incompetent owners, presidents, GMs and coaches in the league. However, sometimes it pays to wonder why dozens of people see value in a player (including the best and brightest) that you don’t (and vice versa as our experience with Kanter obviously shows now).

Sometime the consensus is wrong. But sometimes your own way of measuring and thinking about value based on some public web page may be wrong.

This should be good enough for KB purposes:

https://www.basketball-reference.com/about/bpm.html

Great thanks. I’ll start there.

I’d happily be a ranch hand for Phil in Montana for KP’s QO. What is that, $4.5 million? Yeah, hire me, Phil!
🙂

Ainge is a cagey guy, but the odds are that if he actually promises them Tatum in July, he will likely give them Tatum in July. These GMs tend not to break promises with other GMs. They rely on trust with other GMs to do business.

Which is probably why the reports that he won’t do that are true. His promise seems to be “one way or another, I will top that Lakers offer, but I can’t include specific players now.”

KP is:
1. Injury prone
2. Fatigue prone
3. Not really all that productive

He needs to overcome all three of those problems to be worth a max contract. It’s a bad bet in my opinion. He has played in 186 of a possible 328 games on his first contract, that’s 56% of all games, and he has not cracked a .550 TS% in a league where the average TS% is .558.

I’m sleeping pretty well at night knowing he was moved for two 1RPs and the privilege to not pay him $156M.

pretty strong move for the bucks at almost no cost

Going from memory here, not doing a side-by-side, but Mirotic for virtually nothing seems better than paying an arm and a leg for Tobias Harris.

Amazing move for the Bucks, Mirotic fits their team and style perfectly and is actually very good, he seems like a perfect fit for a team that wants to shoot 3s and create spacing for Giannis. Really really solid.

I think Tobias Harris is a much better player than Mirotic, but yeah, getting Mirotic for a bunch of seconds is an insanely good return for Milwaukee.

Good trade for the Bucks, for sure. Jason Smith is irrelevant and Stanley Johnson is a trashcan on offense. Mirotic will help their 3PT shooting, which is just about the only average part of that team. Takes some minutes from Ilyasova, which will be a boon for their offense. Plus he’s expiring so he’s a rental for what looks like a Finals run.

He has played in 186 of a possible 328 games on his first contract, that’s 56% of all games, and he has not cracked a .550 TS% in a league where the average TS% is .558.

He’s also OBVIOUSLY a big plus as a help and paint defender that could easily raise his TS% if he had a coach that told him increase his 3 point shots and also ran some plays for him at the rim (actually any play would help given how much ISO he did last year).

If you want to bash Phil, that’s a legitimate complaint. Right or wrong, Phil still believes there’s value in “good” mid range shots because if you do it the right way you get more offensive rebounds. If net extra free throws and possessions it’s comparable to taking more 3s at a TEAM LEVEL. However, the individual taking the extra mid range shots will have a lower TS% (and Kanter gets an extra OREB here or there and puts it back up).

I’m not sure anyone has the math on this right. They all look at aggregate stats from every team and all sorts of locations (which is ridiculously wrong). There is a strategy to it that’s team specific. You’d have to look at how well Phil Jackson teams do with OREBs compared to others and control for lots of other things.

@104

Nice spin. lmao

Phil started the year “hopeful” that getting rid of all the trash personalities and players that wanted out would leave him with a competitive team (he got rid Felton, JR, Shumpert, and Chandler). He was wrong. However, once it was clear it wouldn’t he blew the team up and tanked because we had a 1st round draft pick that year. He landed KP. That’s the start of our current rebuild.

You can disagree with his approach from there (which was to try to use draft picks, trades, and free agency instead of just draft picks), but it’s easy to see why he tried to use all avenues because we didn’t have a 1st round pick the next year either.

The rebuild starts when you land your first high lottery pick no matter how and why you got there or how badly multiple management teams screwed up after that.

Wait, don’t we know that NO explicitly rejected a KP-based offer?

To paraphrase Eli Cash, “Well, everyone knows the Knicks passed on extending Kristaps Porzingis so they could take advantage of his $17mm cap hold and sign free agents. What Brian’s post presupposes is, what if they didn’t?”

Wait, four second round picks? That is actually a nice haul for a rental.

We can’t get one for Kanter or Jordan??

The guy was as interested in a rebuild as I am in 17th century Russian literature.

Fun fact: there is virtually no 17th century Russian literature. The Cossacks did not breed many authors.

Amazing that NiK Stauskas has lived in 4 different cities this week already, and will probably be in Beijing by Saturday.

Wait, four second round picks? That is actually a nice haul for a rental.

Ok so one has virtually no value (Denver’s 2019), one probably won’t have value (Milwaukee’s 2020), but two are excellent (Washington’s 2020 and 2021).

That would seem to indicate there’s a good market for Vonleh.

We gotta get something for Vonleh. That’s the minimum.

The rebuild starts when you land your first high lottery pick no matter how and why you got there or how badly multiple management teams screwed up after that.

This is good work. From redefining basic concepts to tenuous blame-shifting I really appreciate the effort you’re putting in to improve your efficiency. All it needs is a spurious analogy, some unrelated jargon, and some pleading about how the eye-test is the most important thing because perfect knowledge is impossible and you’d have your ideal post.

Oh! Also an appeal to authority in the face of all evidence. So still some work to do.

Wow, Toronto getting Marc Gasol. They’re going all in this year, which they have to given that they may only be renting Kawhi.

I love Marc Gasol, but I don’t know that Toronto improves themselves that much with Gasol and they gave up a lot to get him.

I love Marc Gasol, but I don’t know that Toronto improves themselves that much with Gasol and they gave up a lot to get him.

What did they give up, thought no one broke that part yet.

I don’t understand this buyout business. These players have to give up money to be bought out, right?

It’s usually barely anything.

What did they give up, thought no one broke that part yet.

Jonas Valanciunas, Delon Wright, CJ Milles and a 2024 second-round pick.

Wright seems like a lot to me to give up to upgrade from JV to Gasol.

Does the Avery Bradley trade by the Clippers affect their cap space in any notable way?

Well, we’re going to find out about all of those “coulds” and “ifs,” aren’t we?

We will, including the very real injury risk (something I argued was true and got criticized for before he even got hurt).

I do have to add one thing. If you are evaluating him with a broken model now and you are evaluate him with a broken model later, you’ll still be wrong.

That was a point I used to make to the Wins Produced crew.

They’d say “so and so” was a great college prospect because he scored highly on their model (no doubt he couldn’t shoot a lick but took advantage of an occasional dunk and could rebound like crazy). Then when he couldn’t make it off the bench in the pros and was soon out of the league they’d argue they were right because he still scored highly on their broken model. Rather than admit their model was flawed it was that every coach that had him (including coach of the year winners and candidates) was an idiot that didn’t recognize his value.

@ 127

The Memphis Grizzlies are finalizing a trade to send center Marc Gasol to the Toronto Raptors, league sources tell ESPN’s Adrian Wojnarowski. Toronto is planning to send Jonas Valanciunas, Delon Wright, CJ Milles and a 2024 second-round pick to the the Grizzlies

Then why would a $4 billion team like us be expected to do it? Good will? Roster spots? Fuck that.

Yeah, good will basically. They don’t want Kanter. They don’t gain a benefit from his Bird Rights. So they might as well let him play somewhere else. Same with Matthews.

think we’d have to do Mitch, Zion, and 2 or 3 1RPs to beat that.

I don’t mean to shout, but this is the second time I’ve had to say this:

THERE IS NO “ZION AND ANYTHING” FOR DAVIS!!!!

I’ll go one step further: If we had Zion, I’d want AD and picks to trade Zion.

Not that the players that they are giving up are some amazing players, but the idea of the Rockets, who are presumably legit title contenders this year, dealing away decent back of the rotation guys to get under the luxury tax is gross.

Besides buying somone out opens a roster spot

I’m not using any “model” to evaluate KP, I’m using common sense. He scores at below average efficiency, rebounds poorly, hasn’t stayed healthy, has had fatigue issues and has not developed much season to season. He is a very good rim protector and overall defender.

Might he fix all of his issues? Perhaps. But he has to improve AND stay healthy to be worth the contract he’s gonna get. I stand by the evaluation that KP’s perceived value was higher than his actual value, and that the trade made sense.

Besides buying somone out opens a roster spot

We have ten wins. We can find a roster spot without helping a rival if we need to. Here, have a Hezonja.

The rebuild begins after the “win now” team you assembled three months ago starts out 8-42

Are you arguing that Phil made some bad mistakes?

We already agree on that.

I’m arguing that we are 4 years into the rebuild and this management team was handed a team that won 31 games, KP, Willy, Frank, Dotson, Kornet, and 20 million of cap space (even though it was missing 2 first round picks in the prior 4 years) and in 2 years turned it into the worst team in the NBA, no KP, no Willy, and a prayer that they can convince a temperamental 30 year old superstar (31 by the start of next season) to leave one of the best teams in NBA history to join one of the worst teams in NBA history.

I get all the Phil criticisms. Many are valid and a few I disagree with.

However, for the life of me I don’t how current management gets a pass. They brought in some of the worst players in the NBA thinking they were actually good and drafted a player that is probably a couple of years away from being a legitimate rotation player and at worst a two-way bust. They’ve been terrible. Even if they get lucky in free agency they’ve been terrible.

I should try a little experiment. I’ll sing their praises every day for a month and I bet by the end of it everyone here hates their guts because I like them. 🙂

tell me the fucking lakers didn’t give away zubac so they can sign melo

Another really nice move by the Clippers. Zubac can play and since he costs nothing, he doesn’t affect their cap space really.

He scores at below average efficiency, rebounds poorly, hasn’t stayed healthy, has had fatigue issues and has not developed much season to season.

We agree on the heath risks.

I think his defense is underrated in the overall package, his rebounding is partly a function of playing on the perimeter instead inside and partly his very weak body (same with Robinson now), his efficiency is partly a function of system/role and coaching, and his ability to bring big men out on the perimeter is not being considered at all.

Other people are looking at past data.

I am asking why the data is what it is, what can be changed, can it be changed easily, what are people missing etc.. I see more value than the consensus here. The only thing I fully agree on is the injury and health risks.

Wow, I haven’t see a lot of Zubac but the little I did see made me think he was pretty good piece. I’m going to guess Magic has seized control from Pelinka. lol

Wow, the Fultz era is over! Fultz to Orlando! That’s super harsh.

The report was that they would have accepted it had it not been for the uncertainty over KP. They didn’t want to trade AD for more uncertainty. A signed KP is essentially exactly what they’re looking for for AD (they really don’t want to completely rebuild, which is why Tatum is the Godfather offer in their minds).

I didn’t see anything indicating they would have accepted KP if he was already signed (I still find that very hard to believe because there’s effectively no difference), but it’s also far from clear that this theoretical trade would’ve been a good idea for us anyway.

Wow, the Fultz era is over! Fultz to Orlando!

wowwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww

I swear to god if the Sixers get the 2019 1st unprotected, and they get Zion… I don’t even know what I’ll do.

I’ll… I’ll… become a Sixers fan

edit: it’s the Thunder first in 2020, protected 1-20, conveys as 2022 and 2023 2RPs if Thunder keep it

I never said what is written above

That is a TERRIBLE haul for a #1 overall pick. What the fuck?

I didn’t see anything indicating they would have accepted KP if he was already signed (I still find that very hard to believe because there’s effectively no difference), but it’s also far from clear that this theoretical trade would’ve been a good idea for us anyway.

They’re in the midst of trading their star player because he won’t stay there, so it doesn’t make sense to acquire a guy who can technically leave in a year himself. Now, if he’s locked in for five years, it’s a different story.

Knicks officially buying Matthews out. The Pacers are the frontrunners to sign him? Huh?

FIVE MORE MINUTES!!!!!!!

Good trade for the Sixers. Simmons can pitch in right now and they get a low 1st to boot. I think it’s a fair risk for Orlando too. They can wait on Fultz.

Ok the Magic pick is OKC’s 2020 pick apparently with protections.

I seriously thought they gave PHI a 10% chance at Zion and I almost died

FIVE MORE MINUTES!!!!!!!

Usually, trades still pop up up to a half hour past the deadline.

I would have thought that the Matthews buyout market would have involved teams like the Sixers and the Rockets. The Pacers seem like such an odd choice for him.

@178 No. Fultz is a total non-starter for me, esp at $10 million per next year.

At least we can keep the dream alive for KD and Irving signing here and then trading for AD!

@167

I agree that NO was not going to take KP unless he was 100% signed and happy to be there. But I’m not sure it makes sense to argue that had they extended KP they could have traded him there. Their whole strategy was to ADD at least one star free agent to KP depending on what it would take to move Lee and/or Hardaway. They had no intention of trading him. Anything that even hints at that is bullshit. What happened is that they put together a team that sucked even worse than last year (not intentionally), KP got salty again over that (and probably yet to be disclosed dysfunction), and they realized they were at risk and had to move him now to get a decent return.

What we should be asking is how it came to this so we make sure it never happens again.

The answer is that in this environment very good players want to win and if you don’t make progress you risk losing them.

Did we fuck up the basic shit again?

Seems like it.

But don’t worry. I’m sure a team that fucks up all the basic shit was able to secretly put together an extremely complicated under the table deal for one of the league’s best players.

So basically:

– Raps, Bucks, and Sixers make big moves to try and grab the East crown THIS year.

– Celts and Lakers now have a bunch of sour players, which I love.

– And we keep cruisin’ toward Zion, mon.

They’re in the midst of trading their star player because he won’t stay there, so it doesn’t make sense to acquire a guy who can technically leave in a year himself. Now, if he’s locked in for five years, it’s a different story.

But as you said, the difference is only technical. Most people seem to think KP, coming off a season in which he didn’t play a game despite the fact that the normal timetable would’ve enabled him to, is taking the damn money. I guess they could be worried about him signing a 2 + 1 or something, but like I said I’d be interested to see anything that indicates this was actually the difference.

But don’t worry. I’m sure a team that fucks up all the basic shit was able to secretly put together an extremely complicated under the table deal for one of the league’s best players.

I’m not necessarily disagreeing with your shade there, but weren’t you the biggest supporter of “they’re getting KD” early this year?

What happened is that they put together a team that sucked even worse than last year (not intentionally), KP got salty again over that (and probably yet to be disclosed dysfunction), and they realized they were at risk and had to move him now to get a decent return.

I’ve criticized this front office for plenty of things, but every statement they put out this summer screamed “WE ARE TANKING.” The real indications of trying to be a playoff team are things like signing players to 4/$72M deals.

What we should be asking is how it came to this so we make sure it never happens again.

I hope we continue to trade overrated players for multiple first round picks.

@190 but now that the Sixers are all in, having $10 mill of dead weight on the cap is not good. You almost have to treat him like an overpaid vet (e.g. Lance Thomas) and get whatever you can get for him. His 1st pick aura is long gone.

I’m not necessarily disagreeing with your shade there, but just noting that weren’t you the biggest supporter of “they’re getting KD” early this year?

A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.

I kid, of course. I’m not out on Durant to NY. But I always let new evidence alter my belief if it’s compelling.

My optimism surrounding Durant earlier in the season was based on the premise that I didn’t know if Perry and Mills were bad yet. I suppose I still don’t. But watching a pro like West play his cards masterfully while we, once again, sat on expiring assets is discouraging.

And I don’t agree that it wasn’t due to lack of trying. Decent players on expiring contracts were bringing in HAULS. Harris netted a superstar return. Mirotic netted an incredible 4 second round picks. I just don’t belief that Vonleh (and maybe even Mudiay) couldn’t have gotten us anything.

I’ve criticized this front office for plenty of things, but every statement they put out this summer screamed “WE ARE TANKING.” The real indications of trying to be a playoff team are things like signing players to 4/$72M deals.

Every statement they put out was that they were trying to win games while developing young players. In fact, Fizdale said as much AGAIN in the last week. They started out trying to win games and instill a winning culture. They did not expect to make the playoffs,but they were hoping to and expecting to win games. They failed because some of the players they let go or traded were decent/good and every player they brought in sucks other than Vonleh (he is at least useful). So they were horrible. It’s simple. It doesn’t have to be about Phil. He’s gone. These guys SUCK SUCK SUCK at evaluating basketball productivity.

I hope they sign Anthony Bennett with one of their open roster spots.

Ooooo…Robin Lopez is going to get bought out. He’d be a great fit on a lot of playoff contenders. Where do you think he would fit best?

I keep refreshing Woj’s twitter page, hoping to see we did the right thing.

That’s fair. I’m not sure what their cap situation is with Harris and Butler, except that they will be easily in the luxury tax realm shortly. I assume they’ll give a max to Butler, but does that mean they have no space for Harris?

It doesn’t affect their ability to re-sign both guys, but it does help with the luxury tax payments and I believe it can also make it so that if Butler leaves, they can sign one more max guy while using Harris’ $22 million cap hold.

I just don’t belief that Vonleh (and maybe even Mudiay) couldn’t have gotten us anything.

I’d bet anything that Vonleh would net a 2nd rounder.

I’d take even money and say he’d net two 2nd rounders.

If I had to speculate, I’d guess they were asking for a 1st and decided if they don’t get that they’d stay with him. If they strike out on Durant they are going to have to use that cap space on someone. Walsh learned that lesson. Phil learned that lesson. There’s a good chance so will Perry. Better to give a fair amount to Vonleh than an unfair amount to Kemba or someone like that to save face.

Kanter and Wes officially bought out

I mean dude, all of those guys are waaaaaaaay better than any of our garage sale guys.

You’re telling me one of these guys is worth four second round picks and the other isn’t worth one? I don’t believe you.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1_hint=Noah+Vonleh&player_id1_select=Noah+Vonleh&player_id1=vonleno01&y1=2019&player_id2_hint=Nikola+Mirotic&player_id2_select=Nikola+Mirotic&y2=2019&player_id2=mirotni01&idx=players

I’d bet anything that Vonleh would net a 2nd rounder.

Why? I like him but he’s been uneven this year and there’s several years evidence of him not being worth very much. Why would a contender take a chance on a rental like Vonleh when there are consistently average players available? We’re overrating our own players, as per normal.

So Kanter and Wes are gone, now to try to find some talent in the G-League. It’s sad that they apparently had not much value in trades but it was to be expected, everyone knew the Knicks didn’t want those guys, so why would anyone give us anything for them.

Anthony Bennett! Come on!

You’re telling me one of these guys is worth four second round picks and the other isn’t worth one? I don’t believe you.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1_hint=Noah+Vonleh&player_id1_select=Noah+Vonleh&player_id1=vonleno01&y1=2019&player_id2_hint=Nikola+Mirotic&player_id2_select=Nikola+Mirotic&y2=2019&player_id2=mirotni01&idx=players

This comparison is extremely favorable to Mirotic, especially when you take into account the specific type of production teams are looking for (volume 3PT shooting).

Dude, just the other day Fizdale was almost apologetic about how bad the team is. They knew they were bad, but they didn’t bring in Mudiay, Hezonja, Burke, and Vonleh to lose more games. They didn’t draft Knox to get worse. They brought them in because they thought they were better players than Hernangomez, O’Quinn, McDermott, Mikal Bridges, and any other players they could have taken a look at. They were trying to get both younger and better knowing full well they were getting a lottery pick, but they SUCK at the getting better part

Would you have signed Doug McDerm–ah fuck it we know how this goes

He has very, very little value to us but I would take the EB rights possibility over a 2025 2RP.

Yeah, it’s extremely little value either way (a 2025 second rounder or the ability to give him EB rights if he takes the room for a year), but I like the latter better, too.

Mike Conley is still owed 66m after this season- how on earth did Memphis not move him when they had the opportunity to do so? Per Woj they wanted to keep him as a mentor for JJJ- 66m for a mentor?? I guess DJ will know what to ask the Knicks for in the off-season.

Would you have signed Doug McDerm–ah fuck it we know how this goes

I say this with affection. Wake up from your slumber.

It doesn’t matter. They got McDermott in a trade. He has a useful skill or two. If you are going to move on from McDermott because he doesn’t fit or you think the price is too high, he should be replaced by someone that is better or that fits better. If you go backwards, you F’d up. Every move they’ve made has been a backwards move. Notice how every move Jerry West makes either makes the team better or dramatically improves it’s position. That’s the goal. GETTING BETTER! West will screw one or two up eventually as the resident geniuses in Houston and Miami have. But they are trying to get BETTER. Tanking is a one year event.

It’s not 4 times more favorable. Teams like defense and rebounding, too. Bagley reported that Denver and a host of other teams expressed interest. I don’t believe none of them offered something.

Vonleh only has half a season of good play. I think it is for real, but I understand why teams would go for the known commodity, which is also a better fit.

It is possible that Vonleh is one clause in the “Strike Out on FAs This Summer” insurance policy.

I say this with affection. Wake up from your slumber.

It doesn’t matter. They got McDermott in a trade. He has a useful skill or two. If you are going to move on from McDermott because he doesn’t fit or you think the price is too high, he should be replaced by someone that is better or that fits better. If you go backwards, you F’d up. Every move they’ve made has been a backwards move. Notice how every move Jerry West makes either makes the team better or dramatically improves it’s position. That’s the goal. GETTING BETTER! West will screw one or two up eventually as the resident geniuses in Houston and Miami have. But they are trying to get BETTER. Tanking is a one year event.

Do you know what the win curve is?

I’m actually kind of happy that there were no more trades. All joking aside, the guys being bought out just weren’t going to bring anything.

I wonder, if they hang on to Mudiay, what do they to with him when he comes back? Surely they are moving Frank to wing for the rest of the year, but DSJ vs. Mudiay could become a mini-drama, depending upon who Fiz starts and who gets the most minutes…

it’s funny – you read through 200 plus comments, and, one will just stick out…

Being shitty isn’t the same as rebuilding.

in this case – the truth and pain are just tied together too tightly…

Tanking is a one year event? Would Philly agree with that?

Vonleh has -2.8 BPM for his career, while Mirotic has 0.8 (positive) in his career. It is fair to assume sample sizes are at play here.

Career numbers didn’t seem to stop Jerry West from getting a haul for Tobias Harris that would make a superstar blush.

Look, it was a seller’s market. If you sold, you did well. We had something to sell, we didn’t.

I do not believe for a second that no one would have bought Vonleh when the alternative explanation is “the Knicks fucked it up and think this is going to help them re-sign him”.

I think that the vast majority here at KB were not hankering for an AD trade. The conversation was more about what we could live with giving up. He is a true max player in terms of production and might have lured others to join him. But the love affair for Mitch and the excitement about albeit a 14% chance for Zion are very real and knowing that hitting the lottery would fast-track us to better possibilities this summer is a risk most of us are willing to take.

But since we don’t control anything, most of the talk was “well, if we give up this much, we could still…” knowing full well that the Pels would never go for a anything less than the mother lode.

Unlike Melo, AD is very truly a great player. But if we shot our wad on AD in a Melo-like trade, and then he blows out his knee, achilles, or back, it’s curtains on this franchise for another 5 years. So yeah, I’m glad that we didn’t offer the kitchen sink for him, like previous regimes almost certainly would have.

Now the pressure is definitely on to hit on our draft pick, Zion or not.

I am a fan of the advanced stats myself, but you’re missing the picture if you’re using them to gauge trade value alone.

I would take a wild guess that most front offices either don’t know about it couldn’t care less about VORP, BPM and etc, and that player reputation is a lot more important to their decision making than those are.

Mirotic had scored a lot of points, he’s been talked as a good player for a while, he’s seen as someone valuable who was a strong contributor to the Pelicans in the playoffs. Vonleh is a reclamation project that people still see as a failure, playing well on a garbage 10 win team that nobody watches. It makes a lot of difference.

As much as I think advanced stats are better than reputation based claims to evaluate players, it is not the way front offices work at all, even the smartest of them.

I think the Mirotic trade was about a certain player filling a particular niche at the right time for a serious contender. It’s hard to quantify an abstract value for those situations that can be applied across the board for Player X that scenario vs. Player Y in another scenario. You certainly shouldn’t be expecting to apply a general metric as a means of relating it to what someone like Vonleh would fetch out there. Look at KP. You think the Mavericks gave a shit about his VORP, WS/48, BMP, etc. when they trade to get him from us? I don’t. I genuinely believe that trade came down to Cuban’s fetish for a Dirk 2.0 and Carlisle’s wet dreams for a Luka-Unicorn pick n pop.

ALSO, are we in favor of-
unprotected pick to AD
Zion to AD?

I dont know but for me id rather keep the pick for whoever it is and for the first time since Ewing, try to build it right.

I know AD is still young but who knows he can be Penny, Grant Hill or Amare or a Mcdyess.
Maybe i will only do that if it is KD and AD guaranteed or Kawhi plus KD or AD.
Not sure though. If Orlando can get a tmac and hill. I hope we can get KD plus one. Or Kawhi plus one. Not high on Kyrie and cousins and walker.

There’s no benefit to the Knicks for keeping Vonleh. We shouldn’t want to resign him, which we can just do next year anyhow if we traded him. If you can get something for nothing you should do it, because it’s better than nothing.

If they re-sign him to the room, they can get his Early Bird rights the following year. They would lose that option if they traded him. It’s a minor benefit, but so is a distant second round pick from a good team.

I wouldn’t trade both Mitch and the 2019 pick together for AD.

Nor would I. And I think AD is a top 5 player, with (if he can shake the injury bug) the possibility of being top 50 all-time. But trading both Mitch and the pick would leave us with nothing.

I would have traded the pick today, without Mitch, if only because it’s a 14% chance at a franchise savior. Yes, some other top players could be good, but only Zion really screams Franchise. Since we didn’t trade it, now I would keep it if it was definitely #1, because Zion + Mitch = huge opportunity to build a dynasty.

If it isn’t #1, I’d put it back on the market, again without Mitch, in the summer. NO won’t want to make any deal with LA, so it would be our pick + DSjr + whatever other than Mitch against Tatum and the Boston picks. With AD not certain to resign with Boston, that might get it done.

I am not sure people understand how valuable Mitch is. I mean, many here do, but he is a far better asset than KP, not because he’s necessarily going to be better (though it’s possible), but because he’s already good, and cost-controlled for 3 MORE YEARS. That’s how you can build greatness – with those kinds of deals. We can’t trade him, even for AD…unless we get Zion, and trade Mitch and NOT Zion for AD. But Mitch is a second-round pick, and won’t be valued appropriately, so that would never happen.

The way a player derives his BPM/WS48 etc. obviously matters a lot.

Vonleh derives his almost entirely through rebounding, which teams are largely punting on these days. We’ve talked about how there might even be a market inefficiency for guys like KOQ/Ed Davis/Vonleh for this reason. In this case we were the victims of that inefficiency.

Mirotic derives his almost entirely through high volume, high efficiency scoring with an emphasis on 3PT shooting. That’s all the rage these days. That’s why he’s worth so much more despite having similar box score aggregators to Vonleh.

And I think AD is a top 5 player

I should clarify that I mean over the next 3 years, when LeBron is old and as Durant begins to fade. I’d rate Steph, Giannis, and Kawhi ahead of him. Maybe Harden.

Jokic, George, and Embiid deserve notice, especially Jokic and Embiid, who should continue to grow and improve over the next few years. But I’d take AD over all of them.

The lack of interest in Vonleh makes me question the whole “reclamation project” strategy (also include Mudiay and Hezonga) We’ve always said on this site that best case for these guys is that they show improvement and we can trade them for maybe a few 2nd rounders. But obviously no one in the league sees any value in these guys.

So what exactly is the point again of signing draft busts?

It is truly a miracle that Frank is still on the team. Hopefully he shows some progress in the second half in the season.

There’s nowhere to go but up.

As to “miracle,” I think it’s more of a “non-event.” Frank would be a good second round pick, and that’s probably all we could have gotten for him. Better to keep him build up his value to “NBA scrub” and dangle him later.

Now if he improves significantly, THAT would be a miracle!

I’m not trying to say vonleh should have netted what mirotic did. I’m just saying every asset that was sold this week got a return that was much higher than expected. It was a seller’s market. It’s disingenuous to act like a distant 2nd round pick return was the likely return. He probably would have fetched at least a 2nd round pick this year. I don’t believe there was no interest in him, he could help a lot of teams. It’s much more likely this is exhibit Z in the Knicks failing to execute basic asset mgmt skills.

Having found myself in the odd position of defending the Knicks’ front office a lot in the last week or so, I should mention how ridiculous it is that just-waived Enes Kanter was a major factor in the decision to trade Willy Hernangomez. That is some really dumb shit right there

That’s a little unfair. It’s true it would have been cheaper to have Hernangomez and his lousy defense than to have Kanter and his lousy defense, but Kanter’s salary probably made him untradeable. He was also an expiring in a tanking year, which was a good thing, not a bad thing.

The end result is that we have Kornet, who is better than Willy, and Mitch, who is much better than Kanter, Kornet or Willy, at center. And we will have the cap space from Kanter’s expiring contract. I agree with Strat in not trusting Knick’s management’s trust in players, but as far as the center position goes, they are doing fine.

He can do all that if he netted a 2nd round pick for him, too.

That is theoretically possible, but in human terms, you really think that if some other team wanted a player enough to trade for him and the Knicks got rid of him, that it would be easy to just re-sign him? I know I wouldn’t want to move twice in the space of three months or so.

Vonleh is an averagish young player with some upside still left, but we’re on pace to win like 16 or 17 games. Why are we keeping him around to spend money on him next season?

Vonleh is an averagish young player with some upside still left, but we’re on pace to win like 16 or 17 games. Why are we keeping him around to spend money on him next season?

I mentioned this the other day; if we we’re successful in signing two worthy max players, we’re going to be desperate for production from, well, all of the other players. The market inefficiency for players like Vonleh would theoretically make him a good fit for such a team. Obviously a lot of somewhat unlikely things have to happen for this to be relevant, but the chance might be worth passing on a 2025 2RP.

@274 yeah but… what’s the connection to the Knicks?

“So what exactly is the point again of signing draft busts?”
To expedite the tank of course!

why would he come back?

Because you’re going to pay him money. He’s not going to play for the Knicks because he wants to win.

Well, the idea of getting draft busts is to have one of them at least become a really good player that you want to re-sign. While Vonleh is surely a decent player who’s having a good season, it’s not like he’s a sure thing that we definitely should re-sign. If you can get assets for those guys it’s obviously a good thing, but it’s not like giving Vonleh a chance has taken minutes from anyone else important or anything.

I don’t trust our front office and I do think a better one would have been able to find some deals at least, but it’s not like our players had any tangible value out there and they wasted it completely, it would have been mostly marginal 2nd rounders that you very often can just buy on draft day if you wish.

Trae Young is looking pretty decent these days. If you throw out the month (I know, I know) he shot under 30% from 3 he’s been good for a rookie PG on offense.

Jordan should have no bird rights attached to him at all, he went to Dallas as a free agent and then came to the Knicks. Early bird rights only kick in after two years, so he’s not eligible. Bird rights reset fully after a player moves teams as a free agent.

Not only do they have no rights with him, even if they did, they’d have to first factor in his $21 million cap hold before signing any other players in order to then use his bird rights. There’s no scenario where bringing Jordan back makes any sense, which is why it is scary that it sounds like they are going to try to bring Jordan back.

Yeah, I fully believe the FO’s intentions is simply to keep Jordan in the team to mentor Robinson, while soaking up the minutes that would have been available anyway with Kanter out of the picture, then maybe waive him at the last moment to allow him to go to a contender or something as a favor to him. Anyway he really shouldn’t be back if they’re serious about free agency.

Wow Ingram just shat the bed hard in the final 2 minutes : missed ft, missed 3-ball, fouled Kyrie, all in a row.

Lakers win on a Rondo jump shot. Classic. Tyson Chandler with the tipout of course.

I had immediate Tyson flashbacks, that was fun. The guy is out there contributing when he should be all but completely done.

cherry on top for the evening – boston drops to 4th…lots of games left, but, a 1st round matchup with boston losing (philly currently 5th) would be outstanding…

Mitch is a backup center for the worst team in the NBA how could he be good?

A lot of unexciting guys playing musical chairs over the past few days.

I like Gasol on the Raptors, though.

EC has gotten interesting (finally). It’s been too long to remember since the east had a fun and competitive playoffs. Toronto, Milwaukee, and Philadelphia are all well positioned to lose to the Warriors. Will be fun to watch. (I think Raptors Bucks could be a classic ECF).

we pointed out two times that teams traded a player and then re-signed him in the offseason in just the last three seasons (Devin Harris last year and one of the guys that the Hornets traded for Courtney Lee three years ago)

That could be but I would guess that the re-signed players were part of a bigger trade where they were included for salary matching purposes, and the receiving team wasn’t really interested in keeping them. That’s very different from trading Vonleh to a team that wants him and he is the only component of the trade.

Brian – Can we boot up a new thread? This one is getting looooong…….

Funny there’s no mention of Mitch. Even funnier is that he likes Knox’ floater.

Knox, DSJ, and Frank are not getting a trade done.

one of them is legitimately bad on both sides of the ball right now.
one of them is a negative on both side of the ball right now
one of them seems to have a top as a 3&D+playmaker if he ever learns to shoot.

If Robinson looks great going forward, with his contract, if you also throw him in and the 1st rounder that might get it done. But I’m wondering if Durant + Davis + a totally gutted team is a good formula when Durant will be 31 at the start of the next season.

Welp, next big date for this crap team is May 14th, lottery day. Zion is our only real hope.

can KP be this effin stupid?

He was probably poisoned on the Fizdale relationship before it began. Fizdale famously degraded European basketball in his feud with Marc Gasol. So KP probably viewed it through a prism impacted by that.

I think Fiz handled Kanter properly. But I can see how KP, if he was predisposed to thinking Fiz was anti-Euro, could see Fiz’ behavior as supporting his bias. Fairly or unfairly, Kanter, Hezonja, and Frank have been jerked around a lot this season while equally shitty players like Mudiay and Hardaway have had the constant, unwavering support of the coach.