Knicks Morning News (2018.12.21)

Re: Jabari Parker, I’d consider offering Lee, Hezonja, and top 1 protected swap rights on this year’s 1RP (that would turn into outright swap rights next year). For the price of taking on Lee’s contract next year, the Bulls increase their chances of getting a great pick unless we are in position to draft Zion. The Bulls are pretty bad, so it doesn’t hurt our chances too much as there probably isn’t much separating the 2nd-6th best prospects in this draft. If we end up 3rd and they end up 5th, for example, think I could live with that if it meant we weren’t paying Courtney Lee. I’d probably offer TH2 for Parker straight up, then offer TH2 and top 1 protected swap rights if they didn’t bite, and then finally Lee, Hezonja, and top 1 protected swap rights.

If we end up 3rd and they end up 5th, for example, think I could live with that if it meant we weren’t paying Courtney Lee.

You mean that you would agree to a Bol Bol + Courtney Lee for, I don’t know, Cam Reddish?

Cost opportunity, guys.

I don’t think it’s too bad a deal, but that all depends on how you tier the draft class. If we end up with the first pick, we land Zion Williamson. If we end up 2nd and they get the 4th pick, that’s the difference between RJ Barrett and Ja Morant. If we end up 5th and they end up 3rd, it’s a wash and we got out of Courtney Lee’s salary for swap rights that will likely be negligent next year. I’d push for Hardaway Jr’s contract to be included straight up, but I wouldn’t be afraid of offering swap rights to a fellow tanker as long as it doesn’t cost us Zion Williamson.

Yeah, no way. If you were talking of dumping THJ’s contract maybe I’d consider it but would still not do it.

I think at maximum (given Lee is still a useful player at an in-demand position) we would need to cough up a 2nd round pick to move him. No chance in the world I give swap rights when the draft class is so top heavy.

LOLKnicks will always be Dolan’s legacy. As soon as Dolan sells, the lulz will go by. Remember Donald Sterling?

I’m normally not very defensive of our shitty team but the narrative a lot of people are running with about this is silly and not supported by anything he said.

His words came, though, after his face made that intentionally goofy reaction. I agree that it doesn’t matter, but I think it is fair to say that he did betray a general “LOLKnicks” reaction when asked about them. Obviously the guy would end up thrilled if he was actually drafted by the Knicks, but I think it’s fair to say “Zion mocked the idea of being drafted by the Knicks” or whatever.

It’s a funny reaction and you can kind of read a lot of things into it. He closed like a pro and said the right things in the end though. I did feel he betrayed a somewhat charming naivete in that no matter who drafts him he is almost certainly going to be on a really shitty team

Re: Jabari Parker, I’d consider offering Lee, Hezonja, and top 1 protected swap rights on this year’s 1RP (that would turn into outright swap rights next year). For the price of taking on Lee’s contract next year

you take that shit back right now before the universe hears it

I hope they are trying like hell to move him out, but his foot problem makes that very difficult.

I think the odds are that they are not even seriously considering trading THJ.

There’s just not a market for Hardaway, I’m pretty sure of it. He has a player option and a 15% trade kicker, which means that no rebuilding team is touching him ever, and he’s not good enough for contenders to absorb the contract to try to improve now.

I knew this contract was stupid as soon as it was signed, and we’re going to be stuck with this shit until he expires. Thankfully it’s the only truly terrible contract yet on the team, so it’s manageable, but it’s still annoying.

So I went to the Garden last night and had an up close view of our hopeful savior.

A few thoughts:

– Yesterday I thought I would keep Zion in the hypothetical Zion or AD question, mostly because of the contract situation. Having seen Zion, I still love him but IMHO I would trade him for AD even in his more advanced contract stage. It’s no knock on Zion, I’m just not sure he’ll ever dominate the defensive end as much as AD does.

– I’m not sure it really matters because everything we know about the Knicks and the universe is pointing to the fact that RJ Barrett is going to be a Knick. This is like a “who did it” mystery in which the killer is literally holding a smoking gun in broad daylight.

– Zion really seems to fly. It’s unbelievable. I do hope we all have the opportunity to watch him do that all the time here.

There’s just not a market for Hardaway, I’m pretty sure of it. He has a player option and a 15% trade kicker, which means that no rebuilding team is touching him ever, and he’s not good enough for contenders to absorb the contract to try to improve now.

There is always a market, Bruno. You just have to be creative. What we don’t have is the will from management to undo their mistake. They might not even think they made a mistake!

Trade a top pick in this draft so we can sign Durant and immediately go into “win now” mode. No thank you.

I’m tired of star fucking. This has been a very enjoyable season for me as a fan even though we suck. PRobably the most fun I’ve had watching The Knicks since we won 54 games. I like the kids. I like watching them improve. I want to see how they play with KP once he’s back and gets healthy. I want to see this same team next year with a top pick and KP instead of Kanter.

Of course if we don’t land a FA, people will really be upset we stretched Noah but in my mind that had to be done bc of his potential negative influence on the team and no, we couldn’t have just let him stay home and collect a paycheck if he’s healthy. The player’s union would not stand for that.

It feels like we’re so far away but we might be closer to being good than we think. Let the kids grow and get better. Let KP come back and get healthy and resign him to a good deal. Find a trade for Lee if its available but don’t force the issue. For once, please, can we practice some patience.

I don’t care about championships. I mean, I do. I want one. But I just think we need to build a good, competitive team and once we get to that place, our options are going to look so much better. NYC and The Garden should be an advantage for us and it can be but we have to have a respectable and good team first otherwise the only way we get anyone to play here is by overpaying for their services.

Lee is an expiring next year, so getting off him only has value if we’re players in this year’s free agency class, which outside of Durant/Kawhi it’s not even clear we should want to be. Moving down in the first round now to set ourselves up better for an opportunity that very well may not come at all is not a good idea. If summer comes around and there’s still Durant buzz it might make sense to make some kind of preemptive move to open the space as gesture of commitment or whatever (apparently this was an issue during Lebron’s return to Cleveland for example), but there’s no reason to start down that road, and certainly not at the cost of a higher lottery pick.

I think the odds are that they are not even seriously considering trading THJ.

I agree, which is one of many reasons I’ve been critical of management.

If you want to be defensive, you can spin the Baker/THJ deals as being just Mills (like Mills still being there doesn’t matter smh), but it’s pretty clear to me that moving THJ now would be a net positive regardless of whether we used that extra space to sign a real star or added better value young players. That we are probably not even considering it means they either have no idea it’s a bad contract and that he’s not that good or they don’t want to embarrass themselves for having made the deal to begin with.

Yeah, there are two levels to the discussions here. One is what we hope and wish they are thinking, and the other is what they probably are.

We all hope that the rumored interest in Parker is to deal a Lee or THJ to get out of 1 or more years of a bad contract.

However, who knows, they might like Parker and want to “fix” him like they probably already think they’ve fixed Mudiay. They might dream at night of a Mudiay, THJ, Knox, Parker, KP starting five.

I’m bracing for a rumor that they offer Lee and Frank for Parker…

There’s always a market, true, but the sweeteners, good god, man, the sweeteners! 🙂

There are still NBA front offices who value points per game, I’m sure of it. Who was the guy we talked about recently that said he was strictly eye test? Call his team.

If guaranteeing yourself a top 5 pick is very important to you, then you don’t trade anything concerning your draft selection.

It’s not that guaranteeing a top 5 pick is important. It’s that every slot higher in the draft in the top 5 – 7 picks is pretty valuable, and as we saw last year even falling from 3 to 5 can be quite big. Getting a young, cost controlled future superstar is worth keeping a bad contract for an extra year easily. Lee should be moved for something less than that if Durant/Kyrie are set on coming here.

Of course if we don’t land a FA, people will really be upset we stretched Noah but in my mind that had to be done bc of his potential negative influence on the team and no, we couldn’t have just let him stay home and collect a paycheck if he’s healthy. The player’s union would not stand for that.

Except for every time the player’s union has stood for precisely that. If you don’t fuck with their money, the players union doesn’t give a shit. Hell, this is happening right now with Carmelo Anthony and no one is saying shit. The only time anyone ever said anything is when some team (the Celtics?) tried to do this and tried to dock the guy some of his pay. Then and only then did the union get involved.

There are still NBA front offices who value points per game, I’m sure of it. Who was the guy we talked about recently that said he was strictly eye test? Call his team.

our golden window to trade with the Suns was before we stretched Noah. just finish the trade call while their body man is standing in sky harbor airport, totally bewildered when the only giant human to walk off the plane from LGA strides right past him and his “welcome mr. Vonleh” sign.

I’m not a big fan of exiling players because you never know how it might impact agents and other players when it comes to future free agent or trade decisions. However, in the case of Noah, in light of what we know now on top of the Hornacek incident, he brought that all on himself. If we kept him buried, it probably wouldn’t have been the nicest thing to do to a player that had other options to play, but too bad. It’s business.

I don’t care about championships. I mean, I do. I want one. But I just think we need to build a good, competitive team and once we get to that place, our options are going to look so much better. NYC and The Garden should be an advantage for us and it can be but we have to have a respectable and good team first otherwise the only way we get anyone to play here is by overpaying for their services.

I actually agree with this. I would rather have an exciting, good young 45-50 win team like the Sixers to watch us build around for the next decade than a great but old team that would need to rebuild after 2-3 years. Of course I’d take either outcome over THJ contract type moves. 🙂

Noah still looks like he is absolutely cooked

Yes but there’s this recurring narrative that you can’t just alienate a player from your team because it would create bad blood with the player union. I don’t think it’s grounded that much in reality, but certainly there are some GMs who feel like they have to always be on the good side of the players, I guess.

our golden window to trade with the Suns was before we stretched Noah. just finish the trade call while their body man is standing in sky harbor airport, totally bewildered when the only giant human to walk off the plane from LGA strides right past him and his “welcome mr. Vonleh” sign.

Bravo

In light of what I know now, Noah probably doesn’t have much left.

It’s one thing to be a little older and have some injuries that are interfering with your productivity. Guys in their late 20s and early 30s can and do come back and regain productivity after some injuries and surgeries. Gasol looked like toast in LA due to knee & other issues but he came back with quite a few very productive years.

It’s another thing if you’ve also spent years drinking and probably doing worse.

I don’t know any athletes that achieved and more importantly sustained excellence when they were out partying, boozing, and getting high every night. It would not shock me if THAT was the real reason Chicago moved on from him.

All that said, the guy hasn’t played in forever, wasn’t part of camp, and is new to the team. If he was peak Noah, he’d be having a tough time right now. These games are a meaningless indication of what he has left. I’d give him another 15 games to get in game shape and then see how bad he is.

Who was the guy we talked about recently that said he was strictly eye test? Call his team.

No GM is strictly eye test, even if some of them value points more than we do. That quote just means he didn’t want to say exactly how his team chooses players or what specific stats are important to them. That’s reasonable since letting other teams know would be giving them competitively useful information. I can’t believe how seriously some people are taking that statement.

I can’t believe how seriously some people are taking that statement.

And I can’t believe that you dismiss the face value of a “no stats” statement by a man who gave Devin Booker a $158 million dollar contract to be the marquee player on a 8-24 team.

No GM is strictly eye test, even if some of them value points more than we do. That quote just means he didn’t want to say exactly how his team chooses players or what specific stats are important to them. That’s reasonable since letting other teams know would be giving them competitively useful information. I can’t believe how seriously some people are taking that statement.

You somehow extrapolated all of that from cgreene’s comment, which is where the quote is from?

I just chatted up James Jones who is now in the Suns FO in an elevator at my hotel in Portland. Asked him what stats he pays most attention to. Nada. All eye test. Nice guy though.

That’s…something.

The full quote about the GM was posted earlier, but I didn’t know where to find it and paste it, so I used Hubert’s post to cut and paste from instead. I think your second quote is where I first read about the GM’s statement. I apologize for any confusion.

Anyway, the fact that GM’s sometimes wildly overpay players doesn’t mean they didn’t use statistics, just that they didn’t look at the right ones, or they had a lot of optimism. Think about what you would do as a GM, would you want to give any hints to your competitors about what was important to you in evaluating players?

would you want to give any hints to your competitors about what was important to you in evaluating players?

Aren’t we talking about a random fan asking for a few important stats in an elevator and him saying he doesn’t use any? That doesn’t seem like a scenario where you have to worry about other teams getting a competitive advantage…

But it still seems to me a statement that is unlikely to be true, even for horrible GMs.

Dion Waiters has a $52M deal that expires in 2021.

i didn’t know this rule applied to players also:

The NBA bylaws governing players state: “Any Player who, directly or indirectly, entices, induces, persuades or attempts to entice, induce or persuade any Player, Coach, Trainer, General Manager, or any other person who is under contract to any other Member of the Association to enter into negotiations for or relating to his services shall, on being charged with such tampering, should be given an opportunity to answer to such charges after due notice and the Commissioner shall have the power to decide whether or not the charges have been sustained …”

this was in reference to some small market gm’s getting upset about lebron answering a reporter’s questions and saying it would be “amazing” and “incredible.” if AD went to the lakers…

Put that coffee down, Oakman. Coffee’s for closers.

IMO, the thing about “pointz” is that you absolutely do need a few guys that can create their own shot, put the ball in the basket in a variety of ways, and score. The problem is that while there are “some” players that can do that well (very from from all), only a handful can do it very efficiently. The difference in value between the first tier and 2nd tier is huge, but some GMs focus so much on the scoring instead of the efficiency, they overpay that 2nd tier looking for 2-3 players that can get them “pointz”. That’s been the problem in NY since forever.

It’s certainly not good news, but I think we’ll see him play in some games in March and then five of the six games in April (the only back-to-back is the final game of the season, so I’m sure he’ll skip that one).

But sure, it would definitely be very Knicksy to have to give a guy a max extension after he misses the entire season, so I can’t rule that out from happening.

swift the knicks could announce they were moving to pyongyang and you would cheer it as heralding a new era in international diplomacy and a golden opportunity to rebrand the triangle offense into the much more merchandisable ‘axis of evil’ and I admire you for it

i think seeing kp in a few games would be useful… he shouldnt come back until hes fully ready of course… but kp is still developing and he needs as much game time as he can handle… its useful for him and the team just to be involved in practices and the like…

I am so praying that Steve mills claiming he wouldn’t have signed Noah elicits a just-barely-intelligible emoji-employing hate tweet from phil.

I am so praying that Steve mills claiming he wouldn’t have signed Noah elicits a just-barely-intelligible emoji-employing hate tweet from phil.

Phil probably uses the same weed supplier as Noah and is too stoned to notice. 🙂

However, I wouldn’t be shocked if Clarence Gains throws a dart that way.

Pat Riley, Ernie Grunfeld, and the guys in Phoenix are probably the worst front office execs in charge of NBA teams at the moment. Steve Mills is terrible too but Scott Perry seems to be the de facto POBO so that’s all good and well.

Mills’ short run as POBO was legendarily terrible. He renounced Baker to have enough cap space to overpay TH2 and then gave Ron Baker the full MLE with a player option. The Ron Baker contract was the most hopeless I have ever been as a Knicks fan, and I’m glad that guy doesn’t call the shots anymore.

Pat Riley definitely doesn’t know what he’s doing, though. That’s been apparent ever since he gave big money to Kelly Olynyk and Dion Waiters.

I’m saying that next year, Pat Riley™ has earmarked a combined $133M for virtually the same team that is, this year, going 14-16 with the 23rd-best SRS in the league. If you think this means that he has some secret statistical 5D chess strategy, please, do tell what you think that entails.

I have no idea why you think I think that. I never said anything of the sort. Somehow you are either didn’t read what I said at all, or you are so egotistical you can’t conceive that any GM who actually looked at statistics wouldn’t draw exactly the same conclusions that you do. By that logic you seem to conclude that every bad deal in the league must have been made by a GM who only uses the eye test. I don’t care care if you think that, but don’t act as if I think it too, especially when I have written the contrary.

Suggesting that Pat Riley doesn’t know what he’s doing because he built a mediocre over the cap team this season (and next) isn’t very far from saying that Buford is an idiot because his team is not going to be much better than .500 in the near future.

That’s a ridiculous comparison. Buford acquired a perennial top-5 MVP candidate with the 15th pick in the draft, watched him suffer an uncommon and season-ending injury, and consequently lost him to circumstances that have literally nothing to do with his (/his FO team’s) ability to identify talent. The only unlucky break Riley has gotten was the Bosh condition, which only happened because he was stupid enough to give Bosh a max in the first place.

And as I’ve written before, it well may be that the Spurs’ advantage no longer exists, which would occur if just a handful — not even close to a majority — of the league’s 29 other teams picked up on what was making the Spurs so great at identifying and acquiring high-value contracts.

Game thread?

CRONIN!!!!!!

Just kidding, I will put up a thread….

That’s a ridiculous comparison. Buford acquired a perennial top-5 MVP candidate with the 15th pick in the draft, watched him suffer an uncommon and season-ending injury, and consequently lost him to circumstances that have literally nothing to do with his (/his FO team’s) ability to identify talent. The only unlucky break Riley has gotten was the Bosh condition, which only happened because he was stupid enough to give Bosh a max in the first place.

Morey also offered a max contract to Bosh too. I guess he only uses the eye test.

Pat Riley record as an executive is 498-336 (59%) and that includes two titles. My point is, both of them have a long and successful track record as a GM and I’m not sure if we should call Riley an idiot because he built mediocre capped out team in one season.

@85 Swin Cash is awesome