Knicks Morning News (2018.02.09)

Sole possession of 9th! In most drafts that’s nothing special, but there are some guys I really like in that range this year. Wendell Carter might sneakily be the best big in the draft.

The difference between 9th and, say, 12th is so enormous in this draft that anything short of active tanking measures could be franchise ruining. We should avoid playing Kanter, Lee, and KOQ much…but we won’t.

I bet Perry had a HUGE sigh of relief. Now there’s no pressure- as in half the fans sayin “TANK!” and the vets and other half of the fans sayin “PLAYOFFS!”. He can now breathe alot easier and just work. Considering the timeline for KP’s return, you really can’t question bringin in Mudiay. Personally, I hate losing McBuckets, but Mudiay is such a low risk- high reward move, there’s not much to argue. My only real issue with Perry’s deadline moves is the return for Hernangomez. I feel like it was too risky and that he should have gotten a better return by sending him to a team that actually has room to use him. It wasn’t an awful return, I just expected more.

I wanted to see Lee moved so that our young guards can get minutes- especially since Mudiay and Ntilikina can play both guard spots. But considering that Dotson can play some 3, I think Hornacek will figure it out. He was at his best in Phoenix when he had a surplus of PG’s..now he has 4 on the active roster who all should play. I think those guys need Jack, so waiving him shouldn’t be an option unless he moves into an assistant coach role. I’m excited for the rest of the season now. Let’s see what ya got Hornacek! Show us you can coach, because if you don’t- Perry has no ties to you and will likely dump you at season’s end.

Phil’s draft record has started to take a hit of late. We drafted Jerian at #19 but should have chosen Delon Wright at #20 or Tyus Jones at #24. We gave up two 2RPs picks to draft WHG and we just received two 2RPs. KP’s health is a question mark. But maybe Kornet is the real deal. If so I’d feel better about starting the 2019-20 season with KOQ on a cheap deal and Kornet at center. The 3 killer K’s (Kyle, KP, and Kornet) would be a nice Phil legacy.

I can’t wait to see the backcourt combination of Mudiay and Frank just for the comedy aspects of it. We might break the NBA turnover record for a backcourt.

I hope Knicks didn’t pass up a deal for Courtney involving an expiring contract (Thibs?). First, we may have lost an opportunity to use his cap for a value signing, a rental, or a 1and1 signing. But perhaps more important is that he’s gonna really gonna gum up the works. How are we gonna find minutes for Dotson, Frank and Baker because you know Knicks are not gonna bench Lee. Here’s a possible minutes distribution without him:
1: Mudiay (25) Frank (15) Burke (8)
2: Dotson (20) Frank (15) Baker (13)
3: Timmy (28) Draft Pick? Hezonja?

I’m not sure trying to trade him this summer works all that well. If a contender wanted him for the playoffs this year, they just lost that and his value should be diminished for that reason and his advancing age. He’s also regressing hard at the moment which won’t help. And there will be no expiring contracts so we’ve lost the opportunity to use his cap this summer for a value signing, a rental, a 1and1 deal. There maaaay be an opportunity to swap him for Cole right after TWolves are knocked out of playoffs but I’m not sure how that partial guarantee would work .

Veteran leadership is not enough to outweigh those negatives. Just gather all the youngins once a week in a conference room and Skype Noah from his home to give a motivational speech.

I don’t think we have to worry much about minutes until next year. By the time that happens there will be an entirely new pecking order resulting from our draft picks and any trades and FA signings. There will be winners and losers.

Baker seems like a great kid. I love how hard he plays, but if we are worried about his minutes next year we probably did something else wrong.

I’m more worried about how poorly Hardaway is playing. His contract takes us well into the period when we hope to start to making some noise. We are spending a lot too much for a guy that should be coming off the bench.

Sometimes after an injury you have a couple of good games on adrenaline and then you dip because your timing and shot are off. I’m hoping that’s it. But the reality is that he seems to be impacted mentally by how things are going and it makes matters worse.

The Baker contract wasn’t smart, but it’s not damaging. Hardaway’s is starting to look like a problem.

I think THJ should be fine once we play him alongside a competent SF. Right now there’s something wrong with his head, and I think a couple games off wouldn’t hurt.

I think it’s telling that the asking prices on Lee and O’Quinn were higher than the asking price on Hernangomez. It looked like a joke that they sold him for a bag of magic beans, but watching Kornet play makes it look a lot less crazy. Kornet’s development and the salvaging of Trey Burke’s game make me hopeful that the G League might actually be a place to develop guys and not just a joke. I really hope the Knicks know what they’re doing with Frank Ntilikina because the G League isn’t looking wasteful the way it did as recent as last year.

Another thing is Kanter, Kornet, and O’Quinn might keep the Knicks from investing a lotto pick in Wendell Carter. I think we’ll end up low enough to take Michael Porter Jr or Trae Young, but unless it’s Mo Bamba or DeAndre Ayton, I don’t see how the Knicks justify drafting a 5 with so much depth at that position.

I also have to say that if I hadn’t to watch Jarrett Jack and Lance Thomas this team might still be fun anyway. Beasley is a lot of fun by himself. Especially when we’re not trying to win

I think it’s telling that the asking prices on Lee and O’Quinn were higher than the asking price on Hernangomez.

If ever there was a team where an appeal to authority doesn’t make sense, it would be the Knicks.

Zion Williamson is one of the most unusual prospects I’ve seen in a long time. He’s sort of like KP, in that their bodies don’t make any sense, but Williamson’s body is the other way, in that he’s so big, muscular-wise, and yet he moves so fast. I can’t wait to see how he does at Duke, playing with two other top level high school prospects. Which of the three will stand out the most?

I’m starting to think about the Willy trade a little differently now.
1st round picks are basically like gold now. No one is trading one unless it’s in a Blake Griffin-like trade.
Second round picks are relatively valuable now in trade talks. PJ Tucker, who is a really good player, got traded for 2 second-rounders also. Tyreke Evans, who is a truly useful player that is making peanuts (as a rental) couldn’t even get more than a 2nd round pick. We basically got the #7 pick from 3 drafts ago for a 2nd round pick. I know Willy is on a good contract, but good players can be gotten just for 2nd round picks nowadays.

That said – re: Courtney Lee – I think it’s still possible we get a late 1st out of him if we are willing to take on some salary around draft time. I’m thinking of a contender drafting #25+ or something – wouldn’t they rather have 2 years of Courtney Lee in their contention window rather than some draft pick they don’t feel amazing about and are stuck to for probably 4+ years on guaranteed contracts, especially if we take a matching salary back?

In a bubble, the Mudiay trade is fine, but he’s been a complete bust so far, and it’s not like the Knicks are a “teaching” organization.

The ultimate problem now (aside from having crappy players) is that these kids just need tons of minutes so they can work on their skills. But Horny has such a quick hook with the younguns and plays the vets way too much… so how can we possibly measure what we even have in players like Mudiay and Dotson?

i just want to say thank god we still have a unikornet with us.

Setting aside how the NBA is valuing picks right now, this is the way I see it.

When you make a selection in the 2nd round you are mostly “hoping” to find a guy that can become a rotation player. Most of the time you are going to wind up with an end of the bench player or someone that doesn’t make it in the NBA at all. We already had a player that showed enough to be considered a pretty good backup with a little more experience. He just needed some seasoning to get there. So to me, we gave up a bird in the hand for 2 in the bush. I don’t know what our exact chances are for coming up with someone like Willy with those 2 picks, but I think it’s far from certain and very unlikely we get someone better. So I think we lost the deal.

On top of that, if for whatever reason they didn’t like him or there are things we don’t know about, they still should have tried to maintain his value and then traded him instead of killing it with him buried on the bench.

Lastly, I think picks in general are simply being overvalued right now for whatever reason.

Luke Kornet. Really?
So everyone was down on KP, but Kornet is the new darling.
Yeah, he hit a couple of open jumpers and grabbed a couple of boards, but did you watch him play?

As I said after the game last night:
Kornet had a great debut.
Unfortunately, his footwork is like a newborn giraffe, and he’s 7’0, 102 lbs.
He’s a nothing-burger.

Yeah, there was no downside to holding Willy for the rest of the year. I figure the trade means we’re looking at Kanter as our C going forward and the FO probably doesn’t like Kanter plus Willy as they’re so similar they present the same match up problems.

I’ve gone cold on Frank.
I thought he needed time to develop, and for sure, he does.

However, he seems to have no feel for the game., he never keeps his dribble, he passes to the wrong guys, he repeatedly repeatedly make lazy passes that get stolen for easy layups, plays with no confidence, can’t finish at the rim, yada yada yada.
On the other hand, he has long arms.

Yeah, physically, he looks like a good NBA player. Maybe he should quit basketball and go into modeling.
My hunch is that he started playing basketball later in life.

If we could fuse Frank’s body into Trey Burke, the knicks PG problems would be solved.

I feel like I’ve thought that about 30-some-odd pairs of Knicks over the years, hoola. It never happens!

Brian, I think it’s Dave Bliss. Didn’t we have that guy Hopla on staff at some point?

2017-18 Per Game

Tim Hardaway 32.4 Min, 16.4 PTS, 4.2 REB, 2.9 AST, 1.6 TOV, 1.1 STL, 0.2 BLK TS .521
Justin Holiday 34.2 Min, 13.4 PTS, 4.5 REB, 2.3 AST, 1.3 TOV, 1.1 STL, 0.6 AST, TS .523

Helllooo Justin Holiday. Welcome back to the knicks. Here’s your $72M.

Hornacek said Sichting’s focus is offense so maybe it’s him? Would not be shocked if we didn’t have one.

@28
What follow is not my evaluation of the trade for (H)akeem Hernangomez
(I’d rather kept him and played him to see what we have) or a judgement on out FO, but…

“Willy was more productive than Malcolm Brogdon last year”?

Are you joking right?
And don’t give me some statistical magic, I’m talking real basketball here.
If you watched just one Bucks game last year (or this one for the matter) you must be joking.

Especially as a rookie there’s a BIG difference in playing 27 meaningful minutes per game for a playoff team (and 31 later in the playoff) and playing 18 a game for a shitty team (many of them in garbage time).

From an asset management standpoint I understand some of the rage that’s around here about the trade, on a “player value” standpoint we’re really overrating WHG and Brogdon has already showed that he’s a better player.

And MIL refuse to give Brogdon to PHO in the Bledsoe deal, so yes, they probably value him more than 2 second rounders… and for good reasons!

Our despair and contempt are legitimate, but please let’s be real, the NBA isn’t a Fantasy League.

Probably our shooting coach is Dolan…

The best shooter on the staff is Hornacek. He’s probably also our best overall shooter

He actually was a shooting coach when he started out. So maybe he still works as the de facto shooting coach? ess-dog might be right that it’s Bliss. I forgot that they kept him on. He was a video coordinator before, but maybe he’s a shooting coach now?

I really don’t think Courtney Lee is the problem. I know he’s not part of our future, but giving him away for nothing would have only given the kids more playing time; which is not necessarily a bad thing, but who is our young 3 that deserves that time? Dotson has shown nothing. Maybe Courtney is easier to move at next years’ deadline, with only 1 year left? He is shooting 40% from 3 this year.

The real problem is Lance Thomas.

Kornet had a great debut.
Unfortunately, his footwork is like a newborn giraffe, and he’s 7’0, 102 lbs.
He’s a nothing-burger.

Re: Kornet – I didn’t watch that much of the game but I thought he moved pretty well on defense. 4 blocks and 10 rebounds in 22 minutes is no joke. I don’t care if he looks like Gerald the Giraffe out there (parents of young kids will know who that is!) if he has production like that.

I really don’t think Courtney Lee is the problem. I know he’s not part of our future, but giving him away for nothing would have only given the kids more playing time; which is not necessarily a bad thing, but who is our young 3 that deserves that time? Dotson has shown nothing. Maybe Courtney is easier to move at next years’ deadline, with only 1 year left? He is shooting 40% from 3 this year.

The real problem is Lance Thomas.

Giving him away would take him off of the cap for the next two years. They should tank next year and he hurts the tank, plus has no future with the team, plus he’s getting to the age where players sometimes fall off of cliffs (he’s already spiraling in the last month or so).

If they couldn’t get a first for him this year, there’s no way he’s going to suddenly net a first when he’s A. older and B. making more money (i.e. harder to fit him into other team’s cap).

When we were all evaluating the propects in the KP draft a few years ago, I dubbed Mudiay “Brickshaw” (China connection) and argued vehemently against drafting him. I have no hard data but I believe that many players may significantly improve their spot-up shooting through practice but few make any meaningful gain in shooting off the dribble. Winslow was knocking down spot-up 3s in college but was atrocious off the dribble. We all know that Shump could hit spot-up 3s but he made one’s eyes sore shooting off the dribble (and finishing). I don’t hold out much hope for Mudiay improving in this area even if we brought in that vaunted Spurs’ shooting coach. Still I think the Mudiay signing was worth a shot since we gave up nothing and there have gotta be some players improved a lot in that regard. He’s still young enough that there’s a faint glimmer of hope.

If Mudiay wants to become a useful NBA player he needs to somehow learn how to finish at the rim better and cut down on his turnovers or somehow learn to shoot well off the dribble. He has improved his FT and (maybe) his 3 point shooting.

Lee, by the way, is a career .088 WS/48 player. This year? After being as high as .140 early in the season, he’s now at .094 and looks like he is still falling.

Not shooting you down, Brian, but do stat heads still use WS/48? I ask because that’s still the first single stat I look at for a quick and dirty summary of how good a player is and I had gotten the impression on boards that it was out-of-date. Certainly CP3 being #1 and Neil Johnston #5 all-time raises doubt!

By the way, if you waive minimum games played, Luke Kornet currently sits at #5 all-time right behind Wilt Chamberlain. 🙂

@63

WS is outdated but not totally useless I think. BPM PIPM and RPM are all likely better stats however but WS is informative enough that I think it’s still worth looking at and considering. Just less the be all end all than it used to be.

I think we need to talk about why Kornet isn’t named Travis

The only hope for Mudiay is that maybe he can eliminate his midrange shots because his 3pt% is rising into respectability and it seems like he can get to the rim.

Mudiay can get to the rim, he can draw fouls, but he can’t finish at the rim. He’s shot around .500 at the rim for 3 years in a row. That’s not awful, and he should definitely stop shooting off the dribble, but it’s certainly not what you want to see.

A friend of mine who’s a big Duke fan tells me that Zion is only the 3rd rated of the new Duke recruits. They pretty much signed the top 4 recruits.

A friend of mine who’s a big Duke fan tells me that Zion is only the 3rd rated of the new Duke recruits. They pretty much signed the top 4 recruits.

Yeah, he was the #3 ranked prospect. That’s why it will be interesting to see how they integrate all three guys into the team, especially since they’re all around the same height.

Talking about falling, THJ is 13-60 (2-26 from 3) in the last 5 games…
I think it’s one of the worst slump ever, could he continue to be that bad?

No, but I think he could easily continue to produce more volatile results than statistics would suggest makes sense. I have yet to find the time to test it on my own, but I’m fairly certain that players have varying standard deviations in their shooting from night to night or week to week etc..

Just because 2 guys are both 35% from 3 does not mean their their ups and down will look the same. In fact, I’m kind of shocked that kind of data is not public unless someone has looked at it and there wasn’t much there except for a handful of cases.

I’d rather have a more consistent guy as a starter so I can depend on him. I might prefer to have a more volatile guy as my 6th man. That way if I’m trailing, I can give him a quick heat check to see if he can shoot me back into the game. If not, back on the bench.

zion is a big… wait and see…. i have a feeling he’s highly overrated…. when you outweigh your opponents you have a huge advantage at the hs level… and to an extent the college level as well….

No doubt, that’s why he is so fascinating as a prospect. He’s so big and yet he moves so quickly. But yes, a lot of his high school success has been just barreling through guys.

Is Zion Williamson fat? I watched some highlights from this season, and according to the forums, he is indeed a whopping 270 lbs. He can still jump out of the gym, but that’s a lot of weight for a 6’7″ guy. Hell, Barkley was around 255 at the same height, and he was pretty round.

He’s a sure-fire lottery pick, but I can’t help but wonder if he would be a 6’7″ DSJ if he got down to 255 with decent programming. Or maybe he’s the wing version of Shaq and he’ll use that extra weight to destroy skinny PFs.

He’s a sure-fire lottery pick, but I can’t help but wonder if he would be a 6’7? DSJ if he got down to 255 with decent programming. Or maybe he’s the wing version of Shaq and he’ll use that extra weight to destroy skinny PFs.

That’s what is so unique about him – he really does look like a wing version of Shaq. That’s so damned freaky. It’s like how KP is Shawn Bradley with a three pointer. It just doesn’t seem to make physical sense!

It really really sucks I can’t go on draftexpress anymore.

Right?

And I was kidding about Unikornet. I need to see him for the next 24 exceed all expectation, not play for the next season, trade him for two second rounders to assume he didn’t know how to practice or something.

Zion’s weight doesn’t sound right but I recall him being weighed twice and at 270 and 267 respectively. He might just be an insane Lebron level athlete where the weight doesn’t hurt but help him finish at the rim at a high %.

Zion’s weight doesn’t sound right but I recall him being weighed twice and at 270 and 267 respectively. He might just be an insane Lebron level athlete where the weight doesn’t hurt but help him finish at the rim at a high %.

The thing about Lebron is that he is also a crazy freaky physical person, but he doesn’t look heavy the way that Zion does, so I have to imagine that it will eventually become an issue for him the way it did for Barkley (and, going the other way, that similarly freaky bodies have apparently hurt Bradley and KP).

Zion is like if you melded old, fat Shawn Kemp and young, jump-out-the-gym Shawn Kemp into one person.

The knock on the Knicks (and Herring said this recently) is they draft well but are terrible at player development. This is why I didn’t want Frank. I thought he was a great prospect but didn’t trust us to develop him.

Bringing in TWO failed lottery picks desperate to revive their careers strikes me as a suboptimal way to develop a promising 19 year old.

I don’t see really that Mudiay can’t shoot off the dribble. He’s shooting about 40% on pull-ups, which is better than Kyle Lowry, comparable to Melo, etc.

I think his major issue is that his shot distribution is all wrong and for whatever reason he can’t finish at the rim — for a guy his size and athleticism he only shoots 50% in the restricted area, which is just awful. Weird thing is that he came out of high school with the rep that he could get to the basket at will and was a great finisher.

Draftexpress:

-Strong ball-handler. Can get to the basket thanks to his powerful first step and excellent strength. Finishes with authority
-Draws tons of fouls. Gets to the free throw line at a great rate

Yet he never gets to the line and can’t finish at the rim.
And so he ends up throwing up a bunch of crap — he takes about 50% of his shots from floater range out to <3 point range and only has a FTR of 23%.

The promising thing is that pretty much all his shooting percentages have improved year by year.

I dunno – this is like the Trey Burke thing but with better upside since Burke will always be held back by his lack of size and athleticism at the PG position.

It's really too bad he went to China rather than going to college. Seems like he really needed some real development and instead ended up in China then into the pros where there's no practice time.

I still don’t quite understand why Orlando was willing to take the Suns 2nd round pick but was so insistent on Frank from us to get Payton. Even if the pick the Suns were offering figured to be a little better than what we had to offer, the gap between Frank and that Suns pick is too huge to be taken seriously. We could have added a little cash or something.

Could it be an east/west thing or are teams so used to fleecing us they refuse to do business unless it’s a fleece?

Is it possible we are so hated around the league (by that I mean Dolan) that teams don’t like to deal with us at all unless it’s a blowout trade? That feels too paranoid, but it seems like we have a very difficult time in free agency and in trades all the time.

I agree we overpaid for THJ, but I have a hard time on the one hand hearing you knew he was not going to improve, and then comparing him to Holliday, whose numbers have improved big time this year, even though he’s 3 years older than Timmy.

mudiay still has a very sloppy game and it doesn’t look like he’s made any progress on that front… the lower half of his body in particular is a huge mess… frank has a similar problem…. when you’re not particularly explosive or quick… you need to be a bit crafty around the basket….

a guy like delon wright is a good example of what a tall pg needs to do… he’s creative around the basket… thinks quickly and adjusts… he has a variety of dribble moves to get by defenders and gets low when needed….

mudiay and frank… has a persistently high dribble…. it’s lazy…. and aside from a basis hesitation move they have zero creative ability with the ball……

I still don’t quite understand why Orlando was willing to take the Suns 2nd round pick but was so insistent on Frank from us to get Payton.

Only Isola has reported this so I’m gonna chalk it up as fake news.

The Markelle Fultz story is so weird. What professional basketball player forgets how to shoot the ball?

Zion kind of reminds me of Larry Johnson for some reason….

Oh god imagine if this Fultz story was happening in LA or New York. There should be a total overhaul of team personnel for letting this happen.

I can’t even imagine having this happen to a Knick player. If the Knicks got the #1 pick and then this happened? Lordy.

Imagine if we lucked into the #1 pick last year and drafted Fultz (who was pretty close to being the consensus #1 pick) as our PG of the future, the next Clyde…

I guess I should be happy we only squandered a #8 pick on a useless player. (just razzin’, calm down!)

Imagine if we lucked into the #1 pick last year and drafted Fultz (who was pretty close to being the consensus #1 pick) as our PG of the future, the next Clyde…

Insane. It would have been insane. I feel awful for the situation and it isn’t even happening to the Knicks. If it was happening here. I can’t even.

I tried to be a Nets fan after the Lin fiasco. For some reason that was my breaking point. Even joined a Nets blog. I got bored with it after a couple of weeks and just tuned out for a few years other than draft and trading deadline time. Came back full time after the melo exile.

The Nets blog is still available. (I kid, I kid…)

The promising thing is that pretty much all his shooting percentages have improved year by year.

———FG% by Distance
3FG%– .31 .31 .37
16-arc– .34 .33 .34
10-16— .31 .26 .35
3-10—- .29 .29 .39
0-3—– .47 .50 .50
2P%—– .38 .41 .41

All his percentages haven’t really improved year by year. His over 2P% did improve from his first to second year but that was due to his at rim going up but it’s stayed flat so far. It looks like he made a significant jump this season in 700 minutes (versus 1400 and 2000 minutes in previous years) in his 3FG% and in the 3-10 feet area. Is that noise is or it real? Let’s hope it’s real.

Fultz is either still hurt and nobody is diagnosing it correctly, or he is the Mackey Sasser of point guards. He shot the ball normally in college. His form right now on his jump shot might be worse than mine, and I’m 46 years old and I touch a basketball maybe once every two years. I can’t recall seeing any basketball player just completely forget how to shoot the ball.

The real problem is Lance Thomas.

I didn’t realize until recently but the last year of Lance’s contract isn’t guaranteed. He clutters our cap space next year (which doesn’t really matter) and then he turns into a good trading chip (essentially he is $7mm of erasable payroll).

Our problem contracts are Noah, Lee, and Hardaway. The fact that we could have moved one now and chose not to is very alarming. I’d bet anything that in the summer of 2019 we’re attaching an asset to Courtney Lee’s contract so we can free up cap space to make another mistake.

Thomas, Baker, and Kanter are bad contracts that have minimal negative impact due to our overall shitty situation.

tsam, it goes further with that. lost in “the process” is that they wiffed on Okafor and lost Noel for nothing. They basically hit on 2 of 5 picks, both of which were #1s, both of which missed at least a year.

tsam, it goes further with that. lost in “the process” is that they wiffed on Okafor and lost Noel for nothing. They basically hit on 2 of 5 picks, both of which were #1s, both of which missed at least a year.

It’s not lost in the process, it is the entire point of the process. The process was collecting enough high draft picks so that even if you whiff on them (and odds are everyone is going to whiff on a couple) that you’ll still be good regardless. That’s why they talk about the process itself, since the point is that you couldn’t get hung up on each individual outcome. You have to just trust that the overall process will work out in the end. Which is exactly what happened, even with the awful way that the Colangelos have managed their assets since they took over (like their ridiculous Noel trade and their low-key shitty Jerami Grant move. No way Hinkie would have given up on Grant like that).

I’d bet anything that in the summer of 2019 we’re attaching an asset to Courtney Lee’s contract so we can free up cap space to make another mistake.

These guys seem to like Lee so much they may put him back into the same space. 🙂

What’s also a mystery is that Lee told them he wanted to stay in NY. He’s got guaranteed money. Why not ask to go to a contender and try to push them into deal. No one would question a request like that at his age and given where we are.

The thing about Lebron is that he is also a crazy freaky physical person, but he doesn’t look heavy the way that Zion does, so I have to imagine that it will eventually become an issue for him the way it did for Barkley (and, going the other way, that similarly freaky bodies have apparently hurt Bradley and KP).

Google Lebron’s workouts. He’s got a six pack. Completely ripped. Zero fat.

Google Lebron’s workouts. He’s got a six pack. Completely ripped. Zero fat.

Right, that’s what I mean. Lebron is a heavy guy, but it’s all pure muscle. Zion is, well, you know, not.

I still don’t quite understand why Orlando was willing to take the Suns 2nd round pick but was so insistent on Frank from us to get Payton.

The aforementioned point about Isola being untrustworthy stands, but this does make sense. GMs have good reason to think we’d do something stupid.

I bet the Orlando GM had the trade with the Suns locked up and kept them on standby just to wait and see if he could fleece the Knicks. That’s probably why it got done at the last minute.

It’s not lost in the process, it is the entire point of the process. The process was collecting enough high draft picks so that even if you whiff on them (and odds are everyone is going to whiff on a couple) that you’ll still be good regardless.

I was totally on board with what Hinkie was doing when he started. It was more or less my dream scenario for building a team. But after all these years, they are still fighting for the 8th seed. Most likely they are still 2 maybe 3 years away from becoming a serious contender. But the bigger problem is that their franchise player may be more fragile that Porzingis. If he goes down like ours did, it will be close to a 7-8 year “process” that netted them an incredible cache of lottery picks (that included some luck in the lottery) without ever getting them close to a title. Granted, they will still have other great building blocks to continue and may get there eventually anyway. But observing it changed my view of the “dream scenario”. I’m not sure anyone has the stomach for it and it may not even work.

What’s the deal with the pick they traded to the Celtics. The Celtics get, what, whichever is worse between the Kings and the Lakers? Or just the Lakers’ pick?

Oh, okay, it looks like the Celtics won’t get a pick in this draft period (besides their own). They would only get the Lakers pick if it landed #2-5. Otherwise, the Celtics get either the Kings’ 2019 pick or the Sixers’ 2019 pick (whichever one is better – except they get the lesser of the two picks no matter what if the other pick is #1 overall).

I tried to be a Nets fan after the Lin fiasco. For some reason that was my breaking point. Even joined a Nets blog. I got bored with it after a couple of weeks and just tuned out for a few years other than draft and trading deadline time. Came back full time after the melo exile.

The easiest way to become a fan is to go to their games. Problem is, the Nets are worse than the knicks.

what is the deal with Lance’s last year? someone said it’s not fully guaranteed in 2019/20, but I can’t find that.

Lots of places have it, but spotrac is the best of the bunch for contract figures. They note that it is guaranteed for just $1 million in 2019-20.

If I were to switch allegiance, maybe I could do Toronto – so few dumb moves. Maybe I should just become a fan of front offices….

It is irredeemable stupidity

I don’t get this at all. I don’t love the Willy trade either, but if trading a kid who could not crack the lineup, and spoke out about it, for two 2nds (which have some value these days) is what puts you over the edge, compared to some of the stupid shit we’ve done, I don’t know what to say.

I mean, had we got a 1 for him, it would have been a steal. Payton was traded for one 2nd.

Again, not saying I would have done it, so maybe grade it a C, or risky? They see this kid every day; they know what they have. I know he was good last year, but it’s the same coaching staff, and they sat him. that tells you something. even if you don’t like the coach.

Give me Masai or give me death.

Honestly, us signing him is the only thing that would change my outlook on the Knicks.

Oh, okay, it looks like the Celtics won’t get a pick in this draft period (besides their own). They would only get the Lakers pick if it landed #2-5.

“With the 4th pick in the 2018 NBA draft, the Celtics select Luka Doncic from Slovenia”

You can book it.

They see this kid every day; they know what they have.

Again, though, the Knicks should be one of the last teams in the NBA where you would want to make an “Appeal to authority” argument.

The Willy trade was dumb but I’m still excited about the teams ability to get high lotto draft picks right now and build on that. A top 8(possible top 5) pick this year and an almost guaranteed top 5 pick next year to add to KP/Frank is something to be optimistic about.

I think the new FO is still dumb but not dumb enough to completely sabotage us going forward.

I don’t get this at all. I don’t love the Willy trade either, but if trading a kid who could not crack the lineup, and spoke out about it, for two 2nds (which have some value these days) is what puts you over the edge, compared to some of the stupid shit we’ve done, I don’t know what to say.

Willy was handled poorly and imo we lost the trade, but I don’t think that trade in isolation is what is pissing people off. It’s the accumulated frustration that comes from years of mistakes. More importantly, it’s the realization that Perry is probably not any better than some of the guys that have been GM before him (not that that’s a shock given that Mills hired him).

Even though we came into the year with all our picks, 20m of cap space, and a few young players, we are already blowing that meager start.

We put Hardaway and Baker into the 20m of cap space we had coming into this year. Both deals look bad right now (one VERY bad). So instead of moving forward, we’ve worsened our position.

We blew the value on Hernangomez who was supposed to be a core young piece.

We turned a bad situation with Noah into something even worse.

We haven’t been finding any time to develop Dotson and Frank looks like he’s going backwards.

This one may be more specific to me, but they seem to really like Kanter. That scares the crap out of me on multiple levels (1. They might re-sign and over pay him again. 2. They don’t seem to recognize the off boxscore negatives about his game.)

It’s hard to feel optimistic. I am way more down now than I was coming into the season even though I predicted only 30 wins.

Odd bit of news: Noah just posted a video on Instagram of…well, I won’t say of what exactly. Feel free to go to his IG page and see for yourself why I wouldn’t explain what he does in the video. But it’s him and Kyle O’Quinn and KOQ is laying on a trainer’s table in what one would assume is a Knicks facility.

Which is to say, maybe this means Noah is back with the team now and ready to get some minutes?

Did someone post this? Was not aware but he is a great story. Considering how much he grew through college maybe there is something there. And he got an 800 on his Math SAT and majored in computer science! The Knicks have that going for them now, maybe he can intern in the FO while he plays 😉

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2597403-from-college-afterthought-to-nba-prospect-the-stunning-rise-of-luke-kornet

Strat, I totally agree with your assessment. I was talking to the outrage over the Willy deal alone.

@160

That made me burst out laughing in the library

For the millionth time, no one is arguing that the Knicks could’ve gotten much more for Willy. That ship sailed when they nailed him to the bench for god knows what reason (and spare me the “well maybe he looked bad in practice” crap, the guy was successful in substantial NBA minutes).

They just obviously shouldn’t have traded him at all when his value was at its absolute lowest. I would say that’s Asset Management 101 but I would assume anyone teaching that class would expect students to know that coming in.

I was just as dejected as rama when that trade was made. Not because on its own it was so devastating–I’d give it 206 millicurries–but because it demonstrated this front office is the same as the last which was the same as the last which was the same as the last.

i don’t get the sense either that there is any deep level of thinking…. everything i’ve heard from perry, mills and just about anybody connected with the knicks staff is very conventional old school type of thinking….

which i think has it’s place… but to be dominated by it… is another…. and it will show if it hasn’t already…

i think we’re in for another long 5 years and it’s possible it’s a lot worse than the previous 5….

“With the 4th pick in the 2018 NBA draft, the Celtics select Luka Doncic from Slovenia”

Luckily, by saying “#2-5,” the only possible options are #2 and #3, since the Lakers won’t be bad enough to net the #4 or #5 seed by record and you can’t get there by lottery.

Based on everything he said pre-season, I think KP is going to leave. All he wanted was the knicks to be heading in the right direction. The remainder of this season and next season look like a downward spiral and plummeting morale.
Unless he has a change of heart, KP is not looking to squeeze every dollar out of his next contract. He wants to play meaningful basketball while growing his craft. The knicks don’t offer that option.
My bet, he goes to LA and plays for Magic.

even the writeup from the Denver fans (who I am assuming are just like us, in that we all love Will Chandler) for the most part either with Mudiay well or think he will improve.

OK….fuck all that other stuff. I just googled Jared Jeffries. You should do that. 2 notes:
-There is a show called “Modern Fishing with Jared Jeffries”. it’s on the outdoor channel.
-“Jared Jeffries wife” popped up on my google search. Lets just say I was wrong about Jared Jeffries not being able to finish.

Oh, I knew it wasn’t you saying it, I was just surprised to see anyone call a guy who refuses to speak to the media a “consummate professional.” I don’t personally have a beef with dudes who want to be weirdos like that, but it sure ain’t “professional.” I just write dumb stuff on the internet and I’m expected by my bosses to be open to media inquiries, ya know? This is a guy who makes millions to entertain people!

And yeah, Jared Jeffries is awesome. When the Knicks did a 180 away from D’Antoni’s people, they lost a lot of their coolest players, like Jeffries. I mean, I certainly get it, but it’s still a bit of a shame.

I was just watching the highlights of the Minny game and, well, goddamn that was amazing.

Based on everything he said pre-season, I think KP is going to leave. All he wanted was the knicks to be heading in the right direction. The remainder of this season and next season look like a downward spiral and plummeting morale.

I don’t think he will, but It would be smart of him if he did. It would be different if he had reason to have faith in management, but he has no reason to. They were dealt a hand that easily should have moved us forward a notch or at least held us neutral while they rearranged things and looked for better opportunities. We are unquestionably in a worse position now than when they took over given we added 2 bad contracts and killed Willy’s value.

To extend it further, he first blew by Andrew “we all sort of assume he’s good on defense” Wiggins to lay in the game-tying bucket before his game-saving block!

pulls a Laettner

I grew up in Kentucky, and even the bare mention of this still brings out a flash of anger, despite not following UK for 20 years.

There are a couple other guys who could win with Kevin Love and the Jabronis, but at 33, with those miles on their legs? No fucking way.

it’s a good reason to play hardball with him…. he probably shouldn’t get the max…. although probably close to it….

does anyone trade kp and the #10 pick for the #1 and draft doncic? i think i would….

There is literally a 0% chance KP leaves now. We might even draft two better players than him in the next two years.

Here’s another clue that KP may leave. In a preseason interview, he said he felt good about other teams expressing interest in him when Phil was shopping him. He seemed almost surprised, and happy that he had options to play elsewhere.

Hoolahoop, you’re really just repeating things that every basketball player says when asked that question. It’s meaningless. Of course Porzingis would love for the team to be competing for titles ASAP. That is not an option for the Knicks. If you push to be better now, you will be worse when KP is actually a UFA and you’ll have screwed yourself twice over when he leaves then.

It’s hard enough to escape mediocrity without trying to cater to your star-esque player. Trying to do a Phil Jackson and stay competitive while adding less young talent than all the other teams with similar records are adding is a path to more mediocrity. The threat of KP leaving even if it was real is irrelevant because to cater to his supposed will puts the Knicks in a bad position even with KP.

@ 195
Players should not dictate decisions. But you sure better cater to your most valuable players. Because if you don’t, someone else will. Every good owner knows how to keep his best players happy.

I don’t understand why people bring up Philly as a reason not to tank. Imagine if Fultz hadn’t fucked his shoulder up or go even further back and have them take Porzingis instead of Okafor.

All I’m saying hoola is that the Knicks aren’t in a position to play it safe. If they try to coddle KP (assuming he is stupid enough to think that it’s in his or the team’s best interest to make win now moves, which is a ginormous assumption), then they put themselves in a position where the team will not achieve greatness and furthermore make it much more likely that in 2022 or whatever when KP’s extension or new contract runs out, that the Knicks are in a terrible position.

Like, look what happened to teams like Cleveland with Lebron and New Orleans with both Paul and soon Anthony Davis. The team got all hot and bothered when it drafted a burgeoning superstar, cluttered its cap with terrible contracts, burned picks so it couldn’t reverse course, and then the guy they went out of their way to coddle looked around at the shit situation and was like “fuck this. I’m out of here.” And those players are far better than KP. THey were far better than KP when they were his age.

Like imagine you want to be rich so you can marry this golddigger you’ve had a crush on forever. You can throw lots of parties when you’re middle class, putting yourself in debt just to get her to think you actually have money only for her to leave you a year or two later when your debt catches up to you or else you can live frugally and save until you actually are rich. You seem to be advocating the former strategy without recognizing that it will inevitably leave the this already talent-impoverished team even poorer down the line and cause KP to boogie on out here for sure once he realizes that you were so desperate to appear rich that you mortgaged your mom’s house to get those 35 wins and that all he can look forward to is several years of being weighed down by all the debt you’ve racked up.

Jowles feeling froggy