Knicks Morning News (2018.01.03)

  • [NYTimes] Isaiah Thomas Helps End Losing Streak in His Cavaliers Debut
    (Wednesday, January 03, 2018 5:13:26 AM)

    The All-Star guard, who missed 36 games with a hip injury, came off the bench to score 16 points in Cleveland’s 127-110 victory over Portland on Tuesday.

  • [NYTimes] Keeping Score: How Much Will Isaiah Thomas Improve the Cavaliers?
    (Wednesday, January 03, 2018 2:46:00 AM)

    The key player acquired for Kyrie Irving, Thomas is a tremendous offensive talent, but he might not do much for Cleveland’s defensive shortcomings.

  • [NY Newsday] Spurs defeat Knicks on both ends of court
    (Tuesday, January 02, 2018 11:49:07 PM)

    The Knicks opened the New Year at home, but it seemed the Manu Ginobili fans outnumbered their supporters.

  • [NY Newsday] Knicks rookie Frank Ntilikina continues to show growth
    (Tuesday, January 02, 2018 10:56:11 PM)

    You only get one chance to make a first impression and Frank Ntilikina made an awfully good one on Gregg Popovich.

  • [NY Newsday] Ron Baker out while waiting for mask to protect face injury
    (Tuesday, January 02, 2018 8:58:01 PM)

    Ron Baker wasn’t only posterized when he tried to prevent an Anthony Davis dunk Saturday night in New Orleans. Baker sustained a left orbital fracture after taking an elbow to the face from Davis.

  • [ESPN] Three the odd way: Ginobili sinks pass attempt
    (Wednesday, January 03, 2018 12:32:43 AM)

    Manu Ginobili made a 3-pointer while attempting a pass and in the process confused both the Spurs and Knicks.

  • [ESPN] Knicks’ Baker has orbital fracture, out vs. S.A.
    (Tuesday, January 02, 2018 4:51:27 PM)

    Knicks guard Ron Baker, who suffered an orbital fracture while trying to stop the Pelicans’ Anthony Davis from dunking Saturday, is listed as day-to-day.

  • [NYDN] Frank Ntilikina made a strong first impression on Gregg Popovich
    (Tuesday, January 02, 2018 7:44:20 PM)

    Popovich once started a 19-year-old point guard out of France.

  • [NYDN] VIDEO: Manu Ginobili scores on attempted pass, refs don’t notice
    (Tuesday, January 02, 2018 5:15:13 PM)

    Nothing but net.

  • [NYDN] Knicks open 2018 with 100-91 loss to Spurs, fall under .500
    (Tuesday, January 02, 2018 5:02:56 PM)

    Not a good way to start the new year for the Knicks.

  • [NYDN] Ron Baker inactive for Knicks after suffering orbital fracture
    (Tuesday, January 02, 2018 11:56:31 AM)

    Anthony Davis’ posterization of Ron Baker truly was an in-your-face jam.

  • [NYPost] Manu Ginobili conjured some magic for his Garden-invading fans
    (Tuesday, January 02, 2018 8:00:46 PM)

    San Antonio’s Manu Ginobili expected it. His phone was exploding with text messages. “I saw it coming before the game. When I started getting texts saying, ‘Listen my doctor is coming, can you say hi?’ and ‘a friend of a friend’ and ‘my brother is coming,’ ” Ginobili said after the Spurs downed the Knicks,…

  • [NYPost] Frank Ntilikina moved by praise from his idol’s head coach
    (Tuesday, January 02, 2018 7:49:11 PM)

    The Knicks didn’t come close to winning this past Thursday in San Antonio, but Spurs coach Gregg Popovich did notice one thing: Phil Jackson drafted a good one at point guard. Sixteen years after Tony Parker became the NBA’s first French point guard, Frank Ntilikina is doing his native country proud in weaving a commendable…

  • [NYPost] How Enes Kanter surprised Kristaps Porzingis after joining the Knicks
    (Tuesday, January 02, 2018 7:37:34 PM)

    Kristaps Porzingis saw Knicks teammate Enes Kanter as an opponent through two NBA seasons, played against him in Europe during summer months. So he knew Kanter’s game pretty well. But the 7-foot-3 Knicks star admits surprise at one element. “I’m surprised for his size and with the whole league knowing what a great offensive rebounder…

  • [NYPost] Michael Beasley couldn’t coax Knicks out of poor shooting night
    (Tuesday, January 02, 2018 7:23:14 PM)

    You barely break 90 points. You just nudge over 40 percent shooting for the game. You normally don’t have anyone to be considered an offensive standout. But the .402-shooting, 100-91-losing Knicks in their effort Tuesday against the Spurs at the Garden, actually received a strong offensive game from Michael Beasley. Again. “You can call it…

  • [NYPost] Knicks fall below .500 with another crushing loss to Spurs
    (Tuesday, January 02, 2018 5:15:09 PM)

    The Knicks returned home Tuesday from a three-game road trip, but often times it didn’t feel that way. A Garden flush with international tourists weren’t chanting for Latvia’s Kristaps Porzingis, but rather Argentine legend Manu Ginobili with the sing-song: “Ole, Ole, Ole, Ole, Ole, Manuuu, Manuuu.” It went on right to the final minute, as…

  • [NYPost] Frank Ntilikina’s hero also came from humble NBA beginnings
    (Tuesday, January 02, 2018 4:13:00 PM)

    Gregg Popovich thinks back 16 years and wonders what he was thinking. This 19-year-old kid out of France was actually playing well enough during the preseason to make the grizzled coach wonder if he had what it took to be a point guard on his NBA team. “The way he played in training camp was…

  • [NYPost] Ron Baker will now pay for his Anthony Davis bravery
    (Tuesday, January 02, 2018 12:30:40 PM)

    Ron Baker’s courage in going up to lay a hard foul on Anthony Davis’ dunk attempt Saturday in New Orleans has cost him. Along with receiving three stitches to repair a bloody cheek, Baker suffered an orbital fracture, the team announced Tuesday. It’s an injury that could keep him out for a week but Baker,…

  • [SNY Knicks] Aldridge, Leonard lead Spurs to 100-91 win over Knicks
    (Tuesday, January 02, 2018 10:00:49 PM)

    LaMarcus Aldridge and the Spurs beat the Knicks for the second time in a week, this time at Madison Square Garden, as they held on to a 100-91 victory on Tuesday night. >> Box score

  • [SNY Knicks] Tonight’s game: Spurs vs. Knicks, 7:30 p.m.
    (Tuesday, January 02, 2018 6:20:17 PM)

    NEW YORK — The last time the New York Knicks played the San Antonio Spurs, LaMarcus Aldridge lit them up for 25 points and five other Spurs scored in double-figures in a 12-point win. Unfortunately for the Knicks, that was but a mere few days ago, as San Antonio scored a 119-107 home win over the Knicks on Dec. 28.

  • [SNY Knicks] Ron Baker out tonight due to orbital fracture
    (Tuesday, January 02, 2018 3:50:07 PM)

    The 24-year-old Baker has averaged 3.2 points and 2.1 assists in 17 games (14.6 minutes per game) for the Knicks this season.

  • [SNY Knicks] Hornacek gives reasoning to why Ntilikina won’t start yet
    (Tuesday, January 02, 2018 1:59:30 PM)

    Knicks head coach Jeff Hornacek gave reasoning to why he isn’t ready to start rookie PG Frank Ntilikina just yet.

  • 76 replies on “Knicks Morning News (2018.01.03)”

    I’ve generally been impressed with Hornacek, but he really isn’t helping KP at all.
    It seemed they made a conscious effort to get KP on high PNR actually rolling and not popping last night… but did it with another true big clogging the paint, so every time Kp got the ball on the roll, Aldridge or whoever was covering Kanter/KOQ was just standing there. Yes, KP could have and maybe should have made the extra pass, but he just doesn’t have that in his arsenal yet. There were 3-4 possessions like that last night, and KP predictably threw up some garbage or had to kill the possession passing out.

    But the whole idea of getting KP on the roll is great, but the implementation was just bad last night.

    Sounds like Frank was physically ill last night which is why he only played 15 min and didn’t look particularly energetic. But McDermott has been straight awful for a couple weeks now. When his shot is this off, he just doesn’t do a lot, and defensively he is a mess against a team like the Spurs. I would really like to have seen Dotson get a few more minutes last night in McD’s place. I know they only sort of play the same position, but Dotson is big enough and strong enough to hold up at the 3 in limited minutes.

    Speaking of KP and his relative inability to create good looks for himself — has anyone seen the one-foot stepback this year? Seems like he busted it out for Dirk last year and then shelved it completely. Why not do that?

    Also – we’ve seen very little of KP shooting jumpers off pindowns or other screens, which he had shown the ability to do even in his European days. That’d be another way to get him some space without having to stop the offense completely.

    Newsday has a Freudian Typo

    Baker went through practice Monday, but he was held out of the contract parts

    I’ve had one singular beef with this team in this iteration…. the total inability to set anything approaching a reasonable screen. It has been the key to playing basketball since they were shooting at peach baskets and is still a hugely part of modern 3 ball centric offenses. It sabotages the offense at ever turn and on every play. The thing that is most galling is Noah is a professional screener and Rambis made his entire career around freeing Worthy, Wilkes, Cooper, Scott etal. I do not understand for the life of me why this cannot be taught and the player’s feet held to the fire. The knowledge is on the bench and with the coaching…. it is just a lack of emphasis and self scouting on the staffs part.

    KP is the absolute worst as he doesn’t even give a whiff of an effort to set a screen and hardly gets within the same zip code as the defender before he “slips” the supposed screen. It is just awful and it can be fixed with competent coaching.

    While I am at it the entire team was literally jogging through their “sets” last night and the result was a predictable shit show.

    After sleeping on it and calming down, I haven’t changed my mind about Porzingis.

    In his defense, getting used to facing double teams and Hardaway being injured is hurting him in the short term. I still think he’s going to be a very good 2-way player and all star. But his shot selection is SO horrid, I’m starting to think he’s one of those guys that just doesn’t intuitively recognize good vs. bad shots in game play the way some way less talented players do.

    I’m willing to wait to see what happens when Hardaway comes back and takes some of the pressure off him, but if this decline continues the strategy for building the team has to be a little different if we are starting to think KP is more of a #2 than a true franchise player.

    I think KP can be the “best player” on a contender with his enormous defensive potential at the 5.

    As far as being the #1 option on offense I’m getting more skeptical by the day. Hopefully we get him a decent PG while Frank develops.

    The Knicks’ on-court issues in order of importance:
    1. Inability to defend anything after the second pass. This is huge, and I don’t want to know the number of uncontested 3’s they give up per game. It’s a mess.
    2. Inefficiency of shots. KP is taking more long-2’s than 3’s and dunks, and that is partially on him for not getting to the right spot, but mostly on coaching for not making it happen. Kanter and O’quinn are frequently get the ball under the basket, why can’t KP. Also, everyone is taking long-2’s. That’s on coaching.
    3. Inability to set plays, including setting screens, and quickly moving the ball to set up an open man. There is almost never an open man. There is almost never a set play that I can see. KP keeps getting the ball with 10 seconds left, and two defenders, no open passing lane that he can see, and keeps shooting that damn contested long-2. It’s like Hornacek is into ISO plays or something.
    4. No penetration.

    Apologies- my monthly cry:

    1. If the guys getting you those wins are older and not with the team in 5 yrs, at least not in the same role, then what’s the point of winning.

    2. There will come a point this season, just like all the others, where we wished we didn’t win so many games early on. Because (a) we would know where we stood and give minutes accordingly, (b) we would plan to move players based on correct understanding of where we stood, and (c) we wouldn’t have the yearly hope -> despair thing that sucks so much.

    All of these suggestions about how they should improve the offense….this is why you keep a team together from season to season instead of trading away players and adding a bunch of new players every year. Why do you think the Spurs are so good? They’ve basically had the same team for many many years. Of course they’ll lose a few players and have to add a few new players every off season and they’ve had some years where they’ve had to retool more than others, but the core group of guys is the same.

    All of these wrinkles to the offense will happen if we keep the core together. KP of course will eventually add passing to his game. We’ll get a penetrating guard at some point via the draft or free agency (plus we don’t have Timmy right now). The team will get better at setting screens, etc. But it takes time. They’re playing together as a unit for thee first time. If we bring back most of the same team next year, this off season players can work on specific skills knowing their roles and when they get to training camp next year they’ll all ready have the basics of the offense and defense down and can add new wrinkles.

    I remember when Dallas won in 2010. There was an interview with the coach afterwards where he talked about how they used a zone defense throughout the series at key times to frustrate and confuse miami. And the coach said that they started to learn and implement the zone defense in games THE PREVIOUS SEASON. So it had taken them almost two seasons to learn how to play the zone defense as a team and get really good at it before he could bust it out in a playoff series effectively at the right time.

    See, it isn’t just about individual players getting better and reaching their peak. Its about a team learning to play together and adding wrinkles to their team game. And yes, adding pieces and upgrading.

    Swift, while I agree there’s some merit to the Dallas example, I think you’re mixing up the situations.

    Adding a zone defense in Dallas’ case was an addition to a very strong core. The Mavs had a lot of talent, a legit superstar in his prime, good depth and good coaching. They were a perennial playoff team and borderline contender for a decade because of Dirk. When you have all that, then it’s time to work together, keep a strong core, build those small additions that make a difference in tough games.

    When you have prime Nowitzki, you never tank, it’s not even a question, he was a foundational superstar that pretty much guaranteed a team 45-50 wins every season. Then those small improvements add up more wins and wins in the playoffs. The Spurs kept the same core because of Duncan, Manu, Parker and Kawhi, all superstars in their own right.

    Do you really believe those incremental improvements are going to be enough, if they even happen, to take a 30 to maaaaybe 35 wins team, which is what the Knicks are, to a good level?

    Porzingis doing his year-long fade again after yet another great start is definitely very concerning. Maybe more so because there were all those triumphant pieces early in the year about the changes he’d made to his diet / exercise regimen etc. It was pretty clear they thought they’d figured out his worrying lack of stamina, but it appears not to be the case.

    That said,I came into the year expecting him to have some growing options offensively. Expecting him to step up and become a #1 option on a team where there’s nobody who can generate him any kind of reliable easy looks is a huge ask for a 22 year old. While it’s probably correct to continue to revise downwards the future expectations that he can be a 1A type offensive option, I think overall he’s meeting reasonable expectations this year.

    He may end up more of a second option offensively, who’s a respectable leading man but not one capable of driving an efficient offense, but as a stretch 5 who’s a potentially elite defender in that role I think that’s still a franchise player. Casting him in that #2 offense role also potentially solves the shot selection issues which as Strat has highlighted continue to be very concerning. But I really think we need to see what he looks like on a team with even average guard talent to really get a picture of what his finished offensive game might look like.

    @ 10 – I do. Take Golden State. What was their record in year three of Curry? They were still pretty bad for a few years after drafting Curry. Then they were a playoff team. Then they took the leap to championship team. Yes they had mainly a young core coming up together. But it took several years. They continued to draft (not worrying about tanking to get higher picks) and they built the team slowly. Got better each year. Then they got a guy like Iggy, upgraded their coach, players took leaps and boom they were a championship team, one for the ages. Of course writing it like that makes it sound so easy. But we gotta remember KP is 22 and is in year 3 and its his first year as the number one option and for the last month or so he’s been the number one option with our number two option not playing. We need to cut him and the team some slack.

    Honestly I’m not that worried about KP per se, I’m worried about the fact that Hornacek looks like he doesn’t know how to use him properly.

    the spurs have the 2nd best defense in the league this year…. and they achieved that without kawhi… it is not a shock that our offense doesn’t look good against that kind of team esp when there isn’t anyone… with the exception of beasley … that can create any kind of separation….

    we clearly need a guy who can distribute and create shot opportunities… we have a bunch of catch and shoot guys who are forced to get opportunities themselves a large majority of the time… which is why someone like beasley looks so valuable…

    if you get someone like that who passes more and is more impactful on defense then our roster starts looking pretty good… it’s a personnel issue… and that will only get fixed in the offseason…

    @12

    Ok, we can really agree to disagree then.

    I think the Knicks as currently constructed clearly lack the talent and the assets (and great front office) to acquire such talent. GSW went all in when they had Curry and Klay, found Draymond out of nowhere and kept going.

    Of course I hope it happens, I just would hate to once again be a fan of a team that has no direction outside of “let’s keep doing what we have done and hope this time it works!”

    But anyway, this is where we are. I still think that we should have tanked this year, but right now I feel like we need to chase the 8th seed.

    Almost everyone here predicted thirty wins or less and not because they thought we had talent but let us coaching. So I don’t understand all the complaints paining about Hornacek suddenly. We lost to a good team that played lock down defense on us. I don’t blame the offensive schemes for that. We need more experience as a team (as noted above) we need better guard play and probably another good player

    @17

    I really don’t get this argument. Yes, I for example expected the Knicks to win less than 30 and be terrible. Does that mean I have to be happy about it when it happens? If you expected something to happen, you can’t also be disappointed or angry by the fact that it happened?

    So I don’t understand all the complaints paining about Hornacek suddenly.

    Do you know that the Knicks and Rockets have just about the same 3P%, but the Rockets take MORE THAN DOUBLE the number of 3PA each game?

    Do you understand now?

    The Knicks should definitely shoot more 3’s, but the Rockets also have James Harden and Chris Paul. We have a 19 year old and Jarrett Jack. Most 3 PAs aren’t created by the shooter, they’re the result of someone else getting by their man or drawing a double team. The guys on the Knicks who can score don’t pass.

    I’ve been noticing one thing lately about the Knicks tendency to take a lot of long 2s.

    I’m not sure if the issue is that they aren’t moving the ball quick enough or whether the Knicks players are taking too long to get off their shots, but this is what happens a lot.

    The ball gets to a player in position to take a 3, the defender closes out well, the Knicks player will fake the 3 to get the defender in the air, take a few steps forward and get off an open long 2 instead. Courtney Lee does that all the time.

    An open 2 may or may not be better than a strongly contested 3, but the goal it to get an open 3, a shot at the basket, or to draw a foul. If you are taking a long 2 (even if you are pretty open), the defense has typically won that possession. The ball either has to get to the shooter faster so he’s open for a 3, the player has to get the shot off quicker, or he should probably be driving to the basket and trying to draw a foul and not settling for the long 2.

    I think it is time to embrace the tank. This is a really good year to suck as there appear to be a lot of talented players who will be available in the draft. This team is much more enjoyable to watch than recent editions and the players are easy to root for. But, they are not near good enough to contend and it would be far better to get another solid young piece in the draft than win 10-12 more meaningless games.

    I repeat, they still need a competent point guard (20+ years and counting)….

    Do you really believe those incremental improvements are going to be enough, if they even happen, to take a 30 to maaaaybe 35 wins team, which is what the Knicks are, to a good level?

    If you think Porzingis is going to be a franchise player I think the right move is to start building around him and compete the best you can. You can continue adding pieces via trade, free agency, and draft like the Bucks, T-Wolves, 76ers etc.. have been and get there over a 3-4 period as the young players peak. We are behind them because we didn’t have 2 first round picks under Phil, but it’s the same path.

    If you DON’T think Porzingis is going to be a franchise player, you have a different problem because it’s much harder to get the franchise player via trade or free agency than the supporting all stars and role players that will come to play with him. That’s when you have to consider tanking to get a top 5 pick where your chances of getting a franchise player improve. But if you are going to tank, you have to totally tank. The difference between the 10 pick and 14 pick or 8th and 10th is not very significant. I still don’t see us tanking to a top 5 pick

    @25

    That’s my point strato, I agree completely.

    The problem is the Knicks are somewhere down the line on both ends: Porzingis is probably a very good player and a star, but not the transcendent #1 choice that simply brings wins no matter what; the Knicks do suck, but they don’t suck nearly as bad as Atlanta or the other worst teams.

    I just hate being in this limbo.

    I don’t think KP will ever be that kind of superstar. He just doesn’t have it in him. But you can contend with a nice core of dedicated players. Which is why we should play the youngsters more, to build chemistry between them.

    @26

    I agree.

    I’ve been operating under the assumption that we had our franchise player and we just had to be patient and build around him. I’m just as aware as everyone else of his shortcomings as a rebounder and his lower TS% compared to some other young stars. However, I did believe he could get to the point where he could score 25 a night with a 60% TS% while also being a plus defender. That’s a damn good player! Now I am less sure. It’s not so much that his TS% is only around average right now. It’s that a big reason it’s that low is that he’s clueless about shot selection. I am beginning to question his basketball IQ in the same way I questioned Melo and other “volume” scorers that never quite grasped that the goal is to score efficiently NOW and work on expanding what you can do efficiently as your skills grow. Maybe some of it is being forced on him because we don’t have a lot of scorers, especially with Hardaway out, but a lot of it is clearly him. He does not know what he’s doing or what he should be trying to do at all. He’s clueless.

    The ball gets to a player in position to take a 3, the defender closes out well, the Knicks player will fake the 3 to get the defender in the air, take a few steps forward and get off an open long 2 instead. Courtney Lee does that all the time.

    +1000. Courtney Lee is the worst at this, and Jack/Frank are close. Lee probably passes up 2 3PA/game.

    I’m definitely worried about KP’s shot selection, and I also think he thinks he’s much better 1-on-1 than he actually is, especially off the dribble. He’ll reach his offensive ceiling much sooner if he comes to terms with the fact that he’s Dirk-like, and not Durant-like. I think he thinks he’s the latter. Much of this comes down to coaching –> Hornacek has to be the one to tell him this in some way that doesn’t engender bad blood between the two of them.

    That said – when the 2nd highest usage player on the team is no longer in the lineup, and the other guys in the lineup are Lance Thomas, Jarrett Jack, and Courtney Lee, KP IS going to be forced into taking some shots that he otherwise wouldn’t. KP’s TS with THJ is 56 and without him is only 52.

    so maybe we can trade him to Atlanta and then re-sign him as a free agent in 2 years?

    Bruno,I am not saying anyone should be happy about the losing. All I’m asking is why are people complaining about the coach if they thought our talent was too little or too green at the start of the season. We are actually better or similar to what everyone expected at the start of the season, so overall, I don’t think coaching is the issue.

    And Joeles, if you are complaining that Hornacek isn’t D’Antoni, that’s one thIng, but it’s kind of like complaining that KP isn’t Dirk or Ntilikina isn’t Frazier.

    kp’s development has been kind of interesting… there were a few ways it could have gone this year.. the three biggest comps coming in to the year were bosh, lma and dirk…. he has more defensive chops than all of them just due to his height… but i think he’s leaning towards lma at this point….

    which i don’t think is a bad thing… in fact i think you can see a good example of how good lma can be with the right guys surrounding him… another offensive playmaker… willing and able passers at every position…. and kp is ahead in some aspects to lma…. namely 3pt shooting and defense…

    it’s also important to note that kp has the least help out of all those guys as they all had pretty decent pg’s as they were developing… kp hasn’t had that…. so we get him the ball in the post and he’s either trying to back down his guy or get to the hoop and either the doubles are coming as soon as he puts the ball on the floor or he’s having trouble getting closer to the hoop….

    it’s a limitation but it’s more about finetuning his game at this point which basically every big man of his caliber have been able to overcome eventually… dirk didn’t see these kind of doubles until he was well into his prime….

    so yeah… i would not worry about kp…. him just being a better version of lamarcus aldridge isn’t the worst thing in the world…. it’s absolutely a good problem to have since you can at least work with that….

    Remember when we had the actual Mike D’Antoni as coach and then management traded away every asset in the cupboard and still neglected to acquire a PG so instead Toney Douglas was out there trying to run SSOL?

    That shit was pretty Knicksy.

    All of these suggestions about how they should improve the offense….this is why you keep a team together from season to season instead of trading away players and adding a bunch of new players every year. Why do you think the Spurs are so good? They’ve basically had the same team for many many years.

    I used to think this way, but I’m not so sure. The Magic have had the same Gordon-Vucevic-Payton-Fournier core for years and they are awful every year. The Hornets core has stayed together and they never get better. The Wizards core is good but hasn’t improved over time. Meanwhile the Celtics completely turned over their roster this offseason and they’re great. So was Miami as soon as they added LeBron and Bosh, or Cleveland when they added LeBron and Love, or Boston when they added Garnett and Allen.

    The Spurs are great every year because Pop is maybe the best coach ever, and they drafted two superstars. I don’t see any need to keep this mediocre Knick core together. The most likely outcome will be more mediocrity.

    Come to think of it, that should be the team motto each season.

    Knicks 2018-19: The most likely outcome is more mediocrity!

    They continued to draft (not worrying about tanking to get higher picks) and they built the team slowly. Got better each year. Then they got a guy like Iggy, upgraded their coach, players took leaps and boom they were a championship team, one for the ages.

    The Warriors actually tanked pretty famously in 2012 to keep their lottery pick. They rested healthy starters and lost ten out of their last 11 while egregiously trying to lose. And it was undoubtedly the right thing to do. They didn’t contract that “losing cancer”.

    I’m still waiting for someone to explain to me how exactly are Mills / Perry suddenly going to turn into RC Buford, Bob Myers, Masai Ujiri or Daryl Morey.

    The Spurs are great every year because Pop is maybe the best coach ever, and they drafted two superstars.

    I thought Pop’s “in game” use of time outs was extraordinary last night. Two or three times when the Knicks went on little mini runs he called quick time outs fairly early in the game and fixed issues. He didn’t wait. Just a great in game coach. It doesn’t hurt that he has thinking players, but he makes a hell of a Geppetto.

    @36

    The 2o11-2012 warriors tanked because curry got hurt and only played 26 games. If KP had gotten hurt 26 games in we would probably tank as well. Also the tanking didn’t help them very much. The player they tanked for was Barnes who was mediocre until they dropped him in favor of Durant.

    The problem with tanking is that it isn’t in the coach’s or player’s best interest to tank. If Hornacek loses too many games he’ll be out of a job and I’d be surprised if another team hires him. If the players tank, they don’t get their next paycheck. If the GM or president or whoever tries to tank, well how do they force the coach or the players to do that? Do they make mid-season trades for injured players/dump our valuable ones for picks? They risk their jobs too.

    Tanking takes a organizational commitment and risks alienating the players. Right or wrong, it just won’t happen unless it has Dolan’s blessings and a GM hired specifically for the purpose. Dolan probably doesn’t want to tank because more wins = higher ticket prices = more Dolan dollars.

    Anyone have any thoughts on the Knicks going after Tony Snell as a two?

    I’ve seen his name mentioned as a possible pick up, but I don’t know him.

    @40

    But that wasn’t really Hubert’s point, was it? It’s not why they tanked or if the tank helped or not, it’s that tanking does not have this ability to destroy a franchise as people have argued over and over here. It’s a strategy that should be employed in the right situations, not infallible or anything, just a team building strategy that has pros and cons. Even though Barnes didn’t turn out to be a star, you make the decision to tank in their situation every time, let’s not use this hindsight argument of “it didn’t matter in the end”.

    “We are behind them because we didn’t have 2 first round picks under Phil”

    Sorry strato, but this pisses me off every time you say this. Phil could have acquired a first round pick and young players for melo instead of going with the MMM, but he didn’t. So it’s on him that he didn’t have first round picks for 2 years.

    So, today the Knicks need to simply double the number of three pointers attempted (while apparently also assuming that the team will continue to make them at the same rate), and they become the Houston Rockets? Sure, they should shoot more three pointers, but that’s not the main issue with the Knicks.

    A couple of weeks ago, someone said just trade for Avery Bradley and, boom, 50 wins.

    This team needs MORE young (under 25) talent. Play and evaluate the young talent. Someone mentioned Toronto a day or two ago and showed Ujiri’s recent drafts in the mid to late round. No need to tank, right? Except that he already had at least two young stars in place in Lowry (2006) and DeRozan (2009, 9th pick). Let’s look at right now with the current Knicks.

    The Knicks don’t have two young stars yet. Maybe one (KP, but lots of angst about him right now). Maybe Frank in a couple of years. Maybe Willy (but he doesn’t play). Maybe none.

    Get more young talent, then look to add a vet or two and learn to “win.” Get Hornacek on board with the soft tank (trade vets, give young guys lots of playing time, losses will probably follow).

    “KP’s TS with THJ is 56 and without him is only 52.”

    I think this is the case because of the annual hot start/fade moreso than Timmy’s chucking presence or lack thereof

    I think the Spurs play excellent d against the 3pt shot, but yes, a penetrator would help set up our shooters more.

    I’m honestly not that worried. A #10 pick in the next draft will be fine, and I like that the team gives a damn. Horny isn’t blowing anyone away, but cmon, he doesn’t have much to work with. I’m willing to give him some time.

    I’d like to sell high on Beasley, though. The Blazers would like to get under the tax line and might trade Vonleh and a 2nd round pick to us for Beas. They could use some bench scoring for the playoffs.

    I thought Pop’s “in game” use of time outs was extraordinary last night. Two or three times when the Knicks went on little mini runs he called quick time outs fairly early in the game and fixed issues. He didn’t wait. Just a great in game coach. It doesn’t hurt that he has thinking players, but he makes a hell of a Geppetto.

    It is especially impressive considering that they have less timeouts to work with now.

    But that wasn’t really Hubert’s point, was it? It’s not why they tanked or if the tank helped or not, it’s that tanking does not have this ability to destroy a franchise as people have argued over and over here.

    Tanking for 2 weeks is not the same as tanking for 2+ years. For all the hoopla surrounding Philly, they are 17-19 and I wouldn’t give them more than a 40% chance of cracking the top 3-4 in the Eastern conference in the next 2-3 years. Don’t get me wrong, I would rather be them than us right now, but it’s far from certain that this is all going to work out for them.

    One point worth noting — if not for the institutional tanking in Philly, KP might be playing next to Embiid right now — it was specifically because of tanking that KP wanted no part of Philly.

    Sorry strato, but this pisses me off every time you say this. Phil could have acquired a first round pick and young players for melo instead of going with the MMM, but he didn’t. So it’s on him that he didn’t have first round picks for 2 years.

    What Phil could have done with Melo is a different discussion and imo not the correct way to think about the rebuild.

    A team has assets. Some of those assets are players and some are picks. They are just different types of assets. For example, we could trade Frank for a first round pick, but that’s not improving our position. It’s just changing the form the asset is in.

    Phil theoretically could have traded Melo, but we don’t know exactly what he could have gotten back. The Bulls variation involved taking back Boozer’s salary (which Phil did not want) and was never verified. In the end, for the Melo asset, we got Kanter, McBuckets, and an early second round pick. We will see what we do with those.

    The 2 first round picks we were missing when Phil took over were independent extremely important assets and would be part of anyone’s thinking.

    One point worth noting — if not for the institutional tanking in Philly, KP might be playing next to Embiid right now — it was specifically because of tanking that KP wanted no part of Philly.

    @49 +1

    The same is true of free agents and even trades. When a quality player is available for a trade, their agent will guide any deal towards one of the teams the player wants to play for by telling the unattractive ones that there’s no way he’ll resign with them.

    @49

    One point worth noting — if not for the institutional tanking in Philly, KP might be playing next to Embiid right now — it was specifically because of tanking that KP wanted no part of Philly.

    Possibly. But also, if not for the institutional tanking in Philly they might not even have had the chance to draft KP. They also might not ever have gotten Embiid. Or Simmons. Or Fultz. Or the picks they have coming up this year?

    Perhaps if they’d kept trying to “win,” they would have been stuck in late lottery hell with a mildly bad team. Who knows?

    I think KP will be fine – he’s not going to be Durant on offense, but Durant is probably a top 10 talent of all time, and clearly one of the top 3 players in the NBA now — I don’t think even in our wettest of KP dreams did we think he’d be as good as Durant.

    Truth is – it’s hard to be the focal point of the defense on every play. He undoubtedly has improved a lot from last year to this year, and he’s still got a lot to learn. Just in the past few weeks I think he’s gotten better passing out of the double and also making quick decisions when he gets the ball in the post. Last night he got the ball on the roll near the foul line instead of on the perimeter — and took some tough shots — next year or the year after he’ll either be playing center and hopefully have a better run to the rim, or he’ll know how to read the help and pass to the corner or the baseline cutter.

    he wants to be good and that’s a huge part of the solution. he also needs some continuity in terms of coaching staff and offensive systems — he’s had Derek Fisher, Kurt Rambis, and now Hornacek in his first 3+ seasons, different systems, personalities, etc. Dirk had Don Nelson, an actual offensive genius, for the first 7 years of his career.

    @53

    Exactly. They traded the opportunity to be the Charlotte Hornets North for the team they have now.

    Even if they never become better than the 4th best team in the east in the next 3 years, who cares? Simmons is 21, Embiid is 23 and Fultz is 20. Now they have a decade to build around these guys, now they can follow the beautiful pipe dream of win trades, make smart signings and draft well in the later picks.

    There’s no way Philly would have been in such good position were not for tanking so many years, and one of the reasons they are not as well as they could have been is because the ownership got scared and put one of the most incapable GMs in the league in place of Hinkie.

    By the way, I’ll say this once more so people finally understand: I have never said the Knicks should process-tank. It’s sucking for less than 50 games to get a better pick now. That’s it. How is that anywhere close to getting Sixers comparisons I’ll truly never understand.

    The Spurs were fronting KP all night, and not necessarily with big men. And then having another player hedge over so the Knicks wouldn’t attempt lob passes over his initial defender.

    It’s on Hornacek to figure this out. I know Pop is a genius and all , but you have to be able to punish a team that’s basically playing 3 on 4.

    @43

    When used strategically and at the right times tanking can be effective. It worked that year in GS because with Curry out they didn’t really need to try very hard to be bad. If Curry hadn’t been hurt I don’t think they would have tanked and probably would have won 40 games. We are in the same boat. As long as our star is healthy we can’t realistically win less than 30 games without intentionally getting in the way of KP’s development. If he got hurt then I’d be all aboard cutting our losses and maximizing our draft pick.

    Once a budding superstar, which KP most definitely is, is in his third season it gets very hard to continue to tank because their mere presence elevates your team above the worst teams in the league and tanking is only worth it if it nets you a top 3 pick. Once Durant was in his third season OKC was done tanking, GS would have been done tanking in Curry’s third season if he hadn’t gotten hurt, Milwaukee was done tanking by Giannis’s third season. This is when it makes sense to try and win.

    I think what you guys are missing is we dont’ have the skill to MAKE all those extra 3’s without our 2 best shooters. THJ might be back in a week. Trent Tucker retired 20 years ago.

    Jan. 23 is the date when I will officially start judging Horny, for good or bad. That’s the day our schedule evens out between home and road games. Right now I think the team has played above its talent, but with all the home games it’s hard to tell what our “true” performance has been.

    yikes, just noticed, we’re playing a hot wizards team that’s had two days off at home…

    the next 10 days might be a little rough for our guys…we may very well be looking at a 1 win in 10 games scenario…

    By the way, I’ll say this once more so people finally understand: I have never said the Knicks should process-tank. It’s sucking for less than 50 games to get a better pick now. That’s it. How is that anywhere close to getting Sixers comparisons I’ll truly never understand.

    It’s not the same thing. It’s the right thing to do in terms of maximizing long term team building, but it’s not a zero cost strategy in other ways.

    1. Dolan has to be willing to accept lower attendance, lower ratings on MSG, and lower merchandise sales for a year or more while the team is tanking.

    2. Hornacek has to to risk getting fired or at least dealing with a blow to his reputation.

    3. Mills/Perry have to to risk getting fired or at least dealing with a blow to their reputations.

    4. Veteran players in contract or option years have to sit on the bench and potentially cost themselves money while young players are getting court time. Other veterans and even some young players will get pissed off because inferior players are getting their minutes or because they are sick of losing.

    5. Porzingis, Frank, and any other young players will have their development slowed down by not playing in important games and potentially the playoffs.

    These are all short term downsides. The better draft pick is a long term upside. But unless everyone is on board it’s going to be a mess. That’s why teams wait until the last few weeks to tank when they know they are out of it and the downsides to the franchise and some players are limited enough that everyone just sort of gets it. The true all out tanks are usually 1 year affairs like we did to get KP. Anything that happens after that is more random and related to injuries. Like if KP got hurt to start the season and missed 50 games, it would help us long term, but hitting him in the knee with a crowbar is not a good plan. 🙂

    The true all out tanks are usually 1 year affairs like we did to get KP. Anything that happens after that is more random and related to injuries. Like if KP got hurt to start the season and missed 50 games, it would help us long term, but hitting him in the knee with a crowbar is not a good plan. 🙂

    oh man, i thought we may have the beginnings of a solid plan there for a second…dejectedly puts away crowbar 🙁

    I think what you guys are missing is we dont’ have the skill to MAKE all those extra 3’s without our 2 best shooters. THJ might be back in a week. Trent Tucker retired 20 years ago.

    We’re dead last in 3PA in the entire league. We might not have the personnel to play exactly like the Rockets, but our current rate is inexcusable. I don’t know what Hornacek’s deal is–he’s talked the talk about avoiding long twos in the past. He’s either not emphasizing shot selection at all, or players aren’t listening to him. Both would indicate a pretty big problem. I don’t think I’m in favor of firing him just yet because we at least know he’s familiar with these concepts and a coaching carousel is generally a bad look, but it’s been a highly disappointing year from him.

    Once a budding superstar, which KP most definitely is, is in his third season it gets very hard to continue to tank because their mere presence elevates your team above the worst teams in the league and tanking is only worth it if it nets you a top 3 pick.

    KP’s numbers simply don’t support the idea of him single-handedly preventing a tank, which is actually too bad. In the beginning of the year they certainly did and that’s why I argued that our inability to tank this year was, overall, a good thing. Now he’s back to basically being Melo with good defense. Useful player for sure, but if the front office/coaching staff wanted to take a few measures to secure a better draft pick it wouldn’t be very hard. I understand if they want to wait for THJ’s return before they do anything drastic but they need to be ready. Oh, and Lee should absolutely be traded regardless.

    I think Hornacek is a smart guy but a bad basketball coach. He’s said it a bunch of times to the media what we complain about. He’s always harping on not shooting enough 3pters, playing faster and taking too many mid-range jumpers. When he was first hired here he did an interview talking about EFG% and how inefficient mid-range jumpers are. So I think he’s smart and knows how offense is supposed to be played in today’s NBA, heck in Phoenix his teams played small and took alot of 3pters. But he’s obviously not a good enough basketball coach to be able to implement his strategies and philosophies with a roster that is not built to play in today’s NBA because of the awful PG situation and abundance of old-school big men.

    Timmy attempts 3’s at a much higher rate than anyone else on the roster for what it’s worth.

    “I’m still waiting for someone to explain to me how exactly are Mills / Perry suddenly going to turn into RC Buford, Bob Myers, Masai Ujiri or Daryl Morey.”

    Start praying……hard

    Tall Skinny Melo is now down to a very Melo-esque .541 TS%, fueled by his crummy .485 eFG%.

    “Dirk had Don Nelson, an actual offensive genius, for the first 7 years of his career.”
    Funny, melo had Nelson and Dantoni and still couldn’t figure out the right way to play. However, ever since their loss to the Knicks, melo has been buying in to the role Dantoni had in mind for him. He’s finanally gotten out of standing at the elbow calling for the ball and basically been embracing the role of spot up 3 pt shooter/space creator.
    I’m telling you, I could tell by the look on his face that he was demoralized after that loss. Soon after I saw an interview where he finally seemed to get it.

    @66
    Indeed. What an ugly situation.

    Years ago when my great grandmother died we had a situation roughly similar b/c of significant money, property, and items being claimed by lots of people and a will changed shortly before death…

    This whole business with the Sager family is very sad.

    i saw this and was heartbroken. Craig Sr seemed like such a good guy with a good heart and to have this happen is rough.

    Just read quotes from Hornacek after last night’s game, it’s frustrating to read because he seems to understand the issues regarding the team and specifically KP but as a coach can’t seem to get it thru to his team.

    This whole business with the Sager family is very sad.

    Damn that is unfortunate. I have worked on a couple of deceased estate matters where family members are disputing wills. Always ugly, and the only real winners are the lawyers.

    I think it has already been touched on, but in our criticisms of KP, I think we have played down how good the Spurs are defensively. Weigh that up with how meh we can be and it’s not surprising. I think the positive thing with KP is he is acknowledging what he needs to do be better. We saw to an extent him making an effort to improve aspects of his game (i.e. quicker decision making/shots etc.) against NO. He just now needs to put that together on a consistent basis.

    The Knicks are 18th in the NBA in 3pt %. Shooting more 3s might help, but not a lot.

    Regarding the challenge of tanking with KP… He’s just not that good, guys. NOt yet. If you just didn’t waste money on Hardaway and took Kanter and Lee off the team, we probably would not have 10 wins yet.

    This team is not winning because it’s just so overflowing with young talent that it can’t help but win. It’s close to the opposite. Vets are carrying us to wins. There is very little prospect of significant improvement for this team.

    KP’s own comments are a legitimate source for optimism, and we’re lucky he’s being groomed in an era in which shooting efficiency is emphasized more than it ever has been. There is definitely still an infatuation with pointzzz, but 15 years ago most people would’ve seen his 24 PPG and figured he’s an awesome finished product. Now I have at least some hope that someone, be it the Knicks, his representation, or whoever, will tell him this is something he needs to work on. If not you can probably go ahead and add 15 years or so to our title drought.

    The Knicks are 18th in the NBA in 3pt %. Shooting more 3s might help, but not a lot

    Toronto is 26th in 3PT% and 7th in attempts, on their way to the 4th best offense in the league. Houston is 14th in 3PT% and 1st in attempts, on their way to the 2nd best offense in the league. It really is just the way to run a modern offense these days (with some notable exceptions that we would never be able to emulate e.g. the Spurs). Even mediocre three point attempts give you a better return than good-not-great twos.

    Would it make the Knicks a playoff juggernaut? Hell nah. But if we want to instill good habits in KP (and other young players) while also winning as many games as possible, we should be encouraging these guys to shoot some damn threes.

    thenoblefacehumper but 15 years ago most people would’ve seen his 24 PPG and figured he’s an awesome finished product.

    I think if he wasn’t trending down, following a pattern from previous seasons, people would be more optimistic. Here’s KP’s TS% game by game: https://i.imgur.com/Mdsu4sP.png

    Toronto is 26th in 3PT% and 7th in attempts, on their way to the 4th best offense in the league. Houston is 14th in 3PT% and 1st in attempts, on their way to the 2nd best offense in the league.

    I mean it’s possible shooting more threes would improve the team’s offense. It’s possible what works for Houston and Toronto wouldn’t work for NY due to roster composition. If we were shooting at their volume, our 3 pt% might get a lot worse. Toronto also had the #6 offense last year while taking 7.5 fewer 3s per game than this year, so the increase in 3PAr probably isn’t that big a factor. I don’t really know. The only thing I feel confident in saying is that the effect would be marginal.

    Comments are closed.