Knicks Morning News (2017.08.14)

  • [NYTimes] Red Sox 3, Yankees 2 | 10 Innings: Aroldis Chapman’s Woes Doom Yankees to Series Loss Against Red Sox
    (Monday, August 14, 2017 6:05:33 AM)

    Boston scored on a home run off Chapman in the ninth inning to tie the game and pushed across the deciding run in the 10th after he hit one batter with a pitch and walked another.

  • 87 replies on “Knicks Morning News (2017.08.14)”

    Well, you know its the dog days when the only article in the queue is a baseball recap.

    Which is weird, because we still might trade Carmelo Anthony, but it sure seems like there’s a good chance he starts the season with us. Man that sucks.

    Melo ain’t leaving. KP is going to come back from the summer a superstar and the Knicks will compete for a top seed through the early months. If Melo doesn’t get traded in the off-season, he’s not leaving town.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y96z2kzt2Rs

    Here’s a fun video of KP/Willy hooking up for buckets.

    In all seriousness I believe KP and Willy Hernangomez will be too good for this team to be bad at basketball next season. They’re high IQ guys who, now that KP has a more muscular build, seem to have their bodies under control. Willy was excellent last season as a rookie, and if he gets the turnover and foul issues down, you have a .200 WS/48 level player. We don’t know how the point guards will play, but we do know that Courtney Lee, Tim Hardaway Jr, Carmelo Anthony, Kristaps Porzingis, Willy Hernangomez, Kyle O’Quinn, Michael Beasley, and Mindaugas Kuzminskas is enough firepower for a good offense. If Hornacek does the smart thing and makes KP a roll man who isolates and shoots 3s on occasion, he’d essentially have Amar’e Stoudemire without the glaring deficiencies that kept him from being a superstar.

    I’m all in on KP and Willy and that starts as early as this season for me. As fun as Michael Porter Jr, Mo Bamba, and Luka Doncic sound, if we’re bad enough to land them it’s because KP is a fraud. I refuse to believe KP is a fraud. And it’s also factual that Derrick Rose sunk this offense and kept us from being a top 12 unit. No more Rose means more wins.

    We’ll need vast improvement from KP and Willy if we’re ever going to do anything remotely interesting with this core, so I can’t get on the Mills/Perry regime too much for not tanking even if the Hardaway contract is a disaster.

    However, I cannot see Carmelo Anthony being a part of a functioning Knicks team this year. He was genuinely bad last year and I think it’s unrealistic to think his age-33 season will be better than his age-32 season. A 30% USG rate with a .535 TS% and a low AST% to boot is simply not conducive to good offense. He will never accept being a sixth man, or even a reduced role as a starter, just for the sake of developing young players who don’t yet have his “superstar” cachet. So far I like Perry’s “no deal is better than a bad deal” approach, but it would be a huge bummer to have Carmelo on the team.

    @6, you’re dreaming. Don’t you know that all of our young players will almost certainly produce at the level they did last year? That’s why Ron Baker will never be a good NBA player at any price, TH2 will never produce to the level of his contract, and KP will continue to be a league-average player. Our only hopes are Dotson and Frank.

    It would be a bummer to have melo in the team but we may have better options if we wait till the all star break. He would basically be a half year rental to a team making a post season push as he can opt out and still get a 3 year lucrative contract from someone … the spurs unbelievably gave a three year deal to gasol for $48m!!

    I could see melo opening his options to teams like okc and even Cleveland, maybe pels because I think he fits well there, the clips. Portland I doubt would work. But the point is starting the season with him may not be the worst thing in the world if it gets us more assets.

    The straw man slaying is beneath you Z Man. No one has said those things. The beef is with the overpays.

    If Melo played and produced at the level he did in 2015-16, he’d be a perfectly fine member of this current team in a starting role, probably at reduced minutes and maybe a point or two lower usage. If he plays like he did last year, his role should be significantly reduced, regardless of the PR implications.

    Gasol can score efficiently, protect the rim, pass and rebound, so he’s not an example of an overpay.

    The third year is non guaranteed iirc which makes the Gasol contract significantly better; maybe even below market given how productive he has been at such an advanced age

    It’s not in the realm of worst contracts like Noah but it’s a lot to give a guy at that age.

    When you say vast improvement, I don’t think you’re really grasping how close these guys are. Willy Hernangomez doesn’t have to improve as a scorer or as a rebounder. It would be nice, but having a .533 eFG% and grabbing 13.6 rebounds per 36 is great already. His problems, in terms of tangible production (i.e. I’m not going to discuss defense), are his turnover issues and his foul issues. Those are problems that tend to fix themselves as you age. If he cuts his foul and turnover rate in half, which are likely developments, he is an unquestioned All Star in this league. I would take up a bet that Willy Hernangomez outperforms everybody in the Boston front court this season, and that’s a team that will likely win 50 games and the Atlantic division. While KP gets most of the recognition, Willy Hernangomez is likely to be our true superstar from a production standpoint.

    Kristaps Porzingis is a more interesting study. The problems with his game last year were related to his strength, conditioning, triangle, and our terrible perimeter defense. If we put KP in pick-option plays, he’s a high IQ guy. He’ll know when to roll, when to pop (both should be unstoppable single covers for him), and when to dish. Either way, putting him in the pick and roll more times a game will very likely give his scoring efficiency a significant boost. I’d say he could reach Amar’e Stoudemire level efficiency/usage combinations as a dive man. Rebounding won’t be his strong suit, but it doesn’t have to be with Hernangomez grabbing close to 14 rebounds per 36. If he can build on his already good rim protection, that should compensate for his rebounding problems the way it does for Marc Gasol.

    A lot of this stuff is projection, but basketball is a simple sport when you’re smart and talented. We just so happen to employ two of the smartest and most talented bigs in the league.

    @11 mostly tongue-in-cheek, but lots of folks here have said pretty definitively that Ron Baker will suck based on how he played last year, and some said that TH2 will not improve much, if at all.

    And there’s also the mentality that once you “overpay,” subsequent production doesn’t matter. That’s incredibly foolish. Is it better when a team makes a good value signing but then the player goes on to underperform even the bargain price?

    Everyone knows that “buy low, sell high” is the secret to business success. But it’s better to miss the bottom on a great investment than to buy low and sell lower. What I’m saying is that it’s possible that Hardaway and Baker turn out to be profitable investments, even with the unnecessary overpay and player options. An overpay in and of itself doesn’t make a deal a bad one.

    And yes, I’m aware of the “you need winning deals to build a winner” argument, no need for JK47 to rehash it. I just want to settle in and see some exciting, progressive ball played at MSG by the home team for a change, and think that the deals made this year further that cause.

    If the alternative is taking on guys like Ryan Anderson, I’m perfectly fine with keeping Melo and letting his inefficient usage give us ping pong balls yet again.

    I don’t think you’re really grasping how close these guys are. Willy Hernangomez doesn’t have to improve as a scorer or as a rebounder… a true superstar from a production standpoint.

    Unfortunately, though, Willy only played 19 minutes a game and though the /36ers argue that minutes doesn’t effect efficiency, we saw first hand that David Lee had his most efficient season in NY at the age that Willy is now (a much better season than Willy put up) and though he was a good player, and in fact an all star for us, his TS% went down every year along with his rebounding rate, and the reason he stayed highly valuable was because D’Antoni ran the offense through him, making him a playmaking forward while padding his scoring stats with 7SOL.

    Willy seems like a guy that can have sustained value, but to say he’s on the cusp of superstardome is very, very rosy-eyed.

    Willy improved his turnover rate a lot in the second half of the season. Arbitrary endpoint caveat, but check it out:
    First 41 games: 21.5 TOV%
    Last 41 games: 13.6 TOV%

    That’s a significant improvement.

    Well, maybe I’m being too stubborn, but I’m in the “mentality that once you “overpay,” subsequent production doesn’t matter.” camp.
    Sure, it would be better that they perform to, or over, the overpay than not, and I have nothing against Baker or Hardaway and will root for them, but it’s still bad asset management, especially when it’s a continuous pattern, not just an anomaly. Add in that they both have player options and Baker has a NTC, and it drives me nuts that people who’s only job is putting a basketball team together can be so careless.
    And why haven’t we signed Briante Weber yet damn it!

    I love the optimism, but ‘he’s very likely to half his turnover and foul rates’ coupled with ‘if he does he’s a sure fire all star’ equals ‘he’s very likely a sure fire all star’. I think that is a reach, respectfully, albeit I would love it if you’re right.

    I think we all can agree that what KP needs more than anything is a real PG. He was clearly frustrated last year playing with head-down-no-pass Rose. It’s like playing wing in hockey with a center who just rushes the net and rarely passes even when triple teamed.

    I do believe after seeing him last season that Willy Hernangomez is very likely to be a surefire All Star (production wise; who knows if he’ll get the votes). He was already good at basketball as a rookie, and if he were to receive consistent minutes from the beginning of the season I believe he would have been the rookie of the year.

    @18

    What most people said is that there’s a chance those players won’t improve. Do you disagree with that?

    People mostly answered to posts that took it as a sure thing that guys like Baker, THJ will improve. That could be true, it could also not happen at all. THJ has shown improvement over the years so there’s reason to believe he’ll be at least decent, but Baker has shown very little and I would be really surprised if he improves to the level of a decent starter.

    Development of young players is far from a sure thing, and if you base your predictions that the Knicks will be better this year because 4+ players will show sustained improvement, you’re most likely to be wrong than right just by playing the odds.

    @24 – yes a real point guard would improve KP and the entire offense immensely.
    Too bad they don’t have one on the roster. Sessions may be adequate in stretches and Frank is a complete unknown, but somehow I think he’ll end up at the 2 based on descriptions of his game.

    Jettisoning D Rose is most definitely addition by subtraction.

    Who would be a reasonably attainable pg to pair with kp?

    I wasn’t opposed to the Sessions signing, but I don’t understand the case for preferring him to Rondo at the same price. Rondo’s flaws as a player and person are well-known, but I continue to think an “assist hunter” at point guard is actually just what this team could use.

    Baker has shown very little and I would be really surprised if he improves to the level of a decent starter.

    Baker does not have to be a decent starter to justify his contract. He just has to be a decent rotation player.

    What most people said is that there’s a chance those players won’t improve. Do you disagree with that?

    What is meant by “a chance?” The opinions were varied as to the magnitude of the chance. Is it 1-10? 2-1? 200-1?

    I think Hornacek and Mills believe that he will improve based on their direct experience with him. They obviously could be dead wrong. Yes, he’s overpaid for now. In the worst case scenario, he blossoms into a $10+ million player, the player option is a killer. In the second worst case, he plays like he did last year or worse and opts in, making it a $6 million error (most would agree that a 2-year guaranteed deal at the minimum was fair, right?) But, giving Hornacek and Mills the benefit of the doubt, the most likely case is that he produces somewhere between a replacement-level player and a somewhat below league average player. There is also a goodwill aspect to the deal in that if he slightly overperforms he will either opt in anyway or opt out and cut a fair deal to return ot the team that believed in him.

    Whether it’s in a vacuum or as part of a pattern, it’s really not that consequential of a deal. The Timmy signing is far more risky. It’s unlikely that Tim plays like a $25+ million player. But if he plays to his contract, he’s a very good fit for this team. If RoLo’s contract is prorated in today’s cap-dollars, they are similarly valued. And he’s much cheaper than Greg Monroe was when signed. I don’t think it’ too hard to imagine that he will play better than either of those guys for his position.

    The list of young, athletic guards with a .520 eFG% and an over .100 WS48 is pretty short. We overpaid to fill a pressing need.

    I just don’t know how many minutes the Knicks are going to get out of Sessions. There’s roughly 4,000 PG minutes to be doled out, and Sessions is good for what, maybe 1600? That’s a lot of minutes left over for guys who are not really NBA point guards.

    well, knicks haven’t done anything too crazy for the last few days – and, i have doubts the melo drama will ever end prior to our sun exploding in a supernova…

    so, i’ll bite on the yanks…

    all of last year they had 16 blown saves – season to date they’re already at 20…figured the offense would struggle again this year, but, never in a million years would i have anticipated the yanks bullpen to struggle so badly finishing out games…

    still overall very optimistic towards the current season – it’s just come 8th/9th inning with a lead – not so confident as i once was 🙂

    used to love seeing chapman walk out the pen towards the mound – now i start looking for stuff to watch on another channel…

    I just don’t know how many minutes the Knicks are going to get out of Sessions. There’s roughly 4,000 PG minutes to be doled out, and Sessions is good for what, maybe 1600? That’s a lot of minutes left over for guys who are not really NBA point guards.

    We certainly have talent in the frontcourt, but if Ntilikina is not ready, our offense might turn into a turnover-fest (even if mildly efficient), due to the lack of playmakers.

    Little off topic but I thought I’d ask considering its the dog days.

    I want to cut the cable so to speak. Whats’ the best way to watch the Knicks without a subscription to TWC/Spectrum cable TV. I’m just going to keep the wireless internet. I have a hacked fire stick, but was wondering if there was cheaper, maybe a bit more reliable way to watch MSG.

    thx

    Birthday shout out to my cat, Knicki. world’s greatest cat that is named after a shitty basketball team

    used to love seeing chapman walk out the pen towards the mound – now i start looking for stuff to watch on another channel…

    He’s been incredibly frustrating this season, but I’m not ready to do anything drastic based on 34 innings. His peripheral numbers are at least relatively close to where they usually are (2.37 FIP) and nothing seems mechanically wrong. But yeah, the bullpen has been way shakier than it should be. I’m hoping it’s mostly random stuff that takes care of itself.

    There’s roughly 4,000 PG minutes to be doled out, and Sessions is good for what, maybe 1600?

    If we’re lucky. He’s hit that mark once in the last four seasons. We’re probably going to see a lot of Scrappiness and Hard Work at point guard this season.

    @30

    You said some people believe Baker has no chance at being a good player. I’ve replied he has a chance of not being even a decent player.

    What’s the odds? No idea, I’m not a clairvoyant. All I’m saying is it’s reasonable to believe all the things you said, admittedly tongue-in-cheek, can possibly happen.

    I’ll give the management, Hornacek and the players all the benefit of the doubt they want, and you can bet I’d rather be wrong and happy about a good young team making strides than right and watching another horrible 30 win season. The way I think is just that I’d rather see either substantial improvement or complete ineptitude, which are, as the NBA is currently constructed, the best positions to be in. What I see from the Knicks is neither, and that’s what I don’t like.

    Frank Ntilikina is going to surprise a lot of people. I doubt he’s going to be excellent out the gate, but his presence is going to help our defense more than it hurts our offense.

    Honestly, with the point guard position in the state it is in, we might need Dad Melo now more than ever.

    OK, let’s talk hypotheticals. Let’s say the Rockets can’t find a taker for Ryan Anderson, but Melo sticks to his “Houston or nothing” trade request. Houston offers us a deal of Ryno, Ariza, a 2018 2nd rounder, and a 2020 1st rounder (top 10 protected).

    The Knicks’ choice therefore becomes:
    1) Accept Houston’s offer
    2) Keep Melo until at least next offseason

    Under this scenario, Melo refuses to waive the NTC for anyone but Houston until at least next summer. You also don’t know whether he plans to pick up his 2018-19 option. But Melo does promise to show up for camp this fall if he’s not traded, so you can’t bench him or send him home. He’ll be in uniform, so he has to play.

    Which of these two bad options would people choose?

    Keep Melo. It’s a no-brainer. Besides, I am highly doubtful that Houston agrees to include Ariza in any deal. He’s a key player for them if they want to challenge the Warriors.

    They pretty much have to give us Ariza or Gordon (plus Ryno) in any Melo trade. Otherwise the salaries won’t work. Tucker, Nene, and Tarik Black are the other options, but they can’t be traded until Dec. 15.

    Melo will not want to leave New York after KP and Willy Hernangomez show that they are excellent ball players. He will be comfortable, the Knicks will be winning, and the narrative will shift to “the Knicks without Phil Jackson are a winner; Melo was right to wait Phil out” and that sort of stuff. This is the irony of being a Knicks fan.

    I’m down for the entropy plan again. Just sit back and let this shit decay.

    It sucks to have Melo on the team, but whatever. Let him do his thing so there aren’t any distractions, quietly and slowly reduce his playing time to under 30 and let’s see what happens.

    Enough with the bad contracts.

    “This is the irony of being a Knicks fan.”
    This is one of the many ironies of being a Knicks fan – there I fixed it for you

    Aside from the two draft picks we’d pick up, the arguments for taking that Houston deal are:

    1) We won’t have to watch Melo anymore.
    2) Ryno and Ariza won’t take as many shots away from our young guys as Melo will.
    3) Melo is still good enough that he’ll win a few games by himself, which hurts the tank.
    4) Horny can start running a more uptempo offense without a plodding ballstopper around.
    5) If Melo opts in next year, then Ryno’s deal is only one year longer.
    6) Ariza might be flippable for a small asset at the deadline.

    I’m not saying that’s the better option, but it’s definitely worth considering.

    If Morey makes that deal, he will lose all cred as a GM. It’s just a ridiculously dumb trade for Houston. They need Ariza more than they need Melo. I wouldn’t be terribly upset if we did it, but would not do it myself.

    I’d take the trade. Ariza should be easy to flip for anything else, the picks aren’t great but at least it’s something, and it frees the team to play much more optimal lineups which can actually be decent at defense for once (start Sessions / THJ / Ariza / KP / Willy with Anderson, Ntilikina and O’Quinn being the first men off the bench).

    I think Ariza won’t get traded as he is a valuable piece, and I’d rather deal with anyone else that has actual young players or better picks, but at this point I’m convinced KP needs to be the first option of this team one way or another.

    I’d do the trade to end the risk of 2 more years of melo. If he stays on this team another year, there is almost no chance he opts of of 27 mil for 1 year.
    You could definitely get a 1st round pick for Ariza, and it’s possible to deal Anderson at the deadline in year 2 – if not he’s an expiring contract after year 2.

    A@ 49 I think you forgot Lee would still be on the team.

    @50

    I kinda did hahaha
    not the most memorable dude on our team, that’s for sure. I forgot about Noah too.

    The Rockets don’t actually want to employ Carmelo Anthony. They wouldn’t be worried about holding onto Ariza if they were getting back Jimmy Butler, Gordon Hayward, or Paul George. Darryl Morey probably sees Melo as a salary dump. That’s why Melo won’t go to Houston; because their GM doesn’t value him enough to get the trade done.

    @50

    I don’t think we could get a 1st rounder for half a season of Ariza. He’s 32, on an expiring deal, and is very limited on offense. His best comp is PJ Tucker, another aging 3-and-D wing on an expiring deal who was traded at the deadline. He fetched two back-end 2nd rounders. That’s probably what we’d be looking at for Ariza.

    If Morey makes that deal, he will lose all cred as a GM. It’s just a ridiculously dumb trade for Houston. They need Ariza more than they need Melo. I wouldn’t be terribly upset if we did it, but would not do it myself.

    I think is the other way around.

    If the trade doesn’t happen because Morey doesn’t want to trade Ariza for Melo, he will be murdered by the media. Despite all the advanced stats, this is still a league where player X is better than player Y because “5 rings is better than 3”.

    I’ll keep Melo.
    A Knicks with Melo is better than having Ryan Anderson and Noah.
    Just keep Melo. Melo could be a bad player but a bad Melo is a lot better than Ryan Anderson.

    I think is the other way around.

    If the trade doesn’t happen because Morey doesn’t want to trade Ariza for Melo, he will be murdered by the media. Despite all the advanced stats, this is still a league where player X is better than player Y because “5 rings is better than 3?.

    Totally disagree, especially since your premise of “trading Ariza for Melo” makes little sense. It would be trading Anderson, Ariza and 2 picks for Melo. The question (from Morey the analyst’s POV) is: does the trade make us more likely to beat the Warriors? The answer is clearly NO. Whatever Melo gives you over Ariza on offense, he gives back on D, especially where D is needed most vs. GSW, on the perimeter. And despite his contract, Ryan Anderson is a net plus player and in his prime (.560 TS%, .117 WS48) while Melo is in decline and not even that good on offense anymore. Houston is clearly in win-now mode, so making a deal just to dump salary without improving the product on the floor is dumb. Melo only helps the team win if Ariza is still there,

    Totally disagree, especially since your premise of “trading Ariza for Melo” makes little sense. It would be trading Anderson, Ariza and 2 picks for Melo. The question (from Morey the analyst’s POV) is: does the trade make us more likely to beat the Warriors? The answer is clearly NO. Whatever Melo gives you over Ariza on offense, he gives back on D, especially where D is needed most vs. GSW, on the perimeter. And despite his contract, Ryan Anderson is a net plus player and in his prime (.560 TS%, .117 WS48) while Melo is in decline and not even that good on offense anymore. Houston is clearly in win-now mode, so making a deal just to dump salary without improving the product on the floor is dumb. Melo only helps the team win if Ariza is still there,

    I agree with everything you said.

    I just don’t agree that the league values Ariza, Anderson and a distant protected 1st more than Melo.

    Whats’ the best way to watch the Knicks without a subscription to TWC/Spectrum cable TV.

    Find a local bar that plays all the games. If you don’t want to drink just get seltzer and tip well, lots of places are fine with that (ask first). That’s basically it unless you grab a pirate stream AFAIK. Not a particularly cheap option.

    Teams have been asking for 2 firsts just to take on Anderson. So we’re taking Melo straight up for ariza?

    I’d do it.

    I think it’s a bad trade for both teams and will never get done. If I’m the Knicks I wait until someone blinks. If I’m the Rockets I wait until something comes along, e.g. the Knicks buy him out.

    Can Knicki play PG?

    LOL

    I guess I’m firmly in the don’t trade Melo camp. I’d hate to see a buyout as well. He can go but not if we have to pay. I’m not paying 60 million or so to watch him come off HOU’s bench. I’m not paying Ryan Anderson 20 million for three years. Melo is close to being a sunk asset but if no one is ready to pay we might as well see if he can function in our rotation.

    I will say that it may be possible for him to blend if some of the other gambles pay off. Other than Melo I think most would agree that we have about as good a core as we’ve had in a while. TH2 looks good compared to Drose no? At least as a *player* (contract not withstanding). We haven’t sacrificed depth this offseason, we have a major wildcard in Frank, two up and coming young bigs, and potentially even some service-able minutes from Noah.

    Melo has his problems but may not be a total douche. He might be willing to move the ball if he has more faith in his teammates. Not a great chance all of this happens but making a bad deal has way more downside.

    You know who we kinda forgot about at PG? Chasson Randle. Now..no one here expects him to make a ginormous leap this season considering the fact that Baker won minutes over him, and he had a pretty bad SL this season. But it is reasonably possible that he improves enough to outplay Sessions & Baker this preseason with more weapons around him than he had in SL. If that happens, I believe we can get positive production from the PG spot with the diversity in each candidate’s games.

    Honestly- though I am happy with signing Sessions as a mentor- each of the 3 kids should be better defensively than Sessions and I would be OK with a rotation of Baker/Randle/Ntilikina because of it. The caveat with that scenario is Sessions is miles ahead of those guys when it comes to running an offense. So, my question is- with KP/WHG/TH2 in tow, should we really value offense more in these formative years from the kids at PG? Baker has shown an ability to run the offense, and the most dynamic thing about our PG candidates is Ntilikina’s wingspan. No matter who plays, we’re not gonna get a whole lot of offense out of that position- so why not let the kids learn how to find their way on offense? If Lee gets traded, I can see Ntilikina getting the bulk of his minutes at the 2 while Sessions plays the most at the 1. But I’m not even sure the team wants trade him anymore.

    And despite his contract, Ryan Anderson is a net plus player and in his prime (.560 TS%, .117 WS48) while Melo is in decline and not even that good on offense anymore

    Ok.

    Chasson should get a chance, he played terribly in the Summer League but I think he’ll be the first up if injuries or something happens. The way I see it the Knicks are gunning for Sessions as the starter and then Ntilikina eventually takes over. Sessions has never played a full season much less as a starter, and I still think the Knicks see Ntilikina as a PG.

    For me, the rotation should be Sessions (25), Ntilikina (15) Baker (8) or something like that, with Ntilikina and Baker taking whatever’s left of the minutes in the 2 position (considering both Lee and THJ might play some 3 too). After the all star break, Frank should be starting over Sessions with the latter becoming a de facto sixth man.

    @63

    all you do is come here and leave a snarky comment when someone says Melo isnt that great? great contribution!

    I don’t think it’s right that they need to add much to Andersons deal to make the salary work – it just has to be within 25%, right? So Andersons deal is almost there and they’ve got a bunch of non-guaranteed deals to make up the rest.

    What matters is then what else we get, and I’ll say again, I just don’t think Houston has enough assets for a fair deal. Teams have (rightly, given the market rate set in the Mozgov dump) been asking for a ton to take Anderson. We should too. So tbey give us, what, a 2020 and 2022 first for taking Anderson. Now – what do we get for giving them Melo? They don’t have anything left to offer…

    Has anyone seen the schedule yet? Bit of a mixed bag, especially with games against mid-EC teams through November. Can definitely see us starting the season 1-5 coming out of October though. The East is probably going to be pretty terrible, so some early games are hard to judge.

    Two 1sts would be the price for taking Anderson into cap space. That’s not what we would be doing. We would be giving back Melo, who may actually be worse while costing more.

    I’d love to know what Morey has offered already. Anderson plus a 1st and filler?

    For me, the rotation should be Sessions (25), Ntilikina (15) Baker (8) or something like that, with Ntilikina and Baker taking whatever’s left of the minutes in the 2 position (considering both Lee and THJ might play some 3 too). After the all star break, Frank should be starting over Sessions with the latter becoming a de facto sixth man.

    I wonder..
    If D’Antoni could make use of Duhon (over Marbury who could have been a MVP candidate in that offense!), what can Hornacek do with Sessions in a similar offense? Especially since KP should make a deadlier roll man than Stat could when MDA had him in Phoenix. Would be incredibly fun to watch, but I’d still rather see what the kids can do with some real playing time

    @69

    I think its a fair comparison. Duhon did shoot pretty well in his first season with the Knicks, then eventually just couldn’t sustain that level of production going further. Sessions is a bit taller and more inconsistent as a shooter (his career numbers are incredibly weird), and has stretched in his career where he was a pretty decent scorer.

    In my opinion Sessions should definitely be the starter come opening night, unless Ntilikina or even Baker is amazing in training camp, and that’s a good situation to have. Let the kids fight it out for the job with the veteran and when Ntilikina shows enough insert him as a starter.

    My fear is that the team, specially if it keeps Melo, might make a small run that makes playoffs seem possible and goes back to playing as many veterans possible to achieve that goal. If the youngsters play and the team plays well enough for a playoff berth, it’s fine, of course, but chasing the 8th seed cannot be a priority over developing talent.

    D’Antoni burned out Duhon, just like he did Felton and Lin. Remember the ‘I’m gonna ride him like Secretariat” comment about Lin?

    Ramon Sessions should play 24 mpg, come hell or high water. No way he can physically handle anything more than that. Rest him on back-to-backs as well.

    I’d like to see Frank start from day one. Sessions is used to coming off of the bench and Frank can take his lumps right away and accelerate the learning process. I think that he’s going to be hearing comparisons his whole career to Dennis Smith and him seeing limited minutes off of the bench while Smith gets all of the acclaim would be demoralizing to him.

    How can you say that Ntilikina should start before even seeing him play one preseason game? It’s possible that he’s a mile away from being even a rotation player.

    My assumption is that he’s not ready to be thrown into the fire, and doing so might demoralize him. I don’t care what happens with Dennis Smith. However, if he looks good in preseason, then by all means, play him.

    @66

    Check the trade machine. They need to either give us Ariza, Gordon, or three of their minimum salary guys (plus Ryno) to make the numbers work.

    @74 I would like to see it too, but I would trust Hornacek’s judgment here. Aside from some weird rotations, he has shown he isnt afraid to use different players and give guys with little experience playing time if he thinks they deserve it. I think starting Sessions right away takes away pressure from Ntilikina and slides him into the team under a clearly defined role: ball handler against weaker bench players and a shooter / defender with the starting lineup occasionally.

    I think rookies tend to succeed more when they have clear defined roles at the start of their careers and then start branching out once they’re more comfortable / their bodies are better developed.

    The Knicks second unit will probably also be pretty good; Frank could be the PG in lineups like Him, Baker / Lee, Lance / Kuz, O’Quinn and Willy / Noah for example, so it wouldn’t be him carrying everything in a terrible lineup. One thing I cant complain is that the Knicks do have depth.

    Ramon Sessions is to Frank Ntilikina what Josh McCown is to Christian Hackenberg. Frank will start a good portion of games for us. The strength of his offensive game is his feel in the pick and roll. I wouldn’t be surprised if he outplays Sessions from the jump.

    Can Knicki play PG?

    Z-Man, if she could play the point, I wouldn’t have named her Knicki. She can, however, shit on the hardwood floor on an almost daily basis.

    Bagley getting a year of Duke coaching…unless he gets hurt, that looks like a #1 pick right there. Since the Knicks are going to be just good enough not to get a top pick, hopefully that at least pushes down someone else good. I really hope that the Celtics don’t get Bagley. I think that he’s a generational talent, like Towns and the Brow.

    @68 – I realise we’re not taking Anderson into space but it’s still a reasonable way to evaluate a fair offer. We can’t go into this viewing a team taking Melo as doing us a favour or seeing Melo as a net negative. He’s an asset to Houston, and if they don’t see him that way then we walk away.

    On that basis we should get more compensation for trading Melo AND taking Anderson than if just taking Anderson.

    It’s why I’d much prefer a deal with Portland. They actually have real assets to trade as well as bad contracts. If they want Melo and to dump Leonard or even Turner then great a give us harkless and a couple of real draft assets – picks or recent draftees. I’d start the bidding at Collins plus a pick but I’d take some combo of Thornwell, Vonleh and picks.

    @76. I agree Anderson isn’t enough salary wise. My point is that from a purely salary view they don’t have to include any other actual rotation pieces because they can do it with non guaranteed min salary deals that they acquired for just that purpose.

    Including Ariza should and almost certainly would be a deal breaker for them as he’s a key rotation piece.

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