Knicks Morning News (2017.06.16)

  • [SNY Knicks] Knicks can use stretch provision on Anthony if unable to find trade
    (Thursday, June 15, 2017 1:00:16 PM)

    If Phi Jackson and the Knicks are unable to find a trade involving Carmelo Anthony, New York could decide to use the stretch provision on the star forward.

  • [SNY Knicks] Malik Monk worked out with Knicks earlier this week
    (Thursday, June 15, 2017 2:40:53 PM)

    Kentucky SG Malik Monk worked out for the Knicks earlier this week

  • [SNY Knicks] Prigioni takes head coaching job in Spain
    (Thursday, June 15, 2017 12:10:49 PM)

    The Knicks had been interested in hiring Prigioni as an assistant coach.

  • [SNY Knicks] Knicks to attend private workout on Thursday for NC State’s Smith Jr.
    (Thursday, June 15, 2017 11:30:00 AM)

    The Knicks will attend a private workout on Thursday for North Carolina State guard Dennis Smith Jr., reports Ian Begley of ESPN.

  • [NYPost] Knicks watch Frank Ntilikina slip into draft night dilemma
    (Thursday, June 15, 2017 3:14:01 PM)

    Frank Ntilikina’s journey to NBA draft night became even more complicated Thursday as he helped lead his Strasbourg team to a 74-72 victory over Chalon in Game 2 of the French league finals. Ntilikina, the starting point guard, notched 13 points, four assists and three rebounds in 24 minutes to bounce back from his poor…

  • [NYPost] How a hidden Dennis Smith trait could put him out of Knicks’ reach
    (Thursday, June 15, 2017 9:08:33 AM)

    Executives from at least 10 NBA teams, including a representative from the Knicks, were at North Carolina State on Thursday for Dennis Smith Jr.’s pro day. Though the 6-foot-3 freshman point guard is projected in the mid-lottery in most mock drafts, Smith’s longtime trainer told The Post that talent evaluators will be eyeballing the most talented…

  • [NYPost] The ‘high-ceiling’ stud Knicks should be praying for: ESPN expert
    (Thursday, June 15, 2017 7:29:10 AM)

    ESPN NBA Draft analyst Fran Fraschilla talks the Knicks’ best-case scenario, the Porzingis problem and the Lonzo Ball smokescreens with The Post’s Justin Terranova. Q: If you are the Knicks, who are you hoping falls to No. 8? A: Jonathan Isaac. There’s a lot of risk there, but also a lot of reward. He’s got…

  • [NY Newsday] Malik Monk says he’d be good fit for Knicks’ triangle offense
    (Thursday, June 15, 2017 5:24:00 PM)

    Malik Monk doesn’t consider himself a shooting guard. He called himself a combo guard who can play well with or without that ball. He also said he has “amazing” passing ability and believes he’s a good fit for the triangle offense.

  • [ESPN] Malik Monk praises triangle offense after workout with Knicks
    (Thursday, June 15, 2017 9:02:15 PM)

    Malik Monk praises triangle offense after workout with Knicks

  • [NYTimes] Seattle Storm Take Progressive Tack With Planned Parenthood Partnership
    (Friday, June 16, 2017 1:25:13 AM)

    The W.N.B.A. franchise, one of the few professional teams owned by women, will donate part of the proceeds from a July home game against the Chicago Sky to a chapter of the organization.

  • 81 replies on “Knicks Morning News (2017.06.16)”

    Giannis Antetokounmpo age 18.6 U20 stats: 309 minutes, per-36 averages of:

    –> 9.3 points, 8.9 rebounds, 2.6 assists, 1.2 steals, 1.6 blocks, TS of 51.1

    Frank Ntilikina age 18 U18stats (he had literally JUST turned 18 – tournament was 7/30-8/7/2016 and his birthday is 7/28/98): per 36 averages of:

    –> 19.5 points, 3.6 rebounds. 5.8 assists, 2.8 steals, 1.5 blocks, TS of 67.2

    I kinda think maybe Giannis turned out ok even though he was pretty bad against same-age and slightly older players in Europe. Ntilikina absolutely dominated his same-age group in the same setting. It doesn’t prove anything about his potential going forward, but he might just be ok.

    Another factor to consider that I’m sure the Knicks are: how are Baker, Randle and Trice developing this offseason as triangle PGs. Baker and Randle had surprisingly good stints by season’s end leading the offense. Baker, in particular, looked good on defense (a priority for this team now). Meanwhile, Trice has his best stint as a pro when returned to Westchester late in the season.

    It’s possible that they may decide to go with either of them as the starter next year. If that’s the case, it frees up the 8th pick to go for a project PG or wing. Just food for thought.

    Disappointed about Prigs. I got the feeling that when Longstaff was let go that the team wasn’t worried because it had Prigs in it’s back pocket. Now there’s a huge hole on the staff with the potential to add another PJ cronie. Either that, or to give Rambis even more of a voice. You can’t tell your coach how he’s gonna coach, and then expect the troops to follow him- especially when the shadow of Phil looms large over the operation. Seems like- to me- that the only player left resisting the triangle (or not playing well in it at the least) is Melo. And the expectation is that he will be traded. So I kinda don’t mind this triangle focus because sans Melo, suddenly we have a willing roster that fits the vision. I really like Melo and think we will miss his ability to get 20 points in his sleep until KP is ready to lead. But clearly- moving on from Melo is what’s best right now.

    I can’t believe I’m sayin this, but if the triangle is staying- Phil has to let Hornacek go. Question is, who replaces Hornacek as coach? Whoever it would be, I hope Bill Cartwright is added to the staff. And as long as the team shows progress, I see nothing wrong with Phil settling on a coach in his 3rd attempt. But who? Shaw? Is he available? Is he even any good? Outside of Shaw and Fish(who fucked it up gloriously), I can’t think of another option besides Phil himself. I’m not a proponent of Hornacek leaving, I’m just sayin- if you can’t let your general lead the troops in his way, give him an honorable discharge.

    Disappointed more that Longstaff was at least a little involved in KD/Russ/Harden’s development in OKC (he joined in 2010), and players seem to genuinely like him.

    Also, about Frank- the European league just doesn’t function the way college ball does- no one is allowed to ‘do their thing,’ just get pointz, and they get yanked early. He was voted twice as the French league’s best young player, Pro A’s best young player, and is always credited with helping his teams win. They also do badly when he’s out of the game. I don’t know why we’re obsessing that he’s not LeBron yet. He can shoot, defend, and pass well, keeps things simple and makes the best play, has a high IQ, and is well liked by his coaches/players. Come on.

    Malik Monk only knows how to shoot, and Dennis Rose Smith Jr.’s attitude issues and not giving a shit on D makes me throw up. Both of those guys (Smith more so) are exactly who I don’t want, and will give someone pointz without helping wins. Monk looks like he can improve, and Smith looks like he will always be looking for his stats without winning. I hope someone takes Smith early.

    Fultz, Ball, Isaac, Fox, Jackson, Frank, Monk, Tatum, Collins, Smith, Mitchell, Markannen

    Remember when it was all good and well that we fired KP’s favorite coach because Prigs was just around the corner?

    @1 Frank

    I think the debate has been more about what we are likely to get from Frank in the near term. Giannis averaged 6.8 points per game and 10 points per 36 with a .518 TS% in his rookie year. He was a very below average scorer in his first year despite elite athleticism and good height. Of course he eventually developed that elite athleticism and is becoming a franchise level scorer now, but from what I gather Frank is not considered an especially good athlete (as pros go).

    I think this is evidence for what I’ve been saying.

    Frank could very well turn out to be a very good player on both ends long term, but in his first year or two he’s going to have trouble scoring and getting a lot of minutes (other than maybe because the Knicks are so weak at guard).

    If giving Frank 2000 minutes means we get a shot at Michael Porter Jr or Luka Doncic then dammit you do it.

    Justin Jackson

    How much fun would that be in 2018?

    There’s really not enough info out there to evaluate guys who played a year of college ball, and Frank played 500 odd minutes in France this year. For example, it looks like he’s a pretty good 3 point shooter, but he took 51 3s. We know free throw shooting can help predict future 3 point shooting, so can he shoot free throws? I don’t know-he’s taken 42 in his professional career.

    Any thoughts on the Knicks going after Jonah Bolden or/and Cameron Oliver

    I think the best argument you can make against picking Frank is relative contract value i.e. he’s raw enough where he might only become productive enough right when his rookie contract is over and you have to pay him what he’s worth in the open market

    Oliver can play but those questions about his motor scare me. He seems like the perfect guy to play next to KP though.

    I think the pick is going to be Ntilikina unless someone else unexpectedly falls. If you follow the guys on twitter that seem to have real sources on the team, it sounds like they’ve been on Ntilikina since very early and basically have had a scout following him around for months. Add to that Phil’s comments about not looking for guys that can jump out of the gym, his general distaste for small guards, etc. And with euro players he doesn’t have to fight them as hard on buying into the Triangle.

    Re: the Triangle – I really don’t know what to think of it. It seems plausible to me that the team just really wasn’t doing it right, and so that led to everything being bad.

    Even so – I still think we (and by that I mean fans, media, team) are paying too much attention to the Triangle. The defense is and always has been the problem, and so drafting/signing/developing players who want to and also are capable of defending should be high on the priority list.

    i don’t really have an opinion on bolden …. altho i’m always wary of guys who can’t break a college rotation or choose to hide in some obscure foreign league… and for him he did both…

    oliver is sort of interesting but he has issues scoring inside and from the numbers he looks like he floats on the perimeter a lot… i don’t think he’s more than bench filler…

    I think we all woefully underestimate the importance that Tex Winter in help Phil (at first) understand and better implement the triangle offense. The Knicks haven’t had that benefit and it’s shown. Rambis has thoroughly failedin that regard. I’m amazed he still has a job on this team.

    And since Tex is lying in some bed somewhere trying to remember his name, the only person that can successfully undertake that role is Phil himself. That he’s been doing this by Hornachek’s suggests to me that he’s doing just that.

    Remember that Hornachek came to NY wanting to learn from Phil, in particular how he was able to win 11 rings. That includes learning about the triangle. So I honestly don’t think Phil’s undermining his coach one bit, but rather undertaking a more direct mentorship role. That Phil is able to do this is a direct consequence of the breakup from Jeannie.

    Golden State also wanted to hire Hornacek to their staff before Phil hired him to be Knicks HC. I was pretty disappointed in his performance last year, but he got thrown into a cauldron with Phil, Melo and Rose among other difficult to manage things. What we saw towards the end of the season once Rose and Melo were done makes me believe that if you give him a team with moldable young talent he’ll look a lot more like the guy he was in Phoenix his 1st year and whome Kerr wanted to add to his staff.

    Man if Boston actually picks Josh Jackson, that would be…something.
    Then Fultz to the Lakers, which would annoy me to no end.
    Ball to Philly
    Probably Tatum to PHX
    then the draft returns to normalcy I guess.

    I’ve seen video of Bolden and came off very impressed with his potential. Where will he be drafted? If we snag a PG at 8 I’d definitely consider Bolden at 44. And he’ll be much better than Jerian Grant btw.

    The thing about the ‘golden state run the modified triangle’ thing is this – they have two of the best pure scorers in the NBA, one of whom is also a top defender, the top ‘playmaking 4’ in the NBA who is also one of the top three defenders in the league, and a 4th option capable of scoring 50 who is also a really good defender. AND they all buy into system ball… but when the system breaks down three of their guys can launch a contested 3 from 30ft and stand a decent chance it goes in.

    So what can we take from that? The triangle and other motion systems can still win in the NBA. But you need elite two way players for that to be the case. Who knows if it’s the combo of the system and the players or mostly the players? It sure as hell isnt ‘mostly’ the system.

    And hey – turns out that was true in the heyday of the triangle too, when the teams playing it had Jordan and Pippen or Kobe and Shaq.

    I’m not against us playing the triangle – although it would be nice if it wasn’t a turn-off to so many FAs. And I’m not against prioritising high IQ players who defend and have versatile skill sets. And I’m not against developing a system-based culture. But let’s not expect it to make is win without some better players, and let’s not overdo the relevance of a team with 4 all-NBA players winning while playing it…

    Golden State runs triangle principles just fine without Tex or Phil.

    That just speaks volumes about Kerr and his #1, Luke Walton. Thank you for helping me make my point.

    Stupid question: If Monk is such a good shooter — presumably causing defenders to stay close to him on the perimeter — and has a quick first step, what stops him from getting into the paint?


    He had to play off ball predominantly because he was Kentucky’s only player that teams respected that could space the floor. He does get to the rim and finish with aplomb in transition. Him and Frank share that worry though.

    Monk is explosive and did shoot 68.4% when he did get to the rim, he just didn’t get there a whole lot. With Frank I’m not sure what he did shoot at the rim, but he’s also not super explosive. That could be mitigated if he becomes crafty with his handle like, for example, Steph who’s not the most explosive athlete either.

    Frank is going to enjoy the more stringent hand-checking rules of the NBA game on offense but won’t like it so much as a defender.

    Frank is going to enjoy the more stringent hand-checking rules of the NBA game on offense but won’t like it so much as a defender.

    Yeah he’s going to be in a lot of foul trouble when he comes to the league. Whoever drafts him will have to be really patient with his development.

    So what can we take from that? The triangle and other motion systems can still win in the NBA. But you need elite two way players for that to be the case. Who knows if it’s the combo of the system and the players or mostly the players? It sure as hell isnt ‘mostly’ the system.

    You need elite players for any offense to be as good as the Warriors are. But you’re fooling yourself if you think the Warriors would be as offensively dangerous in a non-motion offense. Either way, no one can say that an offense run by the best offensive team in the game’s history is obsolete. It makes no sense except according to NBA logic where the inmates run the asylum and ISO ball hero players decide what system benefits their stat line the best.

    Yeah he’s going to be in a lot of foul trouble when he comes to the league. Whoever drafts him will have to be really patient with his development.

    Summer Leagues will be Frank’s friend.

    so far frank can’t explode with the ball, either to get into the paint or to finish. It’s not that he can’t jump bc he has some nice back cut lob finishes but he hasn’t yet been much of a finisher with the ball, to say the least. His crossover seems okay on the perimeter but less so when he is going downhill. But who knows he’s so young. Monk unlike frank can definitely explode with the ball already and finish but he hasn’t yet showed a lot of strength or body control/creativity on finishes. He relied on his touch to shoot baseline floaters sometimes instead of going all the way in. Even so his shot selection was better than, say, Donovan Mitchell who often took semi-fadeaway type shots when the lane was clogged.

    I think it will come down to Monk or Frank, and I sort of prefer Monk. I think he’ll be able to run the point well enough, as well as play above the rim more than Frank. I don’t think his D will ever be good, but I think it can be ok.

    Another thing about Frank is that Euro prospects don’t get the same level of training/access to facilities that Americans do, which might be another reason to be optimistic about future athletic and bodily growth

    Frank’s also definitely not the 170 lbs. that DX has him listed at. He looks like he’s between 180-190.

    Monk has been praising the triangle recently. I think that he doesn’t want to drop below #8.

    One plus with Monk is that he really does move very well without the ball. That gives him a leg up as a triangle point over guys like Galloway and Baker as he can actually get the defense moving after he makes the entry pass. He was also recruited as a point but moved off of the ball because Fox was better than expected. I’m guessing it comes down to him or Frank and I’m okay but not thrilled either way. I do think with Smith seemingly likely to move up there’s a chance Tatum or even Fox slips down and I guess I’d take either of them. I can’t imagine Isaac slipping to eight but that would be ideal.

    If I were a 19-21 year old professional athlete due for a 7 figure contract I’d be clamoring to live in NYC, too

    @32 I really wouldn’t be unhappy with Monk. He’s a great shooter and knows how to move without the ball. Super athletic. Great attitude. If he can defend PGs he would be a fine addition. I believe he was a PG but moved to accommodate Fox.

    Monk’s ceiling is probably “JR Smith but not as idiotic.” And actually, that would be a pretty decent player.

    JR Smith with an IQ would probably be in the HOF. Seriously.

    Also, I was just thinking floor/ceiling/most likely for Monk and Frank.

    Monk, if unplayable defensively, can be Jimmer. If playing avg defense, and the scoring is solid, can be an all star. Most likely? Solid starting 2 who you have to hide on defense.

    Frank can be almost unplayable if he can’t shoot/penetrate, can be an elite defender with great passing/shooting, but most likely? No fucking clue.

    Not as idiotic. Less of a dunderhead.
    Monk is our man.

    I hope we pick a player that everyone boos. That would bode well.

    On GSW motion offense, I’m glad to see people here acknowledge that it’s triangle-like. Don’t forget that Kerr is a Phil disciple. Yes, you need great players to be great and a system doesn’t win by itself. OF COURSE. But teaching players to pass and cut is never a bad thing and I believe that the most important reason that the triangle has failed in NY so far is iso-Melo (and iso-Rose.) It’s why D’Antoni failed here as well. Your players have to buy into a system.

    Back to the dubs, there is no question that they are better because of their motion system. They got shots for all of those guys because of it. They were fun to watch because of it and they won because they didn’t stagnate. CLE was brutal to watch and lost based on lack of ball movement. For all of LBJ’s being a willing passer it was one pass and a shot when he had the ball. With Kyrie it was less than that. They turned Kevin Love into a role player.

    Don’t forget they got good JR in game five. Otherwise they lose by 30.

    “JR Smith with an IQ would probably be in the HOF. Seriously. ”

    Agree 100%. He is insanely athletic and talented, unfortunately he is also a complete fool.

    Don’t laugh at me, but Monk next to Rose wouldn’t be….Ok, never mind.

    Woj is tweeting that Philly is deep into talks to acquire Boston’s #1 in exchange for Sixers #3 and future first rounder from Philly. I would guess Ainge is targeting Jackson with the #3? Kind of puzzling, but hard to doubt Ainge based on his track record.

    I mean if they reallly don’t want a PG I guess it makes sense but Fultz and Ball are both superior prospects to jackson and this basically means they have no IT replacement when he hits like 34 or whatever so it’s probably a bad idea

    Plus I don’t think Philly is going to be bad anymore

    While we’re working out players in an antiquated offensive system not fit for today’s game, the Sixers and Celtics are playing chess.

    Good times.

    @44 When you get 3 rings, not to mention 13, I’ll take your word over Phil Jackson’s.

    Haha not quite. But I did enjoy this one fella’s response :

    “And then we got kp at the 5 and Willy of bench at pf (he’s learning 3s) o quinn at c Frank at pg lee at sg and lance at sf”

    The starters named NY Knicks as worst this season. I even saw a clip where Melo calls for isolation and coach hornacek at the background just turned his back.
    Just maybe let’s give Phil a chance to,pick players who,fits and willing to,run the triangle. Hopefully that is our hope.

    I remember that play. Melo has to be gone even if we have to stretch him.

    I could see Boston going for Isaacs 3rd. They could use rebounding and shot blocking.

    I think it has to be Jackson, as they were already rumored to be thinking him at #1 period. Wow, what a bold move by Boston. They knew that one of the few other teams out there that could afford to trade what could be a good first rounder is Philly, since they get the Lakers’ pick next year and a future Sacto pick.

    Also, I think Lonzo would make much more sense for Philly than Fultz. Simmons & Lonzo running the break would be something I’d want to see.

    In general, I agree, but Fultz could be a fine combo guard, as well. So Simmons could still be the lead playmaker.

    Also was told that Josh Jackson's workout in LA "did not go well at all." Brought high energy but struggled with his shooting and handle.— Jonathan Givony (@DraftExpress) June 16, 2017

    Does Jackson on the Celts strike fear in anyone’s heart?

    Isn’t there a chance Jackson goes 2nd to the lakers? Do the Celtics take Ball or listen to more trade talks? Like Dred said, if they did target Isaac they could try to talk to Sac about trading their picks for Ball. Isaac and Collins/Frank would be very good plus the extra pkg they get from Philly in the future could potentially be a nasty robbery.

    They could also trade the pick for Jimmy Butler or whoever else is on the trading block.

    I’m about 80% sure it’s for Jimmy Butler

    I also read it could be to have enough assets to acquire Anthony Davis.

    Right if the Butler deal was there for the 3 this makes sense. I guess you could also imagine the Celts turning around and flipping the 3 for the rumored Sacto/Philly deal and then flipping the 5 for George and keeping the 10.

    I think there are even scenarios where they can actually trade for Butler/George and still sign Hayward or Blake, but they’d have to get rid of any draft hold and also Avery Bradley, plus renounce Olynyk/Amir.

    I don’t get it – the Bulls would seriously prefer to have the #3 and a future Philly pick over the #1 pick itself? Why?

    I think the premise would be that the Bulls would accept just the 3 so the Celtics would get to keep the rest instead of having to deal the 1 for Butler. Not saying this is likely tho.

    Call me crazy but if my franchise hadn’t won more than half it’s games in 13 years I wouldn’t be eager to trade future picks to move up two spots.

    Call me crazy but if my franchise hadn’t won more than half it’s games in 13 years I wouldn’t be eager to trade future picks to move up two spots.

    The only reason I’m okay with it is because of their other good first round picks that they picked up. Otherwise, yeah, I would not be down with this deal, either. That the Celtics appeared willing to pick Jackson likely explains the trade down for them, as it’s like I said the other day, you have to manage your assets, as even if you think Jackson is the best guy, everyone else doesn’t, so you have to trade down if you want him or else you’re wasting an asset.

    Boston is determined to piss away every pick they got in the KG/Pierce trade, so this seems to be a move designed to further that end.

    Someone’s forgetting the glorious Tyson Chandler era.

    I’m talking about Philly.

    The suggestion someone made on here of Lee for OKC’s #21 makes so much sense for both teams I can’t get it out of my head. Somebody tweet this to Phil.
    Then we get one of Portland’s picks for taking on Harkless or Crabbe and I’d be one melo trade away from being downright giddy.

    From Fran Fraschilla:

    I don’t think Porzingis is going to finish his career with the Knicks, let’s put it that way. In the long term he’s eventually going to want to be on a winning team. Hopefully that will happen before the end of this decade. I don’t know what their plan is, though. They have a very good scouting staff because someone convinced Phil Jackson to draft Porzingis.

    The Boston/Philly trade, from what I’ve read, could include Chicago as well.

    From what I saw on Twitter, one possibility is:

    Boston get Jimmy Butler
    Philly get #1 pick
    Chicago get #3 pick, Okafor and Brooklyns 2018 first-round pick.

    From philly perspective I wonder why will I do that trade. 2 lottery picks for flutz? I think the talent level of 1st and 3rd pick is not big. There is also a chance that the 3rd pick willl be better than the first. Also, the unprotected 2018 pick originally from the lakers could be the better pick than 1 or 3 this year. Colangelo is not winning this trade.

    They only mentioned that the Lakers pick was “in the discussion,” not that it would be actually part of the deal. I suspect that Philly would balk at that and insist that it be their own first rounder. I agree that the Lakers first rounder is too much to give up.

    It might be too much to give up in expected value, but if Fultz is as good as they believe then it’s worth the overpay to them, especially since it doesn’t mortgage their future. They have all these extra assets lying around, instead of just waiting to see where all of them fall moving up to take a guy the feel very strongly about is aggressive, but not necessarily a bad idea.

    Call me crazy but if my franchise hadn’t won more than half it’s games in 13 years I wouldn’t be eager to trade future picks to move up two spots.

    Well, I think there was a graph showing the average return value of each draft pick, and the top spot is worth much more than the rest. It seems that teams are able to pinpoint one ‘can’t miss’ project every year. From 2nd onwards there is much more unceirtainty.

    So it is not your typical ‘move up two spots’.

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