Knicks Morning News (2017.03.11)

  • [NYTimes] The N.B.A.’s ‘Turkish Thunder’ Excels at a Painful Task
    (Friday, March 10, 2017 12:00:27 PM)

    Ersan Ilyasova, a power forward for the Atlanta Hawks, steps in front of runaway human trains to take a charge better than anyone else in the game.

  • [NYTimes] The Triangle: A Simple Name for a Complex Basketball Scheme
    (Saturday, March 11, 2017 1:39:12 AM)

    To make it work, Knicks players know firsthand that it requires flexibility and continuity on the roster, with players who possess a high basketball I.Q.

  • [SNY Knicks] Jackson conducts on-court triangle training with Knicks guards
    (Friday, March 10, 2017 8:20:14 PM)

    Knicks coach Jeff Hornacek confirmed Friday that team president Phil Jackson was on the court working with the Knicks guards Thursday on the triangle offense.

  • [SNY Knicks] TheKnicksBlog Podcast: The Dog Days
    (Thursday, March 16, 2017 2:50:18 PM)

    Anthony Donahue and Moke Hamilton are officially in the dog days of the season as the guys discuss what Knicks fans can look forward to for the rest of the year.

  • [NY Newsday] Phil Jackson holds triangle session with Knicks’ guards
    (Friday, March 10, 2017 9:06:40 PM)

    GREENBURGH, N.Y. — Knicks president Phil Jackson was back on the court Thursday, coaching the guards on options they can run out of the triangle offense.

  • [NYPost] Knicks will celebrate 1984 — no, not the George Orwell classic
    (Friday, March 10, 2017 9:57:21 PM)

    The Knicks will celebrate “1984” — not the George Orwell classic but a classic squad that made great Garden memories. The Post has learned as part of the 70th anniversary celebration on March 29 the Knicks are planning a reunion of the 1983-1984 squad coached by Hubie Brown — a club that shocked the Isiah…

  • [NYPost] Knicks coach sees both sides of the tanking debate
    (Friday, March 10, 2017 9:48:47 PM)

    The nerve of those Knicks. How in blazes are they going to draft UCLA’s Lonzo Ball or Washington’s Markelle Fultz or Kansas’ Josh Jackson if they’re going to do crazy, nonsensical stuff like win ball games, as they did Monday in Orlando? At 26-39, the motto should be “Strive for 55.” As in 55 losses….

  • [NYPost] Phil Jackson decides just to teach Knicks the triangle himself
    (Friday, March 10, 2017 7:52:40 PM)

    There are those around the NBA who have suggested, some more pointedly than others, that if Phil Jackson is so unwavering in his devotion to the triangle offense, he should get back on the court and coach it himself. Well, he did. Jackson, six years since he last formally held the title of “coach,” instructed…

  • [NYDN] Phil Jackson works with Knick guards on (what else?) the triangle
    (Friday, March 10, 2017 8:47:28 PM)

    Phil Jackson, team executive, put back on his coaching hat to teach — what else?

  • [ESPN] Phil Jackson leads Knicks guards in triangle tutorial
    (Friday, March 10, 2017 6:56:14 PM)

    Phil Jackson leads Knicks guards in triangle tutorial

  • 161 replies on “Knicks Morning News (2017.03.11)”

    Hornacek is probably done after this season. I’m predicting this not because I don’t think he’s a good coach. But because things are just..Knicksy. Every time Phil steps in and does something in practice, Hornacek has (at the very least) felt compelled to say something that sounds like, “Phil does this once a month”. Or, “Phil and I talk triangle all the time”. That is not a good look. Phil needs to coach or get out of the damn way.

    I find it hard to believe Horny’s going to get less of a chance to coach this team that Derek fucking Fisher had.

    I think the blowback from the Hornacek firing would be too much even for Phil and Dolan to handle unless Phil himself decided to coach.

    Which, I mean…you can’t really argue with, right? Maybe you can, since phil is a dinosaur?

    Nah, Hornacek is staying.

    I watched Markanen last night and he is worthy of a very high draft pick. Nowitzki-like. Maybe he’s not what we need but he’s very good.

    With regards to the lottery, it seems like a lock that we’re gonna finish no lower than 6th (We’re not catching “down” to Nets, Lakers, Suns, Sixers or Magic) and 8th (we could stay ahead of the Pels and Kings, and probably won’t catch the T’wolves, Mavs, Blazers, or Hornets).

    My guess right now is that we are passed by the Pels and finish 7th.

    There are going to be teams behind us in this draft that want Markkanen if we draft 7th and he’s still out there. If we don’t want him we should be able to trade down for additional assets. He’s that good.

    Looking at the draftexpress videos (I love Mike Schmitz’s work!) it’s hard to figure what will happen after Fultz and Ball are off the board. The next 5 guys all have significant red flags. Jackson and Tatum both have shooting issues for their size. Smith is also not great as a shooter and is physically nothing special. Isaac is a bit raw but probably a good pick, could he go at #3? We don’t really need Markkanen, but will he be the best player available? De’Aaron Fox can’t shoot a 3 to save his life. I kinda like Malik Monk, would you take him if he, Fox and Ntilikina are all available?

    I dunno about trading down. Unless you have a specific target in mind and are sure that he will be available, or you get an asset that bowls you over (an unprotected first for a likely lottery team in a projected deep draft, or a good, young player) I would rather stay put.

    With regards to the lottery, it seems like a lock that we’re gonna finish no lower than 6th (We’re not catching “down” to Nets, Lakers, Suns, Sixers or Magic) and 8th (we could stay ahead of the Pels and Kings, and probably won’t catch the T’wolves, Mavs, Blazers, or Hornets).

    C’mon. Have a little faith that this team can suck badly enough

    We should be looking exclusively at Isaac Fox and Ntilikina in the 6-8 range. My personal big board for any team is:
    Ball
    Fultz
    Jackson
    Isaac
    Fox
    Smith
    Ntilikina
    Markannen
    Taytum
    Monk
    Bridges

    For the Knicks based on need:
    Ball
    Fultz
    Jackson
    Isaac
    Fox
    Ntilikina
    Taytum
    Bridges
    Monk
    (I wouldn’t pick taytum or bridges or Monk in the 6-8 range at all probably)

    Why are you so high on Fox? He’s small, can’t shoot the 3 and has an injury history.

    I would pick Fox and Ntilikina before Monk without a second thought

    Fox is the fifth best prospect in the draft and his shooting woes are significant but overstated I think given his extremely low volume of 3s making it too small of a sample to make a complete judgment. He’s good at everything else.

    I have a sneaking suspicion Jackson might be better than Fultz (I tend to not worry too much about shooting issues) but I’m deferring to the scouts on this one. I think Fultz is actually a bit overrated–his d hasn’t been adequate (granted high usage on a bad team) and his productivity hasn’t matched his hype, really. Very complete offensive game though.

    I think ball is the best prospect in this draft by a good measure.

    Seriously though, the Knicks only have one game left against a team that is actively tanking: Philly. They also have two against the Nets. They could really bomb the last two months.

    @12

    He’s 6’4 175 which is light but his measurwables are good especially if he grows into his frame a bit. He’s lightning fast–probably the fastest in the draft, though smith has the better first step–and he shoots quite well up close. A good passer with a solid A/TO on a team where he’s asked to do a lot of creation, solid rebounder at his position. Best defensive guard in the draft, with only Ntilikina having more upside on that end. Smart player who’s really athletic–averages 2 steals per 40. He’s pretty much a complete player other than his bad shooting, and shooting is the worst predictor of NBA productivity of any college stat since it’s so volatile so I worry less about that than most probably do. If you value shooting more I understand why you might be wary, especially given the nature of the NBA at this moment in time.

    Ntilikina is quite tempting to me but we just don’t know enough about him to judge his ability. If Gaines says to pull the trigger over Fox though I’ll trust him. He’s a great shooter and smart player by all indications

    Fox reminds me a lot of Brandon Jennings. I would way rather have Ntilikina. I don’t think shooting is as important when you are talking about superior athletes, like John Wall, Russell Westbrook or pre-injury Derrick Rose. But a PG who has limited physical tools better be able to shoot. There’s a reason that Fox shoots so few 3’s…he sucks at it.

    Monk can really score and is physical enough that I don’t worry as much about his development.

    He’s not 6’4″ though, even with shoes (6’2″ without.) He’s very similar physically and athletically to Brandon Jennings.

    He has similar measureables to Wall in college (Fox: 187, 6-3, 6-6 wingspan; Wall: 6’3, 195, 6-8 wingspan) but Fox is the better defender and worse shooter. In fact, he’s probably more similar to a Wall than a BJ. BJ played no defense and was always rail thin with bad measureables (6’1 170) and isn’t as fast or as generally athletic as Fox. Fox has been more productive than Wall by a good bit in college. Literally the only red flag he has is shooting.

    Monk plays no D, is undersized for a SG, and can only score. Extremely hard pass.

    I kinda like Malik Monk, would you take him if he, Fox and Ntilikina are all available?

    FUCK NO. That is the one name I do not want for us to take in this draft. That dude is straight up overrated as fuck and the last thing this team needs. Whoever we choose should at least provide this team someone who can defend at the 1 or 3 spot. That leaves us looking at people like Isaac, Bridges, Fox, Ntilikina and maybe Taytum.

    He also never seems to finish with his right hand, another red flag for smallish PGs. In the NBA, he will be forced right and opponents will go under screens all day.

    I’m honestly not sure where you’re getting the limited physical tools line from because the consensus is that he has prototypical physical tools for an NBA PG with solid size, weight, and elite quickness for the type of PG he is. He’s one step below Wall athletically speaking but he’s still relatively elite wrt the other PG prospects/the NBA more generally.

    A lot of scouts have said he’d be a top 3 pick in the draft if he could shoot, right up there with Fultz and Ball

    He’s not 6’4? though, even with shoes (6’2? without.) He’s very similar physically and athletically to Brandon Jennings

    Where are you seeing this? Nearly every site has him at 6’4.

    I have a sneaking suspicion Jackson might be better than Fultz (I tend to not worry too much about shooting issues) but I’m deferring to the scouts on this one. I think Fultz is actually a bit overrated–his d hasn’t been adequate (granted high usage on a bad team) and his productivity hasn’t matched his hype, really. Very complete offensive game though.

    The thing about Fultz that makes him so impressive is that he’s really really young and already so damn good. At 18.6 years old he’s already a year and a half younger than Josh Jackson. That’s super-impressive to think he has a year and a half development time ahead of a guy who could be chosen right after him.

    @23

    I did forget about the age difference. That makes Fultz number 2, you’re right.

    Draftexpress doest really update their measureables quickly enough they usually rely on HS/pre college measurements until the NBA draft combine hits

    Kentucky website and ESPN have him at 6’3 and sports reference at 6’4

    @26

    His form/mechanics are pretty much fine though and he has a good free throw percentage which bodes well for his development as a shooter.

    But yeah he’s got real issues that need to be ironed out. Still better than every other guard prospect not named Fultz or Ball unless Ntilikina is the real deal

    Even if those are the correct measurables, 6’3 with a 6’6 wingspan is still good size for a PG.

    To me Frank Ntilikina is still the perfect fit for us considering that we’re expected to pick in that 6-8 range where Fultz, Ball, and Isaac are expected to have been long gone. He’s arguably the best perimeter defender in this draft behind only Fox with way more upside due to his freakish wingspan, he has combo guard potential which suits the Triangle motion offense we run since he doesn’t need to play with the ball in his hands all the time, and he has a pretty consistent shot for his age. I don’t see a better match with as much ceiling at that lottery range.

    I am also more willing to gamble on Ntilikina because he’s the youngest prospect in this lottery draft playing in a league of grown professionals. I keep wondering how freakish he’d be with the benefit of being a straight up 20 year old like Josh Jackson in the NCAA with the benefit of an added year and half of American diet, training, and college experience under his belt.

    @30 Reub posted the game footage the other day and I’m convinced he would be a perfect fit for us if we are running the triangle. My only worry is that he only got to the rim on broken defensive sets and transition buckets.

    I’d take Fox over Ntilikina, Monk, Tatum, and maybe even Smith. He’s good at all the things that have a strong correlation to the NBA except blocks and has a 4.6 DBPM. If he never learns to shoot, he can still almost definitely be a valuable player. If he does, he might be the best player in the draft.

    I think his 162 free throw attempts are probably more indicative of his shooting ability than his 59 three point attempts. Regardless, I recall another Kentucky point guard who couldn’t shoot worth a damn and still carved out a damn good NBA career…

    It’s not that he’s short, more that he plays a small PGs game but doesn’t have the scoring skills to get away with it in the NBA. He’s not Rajon Rondo or Avery Bradley as a defender, he’s not Jason Kidd or Ricky Rubio as a passer and he’s not John Wall or Derrick Rose as a finisher. Most guys like him wind up being either career backups or marginal starters (e.g. Lin, Jennings). Most guys don’t improve their shooting much at the NBA level. I got caught up in that kind of hope with Shumpert, who still can’t really shoot (although he’s improved somewhat from 3 lately, probably due to the LeBron effect.)

    If he never learns to shoot, he can still almost definitely be a valuable player.

    If he never learns to shoot he becomes Rubio. I’d rather just trade or wait for Rubio. In the draft I want upside, Ntilikina has it in spades.

    The biggest red flag for me is that Fox can’t score with his right hand at all. Unless you are a great shooter, that’s a huge problem. And that’s a very difficult thing to improve. Rondo was excellent with both hands around the basket.

    My only worry is that he only got to the rim on broken defensive sets and transition buckets.

    Yeah, he’s not the type of point guard who is blazing quick to the basket like a Smith or a Fox. Part of the problem is a lack of initial burst, the other part is that he’s not yet strong enough to effectively resist being muscled away from the basket yet in a league full of grown men. But that’s not as important in a motion offense like the Triangle where movement off the ball towards and around the basket negates the heavy emphasis upon a lighting quick ball-handler to break down perimeter defenses. Ultimately, the question comes to do whether or not you believe this kid’s frame is going to fill out strong enough where he will physically develop greater explosiveness and power as a ball-handler. I think his youth (18.6 years), long arms (7ft wingspan) and long lean frame (only 170 lbs and he’s possibly 6’5 without shoes) means there’s a ton of projection left. He’s well worth the chance at that 6-8 range. Guy’s the perfect choice for us.

    My concern about Ntilikina is his lack of burst. Is he the second coming of Mardy Collins? But yeah, I’d rather take a gamble on him than Fox.

    My only fear with Frank is that too many Knicks fans just aren’t patient enough for a developmental player like him who will need some added work on his game and body to be an NBA regular. You look at how they lose patience with Porzingis in his second season and I can’t imagine them understanding the Frank will play an entire rookie season in the NBA and be as young Josh Jackson is right now. He also doesn’t have the flash and flair that lots of fans love from their stars. He has a very reserved, quiet and subtle style that is reminiscent of a Clyde Frazier. Its a lot of that kind of impatience which fucks up the expectations and development of a young player.

    Is he the second coming of Mardy Collins?

    Mardy Collins was 22 years old when he entered the NBA. Frank will be 19.

    He has a very reserved, quiet and at times passive style that is reminiscent of a Clyde Frazier.

    Or Langston Galloway.

    Markkanen has real talent. I’m saying that if he’s available we might be able to move down a slot or two and end up with Frank plus a high 2nd.

    I’m almost as down for Frank as I am for Fox I just need more of a sample from Frank before I go gaga. I trust Clarence Gaines enough to make the informed decision on him.

    It has to be Fox or Frank if isaac is gone though.

    Also Fox is a better defender than all of those players with the exception of Kidd. I think a good comp for him is rich man’s pat Beverly which is a really good player

    He’s arguably the best perimeter defender in this draft behind only Fox with way more upside due to his freakish wingspan, he has combo guard potential which suits the Triangle motion offense we run since he doesn’t need to play with the ball in his hands all the time, and he has a pretty consistent shot for his age.

    I agree with this mostly, although the “triangle” part of it is probably irrelevant. Phil Jackson has two more years after this year on his contract, and that is the remaining lifespan of the triangle offense. Once Phil is done here, the triangle moves on to the dustbin of history. Yes, I know that Golden State and San Antonio use triangle “elements” but they’re not basing personnel decisions on whether or not a guy is a good fit for the triangle.

    Of the guys who might be available in our range, Ntilikina does look like he might have the best shot of developing into a two-way player. We’ll probably end up with Malik Monk tho because he’s the Knicksiest player in the draft. You simply can’t have a Knicks team without an unrepentant chucker who plays no defense as your centerpiece. He’s the Jamal Crawford of tomorrow.

    Philmelo, I’m with you on this one. But if Ntilikina doesn’t develop, he’ll be Mardy Collins, too slow and not a good enough shooter for the NBA game. That’s who he is right now. Obviously if he was 22, we wouldn’t even be discussing him. My point is that there is no guarantee that he develops. He’s putting up iffy stats in a hard to judge league (his ft% is particularly glaring.) Drafting him would be like drafting Porzingis in a sense, purely on flashes of brilliance and physical potential, mostly hype about height/length for position. Burst (fast-twitch stuff) is really hard to improve. See: Porzingis.

    But I was for rolling the dice on KP, and I’m fine with doing the same with Frank.

    He’s the Jamal Crawford of tomorrow.

    Or the James Harden, another unrepentant no-D chucker (pre-D’Antoni)

    Even if Frank doesn’t fully reach his potential I could see him be our SG of the future.

    Though I don’t want Monk he seems like one of the surer bets in this draft. His TS% is about 100 points higher than Crawford in College.

    Frank and Fox!

    Por que no los dos?

    (Whoops no assets to trade away!)

    Or Langston Galloway.

    Langston Galloway? Can you at least find a decent comparison here?

    I think he meant inattitude not playstyle

    @43

    Its an interesting comp but Pat Beverley could always shoot the three. He’s a career 37.5% three point shooter at 4.4 attempts a game. Fox would have to do a lot of work on his shot to get to there.

    Even if Frank doesn’t fully reach his potential I could see him be our SG of the future.

    THIS. Its why I value him higher than I would a De’Aaron Fox. I think Frank has a better floor and ceiling. If Fox can’t develop his jumper there’s nowhere left for him to play but point guard. If Ntilikina never develops enough of a burst or handle to be an NBA point guard, he can at least physically mature into an effective 3 and D player.

    But if Ntilikina doesn’t develop, he’ll be Mardy Collins, too slow and not a good enough shooter for the NBA game.

    Mardy Collins was also a piss poor shooter whereas Ntilikina has shown really good skills as a shooter. Its just a bad comp in my opinion like the comps which put Frank and Exum in the same sentence because they were tall point guards who played internationally. Exum was never a good shooter back in Australia and wasn’t as freakishly long as Frank is.

    Franks shot is pure, I would be shocked if it doesn’t translate to the NBA.

    Franks shot is pure, I would be shocked if it doesn’t translate to the NBA.

    It doesn’t hurt that his extension is so long he ends up easily shooting over every defender.

    You simply can’t have a Knicks team without an unrepentant chucker who plays no defense as your centerpiece. He’s the Jamal Crawford of tomorrow.

    Which is tragically sad since this franchise’s Golden Era once included two championship teams that were legendary for sharing the basketball under team fundamental style.

    How about this? We trade Melo for picks and take on Crawford’s salary so we can just Frank and still have the Jamal Crawford of yesteryear.

    My new vaguely achievable but not really fantasy is a Derrick Rose sign and trade with Minnesota where we get their first and Pekovic in exchange for Rose and KOQ

    That would never happen but then we draft Fox + Frank and just run dual PG sets forever

    It’s probably not even optimal but man would it be fun

    reay though if come out with Fox Ntilikina or Isaac I’ll be quite happy with this draft

    Never mind if we manage to grab a late first or hit on one of our seconds

    I we get Minnesota’s pick Isaac is on the table too. But that scenario is a pipe dream. Minny’s own staff put a kibosh on that Rubio trade deal because they were afraid of the impact a Rose would have on their young team’s development.

    I wouldn’t go so far as to say that Frank’s shot is pure. He’s taken 69 shots total this year, a very small sample size. He’s 13-27 from 3, again, a small sample size. It’s promising, but saying he’s a pure shooter at this point is like saying he a poor FT shooter based on going 6-10 this year.

    He’s really a total unknown at this point. He’s played 15 mpg in 19 games. He doesn’t get to the line and has a lousy assist to turnover ratio. He seems to be a good rebounder, which is to be expected with his size and length. He hasn’t had more than two assists in a game yet this year!

    He has tons of potential but hasn’t really done anything. I know he’s a kid playing in a grown man’s league, but it’s hardly Real Madrid. He’s a very high-risk pick in the top half of the lottery. There is no way of telling whether the NBA game is too fast for him. He might be a tweener, to slow to play PG or SG, too small for SF.

    I hope both Monk and Tatum are off the board by the time we pick. I don’t trust us to do the smart thing and just not pick them.

    I have a preference for Fox over Ntilikina just because we have a better idea of what he can do. It’s not like Fox is some low-ceiling guy, he could really be special if he learns to shoot. Ntilikina scares me for Exum/Mudiay reasons.

    Fox just hit a three so I think we can safely put all concerns about him to bed

    No need to worry about where the Knicks will be picking because they will be choosing 2nd and can take whoever is left over of either Fultz or Ball. Or maybe they can trade down?

    How do I know this? I dreamed it last night! A prophetic dream.

    It was a great dream. It was Draft Lottery Night, and the Knicks were revealed to be picking 2nd. The dream did not mention where the Knicks finished during the season, so I think that it does not matter…the ping pong balls will be chosen in our favor. Sorry that I couldn’t dream #1…we’ll have to settle for #2.

    Oh yeah, there is one little detail that troubles my mind. In my dream the Knicks representative at the lottery was none other than a widely smiling Charles Oakley!

    Perhaps James Dolan is a bit superstitious and can be convinced that my dream is prophecy. Thus, he needs to do whatever it takes to please Oak and get him to be there for the Knicks.

    I was completely sober last night and not under the influence of mind altering substances, though my wife is out of town this weekend, so perhaps I was a bit lonely.
    🙂

    Are we really that excited about his play vs. teams like Gravelines and Nancy?

    Hell yes. He’s finally getting a chance to start on a professional team at 18 years old. And, two, he’s excelling fairly well against that competition. Crap on the French professional league all you want but its not as if Fox, Ball, Fultz, etc. are playing top line competition every night. Look at some of the quality of competition they feast upon.

    It would be amazing if we actually had some luck at the lottery and moved up from 7th to 2nd. A guy like Ball could change things in a hurry.

    With our luck though, we finish 7th and get passed by two other teams, draft Monk with the 9th pick, and return to the deep despair from whence we came.

    Knicks basketball!

    Really I give Monk a lot of shit but I think he’ll be pretty good

    Just not what the knicks need and not as good as Fox and he has a low floor

    Fox has turned it over a lot this game but other than that he’s looked really good

    Monk does look like a good bet to be a rotation player in the NBA, which is what is so impressive about this draft, is that the amount of guys who look like rotation players at the back end of the top ten (twelve even) is high and that’s rare, as most drafts become crap shoots after #5 (some before #5 – like last year). I don’t want Monk on the Knicks, either, but at least he looks like he’ll be a legit NBA player.

    It’s sort of like Tyreke Evans Snydrome. No one wants to draft the next Tyreke Evans, but Evans is a player good enough to be in the rotation of pretty much every team in the NBA, so that’s legit value. But he’s still, you know, Tyreke Evans.

    And yeah, I do like how none of us are even entertaining the thought of the Knicks winning a top three pick in the lottery. 🙂 We’ve been inured to the Knicks luck by now. 🙂

    De’Aaron taking over

    Edit: wow that shot

    1) De’Aaron Fox making Z Man look stupid when he went right.

    2) That Kalipari is a shit coach lol. Do you see the sets they run at Kentucky? There’s a reason they don’t win very often.

    @64

    this is the stupidest argument ever.

    Should we be excited about a dude who played against OFI Crete, Lavrio and Filippos Verias BC, the second division of the greek league? You would have picked Shabazz Muhammad ahead of Giannis then.

    besides, Ntilikina has excelled in international high level competitions for their age, just like Giannis did… and before the strawman party tells me “oh so Ntilikina will be Giannis then?”, that’s obviously not what I’m saying.

    Fox is probably gonna play himself out of our range unless we tank harder 🙁

    Fox going off today makes it even more likely that we end up with the player who we are preordained to acquire, Frank Ntilikina, for better or for worse. Inevitable.

    Fox would have easily gone 2nd in last year’s draft. He can’t shoot but he went for 28 points on incredible efficiency (8-12 from the field, 11 for 15 from the stripe) in the biggest game they’ve played all year. I don’t get hung up about the assists because Kal’s system is set up to put his stars in position to go 1 on 1.

    And yeah Cal is a shit coach X’s and O’s wise (he had Towns coming off the bench playing 15-20 minutes a game LMAO)

    Great at recruiting/paying his players tho

    Okay, we know Ball and Fultz will go in the top two. Then Smith will probably go top six. I think Isaac goes top six. The good news, then, is that even if Frank and Fox both go top six, then that means that Josh Jackson is there at #7 and, come on, Josh Jackson is not going #7, so really, it means that Fox or Frank or Isaac or Smith will be there at #7 and the Knicks should at least be able to get to #7, I would hope. Where they will then pick Monk, of course, but still. 😉

    Yeah if we get the #6 pick we’re guaranteed one of Isaac Fox Smith or Frank

    Since it’s gonna be Fultz Ball Jackson unless Jackson really does poorly in the tournament.

    So we’re in a really good spot so long as we don’t go above 7.

    Can/will Smith play defense?

    Also, I’m telling you, Markkanen is a top 7 player. Think Nowitzki.

    So we’re in a really good spot so long as we don’t go above 7.

    Helllllllo, Pick #9! 😉

    @79

    Smith has the tools to play defense but he’s small and I think it’s mostly effort and IQ. He was asked to do a lot for State however so that might explain taking time off on that end. He’s quite good at getting steals though.

    He’s gonna be good I’m just very worried about his D.

    I think Markannen will be like Ryan Anderson (bad D, subpar rebounding, great shooting and size), which is good but not what we need

    Josh Jackson has character issues so don’t be surprised if he gets passed on in the top 5. Kansas suspended the girl who had her car vandalized by he and a teammate after they threw water on her. That’s not going to be forgiven or forgotten easily.

    We could very well end up with Ricky Rubio, Josh Jackson, and Frank Ntilikina on draft night if Cleveland gets smoked by Golden State/San Antonio like I expect they will. In my fantasy world Minnesota trades Rubio and their pick to us for Kevin Love while Cleveland gets Melo and Kyle O’Quinn or something.

    Dennis Smith Jr will likely always suck defensively. It’s not like whoever drafts him won’t be looking for him to be the focal point of their offense, so it’ll be more of the same story that you saw at NC State.

    @64

    this is the stupidest argument ever.

    Should we be excited about a dude who played against OFI Crete, Lavrio and Filippos Verias BC, the second division of the greek league? You would have picked Shabazz Muhammad ahead of Giannis then.

    besides, Ntilikina has excelled in international high level competitions for their age, just like Giannis did… and before the strawman party tells me “oh so Ntilikina will be Giannis then?”, that’s obviously not what I’m saying.

    What is stupid is your use of the word “excelled.” He’s averaging 1.4 assists/36 and 2.0 turnovers/36. Yeah, that’s really excelling! That’s what I’m hoping for in a PG! If he was excelling, he’d be going #3 and we wouldn’t be having this debate. And Giannis actually WAS excelling!

    http://www.fibaeurope.com/compID_UIfgjyQcGqk-fPlnl66Tj0.season_2013.roundID_9350.teamID_291.playerID_99285.html

    What is also stupid is you ignoring that I would actually draft Ntilikina at #7. I would just do so with very serious reservations, which I outlined.

    Should we be excited about a dude who played against OFI Crete, Lavrio and Filippos Verias BC, the second division of the greek league? You would have picked Shabazz Muhammad ahead of Giannis then.

    Who are you arguing against here? I am the primary proponent of placing Ntilikina’s competition in proper context and drafting him.

    Ntilikina can shoot, dribble with both hands, rebound and defend. He doesn’t hold the ball and moves well without it. Long, long arms and decent mobility. I loved how he played defense with his feet and by raising his arms while never leaving his feet or going for the fake. Young with a strong frame. Getting him would be a blessing and it might just happen as Fox, Markkanen, Tatum, Bridges, Monk, Smith steal the limelight.

    @86

    You know you presented 10 games of Giannis producing 8/7/2 per game in 30 minutes of per game play shooting 36% from the field, right? I think Ntilikina could beat that now if he were given the chance to play 30 minutes in the FIBA tournament.

    Hell, if anything you made a stronger case for Frank now. Thanks. We HAVE to get him.

    LOL 8 points per game at 37% FG percentage is “excelling” now. Hindsight is a motherfucker. If those numbers were from any other 18 year old not named Giannis Antetokoumpo would dog him harder than Frank.

    @83

    We could very well end up with Ricky Rubio, Josh Jackson, and Frank Ntilikina on draft night if Cleveland gets smoked by Golden State/San Antonio like I expect they will. In my fantasy world Minnesota trades Rubio and their pick to us for Kevin Love while Cleveland gets Melo and Kyle O’Quinn or something.

    Great fantasy, but I think my dream has as good a chance of happening! All we gotta do is get Oakley reconciled with Dolan so that Oak can be our rep on the night of the lottery. If so, we WILL get the 2nd pick. Someone email Dolan?
    🙂

    Monk was never a great shooter in high school, he was a pretty good shooter but did not show the sort of ability with his outside shot that he has shown thus far in the NCAA. I worry that it’s a fluke SSS thing, like Derrick Williams’ big year at Arizona.

    Frank is a super high risk pick. So was Giannis. In fact a lot of people criticized Milwaukee for taking him. If we really think Frank has Giannis type upside then the risk might be worth it, I don’t think he does. Right now he is simply long with a promising jumper, nothing about him says budding superstar.

    We need to draft at least a long term starter in this draft, we are building around a potential star and a promising rookie, we need a third piece. He doesn’t need to be a star just a good player. Frank has the most bust potential in the top 10 and I don’t think the upside to counter the risk. He is not dominating or even playing that much in a lower tier European league. A league that is worse than division 1 NCAA. At least Porzingis and Willy were playing in the ACB a league that is arguably the second best in the world.

    @87

    I was arguing with z-man and agreeing with you…

    and just reread my post z-man, and think again… international competition means outside of France.

    you get Ntilikina’s stats in his league and compare them to Giannis FIBA stats… while ignoring completely that Ntilikina excelled, yes, excelled to the point of being named tournament mvp of the u18s posting these stats:
    http://www.fiba.com/europe/u18/2016/Frank-NTILIKINA

    so yeah, it’s a stupid argument.

    Plus Giannis was the 15th pick in a weaker draft. At pick 10 or 12 Frank starts becoming a better risk at 7 he’s not worth it.

    If it comes down to between Monk and Frank I’ll take Frank but I just can’t justify it if Fox or smith are available

    I have to stress though: if Gaines and our euro scouts take a look at him and think he’s got the goods, I’ll believe them. But given the publicly available information I just don’t think we have enough to justify him over Fox.

    So Ben R, who would you take at 7 assumimg that Ball, Fultz, Smith, Fox and Jackson are gone? Tatum, Bridges, Markkanan, Monk, Isaac or Frank?

    In those 10 games, Giannis had 3 games with 11 or more rebounds, 3 more games with 7 or more. Rebounding is the single most transferrable skill. He had a game with 6 blocked shots. He had a game with 7 assists, a game with 6 assists and a game with 3 assists. So yes, I’d say that he excelled. Not to mention that his athleticism was off the charts.

    Ih his 19 games, Ntilikina as a POINT GUARD had 11 games with 0 (zero) assists, 5 games with 1 assist and topped out with 3 games with 2 assists. As a point guard! He had one game with 5 rebounds, one with 4, and 4 games with 3. The other 13 games he had two or fewer. And his athleticism (in particular, his burst) is a question mark.

    Even if Giannis couldn’t shoot, he could have been an all-defensive wing just on his athleticism and length alone. Ntilikina might be a good defensive guard/wing, but he’s nowhere near the raw athlete that Giannis was.

    I don’t think Philly takes Fox/Frank since they have MCConnell but who knows with them.

    Payton has been playing well of late so I don’t know if Orlando would chose another PG who can’t shoot. Also they have a bunch of wings so maybe not Isaac/Tatum. Markkanen actually would be a good fit there.

    Sacramento needs help at every position so they are a wildcard for the guys we want.

    Wait, so Ntilikina played well vs. the 18 year olds from other European countries? Well, that makes him a sure fire HOFer!!

    Giannis was a waaaaaaaaaay rawer talent than Frank. the former recently started playing organized basketball by the time scouts first saw him while the latter has been in the Belgium system since he was a little kid. Saying that they were two large risks is undervaluing how polished the latter’s game is compared the former. And no, Frank isn’t simply long – he plays long on defense as an elite help defender with a major defensive ceiling. One of the greatest indicators of success at this level is the ability to force turnovers, a skill Ntilikina is showing against older competition.

    In those 10 games, Giannis had 3 games with 11 or more rebounds, 3 more games with 7 or more. Rebounding is the single most transferrable skill. He had a game with 6 blocked shots. He had a game with 7 assists, a game with 6 assists and a game with 3 assists. So yes, I’d say that he excelled. Not to mention that his athleticism was off the charts

    Jesus, if you’re you’re going to evaluate talent at least be intellectually honest about.

    I can cherrypick too. Giannis also had two games where just scored 1 point, one game where he scored 3 points, two games where he scored 5 points, and 1 game where he scored 7 points. That’s six of out ten games where he was a single digit scorer averaging 3o minutes a game shooting 36.4% from the field. You mention rebounds. He had six games of 7 or less rebounds averaging 30 minutes a game. And guess what his assist/turnover ratio was as a major ballhandler for Greece? 2.2 to 2.8.

    Excelled my ass. Fact is that was all upside at this point in his development averaging 8/8/2 for that tournament as a starter.

    I must have missed it, please point me to the game where our savior at PG had more than 2 assists in a game.

    Derrick Rose grabbed an offensive rebound, set a screen and had an assist in the same play. This is bad news for the tank.

    Ntilikina was not playing as a Point Guard for pretty much the entire seasons he was being used mostly as a 2.

    and yes, excelling at the u18s is generally at least good indication of a good player, if you can’t even bother to look at wikipedia before saying bullshit. The list of u18 mvps since it began have players like Tony Parker, some legit NBA starters (Valanciunas, Batum, Kanter), some too young to judge players like Saric and Abrines (who’s quietly shooting pretty well in limited minutes) and dudes like Koufos and Motiejunas… also some who haven’t played in the NBA, like Charampopolous, Guven and Sipahi.

    I must have missed it, please point me to the game where our savior at PG had more than 2 assists in a game.

    You sound spitefully dumb now. But to answer your question you full well know the answer to, I will state that Frank doesn’t have more than 2 assists in any of his professional games. But since we all know Frank 1.) wasn’t a starter, 2.) wasn’t the primary ballhandler and that I 3.) fully admitted he might not be a PG in the longterm I don’t see what your point here is. Truth is that he could just as easily project into a SG, the same way Giannis has gone from positions 1 through 5 at various points in his career. He has the length, frame, and jumper to be a shooting guard in the future. Hell, if he continues to grow a future as a swingman might not be out of the picture.

    and yes, excelling at the u18s is generally at least good indication of a good player, if you can’t even bother to look at wikipedia before saying bullshit.

    In fact, the last two French players to lead their teams to victories in u18s were Tony Parker and Nicolas Batum.

    Wow, Aldridge is out indefinitely with a heart arrhythmia. That’s brutal for him.

    Seriously, Bruno and Philmelo, how dense can you be? I said 1000 times that I would draft him, even over Fox!

    Giannis was a steal at #15 in a very weak draft. Ntilikina is probably a much bigger risk at #5-7 in this much stronger draft, but a great pick at #8-12. All of the concerns I mention are echoed in DraftExpress. Not sure where all the venom is coming from.

    If the Knicks keep up this level of play we’ll be talking about the relative merits of Markelle Fultz and Lonzo Ball

    Chasson Randle with a running, midcourt 3 pointer as the 1st quarter ended so all is well 🙂

    And yes, I think a supposed PG that doesn’t get assists (and has an assist/TO ratio of less than 1.0) is suspect. Even if he was forced to play SG, he should have more assists per 36 than what he has. I truly don’t understand why anyone would take it personally that I was concerned about that.

    Knicks are starting to play well with you know who on the bench.

    As soon as the second unit came in came in the Knicks looked so much more fluid on offense. Maybe this is what the Triangle is actually supposed to look like.

    I mean, I’m sorry if it seems like venom, but you keep talking in a dismissive, ironic way, stuff like “wow he excelled against 18 year olds, he must be a HoFer”, and then you complain when people respond angrily.

    I’ve never said he’s amazing, first pick material, just that there’s real arguments against the stuff you pointed out that you are flat out ignoring or dismissing, like the u18 mvp thing.

    It is imperative that Hornacek benches Randle for the rest of the game lol..he’s playing too well right now. All jokes aside, I’m glad he’s finally on the team.

    Yeah. When history rates the Noel trade, it will probably ignore that Philadelphia had to waive Randle to do it. But I’m hoping we help show Philadelphia the error of their ways.

    That was after post #72. I’m wondering why the phrase “stupidest argument ever” was necessary. It’s just an asshole-ish thing to say, no matter how much you disagree with what I’m saying.

    The real irony (and stupidity) is that we essentially agree that Ntilikina would be a good pick for the Knicks at their draft spot, so obviously I’m not ignoring his accomplishments or I’d be saying we shouldn’t pick him. We just disagree on the risk involved. I see a very low floor for him as a PG based on his lack of burst and poor assist numbers in France, you don’t. Why is that such a big problem for you (and Philmelo, for that matter)?

    Kristaps…isn’t good at basketball anymore

    Please for the love of god make a leap in year 3 I don’t want to max another mediocre volume scorer

    Kristaps…isn’t good at basketball anymore

    He might still turn out be very good, but he’s among the most overrated young player out there right now. It’s those flashes of real brilliance and bursts of energy where he has an impact at both ends that make you think he can become a superstar. But between those eye catching moments there is a ton of mediocrity on both ends of the floor.

    good, bad or indifferent – the knicks have been in a bunch of competitive games for the last little while…

    boy are they bad at defense though…i forget how much the league in general is up in scoring…the three point shot seems to be a pretty dominant factor in today’s game…

    who knows, fast forward a few years – maybe every game will look like the all-star game…

    Chasson can definitely shoot. And he’s triangular too.

    A good loss. Randle played well. Willy looked good. KP had some high points. Oh sorry, am I too early?

    All Euro out there with Willy, KP, Kuz, Sasha and Randle.

    KP with 3 consecutive blocks. We should all suck like he does.

    Rose is back on track. Get it? On track. Like a tank.

    5/12 and 4 turnovers. KP with 6 blocks, though.

    KP may have had 18 points and 6 blocks at his young age but he still sucks. I read it here.

    Well, we lost a game we were supposed to lose. Now if we can blow it to the Nets tomorrow, it’ll be an awesome weekend.

    @135 Melo phoned it in.

    9 shots, 1 rebound and 0 defense.

    Willy is really turning out to be a tremendous find. A bright light in a dismal season.

    Drummond sucks

    Porzingis is god

    Melo is a max player

    Mike K. wrote a great piece yesterday

    Phil Jackson is not smart

    Every now and then I get a craving for a small, non-triangular point guard who can break down a defense and score or dish off ala Thomas or Kemba. I know I shouldn’t think that way because it’s so wrong. Like candy. Is Dennis Smith that guy?

    I love that Melo seems like he has given up completely, hopefully it rubs off onto the other veterans of this team.

    let the young ones play with Rose to guarantee the tank and keep it rolling.

    They should convince Melo to sit out the rest of the year with a phantom injury. His numbers are OK right now. Playing more can only hurt his trade value. And god forbid he got seriously hurt….

    We should rest Melo, KP and Lee tomorrow against the Nets. Rose is too valuable to rest.

    Pels blew a 110-103 lead in 50 seconds and are in OT. Their crunch time offense was laughable.

    He’s done nothing except miss a couple pullup 3s. The NO offense is all AD isos. So ugly.

    Luckily he’s hit enough that it looks like NO is going to hold on.

    With the Pels win we’re back in the 7 spot, which is where we need to be

    If it’s between Fox, Frank, and Isaac I draft Isaac. Fox in close 2nd.

    I think Isaac might end up the best in this draft. A potential KP/Isaac combo could be terrifying in a few years.

    Washington in second place in the East and San Antonio a half game out of first in the west. Who would have thought it.

    San Antonio is the best team in the NBA atm

    Yes he did. I’ve noticed his assist totals incrementally going up since we’ve instituted the Triangle.

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