Knicks Morning News (2016.11.21)

  • [ESPN] Monday’s Knicks News: Anthony plays big in win over Hawks
    (Monday, November 21, 2016 6:02:27 AM)

    Monday’s Knicks News: Anthony plays big in win over Hawks

  • [ESPN] Marshall Plumlee’s NBA debut includes sprint through New York
    (Monday, November 21, 2016 12:05:57 AM)

    Marshall Plumlee’s NBA debut includes sprint through New York

  • [ESPN] Knicks cite ‘productive’ team meeting after beating Hawks
    (Sunday, November 20, 2016 6:50:12 PM)

    Knicks cite ‘productive’ team meeting after beating Hawks

  • [ESPN] Rockets players support LeBron James’ stance on Phil Jackson’s ‘posse’ comments
    (Sunday, November 20, 2016 2:54:20 PM)

    Rockets players support LeBron James’ stance on Phil Jackson’s ‘posse’ comments

  • [SNY Knicks] Anthony’s 31 leads Knicks past Hawks, 104-94
    (Sunday, November 20, 2016 2:11:28 PM)

    Carmelo Anthony had 31 points and Kristaps Porzingis 19 points and 11 rebounds as the Knicks defeated the Hawks 104-94 Sunday at Madison Square Garden in a noon matinee.

  • [SNY Knicks] Illness sidelines Noah for Hawks game
    (Sunday, November 20, 2016 11:18:52 AM)

    Joakim Noah will miss Sunday’s Knicks game against the Hawks because of illness.

  • [SNY Knicks] Noah ‘not happy’ with play early in Knicks tenure
    (Sunday, November 20, 2016 10:59:52 AM)

    Through 12 games and 5-7 record, the Knicks are still making adjustments, and one of the newest members, Joakim Noah, believes he can play better.

  • [SNY Knicks] Baker sparks strong play from Plumlee in Westchester
    (Sunday, November 20, 2016 10:00:56 AM)

    Marshall Plumlee’s big night was sparked by guard Ron Baker.

  • [SNY Knicks] Knicks readying for strong Hawks team
    (Sunday, November 20, 2016 8:13:08 AM)

    The Atlanta Hawks (9-3) will attempt to slow down Kristaps Porzingis and the Knicks (5-7) Sunday at Madison Square Garden.

  • [SNY Knicks] TKB Podcast: Phil’s Big Mouth, Knicks Small Ball
    (Sunday, November 20, 2016 7:13:56 AM)

    TKB Podcast: Phil’s Big Mouth, Knicks Small Ball

  • [NYTimes] On Pro Basketball: Phil Jackson Perches Atop the Knicks, and a Soapbox
    (Monday, November 21, 2016 1:39:00 AM)

    The Knicks’ president, back in the public cross hairs, has not hesitated to expound on other teams’ issues even as he and his players have stumbled.

  • [NYTimes] Knicks 104, Hawks 94: Knicks Patch Things Up, Then Fix Some Problems Against the Hawks
    (Monday, November 21, 2016 1:07:20 AM)

    The Knicks aired their grievances in a team meeting on Saturday and then put together the kind of defensive performance that had been a rarity for them.

  • [NYDN] Marshall Plumlee’s NBA debut was unforgettable – for the commute
    (Sunday, November 20, 2016 6:16:42 PM)

    Plumlee was asleep when he got the call at about 10 a.m. — the Knicks needed his help.

  • [NYDN] Carmelo Anthony – Knicks president divide making Garden no Eden
    (Sunday, November 20, 2016 5:51:18 PM)

    Carmelo Anthony never met a shot he didn’t take. At Phil Jackson, that is.

  • [NYDN] Carmelo goes off for 31, Jackson keeps mum in Knicks meeting
    (Sunday, November 20, 2016 5:42:07 PM)

    It took less than a month before the Knicks held a long team meeting to hash out their problems and recalibrate.

  • [NYPost] This is why Knicks are still Carmelo’s team — no matter your yells
    (Sunday, November 20, 2016 12:27:44 PM)

    Every now and again, the buzz inside Madison Square Garden lets you know what the people want, where they want this Knicks team to go — where, specifically, they would like the basketball to go. Sometimes, Kristaps Porzingis isn’t really open. Doesn’t really matter. When he gets position inside, under the basket, when he finds…

  • [NYPost] Marshall Plumlee’s ‘crazy’ dash to Knicks debut: Cabbie bribe, NYC sprint
    (Sunday, November 20, 2016 11:11:31 AM)

    Knicks rookie center Marshall Plumlee had visions of how his NBA debut would come about, but could never have imagined this, arriving midway through the first quarter after a harried commute and dash through the streets of Manhattan. “It was crazy,’’ Plumlee said. “I feel I could write a book about it.’’ It started with…

  • [NYPost] Knicks emerge from team meeting with fire in bruising win
    (Sunday, November 20, 2016 9:33:53 AM)

    Another Knicks crisis was brewing after a dozen games and a 5-7 record. The Knicks staged an emergency meeting — one hour long with team president Phil Jackson and coaches in attendance — as part of Saturday’s marathon 3 ½-hour practice session. Then two hours before Sunday’s noon start against the Eastern Conference power Hawks,…

  • [NY Newsday] Knicks beat Hawks after constructive ‘clear the air’ meeting with Phil Jackson
    (Sunday, November 20, 2016 9:21:00 PM)

    The Knicks’ loss in Washington didn’t sit well with anyone. So the players, coaches and team president Phil Jackson sat down and cleared the air during an hourlong meeting.

  • [NY Newsday] Marshall Plumlee sprints through traffic to make NBA debut
    (Sunday, November 20, 2016 7:56:15 PM)

    Marshall Plumlee made his NBA debut Sunday in one of the most bizarre and most New York ways imaginable.

  • 176 replies on “Knicks Morning News (2016.11.21)”

    Melo currently with a career high tying .575 TS%( first 27 games as a Knick after the trade in 2011)with a career high by miles .315 3pa rate. And a career high tying 114 offensive rating tying the same first 27 game period as a Knick.

    Good, pump that trade value up.

    Re: KP at the 5 small ball from previous thread

    That happened very little yesterday. KOQ, Willy and Plumlee played a combined 51 minutes last night. The only stretch where KP played as the lone big was the last 4 minutes of the 4th at which point the game was in hand.

    You’re right I forgot that either Willy or Plumlee was in with him on the second unit

    Don’t even know why I’m surprised

    We need more assets man and I don’t see where they are coming from beyond a weak FA group and the draft – which is always a crap shoot.

    Don’t look now, but KP is playing better than Towns, Turner and Jokic. It’s only 13 games, but anyone who at any time thought that trading him for any of those guys was a no brainer should at least be given pause right now. He’s playing to a .184 WS48 with a .600 TS% and still is not hitting FTs or blocking shots near reasonable expectations.

    Speaking of Jokic. He seems to be slumping since they moved him from starting C to a backup PF languishing on Denver’s bench playing irregular minutes. Anyone interested in buying low?

    I don’t like small ball against a team like Atlanta that has dominant big men like Howard and Millsap. On the other hand, Portland is a small, guard-dominant team. They have a front court of Plumlee, Harknes and Aminu and a “small” lineup matches up better. Lilliard and McCullum are the players that worry me.

    My real fear is that there’ll be a let-down by the team after the big win against Atlanta.

    @7 the celts have had assets for years and have done nothing with it. The Knicks have a chance to be good now AND still have draft picks and cap space.

    I’ll take that thanks

    @8 they seem to be solid at home. The Jazz loss should have been a win and the Rockets are just a horrible matchup for this team

    @7 the celts have had assets for years and have done nothing with it. The Knicks have a chance to be good now AND still have draft picks and cap space.

    Very true, but the reason the Celts have done nothing is because they’ve never be able to score a generational superstar talent. Since 2010 they’ve had twenty one picks. The best players they have to show for that hoarding of picks so far is Avery Bradley, Marcus Smart, Tery Rozier, and Demetrius Jackson – not a one of which any NBA franchise can build a championship caliber ball club. Its why they are so willing to trade their picks to get a legit franchise big man like Cousins or Griffin.

    But, on the other hand, the Knicks have the opposite problem due to the fact that by insane luck it was able to chose with its only top 5 draft pick since 1986, a generational type talent teams like the Celts tank to get. So unlike Boston, we’ve got the missing piece. The key is to build around him to maximize team talent for a championship run during his prime seasons. Our starting roster is currently constructed of players who will long be washed up by then. Shouldn’t we at least begin to acknowledge that the surest way of ensuring that Kris will be properly supported when its his time to ascend is so to trade his older superstar teammate sooner rather later?

    Why can’t we just add young pieces incrementally, year-by-year via the draft and keep our core moving forward? We added WillyBilly this year. Let’s see if Ron or Randle can be something. Next year we have our first round pick and two second round picks. We have all of our first round picks moving forward and second round picks in the next 2 drafts.

    If we get some awesome offer for Melo, sure let’s do it, but the world isn’t going to end if we hold on to him. As it is his contract will expire right when KP’s rookie extension would kick in, so we’re likely to have flexibility in adding pieces moving forward. Noah and Lee’s would expire the following year.

    Shouldn’t we at least begin to acknowledge that the surest way of ensuring that Kris will be properly supported when its his time to ascend

    In sports there is no such thing as a “sure” thing. Aka a bird in the hand. Imagine if in 2009 the Mavs drafted harden. (Dirk would have been 31 like Melo was) I don’t think the mavs would have been clamoring to trade Dirk “so Harden can ascend” how does that make sense?

    Why can’t we just add young pieces incrementally, year-by-year via the draft and keep our core moving forward? We added WillyBilly this year.

    Do you think adding mid-to late round picks is going to give us that new core we want to surround Kris with? Only time I’ve seen a franchise do that is in San Antonio back when the Euroleagues were still an unexplored source of talent and they were able to pick up guys like Ginobili and Parker in the late first, early second rounds.

    In sports there is no such thing as a “sure” thing.

    Right, but all we can do is plan as best we can for the future.

    Imagine if in 2009 the Mavs drafted harden. (Dirk would have been 31 like Melo was) I don’t think the mavs would have been clamoring to trade Dirk “so Harden can ascend” how does that make sense?

    Your analogy only works if you believe that the 2015 Knicks team KP was drafted into had comparable talent to the 2009 team Mavericks team you hypothesize Harden being drafted into. But that Mavs team was a 55 win team that finished first in the Midwest Division. They couldn’t have picked a James Harden since they were picking 24th and he was a top 3 pick.

    Jimmy Butler, Paul George, Draymond, jokic,

    Don’t you want to increase your chance of getting this type of talent by increasing your picks?

    @16 no that’s kind of a red herring. All I said was imagine that the Mavs had the same Dirk and drafted Harden. Nothing else matters. Why would they have traded Dirk?

    @17 see the Boston point that you Made above.

    What about it? My point is about increasing opportunities to build around KP. I would love have Boston’s picks now. And you better believe Ainge would want to keep every pick he has right now if he had scored a KP type player like he wanted to when he traded Pierce, Garnett, and Rondo away.

    All I said was imagine that the Mavs had the same Dirk and drafted Harden. Nothing else matters. Why would they have traded Dirk?

    Like hell its a red herring. In order for this analogy to make sense you’d have to compare similar scenarios. If we were as talented and successful as that 2009-2010 Mavericks team we A.) wouldn’t be having this discussion since we’d be one of the elite title contending teams in the league (which we certainly are not coming of 2015-16) and B.) we probbably wouldn’t have even had the opportunity to pick a player as talented as KP or Harden to begin with the year before.

    You’re just making up a scenario that suits your perspective without even think about its comparability to where the Knicks are now as a franchise. At least propose a scenario that shows some similarity to where this current Knicks team is.

    If we get some awesome offer for Melo, sure let’s do it, but the world isn’t going to end if we hold on to him. As it is his contract will expire right when KP’s rookie extension would kick in, so we’re likely to have flexibility in adding pieces moving forward. Noah and Lee’s would expire the following year.

    This is a good point, Lavor. You’re right. Hopefully we will be able to entice a free agent by then into staying. My pipedream is that KAT secretly dreams of returning to the NJ/NY area where he grew up to play for his childhood team and help bring us a title. It would be Twin Towers 3.0 (The first being Samson/Olajuwon while the second was Robinson/Duncan).

    Fwiw the Knicks have a pretty decent draft record when they actually have picks to use, lol. Whereas the Celtics have one of the worst drafting outcomes given how few picks they’ve hit on relative to the amount they used.

    I’d kill for Bostons picks and we wouldn’t squander them on the likes of Jaylen Brown at 3

    This is a good point, Lavor.

    Broken clock and all that.

    Idk man, I just can’t really get upset about the Knicks’ future when KP is 5 years old. I think even as often batshit crazy as the Knicks are, that a 7-8 year window in a situation where you keep your picks and can create cap flex in most summers is more than enough time to tool and re-tool a competitive roster around KP.

    Just as a note our number 9 pick in Toronto, Jakob Poeltl, is putting together a nice rookie season.

    Bargs, the gift that keeps on giving!

    Real test tomorrow to see if we can contain Lillard and McCollum. Big difference from Schroeder and Korver. Our weakness has always been defending the pick and roll and getting through high screens, so I’m hoping (maybe against hope) that this new found defensive intensity will carry over to the Blazers game. Would be a huge letdown to lose that one after a nice win against Atlanta.

    Also, I don’t know if anyone saw the end of the Raptors-Kings game, but a game tying 3 by Ross was disallowed because the clock was started late after a deflection by Cousins. What drove me crazy about the commentary (including former NBA players) was that they kept harping on the fact that time keepers are human and he may not have seen the deflection. But timekeepers are supposed to be watching the ref “chop” in the clock, not the play, which the referee clearly did last night as soon as Cousins deflected the pass.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVkL0nCErKs

    So there really is no excuse, except possibly home court bias by the time keeper.

    RAS I see where you are going with this. Melo for Jokic makes too much sense.

    I love KP but can we all cool it on the generational talent stuff.

    We don’t need to go out and Cronin the young fella….

    I think even as often batshit crazy as the Knicks are, that a 7-8 year window in a situation where you keep your picks and can create cap flex in most summers is more than enough time to tool and re-tool a competitive roster around KP.

    You’re right but I feel like experiencing the Ewing era as a young fan has made me irrationally paranoid about how to build around your stud big man. We spent so many of his prime seasons in obscurity until Riley came along missed on some very talented players along the way. I always felt we could have done a better job supporting him.

    Just as a note our number 9 pick in Toronto, Jakob Poeltl, is putting together a nice rookie season.

    Toronto has one of the most underrated front offices in the business right now. I’d put them second only to the Spurs. Its crap like this which makes me so upset when I think about the opportunities we squandered under Melo to add young, cheap and effective talent around him.

    You’re just making up a scenario that suits your perspective without even think about its comparability to where the Knicks are now as a franchise. At least propose a scenario that shows some similarity to where this current Knicks team is.

    Nah. You are missing my point completely. I said if Dallas drafted Harden, with Dirk on the roster irregardless of anything else, why would you trade Dirk. They don’t play the same position or the same way. I’m just using 31 year old Dirk as an example. Make up any scenario you like and it comes back to the same point. Why would you trade the vet?

    Nah. You are missing my point completely. I said if Dallas drafted Harden, with Dirk on the roster irregardless of anything else, why would you trade Dirk

    So basically your point is to recreate a draft scenario which had no realistic chance of happening and ignore the context of the Mavs being an elite team contending for title which negates their need to trade Dirk in your scenario all to support an analogy which fails to consider that the reason we’d want to trade our star is because we’re a losing team with little chance of contending for a title while said star still in the prime-ish years of his career.

    Got it.

    You might as well give me a counterfactual where Lebron has a vagina, plays for the WNBA on the LA Sparks, and the NBA East is therefore wide open for anyone to take. It would be way more creative and only a little less believable.

    We don’t need to go out and Cronin the young fella….

    If it was just a bunch of homerific fans like me that would be one thing – but coaches and players are saying the same thing. They know who can ball and who to watch out for coming up in the league. He’s special. Phil knows it, Hornacek knows it and other Knicks players know it.

    ok ignore the premise and refuse to answer. Great deflecting job.

    LOL. I did answer. I told you the Mavs shouldn’t want to trade Dirk in your impossible hypothetical where they have a James Harden because they were a contender in those years where he was in his early 30s with one of the best records in the NBA and legit shot at winning a title. They should be gearing up to win a title with so young a talent.

    In our situation we should look to trade Melo because our team hasn’t even been a playoff contender since 2012-2013 and may very not make it this year either. Its a completely different context.

    It wouldn’t surprise me if KP takes the QO and then bolts from the Knicks in 3 years. His teammates at that time would be ancient Noah and Lee plus an extended Melo on a Dolan sweetheart deal. We’d be reliant on signing 29+ yo players to Conley type mega free agent deals. Why would he want to stay under those conditions? If KD could leave OKC, KP could leave Knicks. We should be in fire sale and tank mode this year while we still have a chance at acquiring some young players for our aging flotsam.

    I also think that just adding incrementally with our draft picks and whatever cap space we have going forward while keeping Melo and the core is the best way to go. Melo is a great mentor for KP and the two of them have a very nice one two punch going. Some nights its Melo getting more points, sometimes its KP. I really like their friendship and synergy. We can lament signing Noah or having Derrick Rose but man its early in Noah’s contract. He had the flu yesterday. He’s still been valuable for us and you know Lopez started out slow for us last year so give Noah a break. And Rose is a one year rental (for now). Lee is perfectly fine. I mean cap space does need to be spent and he will be tradeable.

    We have a nice mix of vets and youth with Melo as the aging superstar (he didn’t look old yesterday) and KP the guy on the rise. This team is just starting to get their groove on. Lets see what happens. Put aside your worries about the future and just enjoy the ride. We got draft picks going forward. I mean who’s to say even if we are a bubble team Phil doesn’t trade that pick plus one of our second rounders to move up in the draft? KQ is showing his worth. Willie H is all ready proving to be a very solid pick up by Phil (not mentioned at all on this blog ever). May Ron or NDour or Randle if he gets called up can prove valuable. I just don’t get the hand wringing sometimes. Phil isn’t perfect but he got us KP. He got us Willie H. We have picks going forward and cap space too. Life ain’t that bad ya’ll!

    It wouldn’t surprise me if KP takes the QO and then bolts from the Knicks in 3 years.

    Who has ever done this? Why would KP do this?

    His teammates at that time would be ancient Noah and Lee plus an extended Melo on a Dolan sweetheart deal. We’d be reliant on signing 29+ yo players to Conley type mega free agent deals. Why would he want to stay under those conditions? If KD could leave OKC, KP could leave Knicks. We should be in fire sale and tank mode this year while we still have a chance at acquiring some young players for our aging flotsam.

    You already know what the roster will look like at a time when we’ll have Melo’s $$ coming off the cap sheet and with 2 free agency and draft periods in between? I’m pretty confident regardless of how it goes the Knicks will have more teammates for him than Noah, Lee and Melo.

    Also, we are now 4-2 at home and really that Utah game we should have won. So we could very well be 5-1 at home. 3 out of the last 4 with the only loss being a back to back on the road? Defense seems to be improved. KP is getting his score on. I don’t know. Is it so bad to think we might have something going here?

    @39

    One of the things that really worried me was our depth behind Noah if/when he got injured. Is still early but we look like we have some damn good depth at the C position.

    I’d only get really worried if Melo/KP go down.

    We have a nice mix of vets and youth with Melo as the aging superstar (he didn’t look old yesterday) and KP the guy on the rise. This team is just starting to get their groove on. Lets see what happens.

    I wouldn’t trade Melo this season for the reasons you’re outlining here. I believe that veteran mentorship and playing for something matters in developing young, hungry players. You can see what a culture of futility and a lack of veteran presence has done to frustrated youngsters like Jahlil Okafor, DeMarcus Cousins, and Anthony Davis to a lesser extent.

    But I would seriously begin to consider trading Melo in this season or the next if KP shows he can keep up his pace for a full season of work because its better to get rid of a valuable asset sooner than to hold onto it after its value has precipitously diminished.

    Trade Melo for who? I always ask this and never get a reasonable trade that would work for either team.

    Who has ever done this? Why would KP do this?

    KD just gave up significant dollars. Monroe took the QO. Davis is gonna wish he took the QO. David West took less money.

    You already know what the roster will look like at a time when we’ll have Melo’s $$ coming off the cap sheet and with 2 free agency and draft periods in between?

    I know it’s almost impossible to snag a promising young player in free agency nowadays. And we’re gonna be just good enough to render our draft picks a low probability of working out. RE Melo: History suggests odds are Dolan will extend him in his final year.

    Trade Melo for who? I always ask this and never get a reasonable trade that would work for either team.

    That’s impossible for anyone outside of Phil and Melo to answer because such a trade would be contingent on a numbers of important factors, particularly with regards to where Melo would allow Phil to trade him to. Already this puts major constraints on the type of value we can procure for his talent on the trade market.

    From my perspective, the most likely candidates for a trade are the Lakers, Clippers, and maybe the Heat or Bulls. All of these are teams that either exist in big markets or desirable locations for title contention that he would be comfortable playing out the remainder of his contract for. But in order for this scenario to even be considered it would have to be made clear to Melo that this team doesn’t have the pieces to contend as it is currently configured. I sadly believe that this is a hard lesson we’ll all soon learn by the end of the 16-17 season.

    LOL. I did answer. I told you the Mavs shouldn’t want to trade Dirk in your impossible hypothetical where they have a James Harden because they were a contender in those years where he was in his early 30s with one of the best records in the NBA and legit shot at winning a title. They should be gearing up to win a title with so young a talent.

    OK, I’ll try to help er with this one. Should the Celtics have traded Paul Pierce and built around Al Jefferson?

    KD just gave up significant dollars. Monroe took the QO. Davis is gonna wish he took the QO.

    KD’s made his hundreds of millions and has a $300m shoe deal with Nike as well. He’s at a much different point in his career and he didn’t give up a lot of money. He can now sign for the 35% max instead of the 30% he was eligible for last summer.

    Monroe took a QO and didn’t get an offer sheet that summer from another team and wasn’t able to come to an agreement with Detroit on an extension. He didn’t play for the QO, because of some genius ambition or foresight on his part.

    Davis got a $125m and captured financial security for him and his family moving forward. Young guys aren’t thinking about maximizing championship windows for the most part. They want to set themselves and their loved ones up forever.

    I know it’s almost impossible to snag a young player in free agency nowadays. And we’re gonna be just good enough to render our draft picks a low probability of working out.

    You can sign good players in free agency every summer. The Hawks do it every year and succeed. Also plenty of non-lottery picks that turn into quality NBA players. There are plenty of unknowns that can change the fortunes of the Knicks.

    Melo is not leaving after the end of his contract.

    He will retire as Knick with a similar contract as Kobe or Nowitzky.

    Then we can complain about the wasted prime years of KP.

    Is it so bad to think we might have something going here?

    I guess it depends what you mean by something, but that was a nice win yesterday

    @ 43 – just good enough to render our draft picks useless.

    Do you even hear yourself? The NBA is full of late first round players who are good players. Its also littered with players who were drafted in the lottery who suck. Scouting counts for something. Also, drafting players and developing them on teams where they have veterans who know the NBA and are good and the team is competing….that counts for something. Do you think the Spurs just get lucky? Or is it because the dudes they draft go into a system and program that is well coached, has lots of great and experience veterans to teach those kids how to play and how to handle the NBA and they play games that actually matter!

    Also, you discount any ability for Phil to trade up. He could very well trade our first and a second to move up in this draft. Or trade both second rounders for another first rounder. There are ways to improve those picks.

    Should the Celtics have traded Paul Pierce and built around Al Jefferson?

    Hell, no. Because Al Jefferson was a poor man’s Jahlil Okafor and Pierce was just 26-27….he had enough time for the team to surround him for another title run after Walker ate himself out of the league.

    Please stahp with the Melo trade rumors. Dude is not getting traded. He has his NTC and he is not waiving it to go to Miami or the Bulls, and the Clippers and Lakers really have no use for him. Enough already with the Melo trade talk, it’s like Groundhog Day. We’ve been talking about Melo trades for at least four years now.

    He will be here until his contract ends and then probably beyond that. Dude will be a Knick until Donald Trump Jr. is coronated Great Leader and puts on the jacket with epaulets on it and shit.

    Epaulets are the fringey gold trim that go on the jackets of military leaders and various strongman dictators

    He will retire as Knick with a similar contract as Kobe or Nowitzky.

    I don’t see it. It could be my own biased projection but I don’t believe the Phil Jackson front office, the NYC media or even NYK fans are as sentimental about Melo to keep him well after prime seasons the way the Lakers and Mavericks community clamored to keep Kobe or Dirk, and even in Kobe’s case the Lakers were close to trading him out of LA.

    Melo was neither drafted nor associated with a title run in a Knicks uniform for that type of attachment to form the way it did for Patrick Ewing. Hell, just a few weeks of Linsanity divided the entire community about his alpha dog status on the Knicks.

    Having Melo here is a perfect incubator for KP. Let KP grow into being the focal point of the offense, the team and the press. Currently that role is Melo’s, or at worst, is shared with Melo. Is that really such a bad thing?

    If someone would come to the Knicks with an offer or if the situation between the two became untenable then fine shop Melo, but neither has happened so let it ride.

    KD’s made his hundreds of millions and has a $300m shoe deal with Nike as well.

    Who’s to say KP might not have a lucrative shoe deal as well in a couple of years making it all the more likely he might take the QO?

    They’re the strips of cloth or metal on the shoulders of a shirt or uniform

    Stefan Bondy is generally more of the same for Knicks beat reporters, but he snagged this beauty:

    Willy Hernangomez on Dwight Howard’s cheap shot: “They told me about that but I didn’t feel nothing. Maybe he felt pain in his elbow.”

    http://www.espn.com/blog/new-york/knicks/post/_/id/65659/knicks-cite-productive-team-meeting-after-beating-hawks

    “Without Melo, it would be much more difficult for me to get those 30 points, or 28. People don’t realize that. But that’s how it is. He draws a lot of attention, and he’s the main focus for the other team. That opens up stuff for me. So without him, it would be much more difficult

    Lets chill out before putting the whole franchise on KP’s back.

    The other aspect no one is talking about lies in the possibility that one who will force a Melo trade is Melo himself if he believes this team will not/cannot contend for a title for the remainder of his contract. He’s openly expressed his dissatisfaction with the past few years despite trying to be a good soldier as the franchise retools around him. And while pride may keep him from leaving without bringing a title to NYC his urgency to win while he’s still a perennial All-Star talent may force his hand.

    @57 dude, let it go. Never has, never will happen. Of the examples you cited, the only one that actually parallels KP’s situation was a rookie who did re-up with the dumpster fire team who drafted him.

    Lets chill out before putting the whole franchise on KP’s back.

    That quote is the reason why I wouldn’t trade Melo this season. To me the equation everyone has to consider is whether the current value of keeping him around to contend with and help develop KP is greater than the future value that can be added by trading him for picks/players. We haven’t passed that threshold yet. Yet. But things change.

    Hell, no. Because Al Jefferson was a poor man’s Jahlil Okafor and Pierce was just 26-27….he had enough time for the team to surround him for another title run after Walker ate himself out of the league.

    Al Jefferson was much better than Jahlil Okafor (Not to mention that he was highly regarded at the moment of the trade), Pierce was 30, and the Celtics finished 24-58 before getting Garnett and Allen.

    Jahlil Okafor seems to have the problem of being a really terrible player. That pick seems like a complete whiff, like a Darko Milicic-sized whiff. He’s the one guy they drafted who has stayed healthy but unfortunately he just sucks.

    KP doesn’t seem to be the type of player who will leave a franchise high and dry. He’s of a different sort in that he’s fine to be patient and wait things out without getting the fever for a shinier object. Again, I could be misreading the situation, but he seems like a loyal type.

    Jahlil Okafor seems to have the problem of being a really terrible player. That pick seems like a complete whiff, like a Darko Milicic-sized whiff. He’s the one guy they drafted who has stayed healthy but unfortunately he just sucks.

    So maybe when all is said and done THJr. did us a big favor winning those meaningless games at the end of 2014-2015. Maybe if we lose those games, we get more ping pong balls and the 3rd pick and Phil drafts Okafor,

    Alternate timeline which would have set this franchise back many years.

    Am I wrong here? Jefferson was drafted in the 2004 draft. In 2004-05 season Pierce played 82 games as a 27 year old. Kris was drafted in 2015 when Melo was 31.

    KP doesn’t seem to be the type of player who will leave a franchise high and dry. He’s of a different sort in that he’s fine to be patient and wait things out without getting the fever for a shinier object. Again, I could be misreading the situation, but he seems like a loyal type.

    @67 Definitely. Speculating on KP leaving anytime soon is really out there.

    President Hillary Rodham-Clinton agrees.

    I mean on this blog over and over again people talk about how important it is to draft your franchise player bc the way the NBA is set up makes it very enticing for players to stay with the team that drafted them. They get longer contracts and bigger pay increases. But KP is going to buck trend and leave us as soon as he can bc Knicks and Melo is selfish and PJ is a triangle obsesses alzheimers victim and Isiah Thomas is lurking in the background secretly controlling everything or something like that.

    Am I wrong here? Jefferson was drafted in the 2004 draft. In 2004-05 season Pierce played 82 games as a 27 year old. Kris was drafted in 2015 when Melo was 31.

    OK, I was thinking at the time they traded Jefferson, which is a better comparison point, since we are not talking about trading Melo at the time we drafted Porzingis (when you don’t know if the pick is going to pan out or not), but now.

    KP just said the other day in a post game interview how important it was for him to have Melo as a teammate bc Melo draws so much attention from opposing team’s defenses that it makes his life easier. I have no doubt KP would still become a good player if Melo wasn’t here but having Melo here to lighten the load and not put all the pressure on KP to be the man every night is hugely underestimated on this blog. When he dropped 35 a few games ago, Melo still had like 21 points or something. The two compliment each other well and yeah Melo is in “decline” but its not like he’s falling off a cliff. As Melo ages and declines, KP will pick up the slack. Melo still seems to have some gas left in the tank too. He looks to be having a good season. After that, its 2 more seasons on his contract. Doesn’t seem like its going to be an albatross at all. Next year would be the year to trade him I think if we ever want to do that.

    Poster #1; I wouldn’t be surprised if there are life forms secretly dwelling on Mars, Jupiter or Saturn and plotting the destruction of our planet.

    Poster #2: I think that’s pretty far-fetched and unlikely.

    Poster #1: President Hillary Rodham Clinton agrees.

    @71 I’m just gonna repeat back to you what you’re saying: “there’s a real chance KP will take a $7.5 million dollar QO in 2019 instead of his scheduled >$100M extension.”

    OK, I was thinking at the time they traded Jefferson, which is a better comparison point, since we are not talking about trading Melo at the time we drafted Porzingis (when you don’t know if the pick is going to pan out or not), but now.

    Yes, good point. It doesn’t change my point though because the differential in ages stays the same. If Melo were 27 when KP was drafted we wouldn’t be having this discussion at all. Those extra 4 years make a huge difference.

    KP doesn’t seem to be the type of player who will leave a franchise high and dry. He’s of a different sort in that he’s fine to be patient and wait things out without getting the fever for a shinier object. Again, I could be misreading the situation, but he seems like a loyal type.

    Have you heard him talk lately? He has really absorbed the low-key, half-mumbly intonation of a native New Yorker like Carmelo Anthony. I’m shocked by how much he sounds like Carmelo, actually. The adoption of the New York accent makes me think that he could be one of those guys who realizes his good draft fortune (being drafted to a legitimately great city, as opposed to Milwaukie or Phoenix, blech) and also has the ability to feel comfortable in a new place.

    When I was moved to Portland, I very quickly realized my good fortune (having been moved here as an internal company transfer) and had no regrets about leaving the tri-state. Since then I’ve met other people in my industry who’ve moved from lesser places like Birmingham, AL or Bumblefuck, MO, and they’re perpetually homesick, despite living in one of the most beautiful, safe and clean urban areas in the country. This is total armchair psychology, but it seems to me like KP is one of those guys who is able to assimilate and fit in.

    That said, if the Lakers or Bulls put together a future contender and he gets a max offer, I don’t know if he wouldn’t listen. Couldn’t see him in Oklahoma City, but could definitely see him elsewhere if it meant playing meaningful basketball. Really rocking in my armchair, right now.

    Okafor sucks at basketball in virtually every way.

    The world is changing. KP’s poised to be an international superstar and – let’s be frank about this – a white one. He’ll likely have financial security through plenty of endorsement contracts before he becomes a RFA. The one thing he won’t want to be at that stage is a perennial loser. And he’s more likely want to remain loyal if team doesn’t play him at the 5 and begins to build its future around him. Simply put: maximize his and the franchise’s future instead of Melo’s present.

    KP is putting up awesome numbers at th 4. He’s being maximized just fine, but yeah he’s gonna do something nobody has ever done because Phil and Melo and Knicks.

    I’ve been one of the more vocal advocates of doing a true rebuild here, but that opportunity has come and gone. The best course of action with this team going forward is to try to win, rather than try to tank, because we want Kristaps to want to stay here.

    Next offseason is going to be key. Derrick Rose has got to go, that is priority #1. His contract expires, and that cap space should be used on non-Derrick Rose players. I know it hasn’t been 20 games yet, but spoiler alert: he’s not worth a max contract or anything near it.

    It also might not be real possible, but priority #2 would be trading Joakim Noah’s contract before it becomes untradeable. Noah can still do some stuff on the court but 4/72 for his level of production is complete insanity. I’m trying to rack my brain and figure out what team might be interested in Noah but I’m drawing a blank.

    Man, you guys are ridiculous. All ready finding a reason for KP to leave the Knicks. Just chill out. He’s 20 years old and our team could be a playoff team this year. We got draft picks going forward, Melo to support him, and cap space next year.

    I get that being a Knicks fan means expecting the worst but for a site that prides itself on analysis and numbers you really fall for all the media trolling and fake negative hype that people constantly put on this franchise bc it gets clicks and headlines. Things have been pretty stable since PJ took over. And no I’m not some PJ loyalists. He’s made good moves and bad moves (like all GMS). But here’s what I know.

    1. We have KP – future franchise player.
    2. We have Melo – current all star/borderline franchise player.
    3. 1 and 2 get along with each other great.
    4. We have a good coach in place.
    5. We have draft picks going forward including multiple second round picks
    6. We have at least one other young player who shows promise in Willie H.
    7. We have market value contracts with Lee, KQ, Jennings.
    8. We have cap space next year.
    9. Ndour, Ron, Randle, Plumlee, Kuz – other young to prime (Kuz) guys who could all be potentially pieces to build on.

    The only knock I see on this team long term is Noah’s contract and even that is just potentially bad. I guess Lance is not looking great right now but he’s not getting paid a huge sum, just an overpay relative to what he’s shown us this year. But he could still bounce back. Rose expires this year. Maybe we resign him at a super mega max and he blows out his knee and KP leaves and we’re doomed forever bc Knicks. Or maybe Phil lets him go and we get CP3 after moving Lance. Or maybe we resign Rose to a reasonable deal.

    I just don’t get the hand wringing at all. The championship or tank mindset…I can think of very few tanking teams where it works out actually.

    If you really want to trade Noah, which I don’t yet, I think you have to find a swap of unsavory contracts so something like Noah for Crabbe if Portland continues to suck balls on defense and crabbe isn’t giving them anything beyond spot up shooting.

    Re: Lance Thomas, everyone was pretty happy with that contract this off season and he hasn’t played more than 10 games this year… definitely too early to write that one off

    The adoption of the New York accent makes me think that he could be one of those guys who realizes his good draft fortune (being drafted to a legitimately great city, as opposed to Milwaukie or Phoenix, blech) and also has the ability to feel comfortable in a new place.

    I genuinely take KP at his word when he says it was a dream for him to be drafted by the Knicks. I think when many people born outside the US think of our country think of NY first. It truly is a world city that loves basketball, which makes it a dream situation for a lot Europeans to live. LA is too plastic, Chicago is too provincial, and Miami is too ostentatious.

    This is total armchair psychology, but it seems to me like KP is one of those guys who is able to assimilate and fit in.

    His time in Sevilla, Spain already proved it to me. He was able to adopt the language, make friends, and become a part of the community there so far away from his family. But even more important to me is the refreshing mentality he seems to bring as a non American born phenom who was treated just like everyone else in the Liga. He’s grounded by his family and experiences in a way that you don’t see in many NBA youngsters who’ve been told they’re the greatest thing since sliced-bread since Middle School. I get a Tim Duncan type vibe from KP in that way where he’s fine to be great in an unassuming way at a place where he can settle down roots. His entire family lives with him in upstate NY, I don’t see him moving them to the latest place that offers him a deal so easily. And to Phil’s credit they’ve built around this bringing a BF like Willy for him to grow in NYC with.

    His entire family lives with him in upstate NY, I don’t see him moving them to the latest place that offers him a deal so easily.

    Did not know that.

    Tim Duncan won a title at age 22 and 37. its possible to have a nice present and future

    Again, consider the differences in team contexts. Tim Duncan had the crazy luck of stepping into a situation where the team he was drafted in should have been a 50+ win team had it not been for losing one of the most dominant big men of its time. And throughout his career the Spurs were perennial playoff/championship contenders. We don’t have that kind of talent surrounding KP right now. I wish we did, but we don’t.

    I’m trying to rack my brain and figure out what team might be interested in Noah but I’m drawing a blank.

    Golden State should want an interior defender who can pass the ball. They’ve become very soft in the middle since Bogut left.

    And throughout his career the Spurs were perennial playoff/championship contenders. We don’t have that kind of talent surrounding KP right now. I wish we did, but we don’t.

    Yeah its his second year. Hes 21, we don’t know what roster he will have. Hence you don’t get rid of the best other player on the team.

    Golden State should want an interior defender who can pass the ball. They’ve become very soft in the middle since Bogut left.

    They don’t have salaries that match well though. Any trade with them would have to revolve around Iguodala, whose contract expires this year. Maybe Iguodala and some spare parts could work? I can’t try it in the trade machine because Noah is not eligible to be traded yet.

    Yeah its his second year. Hes 21, we don’t know what roster he will have. Hence you don’t get rid of the best other player on the team.

    But we know what team he joined – a bad one with few assets. That’s where we’re building from.

    “Without Melo, it would be much more difficult for me to get those 30 points, or 28. People don’t realize that. But that’s how it is. He draws a lot of attention, and he’s the main focus for the other team. That opens up stuff for me. So without him, it would be much more difficult.

    “I’m happy to have him and D-Rose and guys who are really aggressive driving to the basket, who draw so much attention for me to be able to get those wide-open looks and then attack. It’s good sometimes that we have that. Without them, it would be much more difficult.”

    Really too bad KP doesn’t recognize what terrible teammates this dumpster fire of a franchise has saddled him with. I hear he’s going to take the QO and then leave to join President Hillary Rodham Clinton’s cabinet as Secretary of the Interior.

    Really too bad KP doesn’t recognize what terrible teammates this dumpster fire of a franchise has saddled him with.

    I mean, what’s he gonna say though? He’s not gonna say anything that is not complimentary of his teammates. “Man, I could have so much better stats if I had a good point guard passing me the ball.” He ain’t gonna say that.

    We won a game against a good team yesterday so we have to talk about anything else but.

    Jerian Grant had one point and 2 assists last night and was a minus 16 in a game the Bulls won by 8.

    I mean, what’s he gonna say though?

    How about nothing, since the question wasn’t even about Derrick Rose? Or even some generic non-answer like “Derrick Rose is a great teammate and competitor, etc.” would suffice if he actually didn’t have anything nice to say. Only on KB would an unsolicited compliment of Rose’s ability to break down defenses to create easier looks for his teammates get waved off because like, there’s no possible way he could mean that and hasn’t he looked up Derrick Rose on basketball reference recently??

    I don’t doubt KP is happy to have a core veteran guys to get him the ball and take the pressure off his shoulders while he matures into an NBA star. But this isn’t about where the team is, its about where the team is going to be down the road. We’re starting from a point where our starting roster is comprised of A.) aging and/or injury prone NBA stars and B.) one future superstar. Each of these two types of things are not like the other. That’s a problem.

    We won a game against a good team yesterday so we have to talk about anything else but.

    Wake up my optimism when we reach .500.

    I don’t doubt KP is happy to have a core veteran guys to get him the ball and take the pressure off his shoulders while he matures into an NBA star. But this isn’t about where the team is, its about where the team is going to be down the road. We’re starting from a point where the team isn’t only lacking in depth and talent at key positions with a starting roster full of aging and/or injury prone NBA stars and one future superstar. One of these things are not like the other.

    The Knicks have two young building blocks (one of whom appears to be a generational talent), an easy path to max cap space coming up next summer, every first round draft pick from here to forever and a core group of veterans who are both still productive (Melo does not seem to have declined at all, Lee is fine) or declining but still effective and admired (Noah, whose mentorship Hernangomez raves about).

    I swear, that Garbage song “I’m only happy when it rains” should auto-play when you visit this website.

    The Knicks have two young building blocks (one of whom appears to be a generational talent)

    Who is the other building block?

    His entire family lives with him in upstate NY, I don’t see him moving them to the latest place that offers him a deal so easily.

    They said the same thing about Dragic. There were 3 or 4 generations of Dragic’s living in the Phoenix area at the time. The talk was that he and his family were rooted there.

    Here’s what we know right now: 35+yos Noah and Lee will be on the books for 35m in KP’s first year on a new contract. Phil this summer will probably pay some oldster like George Hill a rich 4-year deal to play the 1. Dolan will likely give Melo a 3-year extension in his final year. If you’re KP, are you really liking this in 3 years?

    @ 104 – you know everything don’t you?

    Not for nothing but Melo in his prime won 54 games with a bunch of old dudes. Difference between us then and now and is that in your scenario that you just mentioned we’d have these old dudes PLUS our draft picks, Willie H, etc.

    Phil this summer will probably pay some oldster like George Hill a rich 4-year deal to play the 1. Dolan will likely give Melo a 3-year extension in his final year. If you’re KP, are you really liking this in 3 years?

    For someone who can apparently foresee disasters years before they happen, it’s pretty lame of you not to warn us about Trump.

    The Knicks have two young building blocks (one of whom appears to be a generational talent), an easy path to max cap space coming up next summer, every first round draft pick from here to forever and a core group of veterans who are both still productive (Melo does not seem to have declined at all, Lee is fine) or declining but still effective and admired (Noah, whose mentorship Hernangomez raves about).

    You can say this a hundred times and it won’t matter. Unless you’re in the conference finals, you should tank like Philly or else you are dooming your franchise forever. KP is gonna leave. Melo’s gonna get resigned and then immediately blow out his knee. Rose is getting the mega max and will also blow out his knee. Noah won’t be amnestied and will be an albatross like STAT. Lee can’t be traded. We can never lure a big time free agent even with cap space, NY, a good coach, KP and Melo. All of our draft picks will not be good players because they aren’t top 5 lottery picks, which are always guaranteed to be great players, don’t you know?

    Phil is forcing the triangle on us and hates 3 pointers! Dolan is secretly still pulling all the strings. Isiah is the puppet master. Every rumor you hear from an unnamed NBA source about the Knicks that is negative is ALWAYS true.

    I keep refreshing my screen, because this must be the thread after we got blown out by the Wiz.

    Billy or does he not count?

    Billy looks like a good rotational piece/supplementary starter. Definitely a guy who is part of the equation. But its just one of many holes to fill. You can look at places like Milwaukee with Giannis, New Orleans with Davis, Sacramento with Cousins, etc. as places where there is a young superstar that is mired in mediocrity. Hell, everyone thought Minnesota was going to contend this season fielding a young talented team with Wiggins, Town, Rubio, Dunn, etc. and Thibedou as the head coach but its not happening. It takes a lot of the right pieces coming together and a lot of assets to make it happen.

    You can say this a hundred times and it won’t matter. Unless you’re in the conference finals, you should tank like Philly or else you are dooming your franchise forever. KP is gonna leave. Melo’s gonna get resigned and then immediately blow out his knee. Rose is getting the mega max and will also blow out his knee. Noah won’t be amnestied and will be an albatross like STAT. Lee can’t be traded. We can never lure a big time free agent even with cap space, NY, a good coach, KP and Melo. All of our draft picks will not be good players because they aren’t top 5 lottery picks, which are always guaranteed to be great players, don’t you know?

    I…see…strawmen….

    Damn man, you got it all figured out.

    Y’all are like junkies in a burnt out crack house seeking a temporary high. I’m the drug counselor here to help. You don’t want this to be your future …Knick announcer in 4 years on opening night introducing the starting lineups:

    Ladies and Gentlemen, your starting center JOakeeeeeem Nooooooah (35+yo)! Now let’s hear it for Geooooorge Hill (34+yo)! And give it up for his back court mate Courtneeeeeeey Lee (35+yo)! And rock the house for our hometown boy Melooooo (35+yo!). And to round out the starting 5, a big welcome to ????????.

    They said the same thing about Dragic. There were 3 or 4 generations of Dragic’s living in the Phoenix area at the time. The talk was that he and his family were rooted there.

    Dragic was traded twice from Phoenix by the Suns front office. He didn’t leave the Suns, the Suns left him bruh.

    In other Knicks related news, former five time all star Steve Francis was stopped on a DUI and arrested for intoxication as well as threatening an officer.

    Notes

    Carmelo Anthony
    Usage is at a career low 28.9 % while his efficiency is at a career high .575 TS/9.4 TO%, 1.15 PPP. (What a shocker)
    How does that break down?
    31.5 % of Melo’s fga are 3-pointers, a career high. 84 % of his three point looks are assisted, the most since 2010-11, when he made 38 % of his threes.
    Melo is shooting right at his career average from 3, but the quality of his looks has improved dramatically, so there’s reason to believe that will go up.
    Even at his career 3pt average of 34.4 %, Melo’s efg% on those shots is about 51.5.
    His catch and shoot opportunities have risen about a shot per game from last season, from 4.4 to 5.1, and 2.5 to 3.8 spot-ups 3s per game.
    Melo’s efg% on catch and shoot: 61.4
    Previous efg% on catch and shoot: 52.1, 54.1, 58.1
    Melo’s isolation percentage is down slightly, but he remains one of the best isolations in basketball, averaging 1.07 PPP (81.4 percentile).
    By my eye, teams are doubling him quite a bit less, and it seems the rate of his clean isolation jumpers has rise. He’s shooting a Dirk like 51.6% from 10-16 feet, and a remarkable 54 % from 16 to 23 feet.

    His drive rate is down, his ftr rate is down and his percent of shots at the basket are down (though he’s shooting a healthy 60% at the rim), and he’s had to dip into his bully and drive ball much with how much space he’s been getting on jumpers.

    What can help explain Melo’s quality of shot improvement?

    Well, Rose and Jennings are combining for about 14 drives per game, which is only surpassed by a few two man pg/wing combos : Boston, Cleveland, Denver, Houston, Indy, OKC, PHX, Portland, Toronto and Washington. Knicks rank 11th in top 2-man drive combos.

    Last year, Jose Calderon averaged a putrid 2.2 drives per game, Grant 3.5 and Galloway 1.3

    Dragic was traded twice from Phoenix by the Suns front office. He didn’t leave the Suns, the Suns left him bruh.

    Dragic asked to be traded

    If we have to max someone out this offseason, you could do wayyyy worse than George Hill. He’s currently a top 10-15 player in the league and his game looks like it would age pretty well.

    I’d be pretty happy with him if we whiffed on Paul and refused to trade our old guys like we should.

    Dragic asked to be traded

    Twice? And I don’t blame Dragic for the second trade – Phoenix basically brought him in to be part of a rotation after he made the 3rd NBA team right before he was in line to cash in as a FA.

    Dragic was traded twice from Phoenix by the Suns front office. He didn’t leave the Suns, the Suns left him bruh.

    Dragic publicly requested Phoenix to trade him.

    Similar things are happening with KP. Catch-and-shoot opportunities are up, spot-ups are up, assisted atttempts are up, and percentage of shots at the rim are up.

    The Knicks are averaging 3 points more per 100 possessions than last year’s team. They are shooting a higher percentage of 3s, a higher percentage of shots at the basket, and are averaging a higher assist rate.

    They are doing that with two guards shooting under 50 TS%.

    I think I loved the way Melo is playing right now.
    He’s got a PG who can penetrate, starting and at back up.
    He’s got a PF/C who can create his own shot and shoot well from anywhere on the floor.
    KP likely will be the best player outside of the Olympics Melo’s ever played with.
    He’s also playing a lot more against 3s, where he has a distinct advantage shooting over them or when the defense has collapsed on a penetrator.
    His jumper is smooth, as good as I’ve ever seen it.
    I love that his usage is down…and no surprise his efficiency is up.
    Wait to see what happens when the balance shifts and KP is drawing the double.

    I wouldn’t touch a thing right now. I’d just keep working the defense to create better cohesion.
    This was an excellent win. They need to carry their intensity to the road.
    Nice to see Lee rebound with a good game. He was worrying.
    I know Jennings is an inefficient gunner at times, but there is something I like about him on this team.

    Jennings is a shooting a career low from 3, and Rose is shooting well below career average on jumpers, despite shooting above his career average at the rim while averaging a career high in percentage of fg attempts at the rim.

    Dragic publicly requested Phoenix to trade him.

    Because they fucked with his money by loading their team with guards who cut into his time as he was about to become a FA. It was like rebuilding a team without him in mind.

    ruruland
    November 21, 2016 at 3:11 pm
    Similar things are happening with KP. Catch-and-shoot opportunities are up, spot-ups are up, assisted atttempts are up, and percentage of shots at the rim are up.

    The Knicks are averaging 3 points more per 100 possessions than last year’s team. They are shooting a higher percentage of 3s, a higher percentage of shots at the basket, and are averaging a higher assist rate.

    They are doing that with two guards shooting under 50 TS%.

    I think Rose and Jennings will need to improve their finishes for this to continue.
    Getting there is important, but if they can’t finish, teams will collapse less. No?

    Rose is once again in the top 15 in secondary assists, averaging 1.5 per game. That’s 3.25-3.5 points a game not getting captured by any conventional box score.

    The Knicks are + 12.8 rating points better on offense with Rose on the floor, the third highest on-court ORTG on the team.

    He is creating a lot of havoc. Offensive rebounds are up 3.2 per 100 possessions with him on the floor, despite assist percentage dipping.

    Last year, the Knicks averaged 106.9 points per 100 possessions with Calderon on the floor.

    So far, the Knicks are playing much better on offense with Rose.

    “I think Rose and Jennings will need to improve their finishes for this to continue.
    Getting there is important, but if they can’t finish, teams will collapse less. No?”

    I think they’ll need both to finish better. Rose seems so close to getting hot. As Noah said early last week, he’s moving as well on a consistent basis as he’s had post-ACL.

    So many of his shots roll around the rim. His mechanics are really tight on his jumper, just a touch more arc and he’s there.

    I know this board scoffs at the idea of confidence being an actual thing, but I think if Rose gets a really big game going he’s going to roll for awhile, and eventually that should lead to some whistles.

    He’s incredibly explosive with a great handle and is still a very good leaper (compare him to Ish Smith who is a great driver but has no chance around the rim).

    I still think a Renaissance is possible. He’s doing things now he hasn’t done on a consistent basis since his injury.

    Re: Melo – on shots between 16 feet and the 3 point line, he is currently at .542. That is not sustainable, historically he’s been around .450 or less on those shots.

    Now that doesn’t mean he can’t have a great season, but he’s going to have to cut down on those long 2’s at some point.

    Rose is low key a versatile defender. His size makes him able to switch onto 2’s and even some 3’s without it being an easy isolation bucket for the opposition team. I think we’ll see more Rose/Jennings lineups moving forward.

    I also feel like some of Jennings’ struggles from the field, relative to his career averages, is that he’s often eschewing good opportunities for him to attack the rim or pull-up for jumpers to try and set somebody else up. I appreciate his willingness and desire to make plays for others, but there are instances where it’s a detriment and we need him to look to score instead.

    “Re: Melo – on shots between 16 feet and the 3 point line, he is currently at .542. That is not sustainable, historically he’s been around .450 or less on those shots.

    Now that doesn’t mean he can’t have a great season, but he’s going to have to cut down on those long 2’s at some point.”

    Agreed. But I think he’s getting cleaner looks in the mid-range because teams are afraid to double him.

    @ 126. I don’t have a gripe with Rose. Is it possible that the increased offensive rebounding rating is from him shooting and missing, thereby creating more opportunities?

    Agreed. But I think he’s getting cleaner looks in the mid-range because teams are afraid to double him.

    Seems like the Knicks are getting him and KP isolated after generating a switch and mismatch quite often. Yesterday they didn’t even need to with Bazemore guarding Melo. He looked like a HS freshman against a senior. No chance.

    rose is performing just as he did last season… occasionally he would have a vintage rose type of game but on the whole he was vastly damaging to the offense…. it’s more of the same this year because he simply just uses way too many possessions….

    we’re 13 games in… there’s going to be a point in time where you kind of have to bury any hope of a rose resurrection… and i would argue that point was after last year….

    Hell, everyone thought Minnesota was going to contend this season fielding a young talented team with Wiggins, Town, Rubio, Dunn, etc. and Thibedou as the head coach but its not happening.

    First of all, who is everyone? Speak for yourself.

    Second of all, contend for what? The playoffs, maybe?

    Third, they are 10th in SRS and have an expected W-L of 7-5. They have lost a lot of close games and are probably better than their current record. 12 games into the season is way too early for “it’s not happening” (Though I guess this is Knickerblogger after all).

    rose is performing just as he did last season… occasionally he would have a vintage rose type of game but on the whole he was vastly damaging to the offense…. it’s more of the same this year because he simply just uses way too many possessions….

    Funny you should say that…

    The Knicks are + 12.8 rating points better on offense with Rose on the floor, the third highest on-court ORTG on the team.

    Amazing how our offense has gone from 24th in the league to 13th (growing pains and all) despite replacing the hyper efficient tandem of Calderon and Lopez with the “can’t throw it in the ocean” bros Rose and Noah. Almost as amazing as the Rose haters who claim against all evidence that he is hurting the offense.

    Willy is both tough and funny:

    Stefan Bondy: Willy Hernangomez on Dwight Howard’s cheap shot: “They told me about that but I didn’t feel nothing. Maybe he felt pain in his elbow.”

    First of all, who is everyone? Second of all, contend for what? The playoffs, maybe?

    CBS, FiveThirtyEight, ESPN Magazine, USA Today. So many pundits had predicted they’d take a major leap under Thibedeau to the playoffs.

    Third, they are 10th in SRS and have an expected W-L of 7-5. They have lost a lot of close games and are probably better than their current record. 12 games into the season is way too early for “it’s not happening”

    Using SRS rating this early huh? You ever think the reason they aren’t outperforming their differentials adjusted for schedule is because they are young and don’t have a clue how to win together? Which runs exactly to my point about how complicated rebuilds are…

    Hi, the point is that nobody thought the Wolves would be a contender, just that they would contend for the playoffs, which is absolutely still a possibility considering they’re a young team still learning to close out tight games, and we’re only 12 games into the season. Unless we’re sticking a fork in every team that’s a few games under .500 after, what, the first 15% of the season?

    I’m sorry to break it to you, but you suffer from a case of premature evaluation. I know it’s embarrassing, but you’re not alone–indeed, this blog is practically a support group for it.

    The Wolves main problem is that they forget how to play basketball in the 3rd quarter.

    I go back and forth on this team every day… but if we can finish above .500 without getting good play from Rose I think that’s pretty good evidence we should keep the team together and try to improve incrementally.

    I loved how Hornacek went after Dwight after his cheap shot on WillyBilly. Now that’s a coach!

    Hi, the point is that nobody thought the Wolves would be a contender, just that they would contend for the playoffs,

    If you’re in the playoffs you’re a contender. That’s how the postseason works.

    which is absolutely still a possibility considering they’re a young team still learning to close out tight games, and we’re only 12 games into the season. Unless we’re sticking a fork in every team that’s a few games under .500 after, what, the first 15% of the season?

    I am simply saying that its not uncommon for a talented yet rebuilding team to underpeform. Minnesota, right now, is as good an example as you’ll find in the NBA of that problem.

    I’m sorry to break it to you, but you suffer from a case of premature evaluation. I know it’s embarrassing, but you’re not alone–indeed, this blog is practically a support group for it.

    Haha. Speaking of which, this Knicks team really sucks when you look at the differentials. I’ve ignored them but couldn’t help looking. The only thing we’ve done well in the top 10 is shoot the ball. Tear it down!

    Plumlee got called in at the last second after Noah’s illness and literally ran through the streets to get there in time. This team has so much excitement and character associated with it.

    He said that he paid a cabbie $60 to run a red light too!

    @145 but that means he’s an accessory to a misdemeanor! I thought Phil was changing the culture!

    I’m sure most of our improvement on offense has to do with Derrick Roses .496 TS and 25% usage rather than our two best players who take 14-16 shots a game each having career years on scoring efficiency

    Do you not think Rose’s penetration is one of the causes of those scoring efficiency upticks?

    @146
    It’s part of the Trump era. The ends justify the means!
    🙂

    @147
    I’m no Rose fan, but I think at least part of the improvement in the offense is Rose and Jennings getting KP and Melo better/easier looks and scoring chances, regardless of their TS and whatnot.

    I wonder how KP’s first year efficiency would have been if he an actual penetrating PG to get him wide open looks.

    So, I’m hearing this stuff about Thibs losing patience and wanting to win now and trade for one of “his guys.”

    So, Derrick Rose to the Wolves for a package that includes Ricky Rubio and salary filler. Who says no?

    🙂

    Sure, if the Wolves want to give us Rubio and cap filler for Rose, I’m down, but I don’t think Thibs is that stupid.

    Do you not think Rose’s penetration is one of the causes of those scoring efficiency upticks?

    If a rhetorical question:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

    If an actual question:

    No, it’s not Rose’s doing. Carmelo has an eFG% of .580 when Rose is off the floor. Porzingis is at .505, which is still much higher than last year.

    Noah and Rose for Towns and Rubio. Easy win-win. They get “veteran leadership” and we get “young upside.”

    Noah and Rose for Towns and Rubio. Easy win-win. They get “veteran leadership” and we get “young upside.”

    A former DPOY and a former MVP for a Rookie of the Year and some Euro PG? No way, man!

    I bet Dunn is on the chopping block

    Jennings is better than Rose and is also an expiring so we should be looking to make a move at the trade deadline. That being said I don’t think Thibs is that dumb.

    rose has an ast/to ratio of 1.5 with a ts under .500…. there’s a much better case that the knicks are doing ‘ok’ on offense in spite of him instead of because of him…. melo and kp are generating a ton of fairly efficient offense by themselves… it’s just that everyone else is dragging it down and the leader in usg behind them is rose…

    We’re shooting a bit better than we were last season and doing a much better job on the offensive glass. We still don’t get to the line very often. Rose’s driving probably does help with the ORBs, but he doesn’t pass that often on his drives, so I’m not sure it’s Rose’s going to the hoop that is leading to better shots for Porzingis & Melo.

    Rose’s driving probably does help with the ORBs, but he doesn’t pass that often on his drives, so I’m not sure it’s Rose’s going to the hoop that is leading to better shots for Porzingis & Melo.

    Since Carmelo’s eFG% is higher when Rose is off the floor, I’m going to guess that Rose does not produce a significant effect. I’m not crediting him with making Carmelo’s shooting worse when he’s on the floor, but there’s certainly no evidence that he’s making it better.

    No, it’s not Rose’s doing. Carmelo has an eFG% of .580 when Rose is off the floor. Porzingis is at .505, which is still much higher than last year.

    What a silly argument. Of course he’s also getting wide open shots from jennings penetration which is far beyond what we had last year.

    Since the start of the regular season

    Melo w/ Rose on and Jennings off: 53.6 eFG%, 57.6 TS%, 27.6 USG%, 318 minutes

    Melo w/ Jennings on and Rose off: 50.0 eFG%, 52.4 TS%, 42.9 USG%, 42 minutes

    Melo w/ Rose and Jennings on: 51.7 eFG%, 56.1 TS%, 30.1 USG%, 48 minutes

    He hasn’t played a minute without either of them on the floor, in fact nobody on the team has, you know because Sasha is our 3rd PG.

    Fwiw in the puny 48 minute sample size with Jennings, Rose and Melo on the floor

    Jennings: 65.8 eFG%, 64.1 TS%, 18.6 USG%

    Rose: 50.0 eFG%, 57.8 TS%, 25.3 USG%,

    Anyone who says rose and Jennings aren’t creating more open looks for melo/KP bc of their penetration is clearly not watching the games and shouldn’t be taken seriously, stats be damned.

    Anyone who says rose and Jennings aren’t creating more open looks for melo/KP bc of their penetration is clearly not watching the games and shouldn’t be taken seriously, stats be damned.

    Joe Fuckin’ Morgan over here

    on/off figures are going to have sample size issues…. and even with a large enough sample they are loads of other variables to make those numbers inconclusive…. we’re probably shooting better simply because KP ratcheted up his efficiency and we’re playing koq more and added wily… all of those things probably happens with or without rose….

    I think Rose and Jennings will need to improve their finishes for this to continue.
    Getting there is important, but if they can’t finish, teams will collapse less. No?

    No, because even a scrappy rate of success for shots taken right at the rim is better than a good rate of success for a mid range two-pointer. So teams have to defend at the rim, and this won’t change.

    all of those things probably happens with or without rose

    Would it happen with Calderon?

    It’s hard to suss out just how much our improved penetration contributes to the uptick in Melo and KP’s efficiency. Even if Rose has a noticeable positive effect on their shooting it’s still an open question whether that outweighs his putrid TS% and AST:TO ratio on the team’s second highest usage rate

    I think the answer strongly weighs toward the “no” side of that one

    Per that reddit thread Kristaps is shooting wide open shots 3% more frequently than last year. He’s taken 200 shots. I’m not sure if that stat is for all shot types, but let’s assume it is. That means so far Kristaps has taken about 5 more open shots this year. Assuming that’s not noise and that all the additional open shots are caused by Rose’s ability to penetrate a defense, we’re still talking 5 shots. Do we also blame Rose for making Courntey Lee shoot worse?

    @168 – i would say yes… i mean cherrypicking numbers.. esp on/off or situational shooting numbers… is going to lead to misleading conclusions… yes melo is shooting better but he’s also shooting in isolation more for instance…

    that is why i tend to favor the conventional advanced stats… they tend to be more meaningful in smaller samples and you can tell how much of it is small sample volatility… and they are all pointing to rose being very very bad…

    I don’t think we can really tell much about this team yet. Our record is about what it should be on paper. Some guys are right where they were expected to be (Melo, KP, Rose), some are worse (Lance, Lee, maybe Noah) some are better (Oaq, Willy, Holiday). There is a significant disparity in home vs. road play. Their defense is lousy overall but showing signs, especially at home. The offense is looking erratic but more modern. They just beat a team they should have lost to and lost to a team they should have beaten. Hornacek is still experimenting.

    The East 5 stronger teams and then lots of teams like us. The Celtics, Pacers, Knicks, Magic, Pistons, and Bucks are all within 1.5 games of each other. All of these teams are one significant injury away from the lottery. The Celts are probably better than the rest and might go on a run now that Horford is back. The Magic seem to be pulling it together after a slow start. Bucks seem to be falling back after a good start. Pacers are banged up. Pistons? Who knows?

    These next 10 games are weird. we play 2 home and homes (Hornets, T-Wolves) and also play the Kings twice. If we go 6-4 or even 7-3 during this stretch, that would be a good sign going forward. OTOH, 4-6 or 3-7 would not feel great.

    KP’s had 194 FGAs so far, so that’s 5 or 6 more open shots, depending on which way they’re rounding.

    Our shot distribution looks a little better this year, less mid-range and long 2’s. Also our spacing seems better. Seems like less possessions result in guys looking confused about where they are supposed to be/what they’re supposed to do and WAY less possessions where we’re getting in each other’s way, clogging up stuff. The first helps with efficiency, the second with getting open/better looks and both of those are down to Hornacek. The biggest reason we’re more efficient is Melo and KP shooting the lights out (relative to last year) but if you want a secondary reason it’s the coaching.

    That’s right Jowles! I love stats when evaluating talent to draft or sign in free agency and In the context of the eye test. But when I watch a game and see rose drive to the hoop, the defense collapse and he kicks it out to someone who hits a wide open shot…well im gonna go with the eye test on that one! Calderon NEVER did that last year. It took us 10 to 15 seconds to even bring the ball up the court and get our offense set up. He was good for throwing an entry pass and hitting an open jumper and by or. I mean at least 3 seconds of being open. He sucked. On defense too Rose is an improvement. Its not even a real debate unless you only look at the stats. Rose (and Jennings) have helped speed up the offense and have helped break down the defense and have gotten better looks for their teammates. Sure Hornacecks offense is also a reason for this but I doubt Jose could play in this offense unless he was an SG off the bench hitting corner open 3s. Calderon SUCKS.

    Comments are closed.