Knicks Morning News (2016.11.19)

  • [NYPost] Phil Jackson pal rips LeBron for ‘posse’ gripe: ‘Such bulls- -t
    (Friday, November 18, 2016 9:02:29 PM)

    Charley Rosen, Phil Jackson’s longtime confidant, is in an uproar over LeBron James’ statment he has lost respect for the Zen Master. Rosen said Jackson deserves the benefit of the doubt and is shocked James became so enraged about him using “posse’’ to describe the Cavaliers star’s management team. Rosen said political correctness has gone…

  • [NYPost] Derrick Rose won’t be bullied into selling his Trump property
    (Friday, November 18, 2016 11:18:28 AM)

    While some NBA teams will boycott staying at Trump hotels in Chicago and New York, Knicks point guard Derrick Rose is unfazed. Rose told The Post he will not sell his Trump condominium in downtown Chicago. In 2012, Rose purchased a $2.8 million, three-bedroom, four-bath condo on the 84th floor of Trump International Hotel and…

  • [NYPost] Courtney Lee’s struggles forcing Knicks into point-guard experiment
    (Friday, November 18, 2016 7:23:51 AM)

    Knicks coach Jeff Hornacek could face another starting-lineup issue down the road. Will there be a time to go all in on a two-point-guard backcourt of Derrick Rose and Brandon Jennings that spearheaded the Knicks’ dizzying 47-point fourth quarter — the team’s most in a single quarter since 1988 — in Washington? Could the stunning…

  • [NYDN] Knicks small lineup clicks, but Jeff Hornacek not sold on it
    (Friday, November 18, 2016 7:11:37 PM)

    The consensus from scouts is that the Knicks will be at their best with the small lineup.

  • [ESPN] Porzingis to donate $500 per block to area hoops
    (Friday, November 18, 2016 9:39:18 AM)

    Porzingis to donate $500 per block to area hoops

  • [NYTimes] On Pro Basketball: Russell Westbrook, Honorary Son of Oklahoma, Calls for Unity
    (Saturday, November 19, 2016 3:57:16 AM)

    A black player in a red state tells a well-heeled crowd, “I can be better, you can be better, and we can be better together.”

  • [SNY Knicks] Brandon Jennings ripped Knicks’ effort after loss to Wizards
    (Friday, November 18, 2016 1:55:50 PM)

    Knicks PG Brandon Jennings ripped the team’s effort after Thursday night’s loss to the Wizards.

  • [SNY Knicks] Why Knicks should consider switching Rose and Jennings
    (Friday, November 18, 2016 8:28:25 AM)

    With Derrick Rose’s explosiveness and Brandon Jennings’ ability to spread the ball, the New York Knicks should consider switching their roles a bit.

  • 89 replies on “Knicks Morning News (2016.11.19)”

    @JK86 from yesterday

    Fultz and Ball are really looking like they’re going to be top 3 picks. The Knicks would have to tank super hard or get some serious help from the ping pong ball gods to score one of those guys.

    There are about a half dozen top prospects out there at point guard. has Dennis Smith, recovering from knee surgery, going #1 overall. Frank Ntilikina and De’Aaron Fox are all in the mix there. Add Edmond Sumner in there as a reach. There’s a good chance, if we don’t get really good, really soon, that we are in position to snag a franchise point guard in the draft. And we can also move up. Except for KP, who on this team wouldn’t you trade?

    Yeah, it’s never too early to muse about the draft when you’re a Knick fan and we had very few picks first round picks over the past few years. We have 1 first and 2 second rounders (if I’m not mistaken) this year. Just a quick run-through of current draft rankings of those 5 top point guards by web site:

    Draft Express: Fultz 1, D.Smith 2, Ntilikina 6, Fox 12, Ball 16 Ball 2, Fultz 3, D.Smith 4, Fox 6, Ntilikina 7
    hoopshype: D.Smith, Fultz 4, Ntilikina 5, Fox 8, Ball 9,
    Bleacher Report Fultz 1, Smith 2, Ntilikina 8, Fox 10, Ball 13

    If NBA front offices are on Phil Jackson’s special peyote tea all season and Lonzo Ball falls outside of the top 10 we need to be trading everything not named Porzingis to get our hands on that kid.

    I do think this is easily the best PG draft class ever. Fultz is like a more athletic Steph with less handle, Ball is like a 6’6″ Jason Kidd and Fox is like Wall. Dennis Smith is more of a scorer than a distributor, but he’s a baller for certain.

    We should be tanking right now.

    Hard to imagine us getting those guys unless we tank or someone gets injured. Some mid round guys like Fox and Malik Monk might be available if we want a PG. Monk is a score first PG so not sure if that’s the guys we want to pair KP with.

    Another guy with an intriguing skillset is Miles Bridges. He’s erratic as hell but has potential as a rebounder and passer at either forward position.

    If there are good players in the following year’s draft can we tank next year too? And the year after that?

    45 wins will be a lock for the playoffs. 40 wins means we’re borderline. 35 wins and we probably get a top-10 pick. It sucks to be mediocre. So, the decision to tank doesn’t need to come until late March. I also think that we’ll be able to trade a player and our #1 for a higher #1. There are a bunch of players that we have now that could help us there. It’s way too early to talk tank. We’re not the 76’ers (on their way to their 42nd overall #1 pick in a row).

    Before getting serious about tank talk, there should be trade talk.

    If the season turns sour, the Knicks do have a few guys that might be interesting to teams in the playoff chase. Rose would be tough, but if he can stay healthy some time might like to take a flyer on him, but matching the salaries would limit things. Jennings and/or LT (if he can ever get healthy) might be very interesting to some teams looking to add depth for the playoffs. I really think that Holiday and Kuz make LT very expendable.

    OQ might also be of interest. Willy’s development might make him very expendable, and he is playing well right now, enhancing his value.

    The Kings might be dumb enough to trade WCS plus something or the other for Rose + LT

    I’d have Melo come off the bench (until he agrees to a trade) and play the rookies around Porzingis. No need to tank – just play the young guys and see what happens. Most likely, wins in the 20’s, a good pick and Melo gone. Nothing lost, except the pretense that this ugly team can compete this season.

    Then, get a couple of young, solid players with Rose’s money and we’ll be closer to a proper rebuild. No need for ‘superstars’ until we have a solid core in place.

    Phil called the Conley deal almost insane. But what percentage of GMs would trade Conley’s 30m 5yr deal for the 35m 4yr package of Noah/Lee/Lance the Knicks signed this winter? None?

    Conley at 30M is insane, but paying 50M for Noah/Rose/Lee is just as bad and probably worse.

    Knicks would have done much better with Lopez and Rondo for 26M, both with short contracts and every bit as productive as Noah/Rose. 24M left for a couple of solid support players (no superstars, since this team needs far more than that before it can compete or justify a max salary player).

    Conleys deal is gonna be a problem on the back end and will end up being a mediocre to bad contract when it’s all said and done, but he’s playing some great ball this season, far better than any of our players.

    Think I’d rather have 29 year old Conley at 30M for 4 years after this one vs. 32 year old Melo at 25M for 2 more years. And yeah, Conley for 30M far outweighs Noah/Lee/Lance

    we’re on pace for 34-35 wins and i don’t see us getting much better than that…. if tanking includes trading rose or playing some of the young guys it’s quite possible we’ll end up with a better record…

    Think I’d rather have 29 year old Conley at 30M for 4 years after this one vs. 32 year old Melo at 25M for 2 more years.

    Really now.

    The point is that Conley will never at any point be worth the money he makes or be worth 1/3 of the salary cap.

    Where are all the guys who hated Melo’s max contract for the same reason?

    29 year old Mike Conley vs. 32 year old Melo–Conley wins in productivity this year and by default given his age curve.

    He’s posting career high numbers. If we’re refusing to tank, I’d rather have a younger, better player at the max sans an NTC.

    Of course I’d rather have neither but that counterfactual isn’t within the space of possibility.

    Wait, but switching them is within the realm of possibility?

    Conley is posting career high numbers through 11 games. He’s a very good player.

    Let’s see if he continues to shoot 48 % from three.

    The Knicks are not tanking. They may end up in the lottery, but that in no way guarantees they’ll improve over the long term.

    Have the Spurs, Warriors, Cavs, Clippers, Raptors, Bobcats, Jazz, Celtics, Hawks ever intentionally tank?

    No fucking way.

    Have the 76ers?

    Yes. Where are they right now? Exactly where they’ve been the last 4 years.

    Does Simmons get them closer to .500? Maybe. Is there any reason to believe they have the kind of championship upside that all of the championship caliber non-tanking teams have? No.

    The Knicks got their break by drafting KP. They have another very good player in Melo who should maintain a high level of play given his playing style.

    They have some other interesting young players and assets.

    If the Knicks aren’t improving in the next couple of months, there are teams on the cusp who will trade for Noah and or Lee, and a $20 mill expiring in Rose has some value, too.

    Get a fucking grip.

    Have the Spurs, Warriors, Cavs, Clippers, Raptors, Bobcats, Jazz, Celtics, Hawks ever intentionally tank?

    Is that a serious question? Almost all of those teams intentionally tanked at one point or another. The Celtics and Spurs were part of one of the most famous tanking seasons ever. The Cavs were rewarded with Lebron freakin’ James for their tanking.

    The last time the Knicks intentionally tanked, they got Patrick Ewing!!!

    None of those teams INTENTIONALLY TANKED.

    Did the Celtics trade Pierce in the Durant/Oden draft?

    There’s a big difference between “tanking” and “building around young cost-controlled assets.” The time for the Knicks to do the latter has long passed– they have the one great young piece but they have surrounded him with players who are only going to decline as Porzingis continues to mature.

    In 2018-2019, they’re going to have these contracts on the books:
    Carmelo Anthony, age 34: $27.9M
    Joakim Noah, age 33: $18.5M
    Courtney Lee, age 33: $12.2M
    Lance Thomas, age 30: $7.1M

    That is not a season I am looking forward to.

    Yes, the ’02 Cavs tanked. I’m talking about how the top teams in the league are currently constructed.

    Insufferable. All of those players, including Melo, can be traded do long as they continue to be productive.

    Yes, the ’02 Cavs tanked. I’m talking about how the top teams in the league are currently constructed.

    You do realize the Cavs are one of if not the top team in the league, right?


    Telling us how awesome we’re gonna be year after year and the team continuing to suck is what’s insufferable.

    Maybe this time we’ll really be awesome though! You’re due to be right about something!

    “You do realize the Cavs are one of if not the top team in the league, right?”

    And they needed to sign Lebron as a FA to win a championship.

    “Telling us how awesome we’re gonna be year after year and the team continuing to suck is what’s insufferable.

    Maybe this time we’ll really be awesome though! You’re due to be right about something!”

    I always wonder why those who consider themselves “realists” have to anchor their arguments to mis-characterizations and exaggerations of opposing viewpoints.

    Who was that other guy Cleveland has who is pretty good, Kylie something or other? How’d they get him? And then the other dude, Kevin Love, what did they use to trade for that guy?

    “Who was that other guy Cleveland has who is pretty good, Kylie something or other? How’d they get him? And then the other dude, Kevin Love, what did they use to trade for that guy?”

    So they intentionally tanked by offering Lebron a max salary?

    They got great assets for a few years because they stunk. It’s not that hard to figure out.

    “They got great assets for a few years because they stunk. It’s not that hard to figure out.”

    That’s not the point. Obviously that is true. But did they plan out a long-term strategy of tanking?

    I’ll tell you what the Cavs DIDN’T do when LeBron left: they didn’t fill their roster with whatever second-tier free agents were available and then go out and win a meaningless 35 games. They ran out a roster where JJ Hickson, Ramon Sessions, Anthony Parker and Boobie Gibson were the core of the team. They tanked. They won 19 games. It worked. They got the #1 overall pick in the draft, which they used on Kyrie Irving.

    Did they load up the boat with second-tier free agents the year after that? No. They tanked again. 35-year old Antawn Jamison led the team in minutes. Alonzo Gee was second on the team in minutes. This time they got the #4 pick, which they pissed away on Dion Waiters.

    How about the year after that? Sign some free agents, try to “win now” after a couple years of tanking? Nope. They had another tank-tastic season, got the #1 overall pick again, and once again wasted it, this time on Anthony Bennett.

    How about the year after that? Surely by now, they would have brought in some free agents in an attempt to stop the bleeding and win some games, no? Well, uh, no. They did bring in Luol Deng, that was their splashiest free agent move of the whole non-LeBron era. Once again, they stunk. They won 33 games and got the #1 pick AGAIN. This time they drafted Andrew Wiggins.

    But lo and behold, what do you know, as a result of all the tanking– accidental or not– they found themselves with a couple of good players and some assets that other teams wanted. They flipped Wiggins and Bennett for Kevin Love, signed LeBron and kept Kyrie. But I guess they would have been better off winning 38 games all of those years.

    The Cavs didn’t tank on purpose? They thought Alonzo Gee and Boobie Gibson were the core of a “win now” team? Of course they tanked on purpose.

    Here are the leaders in minutes on the 2011-2012 Cavs, year two after LeBron left: Antawn Jamison (age 35), Alonzo Gee, Kyrie Irving, Tristan Thompson, Omri Casspi, Anthony Parker, Ramon Sessions, Boobie Gibson, Samardo Samuels, Anderson Varejao. Those were the top ten guys in minutes.

    That looks a hell of a lot like an intentionally tanking team to me.

    Where would the Cavs be if LeBron was from Detroit and not Akron?

    Irving and Wiggins sounds fun, but Wiggins and Towns are currently struggling and Towns is the best player out of all three of those guys.

    Atlanta is another fun study. Bazemore, Korver, Millsap, Howard, and Thabo all came into the league through different teams. Schroeder was drafted 17th (so a playoff team drafted him).

    Boston’s best players were traded and FA signees.

    Washington’s top 3 players were drafted in the top 3 and they suck.

    The Knicks strategy is absolutely flawed and there’s no getting around that. But I’d rather be in our position than say Phoenix. We have Kristaps Porzingis and that’s such a win. Is KP a guarantee we’ll be great? Nah, but it’s a hell of a start. We have our draft picks going forward and that’s the most important part of the question. KP and our draft picks.

    The Kyrie Irving year? There’s no way they intentionally tanked. No advanced statistic anywhere could have predicted that LeBron was worth 40+ wins to that team. They retained the same team they had from the season before and it got bad. And it wasn’t their pick that landed them Kyrie Irving; the Clippers’ pick they retained in the Baron Davis trade is what turned into Kyrie Irving. They used their pick on Tristan Thompson that year.

    As a kid..I loved TMNT. wanna know why I love the current live-action version? THEY’RE KNICKS FANS!!

    Hahahahahaha sorry..I’ve been waiting months to finally have a real family night to watch Out Of The Shadows so my wife and daughters wouldn’t kick mine arse for watching it without one of them lol.

    Back to the movie..

    When you’re a bad, scraping-the-bottom-of-the-barrel type team, it’s not very smart to sign a bunch of aging free agents and/or trade for veterans with bloated contracts. That is what the post-LeBron Cavs avoided doing, and it’s what the Knicks ALWAYS do. And the Cavs were not even really run that well! They whiffed badly on some of the picks. They didn’t make any particularly creative moves. They just avoided giving out iffy contracts to second-tier free agents. And when the time came that LeBron was available, they had flexibility AND they had young assets from being so bad for a few years.

    Whether that counts as “intentional tanking,” I don’t know.

    i think we’re pretty close to being pretty good… besides kp i think wily might eventually be a solid starter in this league… maybe by the end of the season he could be deserving of a starting role…. he’s posted pretty decent numbers thus far… albeit in limited minutes…. but the only things keeping him back is that he can’t stop turning the ball over and his pnr defense kind of sucks.. those are fixable ….

    of course the LT and noah contracts are weighing us down… and the rose deal was a complete waste… but if we hit on the right pg in this draft or in FA then we’re almost there to competency… if KP really is something like a poor man’s dirk then it makes the team building a lot easier…

    KP makes things different this time. I may have been a “realist” for the last decade here but there is absolutely no question having him in the fold makes our situation different, even carrying the crappy contracts for Noah, Melo, and Lee. With him in the fold you can dream about lucking into a late lottery pick or striking gold in the second round. If we fish a Draymond out of the back end we would suddenly be in business.

    I think luck will definitely be required but KP is the kind of asset that forces you to be a little optimistic.

    Keeping Melo and trying to stay competitive while KP develops is not a shitty strategy we’re just executing it poorly

    Perhaps you guys should define “tanking” before arguing. I’m not sure that term is easy to define.

    I really think that Dolan told Phil that he’s getting fired unless the Knicks make the playoffs this year. Thus the Rose trade and Noah signings. I’ve not been a fan of them since they happened, but maybe they’ll have the desired effect. If not, there is KP, Willy, Kuz, Ron, and some draft picks this next year to give some hope. Maybe Rose will stay healthy and have some value to someone in a trade.

    As some have noted, the 4 year deals are pretty scary, but all of those guys could possibly be moved in deals. Surely LT and Lee could be moved in year 3 or so, even if just as a salary dump. Noah might be a bit harder to move.

    I don’t think fans understand how fortunate we’ve been with the Porzingis pick and how it changes the entire way this franchise should move forward. The Knicks took KP with the fourth pick. The five players taken at that spot in the 2010 to 15 drafts were: Wesley Johnson, Tristan Thompson, Dion Waiters, Cody Zeller and Aaron Gordon. A Top 5 pick should get you talent, but gives you only a small chance at a star. A lot went right for the Knicks the night of the 2015 draft, and the front office stumbled into a pick that redefined the future of a franchise starving for success. If you were to redraft the 24 players taken from the No. 2 to No. 5 picks in the draft between 2010 and 2015, Porzingis is probably a Top 3 pick, and maybe even No. 1, depending on how you feel about Joel Embiid’s feet and DeMarcus Cousins’ character.

    Franchises like the Sixers and Celtics plan for years in advance, trading assets and fielding subpar teams, for the chance to marginally increase the probability they will land a player in Kris. We did it by accident after a 2014-15 season where we traded two important rotation players—Iman Shumpert and J.R Smith—for very little, and lost Carmelo Anthony for half the season to injury. And even then we were lucky the Lakers and Sixers didn’t have the balls to take a chance on him and we landed in a spot where taking a risk on him paid off.

    Now that we lucked into the type of player who can be a cornerstone player we should how do everything to surround him with talent to develop with during his prime seasons.

    Why is the pick attributed to luck? The Knicks have a legit good track record in scouting the last few years finding unknown talent.

    You can criticize Phil and still give him(and Clarence Gaines) credit for the pick.

    All the credit I’ll give Phil for the Porzingis pick goes away because he didn’t order his dumbass coach to absolutely lose those last few games.

    Its luck because we landed in the perfect spot at the perfect time after failing more miserably than the front office planned in 2014-15. We were even lucky after getting a 4th pick when we had a worse record that a guy like KP was in the draft.

    i still think the kp pick was rather lucky… it was clear we coveted a top 3 pick and i think if we did we would have picked okafor…. that is speculative though…

    and if kp was 7ft instead of 7ft 3 then we’d be looking at a completely different player… his stats in europe weren’t exactly eye popping….

    The stats of 18 year olds playing against grown men in Europe are rarely eye popping.

    Joel Embiid somehow has three turnovers and three threes through 15 minutes

    We’re probably luckier because we have a buffoon like Dolan ruining any chance of properly rebuilding. It made our window for getting a talent of KP’s caliber even smaller.

    Only 45 minutes until Clash of the Titans 2 debuts in LA as superstar PG Chris Paul faces his toughest test of the season against Jerian Grant.

    GSW will still win the championship this year and they’re going to embarrass Cleveland in the Finals.

    I wouldn’t be so confident.

    they’re going to get obliterated on the boards. They better shoot lights out.

    Marshall Plumlee beasting tonight for Westchester. He will be an important player for the varsity team fairly soon. And Inglis, who we have under contract is a very interesting 6’11” 21 year old who started playing pro ball at age 16. The guy can really pass and shoot threes, among other things.

    The Clippers, like the Hawks, are a great regular season team. I love Chris Paul but the Clippers are too reliant on his excellence. Blake can ball but when the Clippers are down 2 who do they give the ball to?

    Blake can ball but when the Clippers are down 2 who do they give the ball to?

    Melo, after we trade him to LA for Griffin.

    They give it to Chris Paul, he’s one of the best point guards of all time.

    Stupid Bulls going with Rondo tonight

    GSW may be a case study in diminishing returns

    Durant’s got a .671 TS% and Curry’s at .661, excluding tonight’s game.

    Klay is 12th in WS48 and once he figures out how to make a corner three even close to his career average (.370 vs. .458) they’re going to trounce teams even worse than they have over the last nine games. I mean, shit, Klay is taking a career high in corner 3PA% and every one of them has been assisted. There’s some early-season sample-size shit going on with him, or he’s injured, or he switched from sativa to indica and needs to consider switching back.

    They’re 11-2. We’re not talking about the ’15-’16 Knicks here. It’s a real-deal superstar team. As ruruland said, it’s unlikely that they go for 74 wins, but there are going to be times this season that they win ten in a row with barely a scare.

    Klay and Steph have been pretty awful on D this year, too. Steph is stealing the ball 1.9 times per possession instead of the 3.0 he posted the previous two years and Klay’s doing it half as much as he did in 2014-15. Pretty serious dropoff. DBPM (whatever the fuck that is) has them rated very poorly.

    Having Javale McGee as your backup center doesn’t help either, but I suspect that they’ll improve, despite losing Bogut, who is a legit All-NBA defender and has been for a long time.

    They’ll have the best offense in NBA history. I think they’ll finish with the best point differential in NBA history.

    I don’t think they’re the best team in NBA history. And they’re so reliant on shot making, they’re more likely to lose a playoff series than another high 60s, 70 win team.

    I don’t think they’ll win 70 this year.


    This is why you should be my assistant. We lead with, “How about Carmelo for Steph? He’s got three times the All-Star selections, and is therefore three times the player,” at which point you’d lean in and whisper (professionally) in my ear, and I’d lean forward in my chair and say, “Mr. Kerr, I’m afraid I don’t have the support of the franchise on the deal that I just offered you,” after which I’d offer Noah for Draymond and a future first (lottery protected, of course) and they’d accept before I even finished the sentence.

    You were on the right track, but not quite there yet.

    They’re near lost in DRB % and that won’t change.

    Griffin and Jordan will eat them alive. They’ll need to make 20 3s to win. They have a solid chance of doing it. But sphincters tighten when you always have to make shots

    gsw is going to have problems in the playoffs if their defense is really this bad… their offense is really good but most great offenses run up the score against some bad teams…. curry himself has shot worse in the playoffs the last couple of years after a bonkers reg season… durant as well in okc….

    they might still win the championship but they are not just going to roll through everyone in the playoffs…

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