Knicks Morning News (2016.10.26)

  • [NYDN] Derrick Rose and Knicks look far from ‘Super Team’
    (Tuesday, October 25, 2016 9:30:43 PM)

    This city finally got to raise a championship banner on Tuesday, a ceremony that was 52 years in the making.

  • [NYDN] Knicks crushed by Cavaliers as LeBron James records triple-double
    (Tuesday, October 25, 2016 9:29:02 PM)

    LeBron James and Kyrie Irving put the hurt in the Knicks’ growing pains.

  • [NYDN] Knicks, Cavaliers do not make statement during national anthem
    (Tuesday, October 25, 2016 7:48:58 PM)

    The Knicks and Cavs mostly stood in a standard line before Tuesday night’s season opener.

  • [NYDN] LeBron James says some Cavaliers had chips on shoulder
    (Tuesday, October 25, 2016 7:36:28 PM)

    LeBron James wasn’t naming names but he seemed to be referring to J.R.

  • [NYDN] Joakim Noah continues to trash city of Cleveland before opener
    (Tuesday, October 25, 2016 3:33:45 PM)

    Famous Cleveland denigrator Joakim Noah couldn’t resist throwing a little shade on one of the biggest sports nights in the city’s history.

  • [NYPost] Joakim Noah mocks Cleveland after congratulating Cavs fans
    (Tuesday, October 25, 2016 9:27:21 PM)

    The only defiance from the Knicks on Tuesday came before their 117-88 season-opening loss — just as the Cavaliers began their ring ceremony. Joakim Noah, whose disdain for the Cavaliers is well-documented, needed to be told to leave the court as he shot free throws while the lights dimmed for the ceremony and a video…

  • [NYPost] Derrick Rose’s blunt take on his Game 1 Knicks performance
    (Tuesday, October 25, 2016 8:48:30 PM)

    CLEVELAND — In the hours before his Knicks debut, Derrick Rose took his fist and knocked it on the Quicken Loans Arena hardwood. He had been asked whether this was the longest period he hadn’t had a setback with his knees. Rose admitted to “nerves’’ before his first game as a Knick and said his…

  • [NYPost] Knicks’ new-guys report card: Did anyone earn a B?
    (Tuesday, October 25, 2016 8:12:46 PM)

    Here’s how the new-look Knicks graded out in their debuts: Derrick Rose: Looked overanxious with four turnovers in the first half and just one assist all game. Had some great moments exploding to the rim but rust was evident as expected. Grade: C Courtney Lee: Had a quiet preseason and showed little in his debut,…

  • [NYPost] Knicks get Cavalier pass, but home opener can’t be this ugly
    (Tuesday, October 25, 2016 7:52:25 PM)

    CLEVELAND — The NBA may not have done the Knicks any favors by serving them up to the Cavaliers Tuesday night, on a night when Cleveland was feeling awfully damn good about itself. Up went a banner, the first such to commemorate a championship in this town in 52 years. Down went the Knicks. Hard….

  • [NYPost] Knicks kick off another new era with another humiliation
    (Tuesday, October 25, 2016 6:02:18 PM)

    CLEVELAND — The Cavaliers ran rings around the Knicks. Derrick Rose was rusty, Carmelo Anthony was sloppy, Kristaps Porzingis looked far from a budding superstar and Courtney Lee and Joakim Noah were shut out. No, the Knicks’ new glittering starting five didn’t sparkle and the bench was a liability. The Cavaliers got their championship rings…

  • [NYPost] Derrick Rose literally knocks on wood: My knee ghosts are gone
    (Tuesday, October 25, 2016 1:15:01 PM)

    CLEVELAND – In the hours before his Knicks debut, Derrick Rose took a fist and knocked it on the hardwood at Quicken Loans Arena. He had been asked if this was the longest period he hadn’t had a setback with his knees. Rose, who admitted to “nerves’’ before his first game as a Knick, said…

  • [NYPost] What Knicks will be doing while Cavaliers celebrate
    (Tuesday, October 25, 2016 9:09:28 AM)

    CLEVELAND – The Knicks won’t be on the court during the Cavaliers’ pre-game ring ceremony Tuesday night at Quicken Loans Arena, with Knicks coach Jeff Hornacek saying his team instead may spend the time reviewing film before their season opener. In recent days, Hornacek said it would be good for the Knicks to witness the festivites to…

  • [NYTimes] Cavaliers 117, Knicks 88: LeBron James Puts Up Triple-Double as Cavaliers Crush Knicks in Opener
    (Wednesday, October 26, 2016 2:17:23 AM)

    James had 19 points, 14 assists and 11 rebounds for his 43rd career triple-double, and Kyrie Irving scored 29 points, equaling reigning champion Cleveland’s margin of victory.

  • [NYTimes] The Golden State Warriors Play the Beautiful Game
    (Tuesday, October 25, 2016 9:00:22 AM)

    Pass, pass, pass, pass, pass, shoot. Purists and critics agree: It’s a sight to behold.

  • [NYTimes] Essay: I Was Never Jackie Chan, and I’m Not Jeremy Lin
    (Tuesday, October 25, 2016 5:27:07 PM)

    Jeremy Lin is a good basketball player, but also on the shortlist of famous Asians invoked in racist taunts.

  • [NYTimes] When Linsanity Happened
    (Tuesday, October 25, 2016 5:15:39 PM)

    Linsanity reverberates today. We look back on it — the good, the bad and the gaffes — on the eve of Jeremy Lin’s return to New York as a member of the Nets.

  • [ESPN] Rose on Cavs rout: ‘Thank God this is first game’
    (Wednesday, October 26, 2016 1:44:32 AM)

    Rose on Cavs rout: ‘Thank God this is first game’

  • [ESPN] Nothing changes for Cavaliers and Knicks on Opening Night
    (Tuesday, October 25, 2016 11:16:10 PM)

    Nothing changes for Cavaliers and Knicks on Opening Night

  • [NY Newsday] Knicks no match for Cavaliers, LeBron James on opening night
    (Tuesday, October 25, 2016 11:44:33 PM)

    CLEVELAND — The Knicks had a chance in front of a loud crowd and a national television audience to silence the fans and prove they could compete with the NBA champs. But the more things change for the Knicks the more they stay the same.

  • [NY Newsday] Knicks’ Carmelo Anthony wants what Cavs have: Rings
    (Tuesday, October 25, 2016 9:49:00 PM)

    CLEVELAND — Carmelo Anthony wants what LeBron James and ex-teammates J.R. Smith and Iman Shumpert received Tuesday night.

  • [NY Newsday] Knicks won’t watch Cavaliers’ NBA championship ring ceremony
    (Tuesday, October 25, 2016 12:21:52 PM)

    CLEVELAND — The Knicks won’t be witnesses to the Cavaliers’ championship ring ceremony or banner being raised to the rafters.

  • [SNY Knicks] Knicks overwhelmed by Cavs, 117-88, on Opening Night
    (Tuesday, October 25, 2016 10:00:09 PM)

    LeBron James had his 43rd career triple-double, Kyrie Irving scored 29 points and the Cleveland Cavaliers, who raised their championship banner before the game, beat the New York Knicks 117-88 on Tuesday night in the NBA season opener.

  • [SNY Knicks] TD’s 3 keys to victory against Cleveland
    (Tuesday, October 25, 2016 5:05:09 PM)

    SNY.tv’s Tommy Dee lists his 3 keys to victory for the Knicks’ season opener against the Cavaliers tonight.

  • [SNY Knicks] Hornacek, Rose, Porzingis and Carmelo prepare for season opener
    (Tuesday, October 25, 2016 3:09:26 PM)

    Hornacek, Rose, Porzingis and Carmelo prepare for season opener

  • [SNY Knicks] Why Porzingis holds the keys for the present and future
    (Tuesday, October 25, 2016 2:15:50 PM)

    While the Knicks are looking like a potential playoff team this season, it is Kristaps Porzingis that holds the keys for the team’s present and future success.

  • [SNY Knicks] SNY’s coverage of the Knicks shootaround in Cleveland
    (Tuesday, October 25, 2016 11:12:44 AM)

    SNY’s coverage of the Knicks shootaround in Cleveland

  • [SNY Knicks] Season preview from Myles Mills
    (Tuesday, October 25, 2016 11:35:38 AM)

    This time last year was vastly different. The Knicks finished with a 32-50 record, and did little to change the opinions of pessimists and Carmelo Anthony haters. This year is a lot different. The East is no longer the push over conference.

  • [SNY Knicks] Van Gundy, Jackson like the Knicks roster makeover, envision playoffs
    (Tuesday, October 25, 2016 10:01:27 AM)

    ESPN NBA analysts Jeff Van Gundy and Mark Jackson like the roster makeover the Knicks underwent this offseason and envision them as a playoff contender (Best, Oct. 25).

  • 136 replies on “Knicks Morning News (2016.10.26)”

    Amazingly it seems chemistry and preparation matter in this league. CLE basically returns their entire team and it actually looks like they know what they’re doing in spanking us in the 2nd half. SA returns their whole team minus Duncan (who was playing a lot less as the year went on last year) and they put a royal hurt on GS who replaced half their team also. And GS was playing at home and had their entire team for the entire training camp and preseason.

    Too early to make any judgments on our team so far, when it was clearly obvious we had zero idea what we were doing on the offensive end. Cleveland’s a very good defensive team, but our guys were throwing the ball all over the yard. Tons of high risk passes, balls that guys weren’t expecting or not in the exact location they were expecting.

    If we’re playing like this in December we’ve got a big problem obviously. It’ll take 10 games for us to figure it out. hopefully we’re not 2-8 at that point.

    Re: Rose – I actually thought he looked ok for a guy who hadn’t played in about 2 weeks. Maybe he ran out of steam in the 2nd half, and certainly he had no idea of what the offense was supposed to be. He doesn’t get a good whistle, that’s for sure.

    Re: Melo – I’m very concerned that he’s basically given up on taking the ball to the basket – especially against a Cleveland team that doesn’t really have any rim protection other than Lebron.

    Re: Jennings – um, he’s sort of terrible I think. Yes he pushes the pace, but he can’t finish at the rim and his shot selection is awful. If I’m Hornacek, I tell him that he can never take pull-up 3’s unless absolutely necessary and that he’ll be immediately benched if he does.

    Is it possible that Ron Baker is one of our 3 best guards? he looks so smooth out there.

    Overall – assuming Rose figures out the offense, I feel better about our guards than before – Holiday can play, Lee will be fine, and I think Baker is a legit rotation guy.

    I think what we saw last night is what we’ll get the entire season: a bad team that looks ok on occasion.

    Yes, there will be better nights and even the occasional upset. There will be games when it looks like the team is finally getting things together only to be followed by a loss to another bad team.

    Was Melo good last night? He certainly looked good when the ball was going in, but he was mostly bad the whole night. Was Rose any good? He was for one or two minutes at a time. Even Porzingis: he shows glimpses of greatness with the quick, fluid release not common in 7-footers and the long reach, but the guy can’t or won’t rebound and has a tendency to stay around the 3-point arc on defense and offense, somehow nullifying height, his main strenght.

    In short, this a team devoid of real talent and the final 37 wins (if everything goes right) will prove it. It’s just one game, but it went the way it should have been expected. You can’t really go anywhere without the right players.

    As far as I’m concerned Ron Baker is the best PG on the team, followed by Sasha

    I’m only half joking

    Rose says he wants pick-and-roll, Melo says the PG should get what he wants, but Jacksons is the boss and he wants the triangle.

    Clusterfuck ahead.

    Silky Johnson with the absolute best comment last night:

    “Literally the only way LT draws fouls is by getting people to leave their feet and then lurching into them like a homeless man’s D-Wade. And he has the slowest pump fake in the world. Lance is just weird, man.”

    Man I wish we had a mute button on this website.

    Great post, Frank. I think it’s going to become more difficult for Hornacek to play Jennings and O’Quinn over Baker and Hernangomez since they’re the team’s youth and they’re both good NBA level players. I think our biggest problem last night was a combination of the shitty whistle our guys get compared to the amazing whistle the Cavs get (I recall watching Frye push BJ and the foul being given to BJ). When the ref doesn’t call a consistent game it affects the turnover and scoring efficiency margins.

    One thing I do like is that KP gets blocks and gets foul calls. That should remain consistent over the season and it should prove to be important in our win totals. I just need more boards from him and more assists from our lead guards.

    I think what we saw last night is what we’ll get the entire season: a bad team that looks ok on occasion.

    Lol. You know Cleveland won the title last year right? It’s not like this happened against some run of the mill Team. Rose missed 2 weeks of practice and game time. His dribbling was terrible. The offense had very good moments and some very bad moments. Those will be ironed out with more reps together as a team. Lebron is still the baddest man on the planet and Kyrie is slick as fuck. It’s ok. I do think they need to run more pure Pnr however with Melo and Rose and the handlers. We saw some good things when that happened

    KP had 4 offensive boards, which is fine. He isn’t getting defensive boards because our defensive scheme has him on the perimeter assigned to guards on the 3 point line.

    Didn’t comment on the coaching:

    1) I would have liked to see less doubling of Lebron. He just destroys doubles.
    2) I would liked to see MORE doubling of Kyrie when he went supernova in the 3rd quarter
    3) I would prefer never to again see a lineup that doesn’t have one of KP, Melo, Noah, or Rose like the one he threw out there the beginning of the 2nd quarter.

    I would prefer never to again see a lineup that doesn’t have one of KP, Melo, Noah, or Rose like the one he threw out there the beginning of the 2nd quarter.

    Yeah that was terrible. That lineup was the reason that the team had to make that big comeback in the second.

    A few thoughts:

    1. If Thomas isn’t hitting threes, he’s an utterly useless player. I sure hope last year wasn’t a mirage because he’ll be around for a while.

    2. A lot of Jennings criticism, and far be it from me to suggest he’s not a deeply flawed player, but last night is pretty much par for the course from him. He’ll never score efficiently and there’ll always be plenty of bad shots, but ideally he’ll throw some nice passes in there too and keep the turnovers low. He was better than Rose last night.

    3. The Rose of last night was the Rose of last year, AKA one of the worst point guards in the NBA. I think he’ll be better going forward, but the burden of proof is on him to show he doesn’t suck. Needless to say, if we get the Rose of the last two seasons we aren’t going anywhere.

    4. I’m just going to pretend I didn’t see whatever that was from Courtney Lee.

    5. I think Noah can still be a very productive player, but his value suffers if he’s on a team that struggles to score because his passes and offensive rebounds don’t turn into points and he can’t really score himself.

    6. Holiday may wind up as our 6/7th man, but I’m not sure who that says more about…

    7. Melo looks like Melo. I don’t foresee anything surprising in either direction this year.

    8. it looked to me like Porzingis’ relatively low rebound total could be attributed to defensive positioning. Whether that was by design or by chance matters, so we’ll see. Everything else looked right from him.

    9. The kids look alright. If this season goes off the rails hopefully we take the opportunity to see if we have anything in Baker, Hernangomez, Kuzminskas, etc.

    KP on the perimeter on D is strange, not to say stupid. It’s not like he’s playing Shaq out there in the 2016 NBA.

    As far as I’m concerned Ron Baker is the best PG on the team, followed by Sasha

    I’m only half joking

    Only because Sasha is the safer bet than the totally unproven Ron Baker.

    Wondering what those complaining about KP being on the perimeter defensively would have done differently. Kevin Love is a 3 point shooter. What was KP supposed to do? In Cleveland’s default lineup, everyone other than Thompson is a threat from 3 point range. Unless you’re going to have Noah guarding Love, KP has to be on the perimeter.

    I will also live with opposing PGs taking step back 3’s over Porzingis. No matter what happened last night that’s not a high percentage shot.

    Unless you’re going to have Noah guarding Love, KP has to be on the perimeter.

    Yep, and Frye was out there for a while too. IDK what people expected him to do, between guarding stretch bigs and CLE’s 1-4 PnR’s designed to get KP on Kyrie, and get KP (our best rim protector) away from the rim.

    If KP’s future starting position is at the 5, you better get used to seeing KP defending out to the three point line, because a C who can switch onto smaller defenders far from the rim is a very, very valuable thing. That’ll likely hurt his rebounding, but it has plenty of other benefits.

    It just wasn’t a good look last night because he was pretty much the only one defending at all. And if your defense is as bad as ours was last night, it’s better to have a good rim protector than a C who can defend the three point line.

    Also Kyrie was smoking hot.

    . The Rose of last night was the Rose of last year, AKA one of the worst point guards in the NBA. I think he’ll be better going forward, but the burden of proof is on him to show he doesn’t suck. Needless to say, if we get the Rose of the last two seasons we aren’t going anywhere.

    Rose wasn’t great, but if he doesn’t blow a couple of bunnies, he’s 9-17. Obviously 1 assist and 4 turnovers isn’t gonna cut it, but I wouldn’t call it a disastrous debut.

    If Thomas isn’t hitting threes, he’s an utterly useless player. I sure hope last year wasn’t a mirage because he’ll be around for a while.

    Utterly useless? I don’t know about that, he’s actually one of the Knicks’ better on ball defenders (2 steals last night FWIW) He does need to hit shots, but I don’t think he’s a big problem for us.

    Rose wasn’t great, but if he doesn’t blow a couple of bunnies, he’s 9-17. Obviously 1 assist and 4 turnovers isn’t gonna cut it, but I wouldn’t call it a disastrous debut.

    I think it was a debut that will let both the Rose optimists and the Rose pessimists see what they want to see. He got to the basket a bunch, but missed a lot of shots (some easy, some absurdly difficult) and really didn’t look to distribute much. From my perspective (as a Rose pessimist) it’s the lack of distribution that worries me. I don’t think MVP Rose is ever coming back, but there’s also no reason that a guy with the talents he still has should be one of the least valuable players in the league (like Rose was last year). If he can adjust his game I still believe he has the talent to be an average starting NBA PG (which is a really valuable player), but I didn’t see many signs of adjustment last night. He played like he thinks he’s the guy who is supposed to carry the offensive load, and if he does that I think he sabotages a lot of the talents he has left.

    1 assist and 4 turnovers is definitely my definition of a terrible debut. The Knicks can’t afford to give Derrick Rose a pre season to play like shit; we need good play and we need it now. I’m a huge Rose supporter but numbers don’t lie (even if they don’t tell the entire truth). He has to be better and I believe he will. Hopefully he roasts Mike Conley on Saturday, and he has to flip that assist to turnover ratio.

    I really want Hornacek to show all of the lackluster efforts made by BJ and Rose when it came to getting over screens and leaving Porzingis in space on Kyrie. He needs to come to film review with “Hold Each Other Accountable” shirts so that when that happens it’s called out on the spot. That defense was terrible and it’s why Cleveland was able to go on runs.

    I remember three years back when we were playing Charlotte. Our 1/4 combo was the top 5 pick duo of Felton and Bargnani. Whenever we would come back in that game, Charlotte would run a pick and roll because they knew Felton wouldn’t fight through the screen and that would leave Kemba Walker on Bargnani. It was a bucket every time and we couldn’t stop it. If teams know they can challenge you and win every time, they will continue to challenge you. Rose and Jennings need to be roasted on film all day today.

    or just get creative. let Rose defend the 2s, Lee defend the 1s, if the opposing team’s 1 >> their 2 …shit like that. That way Lee has a good shot to short circuit a “1-4” PnR by getting over it or just playing it better than Rose. Of course, creative/complex PnR coverage comes with time and practice so no surprise there wasn’t much of that yesterday

    I really want Hornacek to show all of the lackluster efforts made by BJ and Rose when it came to getting over screens and leaving Porzingis in space on Kyrie.

    This is a very good point. There’s not a lot of difference between Rose/Jennings on defense and Calderon if those guys are just going to evaporate on every screen. That was some excruciatingly bad perimeter defense last night. Since the Knicks are still basically in extended training camp it might be a little while before they get some of these issues fixed. The next game is against Memphis, a team that looks like it is clearly in decline. If the Knicks stink out the joint against Memphis, that is not a good sign.

    Hopefully Hornacek won’t be turned into a scapegoat. Even the best coaches (there is no evidence JH is one of them, of course) can’t turn 12 NBA replacement-level players into a contender.

    Quite honestly, only Melo has a legitimate claim to being a starter in any current NBA team. Porzingis, for all his potential, would be a semi-starter or bench player on a top-10 team. He has been forced into “savior” status because the team is so bad – which is utterly unfair to him and could do more harm than good in the long run.

    Then, we have 4 semi-starters/good bench players : Noah, Lee, Rose and Jennings.

    The rest of the team is weak bench / unknown or undrafted material at best: Hernangomez, Lance Thomas, O’quinn, Baker, Holiday, Ndour, Plumlee, Vujacic, Kuzminskas.

    This is a bad team with one of the worst NBA benches.

    Sorry if my analysis offends anyone, but that’s the way it looks to me.

    LOL @ the doom and gloom. Cavs are the champs with the exact same team coming back. We’ve got a lot of new pieces including a new coach and our starting PG and starting C missed a lot of training camp. We’re gonna struggle for a bit.

    GSW lost by 20 last night. I guess they’re gonna suck this year.

    Porzingis, for all his potential, would be a semi-starter or bench player on a top-10 team

    Get the HECK out of here. As he is now, KP can protect the rim and camp out on the 3 point line. He would definitely start for Boston or Portland.

    LOL @ the doom and gloom.
    GSW lost by 20 last night. I guess they’re gonna suck this year

    Big difference is GSW have the personnel needed to come back from that ass whipping. The Knicks don’t.

    Is Derrick Rose just gonna heroball his way through the season or is he going to have some Zen epiphany moment where Phil takes him to the desert and feeds him ayahuasca and he meets his spirit animal (it’s a coyote BTW) and then comes back and realizes he is allowed to pass the ball when three defenders have collapsed on him near the rim? I’m hoping for “spirit animal” but I’m guessing we’re mostly going to see “heroball.”

    Big difference is GSW have the personnel needed to come back from that ass whipping.

    So why did they lose? And so badly at home lol

    Is Derrick Rose just gonna heroball his way through the season or is he going to have some Zen epiphany moment where Phil takes him to the desert and feeds him ayahuasca and he meets his spirit animal (it’s a coyote BTW) and then comes back and realizes he is allowed to pass the ball when three defenders have collapsed on him near the rim? I’m hoping for “spirit animal” but I’m guessing we’re mostly going to see “heroball.”

    If Derrick Rose puts up 1 assist and 4 turnovers every game, then yes, we are truly doomed. He averaged 4.7 assists and 2.7 turnovers last year in an admittedly bad season, so I think we can expect him to pass the ball more than once a game.

    Sorry if my analysis offends anyone, but that’s the way it looks to me.

    don’t cut yrself on that edge, bro

    @ yeah HUGE eye role at the idea that Zinger wouldn’t start on any team in the NBA. I’m sorry but Zinger would probably start on most teams in the NBA just off of his potential and length alone. All ready throwing the kid under the bus after one average game. Guess it starts early for Knicks players.

    Honestly if all season its gonna be doom and gloom and “I told you so” after every loss I might have to peace out on this blog.

    KP is good at getting to the line, hitting his free throws at an acceptable rate not so much. He needs to raise that percentage pronto.

    I’d like to go on record saying Ron Baker will be the biggest positive surprise of the season for hte Knicks. He’s a quality shooter who is comfortable doing stuff off the dribble even if he doesn’t have a great first step, and if you watch him closely on defense, he has the same earthbound quality as Bruce Bowen. What I mean by that is his movement is very controlled defensively. He never overreacts to the choices of the guy he’s guarding, allowing him to stay between his man and the basket while giving up minimal breathing room.

    I don’t think he’s a guy you rely on in a bench unit, at least not for scoring, but I think if you add him to a lineup that makes sense offensively, he’ll be very productive.

    So why did they (GSW) lose? And so badly at home lol

    Because all teams lose, even the best ones. And they lose badly at home, on occasion.

    Only difference is bad teams like the Knicks do it far more frequently.

    Give the team about two weeks or ten games. After that the “not played together, new players, gel” explanations get old. But game one with the new starting point guard missing most of the pre-season against the defending champs returning most of their core, they get a pass.

    As for KP defending the perimeter I thought the defensive mobility “out to the three point line” and such was one of the big assets of Noah’s especially vis-à-vis Robin Lopez.

    Yup. Only bad teams get beat by the defending NBA champions on the road in the first game of the season. And its definitely fair to say we’re a bad team after one game losing to the defending champs when 9 players on the team are new and are starting PG missed all of training camp. Yup. Totally logical reasoning going on there. No bias at all!

    As for KP defending the perimeter I thought the defensive mobility “out to the three point line” and such was one of the big assets of Noah’s especially vis-à-vis Robin Lopez.

    Except this was happening a lot when Noah was not in the game, and Melo and Lance were playing the other forward spots. It’s one thing to have KP roaming around the perimeter when there is another rim protector in the game, but when the Knicks are playing the small lineup and KP is at the 5, it doesn’t really work.

    I agree that it’s very premature to start declaring this team to be a bust, and I’m one of the resident pessimists here. Last night’s team definitely had a training camp feel to it. It’s going to take a little while to get this team playing up to its potential.

    We played a team that has Kyrie Irving, LeBron James, Kevin Love, and Tristan Thompson in its starting five, and they’ve been together going on 3 seasons. The Cavs make most teams in the league look bad.

    We’ll beat the Grizzlies.

    @40 sigh. You have the same evidence from both teams but you are sure one team is good and one is bad lol. Whatever.

    i would take it easy on the defensive issues yesterday….. they were playing frye and love who are always parked beyond the arc…. cleveland next to houston run the most spread pnr’s… kp is not going to look great against these teams defensively… and he’s always going to be out on the perimeter defending whatever stretch 4 or 5 is out there…. it’s a complete non-issue…

    the offense on the other hand has huge problems…. and it starts with rose and if he thinks he’s not too far off mvp caliber and he’s trying to shoot his way back to that… then we are in for a load of hurt…

    Rose got to the rim with ease….he just shot like shit when he got there. He had some nice takes though. He needs to be under control. The first play of the game where he took kyrie to the hole for the easy bucket was a thing of beauty

    I don’t have high hopes for Rose transforming into some sort of lower usage, pass-first guard. Dude shoots the rock. That is his game. And this is why I’m skeptical of the argument that Rose’s penetration will create easier looks for his teammates and thus help the team’s eFG% problems. He’s just not much of a facilitator.

    Problem isn’t the result, its the process. For those of us who worried about how these pieces would gel last night confirmed our worse fears – Rose is a hog, Jennings is erratic, neither want to defend on the perimeter, Lance Thomas looks useless on offense, and Melo looks winded in the up tempo system

    Jesus Christ man. I wonder what your kind would have said if the knicks won that game?

    The hot takes are makin my head spin

    “KP is good at getting to the line, hitting his free throws at an acceptable rate not so much. He needs to raise that percentage pronto.”
    Agreed! 50% shooting on 6 foul shots is much more indicative of his foul shooting ability (or, more accurately, his total lack thereof), than the 84% that he hit last year on 240 foul shots!

    “your kind” – you mean fans who aren’t going to jump to the negative narrative that people feed themselves on bc LOL KNICKS?

    Yeah, I’m not gonna go crazy over a loss to the champs on opening night when we’re a new team and our starting PG and C didn’t play with the squad most of training camp.

    We blew out the Bucks last year on opening night and started 4-2, played 500 most of the season before the bottom fell out. We beat Lebron 2 years ago and then won only 16 more games. Opening night means jack shit. The negative peeps on this board always talk about the constant roster turnover and how we don’t have stability but then gleefully declare “this team sucks” after the first game of the new season, ignoring that team chemistry is a real thing that takes time.

    So yeah, if we beat them I would have been psyched cause I’m a GD KNICKS FAN SON! It would be a very encouraging sign. But I’m not gonna throw my arms up in despair and start gnashing my teeth in agony bc we lost to the champs on opening night. Lets see how they do next game at home against an inferior team with a few more practices under their belt.

    Good sign: 8 of Rose’s 17 shots came inside of 5 feet, and he made 4 of them. The fact that he attacked so frequently is a good sign.

    Bad sign: The Knicks only took 23 shots inside 5 feet. Last year they averaged 25, the third worst mark in the league.

    Good sign: The Knicks shot 27 3s, last year they averaged 21. Lee, Holliday, Melo, KP, and Kuz all appear to be solid spot-up options. Baker could be in the mix as well.

    Bad sign: The Knicks committed 18 turnovers after averaging just 13 last year. Rose and Melo both had 4, which is uncharacteristic for both.

    Bottom line: The Knicks were embarrassed on the road against an extremely well-oiled juggernaut which defeated one of the greatest teams of all time in a 7 game series. A team with a +8.2 regular season point differential at home, and a completely absurd +17.1 point differential at home during the playoffs.

    Here is the Cavs win margin at home during the playoffs against Detroit, Atlanta, Toronto and Golden State: 5, 17, 11, 25, 31, 19, 48, 30 (against GSW), 14 (against GSW).

    Cleveland has committed to the 5 out pnr offense and is basically unguardable with Irving, Lebron and
    Love on the floor.

    The only way to hang with them is to play well offensively, and that’s where the Knicks disappointed last night.

    I expect Cleveland to surpass 60 wins this year if they’re healthy. Last night was a scheduled loss, and how the Knicks play on opening night is not likely to determine how they’ll be playing a month from now.

    Noah’s minutes in the regular and preseason have been very good. In the two game’s Rose has played, he has been rim-oriented, which is a great sign. Through the preseason and last night, the Knicks have played at a fast pace and generated a lot of 3-pt shots, showing a greater depth of quality spot-ups shooters than previously thought.

    Optimists BEFORE game: Trap game for Cavs, letdown after CHIP ceremony

    Optimists AFTER game: Champs at home energized after CHIP ceremony.

    Pessimists BEFORE and AFTER game: Past is prologue.

    I thought that we played great for the first half. There’s plenty to build off of there. By the end of the season we’ll be blowing away the Cavs. For sure.

    er: Rose got to the rim with ease….he just shot like shit when he got there.

    This is exactly what Rose did all of last season. 45% of all Rose’s shots last season were within 5′ of the rim. Unfortunately, his FG% there was an extremely disappointing 46.9%. League average is 55.5%. At this point, unless something changes, Rose is kind of like Shane Larkin — quick enough to beat just about anyone off the dribble but lacking the final boost (and probably the confidence in his body), to finish.

    In that span post ASB where he played better, he was still only at 50.7% FG% within 5′.

    And that doesn’t even factor in that he doesn’t draw fouls. Guys like Isaiah Thomas were just as inefficient in terms of FG% near the basket, but Thomas draws more than twice as many fouls.

    At least Larkin knew that he lacked that boost and didn’t force shots. Rose doesn’t, and as a result, he’s going to eat a ton of possessions on these drives that look oh so pretty until the part where he actually shoots the ball.

    And to be clear since this is the part of the season where saying something negative means you’re overreacting, this has been my opinion since the trade was announced. I actually like many parts of hte Knicks roster. I’m just down on Rose and after the weak preseason and his history of awful play, Lance Thomas as well. If those two guys combine for 50+ mins per game all season long, it’s gonna be a struggle.

    1st half we were both lucky and good. Melo and Rose were unstoppable, the Cavs were missing shots, and all was great in Knickdom. 2nd half, the Cavs remembered what their bread and butter was, and Kyrie went 2K mode. I’m not upset about the fact we lost..I’m pissed off at how we lost. The wheels completely fell off in the 2nd half. Not only did the Cavs start hitting shots and did Kyrie turn all the way up, but we seemed to give less effort on defense and relied less on the flow of the offense to get shots. That iso-ball killed us. The silver lining is the rest of the team, especially the starters, need to mesh with a dynamic PG. Thankfully, the fact that we have 5 new rotation pieces and 4 rookies should buy us time to mesh. Plus having a PG with Rose’s ability isn’t the easiest thing to build chemistry with in a new offense. The fact that he missed most of the preseason due to the trial doesn’t help with the meshing. It will get better. I really wish Longabardi was on the staff though.

    @58 Nah those are all good points. I just would like to see him use the glass. It’s kinda like he flails it up when he gets close

    the reason for rose’s struggle at the rim is that he is stopping and using floaters now… the trademark explosion that was there that made him imperceptible with westbrook is gone… he’s also gained some weight.. not fat but he’s also a lot bulkier…

    we will look better… we won’t turn the ball over as much… we’ll hit more shots… but this rose hijacking of the offense is not going away… in fact… i’m pretty sure he’ll be second on the team in usage until he gets benched and that is a huge problem…. not only hurting our win total but for KP’s development…

    I think part of it is the fact that Kyrie is a terrible defender. Rose also had some good fast break plays which were refreshing to see after seeing Calderon

    Hopefully Hornacek won’t be turned into a scapegoat. Even the best coaches (there is no evidence JH is one of them, of course) can’t turn 12 NBA replacement-level players into a contender.

    Quite honestly, only Melo has a legitimate claim to being a starter in any current NBA team. Porzingis, for all his potential, would be a semi-starter or bench player on a top-10 team. He has been forced into “savior” status because the team is so bad – which is utterly unfair to him and could do more harm than good in the long run.

    Then, we have 4 semi-starters/good bench players : Noah, Lee, Rose and Jennings.

    The rest of the team is weak bench / unknown or undrafted material at best: Hernangomez, Lance Thomas, O’quinn, Baker, Holiday, Ndour, Plumlee, Vujacic, Kuzminskas.

    This is a bad team with one of the worst NBA benches.

    Even though I’m not a fan of Theo’s often unnecessarily condescending and gloomy rhetoric, aside from the “12 replacement level players” reach, he has a reasonable point here. Not a single Knicks player other than Melo at this time would be guaranteed to be a starter on a top-10 team. And it could be argued that even Melo has gotten by lately on reputation rather than results. We can be hopeful that KP, Rose, Noah, Lee, Jennings, and 2 or 3 other bench guys play better than they have recently or surprise as rookies, but there is no hard evidence that any of them will.

    I would hope that Horny avoids playing Willybilly and Kyle together. That wasn’t very fair to Willybilly.
    Willybilly and KP should get some time together because they compliment each other well and have experience together. Actually Kyle and Noah would probably work too.

    Starting for a top 10 team is something lots of guys on the Knicks could do. Its a meaningless way of evaluating basketball players

    I don’t think he’s a guy [Baker] you rely on in a bench unit, at least not for scoring, but I think if you add him to a lineup that makes sense offensively, he’ll be very productive.

    I agree with Latke – I kind of think he should start, though Lee provides similar value, so I guess that doesn’t make sense. But Baker strikes me as a Landry Fields kind of player (before Landry lost his shot), very heady, knows where he’s supposed to be, puts out effort, a solid role player, etc. He would provide more value with the starters than with the bench.

    I’m actually pretty optimistic about our young players – KP, WillyBilly, Baker, even Kuz all seem like NBA quality. Basically we just haven’t had time to practice, so Hornacek hasn’t found his good lineups yet. But we have enough ingredients to be decent…then we just need a great PG next year and we’ll actually be good.

    “He’s just not much of a facilitator.”
    Quite the understatement. For the Knicks to be any good he needs to get a lot better at distributing, cutting down on the turnovers, and scoring more efficiently when he gets to the rim. Odds of all 3 of those happening any time soon are slim. He is a talented player though so hope springs eternal.

    I read today Rose’s solution to the offense: just let him pick and roll every play because he’s a great player.

    There you have it! Super team. Great player.

    Phil should’ve known that Derrick wasn’t gonna dump the ball off and sprint to the corner. I wouldn’t worry about it until we’re about 15-20 games in though.

    Pessimists 1, Optimists 0
    Going to be a long season. Keep your heads up fellas, it can’t be as bad as it looked last night.

    Can Logen have a conversation with Dolan?

    I liked The First Law trilogy a lot but Patrick Rothfuss is definitely my #1.

    Starting for a top 10 team is something lots of guys on the Knicks could do. Its a meaningless way of evaluating basketball players.

    If you are saying that lots of Knicks could be the 5th guy in the starting lineup on a top-10 team, I would agree. I’m talking about guys that would possibly displace the 5 best players on good teams based on their actual recent play, not potential.

    What Knicks are consensus starting caliber players on a playoff team based on actual recent performance, ignoring salary cap driven compromises, like Zaza on GSW? Only Melo. Everyone else does not have statistics (as opposed to potential) that would merit being targeted for a starting spot by a good team that wasn’t bargain-hunting due to cap considerations i.e. looking for someone who could hold the fort without hurting the team. You could actually argue that based on play, every single Knicks player not on a rookie or vets minimum deal is being overpaid.

    My hope is that some of our players will play more like they did during their peak (Melo, Rose, Noah, Jennings, Lance, Sasha) or will get better with age and experience (KP, Willy, Kuz, Baker, Holiday, Plumlee, KOQ.) But as it stands right now, Theo has a point.

    Theo doesn’t have a point. The Knicks played like shit in the second half for a variety of factors.

    Lebron, Kyrie being the principal 2. The defense sucked the whole game. That’s about it

    Lee was starting in the playoffs last year. Jo Noah was starting in the playoffs two years ago. JR Smith started for a title winning team last year. Starting for a top 10 team says very little about how good a player is

    Sixers look alright early. A lot of buzz too.. I’d rather have that roster with Porzingis.

    Except you can’t because him and Okafor in the same draft. Also lol.

    This place has really turned into hot take time machine eh?

    I dunno what your hot take time machine is referencing… just saying at this point I wouldn’t mind buzz. Last night was only one game, albeit a sobering one. As a fan, you get so amped up for opening night… and to be let down in such a way… though it’s not much different from last year …

    reub,

    If I correctly guess your opinions on national policy, will you leave the board until the Knicks make the playoffs?

    Sincerely,

    THCJ

    If the Heat can resist the urge to give Dion Waiters a lot of minutes I like their chances to surpass their O/U (34). Some sneakily useful guys on that team and Whiteside is just amazing.

    I want to comment on shooting percentage at the rim. If Rose takes lots of shots at the rim and shoots 50%, I will be frustrated because whenever I see a shot that close to rim intuitively I want it to go in. But if those are most or all of his shots that’s probably a good percentage and he should keep taking them. Why? Because any time a player can shoot 50% from the field that’s a good percentage. It’s true that overall NBA shots at the rim go in at a higher rate than 50%, but that’s because most players shoot mostly jump shots, and they average less than 50% made overall. So Rose can get a higher percentage of two pointers going on than most players do if all his shots are drives to net.

    It’s a bit like tennis. McEnroe was known for a good net game and Lendl was not. So you would think McEnroe had a higher percentage at the net. But that’s not the case. Lendl probably won 80% or more of his forays to the net and McEnroe probably won 60%. The difference is Lendl only came to net when it was a very easy and obvious way to win the point. McEnroe came in all the time. There is no question McEnroe was the better net player, and right to attack the net, despite the percentage difference in success.

    KAT and Myles Turner having great games tonight

    Let’s hope KP turns up against Memphis on Saturday

    If the Heat can resist the urge to give Dion Waiters a lot of minutes I like their chances to surpass their O/U (34). Some sneakily useful guys on that team and Whiteside is just amazing.

    This take gets the official DRed seal of approval

    Bad examples, DRed. Noah was a really good player the year before that and declined, so his most recent stats made him a starter. JR was a salary cap fill-in who would not start for more than half the teams in the NBA. Lee was let go by the team that could offer him the most money, obviously they felt they could easily replace him. He is our worst starter by reputation and wouldn’t start over JR and most other starting 2’s. But you go right on being obtuse.

    I’ll make it simpler for you. Not a single Knicks player is a lock for the top-20 at his position based solely on his stats in the last 2 years, not even Melo. Agree or disagree?

    Z-man, Since there are 5 positions there must be 100 players in the top 20 of their positions, and since there are 30 teams, there are 150 starters. So you are saying Melo is outside the top 100 players? And everyone on the team is 151st in the league or worse overall? I don’t buy either of those propositions.

    I’ll make it simpler for you. Not a single Knicks player is a lock for the top-20 at his position based solely on his stats in the last 2 years, not even Melo. Agree or disagree?

    None of that has shit to do with being a starter on a top 10 team. My problem is with the way you’re evaluating the Knicks roster. Who can start for a top 10 team? Anyone who isn’t really awful, and even then if your teammates are good enough you probably still can pull it off.

    I would say Courtney Lee is a good bet to be a top 20 2 guard, since he was one last year. Melo is also a good bet to be a top 20 SF, as he was one last year. Rose is probably going to suck. Noah is a decent bet to be a top 20 center, because he’s been one every year he’s been in the NBA except for last year, which he missed with an injury. The problem with the Knicks roster is not that we don’t have any decent players, it’s that we probably don’t have any really good players.

    Pretty boy Karl Towns with a feeble 4 rebounds so far. Twitter made it sounds like he was having a monstrous night. That’s why I watch the box scores.

    My old pal James Ennis is having a better night than KAT.

    The problem with the Knicks roster is not that we don’t have any decent players, it’s that we probably don’t have any really good players

    And that’s why most of them would not start for a good (top 10) team.

    Nobody is trying to evaluate them. They were evaluated based on their history/stats and the conclusion is they would not start for a top-10 team. That’s called “putting things in perspective”.

    @99 It’s possible to be a starter in the NBA and not be among the best 150 players. Iguodala bumps somebody out of that 150-player list, for example.

    Lots of players who aren’t that good have started for top 10 teams in the NBA. Therefore, if a players isn’t that could we can conclude he wouldn’t start for a top 10 team.

    Do you see the problem with your perspective?

    My perspective is very simple: most of the current Knicks would not be given a starting role on a top-ten team – that’s how bad the team roster is. That’s a simple statement that puts things in perspective when it comes to evaluating *the team*, not the players.

    That was the context. You made it about the players, but I was talking about the team.

    The Nuggets need to wait until Mudiay puts up a 25 point game, then trade him for any 1st round picks offered. Guy is a total scrub.

    If that guy can start in the NBA, the Knicks definitely have a top-20-at-his-position player.

    KnickfaninNJ: It’s true that overall NBA shots at the rim go in at a higher rate than 50%, but that’s because most players shoot mostly jump shots, and they average less than 50% made overall. So Rose can get a higher percentage of two pointers going on than most players do if all his shots are drives to net.

    NBA average points per shot is between 1.08 and 1.1 over the last 5 seasons at least. Shooting 50% on a two pointer is 1 point per shot. It’s losing basketball. In fact, if a team averaged 1 point per shot last season, they would have been the least efficient team in the NBA. Some players make up for low FG% on drives by drawing a ton of fouls, but Rose doesn’t do that.

    I’d say that if the Knicks traded KP to Golden State that they would start him at C.

    Theo, go look at the rosters of top 10 teams the last few years and see if you can find some starters who are less productive than average players at their positions

    @99 no, only that whether at SF or PF there are 20 players who put up better advanced stats than Melo did in the last couple of years. (e.g. .530 TS%, .110 WS48). I clearly said based on recent preformance, not potential.

    I would say Courtney Lee is a good bet to be a top 20 2 guard, since he was one last year. Melo is also a good bet to be a top 20 SF, as he was one last year. Rose is probably going to suck. Noah is a decent bet to be a top 20 center, because he’s been one every year he’s been in the NBA except for last year, which he missed with an injury. The problem with the Knicks roster is not that we don’t have any decent players, it’s that we probably don’t have any really good players.

    Not disagreeing, only pointing out that their recent stats don’t support this. imo Lee was not a top-20 SG mainly due to his very low usage. Noah was clearly not a top 20 center last year and prob not the year before that either.

    @116 – We can greatly simplify the task by agreeing that
    1. Lance Thomas
    2. Ndour
    3. O’Quinn
    4. Kuzminkas
    5. Baker
    6. Holiday
    7. Hernangomez
    8. Jrnnings
    9. Rose
    10. Plumlee
    11. Vujacic

    would likely not start for a current top-10 team in the NBA.
    Then, we can talk about Porzingis, who has great potential and would not be rushed like he is being rushed in New York (because there is nobody better than the rookie on the roster), journeyman Courtney Lee and the greatly diminished Noah.

    We could simplify things even further if you’d listen to what I’m saying and understand that you’re wrong

    Kawhi, AD, Lillard and Harden all taking advantage of Curry and Durant being pre-emptively ruled as unfit to win MVP.

    its funny because Lebron deserves, like, 3 more mvps than he currently has. He really should’ve just won every one besides last year’s

    I’d be fine if they just gave him the MVP this year as a reward for his finals performance

    NBA average points per shot is between 1.08 and 1.1 over the last 5 seasons at least. Shooting 50% on a two pointer is 1 point per shot. It’s losing basketball. In fact, if a team averaged 1 point per shot last season, they would have been the least efficient team in the NBA. Some players make up for low FG% on drives by drawing a ton of fouls, but Rose doesn’t do that.

    That PPS includes free throws. But I think the basic shooting percentage in the NBA without free throws is either 44% or 48%, I forget which one it is for the NBA as a whole. That’s the number I was referring to. Your note of Rose’s 50% shooting in the second half of last year didn’t include free throws, so I also used percentages that didn’t include free throws. I don’t know Roses’ free throw rate for drives to the basket, but he doesn’t have to get very many to get over 1.1 PPS. For example if he drives to the basket 10 times and gets fouled on only one of the drives and makes half the shots (i.e. 50%) then he has 10 points on the shots themselves plus one or two points on the free throws (depending on if he made the shot the foul came on, and rounding off a, say, 80% FT percentage) for a total points of 11 or 12. That’s a PPS of 1.1 or 1.2. So my point stands. His drives are reasonable point scoring opportunities by NBA standards.

    Average eFG% was .502 last year. Don’t come on this here board talking that FG% nonsense.

    You’re trying to gesture toward TS%, but you’re not using it, and I’m not sure why, aside from the fact that Rose rates as a terrible — truly terrible — scorer when using that stat.

    @ KnickfaninNJ

    I’m not sure if there’s a way to see how many FTAs Rose draws on his paint shots, but I guarantee he’s at the bottom of the league in terms of how many points per true shot (counting free throws) he gets on shots in the paint. He only averaged 2.7 FTA/game last season… The difference is going to be pretty small.

    I agree that Rose’s TS% was bad last year. But my point is that might have been because of his jump shots, not his drives to the basket. My back of the envelope math assumed 1.5 FTs per 10 shot attempts. That is, he gets fouled on one out of ten drives. That’s not a lot of fouls. That’s probably in the same ball park as 2.7 FTA/game. If he solely did drives to the basket, and never took jump shots his TS% would probably go to a reasonable level, even though he wouldn’t be getting great results on the drives compared to what we all would like him to do when he drives. I honestly don’t like this conclusion, but it’s what the numbers say to me. What do you think would happen if Hornacek told him to never take a jump shot, and he only drove to the basket. Would his TS% be better?

    I agree that Rose’s TS% was bad last year. But my point is that might have been because of his jump shots, not his drives to the basket.

    His TS% was bad because of his jump shots AND his drives. A good NBA-level point guard should be able to shoot at least .550 from 0-2 feet. Even mediocre guards like Shane Larkin and Jarrett Jack and Jeremy Lin and Jrue Holiday shot over .550 from 0-2 feet last year. Rose shot .510. It’s hard to find other point guards who are in that vicinity. Ricky Rubio was almost as bad, he shot .517 from 0-2 feet. Emmanuel Mudiay did manage a lower FG% near the rim than Rose, so huzzah for that.

    Anyway, even if you did tell him to never shoot a jump shot I imagine the scouting reports would catch up to that pretty quickly, and soon you’d be playing 4-on-5 on offense, with nobody bothering to guard Rose on the perimeter. That would probably not work so well.

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