Will There Be a Rose Growing From the Knicks’ Thorns? – The 2020 NBA Free Agency Thread

Here is a thread for all of the free agent nonsense.

And since we are all polls, all the time now, here ya go…

If Gordon Hayward was available for 3 years/$70 million, would you want the Knicks to sign him?

View Results

Loading ... Loading ...
Liked it? Take a second to support Brian Cronin on Patreon!

530 thoughts to “Will There Be a Rose Growing From the Knicks’ Thorns? – The 2020 NBA Free Agency Thread”

  1. I love how much of a dick Danny Ainge is. The Pacers offered Myles Turner and Doug McDermott for Hayward and Ainge was like, “Nope, Turner and either Oladipo or TJ Warren.”

    Vicious.

  2. I like what Atlanta is doing here. Trae Young not being Luka may ultimately limit their upside but they definitely are in position to be signing some veterans and going for it.

    Frontcourt seems a wee bit crowded though.

    Also, just saw that Clarkson deal. Seems like a big amount of money for someone I think of as average at best – but don’t know his game all that well. Is he a defensive maestro?

  3. has anyone made the joke about dwight howard doing the low budget straight to video deandre jordan sequel yet

  4. Malik Beasley back to Minnesota. I like him but 4/$60M is a little steep for him so I’m not losing sleep.

    Meanwhile I can’t tell whether to be relieved we’re not doing some of these deals (Gallo, I love you, but yikes) or to be worried that it just makes Westbrook that much more likely.

  5. Howard said he was going to stay a Laker yesterday and then signed with the Sixers a few minutes ago.

    I don’t get how the DeAndre joke connects to that but you and Dwight are both sometimes hard to understand and very funny (albeit in different ways.)

  6. thenoblefacehumper: Malik Beasley back to Minnesota. I like him but 4/$60M is a little steep for him so I’m not losing sleep.

    Yeah, that is a big contract for him. Minny could wind up being pretty good, although kind of wing-heavy. Our cap space has to be looking very juicy to teams looking to dump salary, no?

  7. I guess the Knick strategy is to wait this thing out until all other cap space is gone and then give the leftover players lowball offers.

  8. Also I wouldn’t assume Danny Ainge is going to get whatever he wants from Kevin Pritchard. He can save his Myles Turner chip for another day and Boston will go forward without their center.

  9. If I was Hayward I would go to Ainge and simply say it’s Turner and McDermott or I’ll just sign with the Knicks and you’ll get nothing. I don’t really see how Ainge is in a position to play hardball.

  10. Wood for 3/$27M?! That’s a steal, I really wish we beat it. I’ve been out here contemplating 4/$60M for months.

    I guess it’s not as big of a deal now that we have Toppin, but that could be a ridiculously valuable contract.

    I also have no idea what this means for the Rockets. Maybe they should just try running it back now?

  11. thenoblefacehumper: Malik Beasley back to Minnesota. I like him but 4/$60M is a little steep for him so I’m not losing sleep.

    Meanwhile I can’t tell whether to be relieved we’re not doing some of these deals (Gallo, I love you, but yikes) or to be worried that it just makes Westbrook that much more likely.

    See all my comments today about worth vs. market value. Market value is about 1.5 times perceived worth. That’s why I keep saying FVV is going to go for a near max deal.

  12. If we basically run it back with the same roster from last year I’ll be pretty disappointed.

  13. I am shocked that Wood signed for so little and Detroit let him go for so little. Dang. That sucked.

  14. What is Houston doing? Are they just calling Harden and Westbrook’s bluffs?

    Westbrook
    Harden
    Gordon
    Tucker
    Wood

    Is actually a pretty good team. Not a contender, but not far from it.

  15. @ShamsCharania
    Free agent Christian Wood remains engaged with interested teams, sources say.

    I trust Shams over Isola for this kind of thing.

  16. So assuming that something gets done between the Celts and Indy for Hayward, who’s left that we should be interested in?
    Bertans
    Bogdan
    FVV
    Wood
    Jerami
    Harrell (probably not)
    Melton
    Derrick Jones
    KCP

    Anyone else?

  17. Do you think we aren’t moving on Wood because we want Bertrans or do you think it’s because of Toppin? Toppin is a rookie I certainly hope we aren’t not moving on front court help because of him.

  18. I mean Wood and Toppin seem redundant, but at less than $36 mill for 3 years he seems way too good to pass up.

  19. Damn, did Woods sign? I was lavishing in a warm bath of picking him up, along with Conley AND Larkin, and dumping Randle for a pick(le). Then we’d have
    PG: Conley/Larkin
    SG: Bullock/Frank
    SF: Barrett/Bradz/Knox
    PF-C: Mitch/Toppin/Woods
    The big guys get 30 minutes each to see who blocks the most shots, Frank plays with Larkin to help the little guy with defense. Oh well.

  20. We really need a point guard and a 3&D swingman.

    It’s almost as if we should’ve drafted Haliburton and Bane and signed Wood, huh?

  21. Z-man:
    So assuming that something gets done between the Celts and Indy for Hayward, who’s left that we should be interested in?
    Bertans
    Bogdan
    FVV
    Wood
    Jerami
    Harrell (probably not)
    Melton
    Derrick Jones
    KCP

    Anyone else?

    Larkin

    One of:
    Noel
    Cauley-Stein
    Giles
    In that order

  22. GoNYGoNYGo – Tanking forever: See all my comments today about worth vs. market value. Market value is about 1.5 times perceived worth.

    There’s a big difference between $15mill AAV and $30mill AAV. And Minny isn’t exactly a model of a well-run franchise….they may have bid against themselves like we did for TH2 and Courtney Lee.

  23. You have to assume that the Knicks are waiting on VanVleet at this point, but who knows… maybe they have a trade planned that no one has even considered yet?

  24. ess-dog:
    We really need a point guard and a 3&D swingman.

    It’s almost as if we should’ve drafted Haliburton and Bane and signed Wood, huh?

    This makes sense if we were building this roster for this season (which nobody thinks the Knicks should do), if Halliburton was an actual point guard (he’s not), and if the Knicks actually liked Desmond Bane (we have no reason to believe they did).

    So yeah, nah. I’m not a fan of what the Knicks did in the draft but I don’t hate it, and quite frankly if Leon Rose wants to give Smith Jr and Ntilikina the point guard minutes I can get behind that. It’s a lost season as far as fan admission goes so let’s just tank, hopefully draft in the top 3, and move forward from there.

  25. There’s some redundancy sure but Mitch has played 30+ minutes literally 5 times in his career I think, Obi is a rookie (rookies suck) in the hardest circumstances for rookies ever, and Wood is good and young. There’s way more than enough minutes for all 3 this year and if going forward all 3 of those guys are actually good enough that they’re creating a log jam that’s a great problem to have. We should beat that Rockets offer and not by a small margin.

  26. If Wood is available for close to $10 million, how could the Knicks pass? Going from paying Portis $15 to not paying Wood $10 would make me quite annoyed. Wood/Obi/Mitch – there’s plenty of minutes at the 4/5 between the three, assuming they can dump Randle.

    Are they not going to dump Randle? That scares me, too. Are they committed to Randle?

  27. Being fair, how many of you are shocked that we haven’t squandered even a tiny fraction of cap space yet?

  28. i think unless there’s a big opportunity with wood there really isn’t a better choice than to see what you got with randle this year….

  29. djphan:
    i think unless there’s a big opportunity with wood there really isn’t a better choice than to see what you got with randle this year….

    His game is just so unwatchable and he would just get in Toppin’s way. He is just so unrootable, not a bad guy or anything, but his game is fugly.

  30. Honestly my biggest worry is that Julius Randle will be back next season and that’s giving me anxiety.

  31. This makes sense if we were building this roster for this season (which nobody thinks the Knicks should do)

    You’re right. Talented two-way wing players are a terrible idea for the future. A 90s-style dunking big who is a ghost on defense and a point guard that can’t pass definitely make more sense.

  32. As an aside, if the Hayward deal goes through, when the Celts max Tatum, wouldn’t they be over the cap for the next 3 years just with Tatum, Kemba, Brown, Smart and Turner? I count like $120mill.

  33. “Being fair, how many of you are shocked that we haven’t squandered even a tiny fraction of cap space yet?”

    Its freaking me out. 2020 has been super disorienting.

  34. Ben R: I have a similar worry about Smith Jr.

    Agreed but the difference is that Randle at his best is actually good and he’s still unwatchable. DSjr is a terrible player.

  35. ***Is it possible that pt actually is Dwight?***

    Perhaps it’s a coincidence, but I’m pretty sure ptmilo was living in Atlanta in 2016, just sayin’…

  36. This makes sense if we were building this roster for this season (which nobody thinks the Knicks should do)

    i know i’m in the minority, but, we have money, we have some picks – there are good players available…we have a decent coaching staff…there are going to be 10 teams out of the 15 from each conference that will make the post season…

    they fucked us on the shitty team bonus for getting good lotto picks, what in the hell would we be waiting for?

    the point of the team building process is to acquire talent through: the draft, free agency, trades…acquire the “right” talent, draft less terrible players – let’s get in the game…

    geo: most impatient fan ever :)

  37. ess-dog: You’re right. Talented two-way wing players are a terrible idea for the future. A 90s-style dunking big who is a ghost on defense and a point guard that can’t pass definitely make more sense.

    Tell me which player out of Desmond Bane, Tyrese Halliburton, and Christian Wood is the talented two-way wing again? Also, don’t assume that just because Isola reported that Houston could have gotten Wood for $27M that the Knicks could have. Houston was a WC semi finalist that has no front court depth and no state income tax. We are the Knicks.

  38. ess-dog:
    We really need a point guard and a 3&D swingman.

    It’s almost as if we should’ve drafted Haliburton and Bane and signed Wood, huh?

    I agree we need a good point guard, but we have Quickly and Knox as potential 3 and D players.

  39. Z-man: Agreed but the difference is that Randle at his best is actually good and he’s still unwatchable. DSjr is a terrible player.

    Honestly, if year 4 DSJr is closer to year 2 DSJr I’ll take that guy over Julius Randle. That guy got into the teeth of the defense and ran the pick and roll.

  40. Maybe Rose seeing teams grossly overpay his clients in the first couple days of free agency has thought him to be patient and let this crazy spending spree play out. There is always great deals left once the dust settles.

  41. Is Indiana’s cap situation so bad that they have to do a sign and trade with Boston to get Hayward? Could they not ship a contract or two to the Knicks and just sign Hayward then?

  42. Maybe Rose seeing teams grossly overpay his clients in the first couple days of free agency has thought him to be patient and let this crazy spending spree play out. There is always great deals left once the dust settles.

    fvv and teague are both still available…i’m not sure how much better fvv will make his teammate and i never, ever, ever thought i’d be dreaming of watching jeff teague run the point in blue and orange, but damn – too too many years of no hope for a point guard is tough, it’s one of the reasons i wrongly put so much hope in derrick rose years ago…

  43. Woj:

    Free agent forward Davis Bertans has agreed to a 5-year, $80M deal to return to the Washington Wizards, his agent @ArtursKalnitis tells ESPN. Deal includes an ETO after fourth year. One of biggest deals ever for a European-based agent in NBA.

  44. Alec Burks for 1/$6M is objectively very good value. Kinda pointless if we don’t flip him, but worth doing I guess.

  45. Honestly, if year 4 DSJr is closer to year 2 DSJr I’ll take that guy over Julius Randle. That guy got into the teeth of the defense and ran the pick and roll.

    call me crazy, but, i really thought there were times last year when DSjr was really trying on defense, and looked really good getting to the rim and setting up his teammates…i keep hoping that maybe he was just immature and he’ll wisen up a bit and be a decent ball player…for sure he needs to get in better shape…

  46. I’m fine with signing a bunch of scrubs to short term deals again, but are we only signing guys who are personally connected to people in the front office?

  47. Alec Burks is a headscratcher. Continues our trend of hiring guys we have personal connections to?

    Pretty random even if he and Perrin are tight.

    And Jeremi Grant to Pistons for 60 millinon. What in the hell?

    They must know something about Wood.

  48. Burks put together a decent year last year. But that’s his best year. Just looking at his boxscore numbers he’s been below average otherwise.

    $6M deal doesn’t hurt much and gives us wing depth. Plus he can pass a little and rebound. His game is similar to RJ’s a bit, but you hope RJ outplays him longterm.

  49. 6 million for a below average but playable wing guy is fine. Pointless in a lot of ways, but we do need people on the roster, and if he shoots well for half a year we can ship him out at the deadline.

  50. I’d guess if RJ or Bullock flatline again, Burks is there as a replacement. Again, Burks played decently last year

  51. the bright side to burks is like bullock he is a shooter on a cheap deal that could be very tradeable at the deadline. hello round 2, 2023.

  52. the only things that makes sense with detroit signing 11 bigs and going over the cap is they maybe have a trade partner for blake? how about make it someone else?

  53. Burks TS% has fluctuated, but he’s always been a decent three point shooter, so that’s one year at $6 million for actual shooting, That sounds like a good deal. If you look at the way our roster is taking place everybody except our point guards and centers are good shooters and our centers, Robinson and Davis, can both defend. That’s kind of the way NBA teams are supposed to be built in this era, except for our point guards. And I wouldn’t be surprised if Ntilikina shows he can hit open threes this season.

  54. Woj reports Wood is officially signed to HOU for 3yrs @ $41M total. Makes a lot more sense. Probably not worth beating that number if you’re the Knicks.

  55. 3 years, $41M for Wood from Houston. Still a good contract but way more than what Isola reported.

  56. Some reports saying Wood to HOU is going to end up part of Ariza trade.

    Also, Plumlee & Grant’s salaries are just enough to make a Blake Griffen S&T work. But no confirmation yet

  57. Yeah, that’s a normal contract at least. Phew.

    And so Houston is just going to call Harden’s bluff, right? Why else would you sign Wood if you didn’t plan on pseudo-contending this year?

  58. the pistons are stretching dedmon. this is their ben gordon villaneuva shit all over again.

    That was one of the most hilarious offseasons by a team ever.

  59. So now the list is:
    Bogdan
    FVV
    Melton
    KCP

    and maybe one of:
    Noel
    Cauley-Stein
    Giles

    (just removed Derrick Jones)

    Also, isn’t Linsanity looking to come back?

  60. portland has added covington and d jones jr to their front court. that’s exactly the sort of tarantula shit they needed, nice job.

  61. Random personal fact, Alec Burks went to the University of Colorado at the same time I did. Never met or saw him though.

  62. So the Pistons are going to be:

    Rose/Hayes
    Mykhailiuk
    Grant
    Ariza/Bey
    Plumlee/Okafor/Bradley

    That’s…something. Not a good something, but something.

  63. I kinda like Burks and if you’re going to do the throwaway 1 year deals thing it makes exponentially more sense to do it with guards/wings than with bigs given the current composition of the trade market. If Burks has a decent first half he’ll be very tradable. I’m still not seeing the bigger picture here but we haven’t messed anything up too bad yet.

  64. I kinda like Burks and if you’re going to do the throwaway 1 year deals thing it makes exponentially more sense to do it with guards/wings than with bigs given the current composition of the trade market. If Burks has a decent first half he’ll be very tradable. I’m still not seeing the bigger picture here but we haven’t messed anything up too bad yet.

    Agreed on all counts. I don’t see the big picture yet, either, but Burks is at least a reasonable one-year signing.

  65. Also, isn’t Linsanity looking to come back?

    Wouldn’t he just make so much sense as a second or third point guard on a contender? Like the Clippers, per se.

  66. This is maybe the most active transaction day ever, no? I mean, Detroit made like 10 transactions by themselves!

  67. I mean you could view Burks as replacing Ellington, which means the Knicks save $1M ($6M salary+$1M for Ellington waiver) and got a better more versatile player. Not that beating out Ellington is much of a win.

  68. Early Bird:
    Random personal fact, Alec Burks went to the University of Colorado at the same time I did. Never met or saw him though.

    nor would u remember it if u did stoner

  69. This is maybe the most active transaction day ever, no? I mean, Detroit made like 10 transactions by themselves!

    By squeezing the offseason into fewer days, we get crazy shit like today.

  70. Shams:

    As Rockets/Wizards talks on Russell Westbrook-for-John Wall stall, Wall has made it clear he wants trade out of Washington to happen, sources tell @TheAthleticNBA @Stadium.

    Good luck with that, Mr. Wall.

  71. John Hollinger tweeted that the Grant/Plumlee contracts are exactly the amount needed to sign and trade for Blake. . .he’s probably washed, but if he’s got anything in the tank that’s the best passing 4/5 combo in NBA history.

  72. Z-man: nor would u remember it if u did stoner

    Hey, that was several years before weed was legalized in Colorado. But also, yeah probably

  73. John Wall is seeking a trade. I’m seeking free sex with a supermodel. (please don’t tell my wife!) Which will happen first?

  74. Brian Cronin:
    So the Pistons are going to be:

    Rose/Hayes
    Mykhailiuk
    Grant
    Ariza/Bey
    Plumlee/Okafor/Bradley

    That’s…something. Not a good something, but something.

    Pretty sure we’ve at least locked up not being the laughingstock team this year. This is going to be the new go-to anytime someone is trying to refute the idea that NBA teams generally know what they’re doing, right?

  75. If this Wall-for-Westbrook thing materializes, there’ll be little potential damage left for this offseason!

  76. Early Bird: Hey, that was several years before weed was legalized in Colorado. But also, yeah probably

    Dude, I went to 8 years of college in NYS and hardly remember any of it

  77. John Wall’s trade request probably went something like this:

    Wall: This isn’t working out anymore. I’d like to be traded.

    Tommy Shepherd: Me too bro. Me. Too.

  78. Money is flying off the board. Knicks waiting it out. Watch them sign Elfrid back for $4M.

  79. This restraint is literally killing me. I fear that I’m going to wake up tomorrow and learn we traded 3 #1 picks and RJ for John Wall.

  80. Z-man: Dude, I went to 8 years of college in NYS and hardly remember any of it

    We used to have the largest 4/20 gathering in the world. Boulder has 300 days of sun, but it was always cloudy over Boulder and only Boulder that day.

    Campus administration decided they didn’t want the party school reputation anymore. They decided to put some chemical that gave off a dead fish smell on the quad. I heard a number of people still showed up, but I’d guess its not the same anymore.

  81. John Hollinger tweeted that the Grant/Plumlee contracts are exactly the amount needed to sign and trade for Blake. . .he’s probably washed, but if he’s got anything in the tank that’s the best passing 4/5 combo in NBA history.

    If they pull that off, then their whole night made a ton more sense. A team actively targeting another team’s frontcourt free agents to try to force them into trading for their washed up superstar power forward in a sign and trade? That’d be next level shit right there.

  82. There is no player quite as Knicksy as post injury 30 year old John Wall, but that contract is the worst in the NBA and Windhorst reported the Knicks are being patient due to the 2021 draft and free agent class being superior to this year’s class.

    The William Wesley connection is there but I don’t think that’s enough.

  83. By my count, we have about $30M in cap space and three open roster spots. I don’t really see us making a splashy deal now. I just expect we will fill out the roster with low cost deals. So I think the Big picture is we will have a low cost team with lots of young players, reasonable defense and three point shooting that’s pretty good. We don’t have to spend all our space. We can always keep it and see what comes available during the season. I’m not unhappy with this picture.

  84. Early Bird: We used to have the largest 4/20 gathering in the world. Boulder has 300 days of sun, but it was always cloudy over Boulder and only Boulder that day.

    Campus administration decided they didn’t want the party school reputation anymore. They decided to put some chemical that gave off a dead fish smell on the quad. I heard a number of people still showed up, but I’d guess its not the same anymore.

    That’s funny! The drinking age was 18 back in my day and there were no campus police on our big rural campus, so we could walk around doing anything, any time. 4/20 wasn’t born yet, but it kinda felt more legal then than id does now. NY is so stupid.

  85. Macri seems convinced we’ll end up with Augustin. I’d be happy without any major moves and the Knicks just running different mercs out there.

  86. I’m confused about the references to sign and trade for Blake. I thought Blake Griffin already played for the Pistons. How are they going to sign and trade for him with themselves?

  87. Knick fan not in NJ:
    By my count, we have about $30M in cap space and three open roster spots. I don’t really see us making a splashy deal now. I just expect we will fill out the roster with low cost deals.So I think the Big picture is we will have a low cost team with lots of young players, reasonable defense and three point shooting that’s pretty good. We don’t have to spend all our space.We can always keep it and see what comes available during the season. I’m not unhappy with this picture.

    I’m not so sure…maybe we blow it in trades rather than FA signings. But that could just be PTSD talking.

  88. Knick fan not in NJ:
    I’m confused about the references to sign and trade for Blake.I thought Blake Griffin already played for the Pistons.How are they going to sign and trade for him with themselves?

    Denver can re-sign Plumlee & Grant and then send them to the Pistons in exchange for Griffen.

  89. Brian Cronin: If they pull that off, then their whole night made a ton more sense. A team actively targeting another team’s frontcourt free agents to try to force them into trading for their washed up superstar power forward in a sign and trade? That’d be next level shit right there.

    But aren’t the grant and plumlee deals combined worse than Blake’s deal? Blake has 2/75 left basically and was still all-nba two years ago. Grant and plumlee now have 3/85 combined and grant is a fine starter and plumlee is a bad backup C. Id rather have Blake I think.

  90. Z-man: Oh sorry, I thought it implied he was a RFA…

    Jerami Grant is actually batshit crazy to leave Denver, but I guess they want to start Porter Jr so he left.

  91. Grocer: I thought you can’t sign and trade someone who has an offer?

    I’m not at all sure what happened. I think Grant was a UFA, the tweeting has been not terribly clear. I think DEN offered to match the deal, not as a RFA but just offering him the same money.

  92. Jerami Grant is actually batshit crazy to leave Denver, but I guess they want to start Porter Jr so he left.

    Yeah, he’s sadly going to be, like, the #1 scoring option in Detroit, right? Or #2 after Rose? I guess Grant knows that pointz will get him an even bigger contract later on and/or good teams will try to acquire him later on anyways.

  93. But aren’t the grant and plumlee deals combined worse than Blake’s deal? Blake has 2/75 left basically and was still all-nba two years ago. Grant and plumlee now have 3/85 combined and grant is a fine starter and plumlee is a bad backup C. Id rather have Blake I think.

    I think both Grant and Plumlee could easily be flipped. The Nuggets literally offered Grant the same money to stay! Blake’s not so easy.

  94. if morris doesn’t back out of that spurs deal he’s making $10m last year instead of $15m and locked into $10m this year instead of signing the big one

  95. I’m not at all sure what happened. I think Grant was a UFA, the tweeting has been not terribly clear. I think DEN offered to match the deal, not as a RFA but just offering him the same money.

    That’s it exactly. And he preferred being the default star for the Pistons.

  96. After losing Harrell, the Clippers really can’t let Morris or anyone else walk so maybe they decided to make him the godfather offer. But sheesh.

    They’re over the cap, so maybe it doesn’t make much difference. But wow did he cash in compared to last year when no one wanted him.

  97. if morris doesn’t back out of that spurs deal he’s making $10m last year instead of $15m and locked into $10m this year instead of signing the big one

    Definitely a minor stain on Rich Paul’s record.

  98. Also re: Blake Griffen, the deals can’t be signed until Sunday at noon ET. So I assume they could restructure the Plumlee & Grant signings into a S&T for Griffen if both sides want to.

  99. it seems odd that montrezl and meyers leonard will get the same paycheck. and you wonder why mitch is shooting 3s all summer.

  100. ptmilo:
    it seems odd that montrezl and meyers leonard will get the same paycheck.and you wonder why mitch is shooting 3s all summer.

    Mitch as a 3-pt threat is scary. Probably a mirage though.

  101. I wish I had everyone posting here try to predict what the salaries guys were going to get would be before tonight.

    Dolan’s thinking his team is playing in an empty arena and decided to save every penny.

  102. Didn’t tonight feel like the first night of a team that isn’t planning to try to win 39 games in 2021? I’m all for that, by the way, just noting that that is what this felt like.

  103. Didn’t tonight feel like the first night of a team that isn’t planning to try to win 39 games in 2021? I’m all for that, by the way, just noting that that is what this felt like.

    Yeah. It’s weird. I’m not used to it. I still think The Move is right around the corner, but maybe this time I’m finally wrong.

  104. Stein:

    The Knicks remain in the Hayward hunt with salary-cap space, league sources say, but have held firm on lower figures than Indiana’s

    Hayward has a huge admirer in Tom Thibodeau and the Knicks, I’m told, have shown some willingness tonight to go beyond an initial two-year offer

  105. I would imagine that the Knicks stuff, from Hayward’s angle, is really designed to push the Celtics to lower their ask from Indiana for him, right?

  106. there’s still plenty of time to do something incredibly dumb… and all the rumors suggest that we are trying our hardest to do it….

  107. DJPHAN you are quite the loser. You try so hard to be edgy but you fail miserably you are definitely no face humper

  108. More picks heading to OKC (2023 first rounder, meh. It’s all about the 2023 second rounders, Presti, get with it)

  109. Ariza’s 4 trades this week make him the most traded player in nba history, dethroning Chris Gatling. He’s up to 11 now and counting (he’s only 34, what?!)

  110. How is it that Harrell is only getting 9.5×2 and going to the Lakers? He’s a really good player! How did the market pass on him? How did the Knicks?

  111. How is it that Harrell is only getting 9.5×2 and going to the Lakers? He’s a really good player! How did the market pass on him? How did the Knicks?

    They literally couldn’t keep him on the court during the playoffs because he was so much of a liability against Jokic and Plumlee (Plumlee!). He’s an undersized center who can’t shoot threes. It’s perhaps the most outdated type of player in the NBA.

  112. Thanks, Brian. Wow, that’s extreme. The numbers are good and he passes the eye test, from what I saw of him. I guess Davis would cover the Jokic type player for him on the Lakers. It seems like a great bargain signing for them.

  113. JaMychal Green a good guy for the Nuggets to get to rebuild some of their frontcourt.

    I think we’ll see more George at the 3 this season. Kennard was huge for them in that regard. Now they have PatBev/Kennard/Lou for the frontcourt and George/Kawhi/Morris for the forward spots and Zubac for the middle. They probably still need a legit backup center, though. Trevor Noah ain’t gonna cut it.

    The Clippers haven’t been as active as other teams, but I think they’re still in decent shape.

  114. With the Pellies getting Adams, their team is, what?

    Ball/Bledsoe/Lewis
    Redick/Hill
    Ingram/Redick
    Zion
    Adams/Hayes

    I think Ingram is better at the 4, but it is what it is.

    They should really trade some of that point guard depth for another forward. Redick at the three is a bit of a stretch.

  115. Thanks, Brian. Wow, that’s extreme. The numbers are good and he passes the eye test, from what I saw of him. I guess Davis would cover the Jokic type player for him on the Lakers. It seems like a great bargain signing for them.

    I love Harrell, but he’s just a very limited player. He’s really good at being that limited player, though, so yes, I think he’ll be an upgrade over Dwight Howard for the Lakers and allow Davis to not have to start at the 5 (which Davis hates), but then during the playoffs, Davis can get the tough 5s when needed.

  116. I don’t get why the Jazz are so into Jordan Clarkson. He’s fine, but he’s just kind of there, right?

  117. Wow, Adams to the Pels. How did I miss that? ThT go down in the middle of the night.

    That’s a great piece to put next to Zion.

    Crazy action overall. Most active NBA day I can remember.

  118. Brian Cronin:
    With the Pellies getting Adams, their team is, what?

    Ball/Bledsoe/Lewis
    Redick/Hill
    Ingram/Redick
    Zion
    Adams/Hayes

    I think Ingram is better at the 4, but it is what it is.

    They should really trade some of that point guard depth for another forward. Redick at the three is a bit of a stretch.

    Knicks should poke around and see if they can get Bledsoe for Randle.

  119. Z-man:
    Why doesn’t Indiana trade Turner into our cap space with a pick attached and then sign Hayward?

    They’re like 20M over the cap now that Sabonis’ extension kicked in – they’d need to give up another player or two to sign him outright

  120. Not sure I like the Adams fit in NO although he’ll definitely help their defense. They should want to play fast fast fast and it’s hard to see Adams keeping up.

    RE: our sad sack team – assuming this Hayward thing is not happening, it seems likely we’re headed towards either Jeff Teague or DJ Augustin.

  121. Frank:
    Not sure I like the Adams fit in NO although he’ll definitely help their defense. They should want to play fast fast fast and it’s hard to see Adams keeping up.

    RE: our sad sack team – assuming this Hayward thing is not happening, it seems likely we’re headed towards either Jeff Teague or DJ Augustin.

    Would be shrewd of them to bring back Payton at a cheaper price. I don’t see anyone available who’s clearly better than him.

  122. Although it’s not entirely clear what the plan is, it’s clear that the Rose administration has a plan. It seems to include:
    -no overpays for tier 2/3 FAs
    -availability to take on contracts for assets
    -possibility that the 2021 season is gonna be tank fest
    -if something interesting involving tier 1 players pops up then the team has assets and flexibility

    That’s what it feels like. If so, yay! Right??

  123. Igno-Bot 3000: They’re like 20M over the cap now that Sabonis’ extension kicked in – they’d need to give up another player or two to sign him outright

    The point is, why not dump salary to other teams rather than deal with the Celts?

  124. cgreene:
    Although it’s not entirely clear what the plan is, it’s clear that the Rose administration has a plan. It seems to include:
    -no overpays for tier 2/3 FAs
    -availability to take on contracts for assets
    -possibility that the 2021 season is gonna be tank fest
    -if something interesting involving tier 1 players pops up then the team has assets and flexibility

    That’s what it feels like. If so, yay! Right??

    So far so good!

  125. cgreene:
    Although it’s not entirely clear what the plan is, it’s clear that the Rose administration has a plan. It seems to include:
    -no overpays for tier 2/3 FAs
    -availability to take on contracts for assets
    -possibility that the 2021 season is gonna be tank fest
    -if something interesting involving tier 1 players pops up then the team has assets and flexibility

    That’s what it feels like. If so, yay! Right??

    Seems like the most extreme outcomes at this point could be:
    -take on Westbrook without giving up anything of value
    -overpay FVV but all signs point to Toronto
    -backdoor into Hayward

  126. So far the Knicks are doing what they always do. They are replacing several meaningless interchangeable parts with a set of new meaningless interchangeable parts. They will get buried again and we’ll be having the same discussions about ping pong balls, the 8th, 9th or 10th seed, which quality free agents we don’t want to sign because we’d be overpaying a little, and which tier 1 free agents refuse to come to a terrible team. The 2026 pot luck lottery rebuild plan remains on course. Let’s just hope we get lucky before RJ and Robinson get tired of losing and want out.

    Speaking of rebuilds, I wouldn’t know whether to celebrate, laugh, or cry if I was a Thunder fan. With all the picks they’ve accumulated, they have a chance to be great in 2030. The only problem is that at some point Shai Gilgeous-Alexander is going to get sick of all the losing and want to leave. If they can somehow convince him to stick it out and stay, just as their other stars are starting to peak and want max extensions the Thunder won’t pay them all. So 1 or more keys pieces will leave. They might as well start rolling some of those picks further out into the future to they are in a good position for the 2035 rebuild too.

  127. Yeah, so far, Rose has been patient and has held firm to numbers. That he wanted to sign Hayward isn’t optimal, but he also reportedly has a number he won’t rise above to sign him, or Wood, or anybody else. He’s being opportunistic.

    We currently have the most open cap space of anybody, which either leaves lots of room for opportunistic deals like the Davis one, or lots of room to do something stupid if Rose gets upset that we’re left without a chair when the music stops.

  128. I wonder if we’d be doing anything differently if we weren’t wasting 6.4m per year on the crazy Noah stretch move that was part of the plan that helped us land Bobby Portis, Wayne Ellington, Taj Gibson and Elfrid Payton.

  129. It also seems like Leon really knows what’s going on in terms of his sources. He knows he’s not in on the Hayward deal so he’s not throwing stupid money. He knows Houston isn’t getting offers for Russ so he’s not throwing in assets. I think that’s probably an overlooked importance aspect of the job and allows you to avoid critical mistakes.

  130. RE: our sad sack team – assuming this Hayward thing is not happening, it seems likely we’re headed towards either Jeff Teague or DJ Augustin.

    Would be shrewd of them to bring back Payton at a cheaper price. I don’t see anyone available who’s clearly better than him.

    I kind of feel the seem way about it. Unless they pull a rabbit out of the hat, we aren’t going to be any good next year anyway, better coaching or not. If those other guys are better than Payton overall, it’s not by a lot. Payton is at least younger. There’s always a possibility his shot improves a little and he winds up being better and cheaper.

  131. Hollinger has come up with a stats based system for evaluating free agent value called BORD$. It uses a mixture of stats from recent years (PIPM, Raptor and PER) plus factors like age, number of minutes expected to be played, number of games expected to be played and league wide salary dollars available, to estimate a player’s free agent value for the coming season. He describes the methodology in detail if you are curious and have a subscription to the Athletic. I thinks it’s an imperfect but useful system. Player values depend on circumstance as well as performance and there’s no way to capture that. For example Paul George was worth more to the Clippers than anyone else, because it meant they also got Kawhi. It might actually under value players because it uses the leaguewide salary cap dollars available divided by overall total league performance to estimate performance value. Most teams are over the cap, and teams will continually find ways to go over the cap, so total practical dollars available for salaries is larger than the figure he used.

    So I looked at the estimates of free agent point guard salaries. Who is third? None other than Eldrid Peyton:

    Elfrid Payton — $11,972,859

    Payton had a lightly-guaranteed deal for $8 million this year, until Thursday. But the Knicks surprisingly waived him before free agency began, despite the fact that he’s 26 and comes off a pretty solid season. He immediately becomes one of the better values at the point guard position, although his shaky shooting keeps him out of the upper tiers. Payton averaged 12.6 assists and 2.7 steals per 100 possessions last season, with more than three dimes for every turnover, and his intensity on defense has finally started to catch up to his size and physical tools.

    Apparently he was underpaid by the Knicks. If you are curious the number one valued free agent point guard was FVV, $22M and number two was Mike Conley, $13M.

  132. Z-man: The point is, why not dump salary to other teams rather than deal with the Celts?

    They could technically only trade Turner to the Celts in a S+T, whereas if they wanted to sign him outright they’d have to trade Turner + another 20M (either Oladipo or some combination of Warren/Lamb/Holiday) out. Celtics have all the leverage and are trying to milk it, though it could be an interesting development if it blows up some of these Pacers players become available (or, and maybe this is magical thinking, we just sign Hayward and trade him to the Pacers later this year a la the Warriors signing D’Angelo last year with the full intention that they knew how badly the Wolves wanted him).

  133. Igno-Bot 3000: They could technically only trade Turner to the Celts in a S+T, whereas if they wanted to sign him outright they’d have to trade Turner + another 20M (either Oladipo or some combination of Warren/Lamb/Holiday) out. Celtics have all the leverage and are trying to milk it, though it could be an interesting development if it blows up some of these Pacers players become available (or, and maybe this is magical thinking, we just sign Hayward and trade him to the Pacers later this year a la the Warriors signing D’Angelo last year with the full intention that they knew how badly the Wolves wanted him).

    That would be a shrewd move…but it couldn’t happen right away and there’s the risk of Hayward getting injured in the interim, right?

  134. ptmilo:
    yeah owen that’s not true bc we only have the room which is below $6 million.

    According to Popper, if we make a deal and go over the cap we can sign Burks to the cap exception….is that not true?

  135. So I looked at the estimates of free agent point guard salaries. Who is third? None other than Eldrid Peyton:

    Elfrid Payton — $11,972,859

    Payton has had his career and development interrupted by injuries several times over the last few years. I have no idea why we aren’t keeping him unless we know we can get a clearly better player at PG. Even we kept him and then got someone better, we could easily trade him at that price. Yeah, I know he was inefficient last year and can’t hits 3s, but that entire Knicks team from last year deserves an asterisk next to the season’s stats. It was the most poorly constructed basketball team in all human history. When he’s healthy he’s a pretty good player and he’s still only 25-26. It’s not impossible he can still improve his 3 point shot and certainly his FT% from last year. Then he’s a damn good player and a big bargain.

  136. i believe they could regain the mid level only if they made enough $$ trades to put themselves over the cap excluding all free agent signings

  137. Deeefense: Payton has had his career and development interrupted by injuries several times over the last few years. I have no idea why we aren’t keeping him unless we know we can get a clearly better player at PG.Even we kept him and then got someone better, we could easily trade him at that price. Yeah, I know he was inefficient last year and can’t hits 3s, but that entire Knicks team from last year deserves an asterisk next to the season’s stats. It was the most poorly constructed basketball team in all human history.When he’s healthy he’s a pretty good player and he’s still only 25-26.It’s not impossible he can still improve his 3 point shot and certainly his FT% from last year. Then he’s a damn good player and a big bargain.

    I’d rather run Frank, DSjr, Quickley, Harper, Powell and whatever fringe roster guys fall from the waiver wire out there. For once, let’s give the young guys a chance to play. We need to find out which guys are keepers and which are pretenders.

    What’s ironic here is that Strat has always bitched about our FO and coaches not knowing basketball, and if only they used Frank correctly, yadayada. Well Thibs definitely knows basketball and is going to separate the players from the pretenders. Clearly Mitch, RJ and Frank are his kind of players. Obi is a lock to play a lot. Everybody else is auditioning for next year. Rose’s job is to continue making moves that add value without distracting from the long-term rebuild plan, starting with developing young players. Burks doesn’t get in the way of that…we’re short on shooting small wings and he and Bullock are on value contracts that can fetch an. asset at the deadline. Ed Davis came with assets and is the perfect backup for Mitch. Payton is fine value but he gets in the way.

  138. ptmilo:
    i believe they could regain the mid level only if they made enough $$ trades to put themselves over the cap excluding all free agent signings

    So technically Popper is right, but it would be dumb to get there…like by trading for Russ and signing Hayward outright…

  139. actually there may be one other possibility — to turn burks into a sign and trade with the sixers. but that doesn’t seem too likely i don’t they had bird rights on him

  140. ***He immediately becomes one of the better values at the point guard position, although his shaky shooting keeps him out of the upper tiers.***

    I feel that when your are 25 years old, and you’ve already played for 5 different teams, the writing is on the wall, and you’re maybe not worth as much as your numbers might say you are. He got tons of playing time in Orlando, and played well, and Orlando still was like “no thanks”, even though they had nobody behind him on the depth chart. And him not sticking in PHX, NO, or NY kind of validates that. Maybe that makes him undervalued, but it seems like everywhere he goes he’s always just kind of “in the way”.

  141. I think you are wrong…Adams is on an expiring deal and is very good at what he does. That makes twice you are wrong in the same thread, dementia is a bitch.

  142. am i wrong that consensus has been that okc would have to pay, not get, picks for adams?

    I never got that impression. I think there was always a market for him, they just didn’t want to get rid of him just yet.

  143. I’d rather run Frank, DSjr, Quickley, Harper, Powell and whatever fringe roster guys fall from the waiver wire out there. For once, let’s give the young guys a chance to play. We need to find out which guys are keepers and which are pretenders.

    What’s ironic here is that Strat has always bitched about our FO and coaches not knowing basketball, and if only they used Frank correctly, yadayada. Well Thibs definitely knows basketball and is going to separate the players from the pretenders. Clearly Mitch, RJ and Frank are his kind of players. Obi is a lock to play a lot. Everybody else is auditioning for next year. Rose’s job is to continue making moves that add value without distracting from the long-term rebuild plan, starting with developing young players. Burks doesn’t get in the way of that…we’re short on shooting small wings and he and Bullock are on value contracts that can fetch an. asset at the deadline. Ed Davis came with assets and is the perfect backup for Mitch. Payton is fine value but he gets in the way.

    I’d love for that to be what they do. One of the reasons I balked at Thibs was that I didn’t think he’d be interested in coaching the Knicks if they went this route, so I feared signing him would mean they wouldn’t do this, but if he’s down with this approach, I’d love to see Thibs try to build the rookies up.

  144. I can’t believe that strat is criticizing Presti…OKC could rebuild any time they want just by trading some picks and drafting others.

  145. I really don’t get Popper’s position on this Burks’ thing. Burks signed for $6 million, right? The only notable exception that you get when you use up the rest of your cap room is the room exception, and that’s less than what Burks is making, right? Is the room $6 million now? If it is, then Popper is correct.

  146. So, another year where I stop watching basketball by New Years. Yes, I know, after about 4 games.
    The Nets will own NY by March.

  147. Payton is definitely good as a stop gap (there I’ve learned that term too!) but i feel not so great about his temper/character. Looks like a super cool guy but remember him going psycho last season and grabbing a few techs that “scared me”.
    I lost my trust on him after these psycho incidents/remember it close to the birth of his child-probably had less sleep(?) idk…
    I won’t miss him

  148. no the room isn’t $6m, it’s just under $5m. i think the popper argument is you can trade for, say, westbrook and operate like an over the cap team and regain your full mid level.

  149. no the room isn’t $6m, it’s just under $5m. i think the popper argument is you can trade for, say, westbrook and operate like an over the cap team and regain your full mid level.

    But that wouldn’t give you $35 million in cap room, right? I think he legit thinks that the room is $6 million.

  150. Brian Cronin: I’d love for that to be what they do. One of the reasons I balked at Thibs was that I didn’t think he’d be interested in coaching the Knicks if they went this route, so I feared signing him would mean they wouldn’t do this, but if he’s down with this approach, I’d love to see Thibs try to build the rookies up.

    It’s the combo of Thibs and developmental coaches that is intriguing. It feels like a logical assembly line approach…acquisition, development, evaluation…”hey you guys try to develop the guys we have and acquire and I’ll see if they actually improve enough to be worth keeping.” I’m really interested in getting Thibs’ read on Randle, Frank, Knox, DSjr, Iggy, Harper, Pinson, Quickley, etc. Clearly he is gonna bust their chops and bench whoever deserves to be benched. Miller started to hold guys accountable but Thibs has so much more cache…

  151. But that wouldn’t give you $35 million in cap room, right? I think he legit thinks that the room is $6 million

    yes he was clearly wrong the way he phrased it, but you can give him a friendly read where his point about fitting burks into an exception stands

  152. I’m like 95% confident Popper is wrong. He thinks we can use the MLE, which we can’t since we started FA under the cap.

    I don’t know the exact trigger for losing the MLE, but I do know we lose our MLE as soon as we sign a player into cap space. Basically we’d need to acquire $35M in trades. And I suspect we lost the MLE as soon as FA started, so even that wouldn’t do it.

  153. Brian Cronin: But that wouldn’t give you $35 million in cap room, right? I think he legit thinks that the room is $6 million.

    I suppose he’s implying that there is flexibility to make deals beyond the strict $29 million w/o sign and trades, but yes, they’d be over the cap, so technically the $29 mill figure is correct.

  154. Early Bird:
    I’m like 95% confident Popper is wrong. He thinks we can use the MLE, which we can’t since we started FA under the cap.

    He specifically said the cap exception, which I believe is like $9 million once you go over. That’s the only reason he said you’d have to wait to do the Burks deal, right?

  155. Z-man: He specifically said the cap exception, which I believe is like $9 million once you go over. That’s the only reason he said you’d have to wait to do the Burks deal, right?

    I read some articles to jog my memory. No, he definitely means the MLE, which is the $9 million exception. He’s just saying cap exception as a generic term for all exceptions.

    Anyways, we might have it if we absorb Westbrook or Hayward via trade and then made another trade to put us over. But if we sign FAs we lose it.

    Basically the only way to use an exception to sign Burks is by doing something dumb or restructuring his deal to fit the Room Exception

  156. Popper’s wrong in what he is thinking, but it could still be right if the Knicks signed Burks to the room exception for two years/$9.8 million, with just $1.2 million guaranteed for next year, so basically 1 year/$6 million.

  157. We can’t regain the full MLE because we renounced players and went under the cap. So even with trades into our space, pretty sure we can’t be an over the cap team now.

    But I just checked and I can’t add our payroll up to more than 74m – with Davis and Burks. That would still leave 35m – think I must be missing someone…

  158. Yeah, we lost the MLE as soon as FA started unless there’s some really weird exception buried in the CBA or because this year specifically was negotiated for (unlikely).

    We need to be over the cap prior to the MLE arising and at all times subsequent to the MLE arising.

  159. english_knick:
    We can’t regain the full MLE because we renounced players and went under the cap. So even with trades into our space, pretty sure we can’t be an over the cap team now.

    But I just checked and I can’t add our payroll up to more than 74m – with Davis and Burks. That would still leave 35m – think I must be missing someone…

    Did you count Joakim Noah?

  160. Yep. Everyone else seems to agree we had c40m before Davis and Burks though so I’m sure I’ve got something wrong…

  161. The Knicks have
    Mid-level Room Exception $4,767,000
    Trade Exception $3,988,766 for the Marcus Morris trade with LAC

  162. english_knick:
    Yep. Everyone else seems to agree we had c40m before Davis and Burks though so I’m sure I’ve got something wrong…

    The rookies also total about $6 million

  163. Re: Popper, it’s amazing how often professional NBA writers screw up cap details. It’s very hard to imagine there’s an implied “if they make enough trades to reach the cap” qualifier to that tweet.

    I’d feel better if we used the 33rd pick on Dotson or Jones, but hard to complain about the non-draft portion of the offseason so far. I still would’ve signed Wood because I think he’ll be an asset at that price, but Toppin makes the decision a little more complicated so it is what it is. Burks is exactly the kind of middle ground between “do nothing to give your core a coherent roster” and “sign a 31 year old player to the max solely to help your core” I was talking about yesterday. If he plays to the back of his basketball card he’s a virtual lock to be flippable for something at the deadline.

    It’s likely that between the offseason and the pre-deadline season there will be more salary dump opportunities. Keep that powder dry.

  164. Here’s my spreadsheet list of everyone we’re currently paying or will pay:

    Julius Randle
    Toppin
    Alec Burks
    Taj Gibson
    Elfrid Payton
    RJ Barrett
    Wayne Ellington
    Frank Ntilikina
    Dennis Smith
    Kevin Knox
    Reggie Bullock
    Quickley
    Ed Davis
    Mitchell Robinson
    Ignas Brazdeikis
    Harper
    Noah

  165. But I just checked and I can’t add our payroll up to more than 74m – with Davis and Burks. That would still leave 35m – think I must be missing someone…

    Did you add minimum roster charges?

  166. thenoblefacehumper: It’s very hard to imagine there’s an implied “if they make enough trades to reach the cap” qualifier to that tweet.

    That’s not even the rule, I checked the CBA Popper is straight up wrong. English Knicks is right, we lost it as soon as we went below the cap.

  167. Current salary situation:
    10 players*, $61,970,887 Dead cap $9,431,667 = Total $71,402,554
    Cap holds** $27,984,814

    * player count does not include Toppin or Quickly.
    ** cap hold includes $4,862,040 for Toppin

  168. The Raps seem to be holding firm at Brogdan money (4years, $85 mill). Seems like we might have him for 4 years, $96 mill unless Ujiri blinked. That would be at the extreme upper range of a reasonable deal for him. I would lean no on that, but given that they are in our conference and we’re the only team with the room to nab him, I could see forcing Toronto to overpay.

  169. See Spotrac for a full breakdown.
    Their practical cap space is $42M

    Mistake on the cap hold number above. It’s $30,679,744. I had left out the Incomplete Roster Charge

  170. I’d rather run Frank, DSjr, Quickley, Harper, Powell and whatever fringe roster guys fall from the waiver wire out there. For once, let’s give the young guys a chance to play. We need to find out which guys are keepers and which are pretenders.

    What’s ironic here is that Strat has always bitched about our FO and coaches not knowing basketball, and if only they used Frank correctly, yadayada. Well Thibs definitely knows basketball and is going to separate the players from the pretenders.

    My impression is that Thibs is looking for a pure PG and not trying to create a team with multiple playmakers that all move the ball and create plays as a team the way I prefer.

    If he uses Frank and Quickley correctly, neither is likely to be his traditional ball dominating PG. I suspect Harper or Powell won’t be the answer either. While Payton may not be the long term answer either, he’s the best of the bunch as a pure PG and still young enough to improve given that imo some of his ability has been masked by injury. I can think only 3 things. There’s someone we haven’t signed yet he likes better, he likes DSjr, or Payton should still be on the team. The other option would be that we let a bargain asset walk. In fact we may have either way.

  171. Portis to Milwaukee, thank god. Cautiously optimistic about Rose’s FA so far. Let’s see if it holds up.

  172. Deeefense: My impression is that Thibs is looking for a pure PG and not trying to create a team with multiple playmakers that all move the ball and create plays as a team the way I prefer.

    If he uses Frank and Quickley correctly, neither is likely to be his traditional ball dominating PG. I suspect Harper or Powell won’t be the answer either.While Payton may not be the long term answer either, he’s the best of the bunch as a pure PG and still young enough to improve given that imo some of his ability has been masked by injury.I can think only two things. There’s someone we haven’t signed yet he likes better or Payton should still be on the team. The 3rd option would be that we let a bargain asset walk,.

    I think you are assuming that the Bulls were his ideal team. I don’t sense that kind of offensive rigidity with him. I don’t think he’s married to a particular offensive system. He had Rose, so he maximized Rose’s value by letting him do what he does best, which is dominate the ball. He didn’t do that in Minny, and as an assistant coach he was part of teams that were highly successful without a ball-dominant scoring PG, e.g. Knicks, Celtics. He even talked at length about ball movement.

    Now he seemed to be behind the times re: 3-pt shot volume. That really has to change. But there is no evidence that he is a rigid “systems” coach who relies on a particular type of player. If he’s rigid anywhere, it’s on the defensive end.

  173. If they land Brogdan, I’ll be a happy camper even if they pay a small premium. IMO, that’s exactly what we should be doing to drag this team out of lottery hell and onto the map with 1st tier free agents. We need some solid real NBA players even if we have to pay a little extra. As long as they don’t go crazy and do stupid things like Detroit where they are paying premiums for players that aren’t even that good and may not even fit.

  174. It’s funny how we all agree Portis isn’t a terrible idea as a cheap bench guy, but if you’re going to be a cheap bench guy, it’s going to be on a contender.

  175. I think you are assuming that the Bulls were his ideal team. I don’t sense that kind of offensive rigidity with him. I don’t think he’s married to a particular offensive system.

    It wasn’t so much Thibs, as the team seems to be geared to the more modern style of play where the PG is the quarterback running a lot of P&R. I’m an old guy. Most of the best teams I’ve seen going all the way back to the 69 Knicks had a lot of player movement, ball movement, and multiple solid playmakers on the floor. There are some exceptions, but guys like Magic are hard to find., :-) The problem with the PG centric offense is that if you can stop that one guy and/or the P&R, the offense can really fall apart. That’s what often happens in the playoffs. If Thibs is more adaptable and open to movement and playmaking from multiple spots, I like him even more.

  176. Adrian Wojnarowski
    @wojespn
    Free agent F Moe Harkless has agreed to a one-year, $3.6M deal with the Miami Heat, sources tell ESPN.

    Good move for Riley and the Heat.

  177. It was Bullock. By my count we have 31.6m ‘true’ room factoring in holds etc, plus the room exception and the small traded player exception.

  178. Z-man: You mean FVV? Brogdan is not for sale, is he?

    I thought I read somewhere that Brogdan was available too.
    Forget it, I misread something. I’d be happy with FVV also and I don’t mind a small overpay, but don’t go crazy.

  179. Deeefense: The problem with the PG centric offense is that if you can stop that one guy and/or the P&R, the offense can really fall apart. That’s what often happens in the playoffs. If Thibs is more adaptable and open to movement and playmaking from multiple spots, I like him even more.

    But “stopping that one guy and/or the P&R” is no small feat. In fact, D’Antoni said that it is virtually impossible to stop. And he’s right, so long as it’s being run by the right players. That’s just a fact in today’s NBA. He was the first one to figure out that running the high PnR to distort the defense, resulting in a dunk, easy look for the PG, or a kickout for an open 3 is a lethal combo. Now every team does it to some degree, and the Knicks have some components of that offense (Mitch and Obi) and just need the a) PG combo and b) 3-pt shooters to make it work. FVV would be a good part of that puzzle on both ends, except that he doesn’t finish well.

    But the traditional game as played in the 60’s-’90s is dead. If you play that way, you will lose more than you would have by modernizing.

  180. You’re probably thinking about Bogdan Bogdanovic, who is a restricted free agent. People might have been saying his name, Bogdan.

  181. Shams:

    Fred VanVleet has agreed to a four-year, $85M deal to re-sign with the Toronto Raptors, agent Brian Jungreis of @ParLay_SE told @TheAthleticNBA @Stadium.

  182. So…

    Teague
    Payton
    Jeremy Lin (?)
    Shane Larkin (?)

    At some point other teams won’t need PGs, but still

    2020: The year the Knicks finally unite Jeremy Lin & Carmelo Anthony!!!

  183. I’m so confused. Are we targeting Malcom Brogdon? Or Bogdan Bogdanovic? And if it’s the latter, which one? (Aren’ there two?)

  184. Deeefense: I thought I read somewhere that Brogdan was available too.
    Forget it, I misread something. I’d be happy with FVV also and I don’t mind a small overpay, but don’t go crazy.

    No, I meant that Toronto was standing firm at a Brogdan-level contract for FVV and the Knicks might be able to outbid them w/o going crazy.

  185. Ok, so no VanVleet.

    We have to sign someone. Maybe they are scouring the trade market instead?

    Aside from Westbrook, what players might be on the block where a team wouldn’t need picks back?

  186. The Knicks are tanking. No doubt about it. There’s not a single player on the roster that could start for a championship team. 50 years of misery.

  187. Brian Cronin:
    You’re probably thinking about Bogdan Bogdanovic, who is a restricted free agent. People might have been saying his name, Bogdan.

    That’s the second time I’ve done that. Thanks.

  188. I am betting that we learn that VanVleet turned down a 4/$100 from the Knicks because of a lack of supporting cast.

    I am 62 years old and am confident that I won’t ever see a Knick championship in my lifetime. At least I have 1973.

  189. ess-dog:
    Ok, so no VanVleet.

    We have to sign someone. Maybe they are scouring the trade market instead?

    Aside from Westbrook, what players might be on the block where a team wouldn’t need picks back?

    Sounds like they should keep the space open and monitor the situations in HOU/WAS. There will definitely be trades that happen this year that the Knicks can help facilitate. I like Payton and Shaq Harrison from Chicago could be an interesting value signing.

  190. “Z-man
    November 21, 2020 at 12:39 pm
    Probably a dodged bullet.”

    Sometimes when you jump out of the way of something, you end up in a worse situation… Like smashing your head into a Wall, or maybe falling into a freezing cold Brook.

  191. Z-man: But the traditional game as played in the 60’s-’90s is dead. If you play that way, you will lose more than you would have by modernizing.

    I’ll remind you that that Steph Curry is not a traditional PG and the Warriors split the playmaking between Steph and Green and then Steph, Green and Durant. The idea here is not that you can’t run P&R or that you shouldn’t shoot 3s. The game HAS changed. However, the idea is that you get way more high quality shots and it’s much harder to stop an offense with multiple guys moving and making plays than one guy running the whole show.

    The Spurs have also used that model and even the Cavs had James and Kyrie paired. If you go back further you have the triangle, the great Celtics teams, the great Blazer team with Walton, the Knicks etc.. Conceptually it’s all the same, but you tweak it to the rules and skills of the modern game.

  192. Z:
    “Z-man
    November 21, 2020 at 12:39 pm
    Probably a dodged bullet.”

    Sometimes when you jump out of the way of something, you end up in a worse situation… Like smashing your head into a Wall, or maybe falling into a freezing cold Brook.

    lol yeah but that’s better than a bullet…unless you fall into the freezing cold brook and bash your brains out on a rock…

    Is this your way of saying that the Russ train is steaming around the bend?

  193. Deeefense: I’ll remind you that that Steph Curry is not a traditional PG and the Warriors split the playmaking between Steph and Green and then Steph, Green and Durant.

    lol their offense was as PnR and 3-pt shooting heavy as any in the league. They sure didn’t run the Phil triangle, in fact, they were the origin of his “how’s it goink?” gem.

  194. VanVleet at 4/$85 is less than we were projecting him yesterday, which is weird because worse players are getting a lot more than projected. If he didn’t want NY, that’s fine. But if he could have been had for a little more, I think that’s a mistake.

  195. It sounds like he had no interest in coming here. Which meant Masai was bidding against himself. And unlike some past NY execs, Masai knows what to do in that situation.

  196. lol their offense was as PnR and 3-pt shooting as any in the league. They sure didn’t run the Phil triangle, in fact, they were the origin of his “how’s it goink?” gem.

    Their offense was based on ball movement, player movement, back cuts, and 2-3 playmakers on the court etc… They stole some of their actions from the Spurs and the triangle. The difference was they had several great 3 point shooters. So obviously it was correct to use them.

    What they didn’t do was give the ball to Steph, run the same P&R practically every time down, and go from there. That’s the offense that gets bogged down in the playoffs when you eventually run into a team that can slow down the PG. Then the offense gets gummed up. That could never happen to the Warriors because even if you slowed down Steph, Durant and/or Green ran the playmaking and there was so much movement of players and the ball, other guys got open. Granted we are talking about great players, but there are advantages to not having 1 playmaker run the show.

  197. Donnie Walsh:
    VanVleet at 4/$85 is less than we were projecting him yesterday, which is weird because worse players are getting a lot more than projected. If he didn’t want NY, that’s fine. But if he could have been had for a little more, I think that’s a mistake.

    Agreed, but the FO specifically said that they didn’t want to be used just to drive the price up. It’s likely that FVV would not have come here unless we significantly outbid Toronto. Another million or two a year wasn’t gonna get it done. And then he’s a bad move for this team. There will be other opportunities for a better player for 4years/$100m.

  198. If he didn’t want NY, that’s fine. But if he could have been had for a little more, I think that’s a mistake.

    Let’s be honest. He looked at our roster, started laughing, and tried to use us as leverage, but Masai is too smart to fall for another very good player using NY as leverage for more money.

    No one “very good” is going to come here until we are good enough to be competitive already as we are and they take us another step.

  199. Deeefense: The difference was they had several great 3 point shooters… we are talking about great players

    And that pretty much ends the conversation, doesn’t it? Let’s get the great players first and then worry about what kind of offense we run.

  200. Berman:

    Knicks really didn’t pursue Fred VanVleet in the end. Their intel had him a lock to return to Toronto. They also at this point are much aware about 2021 flexibility and not going to force anything and overpay.

    Like most of you, I am perfectly fine with this being a real player development year, now that we have a real player development staff. But we could definitely use a discount point guard signing of some sort, and may be another big or wing. Anybody have preferences from the remaining threeLike most of you, I am perfectly fine with this being a real player development year, now that we have a real player development staff. But we could definitely use a discount point guard signing of some sort, and may be another big or wing. Anybody have preferences from the remaining free agents? Or vets who might be available for trade?

  201. And that pretty much ends the conversation, doesn’t it? Let’s get the great players first and then worry about what kind of offense we run.

    I’ll get back to you in 2026. :-)

  202. It sure looks like we’re going to be very bad again.

    Fine by me. Play the kids. I’d take a flyer on Shane Larkin, try to pick up a couple of reclamation projects and just roll with that.

    Next year’s draft is supposed to be good, right?

  203. What about taking some chances on a couple younger players.

    Jordan McLaughlin
    John Konchar
    Harry Giles

    All three are young and have put up good numbers in small samples (Harry Giles sample a bit bigger). Any of them super cheap would be a good low-cost medium upside type move.

    Also I’m still banging the Noel and Larkin drum.

  204. I’d be fine with either of Payton or Larkin. Payton’s not amazing but he does PG stuff. I think I’d prefer Larkin, but I don’t mind running it back with Payton and the kids.

  205. Mike Honcho: I’d be fine with either of Payton or Larkin. Payton’s not amazing but he does PG stuff. I think I’d prefer Larkin, but I don’t mind running it back with Payton and the kids.

    Payton made the offense look not godawful, so he passes the test. He’ll almost certainly miss games again, so you’re looking at another stretch of “player development” for DSJr, Frank, Quickley, and any other player the Knicks think can run the point (Burks?)

  206. Also, so much for the theory that Hayward wanted to take less money to cement his standing as a star. He’ll definitely be The Guy in Charlotte, but not for a discount.

  207. Hayward to Charlotte is the exact type of “fuck you” I wanna see people give Danny Ainge more often.

    You could have had Myles Turner. Instead you have nothing.

  208. Ainge really bungled it. He could have had Turner for basically free but tried to play hardball and got nothing. How sad for him.

  209. I remember this exact type of conversation last year and the year before and the year before that.

    When do we admit that this strategy is a losing strategy? Do we need to wait for Giannis to spurn us?

  210. Probably a dodged bullet.

    Agreed, but I think he was more important to Toronto, so getting him at a Brogdon level while as an unrestricted free agent (unlike Brogdon) was still impressive.

  211. I’m not entirely sure the Knicks are a toxic organization and culture that no one wants to be in, but I am sure that a toxic organization and culture that no one wants to be in would look very much like the Knicks’ organization and culture looks like now.

  212. CHA needs to create ~$10M in cap space. Looking at you CHA 2023 second round picks.

    Update: CHA does not have a 2023 2nd round draft pick

  213. Since Charlotte needs to clear cap space for Hayward, a Rozier for Randle swap can’t happen which basically means we need that 1RP.

  214. Bobby Marks on Charlotte needing your create cap space for Hayward:

    They do have the $27.1M expiring contract of Nic Batum to waive and stretch.

    Not sure I would want a $9M cap hit over 3 seasons though.

    Might be worth throwing in a future 1 to see if NYK would bite on the money.

  215. Wow, yeah, Westbrook’s three years are probably a better deal than Hayward at 4/120. That’s an absurd contract.

  216. I’d be more than fine with a cheap PGuard.
    A Dinwiddieesque one.

    I’d love to put some good players in but not via overpaying at this moment.

    We’re looking good so far
    Young and ready for displeased big dogs

  217. Well, they can do Julius Randle for Batum and Monk. That would get them the room they need for Hayward.

  218. Macri spells it out well:

    If ever there were an opportunity to use Julius Randle in a productive way (I.e., not as LeBron James lite – cc: Coach Fiz) it would be to send him to Charlotte for Batum and Zeller in exchange for the Hornets VERY lightly protected 2021 first.

  219. It works if we trade Randle & DSJR for Batum, if we just want to dump those two.

    Otherwise we can just absorb Batum & a 1st into cap space.

  220. Yep, an unprotected or barely protected 1 should be the cost and the Knicks should hold firm. Charlotte is desperate.

  221. What’s the deal with John Collins? Does Trae not like him? Signing Gallo to go with Capela sure seems like Collins is the odd man out.

  222. The Knicks could be looking at Bogdonavic, as well. I really like that guy and he’s a true “you can trade him whenever you like” guy. It’d move RJ to the three, also.

  223. More 2023 picks please! If we bundle our seconds to get more 1sts to go with ours and Dallas we can land Bronny and his dad who def wants to spend his final season throwing lobs to his son in the Mecca. That’s Leon’s master plan. ?

  224. Getting a first from Charlotte for renting some cap space would be wonderful. It’s been a pretty decent offseason so far, though the long shadow of Westbrook still lingers.

    Moving Randle and/or DSJ also in a deal with Charlotte would be extra nice, but the priority should be a first rounder.

  225. Randle and Smith for Batum and a pick and then Bogdonivic could be done for $30 million, I bet. I doubt Sacramento matches $20 million.

  226. Brian Cronin:
    Randle and Smith for Batum and a pick and then Bogdonivic could be done for $30 million, I bet. I doubt Sacramento matches $20 million.

    Randle and Smith for Batum and a Pick!

    Has a nice ring to it.

  227. Frank O.:
    Never even a bridesmaid, let alone a bride.

    I quit the Jets.
    Knicks may be next.

    This.
    I still have the Yankees. They use winning philosophy.

  228. Crowder to the Suns for 3/$30 million. Whichever team gets him after the Suns cut him will get a good player.

    Avery Bradley to the Heat.

  229. bogdan is especially good at slow running the pnr to throw last second lobs. would be especially good with mitch or obi and mitigate not having a real point guard.

  230. If we get Bogdanovic, Batum and a first while let go Randle and DSJ I’ll go buy myself a SerboFrench champagne to celebrate it!

  231. Guys Charlotte needs to clear $10M. Batum is getting 27.1 million and Randle/Smith together is like $24M. Randle’s $19M for Batum and Monk clears that threshold. Batum and Zeller does it too. We can’t send them Randle and Smith Jr if they want $10M in space.

  232. The Glass Half Rebuilt:
    Guys Charlotte needs to clear $10M. Batum is getting 27.1 million and Randle/Smith together is like $24M. Randle’s $19M for Batum and Monk clears that threshold. Batum and Zeller does it too. We can’t send them Randle and Smith Jr if they want $10M in space.

    You’re right, I’m being dumb and mixed up who needed to add salary to make the deal work. Charlotte needs to add salary, not the Knicks.

  233. The Glass Half Rebuilt:
    Guys Charlotte needs to clear $10M. Batum is getting 27.1 million and Randle/Smith together is like $24M. Randle’s $19M for Batum and Monk clears that threshold. Batum and Zeller does it too. We can’t send them Randle and Smith Jr if they want $10M in space.

    Just what the Knicks need, 6 shooting guards and 0 point guards.

  234. Didn’t Bogdanovic sign an offer sheet with the Hawks? Or did that fall through also?

    I thought that that was still just a rumor. If so, then that sucks.

  235. If we take Batum into cap space without sending out players, we only have a ~$3.5 million for a PG.

    Edit: We’d also have $4.5M for the Room after we spend our cap money.

  236. By the way, gotta love the poll question now….

    If Gordon Hayward was available for 3 years/$70 million, would you want the Knicks to sign him?

  237. Danny Ainge could have gotten Myles Turner for FREE, and he overplayed his hand. Even if he gets something back from Charlotte, it won’t be nearly as good.

  238. Grocer:
    Who else has space?Does Boston now?

    Not really. I forget the exact numbers but losing Hayward puts them at or just under the cap. So they can’t realistically compete for any FAs above the minimum.

  239. Memphis locked down John Konchar. That’s too bad. He was intriguing. Really nice three point shot.

  240. Bummer. Charlotte is just going to stretch Batum rather than attach a sweetener to trade him.

    Any interest in him if he’s willing to sign a small contract to rebuild his value?

  241. Hollinger reporting, via local Charlotte reporter, the Hornets plan on stretching Batum rather than trading him.

    That’s a lot of dead space the next few years

  242. i know it’s fun to hate on ainge but it’s extremely possible that once charlotte went up to $120m the die was cast

  243. Bummer. Charlotte is just going to stretch Batum rather than attach a sweetener to trade him.

    Figured they had that in their backpocket when they announced Hayward so quickly. I just hoped they would change their minds (paying a guy almost $10 three years from now is nuts).

    Any interest in him if he’s willing to sign a small contract to rebuild his value?

    Sure, but I bet he’s definitely ending up on a contender for the minimum.

  244. Kind of a weird move on Charlotte’s part. I would think paying two seconds or something would be worth not having to pay Batum for the next three years. Also means you can basically tack on an extra $9M AAV to Hayward’s price tag over the next 3 years.

  245. I don’t know if Charlotte is still interested in Westbrook, or if Westbrook is still on the market, but Rozier/Zeller/Monk for Westbrook works.

    Honestly with how all-in Charlotte now is, I don’t see why they wouldn’t do that.

    Houston would have to take on an extra year of Rozier, but assuming (probably falsely) that the Knicks are out of the picture, it still might be the most painless way to trade Westbrook.

  246. “I am 62 years old and am confident that I won’t ever see a Knick championship in my lifetime. At least I have 1973.”

    I am 40 years old and am equally confident I won’t ever see a Knick championship in my lifetime. At least I have 1994 and 1999?

  247. I have a comment in moderation suggesting the Hornets trade Rozier/Zeller/Monk for Westbrook and weighing the pros and cons for both sides. I don’t know what word set it off but trying this again.

  248. thenoblefacehumper:
    I have a comment in moderation suggesting the Hornets trade Rozier/Zeller/Monk for Westbrook and weighing the pros and cons for both sides. I don’t know what word set it off but trying this again.

    I’m guessing it was the word painless- a word completely incompatible with this franchise for as long as Knickerblogger has been around.

  249. ***I have a comment in moderation suggesting the Hornets trade Rozier/Zeller/Monk for Westbrook and weighing the pros and cons for both sides. I don’t know what word set it off***

    Facehumper?

  250. #thenoblefacehumper:
    I have a comment in moderation suggesting the Hornets trade Rozier/Zeller/Monk for Westbrook and weighing the pros and cons for both sides. I don’t know what word set it off but trying this again.#

    Free Hong Kong ?

  251. thenoblefacehumper:
    I have a comment in moderation suggesting the Hornets trade Rozier/Zeller/Monk for Westbrook and weighing the pros and cons for both sides. I don’t know what word set it off but trying this again.

    the exact phrase “trade for Westbrook” or any combination of “trade” and “Westbrook” within 10 characters of each other?

  252. Facehumper?

    This issue has been litigated already!

    Pickings are slim, but some guys remaining who may be worth a look: Chris Boucher, Shaq Harrison, Juancho Hernangomez, Harry Giles, Chris Chiozza, Jordan McLaughlin

  253. Bogdan would be nice…

    Kevin O’Connor suggests that the Lakers are still trying to find a way to get him via a sign and trade, so the rumors of a Hawks offer sheet might not be true (or at least premature).

    Get in there, Leon!

  254. We should absolutely sign Harry Giles. He has been quite good when he has actually gotten on the floor and he has the blue chip pedigree. I’d be beyond thrilled if we took flyers on him and a couple other upside plays.

  255. We should absolutely sign Harry Giles. He has been quite good when he has actually gotten on the floor and he has the blue chip pedigree. I’d be beyond thrilled if we took flyers on him and a couple other upside plays.

    If they can dump Randle, definitely. Otherwise, I think they’d waste him.

  256. 4 years at 120m was obviously out of our league. Now we know why he opted out. He had to have a good idea of what kind of deals were out there. He wanted to go to Indiana, but for that kind of money you play anywhere.

  257. I don’t get the rumored Knick interest in Kentavius Caldwell-Pope. Dude can’t shoot!

    He’s OK, but not on a team that needs shooters to help RJ.

  258. I like what Atlanta is doing.

    They have a very young team that had some injuries last year that held them back. If they are healthy, get some development, and with the addition of vets like Capela and Gallo for a full season, they have a real basketball team with a lot of upside. They probably still need some help on defense, especially because Trae is a revolving door, but they are on the way up and doing it right.

  259. Cap space, despite what the Knicks will sell, is overrated in the NBA. If a team wants to create room for a player, it can easily shed salary and trim around the edges. Winning is a more significant recruiting tool. Just ask Steve Mills about the pitfalls of losing.

    Bondy has it right.

    You don’t want to do crazy things like give 120m for 4 years to a 30 year old 3rd option, but you have to be pretty good already to compete in free agency for good players. If that means paying a small premium sometimes you do it. That way you can get a look from the best free agents later. Riley does it all the time. It’s a tough balance, but what we are doing again so far this year is swapping interchangeable useless parts. I hope they have something productive up their sleeve somewhere.

  260. I’d legit just as soon let DSJ start at the point over Teague.

    why?

    I know he’s lost his job a few times, getting ready to look at his stats now…

    I don’t know how he and thibs got along…he mentioned wanting to find a “winning” situation, but, with 10 teams in the post season, pretty much everyone has a chance…

  261. Deeefense:

    Acquiring talented, young, cost-controlled players through the draft is productive. Hopefully we see RJ & Obi give this team some life this year. After the next draft, I expect us to start adding outside pieces, before we extend Mitch to a bigger deal.

  262. geo: why?

    I know he’s lost his job a few times, getting ready to look at his stats now…

    I don’t know how he and thibs got along…he mentioned wanting to find a “winning” situation, but, with 10 teams in the post season, pretty much everyone has a chance…

    I think Teague is at that age when he’s about to fall off a cliff. He’ll still probably be better than DSJr or Frank and would be a serviceable placeholder on a 1 year. But from a player development perspective, DSJr makes sense.

  263. The Hawks just added Rondo to go with Dunn, Not sure I like that as much, but a high IQ vet on the team will help with the development over the next 2 years.

  264. If DSJ was the starting point, Thibs would be in Rikers for murder one by May.

    I want a run at Bogie, a run at Ingram, and a flier on Giles.

  265. E: I want a run at Bogie, a run at Ingram, and a flier on Giles.

    Bogie makes sense, but Alec Burks kind of fills that same slot.

    I doubt NOP lets Ingram go at any price, so I think it would just tie our money up for a week.

  266. Ingram seems likely to get squeezed, as everyone knows NOP will match anything and won’t bother with an offer sheet. These situations demonstrate a pretty big flaw in the RFA system.

    You don’t want to do crazy things like give 120m for 4 years to a 30 year old 3rd option, but you have to be pretty good already to compete in free agency for good players. If that means paying a small premium sometimes you do it. That way you can get a look from the best free agents later. Riley does it all the time. It’s a tough balance, but what we are doing again so far this year is swapping interchangeable useless parts. I hope they have something productive up their sleeve somewhere.

    Free agents choose teams based on the players they’ll be joining, not the players they’ll be replacing. KD and Kyrie chose the Nets because they had a lot of talent on the roster that was cheap enough to still allow them to sign two max contracts.

    If you sign a bunch of mid-tier free agents at a premium, you necessarily have to move them to make room for elite free agents. That is simply how a salary cap works. They will make no difference whatsoever in an elite free agent’s determination because why the hell would they? The elite free agent in question won’t be playing with them.

    So the elite free agents in this scenario need to be impressed with the players who will remain. You get those through the draft or with below market free agency deals in rare circumstances. If you sign a bunch of mid-tier free agents at a premium, your draft picks are statistically less likely to be impressive, and you have less room for below market free agent contracts.

    In other words, your strategy doesn’t work at all.

    Hope this helps!

  267. Bogie makes sense, but Alec Burks kind of fills that same slot.

    If, like me, you want RJ firmly at the 3, having both at the 2 is good.

  268. Free agents chose teams based on the players they’ll be joining, not the players they’ll be replacing.

    I don’t know why this is hard to understand. Yet it’s apparently hard to understand.

  269. Free agents chose teams based on the players they’ll be joining, not the players they’ll be replacing. KD and Kyrie chose the Nets because they had a lot of talent on the roster that was cheap enough to still allow them to sign two max contracts.

    If you sign a bunch of mid-tier free agents at a premium, you necessarily have to move them to make room for elite free agents. That is simply how a salary cap works. They will make no difference whatsoever in an elite free agent’s determination because why the hell would they? The elite free agent in question won’t be playing with them.

    I understand that. That’s why I said it’s a tough balance. But very good management teams (like Riley and others), find creative ways to move bad contracts, get some decent talent on fair contracts, add some kids that can play, construct the team properly, add a good coach etc… and remain competitive enough to attract top free agent talent without blowing everything up for a 5-10 year rebuild. If I was smart enough to do it, they’d be paying me millions of dollars. lol I’m not. But I’m smart enough to evaluate specific actions and see what works, what doesn’t work, and how long it takes when each option is chosen and done competently. What we are doing will eventually work some year, but lightening is going to have to strike for it to work in a timely fashion.

  270. The Knicks just might as well forfeit the season so that none of their young players get hurt. Save money on MSG TV salaries.

  271. We needed a point guard to legally constitute a basketball team so I have no problem with bringing back Payton at that price

  272. Payton and Teague are your point guards. Get ready for a 65 loss season.
    Next year Frank and DSJr are RFAs and are gone.

  273. If you bring up the nets as an example I think it actually works against you. Kyrie and KD joined that team once they proved they had some young talent. That is true.
    But that young talent was acquired through salary dumps, second round picks, signing undrafted dudes and then Kenny Payne coached them up over two seasons.
    We have thibs and a great coaching staff focused on development. We have lots of young talent plus multiple first round picks over the next few years. We’re in a better place now than the nets were when Payne started turning them into a good team that KD and kyrie wanted to join.

    Patience for one more season will pay off. Let our coaches do their job. I’d like a stop gap veteran PG for this year and at times it’ll be tough to watch more losses but I’m personally excited to see all the young kids grow under thibs. I think it’s gonna be a fun season.

  274. Nice to be back following at KB. This thread has had genuine intrigue today! Thanks.

    My takeaway, I know everyone is breathless…

    Happy we’ve done nothing stupid. Excited for a front line of Mitch, RJ and Obi. Those guys all could theoretically be all stars and could start flashing that kind of potential this year. I’m less sanguine on whether we’ll ever see legit production from Knox and Frank but at least WE drafted them, they’re not overpaid and may still have some upside as role players if nothing else.

    Some cash laying around if the right player becomes available…

  275. Melo staying with the Blazers, and Elfrid Payton back on a completely sensible deal (1 year, 5 mil). I don’t love Payton, but he’s a perfectly cromulent placeholder if he can be made to share the ball more with RJ.

    Player development season, baby!

  276. although probably worth pointing out that like every fucking guy on this team went to kentucky or is repped by CAA

  277. thenoblefacehumper:
    If this means we’re not trading for Westbrook it’s the best 1/$5M contract of all time

    We still have $26 million of cap space, so Randle for Westbrook does fit into that just barely…

    Also, ~$15 million to hit the minimum salary

  278. It’s really starting to look like nobody wants to play for Dolan. They haven’t come close to anyone but pure dreck in two years of mega cap space. Elfrid Payton again? JFC. Yuck.

  279. How about we all meet here again for another repeat of “Knicks are finally rebuilding with youth” this coming summer, the day after the next free agency when we reset once again?

  280. Based on what I’ve said previously, everyone knows I like Payton at 5m a LOT. This is the kind of thing I can live with. He’s better than people give him credit for, may be better than that if healthy, and he’s young enough to get better. If by some chance you can add a better PG, you’ll have no problem moving him. If you have 3-4 Paytons, overpay one solid starter, have some good kids on the roster (which we already do), you can compete and generate interest from free agents. But you can’t keep swapping trash year after year like we’ve been doing. Nothing personal against Alex Burks, but he doesn’t do it for me at 6m for a year. He’s wasted cap space like Portis, Ellington and a bunch of others we’ve had over the years etc.. .

  281. Current depth chart:

    PG: Payton/DSJ/Quickley/Harper (2-way)
    SG: RJ/Bullock/Frank
    SF: Knox/Burks/Iggy
    PF: Randle/Toppin
    C: Mitch/Davis

    Two open roster spots, though Berman has said the FO is prepared to waive Davis if they need another roster spot. This team will not be good, and I’d rather see Randle elsewhere, but the roster seems much more balanced in terms of skillset, and there should be ample opportunities for the kids to play if they earn that time.

  282. My plan:

    Larkin 3/20 – highly unlikely at this point
    Noel 3/20
    Giles 3/12 – 3rd year team option
    McLaughlin 3/12 – 3rd year team option

    Chase Ingram try to pry him away.

    Maybe see if Minnesota wants DSj and send him for McLaughlin.

  283. I actually liked Payton so don’t mind him returning. But yeah we are gonna suck real bad again this season although I think with Thibs coaching they won’t come close to finishing with the worst record so barring some lottery luck it’ll be another wasted season where we probably will wind up picking 6th-8th in the draft again. Hopefully Mitch, RJ and Obi provide us with a glimmer of hope for the future and make this season still worth watching.

  284. I’m fine with Payton coming back- and I’m fine with him freezing out RJ if RJ’s still putting up a .490 TS%. Seriously, making a 2/3 who can’t shoot a lick a building block makes team building really difficult.

  285. Alan:
    Current depth chart:

    PG: Payton/DSJ/Quickley/Harper (2-way)
    SG: RJ/Bullock/Frank
    SF: Knox/Burks/Iggy
    PF: Randle/Toppin
    C: Mitch/Davis

    Two open roster spots, though Berman has said the FO is prepared to waive Davis if they need another roster spot. This team will not be good, and I’d rather see Randle elsewhere, but the roster seems much more balanced in terms of skillset, and there should be ample opportunities for the kids to play if they earn that time.

    That’s the worst roster in the NBA. By a pretty fair amount, too.

  286. E: That’s the worst roster in the NBA. By a pretty fair amount, too.

    100%.
    Worse than last season.
    Can we just fast forward to the lottery?

  287. PG: Payton/DSJ/Quickley/Harper (2-way)
    SG: RJ/Bullock/Frank
    SF: Knox/Burks/Iggy
    PF: Randle/Toppin
    C: Mitch/Davis

    I would try to smallball this a bit more. RJ at SF, Knox at PF as much as possible.

    I also think Harry Giles as a third center is a fine idea. Mitch fouls out after 10 minutes and Davis is washed, so there would probably be minutes for Giles at the 5.

  288. If Elfrid Payton is the starting point, I’m sitting out the year. I can’t believe they brought that guy back. Textbook symbol of the merc year, can’t play, symbol that somehow Scott Perry still has sway, just makes them look utterly pathetic.

  289. If Elfrid Payton is the starting point, I’m sitting out the year. I can’t believe they brought that guy back.

    Don’t you regularly cite the fact that the offense is marginally better with Frank on the floor as evidence of his latent power? Have you checked Payton’s on/off?

  290. We still have a crap ton of money left, so there’s no guarantee that Payton is the starter.

    I figure we still need a backup C, PG, and a PF (if we send Randle out).

    We have about $30 million, including the room exception.

  291. DRed: We’ve done nothing all day?

    I don’t know whether this should make me cheerful or fearful.

    On one hand, ya gotta be pleased with the level of restraint exhibited thus far. No gross overpays in the name of starfucking. No pointless deals given to middling talents who wouldn’t make the team appreciably better but are just good enough to keep it mired in bottom-of-the-lottery mediocrity. It certainly appears to be a departure from how this team has approached free agency of late.

    OTOH, I can’t seem to shake this nagging feeling that Rose & Co. might just be keeping their powder dry for some mind-boggingly moronic gut punch of a move that will one day take its place in the Pantheon of Stupid alongside the Curry & Bargnani trades.

    I want to believe that the new regime is OK with finally getting off the hamster wheel of mediocrity and embracing the suck in the interests of letting the kids play and better draft seeding . I really do. Unfortunately, this fucking team has foreclosed any possibility of my giving it the benefit of the doubt.

  292. @wojespn
    Denver has pulled the qualifying offer on forward Torrey Craig, which allows him to become an unrestricted free agent, source tells ESPN. The Nuggets have valued Craig, but ran out of roster spots for him.

  293. E: It’s really starting to look like nobody wants to play for Dolan. They haven’t come close to anyone but pure dreck in two years of mega cap space. Elfrid Payton again? JFC. Yuck.

    Some of it may be not wanting to play for Dolan, but what they really don’t want to do is play on a terrible team unless you pay them a premium or give them a big premium as a mercenary. That’s the tough part. You’ve got to be around a .500 club so they believe that if they come in they can take the team to the next level (like Butler). But as thenoblefacehumper was saying earlier, you have to do it without gutting the roster to fit them so there’s nothing left. It’s obviously tricky and difficult, but it can be done by the smartest managements.

  294. Count de Pennies: I want to believe that the new regime is OK with finally getting off the hamster wheel of mediocrity and embracing the suck in the interests of letting the kids play and better draft seeding . I really do. Unfortunately, this fucking team has foreclosed any possibility of my giving it the benefit of the doubt.

    The new regime isn’t embracing the suck; nobody wants to play here. The best basketball city and fanbase in the world has been turned into Chernobyl.

  295. With who we have I would go:

    Frank/Payton/Harper
    Burks/Quickley
    RJ/Bullock/Iggy
    Toppin/Randle/Knox
    Mitch/Davis

    I would cut or trade DSj. I would also really try and move Randle to clear up time for Knox to back up Toppin. I would also sign a back up 5 (Noel, Giles, Cauley-Stein) and move on from Davis who looked pretty washed last year.

    We are going to be bad we might as well give Frank lots of minutes so we can move on or keep him with no doubt.

  296. Knicks records over the past 5 seasons…. see a trend? I do. How many wins do you all project for the Knicks in 2020-21? My guess is 10 or less in the short season.

    Season: Record
    2019-20: 17-65
    2018-19: 21-45
    2017-18: 29-53
    2016-17: 31-51
    2015-16: 32-50

  297. If Elfrid Payton is the starting point, I’m sitting out the year. I can’t believe they brought that guy back. Textbook symbol of the merc year, can’t play, symbol that somehow Scott Perry still has sway, just makes them look utterly pathetic.

    Granted, his shooting sucked last year, but seriously (and this is not hyperbole), imo the entire season for every player should get an asterisk because the team was so horribly constructed and coached by Mills/Perry/Fizdale almost no one was going have a good statistical year.

    He had injury issues again last year on top of playing in those dreg lineups.

    He’s not some star player, but if we get better coaching, better lineups, and some better spacing, he’s going to do a very good job for a guy getting paid 5m.

  298. Deeefense: Some of it may be not wanting to play for Dolan,but what they really don’t want to do is play on a terrible team unless you pay them a premium or give them a big premium as a mercenary.That’s the tough part.You’ve got to be around a .500 club so they believe that if they come in they can take the team to the next level (like Butler). But as thenoblefacehumper was saying earlier, you have to do it without gutting the roster to fit them so there’s nothing left.It’s obviously tricky and difficult, but it can be done by the smartest managements.

    People are going to Atlanta and Charlotte. No one wanted to play here in 2010 when the people in charge were MDA and Donnie Walsh. It’s the least desirable franchise in the sport; the evidence is clear.

    (Technically, one guy has wanted to play here but he was vastly overrated and they even managed to fuck that up. That’s properly viewed as a complete outlier.)

  299. I’m not sure who people wanted at PG this offseason that was significantly better than Payton. Dunn? Augustin? Throw the max at FVV?

  300. Are people upset we didn’t overpay for Hayward and FVV or make a truly atrocious trade for Westbrook?

    I think this has been a perfectly reasonable offseason and right in line with our rebuild.

    Now we just need to take a couple fliers on cheap young players and maybe a back up 5 and call it a day.

  301. I said 4/$100 for FVV but that probably wouldn’t be enough to lure him here. No sane player wants to join this team. Without any assets, without any fans in the seats, with a team in Brooklyn that has 2 top-tier players, would you join voluntarily?

  302. I’m upset because it’s becoming obvious no one wants to play here. I’m also a bit upset because it appears that somehow, some way, Scott Perry still holds sway in this organization. The front office/coach are a mismatch of competing agendas, which is why we’re already seeing the Berman stories about this guy wanting X and “some people in the organization” wanting Y.

  303. Are people upset we didn’t overpay for Hayward and FVV or make a truly atrocious trade for Westbrook?

    Exactly one contract has been signed that I would’ve wanted the Knicks to sign, that being Christian Wood’s.

    A predictable lot is freaking out that the Knicks, for once, don’t appear to be dead set on winning as many games as possible next season with no regard for the future consequences of that.

    I wouldn’t pay them any mind.

  304. People are going to Atlanta and Charlotte. No one wanted to play here in 2010 when the people in charge were MDA and Donnie Walsh.

    Charlotte is overpaying.

    Atlanta paid Gallo 61.5 million for 3 years. I love Gallo, but that’s not a screaming bargain. IMO, they also made a good move to add a more veteran experienced player like Capela in a trade last year. So going in Gallo had to see a 2nd solid veteran piece to go along with Trae and all the other young talent they have. After that, the floodgate opened. Everyone knows they are pretty good, with a lot of upside. But it starts by adding Capela in a trade and the young talent showing something.

    If for example RJ’s outside shot improves and we give him a lot of space to operate, either Frank, Knox, or Toppin is productive next year, Thibs is doing a great job, we add another good player, and we are suddenly winning games, free agents will notice.

  305. The problem with the Knicks is Knox, Frank, and RJ look terrible so far. If we could draft halfway decently, then players might actually want to come here and our win totals would look better.

    If Obi or RJ has a good year, things will start changing on the FA front.

  306. I don’t think free agents are shunning us. We offered Hayward two years, which looks laughable now, and didn’t really chase Wood or FVV.

    We didn’t make a big move because it looks like we didn’t chase one. No reason to fret that no one wants to come here.

  307. I am upset at how much we have sucked for the past 20 years but I am delighted that we didn’t do anything stupid. I feel like someone forgot to drop that neutron bomb on us that we all knew was coming.

    Things could turn fast for us in the next couple of years.

  308. Ben R: We offered Hayward two years, which looks laughable now, and didn’t really chase Wood or FVV.

    Right — and we didn’t really offer Kevin Durant the max, either. Steve Mills and Jim Dolan said so. “We didn’t chase anyone, we’re going to wait until next year” is what you say when no one is interested in playing for you. They’ll be saying the same thing next year, too.

    I wouldn’t have minded close, competitive strike outs with some of these guys. But there’s no indication whatsoever they were close on anyone.

  309. Question: if Orlando wants Westbrook, should the Knicks facilitate by taking Aaron Gordon (and sending out Knox)? Gordon has been a bit enigmatic. He is signed through 2022, but has a de-escalating salary, which would only be $16.4M that year (it was $21.6 this year). I haven’t really seen Gordon play much, he seems like a nice guy though, and has tools, it’s just weird that he hasn’t really improved much, so I’m wondering what people think about taking him in with our remaining cap space?

  310. We weren’t getting FVV. Even if we were good we weren’t getting FVV.

    I’d bid higher on Wood, but I’m not sure a young player wants to play behind Toppin & Mitch.

    Who else did we want badly?

  311. Knicks are actually not doing stupid things and trying to get better by natural growth. Yay!

    I do predict they will get savaged by pundits for not visibly turning the team around with flashy moves, but who cares, and I think that was impossible anyway.

  312. GoNYGoNYGo – Tanking forever: I said 4/$100 for FVV but that probably wouldn’t be enough to lure him here.

    Well, he re-upped with TOR for 4/$85. Which appears more or less commensurate with what I see as his market. While some may argue it would have been worth it for the Knicks to sweeten the pot by an extra $4 MM/yr to entice him to dive headfirst into this cesspool of hoop for the next four years, I’d disagree. I see him as a good piece on a team that already has a solid foundation, not a cornerstone upon which to build from the ground up. I am pleased that Rose decided to take a pass.

  313. We either we didn’t chase them which would be good or they didn’t want to come here which saved us from ourselves. Either way I’d maybe want Wood on the contract he got but honestly I’m okay with not getting him and everyone else was a bullet dodged.

  314. So far, this is the best Knicks offseason since they got Tyson Chandler. And I didn’t even like the draft.

  315. Count de Pennies: Well, he re-upped with TOR for 4/$85.Which appears more or less commensurate with what I see as his market. While some may argue it would have been worth it for the Knicks to sweeten the pot by an extra $4 MM/yr to entice him to wade into this cesspool of hoop for the next four years, I’d disagree. I see him as a good piece on a team that already has a solid foundation, not a cornerstone upon which to build from the ground up. I am pleased that Rose decided to take a pass.

    If we did offer 4/$100M Toronto had the funds to match it, likely would have matched it, and FVV still would have gone there.

  316. There is apparently a sizable “the Knicks should operate exactly as they have for the past 20 years” caucus here. Huh.

  317. Were they in the running for Wood? For Bogie? For Ingram? Anyone? Any indication of anyone they were close on? They’re just a complete non-factor. Basketball wasteland.

    And now they’re bringing back Scott Perry’s obsession. Scott Perry.

  318. E:
    Were they in the running for Wood?For Bogie?For Ingram?Anyone?Any indication of anyone they were close on?They’re just a complete non-factor.Basketball wasteland.

    And now they’re bringing back Scott Perry’s obsession.Scott Perry.

    What contracts would you offer each of these players?

  319. I still hope we chase Ingram though I think there is a very small chance he doesn’t remain in New Orleans.

    Why would we want Bogdanovic? He is about to get PAID and will not be a good value. He is overrated right now because he is the last medium sized pice still available.

  320. I feel you man but there was never any plausible path to relevance through free agency this year.

    We need to draft a star in the draft, get lucky in the second round, pick up a prospect in a cap space deal who breaks out, or one of the other things that turns around the fate of other teams.

    And then we can use our carefully husbanded assets and cap space to import some established stars.

    I don’t know how it will go but the path from here seems much more hopeful now that we have dished out any 3 or 4 year contracts to aging overrated vets

  321. The only player I was willing to spend money on was FVV. Still wish we had drafted Haliburton instead of Obi, the guard rotation still looks God awful and I don’t consider RJ a guard.

  322. If you want to develop a star through the draft, you don’t bring back a point guard who can’t shoot and who routinely froze out RJ Barrett so he could feed Julius Randle.

  323. ***I’m upset because it’s becoming obvious no one wants to play here.***

    Apparently, no free agents want to play in Boston either. And they have verified talent, stocked cupboards, a good coach, and (still) go to the ECF every year.

    It’s not all doom and gloom in NY right now (which is kind of strange to write). (It’s like ephus used to say: “now is a good time to be a Knick fan”). (Though, when and why he was saying that, I have no idea. Was he being facetious? Was he insane?) (Where has ephus gone, anyway?)

  324. Bad sign that Rose wasn’t able to get rid of Perry. He’s Mills’s and Dolan’s guy/spy. Nothing’s really changed. I had hope that he was just being kept around for face saving, but that’s obviously not the case. Sorry to have to report it, but it’s pretty clearly true.

  325. E:
    If you want to develop a star through the draft, you don’t bring back a point guard who can’t shoot and who routinely froze out RJ Barrett so he could feed Julius Randle.

    Factually, RJ was third on the team in USG% behind Randle & Morris. Unlike Randle and Morris, RJ was one of the worst players on the team.

    There’s no real reason to feed a struggling rookie who already takes up a large amount of your possessions.

  326. it’s confusing in the face of how free agency transpired that we thought that the 33rd pick was worthy of a punt considering that our big signing is …. alec burks….

    seriously the 33rd pick was not worth a roster spot over alec burks?

  327. it’s confusing in the face of how free agency transpired that we thought that the 33rd pick was worthy of a punt considering that our big signing is …. alec burks….

    seriously the 33rd pick was not worth a roster spot over alec burks?

    Agreed, especially since they clearly could have gotten Quickly at #33, so they could have taken someone even more interesting at #25. Terry, for instance.

  328. If you want to develop a star through the draft, you don’t bring back a point guard who can’t shoot and who routinely froze out RJ Barrett so he could feed Julius Randle.

    I keep seeing this. It’s utter nonsense.

    RJ with Payton on the floor: 16.7 PTS/36, 22.5% USG, .483 TS% (762 MP)

    RJ with Payton off the floor: 17.1 PTS/36, 24.8% USG, .475 TS% (981 MP)

  329. it’s confusing in the face of how free agency transpired that we thought that the 33rd pick was worthy of a punt considering that our big signing is …. alec burks….

    seriously the 33rd pick was not worth a roster spot over alec burks?

    It’s truly bizarre. Statistically speaking it’s simply highly unlikely a Dotson/Jones level prospect will be there with the 2023 2RP.

  330. Some of you guys sound like headline writers for the NY Post. Today’s:

    “Top tier NBA free agent passes on Knicks with shocking move”

    Uh, he didn’t “pass” on us, Charlotte offered him way more than we did. So dumb.

  331. If there is a double draft, then in theory all the second round picks that year will have a better expected value than the best second round pick this year.

    You effectively have 2 rounds worth of first round talent.

  332. For those of you that want Bogdanovic you should compare him to Burks. Burks is one year older and was virtually the same last year and if you compare the last three seasons they are shockingly similar.

    Last Year:
    https://stathead.com/basketball/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1_hint=Alec+Burks&player_id1_select=Alec+Burks&player_id1=burksal01&idx=bbr__players&p1yrfrom=2020&player_id2_hint=Bogdan+Bogdanovi%C4%87&player_id2_select=Bogdan+Bogdanovi%C4%87&player_id2=bogdabo01&idx=bbr__players&p2yrfrom=2020

    Last three Years:
    https://stathead.com/basketball/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&player_id1_hint=Alec+Burks&player_id1_select=Alec+Burks&player_id1=burksal01&idx=bbr__players&p1yrfrom=2018&p1yrto=2020&player_id2_hint=Bogdan+Bogdanovi%C4%87&player_id2_select=Bogdan+Bogdanovi%C4%87&player_id2=bogdabo01&idx=bbr__players&p2yrfrom=2018&p2yrto=2020

    The similarities actually make me a bit more bullish on Burks. He might be a pretty solid rotation piece next year.

    I think between him and Payton that’s pretty good work for a little bit of money and no future commitment.

  333. The way Rose handled the Quickley pick and the high second rounder is the one criticism I have of his tenure so far. There were definitely more interesting options than Quickley on the board at 25, Quickley would have very likely been on the board at 33, and then there were still interesting prospects on the board at 33 anyway.

    You should be able to find a decent guy to take a flyer on at 33 in just about every draft. It’s worth throwing the dart considering where we are on the win curve.

  334. It’s not hard to see through the outrage at a god damn 1/$5M deal for a cromulent point guard: a lot of people are of the opinion that Frank Ntilikina should play, like, 3,000 minutes.

    Here’s a novel idea: tell your guy that if he’s a better point guard than Elfrid freakin’ Payton he’s free to prove it with his play, because 3 years into his NBA career he hasn’t come close to doing that.

  335. I’m fine with Burks starting if it pushes RJ to small forward.

    Look, the Knicks are in a tough place. All their young players SUCKED except for Mitch, and none of their vets played “surprisingly” well either, except for Morris, who we already traded.

    It doesn’t make a lot of sense to sell low on Knox, DS2, RJ, Frank, and even Randle until Thibs at least tries to build up their value again.

    Maybe it’s not possible. At worst, you trade Dennis or whoever as an expiring before his contract is picked up.

    Standing pat is probably the best move unless you can get guys BELOW market value. That happens at the end of free agency.

    I’m actually impressed with this direction, especially with a very good draft coming in 2021. I just hope Thibs can match these parts correctly and get some visible improvement from the young guys.

  336. I would try to smallball this a bit more. RJ at SF, Knox at PF as much as possible.

    This but with Frank at 2 is what I’m thinking.

    Pleasantly surprised by this offseason so far. Didn’t like the draft, but they only made situationally aware moves in FA. Dunno why folks are upset. The only game changer (presumably) available this offseason is Harden and we don’t have the surrounding parts to make it work. And we didn’t make getting someone like that plus another valuable player impossible by overpaying for 3rd man types. I can see why Rose kept Perry on as an administrator.

  337. marechal:
    So far, this is the best Knicks offseason since they got Tyson Chandler. And I didn’t even like the draft.

    I’m with you. Warts and all, it’s one of the best offseasons in recent memory. I’m “meh” on the draft and bringing back Payton. As some others have said, we should bring in Harry Giles. Play. The. Kids.

    I’m okay with Payton if he’s basically a backup. I have 0 hope that DSJ or Frank will become a decent PG, but I’d play them over Payton, at least at first. Run the offense through RJB (point forward) instead.

    Until the Knicks can get a good young trio of players, don’t spend big bucks on 4 year deals for free agents, unless a true superstar like Giannis. Right now the Knicks have 1/2 of a good young player (Mitch). RJB, Frank, Knox, DSJ and the new rooks are all 0’s, but hopefully one or two will emerge this year…

  338. I enjoyed watching the team last year after Fizdale was gone. Under Miller they played a lot better, competed most nights, and won some games. If we continue to do that and RJ, Mitch, Frank all improve I think we’ll be fun to watch. Plus toppin. I don’t get all the negativity. Our cap space means we could absorb someone at any pint this season. People act like free agents don’t want to come here but this free agency class kinda sucks. I’d much rather we not blow our cap space and then be pissed about it next season.

    We could surprise people this year. Just you wait!

  339. Yes, this feels different this year. I’m happy to play the kids. If we play better than expected it’ll be because our four top ten picks in the last four years played well. We did tank, we got draft picks, we drafted and now they have to be our best players. If we get our asses kicked it means we didn’t draft well. Period. In that case, we get a chance to try again, with a new regime who didn’t make those mistakes (assuming Toppin isn’t one of them). Going to high priced FA’s to make up for drafting poorly is bad strategy and yes, they won’t want to come. But if we did nothing else then find our diamond in Obi, that may be enough to change the culture.

  340. If there is a double draft, then in theory all the second round picks that year will have a better expected value than the best second round pick this year.

    You effectively have 2 rounds worth of first round talent.

    This is a false assumption… and the reason is that ..

    1) you’ll have a few of those fringe or mid first rd’ers goto college to improve their draft stock instead of getting in a crowded field….
    2) there might not be enough talent for a deep 2nd rd….
    3)talent flattens out after the mid first round anyway year to year….

    and that also doesn’t take into account that we are in dire need of talent now…. there’s really no one on this roster save for a few guys that we should be afraid of ditching for a chance at someone that could be useful… and there were plenty of those guys available…. punting on a 2nd rd pick is what contenders with roster crunches do…. we are certainly not that…

  341. E:
    I’m upset because it’s becoming obvious no one wants to play here.I’m also a bit upset because it appears that somehow, some way, Scott Perry still holds sway in this organization.The front office/coach are a mismatch of competing agendas, which is why we’re already seeing the Berman stories about this guy wanting X and “some people in the organization” wanting Y.

    No one wants to play here because a) the team is bad right now and b) mgmt is not overpaying. With our cap room we could have gotten a bunch of the guys that signed elsewhere if we wanted to pay the “shitty team” premium. You don’t think Wood would have taken 3 years/$60 million to play here? Or FVV would have taken 4 years/$120 million?

    It takes time to fumigate a team after two decades of mismanagement has driven the roster into the ground, including 3 straight uninspiring draft picks and a fire sale trade for the one that had excess value. Only another bad GM/POBO would have signed anyone to some of the bloated contracts they received + the shitty team premium.

    And to be fair, no GM makes perfect moves all the time. Take a real good look at the draft history of your favorite long-time GMs and you will see plenty of head-scratchers. If anything, a prudent approach will make more UFAs want to sign here in the future if we build a young core (see: Boston, Atlanta, Brooklyn, Denver, etc, etc.)

    That doesn’t mean that the next move won’t be the same stoopid shit as the moves that got us here, but this is no time to be depressed about what the team didn’t do.

  342. punting on a 2nd rd pick is what contenders with roster crunches do…. we are certainly not that…

    And the strangest thing is that all of Rose’s other moves seem to suggest that he gets that, and yet he still reached for Quickly and then punted the #33 pick.

  343. elfrid averaged 6.5 assists at the rim per 100 last year. lebron was 6.8. doncic was 5.0. payton had more rim assists to each of randle and mitch separately in fewer minutes than doncic did to kp. we probably shouldn’t wet ourselves for paying $5m for a semblance of professional point guarding when we are rolling with the lobsy twins mitch and obi. and rj had virtually the same numbers when playing with and without elfrid.

  344. E:
    If you want to develop a star through the draft, you don’t bring back a point guard who can’t shoot and who routinely froze out RJ Barrett so he could feed Julius Randle.

    A PG could get away with that freeze out the rookie shit under a rookie no-name coach. It won’t work with Thibs, I can assure you. He would get benched and then if he complained, waived.

    And by the way, RJ sucked last year. It’s possible that the coach told him to stop feeding RJ until he stopped fucking up and shooting bricks. And guess what? They won a bunch of games (sadly!)

  345. Re: the Quickley reach, I think I heard that they had intel that a team in the mid-20s was going to take him. But yeah, there were plenty of decent players still on the board at 33.

    Also, it sounds like the Seton Hall kid will get a legit shot, although he seems like a 12th man at best.

  346. thenoblefacehumper: It’s truly bizarre. Statistically speaking it’s simply highly unlikely a Dotson/Jones level prospect will be there with the 2023 2RP.

    You and others aren’t buying the double-draft theory. We’ll see. PS Dotson was such a great prospect that he went undrafted. Not that he won’t be good, but a lot of excellent GMs passed him over.

  347. JK47: There were definitely more interesting options than Quickley on the board at 25, Quickley would have very likely been on the board at 33, and then there were still interesting prospects on the board at 33 anyway.

    This is speculation. Might turn out to be true but I wouldn’t be so sure. 2023 is just around the corner and that pick will likely have more value that a likely replacement-level player during the next years. I’m trusting the scouts and capologists on this one until I have reason not to.

  348. I’m on Team Positive in terms of this offseason so far. We did very little, but boy were the alternatives even worse (given our win curve). I do think we’ll suck, but it’s a very root-able team, which is a very nice change. I really want to dump DSJ sooner than later, and while I can understand the urge to keep Randle given our offensive suckitude, I hope we dump him once we’re into the season if/when Toppin starts showing something. Work Obi in, then get something useful for Randle. I like Frank at the 2, defending whoever is toughest in the other backcourt. Although I’d want to start Bullock there, with Frank moving around between the two positions. Interestingly Bullock, RJ, and Burks are basically all the same size (6’6″ and between 205 and 215). Two of them have shown they can hit the 3. Add Quickley off the bench for some quick 3s (see what I did there) and well, there’s at least the shadow of a team there.

    Again, we suck. But there’s nobody I hate outside of DSJ (and Randle’s spin move). And a lot of stuff to root for. And I did all that without mentioning Mitch, and his new-found 3pt shot.

  349. alot of gm’s also passed on christian wood and van vleet…. it’s no guarantee that dotson becomes a player in this league…. but he’s a lot more interesting than iggy… or burks… or harper.. or frank or pinson… or powell… or wooten…. it’s close to even money that dotson is on an nba roster and none of these other guys are in a couple of years…..

  350. FYI… for those turning their attention to the 2021 draft… the college season is starting … next week… yea i know crazy…

    cade cunningham is playing on espn for his debut on wed 11/25… and he’s the consensus #1 pick so far who probably would’ve easily gone #1 this year…. suffice to say he’s a potential franchise altering talent that’s worth monitoring….

  351. djphan: This is a false assumption… and the reason is that ..

    1) you’ll have a few of those fringe or mid first rd’ers goto college to improve their draft stock instead of getting in a crowded field….
    2) there might not be enough talent for a deep 2nd rd….
    3)talent flattens out after the mid first round anyway year to year….

    and that also doesn’t take into account that we are in dire need of talent now…. there’s really no one on this roster save for a few guys that we should be afraid of ditching for a chance at someone that could be useful… and there were plenty of those guys available…. punting on a 2nd rd pick is what contenders with roster crunches do…. we are certainly not that…

    While some of what your saying (but I doubt all of it) may be true, it’s a lot easier to move up in a draft when you have muultiple picks. You saw that happen in this draft…having #27 and #38 made it possible to move to #25 and #33. So moving the pick to 2023 may make it more possible to move up in that draft.

    And let’s be real, even those who don’t like the move said that it wasn’t really a big deal in and of itself, more an indication of poor decision making going forward. Yet the Toppin pick was 100x more consequential, and the Quickley pick 10x more, so they should really be judged on how those guys turn out. Their restraint during this FA frenzy is also way more consequential.

  352. If it’s possible to find a decent pg at no33 of the draft it’s also possible to find it undrafted, in g league or in Europe/rest of the world.
    The drama with the 33rd pick is way too much imo

  353. Some blast from the past posts from the past 3 free agent signing periods….

    We do have six picks in the next four years though, right? So, we’re set up to find players like that in the draft. ….The lesson I think is, we really can’t afford to put out a door mat team, save a bunch of money, and throw it at a guy. Lots of teams are gonna have space and are already gonna be good. We need to get better and that means winning games and that means signing good players or seeing growth from our own.

    See the complete Post June 30, 2019

    The worst thing about all of these deals is that now we have to watch this horseshit ill-fitting unwatchable team full of non-prospects and back-of-roster veterans for an entire two seasons…There is really nothing to look forward to until the 2020 draft lottery. This could easily be the worst team in the NBA again, so we’re doing The Process without even doing The Process. We’re doing just the shitty part where we lose, and not doing the good part where we accumulate a bunch of draft picks.

    July 1, 2019

    The best hope for the Knicks is that KP becomes a monster and that a couple of the young players develop into something in the vicinity of max players, or at least get good enough to form a strong trade package for a star once we have some cap room.

    July 2, 2018

  354. Burks and Payton 1year signings prove that last season’s mercenary contracts may seemed reasonable back then but they weren’t exactly…fair deals

  355. Looking into the Crystal Ball….

    Knicks win the lottery!!!! They get the #1 pick
    a day later…
    Cade Cunningham “My family and I have decided that I need one more year in school.”

  356. I would have rather had Payton on a 2+1 tbh. He’s cheap and serviceable and we’re gonna need at least a backup for the foreseeable. Frank’s not a 1, Quickley seems like he’s maybe a tweener, DSj is dead weight. Even if we draft a Ja Morant next year we’ll still need someone.

  357. Their restraint during this FA frenzy is also way more consequential.

    Sure. They’ve been quite impressive otherwise. As you note, it’s not like even the greatest GMs are without missteps.

  358. ***Burks and Payton 1year signings prove that last season’s mercenary contracts may seemed reasonable back then but they weren’t exactly…fair deals***

    I’m not sure if I disagree with everything you write, or if I just don’t ever understand what you’re trying to say. But it’s one of the two.

  359. djphan: it’s no guarantee that dotson becomes a player in this league…. but he’s a lot more interesting than iggy… or burks… or harper.. or frank or pinson… or powell… or wooten…. it’s close to even money that dotson is on an nba roster and none of these other guys are in a couple of years….

    I disagree about Iggy, he would be a college junior right now and has some skills. Also disagree about Frank. Dotson may turn out to be good, but statistically he’s seems to be pretty much a dime-a-dozen undersized 2 to me. He played on the best team in college basketball and only generated 4 assist a game.

  360. Burks and Payton 1year signings prove that last season’s mercenary contracts may seemed reasonable back then but they weren’t exactly…fair deals

    The idea that they raced to sign those shitty deals is pretty hilarious in retrospect. And they were only able to sign Morris because one of the guys they raced to lock down failed his physical!!@

  361. And let’s be real, even those who don’t like the move said that it wasn’t really a big deal in and of itself, more an indication of poor decision making going forward. Yet the Toppin pick was 100x more consequential, and the Quickley pick 10x more, so they should really be judged on how those guys turn out. Their restraint during this FA frenzy is also way more consequential.

    2d rd picks are usually not game changers so yes it’s not consequential in a vacuum… but for a team as talent bereft every chance we have to add a decent young player is a consequential one… how much worse are we if we didn’t draft mitch?

    there is probably something like a 33% chance that nobody in the 2nd rd will make it in the nba especially this year… it wasn’t a ton of good talent left in the 2nd round but that’s really not the point…. there’s at least a handful of guys that were better than the bottom of our roster…. that should be super clear for anyone paying attention to the draft this year… i don’t care if we have had the 60th pick… someone was going to be better than a lot of these guys that have zero chance of making it…..

    and the quickley pick was indicative of bad decision-making also…. i can almost guarantee that one will age super poorly considering the quality of guys picked by quality teams picked right after him…. and not to mention his exact clone… isaiah joe… went deep in the 2nd rd…. so yea i’m highly skeptical of these suspicious leaks that some stupid team was in danger of picking quickley in the first rd when a guy who basically has the same exact game … similar physique and similar numbers didn’t get his number called 40 picks later…

  362. It’s hard to understand how DJ Augustin, who’s 33 years old, is declining from a place of never very good, and has only played in a few largely inconsequential playoff games, gets 3/$21M from the best team in the league, while Payton, who is younger and better, is relegated to playing from one year contract to one year contract for all the worst teams in the league. (Hell, Augustin was even the lone backup pg on Orlando that had to take over when Orlando up and jettisoned Payton’s rookie contract for a future 2nd rounder).

  363. “I’m not sure if I disagree with everything you write, or if I just don’t ever understand what you’re trying to say. But it’s one of the two.”

    Fair

  364. I think Frank is a pg. Whether he is a good pg is yet to be seen but he has consistently played better at pg than at the 2. If he develops a consistent 3 point shot that will make him better at the 2 but I think right now he is a pg. A non-ball dominant one in the mold of George Hill or FVV but still a pg. He is actually pretty good running the pick and roll, his big problem last year was teams were daring him to shoot threes and he was both not consistent and too passive to punish them. If that changes he will look a lot better.

  365. Dotson may turn out to be good, but statistically he’s seems to be pretty much a dime-a-dozen undersized 2 to me. He played on the best team in college basketball and only generated 4 assist a game.

    ok so i’m sure you can name a dozen pgs in the last 10 years that put up 20/5/4/2 steals >.500 2p fg% as a freshman or sophmore then right?

  366. It’s hard to understand how DJ Augustin, who’s 33 years old, is declining from a place of never very good, and has only played in a few largely inconsequential playoff games, gets 3/$21M from the best team in the league, while Payton, who is younger and better, is relegated to playing from one year contract to one year contract for all the worst teams in the league.

    There just might be a teeny tiny market inefficiency for guys who can’t shoot but otherwise have some skills. Of course, to really exploit it you’d need to have a lot of other guys on your roster who can in fact shoot, which we do not.

  367. djphan: 2d rd picks are usually not game changers so yes it’s not consequential in a vacuum… but for a team as talent bereft every chance we have to add a decent young player is a consequential one… how much worse are we if we didn’t draft mitch?

    This is super unfair because they actually targeted Mitch. If Mitch was taken earlier and they rolled over the pick, it would be a fair comparison. The guy they targeted this time was Carey, jr. and he was taken the pick before.

  368. Noel 5M/1year
    Yeah baby!
    That’s THE SHIIIT I’m talking about !!!

    Compare that signing to Taj’s 10 and Bobby’s 15 and aaaaarghhhhhh!!!!!

  369. djphan: there is probably something like a 33% chance that nobody in the 2nd rd will make it in the nba especially this year… it wasn’t a ton of good talent left in the 2nd round but that’s really not the point…. there’s at least a handful of guys that were better than the bottom of our roster…. that should be super clear for anyone paying attention to the draft this year… i don’t care if we have had the 60th pick… someone was going to be better than a lot of these guys that have zero chance of making it…..

    That will be true in 2023 as well, possibly when we have no cap space and no other way to acquire players other than the draft. And “making it in the NBA” is a vague construct. Tons of 2nd rounders get a cup of coffee and even stick around on the fringes for a few years. How many actually make a difference beyond what you can pick up on the waiver wire or low-level free agency or trades? What are the chances that Dotson or Tre Jones turn out to be players that are a better use of a roster spot than Burks or Payton? And remember, with 2nd rounders, there’s no rookie scale.

    Ultimately, it’s simply not a big deal.

  370. Donnie Walsh:
    It’s hard to understand how DJ Augustin, who’s 33 years old, is declining from a place of never very good, and has only played in a few largely inconsequential playoff games, gets 3/$21M from the best team in the league, while Payton, who is younger and better, is relegated to playing from one year contract to one year contract for all the worst teams in the league. (Hell, Augustin was even the lone backup pg on Orlando that had to take over when Orlando up and jettisoned Payton’s rookie contract for a future 2nd rounder).

    It’s easy to understand. Payton shot 20% from 3, 57% from the line, is lazy on defense, and doesn’t play it straight because he freezes out some guys and favors other guys. He’s terrible. He serves a KB purpose of being a vehicle to attack Frank — the Knicks fanbase equivalent of owning the libs — but nothing more.

  371. He serves a KB purpose of being a vehicle to attack Frank — the Knicks fanbase equivalent of owning the libs — but nothing more.

    Called it!

  372. So with Noel on an outstanding deal, we could have a ridiculously prolific shot-blocking tandem, and an array for fearsome dunkers.

  373. Ultimately, it’s simply not a big deal.

    this is the sort of thinking that does lead to people selling and punting on 2nd rd picks…

    for bad teams they are valuable to fill out roster spots cheaply… the upside for hitting is huge given the contracts you can negotiate… we have mitch locked up on a heinous deal and he’s been extremely productive….. and it is absolutely valuable to be getting that while you have cannon fodder littered everywhere on your roster…

    you might think iggy is worthy of roster spot… like i have no idea what that is based on but ok… but what is alec burks contributing to the future of this team? like any number of guys picked after pick #25 wasn’t worth a shot over him?

  374. Payton was probably the best non-Mitch Knick on the team last year after we traded Morris. Granted that’s a low bar, but he’s a decent PG, even if he can’t shoot, and there are reasons to hope he’ll shoot better this year than last season.

  375. Noel! Always loved him

    Leon Rose, you have my attention

    Payton Noel and Burks for 15 million and one year is what the doctor ordered

    Now trade Randle Leon

  376. djphan: ok so i’m sure you can name a dozen pgs in the last 10 years that put up 20/5/4/2 steals >.500 2p fg% as a freshman or sophmore then right?

    If he turns into a significant NBA rotation in the next 3 years I will gladly admit to being wrong on the move to pass him over. For the record, I’m still waiting for Kay Felder to turn the corner.

  377. I like Nerlens Noel at 5M a lot. We need another good C because we don’t know how many minutes Mitch can stay on the court before getting into foul trouble. Noel is a solid pro. Good job Knicks. It would be nice to add a solid shooting wing to really move us forward, but we’ll see. Still have plenty of money and there’s always a trade possibility with Randle.

  378. Yes! Nerlens!!

    Do you think this means they’ll trade Randle? I definitely don’t want him goofing up the starting PF slot.

  379. I am so happy about Noel. I have been stumping for him for years. I think he is possibly the most underrated player in the NBA.

    Now since Rose is obviously reading this blog sign Shane Larkin. Euroleague MVP, outstanding 3 point shooter, true pg, and available for a reasonable price. Alright Leon, go, make it happen.

  380. djphan: this is the sort of thinking that does lead to people selling and punting on 2nd rd picks…

    for bad teams they are valuable to fill out roster spots cheaply… the upside for hitting is huge given the contracts you can negotiate… we have mitch locked up on a heinous deal and he’s been extremely productive…..and it is absolutely valuable to be getting that while you have cannon fodder littered everywhere on your roster…

    you might think iggy is worthy of roster spot… like i have no idea what that is based on but ok… but what is alec burks contributing to the future of this team? like any number of guys picked after pick #25 wasn’t worth a shot over him?

    This will be true when in 2023 when we are capped out and still not all the way there. Unless you’re telling me that the surprise second rounder wouldn’t help a team like the Celts or the Bucks…

  381. Maybe Rose can trade for Skal Labissiere, Malik Monk, Trey Lyles, and Keldon Johnson, so we can get a few UK players on the team, amirite?

  382. If he turns into a significant NBA rotation in the next 3 years I will gladly admit to being wrong on the move to pass him over. For the record, I’m still waiting for Kay Felder to turn the corner.

    this is not just about dotson… who yes there are many comps like isaiah thomas or van vleet or jj barea who have excelled in the nba…. it’s about picking quickley at 25 AND punting on 33…. i can guarantee there will probably be multiple people picked after 25 that will be better than quickley and at least 5 players on our roster…. it’s so obvious that it isn’t really much of a question….

  383. Dotson was a pretty good prospect, I am honestly confused why he didn’t get drafted. He was the best player on the best college team in the country, he’s just 21, he’s a bit small but he’s very athletic, and he was a productive college player

  384. If the play is to fill out the roster with quality veterans, then well, let’s get veterans who are actually good, like Nerlens Noel. I’m not a big fan of Burks because he can be a bit of a chucker a lot of times, but he’s also a talented player who can shoot 3s are a decent rate, and Payton is Payton, there’s not much to say, he has his qualities and his issues and I think he’s pretty much at his ceiling level, but again, not a terrible player. I’m not mad.

  385. *pinches arm*
    OH SHIT! NERLENS NOEL FOR REAL??
    Yal!
    Do you know how long I’ve wanted him on the squad? Now don’t get me wrong…this offseason doesn’t necessarily move the needle..but it’s been a necessary one. Signings that don’t block the kids, but still help. All that’s left is to move Randle and add a SG who can score on his own. I’d be down for a Trier reunion if he can accept his role and Thibs’ tutelage. Remember- Thibs is the same guy that got Lavine to grow.

  386. I know the Kentucky/CAA thing seems creepy, but the other side of it is that it’s not a bad group to build allegiances with. That was probably Rose’s sales pitch to Dolan.

  387. Yeah if having Leon Rose means we’re already scouting Brandon Boston Jr that’s something I can live with. Leon Rose basically ran the Knicks in 2013 and that was our best season since the 90s.

  388. How does OKC not resign Noel after trading Adams? Horford is the only big on the roster no? For whatever reason none of the teams Noel’s been on has seemed particularly interested in keeping him around.

  389. For whatever reason none of the teams Noel’s been on has seemed particularly interested in keeping him around.

    Payton’s been the same way. Finally, they are together!

Leave a Reply