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Sunday, October 22, 2017

Knicks Morning News (2017.07.12)

  • [SNY Knicks] Knicks invite Xavier Rathan-Mayes to training camp
    (Tuesday, July 11, 2017 9:54:44 PM)

    The Knicks have invited former Florida State guard Xavier Rathan-Mayes to training camp, according to the Florida State Seminoles website.

  • [SNY Knicks] Nene uses Instagram post to tease Carmelo Anthony to Rockets
    (Tuesday, July 11, 2017 12:00:29 PM)

    Rockets C Nene added more fuel to Knicks F Carmelo Anthony possibly joining him in Houston after posting an intriguing Instagram picture.

  • [SNY Knicks] New York Sports Today: Knicks plan to move forward with Steve Mills as president
    (Tuesday, July 11, 2017 9:36:20 AM)

  • [SNY Knicks] Knicks plan to keep Steve Mills as team president
    (Tuesday, July 11, 2017 8:56:22 AM)

    The Knicks plan to move forward with Steve Mills as team president, per NY Post’s Marc Berman.

  • [NY Newsday] Can Knicks still add elite point guard after giving Ron Baker reported $8.9M deal?
    (Tuesday, July 11, 2017 6:42:00 PM)

    Could the Knicks’ starting point guard this coming season be an undrafted player out of Wichita State who barely slid onto the roster last year?

  • [NYDN] Baker’s 2-year, $8.9M deal leaves Knicks with just $1.5M to spend
    (Tuesday, July 11, 2017 9:23:12 PM)

    After signing Tim Hardaway Jr. to big money, the Knicks’ greatest asset in free agency was their full room exception.

  • [NYDN] Four reasons why Steve Mills will be next Knicks president
    (Tuesday, July 11, 2017 4:27:39 PM)

    There is a vacancy right now at the top of the Knicks front office, waiting for Steve Mills to step in and replace his former boss.

  • [NYDN] Carmelo’s ex-teammate Nene stirs Rockets trade rumor on Instagram
    (Tuesday, July 11, 2017 7:57:58 AM)

    Did Nene spill the beans or was this wishful thinking?

  • [NYPost] Knicks use almost all their money on Ron Baker
    (Tuesday, July 11, 2017 12:12:50 PM)

    Hey, know any veteran point guards who want to work cheap? Real cheap? The Knicks have about $1.5 million left in cap room after agreeing to a two-year, $8.9 million contract with Ron Baker, a deal confirmed by league sources

  • [NYPost] Hawks will miss the version of Tim Hardaway Jr. they created
    (Tuesday, July 11, 2017 10:24:07 AM)

    LAS VEGAS – In Tim Hardaway Jr.’s two years in Atlanta, the Hawks say he grew up first as a person and a professional, then as a player. Now the Knicks will be the ones benefiting from his new maturity. “We wanted to work something out with him … [but] I’m just happy for him,’’…

  • [NYPost] Carmelo’s Rockets pal just lit up trade speculation on Instagram
    (Tuesday, July 11, 2017 6:42:42 AM)

    Houston, we have tip-off. Speculation about Carmelo Anthony agreeing to jump ship to finish the Rockets’ imitation of a Big Three picked up steam Monday, after Anthony’s former teammate and current Rocket Nene posted an image on Instagram showing a Photoshopped Anthony in a Rockets uniform, saying in a caption that he “can’t wait” to…

  • [ESPN] Source: Knicks sign Baker to 2-yr., $8.9M deal
    (Tuesday, July 11, 2017 4:09:16 PM)

    Source: Knicks sign Baker to 2-yr., $8.9M deal

  • 293 comments on “Knicks Morning News (2017.07.12)

    1. Frank

      We’ll be lucky if we sniff anything near that level of production with Ron “Scrappy Doo” Baker and the 19-year old kid Frank Nkilitina running the point next year. We took a position that was a position of weakness and managed to substantially downgrade it. Rose and Jennings aren’t GOOD point guards at the NBA level, but they ARE point guards at the NBA level. Baker isn’t, and my guess is that right now Ntilikina isn’t. Point guard is going to be a black hole for the 2017-2018 Knicks.

      The one thing I can hope for is that the defense at the 1 will be so much better than last year that it’ll sort of be a wash. in addition, we’ll be playing an actual NBA offense presumably, which might make other guys like KP and THJ better than the corresponding positions last year.

      The most maddening thing about the Ron Baker thing to me is this —

      we renounced Baker’s qualifying offer (Which would have made him a RFA) so that we could clear room to overpay THJ by probably $3MM/year at least. If we had even made THJ a moderately overpaid 4/64 offer (even keeping the poison pills) that ATL still definitely wouldn’t have matched, we would have had right-of-first-refusal rights on Baker, thereby making it unnecessary to give him 300% of his market rate and a player option (not that it was necessary anyway).

      The depths of Mills’s incompetence is astounding. I guess he just REALLY wanted THJ back.

      Re: KCP – I think statisitcally at least his D is overrated and his offense isn’t great. I think it’s fine that he and THJ make the same $. Nice gig to get $18MM to play/live in LA, play tons of minutes, go back into UFA next year.

    2. Totes McGoats

      Re: KCP – I think statisitcally at least his D is overrated and his offense isn’t great. I think it’s fine that he and THJ make the same $. Nice gig to get $18MM to play/live in LA, play tons of minutes, go back into UFA next year

      I was just about to bring KCP up. How do we feel about TH2’s deal now tgat KCP got a 1 yr 18 million deal from the Lakers? Yes, our Knicks ar HORRIBLE at asset management as evidenced by the numbers TH2 & Baker signed for, but I think TH2 is better than KCP. We probably could have signed TH2 & Baker for less, but this is how you build a young developing roster. At the moment they aren’t the most talented, but hasn’t everyone been screaming for young guys to rebuild with? I also think that if we were still running the triangle, our offseason additions would look much better.

      Hopefully, Mills & company won’t hold out for too long to get as much as they can for Melo & Lee. The reality is, there’s not a great market out there for them. They need to hurry and move those guys and add a wing who can shoot and a pg who can get in the lane and also knock down outside shots. Maybe they should look into a Lee trade with OKC centered around McBuckets or find a 3rd team to take Reggie Jackson in a deal with Detroit. As far as Melo is concerned, I don’t care if we hafta take back Anderson and Ariza or get Portland involved and take back Turner and a pick. Both trades reduce our cap. A deal for Anderson and Ariza also opens up the floor should Hornacek move KP to the 5. Not the ideal trades, but probably the best offers we are gonna see for Melo.

    3. Brian Cronin

      We probably could have signed TH2 & Baker for less, but this is how you build a young developing roster.

      It really, really isn’t. There’s a huge disconnect there.

      As far as Melo is concerned, I don’t care if we hafta take back Anderson and Ariza

      It won’t be Ariza. If Ariza was on the table, the deal would probably be done already. Ariza has a ton of trade value nowadays.

    4. Brian Cronin

      we renounced Baker’s qualifying offer (Which would have made him a RFA) so that we could clear room to overpay THJ by probably $3MM/year at least. If we had even made THJ a moderately overpaid 4/64 offer (even keeping the poison pills) that ATL still definitely wouldn’t have matched, we would have had right-of-first-refusal rights on Baker, thereby making it unnecessary to give him 300% of his market rate and a player option (not that it was necessary anyway).

      It really was a special kind of incompetence. A uniquely shitty deal.

    5. Zanzibar

      Phil expertly executed a terrible strategic plan.
      Mills is incompetently executing a sound strategic plan.

      Example: that Baker contract could result in Dotson taking a 1 year min deal and then hitting the free market. The Dotson negotiations started I think a week ago and there’s still no contract. That might mean he wants more than 1.4m/year NYK are able to offer. Knicks shouldn’t be in this position; they could have split the room exception something like 2.3m/year for Dotson on a 4 year deal and 2m/year for Baker. Dotson’s not your typical 2nd round pick, especially after his Summer League performance. His 3FG% will make him attractive to more teams – look how long Morrow’s been in the league.

    6. Brian Cronin

      Dotson would still be restricted, at least, if he became a free agent next year.

    7. Reyalblue

      So a sign and trade of Baker as part of a Melo package would not have been totally impossible once he became an unrestricted free agent. The new CBA allows for a team’s own free agent to be signed and immediately traded within 48 hours to a specific team. This would have made Baker’s inflated signing at least a bit more understandable if it was to make numbers match up. But under the CBA, the player has to be signed to a minimum 3 year contract which is not possible with the mid level exception.

      So either Mills and Dolan truly want to keep Baker and think he has potential on par with the guys drafted in the lottery or someone screwed up and didn’t read the fine print on the CBA sign and trade rules.

    8. Z-man

      Look, I’m not going to defend the valuation of the signings. As Brian pointed out, they are indefensible.

      But at the same time, it has never been as clear that the direction of the team has changed to valuing youth, athleticism, and most importantly, playing the right way. Ron Baker may suck, but he going to play team ball and do everything possible not to suck. TH2’s pedigree didn’t keep him out of the d-league, where he took his medicine and came back with a vengeance.

      And if by chance we do suck, we have a lottery pick to ponder, unlike after the blunders of the past.

      So I’m looking forward to rooting for this team, irrespective of these overpays. I’m much more excited about the youth movement than I am bummed about the amount of the signings.

    9. Ingmarrrr

      Dotson would still be restricted, at least, if he became a free agent next year.

      And then he’ll be equal to or better than TH2 and Atlanta would give him 4×80 just to spite us. We’ll match, obviously.

    10. Totes McGoats

      @3
      BC,
      I should have elaborated on that thought. While the talent in the strategy and the dollars aren’t ideal, the strategy of acquiring, retaining, and developing young talent is the right move. That’s what I was thinking. My bad. I didn’t mean overpaying for young talent that isn’t quite there. So, at least we’re finally targeting youth and development opportunities.

    11. Brian Cronin

      And then he’ll be equal to or better than TH2 and Atlanta would give him 4×80 just to spite us. We’ll match, obviously.

      Luckily, he’d be limited to the MLE (which is still a lot of money, of course, but still). But yeah, always best to get these guys signed to cheap long-term deals quick-like.

    12. Brian Cronin

      I should have elaborated on that thought. While the talent in the strategy and the dollars aren’t ideal, the strategy of acquiring, retaining, and developing young talent is the right move. That’s what I was thinking. My bad. I didn’t mean overpaying for young talent that isn’t quite there. So, at least we’re finally targeting youth and development opportunities.

      Sure, I definitely agree with that. It’s like Zanzibar noted – Mills’ basic plan for the team is smart, but he’s going about it like a moron.

    13. Ntilakilla

      Our youngsters are as bright an under 25 group as you’ll find in this league sans Philly, Milwaukee and maybe Boston. To say they aren’t enough to get excited about is pretty pessimistic.

    14. Sir Robin

      My first reaction to Mills signing TH2 had nothing to do with the contract, although I think of course we got fleeced again. It’s a mistake I see from many people who are in over their head-grabbing for the person or thing they are familiar with.
      My second reaction to reading these posts is that many of the KB posters are much more qualified to run the Knicks, exhibiting intricate understandings of the Cap, of advanced metrics and of the value of each and every dollar and roster slot. For example, TCB re Dotson BEFORE Baker.

    15. Hubert

      Not to take away from the hilarious comments about the Ron Baker signing but just thought I should mention that judging from watching and mainly reading a bunch of stuff on the Vegas Summer League the 2 guys who have gotten the most praise so far are Dennis Smith Jr and Donovan Mitchell. But I’m sure Frank won’t make us regret drafting him instead of either of them…

      I think we all have to come to grips with the fact that even if Frank is the better pick over the long term, the guys behind him are more likely to make an immediate impact.

      In addition to being 18 and having the most serious learning curve (America and the NBA), he’s tall. Kevin Pelton had a great bit on tall pgs vs short ones recently. Basically the short ones (Lillard, Stoudemire, Smith Jr) tend to produce at 90% of their peak by the time they are 23. Taller ones (Strickland, Payton, Cassell, Frank) peak much later.

      http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/19525455/kevin-pelton-weekly-mailbag-including-point-guard-career-arcs

    16. Hubert

      This is why I didn’t want Frank, to be honest. I don’t think the Knicks (neither the front office nor the fan base) are built to be patient. I honestly expect some other team to reap the best years of Frank’s career.

      The most likely scenario, knowing everything we know about the Knicks, is that we trade Frank by the time he’s 21/22, when his career has been underwhelming so far, and we trade him as part of a package for some stupid overpriced veteran like Melo, and Frank goes on to be a very good PG by the time he’s 24 and we regret the decision forever.

    17. Totes McGoats

      I think another big question mark along with the TH2 and Baker deals is the decision to Xavier Rathan-Mayes a camp invite over Artis. If we don’t get a wing back in a Melo or Lee trade, we are gonna need another SF in camp. Besides, we already have Baker and Randle..we don’t need another undersized 2 that has to play the 1 because of it. And we have Dotson, Lee, and TH2 at SG plus Ntilikina possibly at both guard spots. Hell..I’d rather see Jaramaz get the invite…or Labeyrie. What the fucky-fuck-fuck? I know it’s only an invite, but it’s still a waste of a spot when we could be developing someone at a position of need.

    18. plenty

      Yes, but they’re not so exciting that we need to preemptively hand out contracts above current market value. I’m all for finding silver linings but these two recent signings are incorrigible.

      Having a lot of young players is only one part, you still have the job left to do of building a cost effective roster with role players. Not really seeing much there to get gassed about – mills seems to outsmart himself with the decisions he’s made so far.

    19. Ntilakilla

      Yes, but they’re not so exciting that we need to preemptively hand out contracts above current market value. I’m all for finding silver linings but these two recent signings are incorrigible.

      Stop conflating one thing with another. I get that our FO is a mess. But I refuse to allow it to sour the fact that we’ve had some really good drafts and a bit of young talent to get excited over.

    20. thenoblefacehumper

      Xavier Rathan-Mayes sucks at basketball. I saw him play a lot in college and literally didn’t think he belonged in the ACC, let alone the NBA. Small potatoes compared to everything else, but yeah. Total waste of an invite.

      Anyway, I still can’t get over the combination of:
      1) Paying Ron Baker 500% of what he deserves
      2) Making sure there’s a 0% chance that turns out to be a good decision

      It’s more confusing than the thought process behind the Noah and THJ deals. I simply have no idea how one could come to the conclusion that this was not idiotic.

    21. Brian Cronin

      The only thing I can even vaguely consider it……nope, I got nothing.

      What I was going to say was that perhaps they were just very confident that Baker would grow into a good player, but they were also desperate to get THJ, so they felt it was worth over-paying Baker later in order to get the money now to pay THJ (and since Baker will still be a restricted free agent next year, they can keep him no matter what if he opts out and they want him back). The problem with that take, though, is that if you’re that confident in Baker’s abilities, why risk losing him at all when you could have reduced the THJ deal to just, what, 4 years/$67 million and still have room to keep Baker on his earlier, cheaper deal.

      So…yeah, just pure incompetence.

    22. plenty

      You can get as excited as you want to be lol, i’m not going to stop you. You were coming off as a bit too optimistic so i had to be sure you weren’t completely drunk on kool-aid.

    23. Brian Cronin

      By the way, here’s Berman on the Baker signing:

      Baker getting full room exception , now more than $4M, is more surprising than Hardaway pact. Hornacek likely sees Baker as starting PG

      Yep, I am thinking more and more that Mills is Berman’s guy.

    24. Ingmarrrr

      Does any of you guys think some agents paying GM’s to give huge contracts to their clients is a possibility?
      I’d hate it if this were the case but there’s a lot of money involved and it may explain some of the awful contracts handed out through the years.

    25. Donnie Walsh

      Out of 620 possible votes for Rookie of the Year that year, MCW got 569…Giannis got 1 (THJ got 23 votes, including one person who voted him 1st overall).

      Steve Mills gets to vote for ROY too??

    26. plenty

      That’s possible. Corruption knows no bounds especially in the NBA which has a history…

      It would certainly explain the recent signings, because I’ve yet to see a rational defense of the amount of $ spent for these “exciting” young players.

    27. Brian Cronin

      That’s possible. Corruption knows no bounds especially in the NBA which has a history…

      It would certainly explain the recent signings, because I’ve yet to see a rational defense of the amount of $ spent for these “exciting” young players.

      If there’s one thing Dolan is free with, it’s money, so I don’t think Mills is hurting for cash.

    28. Brian Cronin

      Do you think its worth overpaying Ron Baker if him starting at PG assures we get a top pick next year? :)

      That’s what is so incompetent about this – even if you like Baker to help them tank this year, they’re locked into him for next year, too!

    29. swiftandabundant

      @ 33 – I thought it was a 2 year deal and the second year was a player option? Is it 3 years and the third is a player option?

      I actually like that better. I like baker and I don’t care about the money amount. Its 5 million dollars a year.

    30. Donnie Walsh

      Does any of you guys think some agents paying GM’s to give huge contracts to their clients is a possibility?
      I’d hate it if this were the case but there’s a lot of money involved and it may explain some of the awful contracts handed out through the years.

      There’s a famous story about how Brian Cardinal got his 6 year deal:

      “Memphis owner Michael Heisley, frustrated by general manager Jerry West’s lack of activity, walked into West’s office one day and asked why he hadn’t signed anyone yet. So an exasperated West picked up his phone, called Cardinal’s agent and offered the mid-level on the spot. Then he turned to Heisley and said “There, you happy now?”

    31. DRed

      I think what Cronin is saying is that if Baker is bad enough to help us tank he’s going to opt in and we’ll be stuck with him

    32. Donnie Walsh

      That’s what is so incompetent about this – even if you like Baker to help them tank this year, they’re locked into him for next year, too!

      Not if he opts out and goes to a rival tanking team. (He could command $10mil+ if he can single handedly net teams top 3 picks… he’ll be the Good Luck Chuck of NBA players)

    33. Hubert

      But at the same time, it has never been as clear that the direction of the team has changed to valuing youth, athleticism

      You’re dead wrong. This was the direction under Isiah Thomas. He valued the same things and made it very clear. And like Mills, he overpaid for those attributes.

      Mills is well on his way to ushering in another Isiah Thomas era. All we need is for him to start trading unprotected picks for more young, athletic, one way players.

      I don’t think we’re going to have wait very long. I bet we trade our 2018 pick before the trade deadline.

    34. JK47

      If you’re grossly overpaying the “young players” on your roster, you might as well be overpaying veterans. There’s no difference. Hardaway is extremely unlikely to outperform that contract, and the odds of Ron Baker outperforming his contract are infinitesimal, and even if by some miracle he does outperform that contract he has a player option so kiss him goodbye.

      If you have a whole roster full of players who play exactly to the value of your contracts, you have a .500 team. Any players that outperform those contracts bring you above .500. Any players who underperform their contracts put you in a hole. It’s very simple. This is a zero-sum game. Steve Mills doesn’t seem to understand this and neither do a lot of the posters on this site.

    35. Hubert

      Mills is incompetently executing a sound strategic plan.

      Also dead wrong. This is basketball 101 and I seriously can’t believe this still has to be explained.

      Trying to turn a 31 win team into a capped out 40-42 win team is absolutely positively 100,000% NOT a sound strategic plan.

      Unless your goal is to get a lifetime contract from James Dolan. Which, frankly, is probably Mills’ goal. So yeah, he’s doing right by himself, sure.

    36. MSA

      Look on the bright side. At least we aren’t arguing about Grant any more.

      Well, he is a RFA next summer.

    37. ClashFan

      @27:

      By the way, here’s Berman on the Baker signing:

      Baker getting full room exception , now more than $4M, is more surprising than Hardaway pact. Hornacek likely sees Baker as starting PG

      Yep, I am thinking more and more that Mills is Berman’s guy.

      And possibly setting up Hornacek as the scapegoat if Baker under performs, as he likely will.

    38. DRed

      @wojespn 2m2 minutes ago

      Sources: Knicks, Rockets working on Carmelo Anthony trade scenarios that include four-team deals. Sides motivated but no agreement imminent.

    39. Brian Cronin

      And possibly setting up Hornacek as the scapegoat if Baker under performs, as he likely will.

      Good call. These guys put more thought into who they plan to scapegoat than they do into the contracts they hand out.

    40. Brian Cronin

      Sources: Knicks, Rockets working on Carmelo Anthony trade scenarios that include four-team deals. Sides motivated but no agreement imminent.

      Work it, Morey! The only way that the Knicks can get a good deal is if they have a good GM on another team work it out for them.

    41. alsep73

      FOUR teams? So we have to figure out who would be willing to take on Ryan Anderson but doesn’t have assets the Knicks would themselves accept?

    42. Hubert

      There is nothing inherently good about having a player who is in his early 20’s, especially if he’s earning much more than he’s worth.

    43. Brian Cronin

      FOUR teams? So we have to figure out who would be willing to take on Ryan Anderson but doesn’t have assets the Knicks would themselves accept?

      Morey’s going full Stone Soup with this shit! :) He’s trying to turn a red paper clip into a house. If anyone can do it, it’s him.

    44. Totes McGoats

      If you’re grossly overpaying the “young players” on your roster, you might as well be overpaying veterans. There’s no difference. Hardaway is extremely unlikely to outperform that contract, and the odds of Ron Baker outperforming his contract are infinitesimal, and even if by some miracle he does outperform that contract he has a player option so kiss him goodbye

      Agreed. But I do think Baker has a better chance of outperforming his contract than TH2. All Baker has to do is shoot better from deep amd that will bring his value way up. He already plays smart, competes on defense, and leaves it all on the floor every night. I don’t think Baker is very good, but I’m a huge fan of his. He could have played on the 90’s Knicks. Put him in the right role and allow the game to slow down for him- we have a good rotation piece in Baker. But if we continue to throw him to the wolves as a starting PG, it’s gonna make him look worse than he is- until he grows out of it. As a combo guard off of the bench, he’s fine. He just needs to bring that shooting percentage up. His ceiling is likely between Dellavedova and Haywoode Workman, and I’m fine with that at his current price.

    45. JK47

      This is completely negated when you overpay for the young player!!!!

      At his salary, Tim Hardaway Jr is a LOSING PLAYER. He puts you in the hole. He would have to be a $17M per year player to be a break-even, .500 player.

      Ron Baker is a losing player at a MINIMUM SALARY. He was worse than replacement level last year. For him to earn a $5M salary and even break even, he would have to improve exponentially.

      You could survive moves like this if they were made in a vacuum, and if the people running the team understood player valuation in general but just made a couple of mistakes, but that does not appear to be the case here. Steve Mills is the kind of guy who will repeatedly make moves that other GMs are too smart to make. He’s the sucker at the poker table.

    46. JK47

      He could have played on the 90’s Knicks.

      My ass.

      Whose minutes would Ron Baker be taking on the 90’s Knicks? John Starks? Hubert Davis? Derek Harper? Doc Rivers? Greg Anthony?

      Tony Campbell was a million times better player than Ron Baker will probably ever be, and that guy couldn’t crack the rotation.

    47. Sir Robin

      For Dolan and his general, Mills the regular season is cake in the form of 41 sellouts or near sellouts. The grand strategy of the two-headed dummy is just to land a 7th or 8th playoff seed (or higher), which is the icing on the cake in the form of the cha-ching of at least 2 home playoff games. (They happily recall how JVG turned an 8th seed into a run to the NBA finals.) Anything more for Dolan/ Gen.Mills is pure gravy on top of the icing on the cake, which the 2-headed dummy will feast on. They don’t have ANY expectations or aspirations of a title.

    48. Donnie Walsh

      FOUR teams? So we have to figure out who would be willing to take on Ryan Anderson but doesn’t have assets the Knicks would themselves accept?

      So you’re saying there’s still a chance that we end up with Omar Asik?! Nice!

    49. Totes McGoats

      JK,
      I’m not saying he would have taken someone’s minutes or better than the guys you listed. Only that the way he plays would have earned him minutes on those teams had he been on the roster.

    50. JK47

      Only that the way he plays would have earned him minutes on those teams had he been on the roster.

      And I’m telling you he would not have earned minutes on that roster, regardless of how hard he tries. Those were an excellent team, made up of excellent players. Shitty players like Ron Baker didn’t earn minutes on those teams. Maybe he would have gotten garbage time, Bo Kimble type minutes. He absolutely would not have been a rotation player on those 90’s teams, would absolutely not have gotten anything other than token, end-of-roster-guy type minutes.

    51. Ntilakilla

      You’re dead wrong. This was the direction under Isiah Thomas. He valued the same things and made it very clear. And like Mills, he overpaid for those attributes.

      Actually, Isaiah made his moves in a completely different fashion by trading picks to acquire his “youth.” Stephon Marbury, Eddie Curry, Jamal Crawford, Maurice Taylor, Jerome Williams, Zach Randolph, Steve Francis, etc. were the youngsters he wanted to build the Knicks around. We traded a lot of draft capital to get these misfits. Say what you want about Mills, but he’s been part of a FO that is content to ride with players we drafted (KP, Willy, Frank, Dotoson) or picked up as UDFA (Baker and Kuz).

    52. swiftandabundant

      Man ya’ll need to seriously chill until a Melo deal is worked out. We really have no complete picture here until Melo (and to a lesser extent Lee) is gone.

      I like Baker. I like Hardaway. Right now we got Willie H, KP, Frank, Hardaway, and Baker as our young guys. 4 of those are slated to be our starters for the future. One is slated to hopefully be a good bench piece.

      Also, just another perspective. Phil absolutely poisoned the water when it came to free agents coming here. I mean, it was always a tough sell when we suck and the media is out for fresh blood. But Phil’s comments, getting into feuds with LeBron, trashing ex players, etc…it really hurt us in the free agent market for the foreseeable future. Maybe this is Mill’s way of repairing that damage with agents? Giving a little bit more, giving the player options. Rewarding a young, hard working player we found from the scrap heap with a nice contract. Just saying…you can freak out about it if you want and hey, maybe we’re heading into Isiah Era 2.0…but this could be a small way to let players and agents know that The Knicks are willing to do right by them and the Phil era is over.

      Just another perspective. Ya’ll seriously need to chill out. Freaking out this much is not healthy. And we don’t know the complete picture yet until Melo is moved.

    53. Bruno Almeida

      I think the optimistic narrative about “well, at least we’re going young” is missing one point: the Knicks could have gone young for much cheaper, that the issue.

      you really want Ron Baker to start? that’s fine, give him a 2 year 3 mil contract with no option and let him start. If he’s good, you still have him under control for one more year and can decide later what to do.

      You think THJ will progress a lot and be a key player for the team? why give him a player option then? so we have to re-sign him a year earlier for even more money if he’s actually great?

      that’s the problem, is not about the players (even though there’s many reasons to believe neither will be great and Ron specially hasn’t shown literally anything so far, theres bound to be at least 50 D-League players who try hard and run around).

    54. swiftandabundant

      @ 61 – maybe. But you’re also ignoring how toxic the Knicks situation is with free agents and players because of all the shit talking Phil did against Melo, KP, LeBron, former players, etc. Maybe this is needed to smooth things over.

    55. Ntilakilla

      I think the optimistic narrative about “well, at least we’re going young” is missing one point: the Knicks could have gone young for much cheaper, that the issue.

      No one is debating this point. We get it. The front office is piss poor at valuating talent price. Mills is overestimating the money worth of one guy we drafted in Tim Hardaway Jr. and another we signed as UDFA in Ron Baker. But he’s not Isaiah Thomas. If anything he’s the opposite in the sense that he’s falling too in love with dudes we scouted out of the NCAA and overpaying them. Isiah was a dude who fell in love with other team players, singularly overvaluing volume scoring potential, and gave away lots of draft capital to do so.

    56. 2FOR18

      It’s groundhog day everyday in knicksland, where our front office, and apparently most fans, do not understand basic economics and asset management. We are doomed unless the league steps in or Morey figures out a way to get us some value for melo.

    57. Brian Cronin

      It’s groundhog day everyday in knicksland, where our front office, and apparently most fans, do not understand basic economics and asset management. We are doomed unless the league steps in or Morey figures out a way to get us some value for melo.

      At least they do have Morey working on the deal for them!

    58. JK47

      I’m sure Steve Mills is going to knock this Melo deal out of the park. I’m sure he’s going to take a situation where he has zero leverage and pull some rabbit out of a hat.

    59. the don nelson era

      Inasmuch as Mills seems to share a teambuilding philosophy with Isiah, he at least must have said no to an offer. I’m not sure Isiah ever said no or held out for something better.

    60. d-mar

      It does seem extremely hard to believe that the Ron Baker market was a booming one.

      Even the Jazz didn’t seem to have any interest, and they’re a natural fit for Scrappy Doo.

    61. ClashFan

      C’mon. Steve Mills is nowhere near as bad as Isiah…

      Yet.
      :-)

      Seriously, Isiah was the deepest, darkest, pit of despair. Mills has overpaid, badly, twice in a week. This does not bode well, but the Mills pit is not nearly that deep. Maybe the Melo deal will turn out okay, maybe not. We’ll see.

    62. Brian Cronin

      I’m sure Steve Mills is going to knock this Melo deal out of the park. I’m sure he’s going to take a situation where he has zero leverage and pull some rabbit out of a hat.

      He has the leverage that Morey wants Melo, so Morey will do the rest of the dealing for him. Morey once turned Jeremy Lamb, Kevin Martin and Kyle Lowry into James Harden, so he might be able to salvage something out of this mess for the Knicks.

    63. Hubert

      Actually, Isaiah made his moves in a completely different fashion by trading picks to acquire his “youth.” Stephon Marbury, Eddie Curry, Jamal Crawford, Maurice Taylor, Jerome Williams, Zach Randolph, Steve Francis, etc. were the youngsters he wanted to build the Knicks around. We traded a lot of draft capital to get these misfits. Say what you want about Mills, but he’s been part of a FO that is content to ride with players we drafted (KP, Willy, Frank, Dotoson) or picked up as UDFA (Baker and Kuz).

      Mills isn’t even technically in charge yet. Isiah didn’t trade his first pick on day 1. Give Mills time. The sharks are circling.

      What do you guys think vegas would put the odds of us trading our 2018 pick at?

    64. Bruno Almeida

      @64

      people are debating precisely that point when they argue it doesn’t matter that it was an overpay, at least it’s young players. Yes, the overpay and the unnecessary clauses do matter.

      it’s just you who’s engaged in this bizarre “well at least (insert current POBO) is not worse than Isiah and here’s why”.

      yeah we get it, hes not Isiah 2.0, but as I’ve learned in my life, misery can have many faces.

    65. Brian Cronin

      Mills isn’t even technically in charge yet. Isiah didn’t trade his first pick on day 1.

      While true, it was really soon after. He got the gig three days before Christmas and traded his first first round pick (that ultimately was used on Gordon Heyward years later) four days after New Year’s Day.

    66. d-mar

      Ladies and gentleman, in this corner, Daryl Mo-o-o-o-rey!

      And in this corner, Steve Mi-i-i-i-ls!

      (Bell rings, Morey approaches Mills, Mills goes down for a 10 count KO)

    67. Hubert

      Phil absolutely poisoned the water when it came to free agents coming here….Maybe this is Mill’s way of repairing that damage with agents? Giving a little bit more, giving the player options.

      The hits keep coming.

    68. Z-man

      You guys are all gonna feel silly when Timmy performs like a player worth exactly what he is getting paid and Baker plays like a guy worth 5 mill a year, i.e. just good enough so that no one cares if he opts out or not. The flawed assumption here is that they are stuck at the level of play they were at last year. These guys are not Steph Marbury or Eddy Curry or Jerome James or Renaldo Balkman or Andrea Bargnani. They’re not even Zach, or Jamal, both of whom went on to earn their salaries. These are role models for how to improve even after age 22. This outrage and comparison to Isiah’s team-building strategy is truly off the deep end. They are probably overpaid by a combined 5 million a year. Drop in the bucket.

    69. Z-man

      Remember the outrage over the player options for Afflalo and Derrick? Both proved to be totally inconsequential.

    70. Mike R

      This is like the fourth day in a row that we heard the rumors that a melo deal is all but done by the end of the day.

    71. Brian Cronin

      Remember the outrage over the player options for Afflalo and Derrick? Both proved to be totally inconsequential.

      The reason they were such stupid signings was because they were inconsequential. They should have been using their cap room on gaining actual assets instead of moronic “best case scenario they leave after a year” free agents that did nothing for the future of the team. The same offseason that the Knicks used their cap space to add Afflalo and Williams to just waste time for a season, the Sixers used the same amount of cap space to get a future Sacramento first round pick. Man, were those signings dumb.

    72. Bruno Almeida

      well, I hope this is the season you are finally right about your predictions for this team, Z-man :)

    73. Jack Bauer

      Z Man pinch hitting for reub, nice job of raising our spirits with something positive

      So far Mills seems like a complete moron in basketball terms, but he has a chance to somewhat redeem himself with the Melo trade IF he doesn’t fuck it up. He has to insist on a 2019 or 2020 first round pick coming to NY in any deal.

    74. JK47

      You guys are all gonna feel silly when Timmy performs like a player worth exactly what he is getting paid and Baker plays like a guy worth 5 mill a year, i.e. just good enough so that no one cares if he opts out or not.

      I’ve had Team Optimist tell me I was gonna feel silly a lot of times, and so far it hasn’t happened yet.

    75. Bruno Almeida

      Woj has said now that the deal is not imminent, both teams are still “motivated” but still in the process of talking about it…

      damn, Melo is staying isn’t he?

    76. Brian Cronin

      He has to insist on a 2019 or 2020 first round pick coming to NY in any deal.

      I imagine they will get a pick, but it’ll probably be a Houston 2020 pick which isn’t exactly inspiring.

    77. ClashFan

      @78
      I’ll bite. I do remember the outrage at the time, but I was not one of those. I saw those as okay “hold the fort” type signings. They weren’t good, but both were vet guys very likely to opt out after a year, as they did. Both were worth taking a flyer on.

      Neither of these new deals is going to see the opt out. Both will likely be opting in.

      I’m actually not really outraged by the player options (rather, I find them kind of silly, though, esp. with regards to the undrafted, unremarkable Baker getting one after only one year in the league). Rather, money is being burned that doesn’t need to be.

      THJ is not a “hold the fort” guy. Clearly he’s part of the core and will be taking up serious cap space for 4 years.

      Baker? Yeah, 2 years/$4m probably gets it done. Sure, only 2 years, but Mills clearly does not value cap flexibility.

      Who knows, maybe the Melo traded will reclaim some cap space. If so, I’ll compliment Mills for that. If.

    78. DRed

      Steve Mills has been a high level NBA executive for decades and he decided to give a 2 year 9 million dollar contract with a player option to a guy with no market value and no leverage. He’s not about to suddenly learn.

    79. Mike R

      Yeh a first round pick from Houston in 2019 is Nice and all but let’s not pretend it’s going to be in the lottery or even top 20.

    80. Brian Cronin

      Yeh a first round pick from Houston in 2019 is Nice and all but let’s not pretend it’s going to be in the lottery or even top 20.

      I believe they can’t trade a 2019, right? I think they have to remove protections on the 2018 pick they sent in the CP3 trade so that they could even trade a 2020 pick.

    81. ClashFan

      If there are other teams involved, a pick could come from there.

      But frankly, just to get Melo off the team and get even a late 1st rounder in the deal seems good to me, esp. if a bit of salary space could be reclaimed for future use.

    82. Zanzibar

      Woj has said now that the deal is not imminent, both teams are still “motivated” but still in the process of talking about it…damn, Melo is staying isn’t he?

      I’ve got plenty of tinfoil hats in stock. Ntilikilla? Ready to reconsider my Melo/MSG conspiracy theory?

      I wrote a 4th team would have to be involved (if Portland were the 3rd team) when the Melo trade talks started and gave Nets as a candidate. I think a deal should be there in that scenario but it’s always complicated when 4 teams are involved.

    83. thenamestsam

      Even in Z-Man’s rosy predictions world, they’re still overpaid by $5M a year combined! Even in the eyes of the most deluded guy around we’re still overpaying by 6%. Ladies and gentleman, your New York Knicks!

    84. JK47

      Even in Z-Man’s rosy predictions world, they’re still overpaid by $5M a year combined! Even in the eyes of the most deluded guy around we’re still overpaying by 6%. Ladies and gentleman, your New York Knicks!

      Giving out above-market contracts in the hopes that those players improve and actually live up to the contracts is a suicidal strategy. The Knicks just basically spent $22M of their cap in players who will very likely nudge them below the .500 mark. If you’re giving out $22M in contracts and you get $17M in production you’re in the hole.

      I just don’t see why this is so hard to understand.

    85. Zanzibar

      Giving out above-market contracts in the hopes that those players improve and actually live up to the contracts is a suicidal strategy. The Knicks just basically spent $22M of their cap in players who will very likely nudge them below the .500 mark. If you’re giving out $22M in contracts and you get $17M in production you’re in the hole.

      I just don’t see why this is so hard to understand.

      When you’ve been wandering in the desert for a long time and your body and spirit is parched, camel piss tastes like Perrier to you.

    86. Totes McGoats

      Now that Houston has PJ Tucker, I think they should want to include Ariza in the Melo deal as Melo and Tucker are more interchangeable at forward than Melo and Ariza would be. With Capela in the middle, and Nene backing him up- it sounds like the perfect lineup for D’Antoni’s brand of basketball. Unless we’re getting back a young asset or good pick in return, I think Mills should focus on trading with just Houston. A deal can be done, as Houston is not far off from being able to compete with GS. Hell, Mills can even throw Randle in to sweeten the deal as they currently lack a reasonable back up for CP3. We might even still be able to get a pick in that deal.

    87. plenty

      Ace analogy Zanzibar…earlier in the thread the phrase “Don’t piss on my leg and tell me it’s raining” came to mind.

      …come to think of it, i think i have a perrier in my fridge from months ago. fingers crossed that it will taste normal.

      One small hope to cleanse the stink of the past two weeks is for this Houston deal (why do i have a feeling Melo will stay put?) to somehow be a net positive for us. Thank god there’s more than one team involved, Morey negotiating with Mills is a scary thing to picture.

    88. latke

      But BC, that’s about overarching strategy, not the player option per se.

      It’s about understanding that 1+1 deals with player options are the equivalent of buying lotto tickets that have a stipulation: “If you win, you must forfeit all your winnings.” It just so happened that the Afflalo lotto ticket actually had a 0% of winning and while the Derrick Williams ticket had a small chance of winning, the Knicks lost.

    89. xcat01

      Here’s how I see a 4 team deal going down:
      Houston – Melo
      Nets – Anderson, Hartenstein, Taylor
      Portland – Lee, some trade fodder, Houston’s #1 pick 2020,
      Knicks – Harkless, JLin and $15M is cap relief maybe a couple second rounders

      But if Mills has his way we will throw in our 2018 1st round pick also

    90. Ntilakilla

      it’s just you who’s engaged in this bizarre “well at least (insert current POBO) is not worse than Isiah and here’s why”.

      Untrue. Read the thread. Its gotten to the point that multiple people are predicting Isaiah level catastrophe.

      Example 1: This was the direction under Isiah Thomas. He valued the same things and made it very clear. And like Mills, he overpaid for those attributes.

      Example 2: Mills isn’t even technically in charge yet. Isiah didn’t trade his first pick on day 1. Give Mills time. The sharks are circling. What do you guys think vegas would put the odds of us trading our 2018 pick at?

      I am not going to argue with anyone who bashes the TJH and Baker deals. But I think we’re getting out of control when we go down the road of predicting Isaiah Thomas level catastrophe. Mills is valuing his picks far differently.

    91. Zanzibar

      Re: MSG/Melo conspiracy theory: I’m starting to worry that Knicks might trade Noah/Kuz/Willy to Nets for Lin since Rondo appears to no longer be an option.

    92. Ntilakilla

      I’ve got plenty of tinfoil hats in stock. Ntilikilla? Ready to reconsider my Melo/MSG conspiracy theory?

      No.

    93. GoNyGoNyGo

      How do you all feel about Mills running the show now? Did running PJ out of town change anything for the better?

      Mills is valuing his picks far differently.

      @100 Please finish the sentence. Add the phrase “…than a sane basketball mind.” Please

    94. chrisk06811

      I don’t agree with giving Melo away for nothing. Nor do I think he should be benched or waived. if you can’t get a good deal now, take the risk and let him play. He may play better than he did last year, with a summer of rest, Phil gone, no triangle, etc. He doesnt’ have to play great, just same or better. His trade value improves a little as the length left on his deal decreases. Maybe mid way thru the year, Hou isn’t as good as they hoped, or someone gets hurt, etc, and a trade makes more sense then.

      I’m not sure why we are all sold that he is a locker room cancer. A lot of that shit was Phil talking. He’s not going to play D, but maybe he will decide to rebound again, especially if he gets more time at the 4. Plus, no Rose to dominate the ball.

      Maybe the line to Melo is, you want to get traded to a contender, then play hard.

    95. Hubert

      Steve Mills has been a high level NBA executive for decades and he decided to give a 2 year 9 million dollar contract with a player option to a guy with no market value and no leverage. He’s not about to suddenly learn.

      But it’s possible Ron Baker would’ve balked at 2 years, $6mm, no player option based on the way Phil treated Melo.

    96. Z-man

      JK, your entire premise is grounded in an assumption that they will not produce enough to justify their contracts in hindsight. I simply don’t buy that assumption. Your bet is the better bet, but far from a sure thing.

    97. GoldClub

      Steve Mills has taken an incredibly short period of time to prove himself a total and complete f@cking moron. I miss Phil.

    98. Z-man

      Latke, your analogy is false. There was almost no chance that either player would be a winner. The winning was getting the cap space back at the end of one year because both players had perceived value that was higher than their actual value. Dumb overarching strategy aside, the Knicks won on both contracts. Without the player option, they would have been stuck with both for 2 years instead of one.

    99. Hubert

      Read the thread. Its gotten to the point that multiple people are predicting Isaiah level catastrophe.

      Example 1: This was the direction under Isiah Thomas. He valued the same things and made it very clear. And like Mills, he overpaid for those attributes.

      Example 2: Mills isn’t even technically in charge yet. Isiah didn’t trade his first pick on day 1. Give Mills time. The sharks are circling. What do you guys think vegas would put the odds of us trading our 2018 pick at?

      I am not going to argue with anyone who bashes the TJH and Baker deals. But I think we’re getting out of control when we go down the road of predicting Isaiah Thomas level catastrophe. Mills is valuing his picks far differently.

      First of all, both examples are me, so it’s not multiple people.

      Secondly, the doesn’t even have the job yet and he’s already got the Hardaway contract and the Baker joke on his resume. It’s not crazy to predict catastrophe.

      Third, the one thing he’s said about his philosophy (i.e. that he values youth and athleticism enough to vastly overpay for them) is straight of Isiah’s playbook.

      Fourth, you have no idea how Mills values picks, and neither do any of us.

    100. JK47

      JK, your entire premise is grounded in an assumption that they will not produce enough to justify their contracts in hindsight.

      NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO.

      Simply justifying their contracts does not move the needle. That keeps you at .500. For these contracts to actually be good signings, signings that actually move your team from mediocrity to excellence, they need to OUTPERFORM THE CONTRACTS. Which is going to be difficult, since even you admit they were overpays.

      I’m going to go hit myself in the head with a frying pan now for some relief.

    101. Z-man

      In Ron’s case, the likely outcome is that he will opt out, but not be good enough to command an 8-digit salary. I doubt that he sucks so bad OR plays so well that we care very much whether he pots in or not.

      Timmy’s player option and especially the trade kicker are far more troubling, but even there, the highest likelihood is that he plays in a reasonable plus-minus range relative to his contract and whether he opts in or out doesn’t matter that much.

    102. JK47

      Z-Man, do you have access to some sort of high-level scouting database or something that tells you Ron Baker is not going to be a bad player? Because he was a fucking awful player at age 23. He shot .378 from the floor, and .267 from 3PT, giving him a woeful .431 eFG%. He got to the line 1.8 times per 36 minutes and shot an execrable .651 when he did get to the line, a miserable percentage for a shooting guard. He showed very little ability to handle point guard duties.

      The overwhelming evidence is that he can’t play at the NBA level.

    103. Z-man

      JK, not every player on even the great teams outperform their contracts. So long as these two guys live up to theirs, and guys like KP, Willy, Frank, etc outperform theirs, TH2 and Ron aren’t a problem. It’s the Noah’s, Melo’s and Lance’s and their combined 60 million in untradable and unearnable salary that has us below. 5oo. The two recent deals are small potatoes, and could actually work.

    104. thenoblefacehumper

      Dumb overarching strategy aside, the Knicks won on both contracts.

      They won 32 games instead of the 30-32 games they would’ve won if they didn’t sign either player and instead made the trade with the Kings. What exactly did they “win” with either contract? The cap space that never should’ve went to either player in the first place?

    105. ptmilo

      The fourth team was needed to move a particular player contract that neither the Knicks nor Rockets could or would accept in the deal, league sources said.

      This is probably Meyers Leonard? If it were Anderson the deal would not be far enough along for all this almost-almost-reporting. I feel bad for Morey. It’s hard to find a place for bad contracts when the Knicks are ruled out by construction.

    106. JK47

      JK, not every player on even the great teams outperform their contracts. So long as these two guys live up to theirs, and guys like KP, Willy, Frank, etc outperform theirs, TH2 and Ron aren’t a problem.

      You’re standing in a six-foot deep hole. Do you want to fill in the hole with some dirt, or do you want to dig the hole a foot deeper and declare that the last foot you just dug isn’t the problem?

    107. SW

      I have a theory as to what might be happening but I’m not sure how realistic it is. What if the Knicks already have a handshake agreement with Houston to trade Melo for Anderson and Capela. while obviously Houston would never do that deal in a vacuum, if CP3 demanded that they needed to get Melo or he wouldn’t come then they probably would have agreed to it. All the rumors seem to indicate that a deal is already in place and it is hard to come up with a deal that doesn’t include Capela that the Knicks would agree to.

      If it were the case then it would explain a lot of things. Melo demanded that Phil gets fired as part of the deal because he wouldn’t want Phil to gloat that he forced Melo out. The Knicks would be able to take back a salary from a third team as part of the deal hence the negotiations with Portland. From the Knicks perspective they would be priced out of free agency for three years so it makes sense to sign the best free agent who would come, this off season, which makes the Hardaway signing more defensible.

    108. ptmilo

      What if the Knicks already have a handshake agreement with Houston to trade Melo for Anderson and Capela. while obviously Houston would never do that deal in a vacuum, if CP3 demanded that they needed to get Melo or he wouldn’t come then they probably would have agreed to it.

      this did not happen. we are not getting ariza and we are damn well not getting capela.

    109. DRed

      Baker at 2 years $9M… or Galloway at 3 years $21M…

      For the Knicks? Baker, no question, but the real answer is neither.

    110. DRed

      It’s weird how certain everyone in the media is that Melo gets traded. I mean what if they can’t find a home for Anderson? He sucks and he’s got a bad contract.

      Edit: my take is that even discussing 4 team deals means they’re nowhere close to a deal

    111. latke

      Latke, your analogy is false. There was almost no chance that either player would be a winner. The winning was getting the cap space back at the end of one year because both players had perceived value that was higher than their actual value. Dumb overarching strategy aside, the Knicks won on both contracts. Without the player option, they would have been stuck with both for 2 years instead of one.

      Why are you comparing the contracts against the option of signing these players for two years? Why not instead ask, “did the chocie to sign these two players to these contracts help the Knicks at all vs. had they not signed anyone?”

      If the answer is is “no, it didn’t,” and further, “no it couldn’t have helped. There was no chance,” then surely there were some opportunities with that money that could have helped the Knicks.

    112. Frank

      Giving out above-market contracts in the hopes that those players improve and actually live up to the contracts is a suicidal strategy.

      Re: the Baker contract – I have zero justification for that.

      Re: the THJ contract — this one is problematic but much less so for me even though it has a lot more $$ attached. The question is whether the knicks’ scouts (who are good) REALLY loved this guy after his development in ATL, or whether Mills just likes flashy dunking guy. I’m hoping it was the former, because sometimes it’s not a bad thing to overpay in order to make sure you get YOUR GUY.

      I agree that the THJ contract was an overpay and sure, we have the luxury of venting here, but there ARE contracts out there that seemed like overpays and were found to be good deals eventually — two that come to mind immediately are Avery Bradley from 2014 and Mike Conley from 2011 or so (see articles ridiculing what turned out to be amazingly team-friendly contracts). So I’ll reserve judgment a tiny bit. (but yes, I think it was an overpay by probably at least 7MM total dollars).

      http://archive.boston.com/blogs/sports/columnists/kaufman/2014/07/celtics_avery_bradley_overpayment_lance_stephenson.html

      http://www.slamonline.com/nba/grizzlies-to-pay-mike-conley-45-million-over-5-years-seriously/

    113. JK47

      You honestly think a player can’t get better after age 23? Especially if he’s only played about half a regular season?

      Sure, it’s possible! Why give $9M guaranteed though to a guy who was very bad? I’ve said here before, I like Ron on the roster as a minimum salary guy, it’s better to take a flyer on a guy like that instead of giving the roster spot to Sasha because Triangle or something. $9M guaranteed though? That’s an expensive flyer for a guy who was pretty awful when he did actually play.

      Ron was so bad that he could get a lot better and STILL suck.

    114. DRed

      The problem with the Hardaway deal is it doesn’t make much sense even if it works out fairly well. Let’s say things break reasonably well for the Knicks, and Tim improves a bit more. That happens pretty regularly for guards his age, and let’s say his improvement to an acceptable defender is real, and not just Atlanta’s superior system (which is very possible). So you’ve got a pretty good wing player-above average, but not an all-star. That’s good, except we’ve already got one we’re paying a decent amount of money to. And neither one moves the needle that much. The difference between Tim and an averagish player (say Justin Holiday) is going to be a game or two. Maybe 3 if you’re really optimistic. That’s worth it if you’re trying to get homecourt through the majority of the playoffs, but not if it’s the difference between 36-38 wins.

    115. Ntilakilla

      Secondly, the doesn’t even have the job yet and he’s already got the Hardaway contract and the Baker joke on his resume. It’s not crazy to predict catastrophe.

      Don’t be facetious. You said Mills was on his way to Isaiah 2.0, doubling down on the idea that he was going to trade away future first round pick even though his MO so far is to overpay players we actually drafted. Even THJ was an issue of Mills trying to get back a pick of ours he felt Phil gave up too soon on.

      Third, the one thing he’s said about his philosophy (i.e. that he values youth and athleticism enough to vastly overpay for them) is straight of Isiah’s playbook.

      Except that this is a sloppy analogy. Stephon Marbury and Zach Randolph were 26 when we traded for them, while Steve Francis was 28 when we traded for him. These were players in their physical peaks and also older than the age range Mills is looking for.

      Fourth, you have no idea how Mills values picks, and neither do any of us.

      And yet you are telling us that he values picks on the level of an Isaiah Thomas, someone who consistently sold away our future for malcontent veterans. This makes perfect sense.

    116. Frank

      IMHO Mills is operating like Isiah – he is prioritizing the talent itself over any of the other factors, including fit and contract. If we had a coach like Popovich, I’d say that is semi-reasonable in that Pop always seems to be able to get guys to play as a cohesive whole, but we don’t have Pop.

      Ignoring contract details just can’t be done anymore with this cap environment and with teams in general much smarter than they were in the past.

      The players that Mills has been going after / getting are not necessarily the problem — it’s the contracts. And bad contracts eventually cost you good players.

      (Rough numbers here, don’t have time to get exact numbers)

      Let’s say THJ could’ve been gotten for 4/64 with a contract starting at ~15MM this year. We would’ve been able to keep Ron at 1.3MM, so we would’ve spent 16.3MM total between those two. Instead, we’re paying THJ $16+ this year and Ron 4+, so we basically just threw away 4MM in cap space (and more next year since they’re both getting raises). That’s just bad management. $4MM in cap space this year is the difference between the Celtics keeping Avery Bradley and having to semi-dump him to Detroit for yet another wing in Marcus Morris.

    117. Ntilakilla

      Isiah’s tenure wasn’t defined by doling out bad contracts. If that’s the standard we’re using then we could use many a GM in Knicks history not named Isaiah Thomas. His tenure was especially defined by a refusal to build through the draft or rebuild in general, trading picks away for veteran talent during their peak years who were cast away from their respective teams believing they could be assembled into a competitive team. It was an era lacking in continuity, with a new savior being brought in to cover up the shitty team mistakes of the past season. Whatever Mills’ problems there is no indication he wants to do anything else except give this team of KP, Willy, THJ, Frank, Dotson, Baker, etc. a chance to play together and develop.

    118. danvt

      Boy, these are some epic threads. Kudos boys. You do know more about basketball than Mills. So, that and a nickel.

      I would like to say something optimistic but I got nothing. I really liked Ron but now I don’t. You have to play to your $ number in the NBA.

      Teams are salivating at the idea of a Melo buyout. Anyone would want him for the minimum. At 30 large he’s poison.

      I could say maybe Ron will be good but there’s no evidence he’d even make another team much less be in a rotation. I hope it happens but gms need to not be casual fans. This was flat dumb.

      This season is all about Frank, Wily and KP. If they step up we’ll all be happy. That’s my only caution to all the realists about these last two deals. We haven’t really killed our future with RB and TH. Doesn’t make the moves great but we’ll survive them if our main guys pan out.

      Go Frank.

    119. Ntilakilla

      In fact, I have little doubt that if Isaiah were GM he’d be trying to still build a team around Melo and Rose right now.

    120. Bruno Almeida

      and here comes the key word again: improvement, the knickerblogger’s favorite pollyannaism!

      yes, everyone can improve, even Vince Carter can improve. heck, Mills might go on a self-discovery journey and become the best POBO ever seen!

      will they tho?

      name 2 Knicks players who were brought under scrutiny from the media and the fan base who have significantly improved while here since 2010.

      off the top of my head I can name Tyson Chandler, and well… Tyson Chandler, and that’s pretty much because he already was great and became healthy again for a while.

    121. danvt

      The reason Isiah was bad was that he threw good money after bad. That was the story with tha Bargnsni move too. The Melo deals were catastrophic as well because they prevented us from doing better things with the money.

      You can talk about opportunity cost here a bit but not close to the mistakes of the past yet. The operative word being yet.

    122. Ntilakilla

      name 2 Knicks players who were brought under scrutiny from the media and the fan base who have significantly improved while here since 2010.

      You’re right. Let’s give up.

    123. english_knick

      Turns out I never knew until I got really into the knicks that at heart I’m an optimist.

      I hate more or less everything about this team right now. But there is this. Woj says a) the fourth team is because we’re insisting on not taking back too much crap, and b) Cleveland hasn’t given up, giving us at least a tiny modicum of leverage.

      Our ownership and management such and we’ve ruined a promising cap position. But if we trade Melo for even 50c on the dollar now, this team for the next few years is at least not totally irredeemable. Low bar, and we can definitely still mess even that scenario up. But still, right now I’ll take it…

    124. Bruno Almeida

      @139

      did you read what I wrote or at this point you are just intent on trolling anyway?

    125. kburt8

      4-way Melo trade proposal

      HOU: Melo
      POR: Anderson, D.Carroll
      NYK: Harkless, HOU 1+ HOU 2, Salary filler (non-guaranteed from HOU)
      BRK: Crabbe, Leonard, POR 2

    126. DRed

      There is evidence that Ron Baker might be an okay NBA player. He does literally everything but shoot at an NBA level, and that’s not nothing. And he shot pretty well in college. The fact that he can rebound, pass and play defense at an NBA level suggests he’s physically skilled enough to play in the NBA. It’s a ridiculous bet, because if we hit he just opts out, but there is at least some evidence to suggest he can be a decent NBA player.

    127. Ntilakilla

      did you read what I wrote or at this point you are just intent on trolling anyway?

      My response was heartfelt. Let’s give up. Apparently, we should never bring anyone here who isn’t a surefire superstar because he’s doomed to regress. The funny thing is that I hate the THJ signing and even I think your standard is ridiculous. Give em a chance.

    128. er

      name 2 Knicks players who were brought under scrutiny from the media and the fan base who have significantly improved while here since 2010.

      off the top of my head I can name Tyson Chandler, and well… Tyson Chandler, and that’s pretty much because he already was great and became healthy again for a while.

      I think Melo improved alot as a Knick. Especially pre Phil.

    129. Ingmarrrr

      but not if it’s the difference between 36-38 wins.

      @DRed don’t say that!!
      If they’re on their was to 37 wins when the deadline approaches Mills WILL trade the 2018 1st and Willy for DeRozan and push for the playoffs.

    130. Clyde's suit

      Well I’m generally on “Team Optimist” on this board but these two signings have me feeling pretty glum of late. I was fairly excited to see what the team would do this off season but we come up with THJ and Ron??? WTF!? Ron was absolutely terrible and doesn’t fill a need and we sign him up for this kind of money? I can’t put a positive spin on that no matter how hard I try.
      I actually don’t hate the THJ signing in terms of dollars. I don’t understand the trade kicker for a guy like him. I always assumed that players earned these “perks”. Is THJ that kind of player after one decent year? Sheesh….

      I’m at the point that I don’t have much hope for this FO handling the Melo trade well at all. I just don’t want to see them take back sucky players and bad long term contracts. Let Melo stay, use his player option after this year and let that, be that…. Good riddance!

    131. JK47

      I’m tired of the “not as bad as Isiah” debate.

      Nothing is as bad as Isiah, okay? Let’s stop using that as a benchmark. It’s meaningless. Let’s rate Steve Mills on his own merits or complete lack thereof.

    132. Ntilakilla

      I’m tired of the “not as bad as Isiah” debate.

      It only gets revived because people here insist upon comparing the latest GM to Isaiah. When Phil was here there were people who said he was worst than Isaiah. Now that Mills is here the argument is being floated around that he’s the new Isaiah.

    133. SJK

      If you only consider our cap sheet and roster, even with the Baker and THJ contracts, we’re not in that bad of a spot. We have a young star and other young players with potential. We don’t need to be good for duration of the Noah/Lee contracts, so we can just wait it out, keep being bad and accumulate talent around KP over the next 3 years.

      The problem is, when you take into consideration the nature of the moves the front office has made this offseason, you just can’t have any faith they’ll execute the rebuild properly. Neither the Baker nor the THJ contract are crippling in a vacuum, but they are examples of bad process and are evidence that our front office isn’t good at valuing talent. I don’t think there was a single report of another team showing interest in either player–yet we went and offered both of them above market-value deals. THJ is more understandable b/c he is an RFA, but Baker is just completely insane.

      The problem with the Baker deal is not that it is a crippling contract in and of itself, but that it is one of the least shrewd contracts I’ve ever seen–we probably could have had him at 2 years/6M with a team option on the second year, or something like that–and is incontrovertible evidence that Mills does not know how to negotiate. That is a big fucking problem for a rebuilding team.

    134. Bruno Almeida

      @144

      I’m giving them a chance, I’ve said multiple times I hope to be wrong on pretty much everything I write on this blog.

      What I’m saying is that every time the Knicks make a signing that the fan base thinks is terrible, the same arguments come out: oh, give them a chance, they will improve… and pretty much every single time the fan base was right in the first place and the player won’t improve.

      I’m not saying the franchise is done. Hernangomez is a great example of a move nobody hated on, and that has a great chance of paying out… Ntilikina has a chance to be great in my opinion too.

      The fact is that “pessimists” like me would love to see more moves like those, and not the same bullshit about overpaying people banking that they will become much better players than they already are.

      and yes er, I agree, Melo had some improvement while in NYK, but I think it was a very mild improvement compared to his best years in Denver, that’s why I never considered him.

    135. latke

      The CBA has evolved to prevent or strongly disincentivize the type of stuff Isiah did by nerfing sign and trades and shortening contract lengths. Furthermore, the luxury tax means more pressure from above to avoid repeater tax, which makes ballooning your salaries much tougher to accomplish.

      It’s a different game than it was then.

    136. Ntilakilla

      Only thing Melo significantly improved upon as a Knickerbocker was his bank account.

    137. er

      and yes er, I agree, Melo had some improvement while in NYK, but I think it was a very mild improvement compared to his best years in Denver, that’s why I never considered him.

      Yeah thats what i thought too. But his top four ws/48 seasons are in NY…but your overall point stands

    138. ClashFan

      @153
      Get a 1st and take on 4 contracts, but 2 are non-guaranteed. The worst is Teletovic for 2 years at $10.5 per. Also Hawes 1 year at $6.1m.

      So, pay out $16.6m this year and $10.5m next. Get a (probably late) 1st rounder from Houston. Also, of course, get rid of Melo’s cancer.

    139. DRed

      That Simmons trade, is it palatable ? Basically a future 1 for melo?

      Sure, I’d much rather the Knicks pay Teletovic 10 million a year to suck than to pay Melo 30 to do the same

    140. JK47

      Sure, I’d much rather the Knicks pay Teletovic 10 million a year to suck than to pay Melo 30 to do the same

      Then use the cap savings to sign the Bakers and Hardaways of tomorrow

    141. djphan

      man.. out of the country for a couple of weeks and chaos ensues…

      th2 is def a bad contract.. he’s young and made some strides in atl.. but basically all of it on the shooting end… the 2p fg% bump is promising but it’s possible it’s a system thing as bazemore and carroll both had high 2p fg%… if it continues or if he progresses in other areas i think it has a possibility of working out.. but that still doesn’t justify the contract because of his defensive issues which aren’t going away and it’s a lot of money and years to find out… kcp was a much better buy…

      baker was a weird sign also… there are signs of him being better than he was… but again.. why make that commitment to find out? he basically needs to be a pg since he won’t be a sg with our current rotation…

      in all .. these are not isaiah level deals.. although these probably were on the phil level of incompetence… it was strange but we are hamstrung with the lee, noah and thomas deals anyway… there were def better options…

    142. Frank

      Jared Dubin always says that if you’re trading the best asset, you should get back some combination of young cost-controlled players, cap space, or picks.

      I think the best young “cost-controlled” player we could hope for is Mo Harkless. So not getting that isn’t THAT big a deal.

      Getting the equivalent of ~$10MM in cap space this year would be good (of course depends on what we do with it). That Simmons trade has the potential of costing us $10MM next season though, because it’s possible that Melo would just opt out (he probably wouldn’t, given the $$).

      A late 1st is better than no first.

      That’s pretty crappy return, but honestly I’m not sure what people are hoping for. We’re either getting a crap contract that runs through 2019-20 (ie. Meyers Leonard) with Harkless as a sweetener, or not getting either of those and getting less of a crap contract.

    143. er

      I’m just really tired of the Melo-drama

      I’m just happy I’m gonna have another team to root for. I feel like the Knicks have taken years off of my life

    144. TheOakmanCometh

      Cap space this year is essentially meaningless. There are very few decent free agents left, and signing a role player or two will just push us further down the lottery standings.

      Cap space next year is also not that important. We’ll still be pretty far down the win curve so we won’t need to make a big free agency splash, and the 2018 free agent crop isn’t that appealing anyway.

      Therefore, I would be happy to take on cap-clogging contracts in a Melo trade that last two more years. We need cheap assets (picks and players on rookie deals) more than we need cap space to splurge on expensive free agents.

      Not to mention the fact that cap space in Steve Mills’ hands is a weapon of mass destruction.

    145. Bruno Almeida

      I would like the Milwaukee trade too, but I don’t see them wanting to get Anderson. They already are commited to Jabari Parker starting at the 4, and they’re gonna want to manage minutes between Monroe, Henson and Maker, who looks like potentially a good stretch 4, in the frontcourt.

    146. Hubert

      And yet you are telling us that he values picks on the level of an Isaiah Thomas, someone who consistently sold away our future for malcontent veterans. This makes perfect sense.

      I said he’s shown a proclivity to overpay for what he wants, and that’s extremely worrisome.

      I don’t believe there is a limit to stupidity. If you’re dumb enough to do the Hardway and Baker contracts, I think it’s reasonable to be concerned he will be dumb enough to trade a pick away.

      Steve Mills has shown, in a limited time, that a) he can’t assess a market, b) he is happy to overpay, and c) it’s all about offense, not so much two way play. Those were the trademarks of Isiah.

    147. Hubert

      IMHO Mills is operating like Isiah – he is prioritizing the talent itself over any of the other factors, including fit and contract.

      ^ that, too.

    148. Ntilakilla

      I said he’s shown a proclivity to overpay for what he wants, and that’s extremely worrisome.

      That’s not all you said.

      This was the direction under Isiah Thomas. He valued the same things and made it very clear.

      Don’t amend your position after doubling down on it.

      Steve Mills has shown, in a limited time, that a) he can’t assess a market, b) he is happy to overpay, and c) it’s all about offense, not so much two way play. Those were the trademarks of Isiah.

      He wouldn’t have overpaid for Baker if he was all about offense.

    149. Hubert

      Isiah’s tenure wasn’t defined by doling out bad contracts.

      My jaw is literally on the floor.

      Nate Robinson could walk into my mouth.

    150. Ntilakilla

      My jaw is literally on the floor.

      If you read the rest of the quote, you’d see my point. But I will fix the sentence to reflect the actual point.

      Isiah’s tenure wasn’t uniquely defined by doling out bad contracts.

    151. TheOakmanCometh

      Isiah’s tenure wasn’t defined by doling out bad contracts.

      True. It was defined by: bamboozling our dimwitted owner for years, losing a $10m harrassment lawsuit, trading away picks like they were baseball cards, collecting overrated scorers who fit poorly together, and THEN doling out bad contracts.

    152. Ntilakilla

      Steve Mills has shown, in a limited time, that a) he can’t assess a market, b) he is happy to overpay, and c) it’s all about offense, not so much two way play.

      I should add that points a and b are redundant as the latter is the byproduct of the former trait. And since point c is incorrect, as Baker’s greatest value is defensive and not offense, your analysis comes down to one point – which is a problem shared by many a Knicks GM past. Its just a sloppy analogy.

    153. Hubert

      He wouldn’t have overpaid for Baker if he was all about offense.

      I’ll give you this. Maybe Baker is a better defender than I give him credit for. I sometimes think he seemed like a good defender simply because he was replacing Rose.

      Don’t amend your position after doubling down on it.

      I don’t think you get my position. Mills, in an extremely small amount of time, has demonstrated many of the characteristics that made the Isiah era a disaster. He’s even saying the same things to cover up his moves, i.e. “we got younger and more athletic”.

      You are saying, “well he’s not trading away picks”, so it’s not that bad. But if he’s doing all the other dumb shit, he’ll probably get to that.

      An anology: Steve Mills is demonstrating that he can’t add, subtract, or multiply. I’m saying he probably is terrible at math. You’re saying he might still be able to do long division.

    154. Jack Bauer

      As bad as Mills has been I’d like to never see Isaiah as part of Knicks management again.

      Getting a late first round pick in any Melo deal is better than getting no pick. First round picks are what they should be stockpiling for the rebuild. Who knows by 2020 Houston may not be as good with an even older CP3 and Melo. I actually think Melo would fit in pretty well with Houston’s offense(assuming D’Antonio doesn’t freeze him out just for spite) – think Olympic Melo with Harden and CP3 finding him for open shots. Accordingly the Knicks should be able to extract something of value from Houston (unless Morey convinces Mills otherwise which is a distinct possibility based on past results). I’m not a fan of taking on Anderson’s even longer ridiculous contract.

    155. Ntilakilla

      I don’t think you get my position. Mills is not definitively the new Isiah.

      Do you?

      You: Mills is well on his way to ushering in another Isiah Thomas era…I don’t think we’re going to have wait very long. I bet we trade our 2018 pick before the trade deadline.

      Which is it? Another Isaiah Thomas era nor not the new Isaiah?

      Mills, in an extremely small amount of time, has demonstrated many of the characteristics that made the Isiah era a disaster.

      You basically outlined one overarching trait – an inability to read the market. That’s not unique to Isaiah. Your analogy is sloppy.

    156. stratomatic is in deep despair

      IMHO Mills is operating like Isiah

      I’d bet any amount of money Isiah has an increased role now that Mills is in charge. Those guys are friends. I guarantee they are talking basketball and the Knicks all the time. The entire Phil firing was a well executed coup to put the swamp people back in charge.

      The perception of Phil is way worse than the reality specifically because there were people using the media to get him out. They were painting every development in the worst possible light, with the worst possible spin, and without the opposing point of view (other than Rosen).

    157. Zanzibar

      Jared Dubin always says that if you’re trading the best asset, you should get back some combination of young cost-controlled players, cap space, or picks.

      I think the best young “cost-controlled” player we could hope for is Mo Harkless. So not getting that isn’t THAT big a deal.

      But the best asset here might be Harkless. Melo is the most desired in the trade. I could envision Portland starting Lillard, McCollum, Crabbe, Anderson, Nurkic so Anderson is not a terrible contract for them. But Harkless + Leonard = about 20m so they would be shedding no salary in the deal and Harkless would be a high price to pay. Plus Portland knowing that Knicks and Houston want to do this trade so they have some leverage. They probably also would want Hartenstein and Houston 2020 pick. If Nets/PHX/Hawks agree to take Leonard, they’re gonna want some picks also (unless that 4th team wants Kuz, Randle, Qi, Lance, etc). Is there enough here to make everyone happy? I’m not sure. And if Portland is looking to move Turner instead of Leonard, it would be even more difficult.

    158. steveoh

      It’s the difference between trying to acquire a player or an asset.

      When Mills (or Isiah) focuses on a player, I get the feeling he hates the idea of missing out on any of them. He’s looking at it as a player, not an asset. That’s not a good thing. Getting the player you love “at all costs” doesn’t fit when you work inside a complicated salary cap.

      Looking at it as an asset worth acquiring takes different measures into consideration (salary, length of contract, long-term consequences, market value, roster construction, etc), and they all hold equal weight. It’s backwards for this organization, and it hurts them time and again, especially when their talent valuation is so off.

      Stepping away from a player you love because they don’t work as an asset is a discipline I don’t think this organization has.

    159. Ntilakilla

      I guarantee they are talking basketball and the Knicks all the time.

      I bet they talked back when Mills was defacto GM under Phil running the franchise then. Though I find it interesting that it was Phil and not Mills/Isaiah who wanted to bring Rose back.

    160. ptmilo

      Melo would never, ever do this, but the perfect trade partner for him might Utah. The Jazz have two great Melo complements: An uber-pass first pg who doesn’t pound the ball and an all-NBA rim protector. Plus they’re really light on shot creation. They just took a Hayward gut punch and a big name like Melo would be a moderate publicity coup: The fans would be pumped.

      They also just signed Thabo who, despite falling out of Bud’s lineup entirely, does not look quite done to me and is another good complement to Melo. I think they can make it happen easily with the expiring deal of Joe J, Diaw’s one year team option, 2 years of Burks at $11m and a lottery protected 2018 #1. Again, I know Melo would never go to a banana-less Utah but his marginal value on a great defensive team with a dearth of shot creation would be so much higher than jumping in the back of the Rocket’s boat hoping it doesn’t tip over.

    161. TheOakmanCometh

      Stepping away from a player you love because they don’t work as an asset is a discipline I don’t think this organization has.

      It could be that, for sure. It could also be a consistent inability to assess the market. Like, maybe Mills wasn’t crazy for Ron and Phil wasn’t crazy for Noah, but they somehow thought they were offering fair market value. It seems crazy, but who knows?

      We already know this front office is unfathomably stupid. We’re just trying to figure out their particular brand of stupidity.

    162. Hubert

      I should add that points a and b are redundant as the latter is the byproduct of the former trait.

      An inability to read a market and a willingness to overpay are separate points. And when you multiply the two together, you get disaster. Take Hardaway, for example:

      A. He couldn’t properly assess his value. He thought it was something 4 years, $60 million, when it was more like 4 years, $40 million.
      B. He wanted him so bad, he overpaid in AAV, trade kicker, player option.

      A x B = 4 years, $71mm, with a player option and a trade kicker.

      One without the other gets bad contracts. The two together get you contracts that are the laughing stock of the NBA.

    163. TheOakmanCometh

      I know Melo would never go to a banana-less Utah but his marginal value on a great defensive team with a dearth of shot creation would be so much higher than jumping in the back of the Rocket’s boat hoping it doesn’t tip over.

      Yeah, Melo could actually help a number of playoff teams that would probably want him: Utah, Charlotte, Memphis, Toronto, Washington, OKC. But he’d never accept a trade to any of those cities. It’s almost as if the NTC wasn’t a smart thing for us to give out….

    164. Ntilakilla

      An inability to read a market and a willingness to overpay are separate points. And when you multiply the two together, you get disaster. Take Hardaway, for example:

      The latter is a natural byproduct of the former trait so its redundant to list it as separate.

      Someone who can’t read a market will inevitably overpay, underpay, risk missing out on a potential asset, etc. And, again, this problem wasn’t unique to Isaiah.

    165. d-mar

      Daily News reporting that a Melo to Houston deal is “at the 2 yard line”

      “Mills has the ball, he’s at the 2, he’s at the 1, oh no, he fumbled the ball. Knicks lose, Knicks lose!”

    166. BigBlueAL

      Everyone here does realize that Mills was at MSG during the entire Isiah era, left and wasn’t around for the few years the Knicks were decent, then as soon as he came back the Knicks went back to being horrible. Mills has no idea what it’s like to be around a winning culture.

    167. TheOakmanCometh

      Daily News reporting that a Melo to Houston deal is “at the 2 yard line”

      “Mills has the ball, he’s at the 2, he’s at the 1, oh no, he fumbled the ball. Knicks lose, Knicks lose!”

      “Mills has the ball, he’s at the 2, he’s at the 1, oh no, he’s gotten turned around and is now running the wrong way! The fans and coaches are frantically waving at him to stop, but he seems completely oblivious to everything around him. He’s charging 99 yards down the field with a singlemindedness that defies explanation. Annnnnd, Mills scores for the other team. Knicks lose, Knicks lose. Hang on… now Mills is insisting on kicking the extra point for the other team. The game is already over, so this point is totally unnecessary, but he’s offering it anyway! It appears that Mills has no idea that he’s already lost, or even what the rules of football are! My ohhh my.”

    168. plenty

      I’m gonna laugh if the deal ends up with Mills giving away draft picks after Morey goosed him into it.

    169. Donnie Walsh

      His tenure was especially defined by a refusal to build through the draft or rebuild in general

      The Isiah Doctrine was: use Dolan’s willingness to spend as a competitive advantage.

      It was a fine strategy in theory, as nobody could compete with NY under a soft-cap system.

      He even used Dolan Dollars to buy draft picks: the 30th pick in 2005 (David Lee), and the 20th pick in 2006 (Balkman). He did this by absorbing bad contracts (Malik Rose/Jalen Rose), costing Dolan $21,000,000 in luxury taxes alone for those two players.

      The problem with the Isiah Doctrine wasn’t the Doctrine, but Isiah himself, who overvalued the wrong things (such as athleticism, length, and volume scoring) and undervalued others (two-way players, developing players, and the flexibility that cap-space can give a team, even under a soft cap).

      Mills, as it’s been stated above, is precluded from adopting the Isiah Doctrine as his own by the revamped CBA, but he’s not precluded from falling into the same traps that Isiah did, and the fact that he and Isiah are, apparently, the only two guys Dolan has ever felt comfortable sharing a franchise with, is probably reason good reason to worry that he’ll lead the franchise under a similar set of principles.

    170. Eternal OptiKnist

      Whoever takes on the anderson contract is who is going to get the first rounder. Based on the FA signings Mills just made, he’s looking to do what Phil wanted to do which is be competitive now…he just wants to do it with younger players. I think Mills wants young players ready to help now and will pay for them.

    171. Ntilakilla

      Mills, as it’s been stated above, is precluded from adopting the Isiah Doctrine as his own by the revamped CBA, but he’s not precluded from falling into the same traps that Isiah did, and the fact that he and Isiah are, apparently, the only two guys Dolan has ever felt comfortable sharing a franchise with, is reason to worry that he’ll lead the franchise under a similar set of principles.

      Assuming that the mandate is for the team to get/keep players 25 and under I’d say this worry is still very premature. Marbury, Randolph, and Francis wouldn’t even have been Knicks if such a mandate were in effect during the Isaiah years and the reason for that is simple – Isaiah hated rebuilds. The fact that we want a young core of players mostly by this franchise to develop together is a lightyear change from that era.

    172. Ntilakilla

      Based on the FA signings Mills just made, he’s looking to do what Phil wanted to do which is be competitive now…he just wants to do it with younger players.

      I find it hard to believe a team full of players 25 and under will be expected to compete for anything in the present.

    173. Zanzibar

      Everyone here does realize that Mills was at MSG during the entire Isiah era, left and wasn’t around for the few years the Knicks were decent, then as soon as he came back the Knicks went back to being horrible. Mills has no idea what it’s like to be around a winning culture.

      I’d bet any amount of money Isiah has an increased role now that Mills is in charge. Those guys are friends. I guarantee they are talking basketball and the Knicks all the time. The entire Phil firing was a well executed coup to put the swamp people back in charge.

      I would add Mills hired Isiah. I posted THIS PHOTO a couple of days ago. Isn’t it obvious that this is Mills and Isiah at work? The Timmy overpay has Isiah’s fingerprints all over it. Isiah’s made some progress: before he used to give out bad contracts to bad players. He’s learned just enough to where he’s now giving out bad contracts to OK players.

    174. Bruno Almeida

      @199

      the Knicks still have Lee, Thomas and Noah who are obviously untradeable and are very likely to play a lot of minutes, so even if Melo goes I guess we’re ‘safe’ in that sense.

    175. Eternal OptiKnist

      I find it hard to believe a team full of players 25 and under will be expected to compete for anything in the present.

      I’m not saying it’s smart, I’m just saying that’s what I think the approach is. What’s taking this deal so long is the Knicks don’t want andersons contract. The key asset in this deal will be attached to it.

    176. Ntilakilla

      the Knicks still have Lee, Thomas and Noah who are obviously untradeable and are very likely to play a lot of minutes, so even if Melo goes I guess we’re ‘safe’ in that sense.

      Yeah, this is the difference between lottery picking and a playoff birth. C’mon. The point behind getting younger is to rebuild. We don’t want Melo or Rose. We didn’t resign Holiday even. We’re starting over.

    177. Ntilakilla

      What’s taking this deal so long is the Knicks don’t want andersons contract.

      I know I am probably giving our FO too much credit, but there are many good reasons for why we’d not want Anderson’s contract and a late round first won’t mitigate that albatross.

    178. Zanzibar

      Like Brian smartly noted, Morey might get this done for our stooges. It’s possible we might end up with Harkless and enough cap space to sign Rondo on a 1 year deal and Dotson to a 4 year deal. Here’s a possible core roster:

      1: Rondo, Frank
      2: Timmy, Lee, Dotson
      3: Harkless, Lance, Dotson
      4/5: KP, Willy, KOQ

      I think we’d all be mostly happy if this were the result. I wouldn’t have signed Timmy and given Dotson more burn and found a better use for the cap but whatever. What worries me now is the stooges will make a lemon out of lemonade giving Rondo a 2 year deal plus a player option for the 3rd year.

    179. Eternal OptiKnist

      I know I am probably giving our FO too much credit, but there are many good reasons for why we’d not want Anderson’s contract and a late round first won’t mitigate that albatross

      So you think we’ll get something of value on melo’d merit alone.

    180. Early Bird

      The fact they’re discussing 4 team trades makes me think the deal is unlikely to happen. Not many people are going to want Anderson.

      What sort of pick compensation would Anderson’s contract be worth?
      1st and 1st with protections?

    181. 2FOR18, understands math

      I’d definitely sign up for that Simmons trade. Non crippling, 1 or 2 year contracts and a #1 is as good as we can reasonably hope for. Plus er, by his own admission, will be part of the outgoing package.
      I like Harkless enough that I’d rather have him than a late 1st rounder. Plus he’d actually be a perfect fit for once. He could slide in as our 3 and d SF.

    182. JK47

      This is the part of the trade timeline where we kid ourselves that the Knicks are not going to get royally boned, complete with potential future rosters that don’t look horrible.

    183. Jack Bauer

      @205, that’s probably about the best roster we can hope for now and it’s not completely horrible. at least the pieces fit for each position. That team would not win a lot of games, but might be fun to watch, certainly more enjoyable than D Rose and Melo taking turns at iso/hero ball.

      bottom line the knicks should not be in a rush to bid against themselves (again). If Morey wants Melo they should make him come up with something that benefits the Knicks without taking on Ryan Anderson.

    184. Unreason

      Mills would seem to need no slide mastermind to denude the Knicks of all remaining assets. He is a self-fleecing wonder. He expels strategic value as effortlessly as the sun emits light. By this time next week, Ron Baker will be the most talented and least well paid person on the team and the Knicks will have no draft picks ever again. Dolan will rename the garden the Grand Guignol. Instead of paying to watch basketball games, Knicks fans will be invited to pay to have players assist then in committing sepukku at center court.

      After the Baker trade, this is my expectation. With the bar set that low it will be difficult for Mills to underperform.

    185. Brian Cronin

      Houston doesn’t really want him, Morey is just trying to fleece us again.

      I do think that he believes he’d be fleecing the Knicks by getting Melo at what will likely end up not being much of a cost, but luckily, the deal can’t get done without Anderson going from Houston and I think Morey realizes that the Knicks won’t do that, so hopefully he’ll be fleecing another team for the Knicks.

    186. Ntilakilla

      So you think we’ll get something of value on melo’d merit alone.

      I think the FO is going to at least try.

    187. Donnie Walsh

      The Pelicans want to be a part of the Knicks and Rockets trade for Carmelo Anthony

      Yes! Omar Asik, here we come for you!!!!

    188. Bruno Almeida

      @215

      so Omer Asik will finally be able to fulfill his destiny of becoming a Knick! great!

      this will end in complete disaster I feel… the grand guignol reference makes so much sense, unreason.

    189. The Glass Half Rebuilt

      http://www.boxscoregeeks.com/teams/mil?direction=desc&sort=minutes
      http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/MIL/2017.html

      The 2017 Milwaukee Bucks are an interesting case study. Look at how many bad players received heavy minutes on a team that won 42 games. My only point in bringing up the Bucks is that if KP and Willy Hernangomez are the real deal, TH2 and Courtney Lee play good ball, and Kyle O’Quinn remains a Knick, that’s a whole five good basketball players who could play at least 1,200 minutes a piece. Ron Baker, KP, Willy Hernangomez, and TH2 are all decent bets to improve on last season. I can see how this team wins 27 games, but I can also see 43 wins. This season really all depends on if KP and Willy Hernangomez are the franchise players we need them to be.

    190. 2FOR18, understands math

      I would take Anderson’s contract if we got back Harkless and a #1. That’s what a shitty team with no pg should be doing with their cap space.

      @200 that is a frightening image, and pretty much says it all.

    191. njnick

      i am way to late the argument against the hardaway signing but isnt that he is a 2G that plays so so defense and is a so so shooter fro 3 (~35%) which is a nice player but why is a rebuilding team spending 20% of their cap space to acquire him?!? thats what i don’t get. Guys like hardaway are always available via FA.

    192. ClashFan

      @223
      Two words: Steve Mills.

      And as for the trade, where the heck would New Orleans fit it? Would they want Anderson?

    193. ptmilo

      with a lot of improvement marquis chriss may one day develop the basketball awareness of amare or Derrick Williams

    194. JK47

      The Pelicans are a “win now” team and they don’t have a lot of outside shooting, so maybe they’d want Anderson?

    195. njnick

      I hope and sort of convinced that Mills is not taking back Ryan Anderson for Melo. So Melo we get Ariza plus a young player and a 1st, Or actually Ariza is sent to NY and Anderson goes to cap space team with a 1 attached.

    196. DRed

      Magic Ryan Anderson was a really good basketball player but he really fell apart in a hurry

    197. Ntilakilla

      The Rockets will hold a lavish press conference Friday to introduce Chris Paul — with guests including James Harden, coach Mike D’Antoni, GM Daryl Morey and owner Les Alexander.
      Sources told The Post there will be no surprise announcement, no surprise visitor in Carmelo Anthony. Maybe that will be next week.

      As much as Anthony’s camp is pressing the Knicks to complete a trade this week, nothing is imminent or expected to happen until well after the press conference, according to multiple NBA sources.

      The Knicks and Rockets are getting closer, but they have work to do.

      “They’re still in the middle of the process,’’ one NBA source familiar with the trade talks told The Post.

      Another source told The Post over the weekend talks “stalled’’ regarding a three-team deal, and the sides had to go back to the drawing board. ESPN reported a fourth team is being solicited to inherit at least one of the contracts. A fourth team has yet to be finalized, but ESPN reported both clubs remain “motivated’’ in making this happen.
      The Pelicans, once the home of Ryan Anderson, expressed interest in being one of the clubs involved, according to a source. Anderson’s contract, which has three years and $60 million remaining, needs to be part of the transaction because Anthony’s $27 million pact — plus trade kicker — is so immense. The Knicks have no interest in Anderson because he plays Kristaps Porzingis’ position and is older than the mid-20s-type player the club seeks.

      According to sources, Knicks acting president Steve Mills is so preoccupied on trying to figure out a way to move Anthony to the Rockets in a multi-team deal that he’s unable to focus fully on landing a veteran point guard.

      One goal is to accomplish both — getting Anthony off the roster to continue their rebuild mode and inheriting a veteran point guard in the Anthony trade that could mentor 18-year-old Frank Ntilikina, their rookie first-round lottery pick.

    198. Ntilakilla

      Ron Baker broke the bank on his free-agent contract, getting the entire room exception in a two-year, $9 million deal. He could wind up starting at point guard — a move that only makes sense under the prism that earning the eighth seed is not the primary objective next season, that falling into the lottery for a bid at Michael Porter Jr., the highly touted Missouri freshman, is acceptable.

      The Knicks are aiming to trade Anthony, 33, because their philosophy is to open space for the development of their young core — Porzingis, Tim Hardaway Jr., Willy Hernangomez and Ntilikina.

      The Knicks have just $1.5 million of cap space for a free-agent point guard, but have another option. They can actually spend more with their veteran’s minimum exception — which is $2.3 million for players serving at least 10 seasons in the league.
      According to a source, the Knicks are among a multitude of teams who have inquired about 31-year-old Ramon Sessions, who played for Charlotte last season.

      A source told The Post the Knicks inquired about Phoenix point guard Eric Bledsoe, whom Jeff Hornacek coached with the Suns.

      Bledsoe is 27 with two years and $29 million left on his pact. The Knicks don’t have many trade chips except a future first-round pick and starting shooting guard Courtney Lee.

      The Knicks no longer have the money for either Derrick Rose or Rajon Rondo. Another free-agent name the Knicks researched is point guard Donald Sloan, who played in China last season.

    199. DRed

      Honestly I should be running this team.

      These idiots going to trade picks for Eric Bledsoe

    200. Ntilakilla

      When the Rockets first approached the Knicks about a trade after landing Paul, Houston didn’t get much traction because the organization still was figuring out the post-Phil Jackson front office. But Mills has since been given the green light by owner James Dolan, and the plan is to make him the permanent president, as first reported by The Post.

      While confidants say D’Antoni would approve an Anthony deal in the Rockets’ all-out attempt to dethrone the Warriors, the former Knicks coach also has had reservations because of their past differences.

      Asked at the summer league in Las Vegas if he wants to add to the roster, D’Antoni said, “There’s somebody out there” before stopping because of fear of tampering charges.

      “I’ve blown enough money at the tables here,” he added.

      D’Antoni has no choice after Paul and Harden lobbied for the move, and Anthony’s former Denver teammate, Nene, also is on board. Nene posted an Instagram on Monday of Anthony in a Rockets uniform. As reported by The Post, Anthony and Harden already have been in conversations.

      Meanwhile, Paul was quoted by The Undefeated as saying, “Man, sit back and wait.”

      The wait is on.

      http://nypost.com/2017/07/12/knicks-and-rockets-move-closer-to-trade-as-pelicans-want-in/

    201. Ntilakilla

      Host Peyton Manning targeted the Knicks right off the bat during the opening segment, poking fun at the Charles Oakley saga and the failed Phil Jackson experiment.

      “What a terrible year for the Knicks,” Manning began. “They had to escort a former legend out of the building for acting like a crazy person. Then there was that whole thing with Charles Oakley.”

      He then made the Knicks the butt of a joke that involved another lowly New York franchise: the Jets.

      “Phil Jackson’s Knicks are the most embarrassing thing that happened in New York sports,” Manning said. “And that includes the time MarkSanchez ran full-steam up his teammate’s anus and fumbled a football.”

      To make matters worse for the Knicks, multiple NBA stars, most notably Steph Curry, couldn’t hold in their laughter at the franchise.

      http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/knicks/peyton-manning-espys-host-opens-show-ripping-knicks-article-1.3322021

    202. dtrickey

      I get that how recent signings haven’t been that great, but some of the team pessimist guys need to step back from the ledge. Expressing doubt and criticism is fine and adds to robust discussion, but there is a point where some of the hyperbole does get a bit boring.

      Magic Ryan Anderson was a really good basketball player but he really fell apart in a hurry

      That neck injury he got just after he went to NOP really derailed his career. Magic Anderson with Howard was a pretty nice combo. He is a pretty one dimensional player, but he could be handy with in the right front court……….but not the Knicks.

      From all reports, it sounds like the FO are sticking pretty fat with their Melo demands, which I guess is promising. The worrying part is what happens with Anderson and what impact that will have on the pick situation. You would have to think anyone taking back Anderson gets a pick.

    203. Ntilakilla

      These idiots going to trade picks for Eric Bledsoe

      Thankfully, we don’t have the cap room for that kind of a deal.

    204. plenty

      Doncic? Maybe, maybe not. It’s a leap considering we are likely going to be nowhere near the range to pick either.

      Don’t hate Ron baker as our point guard next year. Let him earn it, of course but he’s as good a choice as any.

    205. ptmilo

      Thankfully, we don’t have the cap room for that kind of a deal.

      Well we could trade Courtney, Lance and a 1st. Wait this is us. I meant Courtney, Willy and a 1st. I really like Bledsoe but there is no trade the Suns would make that isn’t terrible for us.

    206. JK47

      I get that how recent signings haven’t been that great, but some of the team pessimist guys need to step back from the ledge. Expressing doubt and criticism is fine and adds to robust discussion, but there is a point where some of the hyperbole does get a bit boring.

      Take a look at this team’s record for the last 17 years, then take a look at the guy who is making the decisions right now, then get back to me about what is and isn’t hyperbole.

    207. Bruno Almeida

      Get Ramon Sessions, Donald Sloan or whoever, trade Melo for anything non-Bledsoe, the Knicks are set.

    208. DRed

      Peyton Manning made a weak joke about Durant joining the US women’s gymnastics team because they’re so dominant and Durant acted like a baby

    209. ptmilo

      The fact that his mom was laughing in the seat next to him didn’t help his mean mugging the ice cream thing. At some point Durant decided he want to have a chip on his shoulder like Russ but it always looks like he’s faking it. Like Tom Hanks playing a bad guy.

    210. plenty

      First nitilkilla with the pessimism shout out, now another?

      As jk47 so reasonably stated – look at the history. It’s your choice to feel how you want to feel about the team, but don’t get upset when the bad outweighs the good in the end. That’s why winning championships is so hard, yet gratifying when the chance it actually happens.

    211. Bruno Almeida

      yeah… it honestly gets pretty boring to see the same arguments made for every Knicks signing (he’ll be healthy! he’ll improve! he’s still young / we need veterans! he creates shots! he was decent 3 years ago!) but hey, if that’s your thing, go for it man.

    212. Ntilakilla

      yeah… it honestly gets pretty boring to see the same arguments made for every Knicks signing (he’ll be healthy! he’ll improve! he’s still young / we need veterans! he creates shots! he was decent 3 years ago!) but hey, if that’s your thing, go for it man.

      Conversely, its pretty boring to see the same criticisms for every Knicks move – and I hate the THJ and Baker deals.

    213. dtrickey

      Not going to argue there aren’t reasons to be critical of everything the franchise does. With their track record and this week’s moves, it’s probably not unreasonable to be skeptical and critical of everything. I just mean it gets mundane when a topic gets discussed, it always inevitably heads towards “we are doomed regardless”. I like that the board has such varying opinions and humorous posts taking a dig at the franchise, but I just don’t really feel the whole “we’ve been f#*@ed for 17 years therefore we will be f#*@ed forever” rhetoric really adds anything to any discussions/debate. Just one guys thoughts though, so carry on as you please.

    214. dtrickey

      Regardless of my note above, this is still hands down the best blog to discuss the Knicks and NBA, so I really don’t have a lot to complain about. You have all made the last decade of watching the Knicks bearable…..just.

    215. Brian Cronin

      If 2+2=4, we’re not going to change because it’s boring that 4 is always the right answer.

      “Can’t you mix things up this time? Maybe it can be 5 this time, if everything goes right.”

    216. dtrickey

      If 2+2=4, we’re not going to change because it’s boring that 4 is always the right answer.

      Absolutely. A spade is a spade. We just need the bloody equation to change so we have a bit more to be optimistic about I guess ha ha

    217. Ntilakilla

      I have no problem with the pessimism in and of itself. I have an issue with the need to veer every take towards that direction.

    218. JK47

      If they make good moves, even the most hardened cynic here would say “now that’s a good move.” Ntilikina was a controversial pick– a lot of people wanted Dennis Smith, but I was fine with Ntilikina. It was a perfectly reasonable pick. I don’t think I’m a knee-jerk negative commenter here, nor is anybody else. The Knicks just do a lot of shit that is obviously stupid. The results speak for themselves. So far Steve Mills has made two moves, both of them dumb.

      I calls ’em like I sees ’em.

    219. Bruno Almeida

      yeah, I agree with Brian and JK.

      I’ve always seen this blog as a way to follow the Knicks away from the two main things I’ve always seen in Knicks related stuff: either totally rose tinted glasses, or just nonstop jokes “haha look at the Knicks again self destructing they’re doomed”.

      I wanted to at least understand and be able to discuss why the hell this franchise has been doomed for so many years, and here’s the best place to do it.

      It might be frustrating sometimes, but people here are typically knowledgeable about the game: if they see shit they’ll say shit. If it’s boring for you to see people repeatedly being right about Knicks moves being shit, well, the Knicks are gonna be a hard franchise for you to follow.

    220. Boriqua3

      A friend and I just had an interesting debate. A lot of smiling & nodding while discussing the state of this franchise. Then he nonchalantly mentions, “They should just keep Melo. He is a first ballot HOFer after all.”
      My Reply: “WTeF are you talking about? His name ain’t Lebron Duncan?!…………..”
      Retort: “Blah blah Syracuse, Olympic Gold, multiple All-Star games…”
      I was seconds away from asking him his Knickerblogger S/N, until the “agree to disagree” comment was made.
      1st ballot, for real???

    221. danvt

      Someone said Ron is good at everything but shooting. Does team pessimism agree?

      I’m not sure he got enough burn to get into enough of a rhythm with his shooting. Also, shooting is something you can improve, no?

      I’m NOT saying he should have gotten 9 million, but is there a reasonable chance he can contribute next season?

    222. DRed

      Apparently we’ve been kicking the tires on Shabazz Muhammad (I guess as a stopgap Melo replacement?). He’s an atrocious defender, I don’t want any part of him, but I suppose I wouldn’t care on a one year deal. I’m not confident in this FO offering him only one year though.

    223. Bruno Almeida

      Ron is kinda ok at defense when he’s not outmatched too much physically, but he was not good at passing, shooting or getting to the line last year, so… he does try hard and he will probably be a contributor in some way.

      @257

      well, Iverson got inducted in his first try… he has a league MVP but no college title and only a bronze Olympic medal, so Id say it’s definitely possible, even if it’s not probable.

    224. dtrickey

      It might be frustrating sometimes, but people here are typically knowledgeable about the game: if they see shit they’ll say shit. If it’s boring for you to see people repeatedly being right about Knicks moves being shit, well, the Knicks are gonna be a hard franchise for you to follow.

      No doubt that most of the posters here are really great and their knowledge is far superior than mine. More often than not criticism has been backed by solid evidence and the resulting hypothesis has been well informed. I think maybe (at least I know for me), the frustration has been reading the same thing for the last week. We need the Melo deal to eventuate so we have something else to talk about!!!! Can we get another Unsung Knick History article up? ha ha

    225. dtrickey

      Apparently we’ve been kicking the tires on Shabazz Muhammad (I guess as a stopgap Melo replacement?). He’s an atrocious defender, I don’t want any part of him, but I suppose I wouldn’t care on a one year deal. I’m not confident in this FO offering him only one year though.

      I saw that on twitter too. We would have to clear space to make it work, but it is a hard pass from me regardless. I also see that Jerebko got a Ron Baker deal from the Jazz. The deal is fine, but man that has to be deflating for Jazz fans losing Hayward and replacing him with Jonas.

    226. The Glass Half Rebuilt

      I super hope we don’t land Eric Bledsoe because that would mean we lost a 1st round pick.

    227. The Glass Half Rebuilt

      Phoenix would be a great trade partner though. They still have a bunch of cap space available and could absorb Ryan Anderson’s contract no problem. If we traded Melo to Houston and Ryan Anderson went to Phoenix, there’s a lot of room for a 4th team to dump salary on us in the form of young overpaid players. The youth would be enough for Steve Mills and the draft pick compensation could go to Phoenix for taking the Anderson deal. Like I’d have no problem if we netted Harkless, Leonard, and a 2nd round pick while Phoenix takes Ryan Anderson and a 1st round pick from Portland (and Portland takes back Courtney Lee and non guaranteed contracts presumably).

    228. Bruno Almeida

      yeah, Bledsoe is not a bad player, hes improved as a shooter and can still be a good defender when he’s healthy, but he’s going to be too expensive.

    229. DRed

      The Jazz also got Sefalosha, no? He’s at the age where you run the risk of sudden collapse, but as of last year he could still play.

    230. er

      Someone said Ron is good at everything but shooting. Does team pessimism agree?

      As the newest member. Hell nah. I think he sucks at dribbling and initiating the offense too

    231. er

      A friend and I just had an interesting debate. A lot of smiling & nodding while discussing the state of this franchise. Then he nonchalantly mentions, “They should just keep Melo. He is a first ballot HOFer after all.”
      My Reply: “WTeF are you talking about? His name ain’t Lebron Duncan?!…………..”
      Retort: “Blah blah Syracuse, Olympic Gold, multiple All-Star games…”
      I was seconds away from asking him his Knickerblogger S/N, until the “agree to disagree” comment was made.
      1st ballot, for real???

      He’s absolutely a first MAYBE a second ballot HOF. See its the basketball HOF not the NBA HOF. All that other shit counts and he’s in the top 20 scoring all time with probably at least 10 more spots to climb. He’s had a hall of fame basketball career whether u like it or not.

      Tmac getting in on the first try is all u need to know. The guy had a 5-7 year career basically ando literally ne be ready won a playoff series.

      Then Chris Mullin…..and on and on

    232. The Glass Half Rebuilt

      http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=ybnuekfe

      Would anybody hate this deal? No picks involved except we get Phoenix’s 2nd round pick in 2018, and some other 2nd rounders out of Houston. I don’t think we can get a 1st rounder from anyone at this point, and we get our starting point guard and small forward for the season that can/will eventually move into back-up roles when Ntilikina and Michael Porter Jr develop into superstars.

    233. The Glass Half Rebuilt

      And if you don’t think the 2013 NBA scoring champion, 6X All-NBA, 8X All Star, most decorated USMNT player ever, no trade clause wielding Carmelo Anthony will be a 1st ballot Hall of Famer you’re probably just a hater.

    234. Silky Johnson, Fleet Admiral of the Tank Armada

      Regardless of what you think about Melo he’s clearly a first ballot HOF guy

      That doesn’t speak to his productivity per se so much as it speaks to his impact on the game at all levels

    235. Ntilakilla

      Ramon Sessions? Yay or nay? I don’t like that he pronounces his first name Rah-man instead Ra-moan but whatever. I think he’d be a solid mentor.

    236. GoNyGoNyGo

      A real GM can get value for Melo now that there’s competition for his services. If any one of us was GM we would be demanding and getting a #1 pick. For a team on the cusp, where he’s playing with real peers, he’s the piece that can put them over the top. Houston and Cleveland are the teams.
      But Mills is running the show and he’ll take 2 big macs and a quarter pounder with cheese to go for Carmelo Anthony.

      @273 – I’m fine with Sessions because he won’t make the Knicks winners and defeat the tank.

    237. Bruno Almeida

      yay for Sessions, hes precisely the type of player that would benefit the Knicks: a serviceable veteran, and nothing else.

    238. dtrickey

      Fine with Sessions. That said it feels like just about every year we talk about getting Sessions in some way ha ha

    239. Bruno Almeida

      the Shabazz Muhammad rumours have got to be an indication that the Melo deal is indeed happening right?
      it makes zero sense to bring him if Melo is not going… well, it makes zero sense to bring him, period, but again, taking the good with the bad.

    240. heavencent35

      If we get crabbe or harkless for Melo it is a good deal right? If we get additional pick for Melo along with harkless or crabbe that will be bulllseye. For once, make it happen Knicks.

    241. Bruno Almeida

      hell, while we’re at it get Shabazz Napier too, we would have the first lineup ever to have two dudes named Shabazz, how cool would that be?

      Shabazz / Tim / Shabazz / Kristaps / Guillermo is a cool lineup!

    242. BigBlueAL

      As someone who wanted Dennis Smith Jr this from Kevin Pelton makes me sigh:

      The ninth pick of this year’s draft, Smith has been the most impressive rookie so far in Las Vegas. Playing alongside more talent and in a better system than at North Carolina State, Smith has gotten where he’s wanted on the court, finished creatively at the rim, drawn fouls and found open teammates.

      Despite inconsistent outside shooting (5-of-14, 35.7 percent from 3), Smith has scored 55 points on 46 shooting possessions. He also has been active at the defensive end, a change from his low-energy style in college that left questions in the minds of scouts.

    243. heavencent35

      The sad thing about Melo is he’s a great player. He wanted to be in NY. He could be the best Knicks ever or just for the past decades. Unfortunately, it didn’t workout. He didn’t win here in NY. Maybe it’s his fault or maybe the management or maybe the impatient fans. Whatever happens, I wish a great situation for Knicks and Melo.

    244. Bruno Almeida

      Josh Selby and Glen Rice Jr. were summer league mvps… so yeah, it’s summer league.

    245. the don nelson era

      @283 it didn’t work out for Melo in NY for a couple reasons and some of them are his fault, though not all. He does share in the biggest reason though, and that’s his trade to NY. When the Knicks surrendered every single asset they had to get him, they eliminated the possibility of trading for CP3 the following year.

      That’s when Melo’s NY championship dream died. It’s not possible to just recreate assets like they surrendered so Melo could get the most possible money while coming to NY. They sent out three then-recent, former lottery picks (Gallo, Wil, Randolph), Curry’s expiring, Mozgov, and two future 1sts. And seriously, if he came to NY as a free agent then took every cent he could from then forward, how much more did that net Melo? Was it even $10 million? That’s still a tough one to look back on.

    246. english_knick

      Morey: ok Steve, I think we’ve got our fourth team. But it does mean you have to take Omer Asik

      Mills: I’m sorry Daryl, that’s a deal-breaker for me. We’re only taking young, two-way athletes.

      Morey: he’s really good – he used to play for me…

      Mills: no – he just doesn’t fit what we’re trying to do, plus he’s out of kilter with the modern NBA

      Morey: Ah go on – please? The east is big, man.

      Mills: NO. Also, my two best players are centers.

      Morey: he’s got a player option in year three…

      Mills: well why didn’t you say so? Player options are the new market inefficiency – I’m in!

    247. BigBlueAL

      Selby and Rice Jr were not supposed to be top prospects. Smith Jr by many statistical projections was a Top 5 pick who the Knicks let pass with the 8th pick for a player who Phil Jackson liked mainly because he “fit” the triangle. So seeing him look like the player he was projected to be is a bit frustrating for fans who wanted him to be the pick at #8. I hope Frank works out but all these worries about who will be the PG for the Knicks wouldn’t be as troublesome if they had drafted Smith Jr.

    248. JK47

      Smith Jr by many statistical projections was a Top 5 pick who the Knicks let pass with the 8th pick for a player who Phil Jackson liked mainly because he “fit” the triangle.

      I’m not so sure about this. Frank “fit the triangle” because he has length, because they saw him as a two-way player and because they liked his basketball IQ. Believe me, the mindset of “let’s get this guy because he’s good for the triangle” drove me nuts, but this isn’t Joakim Noah and his pinch-post passing or Arron Afflalo and his post-up game. Ntilikina was rated very similarly to Smith by most draft experts because of his overall attributes as a player. I don’t think this was a case of a clearly superior prospect being passed over for a lesser one because of Phil’s triangular proclivities.

    249. #fireRambis

      if the trade happens, reckon
      Turner and Harkless to Knicks
      Anderson to Blazers
      Melo to Rockets
      with picks thrown around whoever

      and MDA tells Morey I quit!
      I might have to buy a Baker jersey…

    250. Brian Cronin

      Yeah, while Smith would certainly have been a defensible pick at #8, as well, Frank was a highly regarded draft prospect. Not only that, but he is specifically the type of prospect who normally rises a lot the closer you get to the draft, but the Knicks were lucky that this draft was pretty stacked at the top with other players who GMs love, as well (other top point guard prospects and forwards who can play either forward position…plus the Bulls just being weird with their pick). I had been hoping for Frank for some time now (as soon as it seemed like the Knicks would be picking too late for the guys I really wanted – Isaac and Fox). One of the things I liked about Frank is that while his Triangle fit might have been a plus, he’s clearly the type of player who can adapt to any system, so I liked that he seemed like a guy who could adjust to a new system in two years when Phil got fired. Now that Phil got fired much earlier, he still looks like he can adapt to Horny’s system, as well. He’s a very good prospect. Just not one who is as “ready to go” as Smith (or even Mitchell) is.

    251. Zanzibar

      I think Phil was fired after the pick had been made so Mills would have a scapegoat if Smith or Monk turns out to be a much better player than Frank. I christened the SS Ntilikina but I would have chosen Smith. Spread floor, KP at the 5, Smith-KP PnR PnPop, drive n kick to Dotson and 3&D wings. High octane offense. My main reservation would have been injury risk because he’s too reckless, always trying to show off his athleticism (e.g., dunking). Frank just looked too slow to me when I watched his videos, maybe more of a Beverley type. Let’s hope this is a tortoise-hare scenario and Frank will end up being the better pick in a few years.

    252. Brian Cronin

      And seriously, if he came to NY as a free agent then took every cent he could from then forward, how much more did that net Melo? Was it even $10 million? That’s still a tough one to look back on.

      He didn’t gain any significant financial benefit (whatever it was was definitely less than $10 million over the lifetime of the contract), but the issue was that at the time, with the lockout looming, he had no idea what the CBA would look like post-lockout, so while it turned out that he would not have lost any significant amount by waiting, he did not and could not know that at the time. It would have been a pretty good bet at the time that the new CBA would not lower max salaries, but he didn’t want to risk it.

    253. Brian Cronin

      Absolutely. A spade is a spade. We just need the bloody equation to change so we have a bit more to be optimistic about I guess ha ha

      Oh sure, I’d love for them to stop being morons. It would be a delight. :)

      Not for nothing, though, just go back to draft night – the responses were very positive overall about getting Frank.

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