Knicks Continue to Perpetuate “LOLKnicks” By Disavowing Steve Stoute’s First Take Interview

The Knicks’ official PR account released the following statement:

That’s such a massive self-own. I love that Stoute’s response is not even to REALLY apologize, but to just note that he inadverently insinuated something. That’s not an apology! That’s not even “I was wrong in what I said!” That’s just, to quote the Simpsons…

It’s appropriate that I used a Krusty the Clown image, since this is such a clown organization.

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118 thoughts to “Knicks Continue to Perpetuate “LOLKnicks” By Disavowing Steve Stoute’s First Take Interview”

  1. The PR team could have just not issued this statement and let the Lol Knicks crowd have their 24 hours of fun and let the matter just float out into the ether.

    Now even Woj making fun of the Knicks. To add to the Simpsons references “No, no, dig up stupid”.

  2. This is the PR mastermind…sure Jimmy’s glad he cut this clown a multi-million dollar check to embarrass him on ESPN….hahaha

  3. In fairness to the PR team, I am glad they are showing some love for Miller. From what I am reading around the place, it seems Dolan likes Miller and would want him around in some form of coaching capacity next season if he doesn’t get the permanent HC job. That being said I am not sure how that dynamic would work having your interim coach not get the job and then work under the guy the FO thought was more suitable to the job you had been doing for 3/4 of a season.

  4. How’s that branding going so far, Stoutey?

    Like I’ve said before. You have to enjoy this team as farce. It’s the only way.

  5. Yeah, it would be cool to keep Miller if he wants but then what happens when the new coach starts floundering or the team is under performing? Now the media is questioning and saying Miller should replace that coach.

    Just give Miller the job for next season at least! Lets see what happens when he has an off season to work with the same players. He’s done a good job with what he’s been given. CONTINUITY!

  6. Just give Miller the job for next season at least! Lets see what happens when he has an off season to work with the same players. He’s done a good job with what he’s been given. CONTINUITY!

    The options appear to be Jackson, Thibbs, JVG and that’s about it. I think JVG would be the most popular amongst fans (and I don’t prescribe to the whole ‘he’s been out of coaching too long’ thing given he runs USA basketball while the stars are in season), but I really don’t seem much of an issue going with Miller for another year with an option for another 1 or 2 years. We aren’t going to be competing next year, so why not allow for some continuity and organic growth on court?

  7. Welcome to 2020’s clown show! But really it’s just the same as every year.

    God can’t we get people on board who can actually seem competent for once, I can’t even delude myself for a week before these bozos screw everything up. It’s been hard enough to keep any semblance of hope as it is.

  8. I can smell Mark Jackson coming from a mile away. It’s just too perfect, I can’t see any way to avoid it.
    This is the master plan:

    1. Change team logo
    2. Hire Mark Jackson
    3. ????????
    4. Champions

  9. Maybe there is some language in the league bylaws that says an owner can be forced to sell if they are operating the team in a “grossly negligent manner” or some shit like that…because if you look up grossly negligent in the dictionary in a digital version of Websters… there is a gif file of the Steve Stoute interview right there…

    I also wonder how this high level PR/marketing genius decided to use the word “insinuated”…the whole statement was horribly constructed…what a loser…

  10. If Miller is gone…and this is going to be a full blown shit show…what about bringing in Ewing as HC…who better to bolster the brand…

  11. I didn’t mind Steve Stoute’s comments at all. It’s almost impossible to say things the media/fan base won’t spin as negative (we went “HEY THIS GUY IS CONFIRMING MIKE MILLER WILL BE FIRED” instead of realizing he at least gave lip service to valuing Mitch and RJ and getting a coaching staff on board that will develop these guys), and Mike Miller is not a good NBA head coach.

    If Steve Stoute means we hire JVG and a bunch of guys who know what they’re doing, then who cares if he confirmed Mike Miller will not be back? This is New York; you don’t need to be the best at your job to be at the top of the league. I wish we hired one of the league’s top execs, too, but this storm is inconsequential. They didn’t trade for John Wall or anything.

  12. i kind of like stoute’s reply…from now on whenever i say some stupid shit and someone calls me on it – i’ll simply reply: i may have inadvertently insinuated what you think you heard me say…

  13. Sterling was the owner of the Clippers for 30 years of gross incompetence and only got fired because he got caught saying racist shit. There’s a zero chance the league ever intervenes with Dolan, unless he literally leads the Knicks to bankruptcy which we all know is kinda impossible.

  14. Hubert:
    The extra E in Stoute really annoys me.Who does he think he is, Shawne Williams?

    I literally just laughed out loud

  15. glass half rebuilt – did you listen to the interview?

    it wasn’t just what he said about miller that was disconcerting – it was damn near every word out of his mouth…

    not only that – why in the heck was he talking at all…the interview with espn just didn’t happen by accident…that was a plan…a plan very poorly conceived and executed…

    and Mike Miller is not a good NBA head coach.,

    …how do you know this?

  16. You guys have a short memory as far as JVG is concerned. He bailed on the team when he saw the writing on the wall without Ewing, Sprewell and a fragile Houston > 30 there was no future with the franchise.

    Fair enough as he salvaged his reputation and got another big shot in Houston but the only reason for him to come back now is to sign a huge 4-5 year contract and hope to get fired in year two. This team isn’t some magic bullet quick fix away from contention…. there is exactly one player on the team you can bank on as being a real NBA player…..

  17. the whole statement was horribly constructed

    a total of 33 words…and, it just reads worse every time i look at it…it kind of sounds like he’s blaming the whole thing on being on “LIVE” tv…

    the only real consolation in the whole thing – i know the response to the interview must have irked the hell out of jimmy D…

  18. JVG has not coached on any level since 2007. He has occupied his time by taking a high-paying job where he is paid to talk, argue and have hot takes that are unmeasurable, if not wholly inconsequential. I do not understand how the hiring of a man who’s been retired for 13 years would be considered a win.

    You might as well hire a computer programmer who hasn’t written code in 13 years. “Well, the principles are the same…”

  19. @geo,

    Mike Miller is not a good coach for a few reasons;

    1) He lets Julius Randle go iso-Randle far too often.
    2) The Knicks rarely run P&R sets for Mitchell Robinson.
    3) Mitchell Robinson rarely goes over 25 minutes a game.
    4) Wayne Ellington gets serious playing time.
    5) I still don’t see a cohesive offensive approach despite the parts to do it being available (play Payton/Robinson P&R and let Bullock/Dotson/Ellington/Portis spread the floor like the Houston Rockets would do. Barrett and Randle can attack off balance defenses once we get guys rotating).

    I just don’t think he’s a difference maker of an NBA head coach.

    Also, I definitely did watch the whole interview and I see nothing damning about it. He said a whole bunch of nothing and the one thing the media could pin him to the wall for, they did. He is also not a basketball guy, but a guy hired to make people think the Knicks are cool again. He was asked questions he had no business answering so he said stupid things. I really don’t any of this is consequential. When we sign Mark Jackson to a 5 year deal and burn our draft picks and cap space on busts, that will be consequential. That interview was full of nothing.

  20. Here is where I delude myself into thinking that Stoute so spectacularly shit the bed that it makes Dolan question the process by which he hired Rose, and he backs out before Rose can decertify and leave CAA.

    I know, I know… but a boy can dream, can’t he?

  21. I think the big issue is we don’t have a no-brainer head coach out there. Brett Brown is going to be fired, but I don’t know how I feel about his ability as a coach. JVG feels right but hasn’t done it in forever. Maybe they can go grab Gregg Marshall from Wichita State, but even then I’m not sure that guy is the next Brad Stevens. Hopefully they’re smart enough to have David Blatt sit in on the interviews and pick the right guy.

  22. Nothing screams “cool” like going on national TV to ramble about how you are in fact very cool.

    Pathetic.

  23. There has to be a assistant out there who’s got a good reputation for player development and/or X’s and O’s. I’d rather go for some potential Nick Nurse type, though I wouldn’t hate JVG’s return. I would, however, despise any attempt to give the job to Mark Jackson, and feel very depressed if we hired Thibs.

  24. Meanwhile, I just saw an NJ.com article saying that it could take Rose and Wes “several months” to separate themselves from their current business interests and begin running the team. That would, at minimum, explain why Dolan was in such a rush to close the deal now, since the new leadership needs to be in place when the offseason starts. But Guitar Jimmy is such a mercurial flake that it does potentially give us some wiggle room. I don’t believe it’ll happen, but what this comment presupposes is… maybe it could?

  25. fair enough glass half rebuilt…chances are very good i was simply primed to be triggered today…and ‘ol cheerleader steve provided the perfect opportunity…

    i do though think mister miller is doing a pretty good job keeping himself clean working in the knickerbocker cesspool…but, feeling a bit too lazy to fully explain why…

    it’s not just the g-league coach of the year thing, nor is it his .406 winning percentage – which, probably makes him the best coach we’ve had in a while…it’s a lot more eye testy, which is kind of embarrassing…

    i like the way he calls timeouts…it’s seems like he has a good feel for game tempo…i like the way he seems to have instilled some confidence in the players…we’ve won a couple of games there in the 4th quarter…i like the way he seems to have a shorter leash with the young players…last year was a great example how giving a young player unlimited run doesn’t do a whole lot to actually develop them…i like the fact he’s giving frank a chance to play off the ball…i like the way our defense looks lately…

    he seems to be a good communicator and teacher…

    i said it before – for our particular team – at this particular time – i think we would benefit from having either a g-league or college coach…

    definitely not thibs, calipari, jackson or jvg…no thanks…i like the fact miller doesn’t have a name (other than being the other mike miller) – it’s just so anti-knicksy…

  26. So, they can’t actually start working until around the time we could have tried to hire Ujiri?

    Awesome

    I don’t care who the coach is as long as it’s not Mark Jackson. If we were to actually get good with him as coach it would diminish my enjoyment of the team quite a bit. That would just be Dolan’s Razor showing off.

  27. this just made me feel a bit better about basketball and the world:
    When our child comes home with a question, when our child comes home with an issue, when our child comes home with anything, it’s our job as parents to listen to that, to give them the best information we can, the best feedback we can,” Wade told DeGeneres. “And that doesn’t change because sexuality is now involved.”

    Wade said that he and his wife, actress Gabrielle Union, are seeking more information to educate themselves about the LGBTQ community. Wade told DeGeneres that he reached out to the cast of “Pose,” an FX series about LGBTQ African American and Latino dancers in New York City.

    Wade said in December on the podcast “All The Smoke” that he has had to do some work on reframing his stance toward the transgender and gay community.

    “As we say in the hood, it’s ignant,” Wade said on the podcast. “I grew up with the same perspective as a lot of these people out here that’s a little ignant. I had to look myself in the mirror and say, ‘What if your son comes home and tells you he’s gay? What are you going to do? How are you going to be? How are you going to act? It ain’t about him. He knows who he is. It’s about you. Who are you?'”

    “What is the point of being on this earth if you’re trying to be someone you’re not?” Zaya said in the video. “It’s like you are not even living as yourself, which is the dumbest concept to me. Be true, and don’t really care what the ‘stereotypical’ way of being you is.”

    zaya is 12 years old…maybe there is hope yet…

  28. If we are talking assistant coaches, Becky Hammond would be worth a look. She has developed a solid reputation as a contributor on Pops team. I get the Popovich tree is hit and miss but it could be worth a look.

  29. I would not wish this organization on Hammond. She will be facing an enormous historical burden as the NBA’s first female head coach. Having to work for this dysfunctional owner, surrounded by backstabbing execs, plus the Anucha Brown Sanders lawsuit still lingering over the whole arena… no. I want her to do well in her first job; I can’t imagine that happening here.

  30. i forgot who wrote it, but, i remember someone writing down that they had serious misgivings about encouraging their kids to be knick fans…

    mama, don’t let your babies grow up to be

  31. Having to work for this dysfunctional owner, surrounded by backstabbing execs, plus the Anucha Brown Sanders lawsuit still lingering over the whole arena… no. I want her to do well in her first job; I can’t imagine that happening here.

    That’s fair.

    Basketball reasons aside, it could be the start of a real positive cultural shift for the organisation (if she is able to get the support you mentioned, and it is a big if here).

  32. Meanwhile

    After internal discussions with the New York Knicks occurred about the possibility of “Worldwide Wes” joining the franchise in a front office role alongside player agent Leon Rose, William Wesley is no longer expected to join the franchise in any formal capacity, league sources have told The Athletic.

  33. I didn’t have a huge problem with hiring Leon Rose in a vacuum (it’s not the direction I would have gone, but it’s a reasonable enough decision), but I never understood why having some old mentor guy join the team was supposed to be such a good thing (like Bill Simmons suggested at the time of the hiring). I don’t even have a problem with Wesley, I just don’t get how he was supposed to have any kind of impact. He’s a 55-year-old consultant whose job seems to be “be nice to players.”

  34. Also, Wes’ period of huge influence feels like a long time ago. Maybe he’s still as active today, but all the famous anecdotes I heard were a decade old or more. Do the 20something superstars today care at all who he is?

  35. Lol so Wes immediately pulls out now? I’m just picturing Dolan barely being able to keep from erupting like Ralph Kramden. I can’t even…

  36. Lugentz Dort started a basketball game tonight. Who cares what Zion Williamson did?

    Also, this shit is falling a part again. Worldwide Wes is backing out, next thing you know the Leon Rose deal is going to fall through and Steve Stoute will be the next POBO.

  37. @geo, it’s a serious issue! I moved to the states in 2001. I was living in CT and picked the Knicks as my team partly because they’d been in the playoffs pretty perennially and I was tired of rooting for longstanding bad teams in my hometown. Talk about a great choice with perfect timing :)

    20 years later, I’m about to move back to CT. And I look at my kids who are 10, and think “I want them to be Knicks fans, but jeez, can I really wish this on them?”. I look at teams like the Celtics, Lakers, Jazz, Rockets, Heat, Mavs, Pacers…and it feels like they’ve had a few down years here and there but on the whole just so well managed. I wish the Knicks could be like them. How hard is it? Even when those teams are bad there’s legitimate hope.

    They’ll be Knicks fans of course, but…ugh…poor kids.

  38. well james…we do have cool gear…shoot, most anything with an ny on it plays well though…

    I think rooting for the knicks could almost be considered a sign of character…

    despite improbable odds and inumerable evil forces in the universe actively and aggressively plotting and acting against us all – we’re still here…

  39. I think rooting for the knicks could almost be considered a sign of character…

    despite improbable odds and inumerable evil forces in the universe actively and aggressively plotting and acting against us all – we’re still here…

    I was once told Knicks fans were the best basketball fans to date, because despite all the shit you know they will stay loyal ha ha

  40. “You guys have a short memory as far as JVG is concerned. He bailed on the team when he saw the writing on the wall without Ewing, Sprewell and a fragile Houston > 30 there was no future with the franchise.”

    The way I remember it, Van Gundy lost several close friends on September 11th, and he lost the fire for coaching. (He said at one point that he wanted to become a magician, which I took literally at the time, but I guess he was speaking metaphorically from the pits of his depression).

    Maybe he was using that as an excuse for bailing before the going got rough, but I was less cynical as a fan back then and took him at his word.

  41. “Sterling was the owner of the Clippers for 30 years of gross incompetence and only got fired because he got caught saying racist shit. There’s a zero chance the league ever intervenes with Dolan, unless he literally leads the Knicks to bankruptcy which we all know is kinda impossible.”

    There’s a 0% chance Dolan’s not going to say racist shit? He’s been known to sober-email some pretty nasty stuff to fans. And Cablevision has had racism lawsuits. (Hell, there’s more than a 0% chance that I’ll say some racist shit, and I am the only white person in my entire family).

  42. Here is where I delude myself into thinking that Stoute so spectacularly shit the bed that it makes Dolan question the process by which he hired Rose, and he backs out before Rose can decertify and leave CAA.

    I know, I know… but a boy can dream, can’t he?

    this was my first thought. Now my hopes lie in the possibility that Leon Rose pulls out. Dolan’s not going to pull out. Not after the Nets humiliated him and the Lakers got LeBron Anthony Davis with their version of Leon Rose. That’s about as deep as Dolan is capable of thinking I think. Rose on the other hand might be smart enough to start questioning the choice to leave CAA and join the team based on this recent event.

  43. If anything this shit show gives me an incentive to root for wins. First because Miller is now cast as the good guy, whether he’s a good coach or not, and wins are good for him. Second because a high lottery pick would anyway go vie Rose & Stoute for the next marketing star, fake basketball star.

    The only hope, really, is that Rose and Stoute would start their power struggle right now, instead of in the off season, and this crap implodes sooner rather than later.

  44. JVG has not coached on any level since 2007. He has occupied his time by taking a high-paying job where he is paid to talk, argue and have hot takes that are unmeasurable, if not wholly inconsequential. I do not understand how the hiring of a man who’s been retired for 13 years would be considered a win.

    This is not really true, although I sort of get what you’re saying. He’s been coaching the USA Select team since 2017 and has led a bunch of G-leaguers and borderline NBA players to wins over (some) legitimate international teams.

    Re: the World Wide Wes thing – I find this all to be pretty interesting in terms of the sourcing.

    I listened to Woj’s interview with Michael Kay on the day of the Leon Rose news and he was very clear that he was NOT reporting that Wes would be part of Rose’s front office – he actually said this a couple times.

    Remember that Woj is repped by CAA and so presumably has a direct line to Leon Rose. The Wes news really came from Shams, who I don’t believe is repped by CAA, then was propagated across the Twittersphere by everyone else. It certainly could be that Woj’s source is actually Leon Rose or someone extremely close to Rose, and Shams’s source is Wes himself — meaning that maybe Wes really thought he was going to be part of the FO and that Rose basically never told him that in any sort of definite manner.

    Anyway, color me completely happy that Wes is not part of this whole thing. We don’t need more cool networking dudes trying to make self-serving FA splashes. Just build a competent, smart, and nimble organization and the free agents will come.

  45. The Wes news really came from Shams, who I don’t believe is repped by CAA, then was propagated across the Twittersphere by everyone else.

    Wes probably repped Rose while signing with the Knicks. It’s never a good idea to be your own rep. Shams likely heard Wes was at MSG or involved in talks and jumped to conclusions.

  46. Personally I want nothing to do with big time free agents. Most of them aren’t worth the $35M AAV and that’s not the way you build a healthy roster. I want us to do what the Miami Heat, Indiana Pacers, and Toronto Raptors have done, and not what the Lakers did. Just build a program that continues its success by consistently finding underpaid talent. I don’t want to throw everything away so Paul George and Bradley Beal can lose in the 2nd round of the playoffs.

  47. I think some people are making this more complicated than it is.

    1. Dolan is an idiot.

    2. Dolan has a lot of money

    3. Dolan has business interests outside basketball

    4. Dolan is willing to spend a lot of money on his businesses, teams, executives, coaches etc…

    5. Sometimes, individuals with excellent people skills and business/basketball connections use them to get close to Dolan. They market themselves as capable bringing a winner to NY and making a lot of money for Dolan in order to land high paying jobs for themselves and their friends even though they are unqualified.

    6. Dolan is an idiot and continuously falls for this nonsense. So he often hires people (and their friends) that are not qualified for their positions.

    7. Within this, he occasionally hires a competent in some capacity, but the organization is still so corrupted by “users” from the past, the competent people eventually get driven out to make way for more “users”.

    This is why a real competent like Griffin insisted that he be able to gut everything, bring in all his own people, and have full control before he’d take the job. Without that guarantee, he knew he could try his best but ultimately he’d fail and eventually be driven out in disgrace by the leaches still in place just like others.

  48. So I forgot that Wes is actually part of CAA somehow also — so maybe my theory about there being a disconnect between Rose and Wes seems less likely given their long history together. Maybe they’ve just decided it’s better for Wes to be unofficially working for the Knicks than officially working for the Knicks.

  49. I’m pretty close to finally bailing on this organization for good after around 50 years. It has been a love/hate relationship for awhile now, but I think I’m finally past my limit. I grew up with Frazier, Reed, Monroe, Holtzman etc.. and know what it’s like to root for a “TEAM” that defends, plays hard, plays together, shares the ball etc.. I know what it feels like to love the players, the team, and the organization and to actually WIN.

    I love Clyde, Breen, Hahn, Wally, Rebecca, Jill and the rest of MSG people.

    I love most of our players (a couple not so much).

    I like Miller.

    Maybe it’s a sign of maturity on my part (I’m a late bloomer), but I can’t root for an organization and people I don’t like and think are qualified anymore. I can’t root for guys I think are leaches that know less about basketball than I do (and that’s not bragging).

    To me, this reorganization is another first step in the wrong direction and I can’t take it any more of this.

  50. I just don’t think he’s a difference maker of an NBA head coach.

    Most coaches who are difference makers make a negative difference. If you have a guy who isn’t out there making blunders you might as well keep him.

    They have this boneheaded notion at MSG that coaches are saviors and should be the face of your franchise. I feel like they should be waiters. The less you notice them, the better.

  51. CLOWN SHOW

    Actually against all odds getting WORSE !

    Miller should quit and go to a professionally run organization.

    Disgusting, embarrassing, vile, incompetent…

    Been a die hard since Early 70’s. Named my first dog Clyde.

    This is just too damn much.

    I’m going to take two weeks off and then quit for good

  52. Most coaches who are difference makers make a negative difference. If you have a guy who isn’t out there making blunders you might as well keep him.

    They have this boneheaded notion at MSG that coaches are saviors and should be the face of your franchise. I feel like they should be waiters. The less you notice them, the better.

    I dunno, I would prob come out of this with the opposite perspective. Most coaches probably make no difference at all, so they’re basically fungible, so why keep someone who makes no difference rather than trying to find one that makes a positive difference?

    Look at the teams that have won championships in the last few years – certainly they mostly have the best players, but the only winning coach in the last 20 years that is unlikely to be in the HoF is Tyronn Lue, and he just happened to have the best player on the planet maybe ever on his team.

    Nick Nurse – too early to say, but he is obviously much much better than the “do no harm” Dwayne Casey
    Kerr is going to the HoF
    Pop is going to the HoF
    Spoelstra is going to the HoF
    Carlisle maybe not going to the HoF but he’s a damn good coach
    Phil Jackson already is in the HoF

    When it gets to playoffs time, in-game tactics really matter. Every team in the playoffs knows exactly what the other team is trying to do. Coaches that can design good plays to break tendencies, understand what adjustments the other team is making, etc are invaluable.

  53. Karnisovas is actually an interesting guy, he’s been with the Nuggets since 2013 and became the GM in 2017, he’s said to be a very reserved guy who wants to work outside of the spotlight and he made some pretty shrewd moves. But he was speculated with a lot of teams, the Nets, Bucks, even the Sixers when they got Brand contacted him but he rejected to take an interview apparently.

  54. The optimistic take would have two positives:

    1. Dolan finally told somebody to stay in his lane, and very publicly. Which means he finally might get the concept of lanes and defined areas of responsibility.
    2. Names like the Denver GM guy are kind of obscure, which means they might not be starfucking and are strongly considering as an important factor, actual excellence.

  55. Tyronne Lue might be a pretty good coach. I’d like to see him get a shot with another good team. He obviously coached Lebron, but Lebron’s career suggests that’s not the easiest thing in the world and he coached a team that came from 3-1 down against a 73 win team. What’s Brad Stevens ever won?

  56. Those of you who are thinking of bailing on the team, I can’t blame you and I totally empathize. This doesn’t appear to be a golden era headed in our direction, this seems very much like it’s going to be another 3-5 years of the same absurd cycle.

    I do hope you’ll all stick around this place and hatewatch and continue participating in the glorious snark and gallows humor. This team sucks but this blog is great and it’s the only reason I still follow the day to day business of this laughingstock sports team.

  57. Like JK47 says, I don’t blame anyone who wants to bail on this dumpster fire. But I also agree that there’s some perverse joy to be had in marveling at the black comedy of these boobs who do everything wrong in every possible way.

  58. I watched Miller’s post practice interview yesterday.
    I am more and more convinced that this is the perfect guy to lead this team.
    He stays focused on basketball, doesn’t get swept up by celebrity, and is a solid Xs and Os guy.
    He seems laser-focused on developing the guys and helping them work as a team. Yesterday’s practice was all about end of game scenarios, exactly the kind of thing the Knicks need to do.
    In my mind this team has the grit to be in most games; how to finish will be of paramount importance.

    Mild-mannered, just the facts basketball coach. More please.

  59. Why have Miller be your coach when you can have Mark Jackson and all the palace intrigue and petty drama that he brings to the table? Let’s really Knicks this thing up. I need Mark Jackson dick pic stripper drama or I’m not gonna be satisfied.

  60. I too go back before the late ’60’s glory days. The chips won were made all the sweeter by
    the suckitude that came before them. It is hard to not become alienated by the dystopian It’s Groundhog Day narrative that seemingly will get another 3 to 5-year extension. This board is, in addition to the analytical sophistication , a virtual group therapy session platform for those of us who cannot break it off with this team. I think it is easier to permanently sever any emotional connection with a former significant other than it is with this team. I am also intrigued by the attraction that the Knicks have to many of
    the outside of the area denizens of this board.

  61. I’m even more convinced that you built this team’s character around Mitch.
    I see a utility in keeping a guy like Randle around. He’s a solid 20-10 guy who likely will get his TS back to .600, which was his average over the past two seasons. There is a toughness to Randle’s game that I like, but I hope we can make him the second option. Either that or teach him to play more heads up. He’s too predictable when he puts his head down and drives.

    But the guard play will always hold this team back. The Knicks need to target the best guard in the draft, or trade for the best available point guard.
    I like Frank as the 2. I also love his defensive play.

    Turn these guys into a grinding team. I want to hear the Garden screaming DEFENSE every game throughout the 4th period.

  62. I think it’s amusing we’re going to miss Scott Perry soon…

    I’m 100% against the Leon Rose thing. If it works out I’m willing to eat all the crow.

  63. The Honorable Cock Jowles: JVG has not coached on any level since 2007. He has occupied his time by taking a high-paying job where he is paid to talk, argue and have hot takes that are unmeasurable, if not wholly inconsequential. I do not understand how the hiring of a man who’s been retired for 13 years would be considered a win.

    You might as well hire a computer programmer who hasn’t written code in 13 years. “Well, the principles are the same…”

      

    Dick Vermeil’s Super Bowl ring says “hello.”

  64. “I watched Miller’s post practice interview yesterday.”

    Same here.

    After that interview, I felt totally satisfied we were in competent focused hands without the snake oil, had a solid plan to develop players and improve the team step by step, and were showing signs of progress on court to match the rhetoric. I’m not opposed to hiring Thibs or JVG. They are both fine coaches. But I don’t want to do it because they have a bigger name. I want to do if and only if by the end of the season we feel differently about Miller, because right now based on this small sample I think he’s the best coach we’ve had in awhile.

  65. “Did Miller say anything about the rotations and why the kids are playing so little?”

    He might have said something quick, but if he did, it wasn’t a question he spent a lot of time on. To be honest, it was hard to hear the questions. I wasn’t even sure which player he was talking about at times. He was mostly talking about how they were working to develop and expand players’ roles. He also said some good things about Harkless defending multiple positions well in practice.

  66. I’m just glad I really enjoy basketball and find that I like watching it regardless of rooting for one particular team. It’s been a very good season to watch from a pure spectator POV, diverse contenders, Ja Morant, Zion, other interesting young teams.

    That’s why I can stay with the Knicks through all this shit, because there’s enough good basketball going around that I don’t have to depend on the Knicks. At this point this blog is far more important than the team to me, because I’m officially hopeless and fully expect a sequence of disasters very soon.

  67. I finally found the interview and listened to it. But it’s hard to hear the questions. There were two parts were Miller discussed particular players and I had to guess what he was talking about. Does anyone know who the two players were? It was after his discussion of Harkless.

  68. i would be nearly as bummed about thibs as i was about mark jackson. given his reputation, i was surprised to hear how closed minded and generally unimpressive he sounded doing interviews and podcasts during his post bulls hiatus. but what really got me was what he did when he had butler and kat in 17-18.

    specifically he played jamal crawford 21 minutes a game (and more in the playoffs). jamal crawford was pretty terrible by then, but specifically he was maybe the worst defender in the league. the timberwolves were a top 5 offense and a bottom 4 defense. they had a bad defensive center in towns and a couple of other pretty mediocre defenders playing a lot in teague and wiggins. and they also had a good defensive backup guard option in tyus jones. playing crawford as much as he did was crazy, crawford wasn’t even all that good on offense any more. there were multiple guys available to pick up that would have been better for the wolves that year than crawford.

    the year before he did something also kind weird, tho less consequential, by splitting minutes between shabazz, another horrific defender and below replacement guy, and bjelica, a decent player.

  69. The main Thibs problem is that rules changes have mostly made his famous Celtics championship-winning defense obsolete, and once that’s not a factor, he takes much more off the table than he puts onto it.

  70. JVG on Miller:
    “He’s not the kind to win the press conference,” Van Gundy said during an interview with The Athletic. “All he’ll try to do is win the games. He is giving credit to the players. I think because of that it’s bread-and-butter basketball. It’s no thrills. It’s not gimmicky. It’s not something he gamed. It’s just fundamental, bread-and-butter basketball. What is winning in the NBA has always won in the NBA. Get more better shots than your opponent.”

    I just found this, and it jives perfectly with my impression. Particularly the “win the press conference” commentary. That was my sense of the presser yesterday. This dude is not a peacock or a scold. He offers straight basketball answers to questions. It is the perfect approach to NY media.
    Fizdale was getting hammered in part because of his preening. Others get killed because they personalize shit. So far, Miller is pitch perfect. Modest and basketball smart. Love it.

    JVG also said he wouldn’t be surprised if at the end of the season Miller has done such a good job he keeps it.

    This was back in late december

  71. “there’s enough good basketball going around that I don’t have to depend on the Knicks.”

    This is the thinking of every free agent of the 21st century too.

  72. i honestly don’t see how you guys watch these mike miller interviews and come away with anything at all. it’s true he’s not full of shit, which is nice, but he also doesn’t really venture beyond meaningless interview-speak. a lot of coaches are like that, it’s not an indictment, but you have to be a superhero tea leaf reader to get to any kind of worthwhile opinion. i think ai dungeon could probably pass the mike miller turing test if you gave it enough source material.

  73. I remember Patrick Ewing speaking in nothing but cliches for 15 straight years here. Would he go home and talk to his wife and kids in cliches? Probably not. He just knew that saying anything of any substance to the New York media was counter-productive.

  74. It’s not true you come away with nothing from the Miller interview. He talked about details of what the Knicks are working on in a way that some other coaches haven’t. For example he said the Knicks worked on end of game situations recently and they put a focus on deflections as part of defense. When discussing Harkless, he said they tried out his defense of different positions during practice. It makes him sound like a nuts and bolts coach, rather than a motivational speaker.

  75. MIller is playing the mercenaries way too much for my tastes, and reacting to Frank’s Brooklyn game by making him a two guard was pretty clueless stuff.

    I’m not going to use Fizdale as the bar, so hard pass.

  76. He talked about details of what the Knicks are working on in a way that some other coaches haven’t.

    literally every coach ever has given at least that level of detail

    For example he said the Knicks worked on end of game situations recently and they put a focus on deflections as part of defense.

    But none of that will start without us being a great defensive team. You know, we’re going to be a team that really plays a pressure, physical style of basketball. Get a lot of deflections, try to get a lot of steals…

    When discussing Harkless, he said they tried out his defense of different positions during practice.

    I just see so many different ways to use him. Obviously if you play him at some 5, it’s like that super lineup you always seeing from different teams, I don’t even know how you match up with him from that perspective. But he can play 4. I mean, if you have another space, speed guy at the 4, he might even be able to play just positionless

    courtesy of coach fiz. you can google the post practice fizdale interviews and in between the bs he almost always gives much more specific details than miller. i remember one where he specifically talks about spending half of practice just flashing and hedging the weak side defense early instead of automatically switching on the strong side. i think some of you are hearing what you want to hear. i agree that on the court one or two things look clearly better.

  77. I don’t feel strongly one way or another about Miller as a coach. My guess is he’s replacement level, probably better than Fiz but isn’t going to reinvent the wheel. The 33 win pace he’s on is more or less where a lot of us thought this team would wind up, assuming decent health luck.

    However, he does seem like a good dude and he’s worked his ass off to get here. It pisses me off that a grifter like Steve Stoute feels he has license to be so dismissive of him. No need to beat a dead horse, so I’ll just agree that this is simply not something a competent organization would ever let happen.

  78. I don’t know yet if Miller is any good, but if the alternatives are Thibs and JVG, I’ll take Miller. Thibs runs an antiquated scheme and insists on playing his best players 40 min every game regardless of score. JVG hasn’t coached in forever and routinely makes disparaging comments about the league’s style of play.

    Screw nostalgia, screw big names, screw New York roots. Just hire competent people. It’s not hard.

  79. The fact that Steve StoutE, a marketing “guru” can’t stay one step ahead of the First Take Brain Trust tells me all I need to know about his marketing acumen.

    However, guys like him don’t target people like us, so this terrible experiment may work from a marketing perspective. It also means that we’ll be the New York Cellar Dwellers for the next half decade. It truly does feel like I’ve been getting trolled for the last 20 years.

  80. That Rose is interested in the hottest young GMs around from one of the best organizations around (in spite of the Kroenkes) is great to hear, but isn’t he under contract? And wouldn’t this be a lateral move for him? So wouldn’t the Knicks have to compensate Denver for him, if he’s even interested?

    I think that’s partially why Denver made him GM, to specifically make him difficult to poach.

  81. I’ve been crazy busy but thanks for this thread Brian. How Knicksy can you get? The FIRST THING the guy picked to help improve the Knicks image does is put his size 12 EEE feet into his mouth!

  82. Oh, and about Miller, he’s done more with the team this past month than Fiz did in a year and a half. He deserves a shot and I’m liking that a career coach that had to climb every rung of every ladder finally has an NBA head coaching job and has turned the team around. It’s a Jeremy Lin type story.

  83. I don’t understand what the PBO does that a GM doesn’t. Why would we want to hire Rose as PBO and then hire Karnisovas as GM to work for him? Why not just hire Karnisovas as a PBO.

  84. i agree that on the court one or two things look clearly better.

    ptmilo,

    I mean, this plus the fact you acknowledged there wasn’t a lot of the peacocking Fizdale does are two major differences between the two.

    The team is clearly better since Miller took over. Not just a little. They are a lot better.
    Fizdale was 4-18 before getting canned.
    Miller is 13-19.

    Since Fizdale was fired this is how they improved:
    * assists increased from 20.7 to 26.6,
    * rebounds jumped from 44 to 49
    * points 101.7 to 113.2

    opponents
    * rebounds are down from 44.7 to 37
    * 3pt down from 13 to 12
    * FT down 20.7 to 18
    * ORBs down 9.4 to 6.
    * ppg are down from 114.4 to 110.8.

    These are not small improvements since Miller came on board. They also jive well with my eyeball sense that the defense is more stout.

  85. “I don’t understand what the PBO does that a GM doesn’t. Why would we want to hire Rose as PBO and then hire Karnisovas as GM to work for him? Why not just hire Karnisovas as a PBO.”

    I think it depends on the organization…some don’t have the two positions…at MSG…the Rangers are similar with a President, GM and Coach…so perhaps one of the eight zillion consultants that Dolan hired…they told him that was the best way to do it….

    How they divy up what each is responsible for…I don’t know but seems like on the Rangers …President is like visionary of where the team needs to go and the GM executes the vision (trades, drafting, salary cap, etc), including picking the coach with the President’s blessing…

    I could go either way on Miller…maybe he is another Nick Nurse story…the other night watching the Grizzlies…their coach looked like a younger Miller…I don’t even know who he was but seems like he has done a good job given the roster he was handed…

  86. Here’s an interesting question for you all.

    A lot of people on here don’t want us to win meaningless late season games because it hurts our odds at a better pick.

    But given this talk of a big name coach like Mark Jackson, do you think its better for the team and Miller to eke out as many wins as possible and get the 8th seed or even barely just miss the playoffs and get a lower seed or would you rather the team lose more games, get a higher pick, fire Miller and bring in Mark Jackson?

    Your choices are we get the 8th seed and lose to The Bucks in 4 or miss the playoffs by one game and get the worst pick possible, but Miller is given a 2 year guaranteed contract. Or we lose more games, get a top 3 pick but Miller is fired and replaced by Mark Jackson.

  87. But given this talk of a big name coach like Mark Jackson, do you think its better for the team and Miller to eke out as many wins as possible and get the 8th seed or even barely just miss the playoffs and get a lower seed or would you rather the team lose more games, get a higher pick, fire Miller and bring in Mark Jackson?

    I love how many of our debates involve assuming (correctly) that the people who run this team can’t be trusted and have to be protected from their own worst impulses.

  88. How they divy up what each is responsible for…I don’t know but seems like on the Rangers …President is like visionary of where the team needs to go and the GM executes the vision (trades, drafting, salary cap, etc), including picking the coach with the President’s blessing

    My experience of corporate ofganizations is that it is very rare to have an executive, like Mills, with basically one direct report. I think there must be more to the job than just vision. It could be that things like Marketing reported to Mills but not to Perry. But assuming the GM is going to be primarily responsible for executing trades and managing the salary cap, as you describe, I say give Perry the job. He clearly does trades and signings well. In terms of drafting, Robinson was a good pick, Barrett was a normal pick but Knox is quite questionable. But the picking Knox seems to relate to vision too, since they clearly went with a project instead of a more accomplished player So that choice was at least partly Mills‘ vision.

  89. Mark Jackson is a shitty coach and an even worse person but he probably would only last a year. Tough call.

  90. it’s pretty clear that the direction of the knicks are to win every game possible…

    we’re i to have a say – i wanna say i’d try to influence things to head in the direction of tanking, but – right now – i think it’s time to try and play some winning basketball…hope we increase some of our current players value, and – hope for some luck in the lottery drawing despite finishing the season with probably the 10th worst record in the league…

  91. Agree…PBO…does or oversees other aspects of the organization…as well as working with the GM to make sure they agree on execution (drafting…contracts..etc)

    Even if we try…i dont see us anywhere above than 6 to 8th worst record…its all kind of moot from here on out other than vying for a few extra percentage points in probability of the top pick…

  92. When the Nets reached the NBA Finals in 2002 and 2003, I didn’t jump on the bandwagon because 1) they were still in Jersey and 2) the Knicks had recently come off a 14-year period of being in the playoffs themselves, with 2 years in the Finals.

    If the Nets continue to improve and reach the conference finals or beyond in the coming years, and the Knicks continue to flounder … I may just follow them. I do not feel the allegiance I felt in 2002 & 2003. Hell, I may reach down to Philly if things get desperate enough. But not Boston. Never Boston.

  93. I followed some account called Fastbreak breakfast and they just posted this to point out that one of the best three man units in the NBA includes Melton, JJJ, and Brandon Clarke.

    More interesting perhaps though was that Patrick Beverley features in four of these. I guess there is significant double counting but it’s interesting overall how many forgettable guys slide into this list alongside superstars.

    Chris Paul in there twice too, including in a trio with Schroder and SGA

    https://twitter.com/fastbreakbreak/status/1227710843925803008/photo/1

  94.  Why not just hire Karnisovas as a PBO.

    Sadly, I think it’s just as simple as him not being famous enough. But yes, had they done that, it would have made a ton of sense.

    As to the difference between POBO and GM, for most teams, the POBO is basically the GM and the GM is essentially his assistant. Like Mills and Perry.

    Some teams, though, have a more laissez faire POBO and the GM is more in charge of decision making. That might be why people think Karnisovas is a possibility, since he might be going from a place where he’s Tim Connelly’s underling to being the guy who actually makes the calls here.

    That would show some remarkable basketball aptitude by Rose if he was cool with that.

  95. This Ringer piece was, well, another source of preoccupation, but it also ends with such a weird statement… that the Myers hire worked because the Warriors had the infrastructure in place, including Kerr as a coach, who was actually hired 3 years after Myers, and Draymond who was drafted in 2012. Weird to see an article end with such a blatant mistake like this.

  96. I’d rather have Perry. It’s not that I think his drafting is great, nor do I trust his vision; but, over time, if he keeps making deals that bring value to the Knicks, like the Melo or Hernangomez trades for example, that value should accumulate. I should add that I don’t think his drafting is horrible either. Since he seems not to blow that value away with horrible signings, the Knicks should slowly get better. A new PBO could totally blow that value in a few years. Look how Philly has stalled out. Slow improvement is better than disaster.

  97. As an aside, I would like all Connellys and Connollys to get together and agree on how they will all spell their last name.

  98. This Ringer piece was, well, another source of preoccupation, but it also ends with such a weird statement… that the Myers hire worked because the Warriors had the infrastructure in place, including Kerr as a coach, who was actually hired 3 years after Myers, and Draymond who was drafted in 2012. Weird to see an article end with such a blatant mistake like this.

    They corrected it, but I really think they should have excised the paragraph period rather than just put “Steph Curry was in place” in place of the earlier paragraph.

  99. Not too keen on keeping Perry around. Knicks will likely be drafting in the 5-10 range. They can’t afford any more ‘creative’ gambles on dogshit prospects like Kevin Knox.

  100. There are really only two jobs: coach and GM. The GM puts the team together and the coach makes the team play together. President of Basketball Operations is a totally superfluous position and only teams with imbecilic starfucking owners obsess over it.

    As the Knicks have demonstrated, there is no value to a POBO who’s sole purpose is to express a vision for the franchise. In San Antonio, Popovich is the president and the coach, with Buford (And now some other guy I guess) as his chief-of-staff. This hierarchy works because the person with the vision is actually executing the vision. For it to work, SOMEBODY has to have vision + autonomy. The Dolan hierarchy hasn’t allowed it since Isiah ruined it for everybody to ever follow him.

  101. Ringer article was disappointing. I feel like it should have started with the last paragraph (in its corrected form). The thing that I think most fans don’t get is how teams get good. There are two paths:

    1. Lebron decides to join your team, usually for reasons entirely outside of your control such as branding/narrative or just because he wants to live in the city in which you’re located.
    2. You get and develop lots of young talent and picks.

    THere are a bunch of paths that start at number two… you can develop that young talent and end up a great home grown team ala Denver and Golden State. You can trade some or all of that young talent for a superstar like the Clippers with CP3 (keeping Blake) or the Celtics with KG and Ray Allen. Or, you can get good with that young talent with a ton of upside due to your cap flexibility and youth to the point that star FA decides to come play for you. This was what happened when Dwight went to Houston and when KD and Kyrie went to Brooklyn.

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