ESPN.com: New York Knicks agree with Nerlens Noel, Elfrid Payton on 1-year deals

From ESPN.com:

Free-agent center Nerlens Noel and point guard Elfrid Payton have each agreed to a one-year deal worth $5 million with the New York Knicks, their agents told ESPN’s Adrian Wojnarowski.

Noel, who is represented by Rich Paul and Lucas Newton of Klutch Sports, has jumped around the league since being taken sixth overall by the Sixers in the 2013 NBA draft. He was traded midway through his third season in Philadelphia, spent 1½ seasons with the Mavericks, and then signed a free-agent deal with the Thunder in July 2018.

The 26-year-old appeared in 61 games (seven starts) for OKC in the shortened 2019-20 season, averaging 7.4 points and 4.9 rebounds in 18.5 minutes.

He remains one of the game’s better shot-blockers; his 2.9 swats per 36 minutes this past season ranked sixth in the league.

Payton, who is represented by Aaron Mintz and Ty Sullivan of CAA, returns to the Knicks after averaging 10.0 points and 7.2 assists per game for them last season.

Wow! They actually got Noel! They needed a point guard, so bringing Payton back was fair enough, but Nerlens Noel? One of the most underrated players in the NBA? On the Knicks? On a one-year/$5 million deal? WOW!

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166 thoughts to “ESPN.com: New York Knicks agree with Nerlens Noel, Elfrid Payton on 1-year deals”

  1. And the strangest thing is that all of Rose’s other moves seem to suggest that he gets that, and yet he still reached for Quickly and then punted the #33 pick.

    This and other comments make it sound like the Knicks just threw a second round pick away. But they didn’t, they traded it for something, so the conversation should be did they get enough value? DJphan is arguing that there were good players to be had. That’s a legitimate opinion. In the latter part of the draft there are always going to be many opinions about who to pick and Djphan could be right. But even if he is right, we didn’t make a lousy deal trading it. We got a pick in return that many people perceive as a very valuable draft. So our return has good trade value. If you want to say strategically we should get a player now instead of later, I disagree. We have enough young players to evaluate now and I am happy we showed patience about getting more of them.

  2. Knick fan not in NJ: This and other comments make it sound like the Knicks just threw a second round pick away.But they didn’t, they traded it for something, so the conversation should be did they get enough value?DJphan is arguing that there were good players to be had. That’s a legitimate opinion.In the latter part of the draft there are always going to be many opinions about who to pick and Djphan could be right.But even if he is right, we didn’t make a lousy deal trading it. We got a pick in return that many people perceive as a very valuable draft.So our return has good trade value.If you want to say strategically we should get a player now instead of later, I disagree.We have enough young players to evaluate now and I am happy we showed patience about getting more of them.

    The thing is, they clearly have smart people crunching numbers about everything else. They may be off in interpreting them, but it’s hard to think that they didn’t crunch numbers on the value of a #33 pick in this draft with this team and cap situation. Doesn’t feel like a rash decision. I’m pretty neutral…I always like when there’s a new guy to evaluate and was looking forward to Oturu or someone. I liked the guy they picked at #23. I just think it’s not any indication of bad management, not far from 50-50 either way.

  3. My trust on the new FO is growing pretty fast

    If you were telling me a week ago that we would waive most mercs, avoid overpaying risky stars/semistars and grab nice additions cheaply I wouldn’t believe it

    Looks like we’ve started taking ourselves and our power as the most valuable nba team seriously

    And don’t tell me that noone wants to play for the knicks right now cause they suck cause Noel’s signing for 5M shows something different

  4. ***Seems like they’re leaving juuuuuuust enough cap space to do a Randle/DSjr for Westbrook trade…***

    I don’t even hate that move if they do it. It would be done with a purpose at this point, at least.

  5. I would hate that move.

    But I agree, if they do it they will have shown a sophistication of approach and an ability to execute I haven’t seen from our front office ever.

  6. MR + NN = block party
    Maybe the seed of a credible defensive identity for Thibs to build on.
    Always liked Nerlens and thought he’d look good in orange and blue.
    If his scoring is anywhere near as efficient as last year and he stays a force on d, this a crazy good deal.

  7. Also, as a fan of the 90’s Knicks I am very excited we will be getting 10 fouls per game from the center position.

  8. I’d rather a Perry Special 1or2 +1ish but Noel is a great backup for Mitch. No need to change the game plan.

    And for fuck’s sake don’t sign Westbrook, but so far I am really quite pleased with how this has gone, draft quibbles aside.

  9. But they signed a guy who mostly profiles like a shittier Mitch, so that makes me hopeful that they know what we have with him.

  10. And for fuck’s sake don’t sign Westbrook, but so far I am really quite pleased with how this has gone, draft quibbles aside.

    Yeah, besides my issue with the handling of #25/33, they’ve been very impressive through the first two days of free agency. They’ve shown a market understanding we haven’t had since…Ernie Grunfeld, I guess? And Grunfeld wasn’t even that good, he just knew the basics of how to run a basketball team. It seems like such a novelty now.

  11. I like it that they are trying to put together a team that fits together. That’s much better than a lot of power forwards that just happened to be available. This team might be better than the sum of its parts instead of worse (like last years team was)

  12. The similarities are many between Noel and Mitch. The main differences are a) Mitch appears to me even more fast twitch, longer, and more fluid offensively. Noel is much stronger and less foul-prone. Both can defend from the rim out to the 3-pt line. Those 3-pt shot and dribbling teases for Mitch isn’t real….can’t be…that’s too sick to imagine…

  13. I like it that they are trying to put together a team that fits together. That’s much better than a lot of power forwards that just happened to be available. This team might be better than the sum of its parts instead of worse (like last years team was)

    We also have a real coaching staff this time. We will still be bad, probably very bad, but it feels like we will look like an actual basketball team. I’ll take it.

    (If anyone has ever seen Mr. 3000, this is the point in the movie where the Brewers decide their big goal is to finish in 3rd place rather than last, like usual.)

  14. How about a lineup or Nerlens, Obi, Mitch, RJ and Russ? Let Russ play at a 40% usage for 30 minutes a night and let the rest of the team fight for the scraps…

  15. And really, if this current collection of players is just too good to get a good draft pick, then that’s a good thing, as there is no way that Burks, Payton and Noel are “carrying” this team to 37 wins. If the Knicks win in the high 30s, it will be because RJ made a leap and Toppin was good out of the gate and Mitch was Mitch. That’s a good place to be.

    And if they don’t win 30, then you try again by adding a lottery pick next summer and hope that the team develops enough to be promising in 2022, then.

  16. Z-man:
    How about a lineup or Nerlens, Obi, Mitch, RJ and Russ? Let Russ play at a 40% usage for 30 minutes a night and let the rest of the team fight for the scraps…

    (just kidding, of course, but there’s be lots of dunks and blocks!)

  17. so my whole gripe with the 2nd rd pick is that it’s a consistent pattern with the knicks with every gm to not respect every roster spot…. every draft pick and every roster spot is an opportunity to make your team better… and we constantly waste our 2nd rd picks in stupid trades or we draft like raw 25yo guys …. we constantly put guys with zero upside near the end of our roster and it’s a big reason why we have probably the worst collection of talent in the nba…. if we’re not the worst… we are probably in the bottom 3….

    and a bottom 3 team just punted on a high 2nd rd pick… that is unconscionable… if cleveland had pick 33 and then just gave their pick away for a future 2nd rd pick 3 years away you’d be like ‘lol wtf are they doin’…. there were other trades later on in the 2nd round in this draft that even got more value than we did….

    if you look at all the teams with competent front offices… they are fighting for every deal and roster spot to make sure that they are putting someone that has a decent chance to be something…. half of our guys are absolutely hopeless and will probably be out of the nba in a couple years…. and if our front office doesn’t recognize that then it’s a problem….

  18. OK. I like Nerlens. Good signing. I wish he had a real point guard to play with.

    frustrating, you would think that would be a top priority for any organization…

    so far so good…if elf stays healthy and can finish more consistently at the rim, maybe our offense won’t be that terrible…

    interesting that elf and nerlens only have 5 mil/1 year value in the league..

  19. djphan: if you look at all the teams with competent front offices… they are fighting for every deal and roster spot to make sure that they are putting someone that has a decent chance to be something…. half of our guys are absolutely hopeless and will probably be out of the nba in a couple years…. and if our front office doesn’t recognize that then it’s a problem….

    I can only judge this on what eventually happens with the roster spot, and there a number of ways to fill it. Based on their scouting, there wasn’t a single player who rated high enough to “exchange” for the #33 pick. I’m assuming they did their due diligence, like they seem to have about everything else. it doesn’t have to cost a pick to use a roster spot well.

    I know one thing for sure…we are very well positioned for the 2023 draft and I totally buy the double-draft theory. I stand by my belief that the 2023 draft pick will have more value in a trade than Dotson will. You can only pick one player. You said Dotson. Let’s see how it turns out.

  20. I like Payton and Noel at 5 million per year, but I worry that it is not of much value long-term. In Noel’s case, we would not even get early bird rights in case we wanted to keep him. Those 1-year deals are more the kind that a contender makes for ring-chasers, when all the cap is taken by their superstars.

    And I don’t think Thibs signed for tanking.

    So…

    What would you think if we trade for Harden with a package centered around RJ Barrett and 2 firsts? Everyone is assuming that he goes to the Nets, but I just don’t see their offer enticing for Houston. Thibs and a great defensive team around Harden sounds like a recipe for success.

  21. I can’t see RJ and Two firsts being close to enough for Harden. Look at the Paul George/Jrue Holiday/AD trades. Top players come at such a massive premium – and Harden may be the best of all of them. It would take RJ, Mitch and multiple unprotected picks (I think at least 3) to get it done.

  22. Just one thought on the 33rd pick debate. I agree that if there really wasn’t any one they felt worth using the pick in then fine to trade it. What gets me is that Quickley would almost certainly have been there at 33. If they wanted Carey they could literally have just picked them the other way around. But really, are we saying highly regarded guards like Terry and Flynn at 25 weren’t worth a punt if we could still have the guy we liked at 33?

  23. Other than that I think we’ve had a really good offseason so far. Almost none of the deals signed are ones I wish we’d got in on. I’d slightly prefer we’d taken a wing or guard at 8 (Vassell or Hali) and then signed Wood, but Toppin was hardly a reach at 8 and profiles as a very good complement to RJ and Mitch which is what we said we all wanted. Around that we’ve added low cost shooting and character guys and maintained space for a trade or next summer. The one major drawback is that with a pg who can’t shoot we really leave ourselves little flex in terms of lineups that maximise RJs strengths.

    Personally I’d still make an offer to Bogdanovic on that basis. But overall I rate us a solid B-.

  24. Woke up to some of the Knicks Film School/Strickland guys speculating that Rose isn’t just going to call it a day here, and that these bargain signings are precursor to a Randle trade or some other larger deal. I’d still like to see if we can pry a PG away from New Orleans, or see if Utah still wants to keep Conley, or something else. I’d like a better starting PG than Payton to help the kids’ development; it’s just a question of who’s expendable on other teams and what the cost would be.

  25. Looking forward to next year’s free agent class (because this is going to be an season of epic futility), DSJr and Frank are both RFAs. Anyone here making a qualifying offer? Didn’t think so. Let’s look at what’s left. Kevin Knox, RJ Barrett, Obi Toppin, Mitch, Iggy, Quickly and what else? A couple of hyped rookies? Are you, as a free agent coming?

    If the Knicks are going to have ANY chance of building a team, or ever signing another free agent, there needs to be something here first. Unless there are 2 or 3 of the kids I listed playing big time ball by next year, we’re going to stay on this treadmill of despair. By big time ball I mean all-star competition level ball. So if Mitch can stay on the floor for 35 minutes and nail an occasional 3-pt shot, if RJ can get his FT% over 75%, if Knox can get his FG% over 50% then we have something to talk about.

    – Mitch averaged 23 minutes.
    – RJ Shot 61% from the free throw line
    – Knox shot 35.9% from the field.

    I classify the objectives I listed as pipe dreams.

  26. I think in this time of great doom and gloom outside basketball, I want to look on the bright side here:

    How awesome is it that the biggest gripe we have so far is about a second round pick!!???? This is a huge improvement. You just know previous GMs would have handed out ridiculous contracts or traded away young players and picks for past their prime stars.

  27. Alan: Woke up to some of the Knicks Film School/Strickland guys speculating that Rose isn’t just going to call it a day here, and that these bargain signings are precursor to a Randle trade or some other larger deal. I’d still like to see if we can pry a PG away from New Orleans, or see if Utah still wants to keep Conley, or something else. I’d like a better starting PG than Payton to help the kids’ development; it’s just a question of who’s expendable on other teams and what the cost would be.

    It would need to be Randle, Frank and DSJ to Utah for Conley to make the trade work. And to what end? To make this team good this year and barren next? Conley’s an expiring contract. It doesn’t provide what the Knicks need. The Knicks don’t need cap space. They need players on the roster that make the garden look like an oasis, not a desert. These days the garden smells like a garbage dump.

  28. One thing that I would be happy to see is the Knicks signing Brandon Ingram with our remaining cap space. That would turn this offseason around. Ingram is good enough to make next season’s free agents look at this roster in a different light. He also fits nicely into this roster.

  29. But even if he is right, we didn’t make a lousy deal trading it. We got a pick in return that many people perceive as a very valuable draft.

    we did make a lousy deal trading it. two picks that were behind us (the 35 and the 45) yielded twice as much as we got. stop acting like picks in 2023 are special. they don’t hold extra value.

  30. rose is demonstrating that he is better than the previous regimes. that’s great and all but we’ve seen enough early signs to suggest that, barring some extreme learning on the job, he’s going to peak at not good enough.

    all I see here is that we finally have a PoBO capable of being successful in his pursuit of 40 wins and the 8 seed.

    it is really nice, though, that we aren’t handing out dumb contracts to make a splash. i give him credit for being patient, even though that’s the minimum expectation of a gm taking over a terrible team.

  31. Not sure I understand the view that picks in 2023 don’t hold extra value. If it is the double draft, then unless lots of mid first round guys go back to college to avoid slipping, there should be a number of additional first-round calibre players from HS in the pot. A guy who would otherwise have been picked 20th might be more like 30th, in which case high 2rps will be equivalent in value to low 1rps in a normal draft. If that’s right it is definitely a good year to have extra picks.

    I still wish we’d taken a photo at 23 and picked Quickley, if we were so high on him, at 33. But I don’t think the idea that picks in 2023 are worth more than average is flawed…

  32. Hubert: we did make a lousy deal trading it. two picks that were behind us (the 35 and the 45) yielded twice as much as we got. stop acting like picks in 2023 are special. they don’t hold extra value.

    And explain why we couldn’t have taken a PG like Theo Maledon, a defensive big like Xavier Tillman Sr., or another sharpshooter like Jordan Nwora. This wasn’t a top-heavy draft but there were other options.

    I guess the thought was that what will be Minnesota’s late 2nd round pick in 2023 in that draft is better than the Knicks high 2nd round pick? There’s no way I buy that. (With KAT, Malik and D’Angelo and Rubio in the fold they do not project to be a bad team).

  33. Knicks fans are so humiliated and sad that a no-atrocities offseason is getting praised. It’s a good (TM) offseason when you get a real building block, like a Shai Gilgeous-Alexander in some brilliant trade. Signing Payton for equal money and drafting a mildly intriguing #8 is not a good offseason, it’s mediocre at best.

  34. iserp: I like Payton and Noel at 5 million per year, but I worry that it is not of much value long-term. In Noel’s case, we would not even get early bird rights in case we wanted to keep him.

    Does that mean they cant be re-signed? I always find that confusing…

  35. Not sure I understand the view that picks in 2023 don’t hold extra value.

    you think Rose is out here playing 4-D chess while everyone else is playing checkers? how come no one else targeted these extra special picks? Leon Rose just showed up and knows something all the other GMs don’t know? If 2023 second rounders were so damn valuable, why would a smart team like Utah give away two of them just to dump Ed Davis? why did every other team that made a trade target two 2nd round picks in any year vs 1 pick in 2023?

    give me some evidence that anyone other than MSG is treating these picks like they’re special.

  36. Does that mean they cant be re-signed? I always find that confusing…

    It just means that without any kind of Bird rights, even early Bird, we have to use cap space or an exception to re-sign them next year. So if we don’t have enough space, or want to use our exceptions on other players, we can’t keep them.

  37. a non-bird free agent like noel can always be resigned with cap space. you can also resign them with a non bird exception up to 1.2x, ie $6m for noel. but you can’t go higher than that if you don’t have cap space or another exception.

  38. Hubert:
    rose is demonstrating that he is better than the previous regimes. that’s great and all but we’ve seen enough early signs to suggest that, barring some extreme learning on the job, he’s going to peak at not good enough.

    all I see here is that we finally have a PoBO capable of being successful in his pursuit of 40 wins and the 8 seed.

    it is really nice, though, that we aren’t handing out dumb contracts to make a splash. i give him credit for being patient, even though that’s the minimum expectation of a gm taking over a terrible team.

    Seems like a bit of an overreaction here, no offense.

  39. you fools are sitting here deconstructing the present value of the 39th pick in 2023 and alec burks’ pnr defense while worldwide wes is sitting at a tiny table in a virgin galactic spaceship with anthony davis

  40. not offended, Captain. I am thin slicing. three things that have stood out to me:

    1. the selection of a one-way player at 8.
    2. poor asset management, including roster slots (djphan has bailed this)
    3. the thought process surrounding the #33 pick.

    we should have an elite front office. that’s the one area we can spend unlimited funds on. those aren’t elite front office moves.

    guy could still get lucky. win a lottery. find a star obsessed with coming to NY. Rob Pelinka just won a chip and rose is probably as good as him.

  41. Hubert – not arguing Rose is some evil genius and I’ve already said I don’t agree with the move to trade the 33. But I’m genuinely curious – if there are added first-round level HS players in the 2023 draft, shouldn’t there be a knock-on to quality in the second round?

    Call it a quest for a silver lining…

  42. maybe, but the effect might be very muted. if high schoolers are expected to come out in 2023, agents might advise mediocre non-seniors to come out in 2022 (or even 2021) anticipating potential dilution. similarly, 2023 lower end prospects might stay in school an extra year. it’s hard to know how much would leak into round 2, and that’s only if 2023 actually turns out to be the twofer year.

  43. I think part of this trading the 2nd rounder business was also about there probably not being a g-league this year.

    I’m sure they could’ve picked a decent player, but there are only so many nba minutes since Thibs is trying to really look at a lot of young guys.

    Iggy and Jared Harper alone probably could have been 1st rounders in this draft, and I hope they get some quality minutes this year.

  44. I get all the criticism and worry about Rose & co. I would call the draft decisions “curious” or “questionable” (and I agree with english knick’s appraisal of what they should have done, and agree with Hubert that they may have skipped over better non-Kentucky/CAA players.) I would call the CAA/Kentucky pipeline “concerning”. And given our history of near league-worst management, starting from the suspicion that they are only “marginally more competent than prior regimes” is fair.

    All of us are traumatized as Knicks fans, and probably see things through the lens of our own defense mechanisms.

    But it is also fair to consider the magnitude of and preponderance of the evidence we have thus far. We know that every single player taken in the lottery comes with major question marks, except maybe Wiseman. The jury is out on the picks. The signings and non-signings are objectively prudent in that not a single head-scratcher occurred even by the standards of the most cynical poster. At this point in time, there’s far more cause for optimism for pessimism, objectively speaking. If the standard is Ujiri-level GMing, then yeah, we’re not there. But the degree of improvement is beyond doubt. So far, at least.

  45. Hubert:
    not offended, Captain. I am thin slicing. three things that have stood out to me:
    1. the selection of a one-way player at 8.
    2. poor asset management, including roster slots (djphan has bailed this)
    3. the thought process surrounding the #33 pick.
    we should have an elite front office. that’s the one area we can spend unlimited funds on. those aren’t elite front office moves.

    I wasn’t happy with the draft. It could have been good (not great) but it turned out meh. Now, both Toppin and Quickey need to pan out for me to be OK with the draft. For that, Toppin needs to be a legit starter and Quickley a rotation player/6th man for a competitive team. And I am not happy with free agency. The Knicks needed to do better with their point guard. I like Noel but not Alex Burks – IMO he’s a waste of money. We didn’t need a high volume chucker. There were/are much better wings out there, wings we could have signed. I’m holding on hope that we can use that cap space to sign or trade for a real, legit player but right now, meh. And it’s only Meh now because of Noel and tried to get a team option for a 2nd year.

  46. ptmilo:
    maybe, but the effect might be very muted.if high schoolers are expected to come out in 2023, agents might advise mediocre non-seniors to come out in 2022 (or even 2021) anticipating potential dilution.similarly, 2023 lower end prospects might stay in school an extra year.it’s hard to know how much would leak into round 2, and that’s only if 2023 actually turns out to be the twofer year.

    Three things:
    1) even if it’s only 5-10 additional players (i.e. not the implied 30) then that is a substantive difference in the value of draft position.
    2) This draft was widely known as a poor draft class. It is possible that 2023 would be a deeper group even without the double-draft situation
    3) having multiple second-rounders in the same draft makes it easier to trade up

  47. GoNYGoNYGo – Tanking forever: I wasn’t happy with the draft. It could have been good (not great) but it turned out meh. Now, both Toppin and Quickey need to pan out for me to be OK with the draft. For that, Toppin needs to be a legit starter and Quickley a rotation player/6th man for a competitive team.

    Fair, but you have to commit to the players you would have chosen as well…and acknowledge the moving up in the draft as a plus…

    GoNYGoNYGo – Tanking forever: And I am not happy with free agency. The Knicks needed to do better with their point guard. I like Noel but not Alex Burks – IMO he’s a waste of money. We didn’t need a high volume chucker. There were/are much better wings out there, wings we could have signed. I’m holding on hope that we can use that cap space to sign or trade for a real, legit player but right now, meh. And it’s only Meh now because of Noel and tried to get a team option for a 2nd year.

    I see every FA move as being a win, and the non-moves as well. Every player we signed either came with picks (Davis), is moveable for an asset before the deadline to a needy team either alone or in a package, or fills a need for this year at a low price with no future commitments.

    I would rather have drafted Hali and Terry and signed Wood, but beyond that, I can’t be anything than happy at where we are right now compared to where we would have been under any of the prior 5 FOs.

  48. Z-man:
    I get all the criticism and worry about Rose & co. I would call the draft decisions “curious” or “questionable” (and I agree with english knick’s appraisal of what they should have done, and agree with Hubert that they may have skipped over better non-Kentucky/CAA players.) I would call the CAA/Kentucky pipeline “concerning”. And given our history of near league-worst management, starting from the suspicion that they are only “marginally more competent than prior regimes” is fair.

    All of us are traumatized as Knicks fans, and probably see things through the lens of our own defense mechanisms.

    But it is also fair to consider the magnitude of and preponderance of the evidence we have thus far. We know that every single player taken in the lottery comes with major question marks, except maybe Wiseman. The jury is out on the picks. The signings and non-signings are objectively prudent in that not a single head-scratcher occurred even by the standards of the most cynical poster. At this point in time, there’s far more cause for optimism for pessimism, objectively speaking. If the standard is Ujiri-level GMing, then yeah, we’re not there. But the degree of improvement is beyond doubt. So far, at least.

    well said, Z-Man.

    I’m grading Rose against all the front office talent that we could have hired this year. that’s why i’m a little down.

    i mean, scott perry is still here. come on. we should be better in the front office.

  49. I’m pretty happy so far.

    We essentially traded the 27th pick and a second rounder to move up two spots to 25 and push the second rounder back to 2023. It seems pretty trivial to be upset about not having one more fringe NBA rookie in the team this year when the team all ready has a ton of young players.

    We got Noel, Davis, Elf, Burke’s and two second rounders for 20 million dollars. That’s less than what we paid last year for Portis and Taj.

    Team options would have been nice but the downside for team options is you have to overpay. Players do not like team options!

    We still have 25 million in cap space. That 25 million plus Randle gives us the chance to take back a lot of salary on a big time player of that presents itself.

    Rose is on a different time line than us fans. The immediate thrill of improving the roster is nice for us but seeing what FVV, Hayward, Gallo, etc…got paid…we might start regretting that after the initial high wore off. We’ve suffered through losing for awhile so I get people being frustrated. But rose is just getting started. What I’m seeing so far is that patience is a part of the strategy. Since draft day we’ve added 3 second round picks.

    We hired a good coach and a bunch of strong development assistants. Let them do their thing. If Mitch and RJ take the next step we’ll be fun to watch this year. Once fiz was gone and elf was healthy we were much more fun to watch last season.

    Patience!

  50. 1) even if it’s only 5-10 additional players (i.e. not the implied 30) then that is a substantive difference in the value of draft position

    don’t follow the implication of 30. most estimates of high schoolers who would enter the first double draft are much lower. i know a well known college coach who thinks it will be 5-15. there is also a reasonable chance 2023 isn’t the year.

  51. They needed to get Randle and Payton off the team. They’re both detestable players and together they’re even more detestable.

  52. They needed to get Randle and Payton off the team. They’re both detestable players and together they’re even more detestable

    satire

  53. Z-man:
    We may not be able to score, but we will be capable of throwing a lot of athletic length at other teams.

    Agreed. I spent a few minutes last night looking up the wingspan of guys on the roster who are known to play capable defense, and the length is ridiculous. And most of those guys have the athleticism and lateral quickness to compete. I’m talkin Mitch, Noel, RJ, Ntilikina, Quickley, Payton, Bullock, Davis…hell- even Obi has a 7’2″ wingspan and athleticism to work with and Knox has a 6’11” wingspan and gives effort. Even little Jared Harper has a 6’5″ wingspan! Thibs has gotta be super anxious to build this defense. Not that I expect a top 10 defense..but we will be close on that end. I trust Thibs’ basketball mind. But..with the truncated offseason, we may not see tangible results until around Feb- Mar..much like the Cowboys defense totally sucked ass for most of the season before showing improvement the last few games.

    My expectations are low for this team this season, but I can’t wait to see the youth actually get some real action. I definitely wanna see Iggy in the rotation. Thibs- unlike Fiz and Miller- is not coaching for his job, so he can afford to play the kids. I think our Knicks are gonna be fun to watch. That being said..now is the time to trade Randle. He’s not gonna accept a 6th man role, and Obi has to start up front. His game fits with RJ and Mitch so well. Maybe Perry should call up Charlotte and re-visit Randle and DSJ for Rozier and Monk or some other cap filler

  54. Z-man: Fair, but you have to commit to the players you would have chosen as well…and acknowledge the moving up in the draft as a plus…

    I don’t think there’s a commitment to 2nd rounders. If you mean commit to an NBA deal, are we sure there isn’t a g-league this year? I’m thinking there will be, even if it’s short and starts late.

    I see every FA move as being a win, and the non-moves as well. Every player we signed either came with picks (Davis), is moveable for an asset before the deadline to a needy team either alone or in a package, or fills a need for this year at a low price with no future commitments.

    We disagree. Someone PLEASE explain why we traded for the rights to Ante Tomi?? I get moving up to 23, and everything that followed (yes kudos on that wizardry).

    I would rather have drafted Hali and Terry and signed Wood, but beyond that, I can’t be anything than happy at where we are right now compared to where we would have been under any of the prior 5 FOs.

    If they had drafted Hali and Terry and signed Wood, you wouldn’t have heard complaints from me. But they didn’t. We disagree about being happy where we are.

  55. one thing to add to Z-Man’s post…

    i get that the jury is out on the picks, but it was the process that troubles me. i want to be one of the teams that looks at Obi Toppin and says “nice production but can’t play a lick of defense” and chooses a guy who plays both ways. that’s all.

  56. They needed to get Randle and Payton off the team. They’re both detestable players and together they’re even more detestable.

    Mitch with Payton on, Frank off: 17.6 PTS/36, 14.5 USG%, .741. TS%, +17 (521 MP)

    Mitch with Frank on, Payton off: 14.3 PTS/36, 12.5 USG%, .736 TS%, -53 (481 MP)

    Look, I know people like Frank, but we couldn’t afford to go into the season with someone who selfishly freezes out our best player at point guard!

  57. ***How awesome is it that the biggest gripe we have so far is about a second round pick!!????***

    Just to remind everybody, the Phil Jackson era started quietly with a dubious 2nd round pick trade. What starts as a drip can quickly turn into a raging flood…

  58. ***i know a well known college coach who thinks it will be 5-15. there is also a reasonable chance 2023 isn’t the year.***

    We all know you didn’t go to college, Dwight.

  59. I was pretty clear leading up to the draft and on draft night so I don’t have much more to say. My big board is posted. I didn’t like what we did at all. I wouldn’t have taken Toppin, I wound up not even including Quickley on my list of intriguing UDFAs, and there were multiple players I liked at 33.

    I’ll also say this: unlike a lot of other moves that are fair to judge at the time regardless of outcome (e.g. even if Joakim Noah played well, it would’ve been a bad idea to give him 4/$72M), when it comes to the draft there’s necessarily more of a wait-and-see element.

    I don’t think Toppin was such a bad choice that it reeks of bad process even if he turns out well, a la Ntilikina and Knox. He was 12th on my big board and we took him 8th. If he turns out to be good I can buy that the front office saw something I didn’t.

    Quickley…is a lot closer to “bad process” territory. Especially when you consider how heavily his school seems to have factored into the decision. Still though, he’s a good enough shooter that I can’t say it’s out of the question he winds up returning value at that slot. If he does, I don’t think it would be entirely fair to say the front office got lucky–they seem to have scouted him pretty heavily.

    As for 33, they’ll have a lot of egg on their face if there aren’t multiple good options available in 2023 with the Detroit pick. I’m not sure how much more there is to say about it until then.

  60. If what Berman is saying is true, it gives me less confidence that the FO knows what it’s doing:

    The Knicks entered free agency with a league-high $40 million in cap space and with heady visions. They wanted to be a major playoff threat in coach Tom Thibodeau’s first season and bring glamour back to the Garden – even if it might be empty for the 36-game home schedule.

    That is why they drafted a more ready-made forward in native New Yorker Obi Toppin, age 22, over Israeli project forward Deni Avdija, 19, when both surprisingly dropped to No. 8.

    Avdija, a playmaking forward, could be the next…Gordon Hayward. The Israeli had his fans in the Knicks organization.

    The Knicks acted like a title contender on Wednesday’s draft night when they wanted to keep open a roster spot for free agency and decided to hastily trade the 33rd pick in the draft – which most executives covet – for a 2023 second-round pick. They had little time to wheel as all their targets came off the board, including Duke center Vernon Carey Jr. at 32.

    And this is not even the worst part of the article!

    https://nypost.com/2020/11/22/knicks-free-agency-flop-means-tank-is-on-for-cade-cunningham/

    The dreamboat scenario for Rose’s squad was using much of their cap space to sign DJ Augustin to start at point guard and Gordon Hayward and Carmelo Anthony to plug in as the forwards.

  61. Totes McGoats as Totes McGoats: My expectations are low for this team this season, but I can’t wait to see the youth actually get some real action. I definitely wanna see Iggy in the rotation. Thibs- unlike Fiz and Miller- is not coaching for his job, so he can afford to play the kids.

    You know what, I hope that you’re right. If Thibs plays the kids, gets Iggy time, great. But…

    I think our Knicks are gonna be fun to watch.

    I don’t think Thibs will give it time. I think we’ll see loss after loss with players that have no future with the Knicks getting lots of playing time. Which is why…

    That being said..now is the time to trade Randle. He’s not gonna accept a 6th man role, and Obi has to start up front. His game fits with RJ and Mitch so well. Maybe Perry should call up Charlotte and re-visit Randle and DSJ for Rozier and Monk or some other cap filler

    Randle is just one example. Now we have Burks and Elfrid as nothing more than place holders who will take minutes from Iggy and Quickley. But a trade for Rozier and Monk is a decent plan. I like Rozier and we can cut ties with Monk after the season. I think we can do better than that but it works.

  62. marechal: If what Berman is saying is true, it gives me less confidence that the FO knows what it’s doing

    That’s what it smelled like to me. Almost everyone had Avdija ahead of Toppin. If we were going for the “rebuild with kids” approach, if we didn’t take a top PG, he was the right next choice. But I can’t hate on Toppin. That’s why I buy Berman’s story. As for chaos at the end, it sure looked like they bailed.

  63. Some front office tea leaf reading from Berman includes these details/observations:

    * Plan A was to build a playoff contender for this year. That was part of the reasoning for trading away the 33rd pick: Thibs doesn’t play rookies much and they may have wanted to leave roster spots open for free agents. (Not Great, Bob!)

    * The idea was to sign Hayward and Melo to bolster the forwards, and Augustin at PG. But we wouldn’t go more than two years for Hayward, who really wanted to go to Indiana and then got an offer he couldn’t refuse from Charlotte. We would have had to outbid Milwaukee for Augustin.

    * We would have offered FVV the same contract Toronto gave him “in a heartbeat,” but he never wanted to come here.

    * Basically, we’re tanking now, but Berman thinks Anthony and others saved us from ourselves. So that’s also not great.

  64. The bad news is that we still haven’t made much progress. The team as currently constructed will still probably not be very attractive to top free agents in 2021.

    The good news is that we are showing restraint. The pieces we added on short term contracts this year (at least Payton and Noel) were done at attractive prices instead of at a premium.

    I think we are kind of dependent on a combination of young players taking a step forward and better coaching to make us more competitive than we look on paper now and that attracting some interest next year.

  65. so the plan was to pick thibs as your coach and plan to make the playoffs by making hayward sign a two year deal after he opted out of 30mm…. or convincing fvv to leave toronto at 25+mm aav…. and bringing back melo….. or possibly looking into trading for russell westbrook…..

    meanwhile you have a treasure trove of draft picks that you refuse to use because you picked a coach that’s not going to play the people you pick anyway since you have this foolproof plan to make the playoffs….

    there’s this moment with every new regime with the knicks where you realize that these dudes have no idea wtf they are doin…. and i realize some folks are not there yet but let’s just say i took the offramp a long while ago and i got a 6 pack and some pizza waitin for you guys whenever you are ready…..

  66. Right but they didn’t “show restraint” on purpose; they had a dumb af plan (*) that they couldn’t execute because no one wants to play here. Any resemblance between this and the way a smart fo would have gone about things is a complete accident. Which is, for example, why when the “plan” didn’t work, they were left to trade 33 and resign Elfrid F Payton.

    (*) Not only did they have a dumb af plan, but somehow the dumb af plan wound up being leaked, which means the fo is still, as it will always be, a mismatched amalgam of agendas and fiefdoms and backstabbings.

  67. Lots of minor NBA signings this morning (including Harry Giles to Portland), but this is the big news:

    @wojespn
    Utah Jazz All-Star guard Donovan Mitchell has agreed to a five-year, $195M designated rookie max extension, his agents Ty Sullivan and Austin Brown of @caa_sports tell ESPN. Story soon.

  68. Thibodeau considered his former Minnesota PG, Jeff Teague, as a possibility but he wasn’t too high on the list and they let him sign with Boston for one year.

    Ultimately, the staff didn’t think it was too much of an upgrade over CAA-controlled Elfrid Payton, their starting point guard in 2019-20, who inked a new one-year, $5 million deal.

    Yes, Perry still is in love with Payton, whom he drafted in Orlando.

    Honestly, this has gone beyond mere incompetence and is now simply pathetic.

  69. djphan: there’s this moment with every new regime with the knicks where you realize that these dudes have no idea wtf they are doin…. and i realize some folks are not there yet but let’s just say i took the offramp a long while ago and i got a 6 pack and some pizza waitin for you guys whenever you are ready…..

    i’ll bring mushrooms. how far are you from Camp Ntilikina?

  70. Like, I obviously won’t be surprised if this group turns out to suck. It’s the default expectation. However that article is pretty weird. Holding firm on two years for Hayward is not consistent with a going all out for 2020-2021 approach. Nor is not topping the Suns substantial but beatable Chris Paul offer.

    I dunno, it does us no good to hold moves they didn’t make against them. Payton, Burks, and Noel’s deals all return value objectively, and the general approach seems to be “put the young core in a decent position to succeed without overpaying in terms of dollars and ping pong balls to do so.” That’s…eminently sensible?

  71. i don’t know how to react to that berman article.

    on the one hand, it’s unsourced and could be complete bullshit.

    on the other hand, holy shit does it make sense. especially taking obi toppin bc he was the only player in the lottery who Thibs would play.

    if berman is right, i was wrong to suggest rose is any better than mills and jackson.

  72. thenoblefacehumper: I dunno, it does us no good to hold moves they didn’t make against them. Payton, Burks, and Noel’s deals all return value objectively, and the general approach seems to be “put the young core in a decent position to succeed without overpaying in terms of dollars and ping pong balls to do so.” That’s…eminently sensible?

      

    Except, as the article makes crystal clear, that isn’t the “general approach” or anything close.

  73. Hubert:
    i don’t know how to react to that berman article.

    on the one hand, it’s unsourced and could be complete bullshit.

    on the other hand, holy shit does it make sense. especially taking obi toppin bc he was the only player in the lottery who Thibs would play.

    if berman is right, i was wrong to suggest rose is any better than mills and jackson.

    The source is probably Scott Perry and/or Tom Thibodeau (with the slight possibility of Steve Mills), or a combination thereof. I guess it’s possible that it’s Rose himself telling Dolan, “See, Jim, we DID have a plan to make the playoffs.”

    It rings entirely true, and it’s depressing on every conceivable level. They don’t have a clue. It wouldn’t shock me if Thibs didn’t make it through the year. I put it at less than 50/50 he makes it through next year.

  74. Except, as the article makes crystal clear, that isn’t the “general approach” or anything close.

    And as I made crystal clear, I am making inferences based on things that have actually occurred, not the article. The things that have actually occurred are consistent with that approach. When things occur that are not, I will change my mind accordingly.

  75. I mean I get having Knicks ptsd but it feels like a stretch to knock the FO for bad moves they didn’t actually make but were only rumored to want to make. How do we know what Berman is saying is even accurate?

  76. swiftandabundant:
    I mean I get having Knicks ptsd but it feels like a stretch to knock the FO for bad moves they didn’t actually make but were only rumored to want to make. How do we know what Berman is saying is even accurate?

    We’ll keep the pizza warm and the beer cold.

    It’s actually worse. Not only did they have a stupid af plan; they thought it would reflect well upon them if the newspapers got wind of their plan and attributed it to them.

  77. But the fact still remains that the Knicks put a pretty low ceiling on those free agents. They missed out on them because other, dumber teams were willing to pay them more than they are worth (do you guys even remember the Portis signing?? And that was a 1 1 not the massive deal Hayward got.)

    And be honest: do you really think Hayward will ever play a full season again?

    I would’ve preferred Z-Man’s Hali/Wood platter to the Obi one, but a. They might not be done yet and b. The Obi/Quickley one isn’t bad as it prioritizes stats and shooting. Don’t we like that?

  78. The article absolutely could be Perry talking shit about the new boss. We’ll see how much longer he survives.

    Meanwhile, we re-signed Theo Pinsom to a 2-way deal. So if Harper accepts a contract to stay, both of
    Those spots are taken up for now.

  79. Or he’s just making it up?

    We have 25 million in cap space saved for a rainy day. When have the Knicks ever saved cap space? With the extra picks we have, randle’s expiring contract and our cap space we could easily take on a superstar that wants out of their current situation at any time this season and that almost always happens. Or we can absorb a bad contract for another pick. Rose just started his job. We didn’t overpay for dudes like Haywood. You can say we missed out but fact is we didn’t make counter offers that were bigger than what these dudes got which shows intelligence.

    I want to get rid of Randle too eventually but toppin starting out behind him in the bench for half a season while thibs gets Randle to up his value isn’t the worst plan. Randle could be tradeable by the deadlkne

  80. Pretty happy we re-signed Theo to a two-way, and not just because I’m a former Tar Heel. Always thought he was a solid prospect who never really got a chance to show his stuff. We’ll see if he does that for the Knicks this season.

  81. i’ll bring mushrooms. how far are you from Camp Ntilikina?

    we’re right where we burned down camp mills…. just make a left at the big crowd at lake knox….

  82. I don’t think it was a bad idea to try to sign a player like Hayward, FVV, Gallo and any others they had on their list that would have moved the team forward. Everyone knows I think the way to attract the tier 1 free agents is by being good enough to generate interest. That way the free agent thinks by adding himself, he can take the team to the next level.

    The bad part of the plan was expecting any of those guys to want to come to NY. Some will simply get better offers than make sense for us and others will want no part of being on a bad team. That’s the mistake we keep making over and over again.

    That’s why we are still locked in lottery hell.

    You have to stop worrying about maximizing your draft position every single year (sometimes it makes sense for a single year) and start trying to get better via a combination of draft picks, trades (that could include picks), and free agency. It may be as simple as adding another 2 guys guy like Noel and Payton on attractive contracts. It could be one of our draft picks this year. It could be developing RJ, Frank, Knox or Robinson and getting an upside surprise. It could a deal that pops up later his year. But the idea is to try to get better, manage cap space well, give out fair contracts to decent players and then when the big fish it out there, we have a chance to hook him. We are not there yet unless one of the kids breaks out and Thibs does a great job .

  83. I want to get rid of Randle too eventually but toppin starting out behind him in the bench for half a season while thibs gets Randle to up his value isn’t the worst plan. Randle could be tradeable by the deadlkne

    That’s exactly what I want to do,

    Maybe we’ll have a little better spacing this year and Thibs can do a better job maximizing Randle. If we sell on him now, we are selling at the bottom. He’s not a bad player. He’s just a bad fit on NY (at least last year). We may get a good player for him if we wait and bring his value back up.

  84. My beef with saying they couldn’t execute their absurd plan is that it completely ignored all the nuances of why they weren’t able to execute it. If they weren’t willing to super overpay for hayward, augustin and Melo then they didn’t fail to execute the plan. It just wasn’t a plan they were that married too bc they’re valuing flexibility going forward over locking in to a low seed playoff team now.

    Of course all things equal money wise players like Melo and augustin are going to go to playoff teams. Augustin signed with the bucks for 3 years/7 million per year. Did you want us to go higher than that for DJ freakin’ augustin?

    Hayward got a massive contract from the hornets. I liked the idea of getting him for the right price but I would be pissed if we have him what Charlotte just did.

    We’re being patient and smart. It’s exactly what a team in our position should do. Reminder that we have 5 first round picks and 7 second round picks over the next 3 years.

    Just sit back and let our development coaches do their thing for a bit.

  85. Well, they didn’t do those things so if true, it’s nice that they didn’t try it at all costs. It sounds like a moronic plan but if we assume that a 37 win team is a major threat to make the playoffs in the east maybe it’s not.

    I thunk it’s dumb as hell to be shooting for that but Dolan hired these guys and probably told them that’s what he wanted. So we can assume the plan is to build a team that consistently wins 33-38 games?

  86. Well, here’s to hoping the Berman article is garbage. If not, that was a dumb plan to start with, then incredibly poorly executed, to boot.

    What has been done is okay, overall. If they can move out Randle, and maybe DSJ, in some sort of non-stupid trade, even better. The nepotism stuff does bear watching, but the early returns for Rose so far are way better than Brodie was with the Mets, so my BVWPTSD is fading a bit.
    :-)

  87. Not using a high 2nd round pick because you needed to keep a roster spot open on a team with no talent at all is pretty dumb, sorry.

  88. I’m pretty happy overall. A lot of dumb money went out this weekend and the Knicks for once weren’t a part of it. It feels like a damned if you do, damned if you don’t situation. Rebuilding requires a lot patience and/or luck as evidenced by what Detroit and Charlotte did. In general I’m not sure how this isn’t a bottom-five team which should bode well for next year’s draft. But hopefully the roster construction and coaching is in a place where RJ and Obi will be set up to succeed. The Knicks have talented young prospects, cap space, and plenty of future picks (Detroit is going to be horrible and they have Detroit’s picks in both 2021 and 2023, on top of their own picks and the Mavs’ picks). Let’s see what this core gives us, and may we continue to have this amount of patience and restraint going forward.

  89. Berman’s source was always Steve Mills, and he was always used to fluff management.

    The outcome, thus far, has been good. If the process was wrong, that would be too bad, and, in time, the product will fail. But I wouldn’t take Berman’s word for it.

  90. By now, the psyches of Knicks fans are not dissimilar to those of long abused children whose mom has just brought home another new husband. We lie awake in mute terror, cowering under the bedclothes, listening intently for any telltale sounds (the clatter of an empty whiskey bottle on the floor… the crash of an overturned chair… the heavy, unsteady footsteps in the hall) signifying that Stepfather No. 4 will be just like all the others.

    That Berman piece was the whiskey bottle clattering to the floor.

    I can’t shake the feeling of dread that we’re about to relive the horror of NYK administrations past. I really, really want this story to have a happy ending this time. So I look for signs of hope wherever I can. The draft? Not a total disaster but, at best, a mixed bag (of course the same could be said of the Knox-Mitch draft of ’18 so not many brownie points for the new regime there) Free agency? The initial optimism brought on by the new regime’s apparent restraint has since been squelched by reports that it was eager to overpay for middling talent yet again, only to be saved by greater fools elsewhere.

    Which leaves us with but one dim ray of hope: the Davis trade. On its face, a rather modest haul – an overpaid vet + 2 second rounders (albeit in the already legendary class of ’23) What makes the deal potentially significant is that it is the first time in seemingly forever that a Knicks FO has rented out cap space for picks – something that much smarter posters than I have been urging the team to do for a looong time. A harbinger of similar moves to come? Dare to dream, dare to dream. Perhaps this indeed marks the start of a whole new way of doing business at 2 Penn Plaza; the first baby steps of a turnaround that will someday earn himself a statue, Rose as Lady Liberty in a Tina Charles jersey, atop a plinth inscribed with Give us your washed up, your sore, your toxic assets you’re yearning to cut free

    Shit. That’s the best I got.

  91. Assuming Mitch still has foul problems while Thibs is coach? At least a coin flip, if not more. If Mitch doesn’t get into as much foul trouble, my prediction he’ll nominally start and they’ll roughly split minutes at center

  92. We will never know what the plan was for filling out the roster, but if you put your ear to the railroad tracks, you will see $25 million remaining in cap space and 9 players with expiring contracts, with a $4 million guarantee for Randle. The only players probably guaranteed for 2021-22 are Obi, Quickley, RJ, Knox, and Mitch.

    Looks to me that cap space and flexibility were, once again, the priority after their offers to free agents were unsuccessful.

    It’s deja vu all over again.

  93. I cannot for the life of me understand why Noel keeps getting strung along on short-term deals. Maybe a player-side decision — I can’t tell. The absence of a friendly team option makes me think it might be yet another bet on his own future. I would gladly have thrown a 4-year, $40M deal at him, with declining salary, given how much cap space is there for vets. He’s only 26. But I guess it’s better to be happy about the deal than to watch him, like Harry Giles, go to another team for a pittance.

    Get ready to see some dunks. He took a whopping 44% of his shots as dunks last year, just under DeAndre Jordan’s career average. For comparison, Tyson Chandler’s career high was 43%. You’re going to see a lot of efficient, if limited, possessions from our frontcourt.

  94. Sounds like the Lakers want to move some salary to improve their offer to Marc Gasol.

    Show us what you’re made of Leon.

  95. Stein:

    The Lakers, league sources say, have explored trading away JaVale McGee to create more financial flexibility to make a more competitive financial offer to Marc Gasol

    Next pick the Lakers can trade is their 2023 2nd. At this rate, the Knicks may just own that entire round of that draft.

  96. Yep. Stupid plan, awful execution.

    There weren’t any real tier-1 or tier-2 (AD doesn’t count) available. But my frustration, above all, is that I wanted a tier-3 player. I knew we would need to overpay, but we could’ve out-bid lots of teams for those “legit starter” players. We tried Randle last year and it was a good idea with a bad player. It comes down to the right fit and spending for tier market value.

    Here’s a list of (IMO) tier-3 contracts we should have looked at, what they got, what we should have bid:

    These were my top tier-3 candidates:
    Gallinari 3yr/$61.5M (4/$90)
    VanVleet 4yr/$85.5M (4/$100)
    Bogdanovic 4yr/$72M (4/$90)
    J.Harris 4yr/$75M (4/$90)

    These are lower level tier-3 players:
    Beasley 4 yr/$60M (4/$75)
    Wood 3 yr/$41M (4/$60)
    Mook 4 yr/$64M (4/$75)

    So what is market value?
    Tier-1 (superstar/perennial all-star): 4 yrs @ Max
    Tier-2 (Likely all-star): 4 yrs @ $25-Max / yr
    Tier-3 (Solid starter): 3-4 yrs @ $15-25M / yr
    Tier-4 (Top bench/starter) : 1-2 yrs @ $5-15M / yr
    Tier-5 (End of bench): 1-2 yrs @ Min-$5M / yr
    Tier-6 (G-League/DNP): 1 yr @ Min

    I doubt too many of you would agree with my table but that’s what market is and the Knicks have to likely pay premium at those tiers for several reasons. 1) They suck 2) Dolan 3) NY State taxes

  97. FWIW, another NYK beat writer I know was pretty dismissive of the Berman piece, saying it “seems like myopia layered over some reporting.”

  98. TheSteinLine
    The Knicks have emerged as a potential trade partner for the Lakers in a JaVale McGee deal, league sources say, as LA explores its various options

    If talks progress, New York would surely require at least one additional asset from the Lakers to take McGee into salary-cap space

    Other than a second way down the road, or maybe a first round pick swap, what does LA even have to offer? Is Talen Horton-Tucker anything of substance?

  99. We’re apparently talking with the Lakers about taking JaVale off their hands (they’re trying to get more money to sign Gasol)

  100. frank mason is already 26 and he’s small but i think he’s probably an nba player. he obliterated the g league last year.

  101. The nice thing about not blowing all of your cap space for the sake of doing so is a lot of salary dump situations arise unexpectedly during both the offseason and the season

  102. When your boss orders you to grab a star at all costs You grab him on the 1st day of FAgency.

    Leaking info of possible imaginery plans can easily be part of a plan/policy.

  103. If they really want Gasol, I bet you could extract both Tucker and that 2023 second. Then you play Javale 10-15 minutes a game and try to flip him at deadline (or waive him if there’s roster crunch).

  104. The Lakers have virtually no draft picks left to trade until 2025.
    I can’t see how they sweeten any deal.
    Why would we want Horton-Tucker?

  105. Our very own WHG signed a vet min deal with the Pels. Really strange that no one has signed him to a longer term deal despite what I assume is still nonexistent defense.

  106. Being furious about trading Willy for two second round picks is probably the thing I’ve been most aggressively wrong about in hindsight

  107. Being furious about trading Willy for two second round picks is probably the thing I’ve been most aggressively wrong about in hindsight

    Yeah, Perry did many other stupid things, but he got actual value for a guy who, it turns out, isn’t much valued by the rest of the league anymore.

    Remember when we were all upset that Kanter was playing ahead of Willy?

  108. I guess they could trade for the 2025 1st rounder and then turn that around into a 2021 or 2022 1st rounder with another club. It doesn’t matter when the asset is. It just shouldn’t be a protected draft pick.

  109. if utah only got zhaire smith in the tony bradley trade, what is the other 2023 second they had to give us to take ed davis?

    edit: forget it, i see this is detroit retrading bradley to philly

  110. Silky Johnson, Fleet Admiral of the Tank Armada:
    Our very own WHG signed a vet min deal with the Pels. Really strange that no one has signed him to a longer term deal despite what I assume is still nonexistent defense.

    Wild ass speculation alert that could easily be wrong!

    I think there are things we don’t know about Willy that have held back his progress and minutes and that were part of the reason he was traded away from NY.

  111. yea we’re probably one of the only teams with cap space so trying to do these types of deals should be a no-brainer and one of the encouraging things is that they seem to realize that…..

    a 2025 minimally protected 1st rd pick should be ok…. a 2023 2nd rd’er from the lakers …. even in the ascendant draft of 2023…. is likely to be really dogshit regardless…. 2025 with it being likely the tail end of this laker iteration should be the one to chase….

  112. thenoblefacehumper:
    Being furious about trading Willy for two second round picks is probably the thing I’ve been most aggressively wrong about in hindsight

    Yeah, I’m there too. But I doubt that the MSG braintrust actually knew that the market for traditional bigs was collapsing, that contracts like Capela’s and Drummond’s would be huge overpays before they were even halfway through. It would seem more coincidental than anything.

  113. I cannot for the life of me understand why Noel keeps getting strung along on short-term deals. Maybe a player-side decision — I can’t tell. The absence of a friendly team option makes me think it might be yet another bet on his own future. I would gladly have thrown a 4-year, $40M deal at him,

    If you want an honest answer, my guess is that you are overvaluing him.

    It’s kind of like the Robinson, Chandler and other debates people have had in the past.

    To get the big bucks as a C, you have to either be a game changing defender (like Gobert) or bring more diversity on offense while remaining efficient.

  114. If we took McGee for a 2nd round pick or something else (does LA even have a pick we might want), would we release him or keep him? We have Mitch and Nerlens. We don’t need a McGee caliber player riding the pine and we have to make sure Mitch is getting his minutes. We don’t need a repeat of Willy, Noah, Kanter, and O’Quinn all pissed off about minutes and we don’t need Mitch on the bench.

  115. You should definitely hold on to Javale if traded for (or if flip him immediately if there’s interest). Here’s the Knicks roster right now:

    knicks roster:
    Guards: Payton, Frank, DSJr, Harper (2 way) , Burks, RJ, Theo (2 way), Quickley, Frank
    SF: RJ, Bullock, Knox, Theo, Iggy
    PF: Obi, Randle, Knox, Davis
    C: Mitch, Nerlens, Davis
    Total players: 15 (with two-way) 13 without

    Javale can slot into the third center role and give a solid 5-10 minutes a night or step up due to injury. If he plays well he can also be flipped to a contender. There’s no reason not to hold onto him since we have two roster slots open, unless there’s a center who’s an actual prospect that we can grab.

    Edited to reflect Davis–thanks Early Bird!

  116. Silky Johnson, Fleet Admiral of the Tank Armada:
    You should definitely hold on to Javale if traded for. Here’s the Knicks roster right now:

    knicks roster:
    Guards: Payton, Frank, DSJr, Harper (2 way) , Burks, RJ, Theo (2 way), Quickley, Frank
    SF: RJ, Bullock, Knox, Theo (2 way) Iggy
    PF: Obi, Randle, Knox
    C: Mitch, Nerlens, ??
    Total players: 15 (with two-way) 13 without

    Javale can slot into the third center role and give a solid 5-10 minutes a night or step up due to injury. If he plays well he can also be flipped. There’s no reason not to hold onto him since we have two roster slots open, unless there’s a center who’s an actual prospect that we can grab.

    You forgot Davis who is also a C and likely won’t throw a fit riding the pine

  117. ***JaVale McGee possibly coming to knicks. Lakers looking to dump him for Gasol.***

    You mean there’s still hope of coming out of this with a maxed-out Kyle Kuzma on our hands??

  118. Totally forgot about Davis–that changes things slightly, since we should be looking to grab other guys off the waiver wire, UDFAs, etc and Javale would put us at 15 roster spots sans two ways. So maybe waiving Javale wouldn’t be a terrible idea or, better yet, waiving Davis. Depends on what’s out there, which Rose & co. know better than we do.

  119. Between Randle (ugh)/Obi/Mitch/Nerlens I don’t think Davis or JaVale will see minutes and think it’s better than 50/50 they’re both waived (assuming we wind up with JaVale).

    I genuinely have no clue what the starting lineup/rotation will be as of right now. I’m not even sure what I’d go with. This seems most sensible to me as of now:

    Payton/DSJ/Frank

    Bullock/Burks/RJ/Quickley/Frank

    RJ/Burks/Knox/Bullock/Iggy

    Obi/Randle/Knox/Iggy

    Mitch/Nerlens/Randle

    I’d like to see Pinson get serious burn at some point, always liked him as a prospect. Also happy to see what Harper can do, I don’t exactly foresee any of our PG options blowing us away.

    Anyway I’d probably waive Davis and JaVale if they couldn’t be flipped immediately and use the roster spots on flyers. It’s pretty hard to see either of them getting flipped for an asset. Even if they somehow were, it would likely be such a minor asset you could argue the roster spot is worth more.

  120. I honestly wouldn’t press my luck with McGee if we’ve already gotten an asset for him. He’s matured a bit, but I can’t imagine him being a happy camper going from a championship team to having to fight for playing time behind Mitch and Noel. Accept the sweetener and send him on his way.

  121. I agree with the general idea that we need to put shooting around RJ/Obi/Mitch…but you can’t exactly “surround” 3 players on a basketball court with shooting, you know, mathematically speaking.

    If that’s going to be a coherent core, at least 2 of them are probably going to need to learn to shoot the damn ball themselves.

  122. thenoblefacehumper: Payton/DSJ/Frank

    Bullock/Burks/RJ/Quickley/Frank

    RJ/Burks/Knox/Bullock/Iggy

    Obi/Randle/Knox/Iggy

    Mitch/Nerlens/Randle

    I have Burks ahead of Bullock and Frank ahead of DSJr, at least until DSJR & Bullock return to form.

    I’d also like to see Quickley grab a few minutes with Frank on the floor. Knowing Thibs, that won’t happen

    I can see Thibs benching Obi & RJ too

  123. GoNy, I don’t see the logic in your “get a tier 3 FA” plan. Every single player you targeted would have required paying them at the top end of the range or above, and would not have fit in with our win curve.

    E, we get that you have an axe to grind with Perry, but at some point, the “we suck as long as we still have Perry” mantra gets old. It’s so clear that Rose is calling the shots.

    The #33 pick debate has pretty much run its course. I on’t see any minds being changed, and no one thinks it was a “smart” move…it’s just about where it falls between “curious but harmless” and “ominously dumb” that it falls. Personally I’m much closer to the “curious but harmless” end of the spectrum, but see the other side’s points pretty clearly.

    Nearly everyone is in agreement that we wouldn’t have drafted Obi at #8…or Quickley at #23. Most of us would have taken Hali, Vassell or Kira. That said, most seem to agree that Obi is a more sensible pick than Knox or Ntilikina were based on stats.

    Nearly everyone is in agreement that the Knicks did not make a bad-value signing yet. Some would have preferred a more aggressive approach to free agency,. but most are fine with, or even elated by, the outcome compared to the fears of overpaying for non-superstar players.

    Most of us are still worried about overreach in a trade for an aging superstar or faux star, with Westbrook being the main concern.

    Even though the debates are spirited, most of us probably aren’t that far apart in how we feel about where the team is compared to actual expectations. Where we differ is in what was done compared to what we think should have been done.

  124. I genuinely have no clue what the starting lineup/rotation will be as of right now. I’m not even sure what I’d go with. This seems most sensible to me as of now:

    To me, a lot depends on how ready and soon Toppin is to play. He was drafted to eventually be the stretch PF playing alongside Mitch. He’s an older stronger more NBA ready player than we typically draft, but that doesn’t mean he’s ready replace a 19m player like Randle in the starting lineup right away.

    If we start Mitch, Randle, Payton, RJ, and whoever, we are right back where we started last year with the spacing issues that drove me nuts and imo made several of our players underperform their ability.

    If by some miracle Toppin is so ready he starts and stretches the floor early in the season, that eases the problem a bit. But other than that we still have the issue that plagued us last year even if we put a shooter at SF, unless RJ also comes out guns a blazing.

  125. Alan:
    I honestly wouldn’t press my luck with McGee if we’ve already gotten an asset for him. He’s matured a bit, but I can’t imagine him being a happy camper going from a championship team to having to fight for playing time behind Mitch and Noel. Accept the sweetener and send him on his way.

    I think that given what the Lakers can use as sweetener, it’s a legit question to ask whether you want to throw away $4 mill in cap space or whether it’s better to wait for a better salary dump that results in a player we can flip or use. But if we do it, it makes sense to waive him.

  126. RJ shot .320 from 3PT last year. That’s bad, but it’s not hopelessly bad. If he can get it up to like .350 this year and also get the FT% up around .750 that would be a really encouraging development.

    Sometimes the “he’ll be good if he learns to shoot” guys actually DO learn to shoot. Come on, RJ!

  127. Nearly everyone is in agreement that we wouldn’t have drafted Obi at #8…or Quickley at #23. Most of us would have taken Hali, Vassell or Kira. That said, most seem to agree that Obi is a more sensible pick than Knox or Ntilikina were based on stats.

    Nearly everyone is in agreement that the Knicks did not make a bad-value signing yet. Some would have preferred a more aggressive approach to free agency,. but most are fine with, or even elated by, the outcome compared to the fears of overpaying for non-superstar players.

    Most of us are still worried about overreach in a trade for an aging superstar or faux star, with Westbrook being the main concern.

    Yeah I think this sums up the hive mind pretty well. So far there is no MY GOD WHATTHEFUCK NOOOOOOO kind of moment that has happened yet. I’ll take it.

  128. If the offer from the Lakers is a 2023 2nd round pick that is likely to be in the 50s, we can probably find better ways to use our remaining cap space. That pick is very very low value. And then we either waive JaVale or he stays and takes minutes away from Mitch and Noel. I need more from LA.

  129. JK47:
    RJ shot .320 from 3PT last year. That’s bad, but it’s not hopelessly bad. If he can get it up to like .350 this year and also get the FT% up around .750 that would be a really encouraging development.

    Sometimes the “he’ll be good if he learns to shoot” guys actually DO learn to shoot. Come on, RJ!

    I totally agree with that.

    I’m still optimistic about RJ. Of course some of that is related to your expectations. I think he can become a solid #2 option with good but not great efficiency, adequate or better defense, good playmaking, and no fear of the big game and big shot. If you are expecting a franchise player, that’s probably a rose colored glasses view. But you don’t have to be a franchise player to be a key piece on a championship team. He’s a kid. We have to give him time.

  130. Deeefense: If we start Mitch, Randle, Payton, RJ, and whoever, we are right back where we started last year with the spacing issues that drove me nuts and imo made several of our players underperform their ability.

    Unless RJ has improved significantly, we probably should consider benching him. Playing with Frank and Toppin will alleviate the floor spacing issues a little.

    1st unit:
    Payton
    Bullock
    Burks
    Randle
    Mitch

    2nd unit:
    Frank
    Bullock/Burks/Quickley
    RJ
    Toppin
    Noel

  131. TheOakmanCometh:
    If the offer from the Lakers is a 2023 2nd round pick that is likely to be in the 50s, we can probably find better ways to use our remaining cap space. That pick is very very low value. And then we either waive JaVale or he stays and takes minutes away from Mitch and Noel. I need more from LA.

    We’re still $10 million below the minimum, so I’m not too worried about it. But I do think we can pry more than a 2nd rounder from them.

    Plus, McGee isn’t terrible and I wouldn’t write off the possibility of immediately flipping him to a contender.

  132. I can’t bring myself to be excited about this team until Julius Randle is gone. I just can’t see their being a cohesive offense or defense when we have a $19M washing machine camped in the paint.

  133. The Glass Half Rebuilt:
    I can’t bring myself to be excited about this team until Julius Randle is gone. I just can’t see their being a cohesive offense or defense when we have a $19M washing machine camped in the paint.

    Bingo. I detest him. Probably an overreaction, but that’s sports.

  134. The Berman story sounds like the sort of thing someone might have told James Dolan when he asked how are we going to be competitive this year. “Well, we’re going to try and sign such and such players and that will make us competitive”. Then you go ahead and execute your preferred strategy and say “well those guys just weren’t available and Gordon Hayward had a godfather offer, so we did plan B”; even though it was your expectation and plan to do B anyway unless some miracle happened in the free agent market. Then someone can say to Berman, that’s what we wanted to do even though actual management had no expectation of actually doing it.

  135. However, Berman is probably tight they were in a time crunch when other teams liked the players they liked in the second round.

  136. Hollinger likes the Knicks offf season and gives them Kudos for patience. He thinks all three free agent contractors they signed will probably have trade value (Burks, Payton and Noel). He suggests the Knicks could take on Prince’s contract from the Nets in exchange for picks, but also expects that other salary dump deals could come in season. He concludes by saying:

    That might not be the shiny, max free-agent contract Knicks fans hoped for, but it’s the right way to play their hand at this moment, and a marked departure from previous regimes in New York.

  137. When Rose was hired, I feared that he would lean toward hiring people that he “feels comfortable with.” Which sounds reasonable on its face, but ends up looking little different than cronyism. And based on his moves so far, we have no reason to think he’ll keep defaulting to guys in his inner circle.

    He interviewed a bunch of head coaching candidates before choosing Thibodeau — who just happened to be his buddy and CAA connection. What a coincidence!

    He hired assistant coaches Johnnie Bryant, Mike Woodson, and Kenny Payne — who all happen to be CAA clients.

    He drafted Toppin, a poor fit with Mitch — who just happens to be repped by his son. What a coincidence!

    He drafted Quickley 30 spots higher than anticipated — who just happens to have played under Kenny Payne. What a coincidence!

    All reports are that he wanted to bring Melo back, which would have been an unbelievably bad fit for this team and makes no sense from a basketball perspective. But of course, Melo is his former client. What a coincidence!

    Each of these moves is not awful in a vacuum (except the alleged Melo love). But taken together, they clearly show that Rose is anything but objective. It’s the same as Phil bringing in his boys Fisher and Rambis and throwing $72 mil at Noah because Noah came to North Dakota to kiss his ring.

    I don’t trust Rose at all. His bias is going to bite us in the ass.

  138. Rivers for 3 years and $10m is a reasonable deal but now the knicks have like 6 pgs on the roster and not one starting-caliber.

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