198 thoughts to “What Did Kobe Really Say To Porzingis?”

  1. Someone posted this on the last thread but i think we should target conely free agency or trade for a pg. We need a guard who can run the pick and roll, i think if we had a top 12 or top 15 pg we would be a 45-50 win team right now. Then it would be up to how quickly the Zinger made the leap for us to become a contender. I also think we need that kind of guard for Zinger’s development, he needs to learn how to play the pick and roll/pop cause it will get him easy opportunities on o and probably be our go to play at end of games.

  2. Just for giggles I went back into the KB archives and re-read the comments right after the draft about Porzingis. Most of us were cautiously optimistic about him. A handful loved the pick and a handful hated it (I preferred WCS but was OK with the pick).

    Looking at his performance so far, he’s been OK statistically. What I think has us all excited is seeing how smart, tough and driven Kristaps is. What he does now matters but not as much as what he does next year and the year after. What do you think about your own knee-jerk reactions after the draft?

  3. I am feeling pretty good about my final comment…

    After a day of sober reflection, I am all in on KP. Screw it. There has to be something about this season to enjoy and for me I think it will be watching the limited minutes he gets. At the very least he is a guy you can dream on, maybe the one thing about the Knicks next year that will keep me from being a total killjoy.

    Well, that and Galloway’s defense….

  4. I’m not embarrassed by comment, so that’s good:

    Mixed feelings.

    On the plus side, I think it shows us that phil has no delusions about this team being able to compete with Melo in the next 1-2 years.

    But the cupboard is so bare, I think we needed to go with a less risky player like WCS or Winslow. I would’ve taken the double, but I can’t kill Phil for swinging for the fences.

    PS – I went to the draft day thread for that: http://knickerblogger.net/in-the-basketball-gods-we-trust-the-2015-nba-draft-open-thread/

    Also, I was at the draft, and I was one of the people who cheered, so I’ve got that going for me, too. Then again, I also cheered Jordan Hill when I was at that draft. I just don’t see the point in booing a draft pick.

  5. Ha, I also said this:

    Just a thought:

    Imagine if Porzingis pans out and becomes the best player in the draft, like many say he could be….
    In addition, imagine if Grant is a solid starter for the next 7 years.

    We will owe it all to Tim Hardaway Jr going off in two meaningless regular season games

    That’s right. Tim Hardaway Jr is the prime mover in a series of events that could possibly turn the Knicks’ fortunes around. Save that, Brian Cronin, for a future Knicks forgotten history.

  6. Can we make a concerted effort to try to vote KP into the All-Star game?

    Love the captions!

    Yes! All 30 of us regulars will carry him to it.

    “I don’t think that’s how basketball works.”

    Ha!

    Cue 1,000-word response from a certain verbose Carmelo fanboy: “Well, actually…”

  7. Ouch. He just said the readership of this site is 30 people. I hear you, THCJ, it does take hundreds of thousands of votes to get into the All-Star Game. I would just like to see the Knicks fans get behind it. Toronto made a push to get Kyle Lowry in the game last year and DC did it for Arenas years ago.

  8. Ouch. He just said the readership of this site is 30 people. I hear you, THCJ, it does take hundreds of thousands of votes to get into the All-Star Game. I would just like to see the Knicks fans get behind it. Toronto made a push to get Kyle Lowry in the game last year and DC did it for Arenas years ago.

    Oooh, you meant “Knicks fans” like in general. Here, half of us are Knicks fans, and the others just like Porzingis, Galloway, and the 1 other good player on the Knicks. What’s his name again … oh yeah, Jerian Grant.

  9. What does Langston Galloway have to do to get you people to realize he’s the best player on the team? If anyone on the Knicks deserves to go to the all-star game surely it’s our best player?

  10. Latvia will be voting like mad for kp, he’s like Jesus and Ferguson rolled into one over there. He’ll be voted in watch

  11. My comment was not so bad:

    Now that we have him, I have to say I don’t feel at all like trading him. I want to see him in summer league and see how he develops after that.

  12. Pretty happy with my “response”:

    I’m sold on Porzingis if only due to his familiarity with American culture:

    @bzcohen: “He has a great sense of American culture,” a Kristaps Porzingis teammate told me. “He goes on WorldStarHipHop every day.”

    @bzcohen: I told Kristaps Porzingis this week that I heard he went on WorldStar every day. Zinger’s response: “Not every day.”

    I think my real feelings came in threads prior to draft day where I was pretty high on Cauley-Stein but was also thinking that we may as well swing for the fences with KP even if the odds of achieving his “ceiling” were low. I’d still be ecstatic if we picked Cauley-Stein, as those 2 players are the 2 best players of this draft besides Towns, IMO.

  13. My quotes after the draft:

    Yesterday I said:

    I assume Towns, Okafor and Russell are gone. I would want them in that order if available. Otherwise…

    I want WCS. Will be OK with Mudiay, Winslow or Porzingas.

    I predict they draft Stephan Marbury.

    So I’ll stand by my words. I’m OK with the pick. Just OK. Phil has a lot of work to do in free agency

  14. What does Langston Galloway have to do to get you people to realize he’s the best player on the team? If anyone on the Knicks deserves to go to the all-star game surely it’s our best player?

    I think that people who visit this site do appreciate Galloway. Unfortunately, I also think that Detlef Schrempf and Chris Gatling are the only reserves who have made the All-Star Game in the last 25 years.

  15. Pretty happy with my comment:

    Channing Frye is a softie, and to a lesser extent so is Gallo. None of the two is a good comp to Zinger, who seems like a tough kid with an overachiever personality. I know these kind of observations are looked down at over here but have you guys seen him go for blocks, and putback dunks? He’s a legit go for it kind of guy.

    I did also thought he seemed like a bad rebounder, which fortunately he isn’t.

  16. KP’s stats are insanely good for a player who isn’t shooting the ball particularly well. Let’s list the team On-Off stats for every major rookie contributor this season:

    ORtg

    Winslow +15.7
    Cauley-Stein +25.0
    PorzinGod +11.2
    Towns +2.6
    Mudiay -2.3
    Okafor’s -27.5 (LOL)

    Winslow and Cauley-Stein, the two players ahead of PorzinGod, are role players on their teams.

  17. What conclusions can we draw from 12 games of team on/off numbers?

    That Okafor is the biggest factor as to why the Sixers can’t buy a win?

  18. Screw sending Zinger to the All Star game. Let him relax for a week, maybe go back to Latvia, eat some piradzinis and klingeris and keep bulking up.

  19. I was really impressed with the old draft night posts. Most people here were on the money with how they approached the PorzinGod pick. Ted Nelson’s posts were some of the best.

  20. @29 — absolutely none, but it’s pretty funny nonetheless. Just for curiosity’s sake, I went to a Sixer fan blog to see what they thought and most of them seem pretty high on Okafor so far. They had a reader poll on the site and the question was whether people still bought into Hinkie’s rebuilding plan. 47% said yes, 32% said no and 21% said that they never bought into it.

  21. Some takeaways from that trip down memory lane:

    > Jowles once again failed to go on the record
    > The “DRed for GM” campaign is in a ditch
    > Ted Nelson’s posts were not a slog to read through (amnesty for Ted and jon abbey?)
    > Pelton had Hernangomez at #21 in his rankings YAY!
    > Pelton had Delon Wright (picked right after Jerian) ranked #10 and Jerian #23 BOO!
    > ESPN has taken down Smith’s Porzingis rant (hmm how long do they keep videos on-line?)
    > Every thread, no matter the topic, ultimately reduces to an argument over Melo

  22. I was against the Porzingis pick because I wanted WCS. I remember expletives after the pick. I’m definitely okay with it now though!

  23. > Every thread, no matter the topic, ultimately reduces to an argument over Melo

    I agree, we should definitely trade Melo

  24. Boogie for Langston, Kristaps and a conditional 1st..it’s coming, boys

    STOP this ludicrous talk about any Boogie trade!!

    Every thread, no matter the topic, ultimately reduces to an argument over Melo

    I agree, we should definitely trade Melo

    Boogie for Melo and Galloway?

  25. Stop with the Boogie for Kristaps trade BS. IT IS NEVER HAPPENING. Phil will not allow it. Melo is fine with the rebuild and waiting a few years for his rings. Also, even with the Dolan logic that Dolan only cares about money, Zinger is all ready a bigger star than Boogie bc of the fact that he’s from Latvia (Eastern European fans are an untapped market) and he’s 7′ 3″ and more of an interesting media story than Cousins. So its not going to happen and I wish people would stop putting this negative BS out there. Those days are over and if you can’t see that then you are being willfully blind to the real changes that have happened to this franchise. Dolan has relinquished control.

  26. Also why would Phil even entertain Boogie for Zinger AND Galloway. Hey do you guys want to give us your two best young players for one not quite as young (albeit better now but at his ceiling) player on a larger contract who has a history of being a malcontent right when you’ve spent the last year and a half getting rid of malcontents? Do you even watch what is going on with this franchise?

    People need to realize that even dudes like Dolan can change and grow up and just because the Knicks were bad and a joke for most of the last 15 years does not mean that is inevitably going to be where we are forever. Shit changes and it has for us.

  27. bc of the fact that he’s from Latvia (Eastern European fans are an untapped market) and he’s 7? 3? and more of an interesting media story than Cousins.

    Residents of the Baltics are coughing quietly in the corner and muttering under their breadth about how they really are more like Scandinavians.

    You could fit all the Baltics inside one of KP’s shoes I believe.

    As for the more interesting media property, I would DEFINITELY tune in to a Demarcus Cousins reality show, especially if he is in LA and near the Kardashians.

  28. People need to realize that even dudes like Dolan can change and grow up

    LOL. Grow up? He’s a middle age man. This is who he is.

    Dude only cares about being right. Let’s just hope he keeps his nose out of the team’s affairs long enough for Phil to rebuild/retool it properly.

  29. Lmao at that people in that draft thread saying Melo hates KP based on Isola and SAS reports. Yeah seems like he’s been real prick with Porzingis.

    I was pretty neutral and just wanted to see things shake out. I don’t know how much instant reactions to a draft pick mean for any of anyways. By and large fans will get behind a guy if he shows some promise. Same thing happened when we drafted Gallinari and he got booed and then became a fan favorite. Knicks fans get a lot of shit for booing guys on draft days, but almost every draft choice we had that has been decent and stayed on the Knicks longer than 5 minutes received good support from the fanbase. Shit Shumpert sucked for damn near 4 years and a lot of us were still trying to talk ourselves in to his potential.

  30. Zanzibar is talking himself out of a plum front office spot next year, that’s all I know.

    Stop jinxing Galloway! Look what happened to the career of another promising young player after you adopted him. What was that guy’s name? Cool Ostrich or something like that.

  31. Knicks fans get a lot of shit for booing guys on draft days, but almost every draft choice we had that has been decent and stayed on the Knicks longer than 5 minutes received good support from the fanbase.

    They only talk shit because its the Knicks. Go look at the video of Golden State’s selection of Steph Curry in the 2009 draft. Warriors fans booed it. Not a fucking peep about it from their fans now.

  32. He’s a middle age man. This is who he is.

    Yep, he’s 60yo, not gonna change. The scary part is that he’s very impulsive. He extended Isiah’s contract after a dramatic victory. He fired GG out of nowhere. He rehired Isiah. The MSG long knives that were out for Phil after last season are temporarily back in the drawer but Dolan could wake up one morning and who knows what he might do? My prediction: we sign Durant this summer and Dolan then fires Phil and installs Isiah.

  33. Stop with the Boogie for Kristaps trade BS. IT IS NEVER HAPPENING.

    Now Kristaps for Tyson Chandler, there’s a trade anyone with half a brain would do. Efficiency baby!

  34. Now Kristaps for Tyson Chandler, there’s a trade anyone with half a brain would do. Efficiency baby!

    You’re just trying to rile us all up, aren’t you?

    Here are my trade offers:
    Amundson for Cousins
    Lance Thomas for LeBron
    Vujacic for Harden
    Calderon for Steph Curry

    Any takers?

  35. Thanks for posting the link to the post-draft thread — reading my own stuff is both good:

    I’m totally fine with the Porzingis pick. The best part of having a top lottery pick is that you have chance at getting a star. IMHO the top of the draft is not the place to try to hit a single or a double. Yes, sometimes you have a Lebron or Anthony Davis or even Carmelo that you know will be a star, but for lack of that guy I think you need to look into the future and see which guy has the highest chance of being that star…The noise out there from Woj and all the writers is that there is a lot of sentiment out there among GMs that KP could end up being the best player in this draft. There’s nothing not to like about that.

    and bad:

    I think KP will play 15 minutes/game next year, and average 16 points, 7 rebounds, and 2 blocks per 36.

    Man was I too pessimistic about PORZINGOD

  36. Nice article from Herring talking about how Calderon, Dirk, and others struggled shooting 3s in their first year (includes quotes from players). One talked about how it’s important to have your legs or stamina. Zinger talked about the differences in the texture of the ball and how practice is much easier than a game. Though not specifically mentioned, I’d imagine hitting the rookie wall would prevent a jump in first year due to stamina issues.

    Gallo shot 42.6% in college and 35% his rookie year in pros. This past summer he really worked on conditioning and 3FG and it’s obviously paid dividends. Players usually are able to improve spot-up shooting if they really focus on it. Remember how players who suffer ACL injuries often improve their shooting because that’s all they’re able to really do? Let’s hope Grant, like Gallo, puts in that effort this summer because the 3ball may be his only glaring weakness.

  37. I am very proud to have uttered on draft night:

    I may have had one single malt too many, just told my wife that soon she’d be chanting Cunnilingis for Porzingis.

  38. LOL. Has anyone read about how Kevin McHale’s wife, Lynn, went on Twitter and ripped Rockets management and James Harden a new asshole over her husband’s firing? According to her tweets, which she later erased, the Kardashian curse is true. She strongly insinuates blame upon Harden’s lack of will to play defense as a sticking point between her husband and the Houston star.

    What a mess they have in Houston. Its just a situation where the star players in Howard and Harden aren’t meshing well together.

  39. My prediction: we sign Durant this summer and Dolan then fires Phil and installs Isiah.

    If that happens there will be a riot among the fandom.

  40. Boogie for Langston, Kristaps and a conditional 1st
    it’s coming, boys

    You seem to be forgetting that this is the Sacramento Kings we’re talking about. They’re more likely to keep Boogie and flip Willie Cauley-Stein for Monta Ellis or something ridiculous like that.

  41. You seem to be forgetting that this is the Sacramento Kings we’re talking about. They’re more likely to keep Boogie and flip Willie Cauley-Stein for Monta Ellis or something ridiculous like that.

    Ha! Totally right.

  42. I’m happy to report that my comment in that old thread, #71, was very positive about the draft. I really liked the draft at the time. Even more now!

  43. You seem to be forgetting that this is the Sacramento Kings we’re talking about. They’re more likely to keep Boogie and flip Willie Cauley-Stein for Monta Ellis or something ridiculous like that.

    I have dreams about Divac on the phone with Phil talking WCS trades.

    The only trade that Sacto would include WCS in is a salary matching Melo trade where we take on Rudy Gay though, unfortunately. We don’t have a shot at getting him unless the Randive brain trust is literally insane and trades for like calderon plus some fodder or something because they think they can “win now”. Which has a non-zero probability (this IS Randive we’re talking about) but still pretty close to 0.

    I’ll still have a WCS-Porzingis frontcourt in my dreams, at least.

  44. My prediction: we sign Durant this summer and Dolan then fires Phil and installs Isiah.

    If that happens there will be a riot among the fandom.

    Nah, there’ll be some harrumphing for a couple of weeks but the fans will continue to buy tickets/jerseys and watch Knicks on MSG. What are they gonna do – start supporting the Nets? Only way Dolan puts Isiah back in charge is if it’s impossible for him to fail. In a year or two, we may be at that juncture. Hiring Isiah as President of the Liberty shows he’s capable of anything.

  45. @34

    Bruh I’ve gone on the record MANY times. Every time I post, even. I would not make a decisive prediction about a 19 year old euro prospect who’s got, what, 30 games of pro experience in a relatively unknown euro league. Even now, our posters are anointing Porzingis the next league superstar because of his recent success (and disregarding any evidence to the contrary, i.e. his earlier shooting struggles). I’m optimistic, too, but unless a player is obnoxiously bad or incredibly good as a rookie, it’s pretty damn hard to go “on the record” with a prediction without sounding like a total mouth breather like SAS or Skip Bayless. Doubly so when you’ve only seen highlight reel stuff on YouTube.

    I would have traded down and taken WCS. I wouldn’t have been wrong.

  46. What are they gonna do – start supporting the Nets?

    In that case you can legitimately enter fandom free agency, and in that case, I’ll be rooting for San Antonio. Fandom free agency is wonderfully arbitrary that way.

  47. @6o

    Forget the next league superstar. KP’s already been our best all around player. I don’t think we could say the same thing about Cauley-Stein.

  48. Galloway has absolutely been the best player on the Knicks. This is, like, a matter of objective truth. Porzingis has been great! Not the best player so far.

    Cauley Stein will end up like Chandler: perennially underrated, will luck out on some team with a great first option and win a chip someday. Or stay on the Kings and lose lots of games.

  49. Bruh I’ve gone on the record MANY times.

    Yeah, you’re right. I checked the archive.
    Jan: “Trade Melo”
    Feb: Trade Melo
    Mar: Trade Melo
    Apr: Trade Melo

    I would have traded down and taken WCS. I wouldn’t have been wrong.

    Did you say that at the time? And you would have been wrong anyway since WCS went at #6. I presume you weren’t talking about trading down 2 spots. So you would have missed WCS.

  50. It’s been 12 games, brosephs. Nobody knows who the best draft choices from last year were yet. Kristaps looks great, though. I probably would have been higher on him if I’d ever seen him-i remember watching his summer league debut and thinking “holy shit, that kid is HUGE”.

  51. I would trade Melo to get WCS, even if it meant taking on Gay. Three years of a not-totally onerous contract for Gay would be worth it to have WCS, Zinger, Gallo, and Grant as our core for the next decade. Especially because we could still add a max contract next year AND the year after that, when Calderon, Afflalo, and DWilliams all come off the cap.

  52. I would trade Melo to get WCS, even if it meant taking on Gay.

    Don’t think Melo (or LaLa) are approving a trade to Sacto, just a hunch

  53. I would trade Melo to get WCS

    Could you imagine a front-court of Whiteside (C), Zinger (PF), and WCS (SF)?

    Shades of Bynum, Pau, Odom.

  54. Could you imagine a front-court of Whiteside (C), Zinger (PF), and WCS (SF)?

    Shades of Bynum, Pau, Odom.

    It would be fun, but it would be nothing like Bynum, Pau, and Odom. How can you run the triangle with only 2 guys on the court who can pass? Whiteside’s appeared in 77 NBA games and he’s got 9 assists. And neither WCS or Kristaps have shown a lot of dishing ability yet.

  55. I had big crushes on Jahlil and Justise. I loved the Duke run. Saw them as the second coming of Duncan and Dwade. I guess MIA agreed. I don’t see my comments on that thread. I think I started trying nicknames…of course expecting everything to go to shit. I mean, 17 wins? Are you kiddin’ me?

    Cronin is right that all the things we were told were Staps’s weaknesses have been strengths. The rebounding has been one of the bigger surprises in recent memory. IDK why people are taking issue with shooting %’s. 11-17 was a coming out party for Kristaps. More of that than the opposite to come. Galloway wasn’t better last time out against CHA.

    Luckily for us he’s pretty popular and will put fannies in the seats. That’s what Dolan cares about. When Phil quits we should start worrying about a Boogie trade. Until then I think we can agree that he pretty much knows what he’s doing and is in control.

  56. I would be less surprised if aliens visited the Earth tomorrow than if Melo waived his no-trade clause for a trade to the Kings.

  57. Tomorrow may be the most important game of the season. We need strong outings from Zinger, Gallo and Grant. Melo needs to look spry, no lingering effects of surgery. A win or close game on OKC’s home court would make a strong impression on KD. Look at this game as an audition; the Durant recruiting process begins tomorrow night.

  58. A gimpy Melo will continue to be KD’s friend but never his teammate. And Melo is less important than Porzingod smiting the enemy and Gallo being the player OKC had hoped Lamb would be.

  59. No, Melo is more important to Durant. This is his 9th year in the league. If he was soo focused on youth he’d go to the Timberwolves

    If anything they are equally important. These guys are humans

  60. Combination of promising youth and high performing vets matters. If only vets mattered, he’d go to Miami. Knicks offer best package of youth and vets of any team which will have cap space (don’t think Miami would have enough money to sign Whiteside and Durant but who knows what Riley’s got up his sleeve).

  61. I love what Rotoworld says about Friday’s game:

    Russell Westbrook will draw an extremely favorable matchup against Jose Calderon of the Knicks, so an eye popping triple-double seems like a reasonable expectation for the stat magnet.

  62. If Fish matches Calderon against Westbrook, Phil should fire him at half-time. Westbrook could have a triple-triple.

  63. Fun digging into the logs, this is what I said back then..stand by pretty much all of it:

    “I’m good w/ the pick … we’re not winning the chip anytime soon unless we find a potential star that we don’t have to trade a boatload of assets for. Outside of outlier situations where players take less to join up — the star player on those teams have been drafted by that team. The only other player I would have been interested in at the #4 slot would have been Mudiay — but he has issues too, his lack of shooting touch and lack of fit with the system. What’s easier to fix, Kristaps strength and low post moves, or Mudiay’s 54% FT shooting and 3 point shot? WCS is going to be a good one dimensional player, but not a super star and to be Winslow has Michael Kidd-Gilchrist written all over him…good player in college, tweener, not a great shooter, differentiation driven by effort over talent”

  64. Don’t think Melo (or LaLa) are approving a trade to Sacto, just a hunch

    I’m sure you’re right (and you, too, Max F-C). I’m just saying it would be a great trade for us…and the kind of trade Sacto would make in a second. Lots of Knick fans would say it is a terrible idea, etc etc, but I think it would be our best shot at positioning ourselves to assemble a championship team.

    Whiteside, WCS, AND Zinger, though? Seems a bit like overkill. I’m not even sure I’d want Whiteside, not at the max, not when Conley would be a much better fit and plays a position of desperate need. And I LOVE Whiteside. He’s just not a great fit.

    Conley / Gallo / Melo / Zinger / RoLo

    That would be pretty solid. Tough to get from there to a championship, though, because of salary cap issues.

  65. Man, if only Chris Paul knew how to play against taller, elite PGs

    LOL. Small sample size.

    My man Jonathan Tjarks talks at length about what I’m trying to get at:

    It’s not that Chris Paul lacks the will to win and he comes up short in the playoffs because he doesn’t have the heart of a champion. The problem is that he’s short and his lack of size always rears its head at some point in the playoffs. If there was a bar that said you must be this tall to be the best player on a championship team, you would probably put it around 6’6. […] CP3 isn’t Kobe or LeBron, no matter what the stats say. Those two guys could take over a series on defense – they could man-up the opposing team’s best perimeter scorer and suffocate their offense. That’s the kind of thing that can turn a playoff series and it’s the kind of thing that CP3 has never been able to do. He lost to Carmelo in the first round in 2010 – if that was LeBron, he would have tried to lock up Melo […] One of the things that makes basketball different than most team sports is the way individual match-ups are embedded into the game. The same two guys are going at each other on offense and defense – I have to guard you but you have to guard me.

    I’m not saying he’s not a great player, but rather just that he’s not an all-time great.

  66. Not an all time great? And because of his height? Ever heard of John Stockton or Isaiah Thomas? Paul is easily one of the top 10 PGs ever to play the game…already.

  67. Steph Curry is way too short. The Dubs should trade him. Can you imagine him trying to D up Lebron like Carmelo can?

  68. I think that Tjarks blog post was saying that CP3 is a loser because he’s 6’0″ and opposing point guards abuse him…I think.

  69. Not an all time great? And because of his height? Ever heard of John Stockton or Isaiah Thomas? Paul is easily one of the top 10 PGs ever to play the game…already.

    Yes and yes. I never watched them play other than a some YouTube videos, some I can’t speak with any authority or insight. But Stockton never won a championship and Tjarks addresses Thomas (although I’m not quite sure what he means):

    Do I think it’s a coincidence 6’1 Isiah Thomas played on a team that essentially broke the game? No.

    So he thinks the success of his teams were somewhat of a special circumstance.

    I agree that he’s a top 10 PG. Tjarks’s post is a theory for Paul’s lack of success in the playoffs, and it makes a lot of sense to me. The playoffs are when the game is played at it’s highest level, and I think playoff success should factor into all-time greatness, at least in part. The playoffs become a chess game of lineups in a seven game series, and the 1-on-1 match-ups are critically important. Being 6′ makes it really hard to make the same impact defensively, in terms of both that 1-on-1 match-up and help defense, compared to someone who’s a half foot to a foot taller.

  70. Your man Tjarks wrote one of the dumber articles I’ve ever grown too exasperated with to finish.

    Well, Zach Lowe likes him too.

    Steph Curry is way too short. The Dubs should trade him. Can you imagine him trying to D up Lebron like Carmelo can?

    This is a straw man, but I’ll take the bait. Steph Curry is basically as close as you can come to breaking the game offensively, and no one in their right mind would trade him. However, the general argument with Paul applies to Curry too. Lebron’s ability to switch onto players of all sizes has been crucial in a few series. He can guard every position but the 5, and guard the other team’s best player when his team needs it. Curry would be better if he could do that, or if he could protect the rim like Duncan. Curry and Paul can’t protect the rim, guard multiple positions, or consistently shutdown opposing PGs. That makes a difference when compared to all-time greats. (I’ll mention that in that last two rounds of the playoffs, Curry faced off against Jason Terry and Matthew Delledova).

  71. If only you were the cavs coach – you could have put all time great Lebron on curry to lock him down and the series would have been over by your logic. You’re joking right?

  72. Lebron ain’t even that great on defense anymore. I think the 96 Bulls argument is where you can put Pippen on dude

  73. If only you were the cavs coach – you could have put all time great Lebron on curry to lock him down and the series would have been over by your logic. You’re joking right?

    Where are you getting that from? As er says, Lebron isn’t that great on defense anymore. He’s older and slower and not as well equipped to defend guards. Obviously shutting (or slowing) down one person doesn’t end a series. Being able to guard multiple positions is a great tool to have in the playoffs, like when Lebron guarded Tony Parker. I don’t know how you can argue against that.

    I’ll try phrasing it another way: to be an “all-time great,” you have to be elite on offense and defense. It’s really hard to be elite on defense when you’re 6′ (even if you lead the league in steals 6 times).

  74. I guess Tim Duncan is not an all-time great either.

    He can surely guard PFs and C, but can he guard PGs???

    That’s nonsense.

    Magic was pretty much a average defender. His size gave him some versatility but he wasn’t even close from a lock down defender at any position.

  75. The problem with guarding Curry even with an “elite” defender is that no single player can guard a guy out to 28 feet with the Warriors’ screen game. The only chance you might have is to hard trap all the screens and just hope your rotations are fast enough. But when that high screen is coming 28 feet from the basket, the defense is just too spread out.

    I’m no coach, but the way I’d start at least is to pressure the ball as much as possible coming up court so perhaps they don’t really get into their offense until there’s 16 sec or so left in the clock, then trap/hard-hedge all the screens they set to free up Curry. At least you make them hurry then, and perhaps choose a shot that’s not quite as good. I dunno. Don’t think there’s an answer when you have a guy who literally can shoot it at 45% from 28 feet whether off the dribble or with a hand in his grill.

    (Actually the real way I’d do it is have guys hack Curry as hard as possible on his shooting arm/hand every time he shoots. Sure he’ll get some 4 point plays but 10 hard fouls on his shooting arm later, my guess is his shot will be affected). And if he goes to the basket, KNOCK HIM DOWN. Literally I think the only possible way to beat him is to wear him out physically.

  76. Maybe the reason CP3 never made it past the 2nd round is because he has shitty teammates and the Clippers, while better, are a poorly designed basketball team in a dominant hyper competitive conference? Nah, couldn’t be–it’s definitely his height!
    Also CP3 has always been an elite PG guard defender even discounting his lack of steals.

  77. They only talk shit because its the Knicks. Go look at the video of Golden State’s selection of Steph Curry in the 2009 draft. Warriors fans booed it. Not a fucking peep about it from their fans now.

    Actually, Ras1980, those weren’t Warriors fans booing. That draft was at the theater in MSG and I was there. Those were Knicks fans booing because we wanted Curry and he got selected one pick in front of us.

  78. That’s was hysterical. Clyde would have held him to 8. That one almost made me spill my morning coffee.

  79. Ok, seriously now, how good does a basketball team have to be for me to check the score online, see they are down 23, and think to myself “they are definitely going to win this?”

    I almost feel like GS is less likely to lose a game they are down big in than to lose a game where they are lulled to sleep by a crappy team that keeps hanging around. When they go down big, they play some inspired basketball!

    I really enjoyed watching the 90s Bulls play and revere the 72 win record, but I could see Golden State getting to 73 this year if they stay focused, which is a big if.

  80. Man, if only Chris Paul knew how to play against taller, elite PGs.

    Just saw the box score from last night. Man. It must be nice to have one of those guys! Or at least be on west coast time so I could watch them.

  81. Re-reading the draft night thread was fun. I really really hope that Porzingis turns out to be great so that, the next time that THCJ reminds us how brilliant he was in projecting that Drummond would be great, we can remind him of his opinion a few hours after the Porzingis pick:

    “The trade does not make up for the botching of the lottery pick (both the slot and the selection) because it had no bearing whatsoever on the subsequent trade.
    They are not related. Phil Jackson cooked a shitty, burnt, poisonous meal and then a Michelin-star meal. You had to eat both. Are you happy about the first one just because the second one tasted good?”

    (The trade that he was referring to in the quote was the Grant trade.) So, remember, THCJ’s opinion was that the Porzingis pick was a “shitty, burnt, poisonous meal.”

  82. Frank Vogel should win coach of the year for getting a really good season out of Lance. Curry was destroying Austin Rivers in front of his daddy and Lance didn’t budge off the bench

  83. Looking at the standings these days is painting an interesting picture. The East is better than it has been. It looks like teams need to be over .500 (~45 wins) to make the playoffs.

  84. (Actually the real way I’d do it is have guys hack Curry as hard as possible on his shooting arm/hand every time he shoots. Sure he’ll get some 4 point plays but 10 hard fouls on his shooting arm later, my guess is his shot will be affected). And if he goes to the basket, KNOCK HIM DOWN. Literally I think the only possible way to beat him is to wear him out physically.

    You have to limi the team from shooting threes and then go “no lapyups” on EVERYBODY. Curry is going to to be hard to stop. what you have a chance with is preventing Draymond, Klay, Barnes, Iggy, etc from being effective. And then maybe after half a season of that, they will be worn down enough that you might be able to close them out.

    My parents are visiting, so I am going to surprise my dad with warriors/lakers tickets. He is a huge lakers fan, but has never seen them play. I am sure he will like seeing the game, but I’m not sure watching the Lakers lose by 50 isn’t going to be ideal.

  85. Kobe: hey staps, you ever consider the west coast life?

    Kp: nah actually I love the challenge of playing at the mecca half my games and resurrecting basketball in ny. We don’t all have a Shaq to lean on.

    Kobe: see I’m a hollowed out she’ll of the player I was and this Russell kid is 3 years away from being a factor, sound familiar?

    Kp: haha yeah I proved sas and that crying kid at the draft wrong in 12 games. Just wait till they see my when I’m not deferring my shots.
    Kobe: I know you remind me of Pau with 90 percent more testosterone. How about this, you tell Phil to trade calderon for my expiring deal, and I’ll be the facilitator you guys need.

    Kp (breaks into uncontrollable laughter) umm didn’t you single handedly wreck Bynum with your attitude and shot quantity?
    Kobe:(waves hand at kps face) I am the playmaker your looking for

  86. I have seen posts praising THJ for those 2 games which in retrospect dropped us to the 2nd most ping pong balls and ultimately into the 4th slot.

    While it was a gift that we went from 2 to 4 as it forced us to bypass Russell, if we lose those 2 games, we would have the number 1 pick as Minnesota ended up winning it all.

    So , THJ did ultimately screw us. As much as I love Zinger , I believe Towns has just as much, if more upside with a safer floor.

    I do love grant though so I can see it coming down to grant/zinger vs towns/thj.

  87. Stating with certainty that Minnesota won the lottery because of the extra few percentage points seems unsound.

    Maybe Silver or PWC or whoever pulled one of the couple hundred ping pong balls Minny would have had even as the second worst team.

  88. its very simple… Just remove Minnesota from the combination that won and insert New York.
    The recipient would not have changed the results.

  89. Garson –

    Going from first to second is a 5% swing. Not insignificant, but bear in mind that even the worst team’s odds at getting the #1 pick are only 25%. So

    if we lose those 2 games, we would have the number 1 pick as Minnesota ended up winning it all.

    is simply not true. The Knicks had 80% as good a shot at the #1 pick even in the #2 slot!

    Should we have won those games? Absolutely not, since that extra 5% is still valuable. But it isn’t the binary result you’re presenting. Lots of things could have happened. People aren’t saying THJ did us a favor because we didn’t get Towns; they’re saying that if we didn’t get the #1 pick, we got lucky dropping to #4, because there probably isn’t anyone in the NBA right now who would take Okafor or Russell over the Zinger.

  90. Garson, I qualified it with “If KP turns out to be the best player.” In many of my other posts, I have alluded to how outstanding Towns has been. It is still obviously to early to tell, but it’s fun to think about.

    Rama, it’s a fact: had we not won two more games, the number combinations that were assigned to Minnesota would have been assigned to us and we would have gotten the top pick. It’s not about percentages bc it’s not like they just gave Minnesota two more balls than us and it’s impossible to determine which ball was selected. We know that would have been our combination.

  91. Re-reading the draft night thread was fun. I really really hope that Porzingis turns out to be great so that, the next time that THCJ reminds us how brilliant he was in projecting that Drummond would be great, we can remind him of his opinion a few hours after the Porzingis pick:

    (The trade that he was referring to in the quote was the Grant trade.) So, remember, THCJ’s opinion was that the Porzingis pick was a “shitty, burnt, poisonous meal.”

    I don’t think I projected Drummond to be a good NBA player. He wasn’t very good in college. He is the archetypal “picked because of his NBA-ready body and athleticism.” I did, however, call him a ridiculously awesome rookie, which was what he was. I believe there were posters on this board who called him a bases-clogger, saying that Greg Monroe was the true star in that frontcourt. Hilariously stupid.

    Don’t you just love to reason with the clarity of hindsight? Here, let me help bring you back to the time before the draft:

    1) Jackson and Fisher allow the team to win games. Totally fucking inexplicable. Of course you want the #1 pick, no matter what you do. Want to trade down to #2-10? It’s doable. You can get tons of assets. There was no fucking explanation whatsoever for the team to win even a single game down the stretch. It was a mistake. There is no “but” in this scenario.

    2) If you think I’m going to praise Jackson for drafting an unknown European talent (and I’m repeating myself here) after a few dozen professional games and some workouts, you’re out of your fucking mind. The draft is a crapshoot, but especially with overseas players. The guy chose to play 4-9 offsuit and ended up with a full house. Wow! Good job, Jax!

  92. Rama, it’s a fact: had we not won two more games, the number combinations that were assigned to Minnesota would have been assigned to us and we would have gotten the top pick. It’s not about percentages bc it’s not like they just gave Minnesota two more balls than us and it’s impossible to determine which ball was selected. We know that would have been our combination.

    Well, no. Because, not to be silly here, but we live in the universe where the Knicks DID win two more games, and the ping-pong balls assigned to Minny did what they did. We do NOT live in the universe where the Knicks did NOT win two more games, and in which we have no idea how the ping-pong balls would have gone. Because that did not happen.

    In other words, you can’t postulate that “if I went left instead of went right X would have happened,” because you don’t have any knowledge of a universe in which that happened. It all could have been different, or exactly the same – but you can’t actually know.

  93. @115 you’re ignoring that Clarence gains watched dozens of kps games live at the behest of phil. This wasn’t phil rolling the dice on a euro, Gaines told phil to take the kid number 1. The knicks knew what they were drafting, Phil said as much after the draft “I think they’ll be surprised by how he plays” you’re dollar store Stephen a smith impression is getting tired

  94. “I don’t think I projected Drummond to be a good NBA player.”
    Sorry. My mistake. I recall now that it was after the season when you made the ludicrous statement that Drummond had just had the best rookie season of any center in the history of the NBA. Feel free to substitute someone whom you did project as a good player into my post. The rest of the post can stay the same.
    “2) If you think I’m going to praise Jackson for drafting an unknown European talent (and I’m repeating myself here) after a few dozen professional games and some workouts, you’re out of your fucking mind.”
    Well, no, I don’t expect to for you to judge his performance based on a dozen games, which is why I said that I HOPE that he turns out to be great. However, since you think that I would be “out of my fucking mind” if I had, in fact, expected that, maybe you might want to consider that it was perhaps a little bit premature for you to conclude that the pick of an “unkown” talent was a “shitty, burnt, poisonous meal” based, at best, on some youtube videos that you saw.

  95. @115

    Jowles –

    1) Agreed.

    2) Really? You can’t EVER admit you might have been wrong? You said:

    The trade does not make up for the botching of the lottery pick (both the slot and the selection) because it had no bearing whatsoever on the subsequent trade…Phil Jackson cooked a shitty, burnt, poisonous meal and then a Michelin-star meal.

    Now that it appears it might not be a “shitty, burnt, poisonous meal,” your argument is that “the draft is a crapshoot?” PJax had access to information that you did not – a private workout, a scout following the player for months – and a) you say his choice is terrible, not acknowledging he may have superior information, and b) say that no one can know how these things will work out? That’s like watching someone get private information from a company and then invest in that company and then criticizing the investment – and then when the investment returns 3X still saying “just dumb luck,” when in fact it’s the EXACT OPPOSITE.

    In short, it’s nothing at all like having a 4 and 9 and pulling a full house. It’s like having suited jack, queen, king and pulling … well, we don’t know yet. Could be a couple more kings. Could be just one queen. Or it could be ten/ace suited. But the odds are good that it’s something positive.

  96. Jowles –

    1) Agreed.

    2) Really? You can’t EVER admit you might have been wrong?

    Would be like Donald Trump admitting that he inherited a real estate empire from his dad

  97. If the Knicks lost two more games the ping pong balls would have moved differently? Is this some sort of quantum entanglement?

  98. PJax had access to information that you did not – a private workout, a scout following the player for months – and a) you say his choice is terrible, not acknowledging he may have superior information, and b) say that no one can know how these things will work out?

    A private workout!?!?!?!?!?! WOWOWOWOWOWOWOWOWOW DRAFT HIM

    I recall now that it was after the season when you made the ludicrous statement that Drummond had just had the best rookie season of any center in the history of the NBA. Feel free to substitute someone whom you did project as a good player into my post. The rest of the post can stay the same.

    Ludicrous? hahahahahahahahahaha you just love those historical narratives, don’t you

    you should look at the stats from time to time

  99. This wasn’t phil rolling the dice on a euro, Gaines told phil to take the kid number 1. The knicks knew what they were drafting, Phil said as much after the draft “I think they’ll be surprised by how he plays” you’re dollar store Stephen a smith impression is getting tired

    I jsut can’t respond to you’re reasoning

  100. Cockjowles, I’ma let you finish, but David Robinson had the best rookie season for an NBA center of all time. (he was 24, tho) He was arguably not only the best center, but the best player in the NBA

  101. Would be like Donald Trump admitting that he inherited a real estate empire from his dad

    talk about tortured metaphors

  102. A private workout!?!?!?!?!?! WOWOWOWOWOWOWOWOWOW DRAFT HIM

    I’m with you on most things, but this is unfair. Kevin Pelton had Porzingis ranked very well via his projection model, for what it’s worth. There WAS empirical data on the guy and it generally painted a good picture, albeit a limited one. Combine that with scouting and I think credit is due for the pick.

  103. Cockjowles, I’ma let you finish, but David Robinson had the best rookie season for an NBA center of all time. (he was 24, tho) He was arguably not only the best center, but the best player in the NBA

    I can hang with that. Drummond was still a better rookie than a lot of hall-of-famers, and — surprise — the media catches up with his greatness when he starts scoring more points (albeit at lower efficiency). But you know all of that.

  104. The Heat were able to pretty much shut down the Warriors’ screen game IIRC. They just doubled Curry on every screen and let Green shoot threes, only meeting him if he came towards the rim.

    I think what the Warriors ended up doing was just isolating Curry though, with great success.

  105. I’m with you on most things, but this is unfair. Kevin Pelton had Porzingis ranked very well via his projection model, for what it’s worth. There WAS empirical data on the guy and it generally painted a good picture, albeit a limited one. Combine that with scouting and I think credit is due for the pick.

    Key word: limited. I am happy with the pick now, but I cannot believe that some posters think they’re objective when they criticize my criticism of the pick before the draft. It was not a “safe” pick the way that Willie Cauley-Stein was. And with Chandler 2.0 just sitting there, it was a gamble. Looks good, but much better now than then.

  106. your*

    Wow, thanks for correcting that homophone error that I definitely didn’t put there on purpose.

  107. A private workout!?!?!?!?!?! WOWOWOWOWOWOWOWOWOW DRAFT HIM

    Thus the answer cometh: no, you cannot ever admit you might have been wrong. Oh well. I thought you were a scientist, but I guess you’re just a theologian.

    If the Knicks lost two more games the ping pong balls would have moved differently? Is this some sort of quantum entanglement?

    More like a quantum multiverse. Adventures in Hilbert space.

  108. Thus the answer cometh: no, you cannot ever admit you might have been wrong. Oh well. I thought you were a scientist, but I guess you’re just a theologian.

    Bruh, is it wrong to hit on 17 if the 4 of clubs drops on the next card?

    ¯\_(?)_/¯

  109. Key word: limited. I am happy with the pick now, but I cannot believe that some posters think they’re objective when they criticize my criticism of the pick before the draft. It was not a “safe” pick the way that Willie Cauley-Stein was. And with Chandler 2.0 just sitting there, it was a gamble. Looks good, but much better now than then.

    I generally agree with you on most points, but pretending there wasn’t any risk involved in WCS is as much “clarity of hindsight” as it is to say that Porzingis wasn’t a risky pick.

  110. I agree that it is not just luck that we got Porzingis at number 4. To say that, you would have to also be saying that the draft is completely luck and GMs have no idea what they are doing in it. If you don’t believe that, then it has to be the case that there are some GMs out there that would have screwed up the fourth pick in this draft by picking someone worse than Porzingis. In that case, there is definitely skill involved in Jackson not screwing up the pick.

    In a larger sense, the Knicks generally seem to have a good scouting organization when it comes to Europe. They acquired Prigioni, Mozgov and Copeland at the cost of no draft picks, all of whom have played significant roles for one NBA team or another. They also didn’t acquire any busts from Europe (I don’t count Bargnani, because he already had an extensive NBA record when they got him). Correctly evaluating Porzingis seems to be more of the same of this.

  111. If Justise Winslow is the best player in the NBA in 3 years and Zinger is finalizing his divorce from one of the Kardashians from his rehab center, did Phil make a good pick?

  112. I mean Jowles is right in that Porzingis was a “bad bet” (as in low percentage) even though he played a similar amount of games as the college one and dones (because of less minutes, different league, different style from US basketball, etc). And there were players available who were known quantities (WCS) that we would’ve been justified or even more justified in taking over Porzingis.

    That being said, I think that this team was in such an awful situation that Phil chose to swing for the fences on the bad bet that could yield greater rewards as opposed to a relatively safe bet that gives you a very good but not HOF level player (assuming he pans out like Tyson did). I can’t really blame Phil much, given how few bites at the apple we have and how the next few draft classes project (I.e not very good) and how desperately this team needs a legit star rookie to build around for the next 10 years. Just because a play is low percentage doesn’t mean it’s necessarily bad–it’s just bad if all other things are equal compared to a higher percentage play.

    That being said, if I were in Phils shoes I probably would’ve drafted WCS.

  113. Bruh, is it wrong to hit on 17 if the 4 of clubs drops on the next card?

    Stick with your poker metaphor: Porzingis was like a jack, queen, king of hearts. It could come up as absolutely nothing – king high. Or it could end up a royal flush. It’s risky, but high-reward risk.

    Meanwhile, WCS – THE PLAYER I ADVOCATED FOR – was like three fives: a hand that probably puts you in the driver’s seat; but a hand that would be beaten by a straight, a flush, and obviously a royal flush – or even just three of a kind of any of the cards the other player was holding.

    The odds are better for the guy who starts with three fives, but if you are short-stacked, going all-in on the suited jack/queen/king is a smart play. It certainly looks (small sample size notwithstanding) like it was a smart play for Phil.

  114. I generally agree with you on most points, but pretending there wasn’t any risk involved in WCS is as much “clarity of hindsight” as it is to say that Porzingis wasn’t a risky pick.

    There is risk with every NBA draftee. My point is that he was a safer pick, and with good potential, at that time.

    My desired strategy has always been to draft players that had stellar 3- and 4- year NCAA careers, like Langston Galloway (I did not even know he existed until he joined the Knicks, though). Fill the roster with solid role players and then “swing for the fences” by signing true superstars in free agency.

    Oh, and by the way, I wanted the Knicks to draft/sign Will Barton.

    http://knickerblogger.net/knicks-morning-news-wednesday-sep-26-2012/#comment-404030

    Why? Not because I absolutely *knew* he’d end up as an emerging star on the Nuggets (lol), but because he was a low-risk pick with outstanding stats in college.

    I’m not quite as conservative as Hinkie, but I think that drafting young Euro players is a high-risk move, no matter what your scouts and private workouts indicate.

  115. The odds are better for the guy who starts with three fives, but if you are short-stacked, going all-in on the suited jack/queen/king is a smart play. It certainly looks (small sample size notwithstanding) like it was a smart play for Phil.

    This poker metaphor has gotten out of hand.

    You still need the above-average-to-good players on a championship team. There’s nothing wrong with Cauley-Stein, especially as he’s a young rookie. He’s going to get better, probably! Picking a player of his ability — which he has already demonstrated — is a great move for a franchise. It sets them up to capitalize on a solid base in free agency.

  116. And for the purists out there, I’m talking about 7-card stud, not Texas Hold ‘Em or Omaha. Otherwise you’re starting with two cards and not three.

  117. @123 , you can’t respond because I am right. Pax had straps targeted and sent Gaines to Spain for a monah to watch him play. They KNEW about his motor and that he was a gym rat, first hand, not through rumors and grainy video, which is why he fell to 4

  118. @thcj, caulk stein is averaging a whooping 9 and 5… safe pick translates to role player, the knicks needed a star, not a rotation big. Just give phil his due

  119. There is risk with every NBA draftee. My point is that he was a safer pick, and with good potential, at that time.

    My desired strategy has always been to draft players that had stellar 3- and 4- year NCAA careers, like Langston Galloway (I did not even know he existed until he joined the Knicks, though). Fill the roster with solid role players and then “swing for the fences” by signing true superstars in free agency.

    Oh, and by the way, I wanted the Knicks to draft/sign Will Barton.

    http://knickerblogger.net/knicks-morning-news-wednesday-sep-26-2012/#comment-404030

    Why? Not because I absolutely *knew* he’d end up as an emerging star on the Nuggets (lol), but because he was a low-risk pick with outstanding stats in college.

    I’m not quite as conservative as Hinkie, but I think that drafting young Euro players is a high-risk move, no matter what your scouts and private workouts indicate.

    Fair enough. I just think that as soon as Towns was off the board, the risk-reward calculation changed significantly for the Knicks. So it wasn’t an absurd risk, relative to the other options on the table, to take Porzingis there (not based on a workout, of course, but you inevitably have to hypothesize about projection).

    Anyways, I’m just glad they didn’t draft Okafor. My guess is that he’ll have a long career, and will become the most overrated player of this draft.

  120. @cock jowles, free agency is where you go for doubles and tripkes, no team let’s a hrs player walk and if they do, it’s taking a third of your cap. You swing for the fences in the draft and supplement what you’ve built there with fa’s Ala okc, golden state, San Antonio and every other hyper successful nba franchise

  121. And Jowles, I finally went to see what I wrote on draft night:

    Really hate that the Pacers got Turner.

    But I’m OK with our pick. I still would have preferred WCS, foot issues and all, but I do agree that KP has a higher ceiling.

    So, yeah, I’m more the guy who wanted to build a solid base – bet on my three fives. But I’m glad Phil isn’t.

  122. We have to stop this nonsense that Euro players are unknown commodities.

    Those guys are pros. Some of them playing in much stronger leagues than NCAA. All of them have stats available

    Between a NCAA “superstar” and an Euro bench player, OK, go for the safer bet.

    But a 20y.o. guy playing against grown men has nothing to me ashamed of.

    We always remember Darko and Bargs, but there is a strong list of Euros drafted recentry that are solid players.

    The problem is that nobody gives a crap to watch foreign leagues. So every time one is drafted, everybody hold their breaths like it’s disaster waiting to happen.

  123. Russel had “the most superstar potential” of anyone in the draft according to espn, not to say he won’t get there one day, but he looks 3 years away from being average. Mudiay is a turnover machine that can’t shoot, wcs ceiling is 12 and 10. Safety doesn’t exist in the draft, Sam bowie was a “safe pick” as was Joe alexander, the bucks traded dirk for the “safer” Robert traylor, olowakandi, Oden the list goes on and on. You swing for the fences in the lottery

  124. @148. I agree fully. The scouting overseas is far better than it was in the 90s. The league kp played in is the 2nd best in the world, he was contributing as a 17 year old against grown men. If kp went to duke or kentucky, and just matched (even though logic dictates he would have exceeded) his acb production, he would have been the consensus number one pick, and heaven forbid he was Tyrone Porter and black, espn wouldn’t have shut up about him

  125. Hernan gomez will be a low end double double guy in the nba as well. He perfectly compliments kps game. Labyrie looks like a solid 8th or 9th guy too

  126. Well, no. Because, not to be silly here, but we live in the universe where the Knicks DID win two more games, and the ping-pong balls assigned to Minny did what they did. We do NOT live in the universe where the Knicks did NOT win two more games, and in which we have no idea how the ping-pong balls would have gone. Because that did not happen.

    In other words, you can’t postulate that “if I went left instead of went right X would have happened,” because you don’t have any knowledge of a universe in which that happened. It all could have been different, or exactly the same – but you can’t actually know.

    The lottery works by selecting a series of random numbers to deliver a specific sequence.

    Whatever team owns that sequence wins.

    The sequences are assigned by order in the standings after the season concludes. The team with the worst record gets Batch A, the team with the next worst record gets Batch B, etc.

    If we had finished with the worst record, we would have owned all the sequences in Batch A. Instead we owned all the sequences in Batch B.

    The winning selection belonged to Batch A, which was assigned to Minnesota. Had we not won those last two games, we would have owned all the sequences in Batch A, which means we would have gotten the number 1 pick.

    That’s factorial.

    Unless you’re suggesting that something in the universe might have caused an entirely different sequence to present itself depending on who owned which batch. That’s a much deeper conversation, and I’d probably want to smoke something before having it.

  127. “Ludicrous? hahahahahahahahahaha you just love those historical narratives, don’t you
    you should look at the stats from time to time”
    OK. Rookie year —
    – Wilt — 37.6pts/27.0 rebounds/game, .248 WS48
    – David Robinson — 24.3 pts/12.0 rebounds/game. .248 WS48
    – Alcindor — 28.8 pts/14.5 rebounds, .187 WS48
    – Drummond — 7.9pts/7.6 rebounds/game, .172 WS48
    You are right. Based on the stats, Drummond clearly had the best rookie year of the 4. How in the world did I miss that? Man, I wish I were as smart as you.

  128. Y’all are going down the wrong rabbit hole. Everybody take a deep breath and take a seat because many of you are not gonna like what I’m about to tell you. For the first time, I researched the ping pong ball process on NBA.com because frankly up to now I didn’t want to know the truth. I didn’t think I could handle the truth. But the truth is that had we finished last this past season we would have Towns (unless Gaines still preferred Zinger at #1 and Jax agreed).

    That’s the bad news. But there is a silver lining. I’m convinced Hawks don’t take Hardaway if he doesn’t have the game he had against them at the end of the season. So now the calculus is Zinger + Grant =? Towns? Also, I was the first on this board – and I believe maybe anywhere – to say I would take Towns over Okafor (back in October time frame). In the thread GoNYGo linked above, I wrote that Towns was the only sure thing in the draft. All that said, if Zinger develops a really effective post-up game, I believe he will be better than Towns. And I’m never gonna bet against Porzingod especially after that Hakeem shake he dropped on Charlotte the other night and the breakneck pace at which he is moving along the learning curve. He’s like the Borg, assimilating all the knowledge and experience of his opponents. Why I even noticed an uptick in his cockiness after that Kobe meeting.

    We now return you to the Whack-A-Mole Whack-A-Jowles show already in progress.

  129. In the alternate reality where the Knicks pick #1 overall, isn’t there a legitimate chance that Phil picks Okafor and we spend the next decade watching Towns lead a Lakers team to glory?

  130. Were Cauley Stein’s numbers really that much better than Kristaps’?
    – Stein’s college rebounding numbers were closer to Amare Stoudemire than Chandlers
    – Stein never put up a TS% over 60 in college
    – Stein is 2 years older than Kristaps
    – Stein had the foot injury
    Saying that Stein was the better or safer pick really only relies on the bias that NCAA players are surer bets than Euro players. In his last year in Europe Kristaps advanced numbers really don’t seem that much different from Stein’s last year in the NCAA, despite Kristaps being younger and playing in a better league.

  131. @137 –

    If Justise Winslow is the best player in the NBA in 3 years and Zinger is finalizing his divorce from one of the Kardashians from his rehab center, did Phil make a good pick?

    Only if he had traded him for an all-star and two high draft picks before he started dating her.

    @148 –

    The problem is that nobody gives a crap to watch foreign leagues. So every time one is drafted, everybody hold their breaths like it’s disaster waiting to happen.

    Not everybody – only the ones that don’t. What we’re seeing is that those who look towards Europe and the rest of the world for talent are going to reap the benefits on the cheap.

  132. On what basis would winslow be the best player from his draft class never-ending the nba in 3 years? That’s patented nyk self loathing syndrome. It’s amazing how hard it is for this fan base to accept something good happened for them and that kp is legit

  133. On what basis would winslow be the best player from his draft class never-ending the nba in 3 years? That’s patented nyk self loathing syndrome.

    It’s what’s known as a hypothetical question.

  134. All I know is if we had gotten #2 or #3 in the draft and picked Russell, the media would be on a bloodthirsty feeding frenzy, every Porzingis highlight would be like a punch to the gut and Phil would be in hiding (oh, wait, he is anyway)

    Glad we don’t live in that alternate universe..

  135. Melo to the Heat for Deng, Anderson, WINSLOW, and Tyler Johnson. Heat go for it while Wade can still walk and we get set up for the future. Deng and Anderson $ comes off the books next year. Go easy on me…

  136. Like most, I thought Towns was the obvious #1 and wouldn’t be available. I was never excited by Okafor or Russel and still am not. Given that, my preference was for WCS, Winslow, or Mudiay. They all seemed a safer bet than Porzingis who I thought might be weak on D and rebounding till he filled out. I’m happy as hell he’s proving me wrong.

    I hope Towns and KP come close to all the lofty projections; future greats from the same draft class that dual each other in big moments.

    Whether KP gets there or not I give the Knicks an A+ in the draft for hitting the KP, +Grant/-THJ, Willy H trifecta.

  137. Kp is outperforming wcs in every stat except tos and fg% . So thcj, is just being ridiculous saying wcs is the best rookie not named kat

  138. Unless you’re suggesting that something in the universe might have caused an entirely different sequence to present itself depending on who owned which batch.

    More or less.

  139. @160 hypothetical a can be used to illustrate any point since they aren’t bound by logic or reality. What IF kp grows 3 more inches and shoots 90 percent from the floor? See how easy saying absurd things makes it to state a case?

  140. Kp is outperforming wcs in every stat except tos and fg% . So thcj, is just being ridiculous saying wcs is the best rookie not named kat

    And blocks, and steals, and Porzingis is more foul prone so far. And let’s be real-you can’t just hand wave away the fact that so far Kristaps has shot terribly. His shot looks great, he’s generally taken shots in the flow of the offense, so I’m optimistic that he’s going to get better as the year goes on and as his career goes on, but the ball isn’t going through the hoop enough yet (and that’s okay!). If that happens, and his rebounding so far is legit-holy shit, you’ve got yourself a player. But over these 12 games-which are only 12 games-you can make a decent argument that WCS has performed better than Porzingis has.

  141. @160 hypothetical a can be used to illustrate any point since they aren’t bound by logic or reality. What IF kp grows 3 more inches and shoots 90 percent from the floor? See how easy saying absurd things makes it to state a case?

    Nah

  142. No, zingers is getting more blocks and steals per game also. Don’t give me the pertinent minute crap because on a barren kings team is wcs was that good he’d play 25 a night. Kats turnovers are virtually identical to kps and no one says boo. Rookie bits are foil prone, that’s he’s never fouled out shows how smart he is and that his fouls won’t be an issue. Derrick Coleman said, you get 5 fouls a game, use thrm. I have no problem with aggression mistakes from a 19 year old 73 big who attacks the basket

  143. Gallo’s actual and Willy H’s projected value show they are getting savvy in their use of foreign and D leagues for talent development. Even though I’m not excited individually by Early, Thomas, Trice, Atkins, Thanasis, Saunders, Summers, Jimmer, or Labeyrie, I’m pleased that they are gathering lots of hungry guys who might be on the cusp to see if another surprise like Gallo emerges.

  144. @167 kp has OUTSHOT dirk thus. Most euros struggle ftom deep 1st year in the nba, calderon,stojakovic,dirk, vujacic all sucker from three as rookies and went on to be very good 3 point shooters. Kp is missing shots but he gets to the line a lot, which is a few “misses” a night. I’m not disregarding his “struggle” just aware that most rookies,particularly euros need a year just to learn the American game. And in 12 games kp seems to have a great understanding of the game and desire to get better.

    If you honestly believe stein is a better rookie, shred your nba fan card, because you don’t understand the game.

  145. @170 I think thanasis will be 1.5 tips under Bruce bowen as a man defender,he has great length, a great motor and understands subtle nuances of the game.

  146. @dred perhaps handing in your fan card is too harsh, preemptive apolofy, I have passionate debates and sometimes get carried away. I still cannot believe anyone is trying to argue wcs over kp. It’s not there statistically,via eye test or any other way

  147. If you think I’m going to praise Jackson for drafting an unknown European talent (and I’m repeating myself here) after a few dozen professional games and some workouts, you’re out of your fucking mind. The draft is a crapshoot, but especially with overseas players. The guy chose to play 4-9 offsuit and ended up with a full house. Wow! Good job, Jax!

    If you think a 7’3″ guy with excellent athleticism, a 7’6″ wingspan, highly developed shooting mechanics, demonstrable shotblocking skills, and what seems to have been a universally lauded work ethic and attitude is 4/9 offsuit, then i think you are nuts.

    Even if you are right in that it was risky pick, you must not understand the concept of “pot odds”. While we’re going with the poker analogy, this guy’s makeup and physical qualities were the equivalent of A/10 of hearts – and on the flop two more hearts came up. Odds are still against you that one of the turn/river cards will be another heart, but if it does, you basically win. And we’re winning.

  148. Kp6:

    Friendly tip here: people are more likely to respond to your longer posts if your punctuation and capitalization make those posts easier to read.

    Also, you should read up on the Four Factors, per-minute stats and all-in-one stats because we talk (and debate) about them at length on this website.

    http://www.burntorangenation.com/2011/10/19/2464697/advanced-basketball-statistics-understanding-possession-estimation

    tl;dr

    TS% tells you how well a player shoots from the entire field. FG% does not account for the opportunity cost in taking a 2-pointer instead of a 3-pointer. TS% also factors in the ability of the player to convert FTA opportunities.

    Floor shooting, rebounding, turnovers and FTM/FGA (free throw efficiency relative to shots taken) can account for team wins with a high degree of accuracy. When we’re not arguing about whether Carmelo’s contract is merely bad *or* absolutely atrocrious, we’re usually arguing over how a team comes to win a basketball game, usually by making ex post facto explanations of these four factors.

    And lastly, per-game stats don’t tell us much about a player’s production. Why? Because a player who has 15 rebounds per game might be playing 48 minutes, whereas a player who played 5 minutes per game but grabs 5 rebounds would be grabbing more rebounds per opportunity.

    Keep posting, but for the love of god, put a space after your commas and periods.

  149. If you think a 7’3? guy with excellent athleticism, a 7’6? wingspan, highly developed shooting mechanics, demonstrable shotblocking skills, and what seems to have been a universally lauded work ethic and attitude is 4/9 offsuit, then i think you are nuts.

    Even if you are right in that it was risky pick, you must not understand the concept of “pot odds”. While we’re going with the poker analogy, this guy’s makeup and physical qualities were the equivalent of A/10 of hearts – and on the flop two more hearts came up. Odds are still against you that one of the turn/river cards will be another heart, but if it does, you basically win. And we’re winning.

    Maybe so. And I am glad we ended up seeing him in a Knicks unform, but that doesn’t make the pick “great” after the fact. It means that Jackson gambled and won. I’m glad that we are hearing all of these things about his work ethic, but anecdotes like that do not elevate the selection to a conservative gamble.

  150. Also, I was the first on this board – and I believe maybe anywhere – to say I would take Towns over Okafor (back in October time frame).

    I don’t have any proof, but I think I was right along with you. I’ve never liked Okafor and was always high on Towns even at the beginning of last NCAA season. My friends thought I was crazy when I told them I would have Towns over Mudiay or Okafor (ranked #2 and #1 at the time.)

    I think thanasis will be 1.5 tips under Bruce bowen as a man defender,he has great length, a great motor and understands subtle nuances of the game.

    LMAO

    I disagree with Jowles–you should just stop posting, KP6.

  151. Are Winslow’s defensive metrics solid cause if not he has been a pretty bad player so far. His offensive numbers are horrible.

  152. THCJ — any chance you gonna be at the Knicks – Blazers game on 12/12? Would definitely be trippy for me to put a face to Knickerblogger’s resident antagonist.

    Alternatively, would just be nice to meet some Knicks fans out here in the PNW!

    Sincerely,
    your secret admirer

  153. @BigBlueAl

    Wins lows defensive metrics have been excellent. I’m on mobile right now but nyloncalculus had a really good article about all the rooks I think last Friday or maybe the one before that. Winslow had the highest net rating. Grant, KP and WCS fared very well also.

  154. This made me chuckle from ESPN.:
    “Sixth man Corey Brewer, who has seen his minutes fluctuate under McHale, is 1-for-11 from 3-point range during the past five games. He is coming off his best game though, going 4-for-14 from the field with 11 points in the loss to Boston on Monday.”

  155. Early prediction: melos has his highest fg percentage tonight. He tends to step it up against great players

  156. I believe a slice of pizza from artichoke packs more calories per ounce than any foodstuff on earth.

    That’s classic JR. What a kuucklehead but on some level I love it.

  157. @134 — hitting on 17 might be a great bet if the dealer is showing a 10 and you’ve been counting cards and are confident that the only cards in the deck are 4s or lower. In other words, if you have superior knowledge compared to the rest of us shlubs who are merely guessing what cards are left. So, if counting cards is the equivalent of great scouting, lots of research, interviews and a great basketball mind (we tend to forget that Jackson knows more about basketball than we do), betting on “some dude none of us has seen play” (quoting SAS and parphrasing THCJ) might actually be an excellent gamble.

  158. Friendly tip here: people are more likely to respond to your longer posts if your punctuation and capitalization make those posts easier to read.

    Also, you should read up on the Four Factors, per-minute stats and all-in-one stats because we talk (and debate) about them at length on this website.

    This was a nicer response than I might’ve given. No need to break out the bleach but his posts have been pretty unpleasant.

  159. If we accept the post-draft media reports as largely true, then here’s what we know happened leading up to draft night:

    1) Jax has made just one front office hire: Clarence Gaines Jr., whom he worked with in Chicago and whose opinion he reportedly values more highly than anyone else on the Knicks scouting staff.

    2) Jax assigned this most trusted adviser the job of going to Europe last winter and personally scouting Porzingis.

    3) Gaines sent Jax a text from Europe saying that he rated KP higher than anyone else in this draft class and that he would take him even with the first overall pick.

    4) The Knicks brass was not as high on KP as Gaines. Steve Mills went on record after the draft and said that the team would have taken Towns or Okafor had they drafted first or second.

    5) Jax has also admitted that he had attempted to trade down out of the fourth overall spot to try and pick up additional assets. No word on how far he was looking to trade down, the teams he had been talking to, and which players he might have targeted had such a deal gone down.

    So, yes, there was quite a bit of luck involved in the selection of KP. Had the Knicks gotten the second overall pick, then Okafor would have been selected instead. Had Jackson been successful in his attempts to trade down, then KP likely would have been off the board by the time the Knicks were on the clock.

    That said, it’s also incorrect to paint the pick as completely lucky, either. You don’t send your most trusted adviser off to Europe to follow some random 7’3 kid around. That move suggests that Porzingis was already under heavy consideration by the Knick brass. And when said adviser comes back with such a glowing report, it won’t be easily dismissed. Based on these reports, it seems fair to say that Jax was a lot more certain about KP as a prospect than most here had (or could have) been – but that he, too, may also have underestimated just how great he might turn out to be.

  160. I think Jax deserves some credit. Some luck involved too no doubt. There always is.

    There will be a game thread folks, just not sure who is going to post it. Let’s see if BC stands ready but will put one up if not….

  161. Yeah, there’s luck involved with everything. You still have to make the actual pick and Jackson did it, so he deserves the credit.

  162. THCJ — any chance you gonna be at the Knicks – Blazers game on 12/12? Would definitely be trippy for me to put a face to Knickerblogger’s resident antagonist.

    Alternatively, would just be nice to meet some Knicks fans out here in the PNW!

    Sincerely,
    your secret admirer

    Actually, yes. I was on Stubhub today. I’ll let you know if I end up pulling the trigger.

  163. Jowles, is you trippin’ agin?

    BS point #1: WCS was far less risky than KP. Even if true, there was substantial risk. The foot and the defensive rebounding were two red flags. But to be fair, I liked him and think he will be a DPOY candidate soon.

    BS point #2: Jackson “lucked” into Porzingis. That’s a total crock. Bottom line is, when he was on the clock, there were at least 7 other players that a GM could have defended selecting there: Hezonja, WCS, Winslow, Mudiay, Johnson for sure, and Kaminsky or Turner, maybe even Lyles.

    Phil could have gotten fleeced in a trade down to get an asset plus a shot of one of those guys, but he held out and kept the pick when the right deal didn’t come along. This was a conscious choice made by one of the most brilliant basketball minds ever, based on trusting the advice of his most trusted adviser. Every fucking one of these guys, as well as the first 3 picks, is a huge gamble.

    Your strategy of going with 3-4 yr college players as a way of avoiding 20 yo crap shoots is sound and defensible, but it’s not any more sound than a GM taking a studied, calculated risk based on the best information he has, combined with his instincts and long experience. If Phil thought that the kid had a lot in common with Pau Gasol and thinks his work ethic, IQ, makes it more likely that he will hit a home run than strike out, if he sees the makings of a generational player, whereas he sees in the others a lower ceiling, is it luck when he goes with his gut? The same gut that has achieved more success in managing basketball personnel than anyone who has ever lived? Isn’t that why Dolan is paying him $12 million per?

    As to the poker analogies, Phil was essentially counting cards, so normal odds didn’t apply. And it looks like he hit on a winner, not by luck, but by careful, calculated consideration.

  164. This was a conscious choice made by one of the most brilliant basketball minds ever, based on trusting the advice of his most trusted adviser.

    Wait. Are you talking about the Kwame Brown acquisition, or the Porzingis pick?

  165. Your strategy of going with 3-4 yr college players as a way of avoiding 20 yo crap shoots is sound and defensible, but it’s not any more sound than a GM taking a studied, calculated risk based on the best information he has, combined with his instincts and long experience.

    This appeal to authority stuff is total fucking bullshit. If you still believe this after years of seeing a basketball franchise make comically inept decisions like the Curry, Melo and Bargnani trades, I just don’t know what to tell you. I really don’t.

Comments are closed.