SNY.com: Knicks, Marcus Morris have strong mutual interest in reaching free agency agreement this summer

But it’s worth noting that at least one team in touch with the Knicks recently was left with the impression that Morris and New York have strong mutual interest in reaching an agreement in free agency this summer, per SNY sources.

This really needs a Mr. Bill “Oh Noooooo” GIF.

Hey when you get a chance to sign a journeyman forward with a .090 career WS48 to a market value extension that covers his age 31-34 seasons you gotta just jump at that chance. Who knows when an opportunity like that will come along again.

I’d be interested in talking to Pills and trying to understand how they think signing Marcus Morris to an extension helps them convince Dolan not to fire them.

It’s on NBC so you can get an antenna and watch without cable.

Not gonna lie: I forgot you could do this and don’t even know how it would work on a modern tv. But it reminded me of those little dials that you would have to adjust on a B&W TV to make the picture more clear, and that made me happy. I want one of those TVs again.

Not trading Morris for a cup of coffee is understandable.
But signing him to an albatross won’t be cool.
Only trading him next season for something meaningful will justify not trading him right now but that’s pretty risky shit…

Do you feel lucky punk “GM”?

According to league sources, there’s a fear inside the Knicks front office that either Perry or Mills will be fired soon after the trade deadline.

This is such a staple of organization. The obvious thing to do would be to have someone with a long term view in place before the deadline, not after.

It’s just like how we let Phil draft Frank before we fired him.

Timing is everything. It’s not that hard to figure this stuff out.

I’ll just note that in the past we’ve often heard tidbits like this and written them off as leverage plays, or incomplete information (maybe we’re taking on Bargnani/Rose as a salary dump, etc.), or anything other than what they turn out to be: unambiguously awful moves.

So, I don’t think he’s getting traded. It sounds like these chucklefucks will be fired though, so whether or not he’s re-signed comes down to whatever the next dumbass thinks about him.

Not trading Morris for a cup of coffee is understandable.

Repeat after me: there is absolutely no justification whatsoever for not trading Morris for the best offer.

Seriously, none at all. When it inevitably doesn’t happen we’ll see a ton of attempts to justify it, as if Dolan’s Razor doesn’t make it clear that it’s as simple as a very stupid team doing a very stupid thing.

or thinks any less of them.

He literally said that Jae Crowder is soft like a woman. Because women are soft. Because women are weaker than men. Do you not see the mental gymnastics you’re doing to tell us that the sky is pink?

This is such a staple of organization. The obvious thing to do would be to have someone with a long term view in place before the deadline, not after.

It’s just like how we let Phil draft Frank before we fired him.

I thought I posted this very sentiment in the last thread, must have forgotten to click send. This is 100% the case.

A competent owner would have stopped evaluating success by 10-game stretches (an utterly ridiculous concept except it probably mirrors his quarterly-earnings outlook in the corporate world) and looked at the SRS, or the EWL, or hell, their basic W-L record at any point in the season and fired Pills immediately.

Then he would have installed a smart, analytics-minded GM/POBO with a five-year plan: years 1 and 2 to clear the books of dead weight and draft busts, years 3 and 4 to develop a rising young roster assembled in years 1 and 2, and year 5 to be firmly in the playoffs with a sustainable future, Bird rights for everyone moving forward, and cap room/future draft assets to bring in the “final pieces” when available.

So, I don’t think he’s getting traded. It sounds like these chucklefucks will be fired though, so whether or not he’s re-signed comes down to whatever the next dumbass thinks about him.

And if it does happen, you will hear some boilerplate front-office-speak about culture. That’s how we’ll know to abandon the team forever.

People on twitter are making a big deal of this being the 1 year anniversary of the Porzingis deal. I still feel pretty ok about it.

What are they saying about it? Are they talking about how he cut his usage by 4.5 FGA per 100 poss. and is still setting a career-worst in shooting efficiency? And how the Mavs have to pay him for four more years after this one?

If the Knicks had traded him for a single 2028 2nd-rounder because that was the only available offer out there, they would have won the trade.

The object isn’t to win trades, it’s to maximize the return on (valuable) assets.

I just don’t get it…

Can’t Dolan put one of us in charge? That would improve the team immensely.

Repeat after me: there is absolutely no justification whatsoever for not trading Morris for the best offer.

it sucks I’ve been saying this for years with our various expiring decent vets (like O’Quinn) and then we never trade them and the FO says something about not getting good enough offers. . .something is better than nothing. Marcus Morris’s contract expires at the end of the year and the Knicks have no reason to win games. He is of no value to this team.

hopefully jimmy calls mckinsey for advice…even the first year associate (who they would use to service this very important client) over there will give him the right answer on what to do with morris (because they would google this sight for guidance and see what the popular opinion is)…

Imagine being so stupid that you think locking up a 31 year old player long term is more important than collecting assets because said 31 year old is the (2nd) best player on a team that’s going to win 22 games. The abject stupidity of it the idea is staggering though I guess the joke’s on us since we’re all rooting for this team.

I don’t understand how there’s so much debate over Morris’ sexist comments. He clearly wanted to call Crowder a bitch and/or a pussy but didn’t want to get fined so he called Crowder a woman/womanly because being/acting like a woman instead of a man is a bad thing. He clearly wasn’t comparing Crowder’s physical strength to that of a woman’s and anyone arguing that is disgustingly dishonest.

@8 As far as I know, rabbit ear antennas don’t really exist anymore. My antenna is a flat square, maybe 1’x1′, that I hung near a window and plugs into my TV via a coaxial cable. It works pretty well and seems to get a pretty good signal on most stations though I have nothing to compare it to. I don’t watch a ton of live TV but it’s nice to have when I want to watch NBA, NFL, or MLB playoff games or the few network shows that I enjoy. Everything else I use streaming services for.

@15 Look in the upper right corner of the screen, you should see “Howdy, Owen”. Click on that, scroll down Profile Picture near the bottom of the screen, and click on the Gravitar link to change your avatar.

I actually thought the words Morris used were substitute for his desired “faggot,” but yeah maybe it was only “bitch/pussy.” Hard to tell for sure, but the former would have gotten him in massive trouble. In any event, yeah, the words were substitutes for something else.

I managed to figure the gravatar thing out! Woohoo!

not working for me for some reason

That should be a bannable offense THCJ.

Halliburton is good at everything but drawing fouls, right?

I wouldn’t mind screwing up our draft position by winning meaningless games on the backs of our 1 and done vets if it means we draft Haliburton. I don’t know what his ultimate ceiling is but he has a high floor which is nice considering all the low floor prospects we’ve drafted.

Begley:

Frank Ntilikina said his groin ailment acted up prior to tip-off on Wednesday’s game against Memphis. He said he’s feeling better. His status for the Pacers game is uncertain, based on how he feels Saturday

it sucks I’ve been saying this for years with our various expiring decent vets (like O’Quinn) and then we never trade them and the FO says something about not getting good enough offers. . .something is better than nothing. Marcus Morris’s contract expires at the end of the year and the Knicks have no reason to win games. He is of no value to this team.

I do think Morris is probably the most pronounced version of this we’ve ever had though. O’Quinn for example was liked by a lot of people on this board, but it’s pretty clear the league doesn’t value him for whatever reason – he’s really struggled to get PT throughout his career despite consistently good stats when he plays and he hasn’t climbed the salary scale at all. Although it seemed like there should have been decent interest in him at that deadline, there really may not have been, and I doubt they would’ve gotten more than a low second rounder for him.

Morris on the other hand really is the perfect test case for this. The team is awful, he’s expiring, he doesn’t have full bird rights, his next contract is likely to be poor value outside of a contending team, and absolutely everyone agrees that there’s a first round pick (or equivalent value) available for him. You will never, ever see a more cut and dried case.

well i wouldn’t say everything but he does have a problem getting to the line which is indicative of a lot of things….

i generally hate theringer’s draft coverage but this piece on haliburton earlier in the year was really well done…

he really is a lot like lonzo ball except tyrese has taken a different path to where he is now…. he’s an analytical favorite because he’s always been wildly efficient but inching his way into more usage while maintaining some of that efficiency… sometimes those guys turn into kawhi.. a lot of times they’re just jose calderon… or if you’re lonzo … struggle to get to those same efficient opportunities you got in college… longer 3p line and less transition buckets…

It seems like a very simple concept.

You have an asset in one hand, that will undoubtedly be gone at a certain point if you do nothing with it. You can either trade it to someone else for a tangible return that you can either a) use as an asset via drafting that is now an “asset” for at least 3 years (that you can then trade again for more assets if it turns out badly!) or b) trade these newly acquired shinies for more assets, and you guessed it, that you would’ve gotten nothing for! I would entrust my 3 year old niece to understand this concept and make the right decision.

,What does Morris signing you long term get? On a 50+ win core, sure. but on a ~20 win team? I am not sure why the “when” to add these guys to your roster is such a difficult concept the last 20 years (not to mention most of them were mediocre to shit).

I used to love Calderon. He was my fantasy basketball white whale. Never missed a ft, never committed a turnover, and lots of threes, (also rarely healthy.) But that guy couldn’t guard a Pomeranian in transition. He was really really bad on defense.

We have no idea what kind of offers are on the table for Morris, but we have to take money back. So if we take back an expiring contract (which is what I’m sure management wants), it doesn’t seem a like a shoe in we are also going to get much back in terms of “pick” value.

No Doncic tonight. He’s already breaking down from dragging Kristaps all over the court.

Meaningless Wins are Losses undercover.

Would you trade Morris for a 2220 second round pick ?

Fixed it. There I am in all my glory.

Yeah, Morris is playing out of his goddamn mind, and we are still an utter embarrassment. I do think he would be a genuinely useful piece for the Clips or Heat or some other teams that are much better than we are, but in this environment, he’s doing nothing to in any way make us attractive to difference-making free agents. Which he will very much not be this summer.

Oh, I have no doubt they still believe they can acquire a superstar via trade or free agency. That is how they’ve always operated, despite ample evidence to the contrary. They gotta go.

He literally said that Jae Crowder is soft like a woman. Because women are soft. Because women are weaker than men. Do you not see the mental gymnastics you’re doing to tell us that the sky is pink?

Being “soft” is a negative in basketball.

If you ask me, it’s a positive in many other areas.

Apparently he thinks women are softer than men in general, but again, that does not necessarily translate into hating them, thinking they are inferior, thinking they should make less money, thinking they are all soft, thinking that WNBA players soft, or that all female business leaders and politicians are soft etc… It means it’s bad in basketball. It translates into thinking the “average” man is different than the “average” woman (but without one being superior or inferior)

What makes it a stupid thing to say is that these generalizations are not true for all individuals and some people get offended by them. So even if you think men “on average” are stronger and tougher than women “on average” just don’t say it in a way that makes someone feel inferior in some specific way as he did.

Now you can disagree.

I’m confused if you agree with this sentiment or just explaining Pills thought process. If it’s just the latter then disregard the below.

Marcus Morris is a replacement level player by most metrics (i am probably being a tad too harsh here) AND the eye test , who happens to be having a career year from 3, but that is retreating by the game so the jury is still out on that. Portis by all accounts has similar 3-point numbers (career) and nobody seems to want to resign him. At least none of us do. He’s a below average rebounder, poor passer, and definitely not a leader in the locker room. That isn’t worth 15 mil a year on a 20 win team. i’d rather have two in the bush than nothing in the hand.

If i’m a free agent and care about the quality of my teammates, i cringe to think that i would want to join a team where 15 million of my cap is spent on a ball stopping vet on the wrong side of 30 with depreciating stats. They shouldn’t be signing the Morris’ of the world. They should be taking flyers/keeping the Kornet’s of the world at the same efficiency, younger, and at a fraction of the cost.

If they fail to trade him there’s still hope….
Signing Morris to the right contract makes him a nice tradeable asset.
Right Contract in my book means no more than 10m per yr and no more than 3yrs.

Signing Morris to the right contract makes him a nice tradeable asset.

Bro, you think someone’s going to send more 3 years from now at $10M than this year at $15M?

He’s 30 right now. This contract is tradeable and has absolutely no purpose for the Knicks’ future except to bring back more assets.

They are a team that will be lucky to crack 25 wins. They need to trade. Now.

I don’t get what you mean on the first paragraph THCJ.
The hard part is for Mook to accept this kind of contract.
Not to trade it.
Mook ain’t dead yet. He’s still playing competent hero/playoff ball.

If they take back an expiring contract for Morris they are just going to put another useless player back into it the space next year because that’s all that will come to a bad team like NY.

If they get a pick with an expiring contract, they are going to select a player that’s most likely not going to be productive any time soon, put him into cap space, and then use the rest of the cap space for another useless player.

That’s why in my opinion the correct move is to use any asset we get in combination with the Dallas picks (or something like that) to move up in the draft or trade for player that can have a real impact. We don’t need to keep playing musical chairs with role players and late 1st and 2nd round picks whose expected long term value in another role player. We need impact players, but unfortunately for us, part of that is being good enough to attract them.

dang, a bunch of the cool logos are locked out of that gravitar thing…

you know, my first instinct was just going with a naked pic – of me…they say you should always go with that first instinct…

Does anyone actually doubt that this team would have been worse off if they had simply traded the #3 for the #8 and #17 from Atlanta and taken Hayes and Clarke?

I disagreed with the Knox pick, but in that case we are not talking about the correct strategy for the rebuild. We are talking about the competency of the selection. IMO, it was a poor selection.

I liked Clarke a lot and would have gladly given up a Dallas pick and something else try to get him. However, the reason Clarke went lower than RJ is not because of how good they were expected to be this season. It’s because one is 23 and one is 19. Clarke may be more ready to be productive now, but most people believe RJ will eventually be the better player. It’s a choice between greater present value and greater future value. And that future value is expected be better by enough to make the wait worthwhile relative to having Clarke. That’s the explanation. I would not have traded down for Clarke (I had no opinion on Hayes and knew nothing about him). I’m fine with the RJ pick even if the payoff is years away.

The reason I would trade UP is because we need real impact players. You need those legitimate #1 and #2 option type players to contend. You are most likely to get them among the top 5 players in the draft, free agency, or in a trade that includes picks. But free agency is kind of dead for us until we get better and even trades are difficult when the player has leverage.

Can’t Dolan put one of us in charge? That would improve the team immensely.

Makes no difference at this point. Morris can’t be traded because Dolan doesn’t want to trade him. Pills will be gone, Dolan wants to resign him.

In good news, I won 2 bucks! I guess whoever was playing Portland covered, a couple weeks ago? I need to find an OTB, Turfway is running. On a roll, baby!!

I would have taken Clarke 8th in that scenario, and if the rest of the draft had played out the same way (probably wouldn’t have, but let’s pretend) probably Alexander-Walker 17th. He sucks though.

Capela and Chandler out for Houston, their tallest player is Sebolosha at 6’6”

Porzingis will have a field day, and all will be right in Strat world.

Capela and Chandler out for Houston, their tallest player is Sebolosha at 6’6”

Porzingis will have a field day, and all will be right in Strat world.

I’m not so sure how much of a positive that will be for him. He can’t post small players up. That’s a major limitation in his game. You can put smaller quicker defenders on him. That drags him outside defensively and away from his rim protection ability and makes it tougher on him defensively on the perimeter. If a team uses that strategy, the big man is supposed to punish the smaller guy inside so much that they have to abandon that strategy. But he can’t do that, at least yet.

I do know one thing, he plays much better with Brunson than Doncic on the floor.

That makes no sense to me because Doncic is a good playmaker and takes the defensive heat away from KP that he had in NY that last year as the #1 option with Hardaway #2 (and often hurt) . Obviously he’s going to get more touches/shots without Doncic on the floor because he becomes the #1 option. He’ll also tend to get more rebounds because Doncic is a bit of a stat stuffer with rebounds (perhaps strategically to lead the break), but it seems Porzingis is also more efficient without Doncic (I haven’t actually seen the data on that just the plus/minus lineup data). Maybe it’s easier for him to get into a rhythm with more shots. Maybe it’s random so far. No idea.

@85

I haven’t looked at any college ball or stats yet and have no idea where we will be drafting or if anyone will want to trade with us.

I don’t think having Lee and Hardaway on the books is any worse than the guys we have now. Lee is gone after this year just like our older mercenary players and Hardaway is playing well and is only on for 1 more year after this year like Randle. It set us back originally, but at this stage it would be mostly a non event.

The real question is what KP becomes next year and in the years to follow. There’s no question his struggles so far this year are related to the layoff. He’s stronger, rebounding better, still blocking and altering shots, moving well, etc… He just can’t throw the ball in the ocean from anywhere, even the FT line. That screams layoff. He’s an injury prone mess, but the talent is still there to be a very good two way player and key piece on a championship team.

kyrie is having a ridiculous game

We’re 47 games into the season so I dunno about the lay-off excuse for KP. You think you’d be getting into a groove after 47 games but then again the guy falls apart every January like clockwork so who can really say. Maybe the rust is gone and he’s doing his annual fall off the cliff thing.

Also Kyrie Irving finishes the game against the Bulls with 54 on 23 shots, holy shit.

Owen I don’t know if Zion’s going to get the minutes.

@92

Personally, I predicted a bad start and thought he’d eventually start rounding into form around now. But then he missed 10 games with right knee soreness and came back with a laughably bad performance (4/17). So who knows.

He’s been shooting worse in virtually every way despite getting easier looks (FT line too). He rarely gets doubled anymore like he was in NY that last year and Dallas has changed his shot distribution away from long 2s to more 3s. So the conditions and shot selection are in place to be more efficient, but he’s been less efficient than even in his rookie year, let alone his 3rd year when they were doubling him and he was totally lost about how to handle it. I’m not buying he’s worn down. I think an almost 2 year layoff is just much tougher to come back from than the typical long injury and he’s made of glass so he’s always battling injuries. It took Hayward awhile also and this was way longer.

@97

This was the play I was referring to, the ball is practically behind the board and somehow, while in mid jump, he brings it back and scores with the other hand. It doesn’t look as cool as a huge dunk but it’s such a crazy impressive play.

Capela and Chandler out for Houston, their tallest player is Sebolosha at 6’6”

Porzingis will have a field day, and all will be right in Strat world.

Can you imagine Dirk or Ewing or Duncan against that lineup? Any chance they wouldn’t go off for 50+?

And the final score doesn’t really reflect how badly Dallas got beat. It was 101-85 after 3.

the thing I’ve found the most impressive since first seeing zion at duke is that he doesn’t force the action…he plays a beautiful team game…really high basketball IQ and perfect personality for making his teammates on the court better…

According to the NY Post, Dolan had a conversation with the mother of the teen, who was ousted the other night. Imagine having ten minutes to speak to Jimmy D and try to convince him to fire Mills.

I think an almost 2 year layoff is just much tougher to come back from than the typical long injury and he’s made of glass so he’s always battling injuries. It took Hayward awhile also and this was way longer.

You’re really playing mental gymnastics about this timeline. It’s a flat out lie to consistently state he had a two year layoff.

Porzingis went down on Feb 6 and was practicing with the Mavs 13 months later. And the entire NBA was “laid off” for 10-12 of those months.

Gordon Hayward was injured in preseason and came back about a year later at the start of a basketball season. The number of months between games isn’t the critical variable here. He went straight from a devastating injury into real live NBA action with a bone that was recently healed. Of course he struggled upon his return

Porzingis had a much less traumatic injury. And they pampered him like a baby by giving him 6 extra months to rest and recover and build strength. By all accounts he was able to play basketball for Dallas last year, within 13-14 months after his injury. There was no need to hold him back other than to *aid* his recovery and make it *easier* to not struggle like Hayward.

You keep saying that you can’t figure out this or that about him…. I think the key to the puzzle you’re overlooking is that he’s not good.

There is literally no evidence that long layoffs take months to recover from. Kevin Durant may never be the same, but I guarantee you it won’t take him to February of 2021 to have a league average TS%. Steph Curry is not going to take until the next ASB to regain his shooting touch. Good players shake rust off pretty quickly. Porzingis isn’t rusty. He’s mediocre.

When he’s shooting around .510 TS% next year I hope you’re ready to eat crow

When he’s shooting around .510 TS% next year I hope you’re ready to eat crow

It’s certainly possible he will be a worse shooter at age 25 than he was at 20, 21, and 22, despite better coaching, better teammates, a better PG, and better shot selection. But if he is, it will be related to injuries and/or other issues besides the talent he showed at the start. Some players never reach their potential due to injury or off court issues. That’s what NY management (and guys like you are hoping for so you don’t feel badly about the trade). I’d way rather see 5-6 years of dynamic basketball from a Doncic/KP one two punch with Doncic the #1 option on offense and KP providing space for Doncic to use his extraordinary talent to get to the rim and finish and cleaning up his messes near the rim with defensive help while adding in enough as a 2nd option. They are a fun team to watch on offense.

Lol

Porzingis is a major liability against small lineups. He does not have the reactions or lateral quickness to defend the perimeter and last night was a perfect example. He had one block against a team of midgets. Since pretty much any good team in the league can throw a small lineup at him, and since he can be reasonably well defended by guys like Marcus Smart and PJ Tucker, he is going to have a hard time being a net positive on a regular basis unless he starts shooting over 40% from 3.

And during his “layoff” I wonder how hard he worked on improving his 3-point shooting. My guess is that he worked tirelessly on it from very early on in his recovery. Doesn’t seem to be paying off much. He’s not really that good from the FT line (when he gets there, which is pitifully low for a max player.) He does nothing to get teams into foul trouble.

KP is shooting around 30% from 3 ft out to the 3-point line and takes around 40 % of his shots in that range. That is god-awful.

We’ve done many, many stupid things, but getting two first round picks for a $31M AAV guy with a .531 career TS% sure as hell isn’t one of them. Poisoning Porzingis’ perception of the Knicks is the only good thing Phil Jackson did for this team.

And you guys can keep saying this and it’s true … but entirely incomplete. The stupid part was not coming close to getting his actual market value in return.

But Curry, Durant, and Porzingis are all max players. Via his contract, people *are* saying he’s as good as them, and that’s the problem.

I don’t think this is true either, since there’s a max cap on salaries. I don’t really think people actually believe all max players are equally good; I’ve certainly never seen that seriously alleged by anyone.

And you guys can keep saying this and it’s true … but entirely incomplete. The stupid part was not coming close to getting his actual market value in return.

This is theoretically possible, but the trade deadline was looming, he said he would take the QO if not traded, and he was damaged goods. Personally I would have called his bluff and waited for a better deal, but I’m not super upset at the return, especially when Durant was thought by the entire world to be a legit possibility and dumping the stupidly tied-up cap spaced was a prerequisite.

I don’t think this is true either, since there’s a max cap on salaries. I don’t really think people actually believe all max players are equally good; I’ve certainly never seen that seriously alleged by anyone.

Agreed, but this is irrelevant. Your theoretical “anyone” expects that a player signed to a max contract is going to put up top-25 or so numbers. You could get close to KP’s current (and historical) production from Luke Kornet.

On another note, I wonder if Trier will be let out of the doghouse tonight with Payton out. I still think with enough reps he could be as good of a PG as anyone we roll out there. Would rather see him in the g-league than rotting on the bench.

@127 mostly agree, it’s more about our current options. With either Frank or Payton, the defense sags off. Even if Trier just does what Frank does to start, at least maybe he can create better spacing. Maybe like an Eric Gordon combo-type guard.

My main issue with KP is whether he can handle a 100-game season-playoff grind without breaking down. There is no evidence that he can do that. He already had platelet therapy in his non-surgical knee. If/when that one goes, that’s another 2-3 years of Strat excuse-making at a max salary.

Cuban ought to look into trading him to another sucker team while folks (especially in the media) still grossly overrate him.

This is a more sensible position.

Everyone including Cuban was aware of his injury history and the risks about it going forward. Dallas bet that he’d recover 100% from the surgery, that their medical staff could keep him healthy enough to be a productive player worth the salary, and that Carlisle would improve his productivity.

I don’t know what Carlisle and Cuban think privately now, but overall, their comments have been very positive about his contribution to rim protection and spacing, his ability to change his game and rebound more, and felt he was ahead of their schedule until the recent knee soreness.

I read everything.

I don’t think this is true either, since there’s a max cap on salaries. I don’t really think people actually believe all max players are equally good; I’ve certainly never seen that seriously alleged by anyone.

Thank you for understanding.

Basically you need 2-3 all stars on a team to creating a contending team depending on how good each is. That means you need 60-90 players around the league that can add a lot of wins. The problem is there are only a handful of players like James, Curry, Durant, Kawhi, Giannis, Davis, and a few others. Those guys are worth away more than the max and there is still a shortage of other highly productive difference makers. So those guys also get max contracts and are worth it because you can’t contend without them. Teams like Boston, Toronto, Indiana, and others will pay max salaries to non super elite players hoping one of the younger ones develops further or they get to add an super elite one later. That’s better than sucking every year.

There are many players in this league that are not super elite superstars that are worth max contracts because of the need and scarcity.

There are some bad ones too, but not just superstars are worth a max.

(cont. from 133)
Porzingis pretty clearly shoots terribly in the last month and half of the season, so it seems fairly obvious to me that his .395 mark that year is being propped up by him not playing that portion of the season. At the time, I hoped that that season was an indicator that his shooting was improving to elite levels. I now am of the opinion that it was a mirage for the reasons I put forth in 133. The other three seasons (including the current one) are Porzingis’ norm, not the outlier year he injured himself. If you keep expecting him to shoot .400 from 3pt range, get ready to see a lot slightly-below league average seasons.

Z-man, I understand what you mean, and I agree they have guard Trier. However, Kadeem Allen’s shooting is ok too (not as good as Trier, but you probably still have to guard him). Allen’s assists and turnovers are better do personally I would pick him. But it may be a moot point since Frank and Smith will probably share point guard duties.

We aren’t going to settle this debating it here.

KP is going to settle it on the court next year by either shooting better and staying healthier or breaking down and continuing to suck. IMHO, if he disappoints, it’s way more likely to be related to injuries than inherent talent and skill.

Have a good day.

KP has two big obstacles standing in the way of his earning that contract.

1. His body. He fatigues easily, he breaks down at the end of every season, his knee is a mess, his center of gravity is weird and he has already suffered a major injury. He’s probably never going to be a horse who can give you 2800 minutes every year.

2. Intangibles. He’s not a high-IQ player, doesn’t play much of a team game on offense. Is more of a diva type than a hardworking humble type. Takes and misses bad shots a lot. Hasn’t expanded much on his offensive game since coming into the league.

He’s a tantalizing talent, as he’s the prototype modern big in a lot of ways. Rim protector who shoots threes, that’s a good profile. So far he’s been better in theory than in practice and the sample size is starting to get pretty large.

Of course it’s a talent problem with KP, shot selection is a talent, body control, like we’ve seen with Zion, is a talent. I would argue even availability is a talent. It truly reminds me of the defense of Carmelo Anthony when people kept saying stuff like “he’s one of the most talented offensive players in the league”, or “he’s incredibly skilled”, when that really doesn’t matter for the NBA. In a vacuum a guy like Sebastian Telfair was a crazy basketball talent, but the NBA isn’t about that, it’s about turning that raw skill into on court production consistently.

I’ve seen people argue shit like oh KP is more talented than a guy like Giannis, who’s biggest asset is his physicality, and that to me is complete bullshit. Separating a metaphysical talent from actual production is how we end up with terrible contracts for players who don’t bring wins to teams, it’s why Andrew Wiggins gets a max deal and Porzingis was considered by the media and casual fans a surefire max guy.

Wiggins is a bad example because even most in the media hated him when he signed that contract, and has zero trade value at his contract. KP is more like a Harrison Barnes type, imo. Looks good, can play a big role on a winning team but doesn’t really help the team win, overrated unless you look deeper. Aaron Gordon and Zach Lavine are two other examples.

so the combination of boredom and drugs are driving my ideas. And my lovely PR fiance has been taking advantage of my limitations and pwning me on COD, so depression may be playing a part too lmao

very nice totes 🙂

hope your shoulder is feeling better soon…

Aaron Gordon and Zach Lavine are two other examples.

I’m not a big Zach Lavine fan, but he’s actually having a pretty good season on a terrible team. TS% .565 (last year .574)

He doesn’t do much else but score, but he’s not a bad player (esp. compared to our favorite Latvian)

You can rail against the all-in-one metrics all you want, but possessions are your most valuable commodity in this game. Players who use up a lot of possessions and squander a lot of them by missing shots really hurt your chances of winning. Porzingis is a possession waster. He’s reliably going to use a quarter of your possessions with poor efficiency.

Does he make some of that up on the defensive end? Sure. He’s a legit rim protector and that is valuable. But we’re talking a max contract player here, not a defensive specialist who makes $12M per year or something. $31M AAV for a guy who burns so many possessions is a bad investment.

The numbers don’t lie: 26.2 USG%, .531 TS% in his career. By comparison Andrew Wiggins’ career numbers are 25.6 USG%, .522 TS%.

And you guys can keep saying this and it’s true … but entirely incomplete. The stupid part was not coming close to getting his actual market value in return.

And you keep saying this and then not being able to back it up with a shred of evidence. If we’re talking about the post-ACL tear version of Porzingis, I’ve still seen nothing indicating there was something better out there than two firsts (even if you ignore that the salary dumps were probably worth another first and DSJ still had some value at the time).

There is a long record on this forum from the NY days of me screaming that he’s getting double teamed and is shooting way too many terrible fade away turn arounds and other terrible shots and has to learn how to handle that situation.

You’ll forgive me if I tell you this is not the kind of data I was looking for.

Oh..and @146,
She talks shit in Spanish and English. DAMMIT SHE’S IN MY HEAD NOW! lolololololololololol

And you keep saying this and then not being able to back it up with a shred of evidence. If we’re talking about the post-ACL tear version of Porzingis, I’ve still seen nothing indicating there was something better out there than two firsts (even if you ignore that the salary dumps were probably worth another first and DSJ still had some value at the time).

We don’t know what else was out there because Mills/Perry started negotiations with Dallas and the deal went down very quickly. Cuban was quoted saying that the other day. I read an article this morning where he said it was one of the quickest deals he ever did. It was reported that many other teams were interested but none were told he was available. Mills/Perry wanted cap space, DSjr, and picks.

True shooting percentage is not an all-in one0metric. Re-read this thread; has anyone cited WS48, BPM, or any other all-in-one to make the case against Porzingis? No, they have not.

His mediocre TS% was always part of the conversation, but so were the all in one metrics that imo don’t reflect his floor spacing and defensive value adequately. The conversation about his TS% has been beaten to death today and even in my last post.

According to NBA Adjusted plus minus, as terrible as he had been on offense this year, he’s still a net plus player of 1.41.

14 Kristaps Porzingis DAL 37 30.5 0.32 1.09 1.41 1.60

I will eat some humble pie if Reddish ends up an All-Star. I don’t remember him being injured at Duke though, other than at the very end of the year.

I will eat some humble pie if Reddish ends up an All-Star. I don’t remember him being injured at Duke though, other than at the very end of the year.

I believe he was battling some kind of stomach muscle issue (or something like that) all season but it was not bad enough to keep him out of games. There must still be articles out there somewhere where I read that.

I suddenly am glad that he’s not a Knick. I still think he’s an all star caliber player who will still make the 1st half numbers to garner a spot. But he would have never been what we needed him to be, and that is suddenly clearer than ever to me now. Dallas is perfect for him because they already have a lead dog. KP is the best 2nd option (when healthy) outside of what the LA teams have, and probably Houston…maybe Philly too. But..2and option is his ceiling.

I think that’s a perfectly reasonable position. It may even be generous. Even Phil said he wasn’t a #1 option going into his last year in NY. The thing is, the hardest things in basketball to get are the #1 and #2 option. That’s why teams pay up for #2 options also and that’s why Dallas wanted him even though he was coming off an injury. There’s a shortage of legitimate #1 and #2 options, especially if they can add value in non scoring ways like rim protection.

Man, if Reddish ends up being a better pro than RJB…

I know; it’s early…

https://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/knicks/ny-marcus-morris-knicks-long-term-deal-20200201-2lqkfv2zebc7hhwvghk2xp2rua-story.html

Another one of these. It makes me want to scream.

In addition to all the idiotic things he discusses he also mentions we are interested in Dennis Schroder. Who wouldn’t be the worst guard on this team but what the hell, why him?

It’s possible that the Knicks could’ve extracted more value by aggressively shopping Porzingis.

It’s also possible that this would’ve allowed word of his trade request to get out, and all of our leverage would’ve been tanked. We had RFA rights, but there are all kinds of things players can do as RFAs to present the team with matching rights with a shitty situation e.g. sign a 2 + 1, etc.

Because we’ll never know what would’ve/could’ve/should’ve happened, “did we get the absolute maximum haul possible for Porzingis?” is simply not a fair or interesting question. There is literally no way to know the answer to this in any trade, ever.

The relevant question is “did we get good value for Porzingis?” The answer as of now is yes, and then some, and then some more. You can’t look at his numbers and come to any other conclusion if you’re being honest with yourself.

Could he change that? Of course. But as I mentioned earlier, just getting back to his career figures wouldn’t do it. He would have to make rather significant improvements from that baseline. Because he’s been in the league for a while now and clearly has some issues that aren’t going away, I’m skeptical about the chances of that happening. It’s possible for sure but at the moment if you’re criticizing the trade, you’re doing so in the face of all the available evidence.

It’s also possible that this would’ve allowed word of his trade request to get out, and all of our leverage would’ve been tanked.

ESPN has refuted the official story on that (as has KP once did by saying the truth will eventually come out).

ESPN reported that KP had a meeting with Mills/Perry where they talked about his future and the future of the team. That meeting may not have been highly positive. When KP and his team got home, they found out from their own sources that he was being shopped (turned out to be Dallas). They knew nothing about that and supposedly did not ask to be traded. Given he was being shopped they put together a list of desired destinations (Dallas was not among them), but by the time they had a chance to talk to Mills/Perry the deal was already done. That’s consistent with KP’s initial reaction and what Cuban has said about how fast the deal was done.

Personally, I don’t think a player asking out (which apparently may not have even happened) would have changed the market value if there were loads teams that said they would have been interested after the fact. (which was also reported).

The only team that was not interested was the Pelicans. The Knicks were asking for Anthony Davis and the Pelicans wanted more than just KP, but ultimately both the Pelicans and Knicks could not get close because the Pelicans wanted too much and they weren’t sure KP would sign back with them in that market anyway.

The thing is, KP on his deal still has market value. He’s a tantalizing shiny object. Dallas could probably get more for him right now than they gave up. Sort of like Melo’s deal…we still got some value for him deep into that contract. So whether KP is actually worth what you can trade him for is irrelevant. Cuban picked him up on the cheap and we sold relatively low.

So whether KP is actually worth what you can trade him for is irrelevant. Cuban picked him up on the cheap and we sold relatively low.

100%

People here are projecting their own valuation of KP onto the rest of the league and assuming that the league agrees with them or that they are right and the league is wrong. The reality is the consensus here may be wrong (underestimating him), and even if it’s right, the league may disagree and he can still be traded in a better deal for Dallas.

I think I’m somewhere in the middle.

I’m above the consensus here, but way more worried about injury risk than Cuban and others in the NBA seem to be.

The thing is, KP on his deal still has market value. He’s a tantalizing shiny object. Dallas could probably get more for him right now than they gave up. Sort of like Melo’s deal…we still got some value for him deep into that contract. So whether KP is actually worth what you can trade him for is irrelevant. Cuban picked him up on the cheap and we sold relatively low.

Are you really sure anyone would now be interested in a 154M player whose “good” knee needs PRP at 24 and chucks with below league average efficiency.

The actually made a fine deal to trade KP…. the only problem as the idea was to sign real players with the added cap space and once that blew up they pivoted in the wrong direction.

If they had “rented” KP/THJr and Lee’s cap space for 2 #1 picks once the prime FA’s punted a take of 4 #1’s would have been a king’s ransom for KP for the price of one more tankathon year (which we are getting anyway sans the picks)…..

Are you really sure anyone would now be interested in a 154M player whose “good” knee needs PRP at 24 and chucks with below league average efficiency.

I’m sure Dallas is happy.

They keep talking about how much he’s adding to the team with his spacing, rim protection, and improved rebounding and don’t seem to be concerned with his shot yet at all.

We’re kicking their ass so far !

They keep talking about how much he’s adding to the team with his spacing, rim protection, and improved rebounding and don’t seem to be concerned with his shot yet at all.

Well, that settles it then.