169 thoughts to “Porizingis vs. Okafor [Video]”

  1. Too funny. I wonder who should be more annoyed by the video, Okafor or Porzingis.

    Okafor has great offensive moves down low. He looked lazy on the defense and didn’t do well having to guard Porzingis away from the hoop. He gave KP lots of trouble early but the Zinger adjusted (on his own) and figured out that he needed to front his man and deny him the ball. We were worried about Porzingis’s defense. It’s looking like that his defense is ahead of his offense. It puts a grin on my face.

    As for Ty Lawson. I’m really not happy about the DUI. Two DUI’s in a 6-month period. He also got pulled over in 2008. He also had domestic violence in 2008. This is a pattern. I can smell his breath from over here. There’s a big red flag planted on the top of his head. I would guess that he’s an alcoholic. And what’s with him video taping himself smoking a hookah on draft night? . The more I think about it, the less I want anything to do with him.

    Who else thinks that JR and Ty make a fun back-court pairing?

  2. What can I say. If I choose to believe my eyes I choose to be happy. Summer league is just a fantastic thing. So nice to be reassured right after the draft and NOT be having draft day conversations with the same conjecture all the way until camp. I worry about guys getting hurt but that can happen on the practice court as well (or in the SUV).

    I’d like to hear everyone shut up about Staps “Lack of strength”. The knee jerk, “Look at him get pushed off the post” or “Rebounding is clearly gonna be a problem until he puts on twenty pounds”. Look, if seven blocks in three games (really half games) doesn’t count as helping to get the ball back, then devote all the ink you want to it, but I don’t see why you’d allocate the energy right now. He’s gonna rebound well, and more or less depending on who he’s guarding, where he is on the floor, MPG, etc.

    On offense, I don’t think he’s shown the entire arsenal. He obviously feels like he’s got Steph Curry range. We’ll see, but the stroke looks elite and quick. And how about 29 points on 15 shots for the efficiency crowd?

    Come on, it’s a solid A as a debut. Clutch and crucial (3rd!) block of Okafor’s shot in the final minute.

  3. Obviously the personal stuff is something of a concern but I just don’t think Lawson is a good fit stylistically. We don’t have the athletes to run with him in transition, we don’t have the shooters or the elite dive man to really best utilize his skills in the half court, and he’s the kind of PG who wants the ball in his hands a lot, and we know that doesn’t always sit well with Melo. Plus we have a couple young guards on the roster who he’d be taking playing time away from.

    If we can get him for free, and Phil feels like the personal stuff isn’t an issue, and we could find a place to dump Calderon so that there would still be minutes for Grant…then I’d be fine with it because we can clearly still use more talent on the roster, and he is talented. But I wouldn’t go very far out of my way to make it happen.

  4. A lot to like about Porzingis. He shows early signs of being dominant on both sides of the floor, but that rebounding issue is a nasty one that he needs to get solved. Before the draft I was saying Okafor would be a HOFer at the 4 and I still feel that way. If they play him at the 4 next to Noel, they’ll have a really good offense/defense combination in the front court. That said, Okafor might have the most moves of any front court player in the league. That pump fake between the legs dribble to spin off lay up was unbelievable. I think Philly and New York will have an ongoing rivalry for the length of Doom and Jahzilla’s careers since we play each other four times a year. They’re the same age (Doom turns 20 in August while Oak turns 20 in December), so they should play around the same amount of years. If both players are as good as I think they are and their front offices build around them accordingly, Philly and New York could have the brightest futures of any EC teams. Watching those two go at it should be fun for years to come until Okafor’s second contract runs out and he signs with the Knicks to fulfill his destiny and bring us a championship in 2025.

  5. OK so you’re saying, “Come on, Man. He clearly got manhandled in the post. If my Auntie had bullocks…”. Well, what about Karl Anthony Towns? How is he going to do one on one against Jah Sumo? The guy’s a load. I guess I’d let Anthony Davis try it one on one for the better part of a quarter. I would have liked to see Kris get a longer chance before they adjusted and started helping him but I understand why Fisher changed it up. I thought Kristaps and the team adjusted nicely.

    Philadelphia coverage at NBA.com
    “He’s really good, he’s great,” Okafor said of Porzingis after the game. “He was a top-five pick for a reason… He seems like he can do a bit of everything.”

  6. Anagrams Have Returned!

    Kristaps Porzingis: A risk sir? Stop! Ringz!
    Jerian Grant: Ring jar? Neat!

  7. For all the talk about fit with Ty Lawson, he was 3rd in the league in assists in Denver’s half court offense last year, posted a WS/48 of .126 and a WP/48 over .200 last season. I would gladly take that from my point guard. Off the court concerns aside, the Knicks could do with Lawson/Grant what Atlanta is doing with Teague/Schröder; let the vet help you win now while the younger guard develops into a stud behind him. Fit and if Ty Lawson is a good basketball player should not be the concern. Ty Lawson is a great player and has always been no matter what system he’s played in. The concern with Lawson is the off court stuff which seems to be big with him. I’m advocating for taking a risk with him if it costs you very little because you know he’s going to be the best point guard on the roster and get us into the playoffs if he plays 60+ games. Lawson, Afflalo, Melo, Doom, RoLo, Calderon, Grant, and O’Quinn gets the Knicks into the playoffs in a year where it serves no purpose to suck since we have no pick. I can see why people don’t want him here because of the off court issues, but fit shouldn’t be a problem with one of the league’s top point guards.

  8. Summer League Stats:
    TS% < 50%: Towns, Russell, Okafor, Mudiay, Hezonja, Winslow
    TS% > 53%: Zinger (65%), Grant (58%), WCS, Kaminsky, Johnson

    So, if starting a team today, and you are given the choice of Okafor or Zinger, whom do you choose? Okafor's post moves are incredible – Hakeem should attend his camp. However, a spread PnR offense featuring Zinger at the 5 will be unstoppable in the future (post Melo). How many centers are able to Dive and Pop other than Zinger? Phoenix would have won a title if Amare and Nash played a lick of defense. I'm taking Zinger!

  9. Porzingis’ strength doesn’t bother me because I don’t believe rebounding is a strength thing. I think rebounding is about effort and timing, and Porzingis’s timing just seems bad at this point. You don’t need strength too much when the post up game is dying, lighter bodies show fouls better, and when you have the speed to recover as a help defender and block 3 shots against Jahlil Okafor (who went 8-18 last night for 18 points). It’s just that I need to see him grab a rebound and do one of those Melo high elbow raises or smack the ball for me to feel comfortable. Go up and get it, big fella. It’s not a strength issue.

  10. I just re-watched the highlights from last night’s game. Okafor had 8 baskets, 6 of which occurred when someone other than Porzingis guarding him — 4 over Kirk, one over Ndour and one over Early. He had only two baskets over Porzingis, along with having three shots blocked, and committing an offensive foul on at least one other. I think Okafor is going to really struggle against height – just like he did in college. By the way, I can’t figure out why, but Okafor looks much shorter than he is.

  11. Ty Lawson for 2.8 million is a no brainer production wise. He’s a terrific player.

    However. Is there any point to having Ty for a year? He’d help us win more games, and assuming he didn’t fuck up the locker room or badly injure or kill someone driving drunk yet again, he’d be off to another team for more money. Ty Lawson for no long term commitment and little money-sure, I guess you roll the dice and hope you can keep him from killing himself or someone else. Long term and for real money? I’d have to know a lot more, but there are red flags galore.

  12. Between Porzingis and Okafor, it really depends on what you value. Okafor will have a lesser TS% but will likely have a usage in the high twenties on a respectable TS% (and if he ever learns to shoot free throws he’d be a guaranteed .600 TS) and is probably the better rebounder. I think Doom will hover above a .600 TS with a usage around 24 or 26 due to how passive he seems offensively, will be a flat out excellent defender in time, but will never be a great rebounder. The way the league is shaping up, I think Porzingis will ultimately be more productive, but I could see both in the HOF eventually.

    I think strength is a much bigger issue for D’Angelo Russell. He’s playing in the Western Conference at the point guard position. One on one defense is most important at the point guard spot, and you need both the strength and quickness to keep your man from getting penetration. You also need the strength and handle to keep Russell Westbrook, Chris Paul, and Rajon Rondo from destroying your offense when they full court press you. In his division alone he has to play Rondo, Bledsoe, Paul, and Curry. He also has turnover issues he needs to figure out. So in terms of strength, I think Russell has a bigger issue than Porzingis who can just float around on defense and block 2 shots.

  13. As for Zinger, the only thing that worries me is that it’s summer league. I saw Anthony Randolph look like a future MVP in the summer league. The rebounding is bad, but you knew he wasn’t going to rebound well this year. He’s been great on offense-he’s been taking good shots and getting to the line- he looks like he can be a difference maker on defense, and he’s even shown some passing skills that he didn’t seem to use in Europe.

  14. Idk Phil seems to think free agents will only come here if we win so if Ty adds wins next year maybe that helps our recruiting

  15. that rebounding issue is a nasty one

    RB /36: ORB 2.3 DRB 5.4 TRB 7.7
    2014-15 Liga ACB, Eurocup

    So, maybe 8 TRB / 36 this year? Would that exceed expectations?

  16. For me, the point to having Ty Lawson for a year is that he makes your team more watchable in a year where bad basketball doesn’t benefit you. We don’t have a draft pick this year, so it makes sense to push for the playoffs. It also helps you look more attractive to a group of free agents if you win 45 games, have good veterans and an All Rookie First teamer on the roster. Maybe Ty Lawson is Brandon Marshall in that he turns his life around to be a role model while remaining great. Maybe Ty Lawson becomes worthy of a 3 year deal at $8 million a year and you compete with him while Grant develops. Maybe you sign him for the room exception for two years and he Hassan Whiteside’s his contract value. Or maybe he’s a bad investment for the $2.8 million and you wash your hands of him after you win 35 games. I just think the risk becomes much lower and worth it because he’s a hell of a player if you get him at the room exception. I’d also trade Calderon for him straight up but I’m a little more “win and damn the morality unless he’s a rapist or Ray McDonald” than most people.

  17. If Porzingis averages 8 boards per 36 I would be very happy with him, and I know he can do it just based off his size and athleticism. It just that he looks so awkward when rebounding. I remember in the first game the ball hit him before he grabbed it. That’s scary to me.

  18. Also fuck Adam Silver and the NBA for crying poor again. They are manipulating the books AND they have a new TV deal coming up.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/sports/wp/2015/07/15/adam-silver-significant-number-of-nba-teams-losing-money/

    If the expenses are too much….SELL THE FUCKING TEAM. IM tired of this shit. And the dumb ass basketball fan will blame the players again because they get paid to play a childs game even though their salaries are artificially low

    as eloquently put by John Wall

    http://www.foxsports.com/nba/story/washington-wizards-john-wall-detroit-pistons-reggie-jackson-max-contracts-071515

  19. I saw Anthony Randolph look like a future MVP in the summer league.

    That summer fooled me too.

  20. Generally, guys coming from Europe see their rebounds go up their first year in the NBA, so 8 per 36 is probably the low end of what you’d want to see from the Zinger.

  21. All sports teams do this same sorry we’re losing money bullshit. Yes, I suppose some teams might be losing a small amount of money short term on their rapidly appreciating assets, but cry me a fucking river. And the press laps it up every goddamn time. Oh, those greedy players with their bling blings for just playing a game and what about the kids?

  22. As for Porzee, I agree with the rebounding issues as all have noted. One thing about him being kind of passive on offense; i recall a piece during one of the games when Bill Pito noted that every single time down the floor in the ACB there was a play called. So im not sure he knows how to freestyle out there. The one thing i like is when he flashes to the high post/foul line area and hits that 15 footer with ease.

  23. I would guess that he’s an alcoholic.

    Of course there a lot of complexities to Lawson’s individual situation and I totally agree that there are big red flags, but alcoholism is a disease that can be managed. If that’s really the driver of his problems (and not some other issue[s]), the solution could end up being as simple as rehab and a supportive environment.

    Obviously the personal stuff is something of a concern but I just don’t think Lawson is a good fit stylistically. We don’t have the athletes to run with him in transition, we don’t have the shooters or the elite dive man to really best utilize his skills in the half court, and he’s the kind of PG who wants the ball in his hands a lot, and we know that doesn’t always sit well with Melo. Plus we have a couple young guards on the roster who he’d be taking playing time away from.

    I don’t know if the Triangle maximizes his strengths, but I’m not as concerned about his fit with Knicks personnel. I do think they have some guys who can run the floor, though, and some bigmen who can run the p-n-r. He may not like it, but I tend to think Melo is best off with a strong floor general… because left to his own devises he’s often going to force a lot of bad shots rather than run anything resembling a professional offense. Not sure there’s much concern about taking time from other Gs. They only have one young G with much potential that I can ID, and if he’s not getting on the floor I don’t think it will be because Ty Lawson was blocking him.

  24. I saw Anthony Randolph look like a future MVP in the summer league.

    Randolph’s problem – like Bargs and Darko – was mostly between the ears. In fact, the difference between Zinger and those guys in that respect is stark.

    As for Porzee, I agree with the rebounding issues as all have noted.

    Someone – where’s Dylan Murphy when you need him – needs to closely examine tape to understand the defensive rebounding issue. It looked to me like he was boxing out but not grabbing the actual board. Is this a Robin Lopez type situation? If so, it will be very interesting when those two play together.

  25. I think the best thing I’ve seen out of Porzingis is how under control he seems to play for a 19 year old. he just knows how to play. No dumb shots. Passes out when appropriate on his post/drives. If anything he should shoot more. Compare that to Early/Galloway/Ledo who are just chucking away no matter the quality of the shot. Rebounding is a problem. Fouls too much. But overall he looks like a pro out there.

    Re: Okafor – I know it’s just a few games, but the “best post prospect in a generation” shouldn’t be having his shot blocked 5x/game in summer league. He just has very little lift and a low release point. Hopefully for his sake he can be coached up. He’s pretty disinterested on defense too.

    I’m feeling pretty good about the fact that Porzingis fell to us at 4.

  26. I’m a little more “win and damn the morality unless he’s a rapist or Ray McDonald” than most people.

    I don’t know how many people are opposed on moral grounds, but the irony of condemning someone else for past transgressions on moral grounds is just so incredibly great to me…

    However. Is there any point to having Ty for a year? He’d help us win more games, and assuming he didn’t fuck up the locker room or badly injure or kill someone driving drunk yet again, he’d be off to another team for more money. Ty Lawson for no long term commitment and little money-sure, I guess you roll the dice and hope you can keep him from killing himself or someone else.

    The short-term commitment isn’t just an advantage to Lawson in that he can increase his value and walk. It’s also (and probably more so) an advantage to the team that (theoretically) signs him because if he doesn’t increase his value you aren’t stuck with him. This seems like a trend on here… people identifying the downside to the team and the upside to the player without looking at the inverse. As a general rule, players would rather sign longer-term deals and teams shorter-term deals specifically because the team takes a big risk in a longer-term deal. (A long-term deal for a 28 year old PG might not be a good idea regardless.)

    Anyway… I absolutely think there’s a reason to sign him for one year (if that becomes a possibility). Even if he were one-and-done with the Knicks, the goal (I think) is to create a winning environment. FAs don’t sign with the Spurs because they won X games last season, I don’t think, but because there’s the expectation that they’ll continue to be well-run and a good team going forward. Starting to be seen as a well-run team that makes smart moves should benefit the Knicks.

    You also can’t worry about year 2 and beyond today. Maybe see if you cna get a team option, but otherwise take it as it comes.

  27. Fisher hedging about whether Ndour will have a shot at the roster no matter how well he plays? I hope that’s not the case.
    “I don’t know if there’s any more he can do,” Fisher said of Ndour making the Knicks roster. “I think he’s doing everything that’s at least in his control to be a guy that — whether it’s our team, hopefully so, but there are 29 other teams — he’s giving teams a look that he can play at this level and be pretty good at it.”
    http://www.cbssports.com/nba/eye-on-basketball/25241593/summer-league-notebook-kristaps-porzingis-jerian-grant-lead-knicks
    If he keeps it up in SL and training camp and Ledo doesn’t improve sigificantly, it’s hard for me to see why they wouldn’t rather have Ndour.

  28. The only argument for keeping Ledo, and it’s not a good one, is that the team has a ton of forwards and not enough guards. We definitely need at least one more guard, but I’ll be really irked if the signings of Thomas and Amundson (which I was in favor of for locker room reasons) keep the team from giving Ndour a real shot.

  29. Yeah id give the kid Ndour a look. He has loads of energy and can be coached up on his faults. At least put him on Westchester right?

  30. alcoholism is a disease that can be managed.

    I don’t want to turn this into a discussion about non-basketball matters, but yes, alcoholism is a disease but but it’s incurable. I’m not investing in a point guard that is on the downward spiral and he certainly raises all the red flags. And NY is the last place he should be if he ever decides to turn his life around.

  31. My observations on Zinger’s rebounding:
    1) Looked decent at boxing out
    2) Did a poor job of getting his hands up to reach for the board — seemed so focused on the box out that his timing was off reaching for the board. This can be learned.
    3) Seemed to have no sense of where to be to maximize his chance to get the board — albeit, based on a small sample set of observations. I think this is something that is actually very difficult to improve on. My sense is that this is a spatial relations skill that is not particularly learnable.

    That said, if he can be good at boxing out Melo, O’Quinn, and RoLo (even given his own rebounding issues) may be in for some big rebounding numbers next year which may be sufficient for decent team rebounding.

  32. examine tape to understand the defensive rebounding issue. It looked to me like he was boxing out but not grabbing the actual board. Is this a Robin Lopez type situation?

    Wasn’t examining it for this purpose specifically, but in ACB boxing out showed as a real weakness… not even getting a body on someone –> easy offensive board, standing in front of someone but just getting out-levered and out-muscled…

    Totally a guess, but it could be that the coaches are having him specifically work on boxing out. A step one – step two thing: worry about boxing out for now and then we’ll worry about actually getting the ball once you’ve mastered that.

    I also think part of it is just that he’s a bit awkward and lacks elite rebounding instinct, though.

    I think the best thing I’ve seen out of Porzingis is how under control he seems to play for a 19 year old. he just knows how to play. No dumb shots. Passes out when appropriate on his post/drives. If anything he should shoot more. Compare that to Early/Galloway/Ledo

    To oversimplify, I think a big part of that is developing in the European system vs. the US system. Of course individual players vary widely. Generally, though, top Euro prospects are going to have a better understanding of how to play within the team concept.

    If the Knicks want to develop a consistent winning team… I think they almost need to be able to identify and develop smart players. I think this is a big part of the Spurs success. (The Warriors also seem to have done a good job of it lately, and the Cavs hiring of Blatt could be partially a step in that direction.) Maybe you find a superstar or two, the vets flock, and you don’t need to find and develop smarts… but I think it’s something they should prioritize. The 2015 draft plus the RoLo and Afflalo pickups indicate they may be, some of their minor acquisitions recently may indicate the opposite.

  33. I read an interesting article on Porzingis this morning. He considers himself a 4, even as he grows to 7’3″! I prefer him the 4, but at 7’3″ 230, he almost has no choice but to play the 5. But I think he’ll be fine at either spot. If he’s more ready in his rookie season than we think, he’s gonna hafta play more 5, as Melo is expected to play more 4. As far as the rest of the roster goes, we’re not at the Dubs’ level of versatility, but Phil has put together a pretty versatile roster so far. Porzingis, O’Quinn, Melo, Williams, Afflalo, Grant, Galloway, Amundson, and Thomas all are expected to be in the rotation and can each play and guard multiple positions. Maybe even Early as well. I don’t know how it’s gonna work, but if Williams starts- I think that would be ok because they both can play each Forward spot. I’m beginning to see a little more of Phil’s vision. Defensively they worry me, but I see what Phil’s trying to achieve. As long as Williams can get to the rim and draw fouls, plus hit corner 3’s, I think he’ll be fine. I can’t wait til the preseason gets here to see what the team is gonna really look like- from coaching down.

  34. I don’t want to turn this into a discussion about non-basketball matters, but yes, alcoholism is a disease but but it’s incurable. I’m not investing in a point guard that is on the downward spiral and he certainly raises all the red flags. And NY is the last place he should be if he ever decides to turn his life around.

    One can certainly justify a risk-averse stance, but… your stance is kind of exaggerated.

    1. There have to be tens of millions of Americans living with alcoholism. If you refuse to hire any of them, you’re going to be missing out on a ton of talent (and in this case potentially a ton of value). With or without alcoholism, Lawson has performed his job at a very high level. If he’s done that despite untreated alcoholism… that potentially says something about how he’ll perform with treatment.

    2. This may be a downward spiral (there’s also a chance that it’s just a few isolated incidences artificially being linked into a spiral). I don’t think many people are suggesting riding out the descent, though. I think most people are saying to see if you can catch him on the rebound, once he’s on the upswing.

    3. I don’t know if it matters much whether a recovering alcoholic is in NYC or some Podunk town. It’s a popular meme that athletes in NYC will party harder, but I think it’s mostly BS. There are bars and clubs in every NBA city. Having lived in big and small cities, I’d actually guess that all else equal someone might be more likely to abuse alcohol in a smaller city where there are generally going be less interesting non-drinking activities available. If someone is a recovering alcoholic, though, I don’t know if it will matter much either way. (I’d guess studies exist, though.)

  35. At least put him on Westchester right?

    Ndour signed with the Knicks’ summer league team over other interested parties because Knicks were the only team that was okay with him going to play in Europe this season, where everybody else wanted him to commit to being on their D-League team. I assume that was before anyone thought he had a realistic chance of making a team’s regular season roster, which I imagine he’d prefer to Europe. But Westchester’s not an option.

  36. 3) Seemed to have no sense of where to be to maximize his chance to get the board — albeit, based on a small sample set of observations. I think this is something that is actually very difficult to improve on. My sense is that this is a spatial relations skill that is not particularly learnable.

    While there are probably some innate skills involved, anticipation/positioning is absolutely something that good rebounders spend a lot of time working on. I can’t say for sure whether the work pays off. Logically it seems like it would, though. Geometry and physics are learnable skills. Plus, being able to recognize that a certain shot is likely to bounce a certain way just seems like something that will improve through repetition.

    at 7’3? 230, he almost has no choice but to play the 5

    Why?

    If he’s more ready in his rookie season than we think, he’s gonna hafta play more 5, as Melo is expected to play more 4.

    I don’t know… He could certainly play at the 5, but there’s not exactly much competition with Melo at the 3, is there? RoLo and O’Quinn could theoretically handle basically all the minutes at the 5 while Zinger is at the 4 with DW/Melo and O’Quinn and Melo plays some/all of the time at the 3.

    Total speculation, but bringing in so many bigs already and still reportedly looking for another may also indicate that Melo isn’t seen as a 4 or at least not a full-time 4. Maybe they brought in DW as a sort of bigger 3 to complement Melo as a shorter 4, and maybe they just brought in the players they saw as good values regardless of position… but RoLo, Zinger, O’Quinn, DW, and maybe another 5 in the same off-season is a good amount of frontcourt depth.

    Porzingis, O’Quinn, Melo, Williams, Afflalo, Grant, Galloway, Amundson, and Thomas all are expected to be in the rotation

    Are Amundson and Thomas?

  37. at 7’3? 230, he almost has no choice but to play the 5

    Why?

    Because of his length and our relative lack of rim protection. Centers usually don’t stray too often from the paint on offense. But then again, depending on the matchup, he’ll play the 4.

    Porzingis, O’Quinn, Melo, Williams, Afflalo, Grant, Galloway, Amundson, and Thomas all are expected to be in the rotation

    Are Amundson and Thomas?

    I believe so. Maybe not heavy minutes, but I think that considering the way they finished last season, yes. If Early can keep up his SL level of play, then obviously Thomas will be stuck to the end of the bench. But as of now, I think Amundson and Thomas will get consistent minutes in the early going.

  38. @36 – I could not disagree with you more but I will not debate it.

    You could not disagree with what more? I essentially said that by not hiring alcoholics you are leaving a ton of talent on the table, that the idea is to consider him if he shows signs he’s turning it around, and that there are alcoholics in Podunk, USA just like there are alcoholics in NYC. Which of those points is even remotely debatable?

    (By the way… totally anecdotal… but NYC doesn’t even make this list of 40 drunkest cities in the US while Denver is top 15 and a bunch of other NBA cities make it: http://www.thedailybeast.com/galleries/2010/12/23/drunkest-cities.html#slide1)

    I did not say that you are wrong or that I disagree with you. I said that you are presenting one side of the analysis without the other side. The idea is to look at all the key information and then come to a decision. Not to make a decision and then go look for information that supports the decision you’ve already made.

  39. Ty Lawson’s shooting numbers have gone down every year he’s been in the league. That’s a red flag for me. At this point, getting him would be like resigning JR. (A better passing JR, but nonetheless, why?)

  40. I won’t speculate on the effect of Lawson possibly being an alcoholic – I don’t know enough about the disease, and don’t know whether it would be worse or better in a new environment and bigger city – but I do see the things he has done and said, and those things do not speak to character. Whether you’re an alcoholic or just a thoughtless fool, driving drunk is criminally dangerous. Repeating that offense is beyond stupid. Sending random angry tweets isn’t a sign of a good leader. Can you imagine Tim Duncan doing any of that?

    Point is, it doesn’t matter whether he’s an alcoholic or just an idiot: he’s got no character. Phil is clearly trying to create a better culture, and though I’ve always appreciated Ty as a player, and would love to have him for his play, as for the player himself, I am for continuing to go the path of quality. We need to change the culture, and we are positioned to do that with a team that plays hard and doesn’t go out partying the night before a day game. No to Lawson. We can add talent once we’ve established ourselves as a quality destination again.

  41. Yea I kinda feel like the Knicks isn’t the best place for Lawson to get his career back on track. He’s still talented, but the media presence might be a bit much for him right now. I’d still give him a shot if the asking price isn’t too high, but he needs a coach who believes in him and will allow him to play his game. I’d love to see D’Antoni get a hold of him.

  42. Because of his length and our relative lack of rim protection. Centers usually don’t stray too often from the paint on offense. But then again, depending on the matchup, he’ll play the 4.

    Knicks brought in one guy who spent ~30 MPG at the 5 last season, another who spent ~6 MPG there, and are reportedly looking for another 5. Zinger certainly could be RoLo’s primary back-up at the 5, but I tend to see the situation as just as fluid at the 4.

    You’ve already presupposed he’s playing the 5 in the offense comment, but even still 5s do play in the high-post and they don’t usually stray far from the paint because they don’t usually have much value outside the paint… there have been some 5s who have outside shots.

    I believe so. Maybe not heavy minutes, but I think that considering the way they finished last season, yes. If Early can keep up his SL level of play, then obviously Thomas will be stuck to the end of the bench. But as of now, I think Amundson and Thomas will get consistent minutes in the early going.

    They finished last season at least partially tanking for lottery position (at least roster management-wise, if not active in game tanking). There are generally 8 or 9 guys in a rotation, right? In no real order… Melo, RoLo, O’Quinn, Afflalo, Calderon, Grant, DW, maybe Zinger and/or Galloway… I don’t see a lot of room for Amundson and Thomas. (Has Amundson been re-signed?)

  43. What do you call a Power Forward or Center that gets 5-6 rebounds per 36 minutes?

    Ans: A Small Forward :-)

    I’m a little worried about the rebounding. To me, strength has only a little to do with what I’ve seen in simmer league. It’s that he has no instinct at all where the ball is going and when he finally figures it out, the other players are way quicker to the spot. I think he’s going to have work on general positioning and understanding where missed shots from certain locations are likely to go.

  44. I think the probability that Jackson brings in Lawson are 0% even if we are paid a minor pick to take him. You don’t do everything you can to clean house, including giving away tradeable assets, and then bring in a guy who is clearly not in control of his life right now. It’s not just the DUIs. There have been other off the court incidents and even his behavior on social media recently hasn’t been helping his cause. There’s a reason Denver wanted to get rid of him even before this incident.

  45. Ty Lawson’s shooting numbers have gone down every year he’s been in the league. That’s a red flag for me. At this point, getting him would be like resigning JR. (A better passing JR, but nonetheless, why?)

    Declining scoring efficiency is definitely not a good thing, but 2014-15 was the first season he’s finished below a .550 TS%.

    The past two seasons he’s taken more long-2s and made a lower % of them. That coincides with a coaching change from George Karl to Brian Shaw.
    Also probably worth noting is that he tripled his career high in 3-pt “heaves” last season… if you take that 6 down to 2 to line up with previous seasons then his 3P% jumps up to 35%.

    So, given that he’s shooting as well from 0-16 feet and as well from behind the 3 point line as he always did… Seems like there’s a pretty good chance the increase in long-2s taken and decrease in % made is system related rather than skill related.

  46. Strat – it’s all about his positioning, footwork and anticipation with his rebounding. It’s all teachable stuff and looking at the skills he’s acquired at this young age, I think he’s going to pick it up quickly. Add that bulk and we’re in business.

  47. As for Adam Silver crying poverty for some NBA teams, I dunno, I think that’s pretty much par for the course for a commissioner. He’s there to look out for the owners, so I don’t mind a little wolf-crying about the poverty of the NBA, especially when it is true that a number of NBA teams lose money. And I know that a bunch of those teams are scared shitless by the rise in the luxury cap, as there will suddenly be a gigantic decrease in luxury tax payments, which is how a lot of these teams break even. However, at the same time, they’ll also be splitting 50% of the new gigantic national TV deal, so while yes, some teams will lose a little money, you shouldn’t be buying a basketball team to make money. You buy a basketball team because it is awesome to own a basketball team. I think the NBA is, for the most part, in a happy place between the owners and the players and I’m not particularly worried about another work stoppage in 2017. But I don’t blame Silver for trying to make the owners’ position stronger ahead of 2017. If they use that BS to create a work stoppage, then yeah, eff him. But I don’t think that’s going to happen.

  48. What do you call a Power Forward or Center that gets 5-6 rebounds per 36 minutes?

    Probably not Zinger… That’s not really in line with his statistical history. SL is a time for skill development for young guys with guaranteed NBA contracts. Given that he was pretty terrible at boxing out in ACB, that a lot of people feel he’s boxing out without going for the rebound is actually encouraging to me.

    I think the probability that Jackson brings in Lawson are 0% even if we are paid a minor pick to take him. You don’t do everything you can to clean house, including giving away tradeable assets, and then bring in a guy who is clearly not in control of his life right now.

    Again, I don’t think anyone is saying to bring in Lawson if he’s not in control of his life. I, at least, am saying to consider him assuming that he shows signs that he’s at least working to be in control of his life.

    Considering that Phil Jackson has won rings with Rodman, Odom, and Artest/Peace… I really doubt his belief is that you need all choirboys to have a strong team culture. (Heck, Kobe is an accused rapist and Jordan is an accused gambler.)

  49. @53

    When you already have a great core team, great culture, and great attitude among the players, it’s OK to take on a little player risk if you think he’s the final piece to the puzzle. This is a different situation entirely. We have young players and are trying to change the attitude and culture.

    I feel bad for Lawson. I hope he gets his act together. But he should be someone else’s problem for the next 2 years while he tries to do that and we try to create that winning team and culture. I think Phil is smart enough to understand the difference.

  50. (Has Amundson been re-signed?)

    Yes..1 yr, vet min. I believe the team needs him to play consistent minutes. O’Quinn’s signing makes that hard to do though. But I like Amundson’s hustle and effort on defense- just not for big minutes. I do think that the team’s frontcourt defense will be fine with guys like Lopez, O’Quinn, Porzingis and Amundson. I still think we need another C, even though Amundson has played C, and that’s part of the reason I see Porzingis playing C as well.

  51. Whether you’re an alcoholic or just a thoughtless fool, driving drunk is criminally dangerous.

    But have you considered the flip side? Lawson is a professional athlete that trains in high altitude. He was arrested in Los Angeles, a sea-level town. Isn’t it possible that he thought he was drinking water, not vodka, and that the alcohol was having no effect on his well conditioned high-altitude metabolism. Then, during a routine DWB stop the lapd smelled his breath and hauled him in? It’s entirely possible!

    Which leads me, of course, to the Carmelo Anthony trade. Melo, too, was conditioned in high-altitude. Knowing full well that James Dolan actually prefers hiring players that are recovering alcoholics, Anthony could have easily faked a substance abuse problem, gotten himself waived by the Nuggets and landed with the Knicks, saving them from having to lose Mozgov, Gallinari, and Chandler.

    Damn you, Carmelo! If only you’d asked your CAA reps to get a little more creative in orchestrating your move to NY, you could have raised a banner in MSG and gotten the keys to the city. Ah, what could have been…

  52. I’m a little worried about the rebounding. To me, strength has only a little to do with what I’ve seen in simmer league. It’s that he has no instinct at all where the ball is going and when he finally figures it out, the other players are way quicker to the spot.

    Zinger’s an avid ping pong player so I gotta figure “knowing where the ball is going” is not the issue. He’s been playing the 5 in Summer League and my sense is he has to work real hard to dig in to box out and establish position. It’s tough to leap swiftly from that type of position. Once he gains some bulk and strength, I believe defensive rebounding will be less of an issue.

  53. If 4 DUI’s are isolated incidents, than Ty Lawson is one unlucky motherfucker.

    The question was whether he’s currently in a downward spiral. One of the DUIs you’re referring to was for being under the legal limit but also underage. What I was saying (in an aside from my main point) was that bad judgement about when to get behind the wheel twice in 6 months and about what to post on social media doesn’t necessarily mean your life is generally falling apart. It certainly could be a symptom of your life falling apart… but it could also be that on a day-to-day basis your life is the same as ever, but that life just includes questionable decision making ability and/or a tendency to over-indulge in alcohol without it being a debilitating issue… but also an ability to consistently be an above average NBA PG.

    The main point I was making there was just that we don’t really know everything, or much of anything, about Ty Lawson’s life based on a few media reports about a few incidences. Maybe there is more corroborating evidence I’m not aware of suggesting that he’s generally a scumbag or that his life is spiraling out of control. I just think a lot of people are making assumptions and jumping to conclusions.

  54. It would be nice to have a dedicated solid backup center, but O’Quinn and maybe a few minutes of Lou here and there should be a workable solution.

  55. When you already have a great core team, great culture, and great attitude among the players, it’s OK to take on a little player risk if you think he’s the final piece to the puzzle. This is a different situation entirely. We have young players and are trying to change the attitude and culture.

    My point is that a guy’s personal life and his influence on your team culture are not the same thing. A person may be a raging lunatic or raging asshole or raging alcoholic, but if he (or she) buys into the team concept 100% and performs… it might not really be relevant. And we don’t even know that Ty Lawson is any of those things, or at least I don’t.

    You are assuming not only that you know almost exactly what Phil Jackson is trying to do and how he’ll continue to try to do it, but also that you know that Phil Jackson views Ty Lawson as a bad presence/influence.

    I feel bad for Lawson.

    Why?

    I hope he gets his act together. But he should be someone else’s problem for the next 2 years while he tries to do that and we try to create that winning team and culture.

    Or he could be a key part of building a winning team culture as a guy who won an NCAA title and has been to the NBA playoffs four times in six seasons.

    I think Phil is smart enough to understand the difference.

    I hope Phil Jackson is smart enough to evaluate every person as an individual, rather than just saying “2 DUIs in a 6 months, I’m not even going to look into the guy.”

  56. Ted, apart from your concern about people making judgments about Ty Lawson based on limited evidence – What do you think the Knicks should do with respect to Ty Lawson and why do you think that?

  57. As much as I like Shved, I think Phil should go after better shooters to fill the roster. Am I correct in saying we have 3 spots left? I vote for 1 defender (Thanasis?), and 1 shooter (Jenkins) and 1 more big body(Big Baby?). I think that balances the roster.

  58. Yes..1 yr, vet min.

    I believe they actually used their cap space to give him his one year deal. Him and Thomas both got equal deals, using up the rest of the Knicks’ excess cap room (they still have the room, but otherwise they can only give out minimum deals).

  59. Lawson has five arrests on his record. His Wikipedia page has a separate section called “Arrests.”

  60. I think they should lean on Melo and Brian Shaw’s (I’m sure he’s still buds with Phil) character judgments on Ty, if he’s someone they would want around (although I do cringe using Melo as a judge of character). All signs point to Ty Lawson probably not being the guy they want to bring into what is still a very delicate situation (at least three young and very green guys who you hopefully want to groom into being the future of your organization and no vocal leader to lean on – no Melo is not that guy and Derek Fisher hasn’t shown he can’t be either).

  61. Ted, apart from your concern about people making judgments about Ty Lawson based on limited evidence – What do you think the Knicks should do with respect to Ty Lawson and why do you think that?

    Evaluate him based on a systematic due diligence process (rather than jumping to a conclusion based on media report). The main point I am making is that we don’t have enough information to evaluate him either way, not just that we don’t have enough information to condemn him. You have to form an opinion on his performance going forward and whether that expected performance is worth the cost ($ and/or assets traded), just like any other player. Whether or not he’s likely to be physically and mentally able to perform is part of the analysis on what kind of production you expect.

  62. Lawson has five arrests on his record. His Wikipedia page has a separate section called “Arrests.”

    And this means…

  63. It means he was caught 5 times. It means that trouble finds him. It means he’s untrustworthy. It means he’s a bad person. It means he doesn’t learn from his mistakes. It means he’s someone I don’t want in contact with rookies. It means he’ll be a bad influence.

    All the above things are simply my opinion. I have nothing to support my claims. I want nothing to do with him. I hope he turns his life around, but nowhere near NY. Is Brooklyn part of NY?

  64. I can see that a guy has been nabbed driving drunk 4 times and use that as evidence to condemn him, at the least, for being a fucking asshole. I mean appreciate being a contrarian, but there’s plenty of evidence that Ty Lawson has a problem with getting drunk and then driving his car. I’m not jumping to a conclusion that he has a problem getting drunk and then getting in his car and driving based on a media report-I’m basing it on him repeatedly getting caught by the police driving his car while drunk.

    This does not mean that I think the Knicks should not investigate Ty further if he gets cut by Denver. It means I am confident enough to state my opinion on a message board that Ty Lawson is a shithead who should not be allowed to drive and he probably should be seriously thinking about seeking professional help.

  65. Dude, nobody thinks the Knicks should make personnel moves based on players’ Wikipedia pages. Obviously, Phil Jackson has access to better information than we do. Nobody is saying he shouldn’t do due diligence. Save yourself the time and frustration of arguing the “we don’t know what really happened during those 5 arrests” card. If we only wrote about things we could scientifically prove, this board would be duller than Ty Lawson’s proverbial doorknob.

    (ps– if you ask Siri to look up “Ty Lawson alcohol”, she tells you all the Thai laws pertaining to public drunkenness:)

  66. Ted,

    My point is that a guy’s personal life and his influence on your team culture are not the same thing. A person may be a raging lunatic or raging asshole or raging alcoholic, but if he (or she) buys into the team concept 100% and performs… it might not really be relevant. And we don’t even know that Ty Lawson is any of those things, or at least I don’t.

    You are assuming not only that you know almost exactly what Phil Jackson is trying to do and how he’ll continue to try to do it, but also that you know that Phil Jackson views Ty Lawson as a bad presence/influence.

    Nothing is 100% certain in life. But if a player is all the things you are suggesting in paragraph one, chances are pretty good he’s going to be a problem on the team also.

    I am looking at Phil’s words and actions to date on the subject of team chemistry and culture and concluding it would be inconsistent to bring in a player with either a serious drinking or maturity problem that has been reinforced by other actions on social media. There is MORE to his behavior problem than just 2 DUI’s in the last 6 months. Denver has wanted him out since last year and this latest DUI is just icing on the cake. At this stage, I don’t see much of a difference between Lawson and JR Smith other than JR has been doing this kind of stuff for longer. I would lose respect for Jackson if he brought in Lawson in this snapshot of time given that he gave up Shumpert just to get rid of this kind of nonsense from JR a year faster.

    I feel sorry for Lawson because not too long ago he was a rising star on a pretty good young team. Now he has been arrested multiple times, made self defeating comments on social media that made it even harder to trade him somewhere he might be happier, and his team is so desperate to get rid of him they are considering waving him and eating cap hit etc… That screams there is a major personal issue. If he can get his act together, I think everyone (including Phil) would be OK with bringing him to NY in the future.

  67. Houston should be trying super hard to get Lawson. I feel like he’s a perfect fit there and could really put them over the top potentially.

  68. Looking at all the teams who have cap space remaining, we probably shouldn’t even be wasting our time talking about Lawson. We have $2.8 million to offer. The Blazers and Sixers each have around $16-$17m, the Pacers have around $10m, the Kings have around $6m, the Mavs and Celtics each have around $5m, the Magic have around $4m, and the Jazz have around $3m. These figures include existing cap holds, so for some of these teams the actual amount is even higher.

    I’m inclined to think at least one of those teams would gladly beat our offer for him, and I don’t think Lawson is taking less money to come to a team that a) isn’t all that good and b) has a lot of point guards.

  69. From Netw3rk via Grantland on the Zinger Okafor matchup yesterday:

    In the second half, though, Porzingis made a decision: Perhaps the best way to keep the bull out of the shop is to lock the door. Instead of trying to meet Okafor’s strength with his own, Porzingis switched it up and began fronting, denying entry passes with his length.

    “He’s a 5-man; I’m a 4-man,” Porzingis said after the game. “He’s really strong. He’s really skilled with the ball, so it’s hard to contain him. So, in the second half, I tried to play more aggressively so he couldn’t receive the ball.”

    Was that the coaches’ idea?

    “No, that was my own idea.”

    http://grantland.com/the-triangle/nba-summer-league-shootaround-okafor-vs-porzingis-the-reinvention-of-doug-mcdermott-and-more/

    One aspect of Porzingis that I’m definitely not worried about is the thing between his ears. He’s got an excellent basketball mentality.

  70. It means he was caught 5 times. It means that trouble finds him. It means he’s untrustworthy. It means he’s a bad person. It means he doesn’t learn from his mistakes. It means he’s someone I don’t want in contact with rookies. It means he’ll be a bad influence.

    All the above things are simply my opinion. I have nothing to support my claims. I want nothing to do with him. I hope he turns his life around, but nowhere near NY. Is Brooklyn part of NY?

    Seriously? You think that being arrested 5 times makes you a bad person? It would take me about 5 minutes to show you how ignorant this is.

    More to the point, why do you have opinions based on nothing that you can’t substantiate in any way? “I have no idea what I’m talking about, but by god I’m going to keep shoving my musings into your earholes anyway!”

    It means I am confident enough to state my opinion on a message board that Ty Lawson is a shithead who should not be allowed to drive and he probably should be seriously thinking about seeking professional help.

    Problem with drinking and driving? Absolutely. (At no time have I suggested drinking and driving isn’t a terrible thing.) Shithead? You’re pulling that out of your ass. Not all addicts are “shitheads.” The ignorance on this board re: substance abuse issues…

    What any of this means about his contributions to an NBA team is what we’re talking about, though, not about him as a person.

    Dude, nobody thinks the Knicks should make personnel moves based on players’ Wikipedia pages. Obviously, Phil Jackson has access to better information than we do. Nobody is saying he shouldn’t do due diligence.

    No. That is exactly what a bunch of people are arguing.

  71. stratomatic,

    There are hundreds of examples of pro athletes who fit one or all of those descriptions and still had long careers being generally positive contributors. That they weren’t arrested 5 times doesn’t mean that they weren’t some sort of less than desirable character.

    Phil’s actions also include winning many rings with total headcases.

    At this stage, I don’t see much of a difference between Lawson and JR Smith other than JR has been doing this kind of stuff for longer.

    The only difference I particularly care about is that Lawson has consistently been a well above average NBA player and JR Smith has generally been a bad NBA player. However, the whole point I am trying to make to you is that not all troubled or risky players are the same. In fact, almost no two are the same. That one troubled guy is not considered a good fit in a certain situation doesn’t mean that another one won’t be. Melo is arguably a basketball megalomaniac, and Jax oversaw his re-signing. DW is seen as a lazy underacheiver, but Jax signed him.

    I would lose respect for Jackson if he brought in Lawson in this snapshot of time given that he gave up Shumpert just to get rid of this kind of nonsense from JR a year faster.

    I don’t think that’s accurate on multiple levels… but Smith’s nonsense directly impacts the team’s performance (because he’s one of the ultimate chuckers in basketball history), while it’s a lot less clear whether Lawson’s issues actually negatively impact his team. If that trade was about nothing but getting rid of Smith, then Smith would have simply been cut. It was about trying to make the team better, and trading Smith and Shump in that particular deal was considered a way to do that.

    If he can get his act together, I think everyone (including Phil) would be OK with bringing him to NY in the future.

    You are specifically saying that Phil will not…

  72. Ted,
    You must not have read this part of my post:

    All the above things are simply my opinion. I have nothing to support my claims.

  73. Shithead? You’re pulling that out of your ass. Not all addicts are “shitheads.” The ignorance on this board re: substance abuse issues…

    Ted, perhaps you could point out to me where I said that all addicts were shitheads? I said that Ty Lawson is a shithead because he keeps driving drunk (as evidenced by his repeated DUI arrests) and putting other people at risk. Please bear in mind that I am not arguing that his head is literally made out of shit. As far as I know-and I cannot prove this, mind you-his head is made out of whatever other human heads are made of.

  74. The ignorance on this board re: substance abuse issues…

    Oh, the ignorance…

    (clutches pearls, retires to fainting couch, dabs forehead with cool towel)

  75. No. That is exactly what a bunch of people are arguing.

    I don’t think you quite understand the nature of the board and the personalities that contribute to it. If Jackson decided to sign Lawson and he became a Knick, everybody here would be okay with it and root for him. How do I know this? Because we rooted for JR Smith, and for Latrell Sprewell, and for Vin Baker, and for Qyntel Woods, and for all the other guys that played here despite having questionable off-court behavior. People are only offering a priori opinions because that is all we can offer here.

    In the case of substance abuse, it’s not the same as domestic violence or, say, a gambling problem or other character flaw, because substances, and alcohol in particular, have an adverse effect on a player’s body, which is what you are investing in when you hire a person to play basketball. Not only does in impair reflexes in the short term, bit it also turns muscle to fat over time, so it’s not just that there is a moral or character component to the thought process. We’ve seen Vin Baker go from 240 to 300 lbs and his productivity fall off a cliff in the process. We’ve seen Chris Mullin go from 200 lbs to 250 lbs because of his admitted abuse of alcohol. Mullin got clean and it didn’t effect his career, but Baker never did recover enough to be productive. So, even if we know the details of Lawson and his various alleged issues, we still couldn’t really say for sure how his career will play out. But where there is smoke there is often fire, and Phil did make a pretty big point about culture change and ridding the roster of Felton and Smith, so I think the posters that think Lawson’s next stop won’t be New York are probably right. But, of course, time will tell.

  76. Ted,
    You must not have read this part of my post:

    Huh? I specifically addressed that part of your comment: “why do you have opinions based on nothing that you can’t substantiate in any way?” I also specifically phrased it as your opinion: “You think that being arrested 5 times makes you a bad person?” YOU THINK…

    Ted, perhaps you could point out to me where I said that all addicts were shitheads? I said that Ty Lawson is a shithead because he keeps driving drunk (as evidenced by his repeated DUI arrests) and putting other people at risk.

    So… behavior potentially influenced by an addiction makes him a shithead. That has the exact same implications as saying that a substance abuse issue makes someone a shithead.

    Oh, the ignorance…

    Yeah, people sitting around judging other people while being total assholes themselves sort of drives me nuts. Forgive me for thinking that people should hold themselves to the same standards as they hold others…

  77. DRed,
    Thank you. I’ve had many arguments with people and tell them that their statements are “bigoted” (not the topic here, but it’s the same). The litmus test for me is simple. If you say “Ty Lawson is a shithead”, I’m fine with it. When you say that “all alcoholics are shitheads” you cross the line. You can substitute “Ty Lawson” with any specific name and “alcoholics” with any group of people and it’s the same litmus test.

    Back on topic. If a person has been arrested once or even twice, I’m going to give that person the benefit of the doubt. After that, my opinion is that you’re trouble. Three strikes and you’re out. The more I read about him, the less I want him anywhere near this team. I’m with you, he’s a shithead. Again, just my opinion. I think that Kim Jung-Un is also a shithead – not all North Koreans, just him.

  78. I mean there’s a difference between being an addict and getting 3-4 DUIs. It’s also an open question whether or not he is indeed an alcoholic. If he’s not an alcoholic then this getting DUIs is really fucked. It seems that either he’s not an alcoholic or is not enough of one so that he’s still morally responsible for his actions, or he is a severe enough alcoholic that he’s no longer morally responsible and should be in court-mandated rehab until he’s better. Since he’s not in court-mandated rehab, I can say with a fair degree of confidence that Ty Lawson is, indeed, a shithead. He may be a totally nice interpersonally, may be a “good person” otherwise, may just like alcohol a little too much, but those acts do indeed render you a shithead irrespective of your other traits.

    Is he a bad person? That’s not really a judgment any of us can or ought to make. But he was definitely being a shithead when he chose to drive drunk 3-4 times. Do we have good reason, at this time to conclude that he’s a malcontent(not a bad person, but a malcontent)? Absolutely. Does that mean I would never have him on my basketball team? Absolutely not. I can be bought, and if other teams use weird moral licensing to rationalize hiring rapists, murderers, and domestic abusers, by god so can I.

  79. How much addiction affects your moral culpability is an open philosophical question but most people tend to think that being addicted only mitigates (i.e. doesn’t get rid of) your moral culpability unless it exerts complete and total control over you. That’s not to say addicts are bad people, but that is to say there are still moral expectations that bear upon them. And Lawson, whether or not he’s an addict, failed to uphold those moral expectations. Again, this doesn’t mean Lawson is a bad person, but it points to definite character flaws that should rightly give people pause.

  80. @72

    (ps– if you ask Siri to look up “Ty Lawson alcohol”, she tells you all the Thai laws pertaining to public drunkenness:)

    as a Thai person, I found this hilarious :)

    @Ted:

    “why do you have opinions based on nothing that you can’t substantiate in any way?”

    ….because they are his opinions, he is entitled to have opinions, as valid or invalid as you may find them. They are opinions, dude. So what if you feel he can’t substantiate them? Who cares? It’s HIS opinion!

  81. Seriously? You think that being arrested 5 times makes you a bad person? It would take me about 5 minutes to show you how ignorant this is.

    You are on the clock!

  82. We’ve seen Vin Baker go from 240 to 300 lbs and his productivity fall off a cliff in the process. We’ve seen Chris Mullin go from 200 lbs to 250 lbs if his admitted abuse of alcohol.

    Lawson got his first DUI in college, and he hasn’t gained 50 pounds since. He’s been an above average NBA player in each of his 6 seasons. Certainly that could change, but thinking it will change over the next season or two involves a lot of speculation. (Beyond two years, as a sub-6 foot PG in his 30s, all bets are off. His knees or something else might go even if he were a teetotaler.)

    So, even if we know the details of Lawson and his various alleged issues, we still couldn’t really say for sure how his career will play out.

    Can we say how any players career will turn out? It’s all about probabilities. If the Knicks can get Lawson for rock-bottom prices and don’t think he’ll be an issue… it could be a good move.

    Phil did make a pretty big point about culture change and ridding the roster of Felton and Smith,

    Is Ty Lawson secretly living a double life as both Ray Felton and JR Smith that I was unaware of? Again, different players have different impacts on culture. And even if we knew for sure that Lawson would have a negative impact on culture, his on court impact may more than offset it.

    so I think the posters that think Lawson’s next stop won’t be New York are probably right. But, of course, time will tell.

    That’s a red herring… there’s got to be well below a 1 in 30 chance that Lawson will be a Knick next season given that he’s already under contract with a different team, and maybe lower still if there’s a risk he’s in jail or rehab. Of course anyone who says that any non-Knick won’t be a Knick in the near future is probably right…

  83. @ Ted

    Why is it ok for you to speculate and make statements as if they were fact without providing evidence to back them up, but not anyone else?

  84. ….because they are his opinions, he is entitled to have opinions, as valid or invalid as you may find them. They are opinions, dude. So what if you feel he can’t substantiate them? Who cares? It’s HIS opinion!

    I did not say “you are not entitled to your opinions.” I asked why he has opinions based on nothing. That’s a dangerous route to take. You’re going to end up being wrong a lot of the time if you routinely think things based on nothing.

    Back on topic. If a person has been arrested once or even twice, I’m going to give that person the benefit of the doubt. After that, my opinion is that you’re trouble. Three strikes and you’re out.

    I have no words… How many people do you know, personally, who have been arrested even once? If you think being arrested necessarily equates to being a bad person, I’m going to guess it’s close to zero.

    Is he a bad person? That’s not really a judgment any of us can or ought to make. But he was definitely being a shithead when he chose to drive drunk 3-4 times.

    This. Yes. Thank you. Acting like a shithead in a given situation =/= he IS a shithead.

    or he is a severe enough alcoholic that he’s no longer morally responsible and should be in court-mandated rehab until he’s better. Since he’s not in court-mandated rehab

    You’ve lost me here… Should be in court mandated rehab =/= all people who should be are…

  85. Why is it ok for you to speculate and make statements as if they were fact without providing evidence to back them up, but not anyone else?

    Where am I doing that? Saying that something is a possibility is not the same thing as stating something as fact.

  86. Being an alcoholic does NOT make you a bad person but society has deemed that driving drunk makes you a “bad person”. Proof of that is the law. Drunk driving is a serious crime. I guess you can say that a person that gets arrested multiple times for drunk driving is not a “bad person” but a “Very bad person”. Drunk driving kills. There’s no excuse. Take a cab.

  87. Ted, I asked what you think the Knicks should do and you said they should get better information. I agree that is what they should do. But that is not what I was asking about. Do you, based solely on the limited evidence available to all of us, think the Knicks should try to sign Ty Lawson? This is a sports blog. We comment to share opinions based on easily available evidence. We’re not determining legal culpability or making real personnel decisions. For the conversation about our opinions to advance, the appropriate standards of evidence have to be tacitly understood by all participants. If we act as if the certainty standards of courts or GMs should apply, the conversation can get bogged down by people repeating variations on: “You don’t know what your talking about and don’t even realize that you don’t know.” It is a given that the limited information available on many topics insufficient for a high degree of certainty. I think it is adequate for expressing a reasoned opinion on a sports blog. Do you think the Knicks should to try and sign Ty Lawson?

  88. “You’ve lost me here… Should be in court mandated rehab =/= all people who should be are…”

    Yeah I got lazy and didnt feel like typing out the rest. The real reason is the conjunction of his not being in court mandated rehab, plus still being a fairly productive, non overweight basketball player, plus other things like he doesn’t seem like he’s hallucinating/acting weird when he’s not drinking (a symptom of serious alcoholism). This complex of reasons gives me a good enough reason to think that he’s not seriously, life-threateningly alcoholic (this is anecdote and therefore not rigorous but many of my family members have died from alcoholism and i’ve researched into addiction on my own so I feel at least partially qualified in speaking on the subject) and so I don’t think his alcoholism is severe enough to exonerate him of responsibility, but if I’m wrong and if it is, then it’s just weird that the Nuggets haven’t deactivated him/journalists and people haven’t noticed anything (weight gain, strange behavior, etc.) beyond the usual garden variety dumb shit (DUIs, a bad attitude, and random acts of tweeting.) I’m not saying the evidence is unequivocal, but his issues definitely seem controllable. And if they are controllable, then I find him to still be responsible.

    That being said can we just say that Ty Lawson is a headcase and it’s totally acceptable to not want headcases or to want headcases so long as you have other reasons backing it up? I’d like to get back to being giddy over Porzingis, Grant, and the rest of the young ones.

  89. The New York Knickerbockers, commonly referred to as the Knicks, are a professional basketball team based in New York City, New York.

  90. Being an alcoholic does NOT make you a bad person but society has deemed that driving drunk makes you a “bad person”.

    The point I am making (as is Alecto) is that being an alcoholic, rather than being an asshole, can be the cause of your drunk driving.

    Proof of that is the law. Drunk driving is a serious crime.

    Against the law =/= immoral… Those are two separate issues. We are so far from talking about basketball here, though. Ty Lawson can be a terrible person and still a good addition for the Knicks.

    I guess you can say that a person that gets arrested multiple times for drunk driving is not a “bad person” but a “Very bad person”. Drunk driving kills. There’s no excuse. Take a cab.

    Whether it’s an excuse or not is debatable… but the point you are missing is that if you are incapacitated by alcohol when you get behind the wheel, drunk driving doesn’t make you a bad person. It might be that you’re a bad person, or it might be that you’re a sick person. Alcoholics enter fugue states. You seem to have a lot of strong opinions about things you don’t understand very well (people who are arrested, alcoholics…).

  91. The New York Knickerbockers, commonly referred to as the Knicks, are a professional basketball team based in New York City, New York.

    That’s just like, your opinion, man.

  92. The real reason is the conjunction of his not being in court mandated rehab, plus still being a fairly productive, non overweight basketball player, plus other things like he doesn’t seem like he’s hallucinating/acting weird when he’s not drinking (a symptom of serious alcoholism). This complex of reasons gives me a good enough reason to think that he’s not seriously, life-threateningly alcoholic

    I tend to agree. However, the same people who are are arguing that he’s an asshole are also arguing that his alcoholism is severe enough to impact his job performance. When it suite their argument he’s enough of an alcoholic (or whatever) to disrupt a team and corrupt young minds, but then when it suites their argument he’s sober enough to make good decisions. One can be both… but it’s kind of tough for us to sit here and argue that he is both.

    then it’s just weird that the Nuggets haven’t deactivated him/journalists and people haven’t noticed anything (weight gain, strange behavior, etc.)

    There could be a lot of issues that wouldn’t necessarily be that noticeable. Maybe, at 27/28, his liver is still in decent shape but he heavily enough to black out (easily, maybe) and gets behind the wheel. Maybe it’s alcohol mixed with an underlying mental health or drug issue. I just don’t see why people feel the need to come to one conclusion when there are multiple possibilities that they’re not really in a position to decide between.

    That being said can we just say that Ty Lawson is a headcase and it’s totally acceptable to not want headcases or to want headcases so long as you have other reasons backing it up? I’d like to get back to being giddy over Porzingis, Grant, and the rest of the young ones.

    I’ll drop it soon… but I really have a problem with fans feeling like they can degrade athletes as human beings based on almost no evidence.

  93. THCJ – can you please change your username to something less personal? A neutral one would be nice.

    Ted – can we please stop with badgering people over specific points. This is a sports blog, a place where people can state their opinions and talk about possible scenarios and pretend we know the inner minds of Dolan, Jackson, Fisher, Melo. There needs to be some tolerance of this line of thought and speech.

    We’re not making a record of fact, and we don’t have to prove that Ty Lawson is a shithead without a reasonable doubt to say publicly he’s a shithead. As someone who lost a friend to a DUI and another who has been jailed multiple times, I can say it’s completely reasonable to assume Ty Lawson is a shithead. He may not be a shithead to his teammates, and might not be a cancer to the team, etc. And Bill Cosby might be a nice guy to play tennis with. But I can also assume that Bill Cosby is a shithead too. That kind of thought is allowable here.

    Let’s get back to talking about basketball, and not argue the minute details of every phrase.

    With that said, the Knicks would be dumb to not offer Ndour a contract for this season with a team option. And I’ve made this decision not because of stats (although I did crunch them a tiny bit) but because he’s damn fun to watch and cheer for.

  94. Do you, based solely on the limited evidence available to all of us, think the Knicks should try to sign Ty Lawson?

    Again, having an opinion either way runs directly counter to my argument that we need more information to have any meaningful opinion. I can’t possibly have an opinion about whether the Knicks should get Lawson until I have some idea what’s wrong with the dude/how it’s likely to impact his job performance going forward and what the cost to acquire him is. I’ve made some pretty nuanced points about why I think it’s worth looking into in this and other threads.

    I think it is adequate for expressing a reasoned opinion on a sports blog. Do you think the Knicks should to try and sign Ty Lawson?

    And I don’t. I think it is ridiculously stupid to go around expressing opinions based on nothing. Obviously, or I wouldn’t be wasting my time saying that over and over again.

    I think you are mistaken that a sports conversation has to be total bullshit, unsubstantiated opinion to be interesting. I think that we can say, for example, “the Knicks should look into Lawson… then based on these factors they should acquire him if the results are such and not acquire him if the results are such” just as easily as we can say “THE KNICKZ SHOULDNT GET DAT DER BUM NO MATTA WAT BECUZ THAN GUYZ A SHITHEAD BUM!!!” In fact, I think the former is infinitely preferable to the latter. Look, for example, at my exchanges with Alecto vs. my exchanges with some of the hardliners.

  95. With that said, the Knicks would be dumb to not offer Ndour a contract for this season with a team option. And I’ve made this decision not because of stats (although I did crunch them a tiny bit) but because he’s damn fun to watch and cheer for.

    Damn…you escalated all the way eh.

  96. With that said, the Knicks would be dumb to not offer Ndour a contract for this season with a team option. And I’ve made this decision not because of stats (although I did crunch them a tiny bit) but because he’s damn fun to watch and cheer for.

    Damn…you escalated all the way eh.

    Put it this way. If this team isn’t going to get/play guys that are statistically good for them, I might as well have people I can enjoy playing and root for. Also consider the guys they get are typically unrootable or root-neutral.

  97. And I don’t. I think it is ridiculously stupid to go around expressing opinions based on nothing.

    It wasn’t based on “nothing.” Four DUIs isn’t “nothing.” It means that on at least four occasions, Ty Lawson drove a vehicle while impaired, which as we have seen very often, can kill. Now, that may not be a good enough reason not to want a guy on the Knicks, but it isn’t “nothing.”

  98. Where am I doing that? Saying that something is a possibility is not the same thing as stating something as fact.

    Just from this thread:
    Post #28

    As a general rule, players would rather sign longer-term deals and teams shorter-term deals specifically because the team takes a big risk in a longer-term deal. (A long-term deal for a 28 year old PG might not be a good idea regardless.)

    I actually agree with you here, but how do you know what “general rules” are for players? Are you a player? Do you have access to the “general rule” book?

    #34

    Wasn’t examining it for this purpose specifically, but in ACB boxing out showed as a real weakness… not even getting a body on someone –> easy offensive board, standing in front of someone but just getting out-levered and out-muscled…

    Here you’re making a statement after just saying that you didn’t examine it. Later on in post #78 you lay into GoNYGoNYGo for doing the same thing.

    #36

    There have to be tens of millions of Americans living with alcoholism.

    I don’t doubt you’re right, it certainly seems reasonable. But anytime anyone else makes a generalized statement like this without providing any actual evidenence you take every opportunity to drone on about it.

    Also #36

    It’s a popular meme that athletes in NYC will party harder, but I think it’s mostly BS.

    Where’s your documented proof?

    #39

    Plus, being able to recognize that a certain shot is likely to bounce a certain way just seems like something that will improve through repetition.

    “just seems like” just seems like a cop out to not provide any peer reviewed articles to substantiate this claim.

  99. Also #39

    Total speculation, but bringing in so many bigs already and still reportedly looking for another may also indicate…

    You lost me at “total speculation,” as I, just like yourself, simply cannot abide any speculation on a sports fan blog.

    #41

    You could not disagree with what more? I essentially said that by not hiring alcoholics you are leaving a ton of talent on the table, that the idea is to consider him if he shows signs he’s turning it around, and that there are alcoholics in Podunk, USA just like there are alcoholics in NYC. Which of those points is even remotely debatable?

    If they are so undebateable, surely you can offer some evidence for this?

    #45

    Knicks brought in one guy who spent ~30 MPG at the 5 last season, another who spent ~6 MPG there, and are reportedly looking for another 5.

    Where are you getting this “reported” information from? Certainly not from any dreaded media source, I hope.

    #49

    The past two seasons he’s taken more long-2s and made a lower % of them. That coincides with a coaching change from George Karl to Brian Shaw.

    Got a shot chart to point to? Also, are you suggesting that a coaching change has something to do with it without providing any tangible proof to support such an assertion? Goodness, I hope not.

    #58

    but also an ability to consistently be an above average NBA PG.

    Where is your proof that he is an above average NBA PG? I agree that he is, but apparently we can’t just assume anymore like we thought we could with Derrick Williams and Bargnani.

  100. Also #58

    The main point I was making there was just that we don’t really know everything, or much of anything, about Ty Lawson’s life based on a few media reports about a few incidences.

    Ok, you’re not actually doing that here but as someone who has been though the devastation of what happens when someone else gets behind the wheel drunk (a sublimely selfish thing to do), I have to disagree with you here. He’s been arrested for it multiple times, so yes, I believe that’s enough to make a judgment call on the asshole.

    #60

    Or he could be a key part of building a winning team culture as a guy who won an NCAA title and has been to the NBA playoffs four times in six seasons.

    Or Scarlett Johansson could come knock on my door in the next ten minutes looking for wild sex, so I better stay single because you just never know.

    #67

    Evaluate him based on a systematic due diligence process (rather than jumping to a conclusion based on media report).

    Or, y’know, evaluate him on his arrest record like every single other employer does in this country.

    #78

    Seriously? You think that being arrested 5 times makes you a bad person? It would take me about 5 minutes to show you how ignorant this is.

    We have a winner! I could probably stop here…

    #79

    There are hundreds of examples of pro athletes who fit one or all of those descriptions and still had long careers being generally positive contributors.

    But I won’t, so start listing.

    #84

    Yeah, people sitting around judging other people while being total assholes themselves sort of drives me nuts. Forgive me for thinking that people should hold themselves to the same standards as they hold others…

    I don’t know about you, but I certainly hold others accountable when they drink and drive and I do it all while not drinking and driving myself.

  101. I’ll drop it soon… but I really have a problem with fans feeling like they can degrade athletes as human beings based on almost no evidence.

    Well, he got 4 DUIs, i think it is fair evidence that he has a problem. The problem may or may not be alcoholism, mental problems, attitude…

    I mean, after 3 DUIs you must be aware of the situation and try to do something so it does not happen again (do not drink, do not take the car if you plan on drinking, hire a choffer, take a cab,…). If you fail to do so, it means you either cant solve the problem, or dont care about it.

    In the future, he may or may not solve it. And even if he does not solve it, it may or may not translate to the basketball court; although it is objective that such possibility would attract unwanted media attention. I think it is fair for bloggers of this site to state that he has behaved as a bad person, and do not want to know what the future of him would be on the Knicks.

  102. All of this is to say that you absolutely make the same claims as others without documented proof because this is a sports fan blog and you don’t have to do all of that. What’s more, I actually agreed with many of your points, but if you’re gonna call people out everytime they make a statement or claim and don’t back it up, I think it’s only fair someone does it to you. It gets annoying, man, seriously. It’s ok to have a discussion and state opinions without having to give people the third degree.

  103. Ted – can we please stop with badgering people over specific points. This is a sports blog, a place where people can state their opinions and talk about possible scenarios and pretend we know the inner minds of Dolan, Jackson, Fisher, Melo. There needs to be some tolerance of this line of thought and speech.

    So… other people are allowed to state their opinions, but not me? I can’t say, in my opinion that’s not a good way to look at this issue?

    And why is it badgering when I reply to a comment, but not when other people reply to my comments? I still have yet to see you respond to one person for rude comments directed at me. There have been multiple screennames with no purpose other than to mock me. You have made multiple comments with no purpose other than to mock me. How about trying to apply the same rules universally, and not just to the new guy who disagrees with a lot of people?

    We’re not making a record of fact, and we don’t have to prove that Ty Lawson is a shithead without a reasonable doubt to say publicly he’s a shithead.

    Why is it ok to call Lawson a shithead, but it would not be ok for me do the same thing to another commenter here? I do not think it’s ok to baselessly insult another person just because they’re not there to hear it. In fact, I generally think that’s a lot worse.

    Let’s get back to talking about basketball, and not argue the minute details of every phrase.

    Again… I am largely replying to what other people choose to discuss. All of my initial comments were about basketball.

    Since I’m really tired of this crap… I’m just going to say it… notice who the commenters are that understand what I’m saying and have productive conversations with me. Then notice who the ones are that get all bent out of shape when I ask them why they think stupid things…

  104. You said this:

    I still have yet to see you respond to one person for rude comments directed at me. There have been multiple screennames with no purpose other than to mock me. You have made multiple comments with no purpose other than to mock me. How about trying to apply the same rules universally, and not just to the new guy who disagrees with a lot of people?

    AFTER the host of the blog said this:

    THCJ – can you please change your username to something less personal? A neutral one would be nice.

  105. Kahnzy,

    First, I am not perfect. Being perfect is not a prerequisite for suggesting other people could do things better, though.

    However… I think you are misrepresenting what I said in all of the cases I looked at. For example, in the 2nd case… I gave the exact source of the information I was using (game tape). I said that I didn’t examine the tape for that purpose, not that I didn’t examine it.

    You are comparing cases where I referenced a provable fact to cases where people chose one of many possibilities as the only possibility. Those are not the same thing.

    iserp,

    Most of what you’re saying is actually in agreement with what I’ve been saying. The conclusions you draw that disagree with my points are things I’ve already addressed multiple times.

  106. What’s more, I actually agreed with many of your points, but if you’re gonna call people out everytime they make a statement or claim and don’t back it up

    Am I doing that? Really? Every time? Or am I discussing things with them just as you suggest they’re free to do amongst themselves?

    I think it’s only fair someone does it to you.

    This is not what you’ve done. Instead you’ve taken things I said completely out of context and claimed I am saying things that I did not. For example, I specifically said that a coaching change COULD have caused his change in shot selection (a change that is a fact… not an opinion… a verifiable fact). Do you not understand how that is different from what you’re accusing me of? Suggesting something is possible =/= saying it’s true. Stating a fact anyone with the internet can verify for themselves =/= not backing up a claim.

    It’s ok to have a discussion and state opinions without having to give people the third degree.

    It’s ok for other people to have a discussion, but not for me? What else do you suggest I do when the subject of the discussion is me not agreeing with their point? There would be no discussion if I didn’t call out the places where we disagree and the holes I perceive in their logic.

    AFTER the host of the blog said this:

    I literally had not seen it when I typed that. It changes the wording of what I said, but not the point I made. He’s said one sentence to one person. He has refused to actually engage me in conversation, but has repeatedly made rude comments to me.

  107. Kahnzy,

    First, I am not perfect. Being perfect is not a prerequisite for suggesting other people could do things better, though.

    However… I think you are misrepresenting what I said in all of the cases I looked at. For example, in the 2nd case… I gave the exact source of the information I was using (game tape). I said that I didn’t examine the tape for that purpose, not that I didn’t examine it.

    You are comparing cases where I referenced a provable fact to cases where people chose one of many possibilities as the only possibility. Those are not the same thing.

    Man for someone who complains ad nauseam that people mistake your point, you sure did miss mine.

    It’s ok for other people to have a discussion, but not for me? What else do you suggest I do when the subject of the discussion is me not agreeing with their point? There would be no discussion if I didn’t call out the places where we disagree and the holes I perceive in their logic.

    I suggest you engage in a discussion in much the same way practically every. Single. Other. Poster. Here. Does. Which is to say, you can disagree, state why you disagree, and maybe even throw in some facts to back it up. You simply take it to a whole other level, and despite the fact that I’m far from the first person to say this to you, you’ll simply play your “but I’m the victim here” card and ignore it.

    As for there being no discussion without you calling everyone out on every single point, you’re flat out wrong there. Posters have been managing to have discussion here for years, and somehow, someway, many manage to do it without being so obnoxious about it (though there have been certain exceptions).

  108. Tedious arguments are a big part of what we do here. I’m not about to kick pointless, tedious arguments to the curb.

  109. +1 to signing Ndour. -all of the numbers to picking up Lawson. So much better to sign a guy who’s improving and is easy to root for than an immoral asshole* who’s numbers suggest he’s declining. Not to mention that championships have been won by franchises that develop young players and hold on to them while trying to reform players with evident personal problems and declining performance has a spottier record of success. But given the Williams signing who the hell knows which way the Knicks will go.

    *Driving drunk is a reckless and immoral act. Doing it repeatedly is even worse. Alcoholism may be a reason, but it’s not a fucking excuse. Ty Lawson makes a lot of money, he’s got options for getting home. He’s a fucking asshole.

  110. Man for someone who complains ad nauseam that people mistake your point, you sure did miss mine.

    Please, enlighten me. Was your point to be really annoying and use a bunch of examples that in no way proved your point? That sure is how it came across. Or was it maybe to hugely exaggerate your points so that they meant nearly nothing?

    Does. Which is to say, you can disagree, state why you disagree, and maybe even throw in some facts to back it up. You simply take it to a whole other level

    How? Because I keep replying? In what other way?

    despite the fact that I’m far from the first person to say this to you, you’ll simply play your “but I’m the victim here” card and ignore it.

    Have I once said I’m a victim? Saying that other people are doing the same thing =/= I am a victim. Saying that Mike has repeatedly made rude comments to me is not saying I feel like a victim. It’s just saying that he’s repeatedly made rude comments.

    and somehow, someway, many manage to do it without being so obnoxious about it

    Again… interestingly the people with the intellectual capacity to understand the nuances of my comments (take Alecto, for example) seem to find them a lot less obnoxious than the people who think life is all about their grand opinions based on nothing.

    Posters have been managing to have discussion here for years

    Yeah, and for many of those years I was one of the main people involved in those discussions.

  111. who’s numbers suggest he’s declining

    Again, when you look past the surface this is questionable.

    *Driving drunk is a reckless and immoral act. Doing it repeatedly is even worse. Alcoholism may be a reason, but it’s not a fucking excuse. Ty Lawson makes a lot of money, he’s got options for getting home. He’s a fucking asshole.

    This misses just about all nuance of what’s been discussed.

  112. interestingly the people with the intellectual capacity to understand the nuances of my comments (take Alecto, for example) seem to find them a lot less obnoxious than the people who think life is all about their grand opinions based on nothing.

    Bruh

  113. Ted I think at this time you’re unable to determine how to interact on this public internet forum in a way that’s conducive to the conversation here. Again other people have pointed out how you disrupt the conversation, with examples, and given you specific advice on how to change your behavior. Last time I asked you to take their advice to heart, but it doesn’t seem you have. Even Kahnzy’s most recent attempt seems to have fallen on deaf ears.

    Considering that you’ve posted here in the past successfully (very successfully I might add), I’m at a complete loss to why you’re incapable of having a normal discussion now. Quite honestly, you are trolling so effectively I feel as if someone is playing a practical joke on me. Maybe Robert or Jim has changed your password & is having a good time? Perhaps something has changed outside of this blog that has caused you to be so nit-picky and abrasive?

    That aside, you are disrupting the interactions between the commenters here. I’m asking that if you can’t have a proper discussion here, to please refrain from commenting before I am forced to ban you.

  114. Ted,

    If you’ve been diagnosed in the past as having Asperger’s Syndrome, I suggest you communicate with Mike off-line via eMail to discuss your situation. I, in no way, intend this comment to be disparaging or judgmental in any way.

  115. Even Kahnzy’s most recent attempt seems to have fallen on deaf ears.

    Come on, man. Kahnzy’s “attempt” was admittedly to annoy me. He literally said he was trying to annoy me. There was little substance to just about anything he said. One sentence probably would have gotten the point across a lot more effectively: ” I think you’re being annoying.” And that’s fine.

    Again other people have pointed out how you disrupt the conversation, with examples, and given you specific advice on how to change your behavior.

    For the love of god!!!! Stop telling me to heed the advice of every other person on the internet. If you’d like me to do something, communicate it to me. Stop telling me to read dozens of different comments with varying degrees of validity and do what every single one of them tells me.

    It is the height of irony to tell me to stop giving other people advice on how to comment and at the same time to tell me to take all of their advice. Please stop with the heard mentality argument. It is illogical for similar reasons to why appeals to authority are.

    I’m at a complete loss to why you’re incapable of having a normal discussion now. Quite honestly, you are trolling so effectively I feel as if someone is playing a practical joke on me.

    I’m quite capable of having normal conversations. I have had many productive conversations here in the past two weeks. I’ve also had many unproductive conversations. Is that partially my fault? Yes. Is it entirely? No. Stop acting like I am crazy for responding to comments addressed to me in totally polite ways. If you think I’m doing something wrong, provide an example.

    That aside, you are disrupting the interactions … before I am forced to ban you.

    On what grounds? “Some people don’t like you, I’m going to ban you.”

  116. In my world, it is a fact five DUI’s makes you an asshole, shithead, scumbag, and every other nasty general adjective you can think of. Being an alcoholic does not in any shape, way, or form mitigate that fact. But that’s my world. We can all have different definitions about what constitutes an asshole.

    One part of my personal definition of “asshole” is: repeatedly makes horrible choices that violate the trust or endangers the welfare of family, friends, colleagues, and society as a whole.

    Another is: continually pollutes the social environment with unsolicited, unwelcomed criticism, or is constantly on some kind of a petty moral crusade, or is oblivious to or affronted by constructive criticism, regardless how respected the source or widespread the opinion.

    We all get to set our own bar for assholeness. Anyone who thinks otherwise is an asshole. Just my opinion.

  117. having an opinion either way runs directly counter to my argument that we need more information to have any meaningful opinion. I can’t possibly have an opinion about whether the Knicks should get Lawson until I have some idea what’s wrong with the dude/how it’s likely to impact his job performance going forward and what the cost to acquire him is.

    Ah but you can have an opinion and, in fact, you do. People make provisional judgments, i.e. form opinions, about a gazillion things every day based on the imperfect cues they observe in their dynamic environment. Those largely automatic cognitive processes are not optional. They are hardwired into us all be because they’re necessary for navigating the world. The accuracy of those provisional opinions varies with the correlation of the cues we observe to the criterion they imperfectly reflect and with the soundness of our reasoning about them. In special cases, (law, medicine, organizational decisions) the costs of extra information gathering and formal reasoning processes are justified by the consequences. In sports blogs, not so much. Conversations can improve our provisional opinions by including other people’s observations and reasoning. Intelligent, respectful and humorous conversations are both useful for that purpose and a blast.

    You contend that people shouldn’t hold or express provisional opinions based on unreliable information. You express contempt for them and any opinions you think are less than fully justified even though this is a blog rather than a court or a lab or a boardroom. Not a blast. More like a big meandering acrimonious drag actually, at least from my perspective.

    I’d rather you stick around so I encourage you to take a risk. Try stating your opinions straight up. Focus less on why other’s opinions aren’t justified. Poke holes in logic or correct factual errors sparingly, and try doing so in a friendly humorous way. What have you got to…

  118. Ah but you can have an opinion and, in fact, you do.

    Come on, what I meant was that I will not have a yes/no opinion on whether the Knicks should acquire him. I won’t. I think it’s really, really stupid to, in fact. I have *an opinion*… sure… it is that the Knicks should look into the guy. I have no opinion on what their actual decision should be and if you’re saying that I do… I strongly disagree. I have a framework in mind through which they should evaluate the situation. Without knowing the results of that evaluation process, though, it would be really stupid to have a strong opinion. I have never once interacted with Ty Lawson. I’ve never even discussed Ty Lawson with someone who has interacted with him. I have no idea what Denver wants in return for Lawson, or even if they’re just going to cut the guy.

    The accuracy of those provisional opinions varies with the correlation of the cues we observe to the criterion they imperfectly reflect and with the soundness of our reasoning about them.

    One thing I am saying is that at a certain point, the correlation is so low that forming a definitive opinion is actually counter-productive. You have no idea if you’re right, so leading with pre-conceived notions is dangerous.

    In sports blogs, not so much. Conversations can improve our provisional opinions by including other people’s observations and reasoning. Intelligent, respectful and humorous conversations are both useful for that purpose and a blast.

    I think that any such conversation would be about the conditions under which you would/wouldn’t acquire Lawson. Which is why I tried to steer the conversation in that direction. I don’t think guessing wildly at what kind of influence Lawson would have without even knowing what he’d cost is a conversation that fits your criteria.

  119. Again, when you look past the surface this is questionable.

    If it was merely a question of system or coaching you’d expect to see a decline in the first year but not in the second. In his second Shaw year there’s a bump up in assists, everything else declines. Could he experience a jump in effectiveness this coming season? Sure, anything’s possible. Is it likely? No, it’s much more likely that he’s peaked and is now slowly declining. Is he a good PG for a solid team with a hole at the 1? Obviously. But on a rebuilding team he’s a waste of a spot.

    This misses just about all nuance of what’s been discussed.

    It doesn’t miss shit. There’s simply no excuse for driving drunk. When you’ve been repeatedly arrested for DUI you are clearly an immoral asshole – regardless of the circumstances – and you’ve had more than your fair share of second chances and wake-up calls. That’s not the same as saying that alcoholics are bad people, or that you should never hire alcoholics. Jerry Sloan got wasted basically every night in SLC, always walked home, was still a great coach and was not recklessly endangering the people around him.

  120. You contend that people shouldn’t hold or express provisional opinions based on unreliable information. You express contempt for them and any opinions you think are less than fully justified even though this is a blog rather than a court or a lab or a boardroom.

    You’re strawmaning me here a bit. I never said people need perfect information to have an opinion. (Though a lot of people seem to pretend that I have said that.) I have been saying that people need some sort of reliable information, and I have also said that I would prefer people clearly distinguish opinion from fact.

    Not a blast. More like a big meandering acrimonious drag actually, at least from my perspective.

    I don’t disagree. I hate these conversations. 100%. Mostly it’s me trying to clarify that I did not say what the person is implying and, in fact, said something slightly different. It’s the worst for me. That said, I’m not going to simply let people misrepresent what I’ve said without trying to explain what I’ve said. There are a few commenters in this thread who have been at least as “obnoxious” as me, yet I have not seen one person call them out.

    Try stating your opinions straight up.

    Again… I think you are missing my point here entirely. My opinion is that your “opinion” (as in, your opinion on what decision the team should make) should be almost entirely contingent on at least cursory intelligence gathering. If someone said “I’m leaning against signing the guy because he sure seems like an ass and a negative lockerroom presence…” I’m totally cool with that. When someone says “he’s a terrible guy and I would never sign him or Jax will never sign him…” I feel obliged to point out that the situation is a bit more complex than that.

  121. Poke holes in logic or correct factual errors sparingly

    One last thing… I often do it once, then the other person is as much at fault for continuing the conversation as I am… then four other people feel like jumping in.

  122. “so leading with pre-conceived notions is dangerous.”

    Ted – Look, this is a sports blog. Nothing we do here is dangerous. It’s not like we are discussing the right way to defuse a bomb. I really have a hard time even imagining taking anything said here that seriously.

  123. If it was merely a question of system or coaching you’d expect to see a decline in the first year but not in the second. In his second Shaw year there’s a bump up in assists, everything else declines. Could he experience a jump in effectiveness this coming season? Sure, anything’s possible. Is it likely? No, it’s much more likely that he’s peaked and is now slowly declining. Is he a good PG for a solid team with a hole at the 1? Obviously. But on a rebuilding team he’s a waste of a spot.

    His shooting efficiency decline the past two seasons appears to be a shot selection issue. If Shaw’s system calls for Lawson to shoot a higher number of long-2s (or Shaw simply isn’t setting a system and Lawson has poor shot selection when uncoached), then this is not actually something that you’d expect to see change in the second year under the same coach.

    If Lawson stops taking so many long-2s then it is overwhelmingly likely his efficiency will jump next season.

    Why is a good player a waste of a spot on a bad team? I would say that his marginal impact on the Knicks would be far greater than on a good team. Adding another good player could have a huge impact on the Knicks.

    It doesn’t miss shit. There’s simply no excuse for driving drunk. When you’ve been repeatedly arrested for DUI you are clearly an immoral asshole – regardless of the circumstances – and you’ve had more than your fair share of second chances and wake-up calls.

    No. That does miss all nuance. Being 1% over the limit, say, is not the same thing as being shitfaced and driving. You have 2, 3 drinks in an hour and you might be over the legal limit. That’s a bad decision, but it’s not the same reckless decision as having 10 drinks in an hour and driving. On the other hand, having a disease where you enter a fugue state and are not in control of your actions is a real problem… but doesn’t necessarily make you an “immoral asshole.”

  124. Ted – Look, this is a sports blog. Nothing we do here is dangerous. It’s not like we are discussing the right way to defuse a bomb. I really have a hard time even imagining taking anything said here that seriously.

    Come on, man. Do you really think I meant dangerous in that sense?

    I meant that it’s a dangerous line of thinking in the context of our conversations. I feel that it impairs a conversation, which is the main reason that I bring it up. It’s like, it’s not that I disagree with you… it’s that we’re talking about two totally different things. To discuss this we would first have to be discussing the same thing. The conversation never gets there with a lot of people.

    I also think that some of these people might benefit from thinking about things in a different way in their lives outside of this blog.

  125. When someone says “he’s a terrible guy and I would never sign him or Jax will never sign him…” I feel obliged to point out that the situation is a bit more complex than that.

    Well, my sense is that the general opinion of most here is that you don’t need to feel obliged to do so.

  126. Well, my sense is that the general opinion of most here is that you don’t need to feel obliged to do so.

    Seriously? After all the lectures people are delivering to me, you feel like you should sit there and tell me what to feel and what not to feel?

    Please do me a favor and don’t butt in at the very end of an extremely long discussion with your two cents. If we want to talk about annoying…

    If someone doesn’t like my comments, they are free to ignore them. If someone repeatedly replies to my comment, I’m not going to stop the discussion if I don’t feel like it. (Now… should I feel like it more? Yes. The other person is as free to stop responding as I am, though.)

  127. Ted – I understand you don’t mean physically dangerous. Not trying to take you out of context. I was really just trying to reference the extent to which you think it necessary to critique how others think and argue their positions. To me, it seems pretty over the top.

    I think you could simply have said, “Despite the fact he has had a history of driving under the influence, it might be worth investigating signing Ty Lawson. He’s been a great player in the past and looking into his character might reveal extenuating circumstances or a genuine willingness to get help and turn himself around.”

    And just leave it there you know….

  128. Listen, I am really going to try to stop getting into long-winded discussions of my commenting style that have nothing to do with basketball. That’s going to be really hard, though, if people keep turning every thread into a referendum on my commenting style. I would really prefer to discuss basketball related matters. I think that if you go through most threads you’re going to find that I was discussing basketball-related matters only until some aside I made got turned into the main topic of conversation.

  129. I think you could simply have said, “Despite the fact he has had a history of driving under the influence, it might be worth investigating signing Ty Lawson. He’s been a great player in the past and looking into his character might reveal extenuating circumstances or a genuine willingness to get help and turn himself around.”

    And just leave it there you know….

    Probably could have. And that is what I said multiple times. In response I got a few people telling me what an awful person he is, I tried to explain both that the situation is a bit more complex than that and that it’s only so relevant to whether the Knicks should acquire him, 50 comments later the thread somehow became a referendum on how I need to stop calling out other people and how much of an annoying asshole I am. I’m not going to pretend I’ve never made annoying comments, but I truly believe that I was just responding to other people’s comments in a fairly reasonable way here for the most part. Asking people to consider any nuance at all or to provide any evidence at all somehow gets turned into some image of me as criticizing every single person who says anything without 100% perfect information. I don’t believe that’s at all what I’ve done.

    Mike thinks I’ve gone downhill… but I really think this place has gone downhill. Only a small portion of commenters seem to have any interest in real analysis.

  130. Mike thinks I’ve gone downhill… but I really think this place has gone downhill. Only a small portion of commenters seem to have any interest in real analysis.

    Yes, this place went downhill… THE MINUTE YOU CAME BACK HERE.

    Seriously, every single fucking day is some other long, pointless horseshit argument about nothing other than Ted Nelson’s hurt little feelings. Somebody please break out the banhammer. This place is starting to suck massive elephant dongs. Enough is enough already. PLEASE END OUR LONG NATIONAL NIGHTMARE GAAAAAAAHG LKJDAFKJHDSPOIUYDSOIUV

  131. this is not actually something that you’d expect to see change in the second year under the same coach.

    Which was my point. Lawson declined from .554 to .526 with slightly lower usage from his first Shaw year to his second.

    Being 1% over the limit, say, is not the same thing as being shitfaced and driving.

    So drinking and driving is okay in moderation? Are you sure that you want to be arguing that? Keep in mind that the national statistics indicate that the average person who’s arrested for DUI drove drunk 80 times before that arrest. If Lawson conforms to the median and if your supposition is correct then he’s been driven while only slightly above the limit something on the order of 400 times. We know he was drinking and driving in 2008, if we back date it to when he was 16 he’d only have been doing that less than 40 times a year! That’s less than once a week! Move along folks, no immoral asshole to see here.

    having a disease where you enter a fugue state and are not in control of your actions is a real problem

    That’s absolutely true, and also a big assumption as to whether he is an alcoholic or not. But when you’ve had this behavior called out multiple times via the medium of being arrested for drinking and driving and yet you continue to put yourself in situations where you will drink and drive you don’t get to blame the disease – you are responsible for everything that led up to that situation. If he is an alcoholic then he should seek and receive treatment, but he’s still an immoral asshole.

  132. I can’t think of a coach who disappointed me more than Brian Shaw. I thought he was going to be an excellent head coach. The only other head coach I recall missing so badly on was Terry Porter (Porter was worse than Shaw – especially since I think Shaw is still a top of the line assistant coach while Porter is not even coaching anymore).

  133. Even though they are dissimilar by body type and Zinger isn’t a good rebounder, his skills mimic one of Jackson’s teammates in the 70’s the great Jerry Lucas as a hybrid 4/5 who excelled from the high post on offense.

  134. As far as Lawson is concerned, we have the best guy in charge (Jackson) to make that judgment. He has gotten the very best out of nutjobs like Artest, Odom and Rodman and mentally weak types like Kukoc and likely has a better feel for what is worth the risk in the locker room dynamic and what isn’t. I am certainly happy to go with his judgment.

  135. Grocer,

    Re: Lawson. Again, when you look beyond the aggregate I think you will see indications that his skills did not decline. He took 4 or 5 more heaves, which decreased his 3P% by almost a perceptage point but tell us nothing at all about how he’ll shoot going forward. Likewise, if his efficiency decreased in one distance range but not the adjoining two ranges… That could well be noise.

    Averages hide a lot of trends.

    Re: DUIs. Let me restate my point. It is not that Lawson is a great dude. It is that 4 DUIs (one of which had him under the legal limit) is insufficient evidence on which to make a moral judgement on the situation. I am not saying he is a social drinker who likes to speed and has had poor luck with getting pulled over. Likewise I am not saying he is a severe alcoholic who has been to rehab almost every offseason then falls off the wagon and gets busted for DUIs. I am saying that those are possibilities. We need more details to know. I have no idea what the details are.

    In terms of general morality… I think having, say, 3 beers in an hour and driving is a fairly amoral decision. There is no moral line between 2 and 3 beers. There’s a legal line because it has to be set somewhere. Do the odds I cause an accident at 3 beers go up significantly vs. 2 beers? I really doubt it. (I have zero DUIs, fyi. I do know people who have DUIs, though, and they’re not all terrible people.)

    And, anyway, this whole discussion is an aside only loosely related to my actual point.

  136. In terms of general morality… I think having, say, 3 beers in an hour and driving is a fairly amoral decision.

    Ted – Point taken. There are things that you can say here that actually are dangerous.

    I assume that comment was some sort of thought experiment?

  137. It is that 4 DUIs (one of which had him under the legal limit) is insufficient evidence on which to make a moral judgement on the situation.

    So, then what’s the magic number? How many DUI’s must a person receive before there is sufficient evidence to make a moral judgment on the situation? Must there be some tragedy first? Or are these some no harm, no foul, situations?

    Maybe it’s just me, but I think 4 DUI’s is sufficient evidence to conclude that the man is a supremely selfish moronic asshole who, quite frankly, should be thrown in jail, not making millions of dollars to go away and be someone else’s headache. And I am quite comfortable making that moral judgment having never met the man. I am also quite comfortable making that moral judgment having had a family member who actually was an adict (so I’m quite aware that addiction can make someone do some pretty awful things, so spare me the morality lecture when you seem to think drunk driving isn’t quite so big a deal). I don’t think I need to meet every person who’s ever done something bad to conclude whether or not they’re someone I want anything to do with, either personally or on my favorite sports team.

    As far as how this pertains to basketball…well rootability does matter to some people. I, for one, am quite glad I don’t have to watch JR Smith and Ray Felton anymore. If that makes me a bad person to you, I’m ok with that.

  138. If someone doesn’t like my comments, they are free to ignore them.

    Just to let you know, jon abbey was banned for outwardly telling people not to read this blog. In a way, you just did too.

  139. If someone doesn’t like my comments, they are free to ignore them.

    It’s kind of impossible to ignore the comments when they make up like one third of the entire blog, and the other two thirds is people responding to the comments. But I’m gonna take him up on that– I’m ignoring him from now on and will try to pick out the small slivers of non-Ted Nelson related content that remain on this blog.

  140. Just because I say the sky is blue doesn’t mean someone has to come along and argue that the sky really doesn’t have a color and its actually the way the light hits the water molecules that are in air.

    God my head hurts after reading these comments.

  141. Owen, what is the moral distinction that makes two beers in an hour ok and 3 not ok? I don’t there is. Legally it’s black and white. Morally they are two marginally different shades of grey.

    Kahnzy, My point was that there is no number. You can get zero DUIs and be totally immoral. You can get a dozen and not be particularly immoral.

    Whether you want anything to do with someone and whether they are immoral are two very different things.

    Donnie, You don’t have to read my comments =\= don’t read this blog.

    JK47, 2/3 of the comments being directed at me is not really something I see as a “me” problem. I have no interest in being the center of attention.

    bidiong, I think that’s exactly the kind of comment that’s causing a lot of the issues here. I made very pointed comments. I didn’t wildly go after every single comment. That sub-conversation became the focus of the thread… But that’s only something I have so much control over.

  142. Donnie, You don’t have to read my comments =\= don’t read this blog.

    Speaking of missed nuance.

    2/3 of the comments being directed at me is not really something I see as a “me” problem.

    Yeah, that’s pretty much the heart of the problem, I think.

  143. Anyone remember the scene in the movie As Good as it Gets where Jack Nicholson mutters “last word freak” under his breath?

  144. Donnie,

    What nuance did I miss? You said that in a way I told people not to read this blog, when in fact I said that people should feel welcome to ignore certain comments on this blog.

    The heart of the problem is that I don’t think I have control over what 2/3 of the commenters on here (by volume) choose to write about? As fun as your sassy, cryptic, rude little one liners are… How about actually explaining your point once in a while?

  145. With respect, what you do have control over is your own comments. I don’t see why there’s a need to pore over every single statement other commenters make, taking most of them as personal attacks worthy of taking up arms to defend your honor, and addressing them point by point. This is a basketball blog, and it would be nice if the long-winded discussions were more about how Lawson would fit on the court with Carmelo, rather than someone crying injustice and persecution with regard to how other commenters respond to him. It’s the internet. Maybe a degree of thick skin or whatever would be useful.

    Just my two cents.

  146. Z-man,

    You have something to say, or you want to keep laying out underhanded insults to someone you’ve literally had zero interaction with in this thread?

    People come on here with no other purpose than to insult me, it is perfectly permissible, and in fact it is my fault. What a joke.

  147. triplewfg,

    That type of hyperbole doesn’t help to advance the conversation. Did I really respond to every line of every comment that everyone posted on here? No. I had a few discrete conversations that took on a life of their own and somehow turned me rather than Ty Lawson into the topic of conversation. I am very much in control of my own comments. I ask people to pinpoint where I made inappropriate comments, and no one bothers to respond (save one guy who posted like 50 excerpts that didn’t have much to do with his point).

    If you read through the thread, you will see that I was indeed discussing Lawson as a basketball player. Other people brought up the non-basketball aspects of the conversation. I did not “cry injustice” until Mike decided to chime in for no reaI other than to single me out and call me out.

    Thick skin with what? What does thick skin have to do with discussing Ty Lawson and DUIs? Not responding to people who respond to you means you have a thick skin? At some point people literally started posting comments that had no subject other than calling me an asshole and lobbing other insults at it… I’m not sure that responding to that kind of crap in a measured way means you don’t have thick skin, but if I don’t… so be it?

  148. Dude, not everything is an insult. You are acting childish and doing nothing to advance the conversation. In fact, you are doing nothing but disrupting any basketball related conversation from taking place. You come on here to insult me, I call you out on it, you insult me some more… Why?

    DRed, couldn’t agree more.

  149. Z-Man, Are you 5 years old?

    Hey, I thought sassy, cryptic, rude little one-liners was my thing!

  150. I looked it up. At Lawson’s body weight, he’d need more than 5 drinks in an hour to get above the legal limit. But hey, you think that drinking and driving is generally okay as long as you’re not ‘wasted’, and you’d like to wait for more information instead of doing a quick google to check for info first. Like the fact that while Lawson’s 3pt% declined, he took half a shot less from 3 per 36 last season than the one before – he wasn’t taking 4-5 heaves, the biggest impact on his TS% was that he stopped getting to the line and posted a career low FT%. To me that’s a guy who’s probably hit his peak and has lost a step and is probably looking at a slow decline till he hits 30ish where he’ll drop off fast. Right when the Knicks are in the best case scenario looking at contending again. Why would the team want to spend energy and a valuable space on him again? Oh right, you weren’t arguing that, you were arguing that all opinions are equally worthless regardless of how much information we have because we can’t possibly know anything. Seems like a pointless way to engage with the team I inexplicably love to me, but to each their own I guess. Until there’s a fatal accident and we have to eat his salary and tons of negative press of course.

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