NY Post: Tom Thibodeau didn’t look pleased as flat Knicks fall to Bulls

From Marc Berman:

Tom Thibodeau isn’t used to losing in Chicago. So no wonder the former Bulls coach looked more hostile than usual Monday night at United Center, lashing out at referees and his players in a dispiriting 110-102 loss to the mediocre Bulls.

The Bulls broke a three-game losing streak as Thibodeau’s club fell to a season-worst four games under .500 at 9-13. The Knicks coach said the club didn’t play with “great effort for an extended period of time.’’

The Knicks have lost five of six games as they had defensive breakdowns, offensive breakdowns and even Thibodeau’s postgame Zoom call got interrupted, sustaining technical difficulties due to Bulls’ arena issues.

The Knicks were as cold as a snowstorm from the 3-point line (6 of 29) and didn’t come up with any clutch scoring plays late. They looked flat to start the game and fell behind by 11 points in the opening quarter, then came out in a fog to begin the third quarter and a four-point halftime deficit grew to 11 again.

“I just think we’ve got to mentally lock in and get off to better starts, first and third,’’ said Julius Randle, who finished with 23 points, 11 rebound and seven assists. “Specifically the third, we dig ourselves out of holes. We’ve got to come out with more of a sense of urgency.’’

That was a rough loss. They really were flat for so much of the game and hoo boy, this offense is, well, you know, not good.

There seems to be a bit too much smoke about Zach LaVine. How would a trade for Zach LaVine make any sense with the Knicks? He’s not going to come cheap, so what is the point? I’m not necessarily against trading some of their assets for a star, but Zach LaVine is, you know, not a star. That’s why the Bulls are willing to trade him in the first place!

With each game being Game 7, this one must have really hurt Thibs, since it was to Chicago. Hopefully Thibs gets his revenge on Wednesday.

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272 thoughts to “NY Post: Tom Thibodeau didn’t look pleased as flat Knicks fall to Bulls”

  1. “I just think we’ve got to mentally lock in and get off to better starts, first and third,’’
    Thanks Julius, what a coincidence, just when the starting five plays…

    I’m angrier than Thibs, bad loss yesterday.

    Playing Elfrid Payton (AKA The Plague Who Can’t Be Trasmitted, because he has a NTC) and Bullock in the starting five is like give away two players to any opponent.
    A lot of times the bench spend its time trying to crawl back from the hole made by the starters.

    IQ, Burks, RJ, Randle, Mitch.

    That’s the starting five, everything else is a futile exercise in self-eroticism.
    You play your best five versus the other team best five and the bench versus their bench. Payton and Bullock could play better if used on opponents’ reserves.

    I’d rather use some of Plague, Bullock and Rivers minutes on Knox and Frank and raise a little bit Obi’s playing time.

    I’d like to talk about Mitch, I went team-by-team to find out where I think he stands in the Center pick list and came out a bit disappointed for a player that many on this site hailed as a surefire All-Star, the most efficient player in the league and probably an HOFer, but that’s for another post.

    Another good game for Dallas, way to go boys.

    First start of Lamelo’s career, but it was Malik Monk, scared from the rumors about a Knicks’ trade (Joke alert: we kid about a trade for him yesterday), who saved the day in Charlotte.

    The Drummond-less Cavs thanks Jarrett Allen and the KAT-less TWolves are a mess.

    The Rockets won their sixth in a row, while New Orleans blew the game in the fourth, but that’s what happens when you are forced to play WHG 29 minutes (albeit he played well in the first half). Hali didn’t shoot well but rebounded and assisted.

    Memphis trounced the Spurs with nine players in double figure and everyone playing in the 20-28 min range, simply fantastic. And they’re missing JJJ and Valanciunas… Ja Morant deserves his ROY.

  2. I’d like to talk about Mitch, I went team-by-team to find out where I think he stands in the Center pick list and came out a bit disappointed for a player that many on this site hailed as a surefire All-Star, the most efficient player in the league and maybe and HOFer, but that’s for another post.

    Okay, by “many,” find me one person who said that Mitch was a surefire All-Star.

  3. Brian Cronin: Okay, by “many,” find me one person who said that Mitch was a surefire All-Star.

    Please allows me the time to check on 600 threads :-)

    Okay, let’s say I misread or misrembember the quote (I’m sure someone wrote a sentence about Mitch and HOF but no matter).
    Even if is “All-Star” and “most efficient player in the league” it’s enough for my argument.
    And I like Mitch!

    :-)

  4. I think when engaged is fundamental for our defense,
    he’s made strides on not fouling and contesting without always try to block,
    he’s penalized for playing in an offense that rarely used the pick and roll to give him chances
    and for playing with Randle and RJ, who need space in the paint.

    At the same time there are things he must get better at.

    Do we resign him at the end of the season? (Yes!)
    How much will we pay for him? (That’s the interesting part for me)

  5. [reposting because I didn’t realize we had a new thread]

    I don’t think any of us is saying Mitch is a star, Z-Man. I think many of us think if he’s developed right, he can be a good center, like the 18M centers (eg. Myles Turner or Clint Capela). That’s a good player to have, isn’t it?

    As improved as Mitch is defensively, is this version of him worth $18 million in the modern NBA? Turner has a much more versatile and consistent offensive game, and Danny Ainge wouldn’t take him basically for free in a Hayward sign-and-trade. Capela has gone off in this recent stretch of games in a way that suggests the platonic ideal of Mitch — or, at least, a version of Mitch who gets featured in the pick-and-roll much more often than the actual Mitch — and I’m still not sure how many teams in the league would want to take on that contract. Unless a guy is a Gobert-level game changer of a defender — which Mitch can be, but isn’t right now, especially night to night — there’s just a limit on how much the league currently values centers who are limited on offense. Mitch is a fantastic player to have on his current contract, and would be great to still have if his next contract was in, say, the $10-14 million range. Once it starts creeping above that, though, he’s a guy you can’t move as well as someone whose deal makes it harder to acquire other players to place around him.

    All of which is me saying that I’ve gone from wanting to tear out what’s left of my hair if the team were to trade Mitch, to being at peace with the idea depending on the circumstances and return.

  6. Is Mitch not showing enough competence in practice to add some 8 foot jumpers, post-up moves or one dribble drives to his in-game offensive repertoire ? Or is Thibs making Mitch focus on his current skill set and improving it? Either way, Mitch’s development is stunted and he looks frustrated. This blah season is the perfect opportunity to see what he can or can’t do.

  7. Dallas with another great loss last night.

    Think shit is going to hit the fan there soon. Good for us!

  8. djphan: that’s why a 3 year deal for cp3 wouldn’t be all that crazy.. if he can avoid injury…

    dj, you keep talking about Chris Paul like he’s a free agent this summer so much that it’s making me doubt what is certain: he still has a $45mm player option for next season.

    You think he’s going to decline that? Or you think we’re going to make it worth his while to do so?

    I fucking love the guy, but it would probably take a 3 year, $100mm deal to get him to waive that option. I ain’t into that.

  9. I like Mitch a lot. But let’s be real: he’s going to need to start hitting 3’s if he wants to get paid. That’s just the way it is.

    I’m not paying this version of him more than $8mm (or
    whatever the veteran mid-level is).

  10. Hubert:
    I like Mitch a lot. But let’s be real: he’s going to need to start hitting 3’s if he wants to get paid. That’s just the way it is.

    He needs to start doing anything on offense besides dunking the ball, honestly. Whether his current game is the fault of his own limitations or the limitations of Thibs’ offensive imagination, I don’t know. But on a team where spacing is already an issue, Mitch creates more fit problems on that end, even as he’s so important to our defense.

  11. My point is that Mitch is a lot closer to Noel than Gobert. He a turbocharged version of the garden variety pogo stick 5. That’s a valuable player, but not anywhere near untouchable.

  12. Side note: I don’t think I’ve ever had less patience for a player than I do with Obi Toppin. I gave Frank 2.5 years, and I still haven’t given up on Knox, but holy shit have I got no time for this guy. Someone asked why he only got 9 minutes last night. Did you see those 9 minutes?

    I sincerely hope Leon Rose’s son signs some better clients before the next draft.

  13. Wasserman’s new mock draft is up. Amusingly, he has us taking Sharife Cooper with the Mavs pick, after Sam Vecenie yesterday had us taking him with our own pick. He then has us going with Moses Moody from Arkansas at 11, so it’s still about us pairing Cooper with a shooter. In the second round, he goes with Justin Champagnie from Pitt and Sandro Mamukelashvili from Seton Hall.

    I don’t subscribe to ESPN , but Givony has a new mock draft there, too.

  14. Obi still looks lost on D. He’s also competing with the best player on the team for minutes. So long as he isn’t benched completely I’m good with his limited minutes.

  15. IQ, Burks, RJ, Randle, Mitch.

    The problem with that starting lineup is that we’d be sacrificing some defense to get ALL our scorers on the court at the same time. That’s going to lead to better offense, but not as big an offensive jump as you’d intuitively think. Second, we need two units. We have to have some scoring off the bench or the 2nd unit will get killed.

    Thibs is CORRECTLY trying to create 2 balanced lineups, but with a team of players lacking shooters and talent. So you do the best you can.

    We could probably move Quickley to the starting lineup, leave Bullock in as a starter, and have Burkes as a 6th man scorer. But the 2nd unit would still have a lot of trouble scoring or someone would have to play a lot of minutes and then everyone would start whining about that.

    The issue isn’t the lineups. The issue is the lack of shooters and two way players. The way to fix that is to try to get a high quality player to NY via trade at the deadline.

  16. Its becoming pretty apparent that IQ needs to start. Elf is really sucking the life out of the starting 5. I’m sure he’s in his head even more now that IQ is gunning for the starting spot but they need to rip the band aid and move him to the bench already. IF he sulks even more, trade him. He’ll waive his NTC clause I’m sure. If not, cut him. I’d rather run out Pinson or Frank as the back up PG or pick someone else up.

    Quickley is part of the future. Enough already. Even if he moves to the 6th man role next year after we draft another PG (if we do), him getting minutes with RJ, Randle and Mitch is super important. I also think Quickley could help unlock Mitch. He’s just a flat out better player than Elf.

  17. Thing about Thibs is that he seems to be an inertia coach. If something is working he will stick with it. So if you want to see IQ in the starting lineup, games like last night will help.

  18. dj, you keep talking about Chris Paul like he’s a free agent this summer so much that it’s making me doubt what is certain: he still has a $45mm player option for next season.

    if he keeps playing like this then why wouldn’t he opt out? if he can secure a 3 year … or gasp 4.,… why wouldn’t he take that?

    it’s not some definite thing but very possible….

  19. i kind of stopped looking at other mocks… because i keep seeing ziaire williams in the top 10 or brandon boston in the lottery and these guys haven’t played like good college players … let alone nba players… all season…. and i think that’s a signal that most folks are still not paying much attention to the college game this season and just copying each other’s mocks….

  20. I’ve been saying Mitch is overrated HERE for as long as everyone has been jumping out of their skin over him because he’s efficient dunking and showing well on stats models. He’s an athletic freak, but if all you can do is dunk and put back OREBs, you are going to get shut down on a lot of nights (especially against STARTERS). Also, he was piling up blocks early in his career because he was TRYING to block every shot. That looked great on the stat sheet, but it also took him out of position defensively some of the time (so they scored in other ways) and lead to extra fouls.

    He’s young and can get a lot better, but this is his 3rd year and he’s not doing a single thing better on offense yet (or at least showing it yet). He’s playing a little smarter defensively. That’s about it. I have no problem with him. I like him a lot. But imo he’s not untouchable in a trade for a star player. If you ask me Noel is the better defender at this stage and is also young even if Mitch will eventually be the much better player. If they put Mitch in a deal with some picks to get a legit star, I’d sign off.

  21. djphan: if he keeps playing like this then why wouldn’t he opt out? if he can secure a 3 year … or gasp 4.,… why wouldn’t he take that?

    I suppose the next question then is what would you offer him. It would have to be enough to get him to turn that option down, but not so much that it cripples us.

    3 years is off the table for me. But… if we pick up two lottery picks this year, I’d be ready to start competing, and he would make everyone better. I’d offer him two years, $80mm, frontloaded as much as possible within cap restraints, with a team option for year 3.

    That would likely open up a host of trade possibilities to add a more age appropriate superstar during the life of his short contract. I can see us ending up in a good place when he leaves, despite the overpay.

  22. I’ve been fine with the way Thibs has used IQ so far but I’ve now come around to the idea that he needs to start. It’s simple math at this point as his minutes are creeping up and up – last night he payed over 30 for the first time – it’s very difficult for a guy to play that much off the bench without his stints being extremely long. Last night IQ played the last 16 minutes of the first half and the last 14 of the second half and that’s just too much consecutive time without a break to have that be your regular rotation (and that’s ignoring that his minutes are still trending higher and we know Thibs likes to play his favorites 35+ regularly). If he’s going to routinely break 30 minutes (and it sure looks like it’s headed that way) he either needs to start or check in after 2-3 minutes so he can get two segments in each half. If those are the options you may as well start him.

    One other topic I wanted to discuss on IQ: now that it seems we have one of the premiere floppers/bullshit artists in the game on our side, how is everyone feeling about it? I always assumed that it was the kind of thing that drove you nuts when they were on other teams but that didn’t bother you at all when it’s your guy, but I have to admit I still am a bit bothered by it. There was that play last night that Breen remarked on where with about 5 minutes left I think IQ came off a pick and had an open 3 to give the Knicks the lead and instead of focusing on making the shot he’s trying to ninja kick his trailing defender to draw a cheap foul. If he’d gotten the call I’d have been pumping my fist I guess given the situation but I just think it kind of sucks. My basketball ethics is always going to trend towards “Would you be risking getting punched in the face if you pulled that shit in a random NYC pickup run?” It’s not enough to kill my IQ buzz by any means but it’s a bit of a bummer to me that it’s such a big part of his game. Anyone else feeling the same/different?

  23. if cp3 keeps playing like this? 3 / 80? i’m not sure…

    the larger question is that we have a window where we will have cap room before RJ’s extension basically…. if we’re not continually punting on randle and mitch or rj for that matter… if you think we should recycle everyone then signing anyone probably doesn’t make sense for you….

    but if you want to keep this core around… it’s basically spend money next year or probably not playing the FA game for awhile… that’s why we should try to go up the win curve next year…

  24. Dallas right now has like the 5th or 6th worst record in the league win percentage wise.

    Its going to be epic if that pick ends up in the top 5. We have a legit shot at two top 10 picks this year. Holy hell that would be amazing.

    Let’s will this into existence:

    1. Dallas continues to do poorly. We end up with a top 5 pick from them.
    2. After draft night we graciously allow them to unprotect the 2023 pick so they can trade KP or bring in some other star by trading more of their picks.
    3. That move still doesn’t move the need much next season for them.
    4. Luka walks after next season (I believe that is when his rookie contract is up.
    5. Luka signs with The Knicks.
    6. We get a top 5 pick in the 2023 draft from Dallas.

  25. I don’t think Mitchell Robinson has much trade value around the NBA, but it’s not like he doesn’t provide value. He works well in a tandem with Noel, and it’s not his fault Elfrid Payton and Reggie Bullock are no longer NBA players. The issue I have with him is he doesn’t seem to have the focus every night to change team’s game plan at the rim, and he absolutely needs to be a defensive stalwart if this team is going to take the next step. Right now the plan should be to let him play on the team option next year and let him go to UFA. If he’s replaced by Drummond or Mobley this summer, then that’s just too bad.

  26. Let me preface by saying I cancelled my cable, so my takes so far this year are via box scores, the comments you guys make, and a little youtube.

    So I was the one surprised yesterday that obi only can get 9 minutes. I hear that his D is weak. but, there has to be a way to get the guy some burn and see what he can do. I also can’t see the Bullock appear, unless he’s doing some non box score jarred jeffries / lance Thomas type shit.

    I think IQ will start soon or at least keep gaining minutes…..over the last 5 he’s at 26 mins per. Bullock needs to sit and Frank needs to get some minutes, and Obi needs to play more….somewhere. either in a small lineup w/ Randle at C or as a big 3.

  27. chriskZIPCODE:
    Let me preface by saying I cancelled my cable, so my takes so far this year are via box scores, the comments you guys make, and a little youtube.

    So I was the one surprised yesterday that obi only can get 9 minutes.I hear that his D is weak.but, there has to be a way to get the guy some burn and see what he can do.I also can’t see the Bullock appear, unless he’s doing some non box score jarred jeffries / lance Thomas type shit.

    I think IQ will start soon or at least keep gaining minutes…..over the last 5 he’s at 26 mins per.Bullock needs to sit and Frank needs to get some minutes, and Obi needs to play more….somewhere.either in a small lineup w/ Randle at C or as a big 3.

    Bullock is a much better defender than Burks, but the offense when you run Bullock & Elf is non-existent.

    I agree with Strat that you can hide Bullock if you have Quickley in the starting lineup. Maybe Bullock will be more selective with his 3s and get back up to his career average.

  28. For Mitch it’s worth throwing out there maybe that the defense has actually been slightly worse with him on the court vs. off this year. Noel is a very capable backup, and Mitch plays mostly against opposing starters so all the normal caveats with raw +/- apply but I do think the fact that he’s doing so well with the foul issue has obscured to a certain extent what a disappointing season he’s having in every other area. His #s are down absolutely across the board and after the huge layoff to come back without having added anything to his offensive game has largely ended any dreams I had of his ever becoming significantly more than a “jump and dunk” guy on that end. I think the upside case for him more and more has to involve him becoming a Gobert level of defender + PnR force. What to do with him this summer is likely to be very contentious and tricky for the front office to navigate I expect.

  29. I think it’s a legitimate question whether Mitch is better than Noel. Mitch started out much better than Noel, but the last week or 2 I’d rather have Noel out there wreaking havoc on D.

  30. So I was the one surprised yesterday that obi only can get 9 minutes. I hear that his D is weak. but, there has to be a way to get the guy some burn and see what he can do. I also can’t see the Bullock appear, unless he’s doing some non box score jarred jeffries / lance Thomas type shit.

    In preseason and on opening night we saw Thibs go with the Obi Randle frontcourt a bit but I don’t think we’ve seen it since Obi came back from his injury and as long as his minutes are just the inverse of Randle’s it’s going to be really tough for him. Randle wasn’t even particularly effective last night and played 39 minutes. Obi hasn’t been great by any means in his minutes but he also hasn’t been the level of terrible that we’ve seen from other recent lottery picks to start. He just can’t get a chance right now and I agree it’s very frustrating.

  31. It’s unfair to ask Randle to do more than he already does, but honestly I think he’s capable of scoring another 5-6pts a game efficiently.

  32. As many expected…Thibs is balls to the wall win now…as such…and as Strat pointed out above…he has his given roster chessboard in front of him with an array of deficiencies (notably nobody can shoot and he has his offense running through a guy who has no business having an nba offense run through him or the ball in his hands all the time: see MItch not getting ball)…he is trying to arrange it to maximize his low probability of winning on a given night…not maximize the development of some of the young’uns (see Toppin) or to give a more of a looksy at fringe dudes (see frank/knox) …

    With that said…if we string a few more L’s togethert…he might need to swipe the pieces away and put a fresh set of eyes on the board given the increasingly painful and obvious diminshing returns of the legal team of payton/bullock and rivers ….and take a frank/knox final gander but I think his will to win and belief that they can’t help in the short term will prevent that…

    As someone also mentioned in prior thread…Obi seems to be just put out there with no obvious role…last night he did attempt to post a few times…would like to see more of that…and if he sucks…well…at least we can accept it and move on….but he needs more time on the court

  33. djphan: if cp3 keeps playing like this? 3 / 80? i’m not sure…

    no, I said 2 years, $80mm, with a team option for year 3 (so 3 / 120 if we pick it up).

    the usual suspects will reply “35 years old blah blah blah” but that’s probably a good contract for us bc we can leverage him to get a real star.

    Paul would be our LeBron, then we’d have to work to find our Anthony Davis. But we’d have plenty of assets to do it with.

  34. I don’t regard Mitch as untouchable and agree with everyone saying we should be careful about his next contract. Having said that, it is weird that we’re not looking to get him involved even to the extent he has shown he can handle in the past.

    His USG% is a career low, and the eye-test confirms his offensive game has largely been relegated to points off offensive boards. To be fair to Thibs, Mitch also just seems a tad less sharp across the board this year. It feels like he’s not finishing bunnies that felt automatic in the past and isn’t securing a lot of potential rebounds.

    Still, it’s an enormous waste to play Payton and not heavily call for PNR with Mitch. I mean what the hell else is Payton good for, really? The RJ-Mitch PNR also seems to work pretty well whenever we go to it, but we don’t go to it much at all.

    I don’t want to sound like I’m just making excuses for Mitch as I already said I think a lot of this is on him, but some of it does boil down to our offensive scheme (or lack thereof). Seeing as how our offense is 25th in the league, you’d be hard-pressed to convince me there’s a lot to lose by running ~10 more plays a game for Mitch.

  35. Obi got yanked after he failed to box out and rebound.
    Mitch’s rim protection is down I believe because he’s been told to back off instead of foul.
    IQ opens up the court for Randle.
    Frank needs to play some. He was hitting threes and playing fairly well before his injury.

    2nd Unit:
    Payton
    Frank
    Burks
    Obi
    Noel

  36. Long way away but Cooper and Moody would be an interesting haul, I certainly wouldn’t complain. Cooper’s range of outcomes feels like Ish Smith to prime Ty Lawson right now, so I won’t even hazard a guess until we get more data on him. I think Moody is a pretty safe bet to be at least a solid 3-and-D option, with upside beyond that.

  37. As a big Mitch fan my feelings are, HOLD THE LINE!!!! (hopefully it will work better in this context than the stock market.)

    Look, I can understand some frustration with him but I also understand his (obvious) frustration. This is a guy who just BROKE THE RECORD for all time FG% and averaged a very reasonable 15 points per 36.

    He is not your average pogo stick. He literally posted some of the best numbers ever for his type of player, as a 21 year old sophomore.

    And this year, despite playing better and smarter than ever on defense (to my eye), he has been basically completely cut out of the offense. Which impacts in a very significant way how much money he will receive in his next contract, after making very little in his first three years.

    The Knicks have favored developing RJ Barrett over Mitch. Maybe that’s a good bet but I can understand Mitch resenting that.

    I hope the Knicks and Mitch patch things up and sign a 4 year 45 million dollar deal.

    Still Team Mitch but I am worried.

  38. I can’t imagine Mitch’s value around the league is much higher than Jarrett Allen’s, who just got traded for a late 1st round pick (Milwaukee’s in 2022) and a 2nd round pick. Even if Mitch’s perceived value is a bit better, I can’t imagine that the Knicks could get more than a mid-1st round pick for him.

  39. I still think we should resign Mitch but its gotta be reasonable. My main reasoning is he has shown he can be a capable starting Center on the defensive end and he is still so young. And at some point The Knicks gotta reinvest in their draft picks and extend them, right? Show some faith and give him a contract. Be reasonable about it. He’s still got A LOT of time. Remember he’s had Fizdale as his coach for half of his young career!

    But man, we gotta just pull the band aid and start Quickley already. Payton is bad but I also think he’s in his head right now because of Quickley’s rise and he might regain some mojo moving to the second unit. I’d keep Bullock starting for the defense and also to keep Burks in the second unit so there is balance in both units with outside shooting. And if Elf responds poorly to the demotion, no big deal. We can trade him (he’d want out at that point and would probably waive the NTC) or we can just cut him and bring in someone else. OR give the back up spot to Frank. He’s done well in that role.

    Even if long term Quickley is more of a 6th man, he has solidified himself as a part of the young core going forward. not that he’s untouchable but if we’re thinking about the future I think RJ, Quickley and Mitch all should be considered part of the young core. With one of Randle or Obi being part of it too. So Quickley should be getting that PT and experience with RJ, Mitch and Randle.

  40. In fairness to Mitch, he picked up several early fouls last night and probably decided to play a little more passively

  41. ‘The RJ-Mitch PNR also seems to work pretty well whenever we go to it, but we don’t go to it much at all.’

    This. With JR’s new-found ability to seemingly get to the rim at will, it feels like we should run this about every other play. The help either has to stay home to avoid the lob and JR scores, or the help comes and Pogo gets the lob. I mean, what’s the alternative — the Randle spin (and we saw WAY too much of that yesterday, speaking of Groundhog Day), or god forbid the Elf three?

  42. Raven: This. With JR’s new-found ability to seemingly get to the rim at will, it feels like we should run this about every other play. The help either has to stay home to avoid the lob and JR scores, or the help comes and Pogo gets the lob. I mean, what’s the alternative — the Randle spin (and we saw WAY too much of that yesterday, speaking of Groundhog Day), or god forbid the Elf three?

    JR is an unacceptable spelling mistake for RJ, mods please ban

  43. I know this is out of the blue but I have this particular bone to pick with Thibs. Can we please put to bed the assumption that Payton is in the starting lineup for his defense?

    Def Rating
    Elf: 113
    IQ: 111

    DBPM
    Elf: -1.4
    IQ: -0.1

    and, of course, I will just throw in my favorite comparison that is besides this point in WS/48:
    Elf: .005
    IQ: .141

  44. Ntilakilla:
    I know this is out of the blue but I have this particular bone to pick with Thibs. Can we please put to bed the assumption that Payton is in the starting lineup for his defense?

    Def Rating
    Elf: 113
    IQ: 111

    DBPM
    Elf: -1.4
    IQ: -0.1

    and, of course, I will just throw in my favorite comparison that is besides this point in WS/48:
    Elf: .005
    IQ:.141

    There’s the argument that starting PGs are much better than backup PGs and defensive numbers rely on the whole team, often misrepresenting a single individual.

    But yeah, the only reason to start Payton is to avoid locker room issues at this point. IDK, Thibs plays IQ more than Elf often enough that I’m fine with it. Plenty of rookies don’t start full time even if they’re good. Not everyone is RJ Barrett. Stealth tank roll on!!

  45. Also, 1yr DRAPM for 2021 is out on NBA Shot Charts. Extremely noisy at this sample level but:

    IQ: -0.53
    Elf: -0.76

    ORAPM
    IQ: 1.01
    Elf: -0.56

    RJ leads us in DRAPM this year (27th overall)!!!
    Bullock is 2nd, so at least his D is real (blah, blah, blah sample). Overall Burks still better due to offense.

    Mitch DRAPM: .98
    Noel: .64

    Not sure when last updated.

  46. Early Bird: There’s the argument that starting PGs are much better than backup PGs and defensive numbers rely on the whole team, often misrepresenting a single individual.

    And this is a valid point. But the thing of it is that whether or not Immanuel is benefiting from playing backups doesn’t change the fact that Payton hasn’t been a good defender. He’s not helping us there and its clear that he’s hindering our offensive spacing and movement. So what really is the point of having him start at all, especially if Thibs is going to insist upon leaving in the game for long swaths of time while the offense sputters with him handing the ball?

  47. Ntilakilla: And this is a valid point. But the thing of it is that whether or not Immanuel is benefiting from playing backups doesn’t change the fact that Payton hasn’t been a good defender. He’s not helping us there and its clear that he’s hindering our offensive spacing and movement. So what really is the point of having him start at all, especially if Thibs is going to insist upon leaving in the game for long swaths of time while the offense sputters with him handing the ball?

    It’s always possible that IQ just gets absolutely destroyed against the starters or starts fouling out too soon. But I agree with you, I’m mostly just paying lip service to a qualification of the numbers in a nominal defense of Thibs. I don’t actually believe it myself.

    I really think Thibs either doesn’t want to deal with the locker room fallout or he wants to protect Quickley a bit. There’s no criticism thrown at Quickley if he’s backing up a player obviously worse than him. Thibs also just seems old school and starts the vets.

    I believe Quickley is much better than Payton, but it’s fine to keep him as a backup for now. I don’t care about wins and losses this year, I care about IQ developing. Quickley plays enough to develop well. So, I’m happy enough.

  48. everything else is a futile exercise in self-eroticism.

    okay, i’m stealing this one for future…forget you’ve ever seen it :)

  49. Who would be the instigator of “locker room issues” on this team about Elfrid Payton other than Julius Randle? And if Randle’s the kind of guy who would piss and moan over Elfrid Fucking Payton, it’s time to move on from him, too. That would just positively scream, “Loser.”

  50. My consistent opinion about Mitch has always been that he’s a nice player, but overrated because of the True Shooting Percentage Illusion and we’re seeing it live and in crystal color as he plays more minutes. I’m not sure anyone used the words “sure-fire All Star” but there were certainly posts saying that if the metrics said he was the (guessing) 16th best player in the NBA then damn it he’s the 16th best player in the NBA stop arguing with the metrics.

    He’s not that, he never was, and he’s not going to be. That said, he’s a nice piece. I’m at the point where I liked the unleashed version better even if that version can’t make it to 30 minutes because of fouls. I’m kind of meh on the neutered version.

  51. I don’t subscribe to ESPN

    howdy al…the last thing in the world i need is another subscription in my life; but, the ESPN one comes with a decent bundle including Disney + and Hulu…

    i needed to get Disney + for the kids (yeah, nothing at all to do with me absolutely jonesing to watch season 7 of the Clone Wars)…

    been thinking a bunch the last few days since you mentioned chilling with your son and watching a game together…the tone of “completion” within your words stuck with me and made me smile…

    it’s looking more and more like i struck out with all three kids when it comes to watching sports…none of them show any interest in watching any kind of ball game at all with me, they’ll stick around for mma for a little bit, but that’s pretty much it…

    it’s all good though, they’re usually down for chilling together to watch a movie…

  52. I just got pushed a LeBron career highlights video by the YouTube algorithm. Got me thinking: how many players from LeBron’s earlier Finals opponents’ rosters are still active?

    2007 Spurs: 0 of 11
    2011 Mavs: 0 of 11
    2012 Thunder: 4 of 12 (Durant, Ibaka, Harden, Westbrook)
    2013 Spurs: 4 of 14 (Joseph, Leonard, Mills, Green)
    2014 Spurs: 5 of 13 (Leonard, Mills, Green, Baynes, Joseph)
    2015 Warriors: 6 of 13 (Barnes, Green, Thompson, Holiday, Curry, Iguodala)

    I can’t believe he’s still this good.

  53. E, all merc’d out: Who would be the instigator of “locker room issues” on this team about Elfrid Payton other than Julius Randle? And if Randle’s the kind of guy who would piss and moan over Elfrid Fucking Payton, it’s time to move on from him, too. That would just positively scream, “Loser.”

    Uh, Elfrid Payton might have an opinion on his own demotion.

  54. geo: i needed to get Disney + for the kids (yeah, nothing at all to do with me absolutely jonesing to watch season 7 of the Clone Wars)…

    I binged the hell out of Clone Wars after Mandalorian got me jonesing for more Star Wars. Damn Disney & their crossover episodes.

  55. hard to win when neither your point guard or center can score – at all…

    who knows, maybe thibs knows what he’s doing, but it’s becoming easier to question some of his decisions…it’s not enough anymore that the team “looks” competitive at times or is winning at a better percentage than in the past…

    some stuff needs fixing now…elf needs to take a seat for a bit and we all need to see if mitch can hit a 10′ jump shot, or throw a hook shot up in to the air, or something…

    disappointed so far in burks…

  56. Early Bird: Uh, Elfrid Payton might have an opinion on his own demotion.

    Even he looks like he’s checked out. I can’t imagine anyone beyond Randle taking his side in a dispute on the issue. If anything, the starters should be pissed with how piss poor he’s played. But, again, this is all speculation on my part.

  57. I binged the hell out of Clone Wars

    hey early bird :-)

    we are you in the series?

    the first 3 seasons where ahsoka is just a kid are not so great – from season 4 on though the series starts really taking off, you see anakin’s path more clearly in the Revenge of the Sith transition makes a whole lot more sense…by the end of the show the animation is insane…also fairly clear why the jedi came to an “end”…

    the yoda arc from the end of season 6 is fantastic…also really enjoyed what they did with darth maul’s character progression…

    there is some really good voice acting throughout the series…

  58. If anything, the starters should be pissed with how piss poor he’s played.

    “I just think we’ve got to mentally lock in and get off to better starts, first and third,’’ said Julius Randle

  59. As I’ve said, you can protect Quickley from having to play full-time against starters while also removing Payton from the rotation. Any of Burks, Rivers, or Frank would be an improvement, since Randle and RJ handle so much of the playmaking among the starting unit.

  60. well, today should be a practice day for them…we’ll see if thibs does anything different on wednesday…

  61. What’s interesting with Payton is that his TS% is in-line with what it was last year and his usage is actually higher than last year, but his assist rate has fallen through the floor – 21% this year compared to 39% last year and 34% overall for his career. I checked out of last year’s Knicks team pretty early to be honest – what was different about how he was playing last year? Who was exactly getting all of these assists? Or is he just shooting it now when he would have passed it last year?

  62. geo:
    well, today should be a practice day for them…we’ll see if thibs does anything different on wednesday…

    don’t hold your breath…

  63. If the Knicks do end up with two top 10 picks in the 2021 draft, then “The Moment of Truth” will have arrived for the team. Time to nail a lottery pick for once.

    Assuming the earlier pick goes to the best PG on the board, then next pick would be the best shooter on the board. A sentimental favorite for me would be Keon Johnson b/c he goes to one of my alma maters, but he needs to start shooting better to be top 10 worthy, I’d guess.

  64. “The Honorable Cock Jowles
    February 2, 2021 at 1:22 pm

    I just got pushed a LeBron career highlights video by the YouTube algorithm.”

    Yahoo just pushed this on me: https://newarena.com/nba/every-nba-teams-worst-draft-mistake/13/?amxt=new_pag_dt_2021_inview

    They chose the Weiss over Artest moment as the Knicks’ worst draft mistake. Do we agree? (Personally, given Artest’s well-documented mental illness, I’m not so sure that Weiss wasn’t the better pick, even in hindsight. The Malice at the Palace could have just as easily been the I Beg Your Pardon at the Garden. And, lest we forget: Jerrod Mustaf over Toni Kukoc??)

  65. geo: hey early bird :-)

    we are you in the series?

    the first 3 seasons where ahsoka is just a kid are not so great – from season 4 on though the series starts really taking off, you see anakin’s path more clearly in the Revenge of the Sith transition makes a whole lot more sense…by the end of the show the animation is insane…also fairly clear why the jedi came to an “end”…

    the yoda arc from the end of season 6 is fantastic…also really enjoyed what they did with darth maul’s character progression…

    there is some really good voice acting throughout the series…

    By binged the hell out of, I mean I watched the whole thing lol. It was the majority of my winter break activity.

    Thought first 3 seasons were okay for episodic show with decent one-off stories, very hit or miss though. I did end up skipping several of these episodes (the academy arc at the beginning of season 3 I hated). Definitely a lot better when Ahsoka is older and starts making her own decisions and getting into some darker, more intelligent story lines. I like how it really starts casting doubt on the righteousness of the Jedi Order. I think the Yoda story you’re referencing does a good job of it.

    Maul is absolutely my favorite character and his story makes the series for me. It continues in the Rebels cartoon show, the only part I really liked about that show. Stories w/ Clone Wars characters are worth it, the stories w/o the Clone Wars characters are very skippable to me.

    Also really liked the story with the Clone Trooper figuring out the Emperor’s plot.

  66. what was different about how he was playing last year? Who was exactly getting all of these assists? Or is he just shooting it now when he would have passed it last year?

    Last year, he was the point guard. This year, Randle is basically the point guard, so when Payton has the ball in his hands, it’s either to drive or to take an open jump shot.

  67. Alan:
    As I’ve said, you can protect Quickley from having to play full-time against starters while also removing Payton from the rotation. Any of Burks, Rivers, or Frank would be an improvement, since Randle and RJ handle so much of the playmaking among the starting unit.

    I am interested in this train of logic about protecting IQ from playing full time starters. If he’s as good as his metrics say all you’re doing is protecting full time starters from playing against him.

  68. Alan: Last year, he was the point guard. This year, Randle is basically the point guard, so when Payton has the ball in his hands, it’s either to drive or to take an open jump shot.

    I wonder in that sense if it’s more beneficial for Payton to play off the bench so that his minutes are staggered with Randle and he can be more effective as a PG

  69. Igno-Bot 3000: What’s interesting with Payton is that his TS% is in-line with what it was last year and his usage is actually higher than last year, but his assist rate has fallen through the floor – 21% this year compared to 39% last year and 34% overall for his career. I checked out of last year’s Knicks team pretty early to be honest – what was different about how he was playing last year? Who was exactly getting all of these assists? Or is he just shooting it now when he would have passed it last year?

    Thibs scheme is different and doesn’t use much PnR, last year we used PnR exclusively (not counting Randle 1-on-5 spins into the lane) It’s why both Payton & Mitch’s offensive numbers are down. It would improve the numbers of the 2 biggest deadends on offense if we ran Elf & Mitch PnRs.

    Also, Payton is pretty good at running the PnR. He can kick to shooters or pass to rolling bigs. This year the offense runs through Randle, so Elf doesn’t have many opportunities for assists. Thibs likes using Payton the same way he used Derrick Rose, focusing on attacking the basket. Payton is not a good fit in that role.

    The other problem we saw last year is the PnR is difficult to execute when you don’t have the shooters to prevent 5 defenders from collapsing on Mitch & Payton. I’d guess Thibs probably wouldn’t go to it anyways.

    This year the offense is much more about getting RJ or Randle the ball in motion. The last few games I watched, the primary action seems to be handoffs at the top of the key with Randle or RJ running up to the ball and continuing in motion. They run a few PnRs but it’s definitely not the primary action and seems more to free RJ for the drive. You see it some for IQ because Randle is less likely to be on the court.

  70. Igno-Bot 3000: I wonder in that sense if it’s more beneficial for Payton to play off the bench so that his minutes are staggered with Randle and he can be more effective as a PG

    I always thought Payton would fit better on the bench squad with better shooters than he does with Randle and RJ.

  71. Thibs scheme is different and doesn’t use much PnR, last year we used PnR exclusively (not counting Randle 1-on-5 spins into the lane) It’s why both Payton & Mitch’s offensive numbers are down. It would improve the numbers of the 2 biggest deadends on offense if we ran Elf & Mitch PnRs.

    It would also improve IQ’s numbers since I think the metrics show he’s our post productive PnR player.

  72. Ntilakilla: It would also improve IQ’s numbers since I think the metrics show he’s our post productive PnR player.

    Wouldn’t PNR also be helpful for Obi?

  73. I definitely think Payton should be benched, and probably Bullock as well, but I don’t think our offensive problems fall solely on the shoulders of our personnel. Our offensive schemes are pretty bad and we are constantly relying on iso play and hoping Randle or RJ or Quickley can create something out of nothing.

    It would be nice to run a cohesive offense where we are running actual plays trying to get Mitch or Obi actual shots rather than just offensive rebounds or lobs that result from our other players going one on two and passing the ball.

    Our team’s average shot difficulty is through the roof. We create so few easy opportunities. I don’t think Thibs knows how to run an offense if he doesn’t have an alpha ball handler to lean on. He’s trying to lean on Randle but he’s not that guy.

    Also , our spacing is terrible, even when we put out four shooters our spacing is terrible. It’s not our lack of shooting ability it’s our lack of emphasis on the 3 point shot. We need to spread the floor and have everyone, even bad shooters let it rip from three to keep defenses honest but even our shooters are often turning down three point shots and I thinks that’s on Thibs.

  74. Alan:
    As I’ve said, you can protect Quickley from having to play full-time against starters while also removing Payton from the rotation. Any of Burks, Rivers, or Frank would be an improvement, since Randle and RJ handle so much of the playmaking among the starting unit.

    I agree with you here. I think the Burks PG experiment started looking a lot better right before he got hurt. I said something similar a few threads back.

    If you’re not running the PnR, Payton is pretty useless. If Burks doesn’t work, at the very least you’re not missing much.

    My defense of keeping Payton in the starting lineup is more what I’d guess Thibs is thinking, not what I think. For instance, locker room concerns are an issue a coach thinks about that fans don’t think about. End of the day, the Thibs is just stubborn, old school, and likes to start the vets are the real reasons. The basketball reasons are frail.

  75. nice early bird :)

    yeah, the Mandalorian is just okay for me so far…

    i’m really looking forward to the Bad Batch which’ll come out sometime this year…

    Maul is absolutely my favorite character and his story makes the series for me. It continues in the Rebels cartoon show, the only part I really liked about that show. Stories w/ Clone Wars characters are worth it, the stories w/o the Clone Wars characters are very skippable to me.

    the Rebels show took some time to grow on me…i never really found Ezra Bridger all that engaging…mostly i just watched for the “continuity” story lines…and when Vader would show up…

    Also really liked the story with the Clone Trooper figuring out the Emperor’s plot.

    by any chance – do you remember what episode that was?

  76. i have a couple of theories on the implosion — roughly cut in half — of payton’s assist rate. it’s tempting to just say julius and rj are the focus of the offensive now, but although this is definitely a key part, i think it’s probably less than half of the story. payton is getting about 80% of the front court touches and time of possession he did last year and is running more than 90% of the PNRs. but i think he’s also been hurt by the zones and semi-zones teams are playing on the knicks. last year payton/randle/robinson/barrett lineups did fine, but it wasn’t the core starting group. this year teams have come out playing outright zone or a pseudo zone via extreme drop coverage on the PNR (note this is much harder to do when they curls RJ into that low PNR — thibs starts the payton PNRs much higher up and the play is obvious from a mile away) and this makes the lob much more difficult.

    randle obviously is really not a pnr handler or a good lob passer, but that was also true last year (his asst per 36 to mitch for the last year plus is only .65, half of RJ and *Frank* — elfrid last years was 3.2, this year: 1.2!!). but last year mitch played only 47% of his minutes with randle and this year it’s 88%. so i think the common sense take that our starting offensive group makes little sense and gives the defense too many good adjustment options is a fair simplification of the story here.

    i also agree there is a kind of side story about the utter lack of expansion of mitch’s offensive game. i am not talking about 25 footers here, but more like the occasional early pocket pass against pnr drop coverage. is he really that terrible at these in practice? he doesn’t really look terrible at them the almost-never times he tries them. like look at the first play in this link against the bucks. they almost never try this, but he looks pretty frisky doing it?

    tinyurl.com/5ybjf3wk

  77. Ben R:
    I definitely think Payton should be benched, and probably Bullock as well, but I don’t think our offensive problems fall solely on the shoulders of our personnel. Our offensive schemes are pretty bad and we are constantly relying on iso play and hoping Randle or RJ or Quickley can create something out of nothing.

    It would be nice to run a cohesive offense where we are running actual plays trying to get Mitch or Obi actual shots rather than just offensive rebounds or lobs that result from our other players going one on two and passing the ball.

    Our team’s average shot difficulty is through the roof. We create so few easy opportunities. I don’t think Thibs knows how to run an offense if he doesn’t have an alpha ball handler to lean on. He’s trying to lean on Randle but he’s not that guy.

    Also , our spacing is terrible, even when we put out four shooters our spacing is terrible. It’s not our lack of shooting ability it’s our lack of emphasis on the 3 point shot. We need to spread the floor and have everyone, even bad shooters let it rip from three to keep defenses honest but even our shooters are often turning down three point shots and I thinks that’s on Thibs.

    yep…this is the issue…no apparent offensive scheme/creativity (not surprising) and relying on sub-optimal distribution through Julius “i am not magic” randle…I looked at each NBA team and maybe there are three that have a worse main distributor/ball handler than randle…however, it is good for the “tank”…

  78. Miller had a 109 ORTG per BRef’s game logs.

    Thibs has a 107.8 ORTG per game logs (it’s different than the listed ORTG at the top of the page, so for consistency I’m using the same for each coach).

    Maybe there’s another reason for Thibs offense (less fast breaks gets thrown around at times), but we’ve replaced Ntilikina’s anemic offense with Quickley’s and our offense is still 1.2pts worse.

    So, presumably Payton running the PnR would be more efficient than Randle & RJ handoffs. Of course, Morris shot the lights out for the entire time too.

    On the other side, Thibs has us playing 3.5pts better on defense. Opponent 3pt shooting went from 28th to 1st, which I’m sure we all already knew.

    Here’s one article I found that says there might actually be some control in opponent 3pt shooting, despite prevailing opinion it’s uncontrollable.

  79. the quickley.. burks.. randle.. rj .. would have 28.. 22… 28 and 24 usg respectively.. so you have a usg crunch which would change a lot of what we’re doing now.. and i assume quickley and burks would take a hit on that front…

    that’s probably why they are on the second unit plus some other reasons….. they get free reign and can buoy a second unit that would rely on austin rivers for offense… or you’re left with finding different pairs to split up the usg with which probably seems complicated for thibs at this juncture of the season…

    in any case.. if you like seeing quickley shoot… being on the second unit isn’t terrible…

  80. BTW, what was up with all those uncontested dunks by the Bulls last night? I mean, you used to see that pretty regularly with the pre-Thibs Knicks but it was truly alarming given how we’re supposed to be a pretty good defensive team.

    (And it wasn’t even lobs most of the time, just passing to a guy wide open under the basket, no one within 5 feet.)

  81. geo:
    nice early bird :)

    yeah, the Mandalorian is just okay for me so far…

    i’m really looking forward to the Bad Batch which’ll come out sometime this year…

    the Rebels show took some time to grow on me…i never really found Ezra Bridger all that engaging…mostly i just watched for the “continuity” story lines…and when Vader would show up…

    by any chance – do you remember what episode that was?

    Don’t know off the top of my head, but wikipedia says it starts with season 6, episode 1.

    Sounds like we’re on the same page about Rebels, I’m probably overstating my dislike since I did watch the whole thing but I agree Ezra was kind of forgettable as a protagonist. The rest of the ensemble was more interesting to me. Definitely Vader was an awesome appearance.

    Yeah, Mandalorian is another hit or miss show to me depending on the episode’s story, I find them pretty fun even when they miss though. But it does enough to get me really jazzed on the Star Wars lore and universe again to make me want to watch other stuff. Some really cool moments, other moments that should be cool but felt a little too flat.

    Like a lot of people, I grew up watching the original trilogy constantly and I watched the re-releases in theaters when I was 9 or so.

    The prequels came out and I was too much of an apathetic teenager to enjoy them (also, I’m pretty sure the 1st two are just bad). I enjoyed the sequel trilogy as pure big screen entertainment, but they didn’t really spark anything like the Mandalorian.

    It’s been fun getting back into Star Wars a bit.

  82. My son and I are early in season 4 of Clone Wars. (We just did the trilogy about Captain Ackbar and the Mon Cala civil war.) We’re enjoying it so far. Filoni has a much clearer sense of how to write Anakin’s gradual descent than Lucas did in the prequels.

  83. ptmilo: payton is getting about 80% of the front court touches and time of possession he did last year and is running more than 90% of the PNRs.

    My intuition is that Payton gets 90% of the PnRs, but 90% of very few PnRs is still very few PnRs compared to last year when it was featured more prominently.

    That said, I think your point about spacing with Mitch & Randle is a valid theory. Taj is full of flaws, but he could pass a bit and at least make simple post moves to the basket. If Mitch catches and doesn’t immediately throw it down, the offense stalls out. Maybe we’re missing Portis as a floor spacer more than we think.

  84. Early Bird: Uh, Elfrid Payton might have an opinion on his own demotion.

    When the gods got together after the Trojan War and invented irrevocable waivers, it was this exact scenario they had in mind.

  85. Alan:
    My son and I are early in season 4 of Clone Wars. (We just did the trilogy about Captain Ackbar and the Mon Cala civil war.) We’re enjoying it so far. Filoni has a much clearer sense of how to write Anakin’s gradual descent than Lucas did in the prequels.

    Yeah, you’re right on the cusp of it getting really good. Hopefully we didn’t give anything away yet.

    Anakin’s portrayal/foreshadowing definitely was one of my favorite parts in the early seasons. They continue creating a good dynamic between Ahsoka & Anakin as it goes on and Anakin’s influence is pretty important to Ahsoka’s character in the later seasons. I think that’s ambiguous enough.

    Also, there’s several stories about the banking clan which I really enjoyed, partly because I can’t imagine many kids shows doing it. I assume it came out right around the financial collapse.

  86. Pepper, you’ve got me curious — which three teams/players did you decide have/are worse distributors than ours?

  87. Raven:
    Pepper, you’ve got me curious — which three teams/players did you decide have/are worse distributors than ours?

    westbrook, twolves and pistons ( i was too lazy to look up who runs that offense just assumed it)

  88. the quickley.. burks.. randle.. rj .. would have 28.. 22… 28 and 24 usg respectively.. so you have a usg crunch which would change a lot of what we’re doing now.. and i assume quickley and burks would take a hit on that front…

    You’re probably right that getting rid of Payton would mean altering our distribution of the ball, particularly eliminating a lot of the two man game between he and Randle. I’m perfectly fine with Julius Randle getting less of the ball and so should Thibs.

  89. It’s been fun getting back into Star Wars a bit.

    i keep forgetting to do it, but, i need to order the Son of Dathomir (4 issue consolidated graphic novel)…

    holy cow, just checked online – looks near impossible to find at the moment…just found a copy on ebay, hopefully will get it next week…

    My son and I are early in season 4 of Clone Wars. (We just did the trilogy about Captain Ackbar and the Mon Cala civil war.) We’re enjoying it so far. Filoni has a much clearer sense of how to write Anakin’s gradual descent than Lucas did in the prequels.

    lucky, haven’t been able to hook any of the kids on clone wars or rebels…we do have a blast playing them on Disney Infinity from time to time – biggest gaming tragedy ever was them shutting that game down :(

    matt lanter does a phenomenal job as anakin throughout clone wars…none of that whiney teen angst stuff from the movies…a lot more fury and life during wartime – and, the compromises war causes within people…

    which was pretty much palpatine’s whole plan…

  90. Lucas should have made the conflict between Anakin and Obi-Wan center around a love triangle with Padme. That might have given those steaming turds of movies some sort of emotional weight and might have made us give a fuck about Padme, who is in my opinion the worst Star Wars character of all time.

  91. Wolves seem to have D Russell, Ricky Rubio (!), and Edwards at point.
    Pistons have rookie Hayes and aged husk Rose.

    I could see those groups struggling.

    I was hoping this would make me feel a little better about the Knicks, but not sure they’re really worse…

  92. Do folks really enjoy watching Bullock, Burke, EF and Rivers play? Can’t we play our picks for 20 consecutive games? Please God — please. Thibs is not the coach for this Knick team at this time — Miller was. And why did this FO invest in more 10-year vets who have had limited success in the NBA. Why did they not draft Halliburton. Who cares if the Knicks are sub-500? Why did we draft and trade for these Knicks (Smith) if they are never going to see action G-League my God). Randolph is the only Knick worth anything at this point. Let’s trade him for LaVine and put the picks around him.

  93. JK47:
    Lucas should have made the conflict between Anakin and Obi-Wan center around a love triangle with Padme. That might have given those steaming turds of movies some sort of emotional weight and might have made us give a fuck about Padme, who is in my opinion the worst Star Wars character of all time.

    Good suggestion. It would’ve spiced things up. But Amadala wasn’t worse than Jar-Jar “racist stereotype” Binks or Qui-Gon “The dumbest Jedi ever” Jinn.

  94. Early Bird: My intuition is that Payton gets 90% of the PnRs, but 90% of very few PnRs is still very few PnRs compared to last year when it was featured more prominently.

    That said, I think your point about spacing with Mitch & Randle is a valid theory. Taj is full of flaws, but he could pass a bit and at least make simple post moves to the basket. If Mitch catches and doesn’t immediately throw it down, the offense stalls out. Maybe we’re missing Portis as a floor spacer more than we think.

    Holy moly, Portis has a 63% TS this year, including 46% on 3s. Good for him I guess but wow

  95. Padme, who is in my opinion the worst Star Wars character of all time.

    she gets some good action/heroine stories in the clone wars animated series…i don’t really remember them focusing a whole bunch on their romantic relationship though…

  96. My intuition is that Payton gets 90% of the PnRs, but 90% of very few PnRs is still very few PnRs compared to last year when it was featured more prominently.

    no. he gets 90pct of the per possession pnrs he got last year.

  97. But Amadala wasn’t worse than Jar-Jar “racist stereotype” Binks or Qui-Gon “The dumbest Jedi ever” Jinn.

    well they can’t all be winners, can they?

  98. Re Mitch – It’s really hard to know where he sits on the “just scratching the surface of his potential” and “fully formed” spectrum. Just like it is with a lot of young players, like RJ for instance.

    I’d still lean more towards the former though close to halfway too. Mitch doesn’t have a great handle but he is a pretty coordinated kid with great body control. I refuse to believe he can’t do more than he has been in terms of finishing in PNR situations. We have seen him do it.

    And I’d agree that the starting 5 makes little sense. Not sure what’s to be done though.

    Thibs earned some patience I think with the team playing so well on defense. But that is going up in smoke and we aren’t too far away from some perennial questions about whether it’s time to give a lot more playing time to younger players. 10 games from now I predict.

  99. ptmilo:
    My intuition is that Payton gets 90% of the PnRs, but 90% of very few PnRs is still very few PnRs compared to last year when it was featured more prominently.

    no.he gets 90pct of the per possession pnrs he got last year.

    Wow, really? This is why the eye test sucks.

  100. Wow, really? This is why the eye test sucks

    yes well that’s what synergy claims but i had the same eye test as you; i strongly expected to see a much bigger decline.

  101. “…whether it’s time to give a lot more playing time to younger players.”

    RJ gets tons of minutes. Quickley has played himself into significant minutes. I’m kind of okay with yanking Obi if he won’t play D or box out. I’d love to see him get more minutes, but I’d like to see him learn to play D and box out, and just maybe this is part of that learning — a little rough, but I like players who play D and dislike those who don’t, so hoping he’s embarrassed enough to really work at it so he can get more time. I’m also kind of okay with not playing Knox, although I am curious if he can just become Novak 2.0. But not so much that I’m sad about not feeling queasy watching him play. That leaves Frank, who most here agree needs one last run out of the shop, so I’m hoping that will come soon.

  102. ptmilo:
    Wow, really? This is why the eye test sucks

    yes well that’s what synergy claims but i had the same eye test as you; i strongly expected to see a much bigger decline.

    Yeah I read you initial post as “Payton gets 90% of this year’s PnRs” which re-reading the post you do make say “of last year”, but I think my brain rejected that reading due to eye test. Makes me wonder if synergy maybe count some dinky PnRs that aren’t really meant to generate offense.

    Like you alluded to, and I’m just reiterating, I wonder if that’s (1) by design (the starting farther back), (2) the drop-off from Morris to Bullock, (3) spacing between Mitch & Randle, or (4) league making an adjustment.

  103. Alan: Mitch is a fantastic player to have on his current contract, and would be great to still have if his next contract was in, say, the $10-14 million range. Once it starts creeping above that, though, he’s a guy you can’t move as well as someone whose deal makes it harder to acquire other players to place around him.

    And this is where i think Leon Rose has been doing fine, if it was on me i would have signed Mitch to an extension already, but he opted instead to check if the projected growth will happen or not. At this time it’s looking more likely that he is on the Nerlens Noel level, which would be a little step back for us, but let’s give him time because Mitch has improved each season. Either way, Rose’s strategy will prove to be the best, because at the end of the season the Knicks will decline the option and i’m having a hard time seeing a team willing to give Mitch more than 4/36M, and maybe he gets way less. At that time Rose will look like his saviour for giving him more money than anyone else. I wouldn’t be surprised if he re-signs on the cheap again, maybe 3/21M.

  104. Ntilakilla: Good suggestion. It would’ve spiced things up. But Amadala wasn’t worse than Jar-Jar “racist stereotype” Binks or Qui-Gon “The dumbest Jedi ever” Jinn.

    In the Clone Wars cartoon, Jar-Jar continues to be awful and they have entire episodes early on that feature him basically by himself.

    Padme is completely fine.

    On the other hand, in Mace Windu’s few appearances I find him a lot less charismatic than the movies. So kudos to the one and only Samuel L. Jackson.

  105. thenoblefacehumper: I don’t want to sound like I’m just making excuses for Mitch as I already said I think a lot of this is on him, but some of it does boil down to our offensive scheme (or lack thereof). Seeing as how our offense is 25th in the league, you’d be hard-pressed to convince me there’s a lot to lose by running ~10 more plays a game for Mitch.

    My concern with our offensive schemes has reached anxious level. It affects Obi also, as i think him and Mitch would much prefer to have plays drawed for them, instead of playing in the flow of the game.
    At first i understood we’d be good at defense first, but i thought the offense would be improving as the first half season went on. Now i think it’s more like, in the 1st half season we’ll only focus on defense, and then in the 2nd half season we’ll see what we can do with the offense. Ooph.

  106. the pick and rolls we’re running just end with payton.. rj… rivers… or quickley… shooting in the paint…. or they end up in lobs to mitch or noel…. or they’re double drags which we’ve been running a lot lately….. they’re pick and rolls cept everyone else without the ball gets ignored most of the time…

  107. Already starting to think about guys we could draft in mid-late lottery

    Have you guys seen the ridiculous numbers Corey Kispert from Gonzaga is putting up?
    Yes he is 22 years old but 6’7″, looks reasonably athletic
    Currently shooting 57.7% overall, 67.3% 2p%, 48.8% 3P%, 90% from the line
    He has a 72.7 TS on 22.9% usage, 17 games and 213 FGA – not a super small sample

    This honestly could be (is?) the greatest shooting season in college basketball history? It’s not ridiculous to think he might shoot 60/50/90.

    The comp is Joe Harris, but Joe Harris never sniffed a shooting season like this.

  108. Re: Obi – I’ve seen a few times where he gets a lane to the basket and seems like he is afraid to go strong and ends up with an emergency pass. Not sure if he’s taking off one step earlier than he should? But he gets a runway and then just doesn’t finish it strong.

  109. Yeah, Obi is actually very explosive but then doesn’t use that explosion at the rim. A number of times he’s blown through everybody and I expect him to go up and two-hand slam the ball, and instead he winds up making a skip pass. I have little doubt he COULD do the explosive slam and I wish someone somewhere would tell him that. There’s way more there to get out of him.

    As to the offense, it’s primitive and lame in every particluar. It’s been that way all season going back into last and it’s hard to see how it’s going to change. Mike D’Antoni or Kenny Atkinson aren’t walking through that coach’s door. Thibodeau is still the kind of 90s guy who gets furious at losing a game through bad defense but gives approximately zero fucks at losing one through bad offense. There’s some kind of neo-Puritanical thing going on there like defense is work and offense is pleasure and therefore losing by bad defense is some sort of mark on character or something. Meanwhile, his offense sucks. But I guess at least that’s not a sign of weakness or bad character anyway.

  110. DRed:
    Our offense is essentially just as bad as it was last season,

    Well, at least Thibs said he’s been focusing on defense, so to stay the same when we’re not doing anything to improve it… makes sense! LOL

  111. DRed: Our offense is essentially just as bad as it was last season,

    Somewhere above I posted the numbers, but we’re worse than Miller’s offense.

    We’re crushing Fizz’s Elf-less offense though. Really says more about Fizz & our early PG situation last year than either Thibs or Miller.

    Found it:

    Miller had a 109 ORTG per BRef’s game logs.

    Thibs has a 107.8 ORTG per game logs (it’s different than the listed ORTG at the top of the page, so for consistency I’m using the same for each coach).

    Fizz Magic put up a whopping 103.1.

  112. About the draft, and not counting on luck (cause we’re the Knicks, we never have luck on our side since Ewing), if we miss on the premier PGs (Cade and Suggs), are the next guys (Jaden Springer and Sharife Cooper, i think) any good? Would it be a good strategy to pick one of those two, and then in free agency try to lure Lowry here? The new guard rotation would be: (starters) Lowry and RJ , (backups) Springer and Quickley. And then we can go for continuity on the last 2 guard spots, with Frank and Rivers.

  113. “cybersoze
    February 2, 2021 at 5:06 pm

    About the draft, and not counting on luck (cause we’re the Knicks, we never have luck on our side since Ewing)”

    Oh, hey, thank for reminding me. Ewing over Karl Malone is another hindsight draft failure probably worse than Weiss over Artest. (No arguments here, right?)

  114. Z: Oh, hey, thank for reminding me. Ewing over Karl Malone is another hindsight draft failure probably worse than Weiss over Artest. (No arguments here, right?)

    No way, Patrick Ewing is one of the reasons i am a Knicks fan.

  115. Z:
    “The Honorable Cock Jowles
    February 2, 2021 at 1:22 pm

    The Malice at the Palace could have just as easily been the I Beg Your Pardon at the Garden.

    Thank you, honorable sir, for this name. Quite brilliant.

  116. the occasional early pocket pass against pnr drop coverage. is he really that terrible at these in practice? he doesn’t really look terrible at them the almost-never times he tries them. like look at the first play in this link against the bucks. they almost never try this, but he looks pretty frisky doing it?

    MItch is apparently incapable of a 4 ft bunny based on never having taken one. And his handle is so bad that he can’t move with the ball at all unless he’s 24 ft away and alone. So if you don’t catch him in motion..

    His defense seems much improved this year but he really needs to develop some ability to be effective from 4-6 ft out. And learn how to set screens young man! Not just pnr but an offball to free up RJ for a cut for example. Today, as you watch tape of last night, observe how the Bulls used that tactic to make Lavine seem better than he actually is.

  117. cooper is a bit of a mystery… i’m waiting to see more games cause he could be a legit lotto guy or more like end of the first rd type… as it stands he’s ok but he’s also one of the only true pg types in the entire draft….

    springer isn’t a pg.. i don’t think cade is either…. jared butler is probably the next highest pg in the draft.. but he’s sort of like a pg the way IQ is… after that it’s ayo dosunmu who is underrated but probably shouldn’t be picked in the middle of the first rd… and that’s probably it in terms of draftable players…

  118. Makes me wonder if synergy maybe count some dinky PnRs that aren’t really meant to generate offense.

    My memory test is that last year’s threads involved a lot of “Run the fucking pnr you fucking morons!” So yeah, not doing it much this year. Didn’t actually do it much last year either.

  119. I really don’t get the anguish that Quickley isn’t starting. It’s not like he isn’t getting a chance to play or to score points. I think Thibs has concluded that our personnel mix means we can have a successful defense much more easily than a successful offense (unlike Minnesota, where it was the opposite). I find it hard to argue with that. If he wants to hold the fort defensively with the starters and then go to town offensively (relatively speaking) with the second unit, that may be a good choice. Also, NBA offensive results for a given player from game to game are intrinsically noisy. Switching starters too often risks giving players the impression that if they have one or two bad nights they will get yanked, and you don’t want that either. It’s fair to wait a while to see what happens before changing starters.

  120. On the other hand, in Mace Windu’s few appearances I find him a lot less charismatic than the movies. So kudos to the one and only Samuel L. Jackson.

    i don’t know, maybe mace windu was only slightly less a sanctimonious, condescending dick in the movies than he was in the animated series…

    no doubt windu and ki-adi mundi alone may have led me to the dark side…redacted (oops, plot giveaway) seem to be fairly good examples of jedi’s going dark..

    although (more redactionating) have some interesting character growth in the other direction too…

  121. I’m a little surprised at how uh, reactive folks are to losing last night. It’s not like the Bulls suck. They’ve got a record like ours with a similar point differential. We were on the road and on the second night of a back to back (6-29 from 3 is a pretty good indicator of tiredness and just taking what the defense is giving you). The Bulls have more or less the same ORtg, and a better DRtg. Why did people think we should have won that game going in?

  122. I really don’t get the anguish that Quickley isn’t starting.

    He’s getting plenty of minutes. I think it’s just another way of saying they want Payton glued to the bench. Because Frank will be better, somehow? Someone in this thread was bemoaning DSjr’s lack of minutes. A few others appeared to be taking shots at Randle playing so much. There’s some sort of community breakdown, like people are starting to realize that the Knicks are not that good and aren’t going to be a .500 team and are trying to come to terms with it.

  123. djphan: cooper is a bit of a mystery… i’m waiting to see more games cause he could be a legit lotto guy or more like end of the first rd type… as it stands he’s ok but he’s also one of the only true pg types in the entire draft….

    Yeah, it’s kind of early to know what to do about the draft. ;)
    You follow NCAA a lot, right? Ever seen Utah State play? They have a center (Queta) that is a fellow countryman of mine (he’s portuguese), and i have the secret hope that we take him on the 2nd round to be Mitch’s backup (he’d be perfect in that role, imo). If you see him play, please let me know what you think of him.

  124. I really don’t get the anguish that Quickley isn’t starting. It’s not like he isn’t getting a chance to play or to score points.

    Because the issue isn’t solely about IQ. Everyone defending the decision to keep him on the bench operates on the premise of how he will individually play in one lineup vs. the other. But the issue is whether or our starting squad as a whole is better with him in it than with Payton. And the thing is that Thibs keep running out the same starting lineups in the 1st and 3rd which fall behind offensively because their spacing is trash and the ball movement is nonexistent. It’s just a really bad combination of players and always has been from the preseason onwards. Back then the argument was that the sample size was too small. Well, now around a quarter of season has been played and we know a lot about how poor Payton fits with Randle, Mitch, and RJ when team defenses go zone. It’s just time to make the switch already. Charlotte is starting LaMelo for crying out loud. We should do the same with our rookie PG.

  125. I really don’t get the anguish that Quickley isn’t starting.

    It’s just because the starter is Payton, whose play this year has been bad from a productivity standpoint and aesthetically even worse.

    Having said that, I continue to not really blame Thibs (for this) because there aren’t any easy answers. There are some compelling reasons to keep Quickley in his current role, and Payton is almost certainly the best of the bunch between himself, Frank Ntilikina, and Dennis Smith Jr. I hardly need to point out how little that has to do with Payton.

  126. hey it’s groundhog day – i got a question for everyone:

    how many days did Phil Connors live over and over in Punxsutawney, PA…

    if you haven’t already done so in the past – no new researching allowed, gotta go with whatever your memory tells ya…

  127. geo:
    hey it’s groundhog day – i got a question for everyone:

    how many days did Phil Connors live over and over in Punxsutawney, PA…

    if you haven’t already done so in the past – no new researching allowed, gotta go with whatever your memory tells ya…

    I put the floor at around 20-25 years, easy.

  128. damn räz, i guess that wasn’t really that interesting or difficult a question…

    oh – goes back to work quietly dejected…

  129. If it takes 10K hours to get good at something, and he learned to play the piano in one hour lessons, 27 and a half? Plus a lot of fucking around/being depressed so I’d assume 35 to 40.

  130. Yeah, it’s kind of early to know what to do about the draft. ;)
    You follow NCAA a lot, right? Ever seen Utah State play? They have a center (Queta) that is a fellow countryman of mine (he’s portuguese), and i have the secret hope that we take him on the 2nd round to be Mitch’s backup (he’d be perfect in that role, imo). If you see him play, please let me know what you think of him.

    he seems legitimately good… like maybe should get first rd attention kind of good… and i’m definitely gonna check out his games….

  131. so I’d assume 35 to 40

    it’s been a while since i “dug” in to it (googled it online and read all the different theories)…

    i tended to believe it to be more in the 20 to 25 year range (eight thousand or so repetitive days) – but, i read some very good arguments for a longer timeline like you suggest…

  132. geo: i don’t know, maybe mace windu was only slightly less a sanctimonious, condescending dick in the movies than he was in the animated series…

    no doubt windu and ki-adi mundi alone may have led me to the dark side…redacted (oops, plot giveaway) seem to be fairly good examples of jedi’s going dark..

    although (more redactionating) have some interesting character growth in the other direction too…

    Maybe, I haven’t seen the prequels since they came out. I think I just like Samuel L Jackson being a sanctimonious, condescending dick more than the voice actor. Which isn’t a knock on the voice actor, just Jackson is unbelievably good at it.

  133. geo:
    damn räz, i guess that wasn’t really that interesting or difficult a question…

    oh – goes back to work quietly dejected…

    Was this guess right? All I remember was him becoming a professional piano player, chiropractor, doctor, connoisseur of French poetry, and aware of every single thing that happened in Puxatawney that day…

    All of that has to take decades to accomplish.

  134. Kevin Durant’s body look like he’s a 19 year old draft pick. Just a really tall, really skinny guy. If he was a recent draft pick, I’d say he needs to put on 20 more pounds of muscle to be a real NBA player. Shows what I know.

  135. Re Quetta, I noticed him the other day because he was at the top of the DBPM rankings a d it piqued my curiosity. Read a little about him. Nice story. It’s a long way from Portugal to Logan, Utah. Although I met someone recently who had gone from Siberia to Starkville Mississippi,

  136. Grocer: If it takes 10K hours to get good at something

    No knock against you citing it here, but FYI: It doesn’t. Gross miscommunication by Gladwell. There isn’t a 10k threshold. For a set of skills Anders Ericsson studied, (and Gladwell failed to summarize) the average time to achieve a reasonable definition of mastery was about 10k hrs. But, A) that was a function of the skills he studied; B) suggesting the mean is actually a threshold – a “magic number”, is completely incorrect; and C) the major lesson from the whole body of research is the importance of deliberate practice which boils down to repeatedly trying to do something in a way that’s known to work and then getting detailed expert feedback on how well you did afterward.

    Again, no knock on you, just a bit of pushing against the unhelpful myth that Gladwell created,

  137. I don’t think the 10K hours is unhelpful at all.

    10K hours amounts to one hour a day for 40 years. It’s useful bc it teaches people that to become truly great at something takes a lot of time and practice and most skills take a lifetime to master, which is true.

  138. Really weird that Ian Eagle is doing the TNT game. He’s doing his Nets homer announcer thing, feels like I’m watching YES network

  139. so what are your saying unreason – his time spent in reliving days was somewhere below 20 years or so…i always wondered how long it took for him to want to start taking more drastic methods towards trying to resolve the ordeal…

    heck, i’m twenty thousand plus days in and i’ve yet to ever really wanna leave nor start getting overly productive with my time…

    maybe things will change for me in the next ten thousand or so days (if i’m fortunate enough to get that many)…

  140. VanVleet might break the all time record for threes made in a game, he’s got 11 at the end of the 3rd, what the hell.

  141. if kawhi was even half decent in this game it would be a double digit lead…he looks disinterested…

  142. Bruno Almeida:
    VanVleet might break the all time record for threes made in a game, he’s got 11 at the end of the 3rd, what the hell.

    Earning that new contract all in one night…

  143. Again, no knock on you, just a bit of pushing against the unhelpful myth that Gladwell created

    I didn’t even know it was Gladwell. That guy’s the worst. I was thinking about it after and I think it’s wrong anyway. He doesn’t become a skilled piano player in general, he just gets really good at a single set of songs that people want to hear. Or is this a memory test fail?

  144. 10K hours amounts to one hour a day for 40 years

    27.4 years. He just spent a lot of days killing himself so I added some time.

  145. Grocer: I didn’t even know it was Gladwell.That guy’s the worst.I was thinking about it after and I think it’s wrong anyway.He doesn’t become a skilled piano player in general, he just gets really good at a single set of songs that people want to hear.Or is this a memory test fail?

    I think Phil just becomes very accomplished playing the piano. The entire movie journey for him involves not taking shortcuts and just enjoying the moment, learning to live authentically and appreciate his eternally recurring moment. Phil learning a few songs to impress the crowd would’ve been cheating just like when he tried to learn whatever he could about Andy McDowell’s character to get her to bed.

  146. got me, ahole

    it’s not a trick u just need your bifocals. hint: pictorial depiction of what masai has done to us.

  147. That graph is, unconvincing, but the thread he links to is really interesting. Thankfully the Knicks hired ISM so we don’t have to be so concerned (our defense is going to look worse and worse going forward).

  148. pretty sure by day 10 i’d have found every drug in the town…by months end, i’d have had the nancy “technique” extrapolated to nearly the whole town, except of course for flat tire lady and her crew…

  149. djphan: he seems legitimately good… like maybe should get first rd attention kind of good… and i’m definitely gonna check out his games….

    Oh, that’s so nice to hear. I think he’s legit, but i could be biased about him. He’s rising on the mock drafts, started on the 50-60 range and is now on the 30-40 range. Would be amazing if he can get to the first round (and a guaranteed contract), but if he’s there for the Knicks pick in the 2nd round and we take him, i would be ecstatic! ;)

    Owen:
    Re Queta, I noticed him the other day because he was at the top of the DBPM rankings

    Now we’re talking… defense! defense! defense! :) And yeah, he’s a great kid, i follow him on Twitter.

  150. ***hey it’s groundhog day – i got a question for everyone:
    how many days did Phil Connors live over and over in Punxsutawney, PA…
    if you haven’t already done so in the past – no new researching allowed, gotta go with whatever your memory tells ya…***

    I never quite understood that movie, but I think the premise was that he relived the same day for 6 weeks (i.e. the length of time that winter extends for if the groundhog sees his shadow). So roughly 45 days?

    (ps, Phil didn’t “master” the piano. He learned one boogie-woogie riff and faked his way through a muzak version of Rachmaninov’s 18th variation on a theme by Paganini — easily done in 45 days if all you’re trying to impress a girl, not the audition board at Julliard:)

  151. ptmilo:
    got me, ahole

    it’s not a trick u just need your bifocals.hint:pictorial depiction of what masai has done to us.

    lol, if I scrolled down a bit I would have seen this:

    Seth Rosenthal
    @seth_rosenthal Replying to @kpelton and @ZachLowe_NBA

    long live the Knaptors

  152. Donnie Walsh:
    ***hey it’s groundhog day – i got a question for everyone:
    how many days did Phil Connors live over and over in Punxsutawney, PA…
    if you haven’t already done so in the past – no new researching allowed, gotta go with whatever your memory tells ya…***

    I never quite understood that movie, but I think the premise was that he relived the same day for 6 weeks (i.e. the length of time that winter extends for if the groundhog sees his shadow). So roughly 45 days?

    (ps, Phil didn’t “master” the piano. He learned one boogie-woogie riff and faked his way through a muzak version of Rachmaninov’s 18th variation on a theme by Paganini — easily done in 45 days if all you’re trying to impress a girl, not the audition board at Julliard:)

    The people who made it have intimated in interviews that he spent decades in the loop, though your mileage may vary re: Death of the Author.

  153. swiftandabundant:
    I don’t think the 10K hours is unhelpful at all.

    10K hours amounts to one hour a day for 40 years. It’s useful bc it teaches people that to become truly great at something takes a lot of time and practice and most skills take a lifetime to master, which is true.

    It would be helpful if it were true. It’s unhelpful because it’s not true. I’d guess it serves more to discourage and waste time than to inspire and help. The research is clear. Sheer repetition without the elements of deliberate practice is unlikely to help you achieve high-level mastery of typical complex skills – ever, 10k hrs or no. But popular understanding of the 10k rule says that amount of sheer repetition is the key to becoming an expert. That’s just wrong and bad advice. It steers people toward the wrong thing – time spent practicing – and away from the real juice – how you spend that time.

    It’s a fascinating and inspiring literature. Many things people think are inborn markers of talent or genius are really just a product of intense deliberate practice, sometimes over relatively short periods – well short of 10k hrs. E.g it used to be thought that you were born with perfect pitch or not. But for most, it’s a teachable and fairly quickly acquired skill. More importantly, things like surgical skill are a function of how much time – how many surgeries – you do. But without the elements of deliberate practice, most people plateau pretty quickly. With those elements, however, they get better and better, plateauing at a much higher level. Misunderstanding of things like that literally means lives.

    Sorry for sounding like a schoolmarm, but I nitpick with this because I think the widespread misperception of what drives skill development really matters.

  154. Damn, the 2020 draft looks ridiculously deep…are there even 5 guys drafted in the first round that don’t look like potential rotation players? (giving Killian Hayes the benefit of the doubt for now…)

  155. ***The people who made it have intimated in interviews that he spent decades in the loop, though your mileage may vary re: Death of the Author.***

    Well, that makes no sense. What ends the cycle for him? Why have the Groundhog’s Day backdrop at all if not for the 6 week “purgatory” period?

  156. Phil didn’t “master” the piano. He learned one boogie-woogie riff and faked his way through a muzak version of Rachmaninov’s 18th variation on a theme by Paganini — easily done in 45 days if all you’re trying to impress a girl, not the audition board at Julliard

    I’m assuming that would take a fairly significant amount of time if his practice time was limited to an hour or so lesson per day with the piano teacher. (isn’t the performance kinda montage-y and suggestive that this is only part of his repetoire? It’s been a while since I’ve seen it)

  157. I never quite understood that movie

    that may actually be a good thing…

    So roughly 45 days?

    Phil is a pretty messed up dude to begin the movie, but – i’m guessing his hitting rock bottom and redemption was pushing at the very least a decade and a half…

    (ps, Phil didn’t “master” the piano. He learned one boogie-woogie riff and faked his way through a muzak version of Rachmaninov’s 18th variation on a theme by Paganini — easily done in 45 days if all you’re trying to impress a girl, not the audition board at Julliard:)

    that’s funny…his transitions though while playing seemed like he sort of knew what he was doing at the piano…

  158. if not for the 6 week “purgatory” period?

    isn’t purgatory like thousand year plus “sentence”…

    or, the last two decades as a knick fan…

  159. Zach Lowe had Tim MacMahon on today’s Lowe Post to talk about the many things currently ailing the Mavericks, and I had an evil smile on my face as I listened to the whole thing.

  160. I’m not sure i’m getting it…my attention span today has been less than spectacular…

    it was weird, had a bit of demanding weekend, and monday was starting off continuing to be challenging, by early afternoon i took a less stress pill and a nap…

    got woke up after an hour or so by someone knocking on the door, god child number 1 to celebrate her b-day for a little while (they grow way too fast)…just answering the door felt like i had to swim up to the surface from 100 meters below the water…took a good minute or so to get clear(er)…and, i’m pretty used to operating in a bit of a blur…

    what’s the reader’s digest version on this skill development thing unreason: it’s how you practice, not how much you practice?

  161. Donnie Walsh: Well, that makes no sense. What ends the cycle for him? Why have the Groundhog’s Day backdrop at all if not for the 6 week “purgatory” period?

    ahahahaha quality KB right here

  162. The original script I believe had 10,000 years as the time he was reliving Groundhog Day. I don’t think they ultimately used that as Harold Ramos guessed it was about a decade. Many other websites have calculated about 30-40 years based on various talents he learns.

  163. geo: what’s the reader’s digest version on this skill development thing unreason: it’s how you practice, not how much you practice?

    Yep. More specifically, repeatedly trying to do something in a way that’s known to work and then getting detailed expert feedback on how well you did afterward. Pretty simple straightforward difference from sheer time-on-task, but it leads to a big difference in the amount of skill gained from practice.

  164. Well, that makes no sense. What ends the cycle for him? Why have the Groundhog’s Day backdrop at all if not for the 6 week “purgatory” period?

    Isn’t it TRUE LOVE that ends the cycle, in a rom com kind of way? It’s a fun movie but my takeaway was a moral about how small town life is best and hokey mid-western versions of happiness are the ideal ones. It’s basically a really good version of a Hallmark Christmas movie.

  165. Seriously, a lot of those movies from that era of filmmaking don’t really hold up to scrutiny re: narrative or thematic consistency. If you dig too deep, you’ll find that Back to the Future revolves around a plot point in which Marty sets his mother up to be the victim of an attempted sexual assault; Home Alone is actually borderline torture porn with a child as the agent of suffering; Air Force One has a scene in which Gary Oldman, who is a fully-grown man, suggestively sniffs a child’s face after executing a guy in front of her, after which she exhibits zero symptoms of PTSD because she’s a take-no-prisoners bHaD BiTcH; and Robocop 3 somehow got greenlighted.

    I think I’d like to max Fred VanVleet now.

  166. That was so sweet. End of game Kyrie and Morris share a long, sweaty, mask-less embrace. A knucklehead hugging a chucklehead.

  167. Air Force One has a scene in which Gary Oldman, who is a fully-grown man, suggestively sniffs a child’s face after executing a guy in front of her, after which she exhibits zero symptoms of PTSD because she’s a take-no-prisoners bHaD BiTcH

    that’s The Professional directed by luc besson with a brilliant subtle performance by jean russo and another great performance by a young padme herself…

  168. Isn’t it TRUE LOVE that ends the cycle, in a rom com kind of way? It’s a fun movie but my takeaway was a moral about how small town life is best and hokey mid-western versions of happiness are the ideal ones. It’s basically a really good version of a Hallmark Christmas movie.

    oh no, groundhog day is whole lot darker than that…it’s down in a hole why am i even here dark – with a happyish ending…

  169. If Bargs replaced Phil, would he have learned how to play basketball by the 10,000th year?

    You now have me thinking of a Groundhog Day remake with Phil Jackson as the new Phil.

  170. I watched groundhog’s day tonight and asked my wife if it’s a romcom. I think so but she wasn’t so sure. It has a love story but it’s really him becoming a good person that breaks the cycle and getting the girl is the reward.

    We want Quickly to start bc he’s better than elf and he should be playing with RJ, Mitch and Randle to get experience with them. Is anyone really doubting at this point that he’s better than elf?

  171. Brian Cronin: You now have me thinking of a Groundhog Day remake with Phil Jackson as the new Phil.

    Phil was like Groundhog Day for all Knicks fans…except maybe strat

  172. This is such a delightfully bizarre thread. Yes, it was Oldman in Air Force One (although I don’t remember the sniffing part). Although I absolutely loved The Professional, with Natalie Portman in her first role. See it now if you haven’t. And GHD is definitely a rom com, made bearable by all kinds of deviant behavior (multiple suicides, tricking people into having sex, etc.).

  173. oh no, groundhog day is whole lot darker than that…it’s down in a hole why am i even here dark – with a happyish ending…

    I said it was a really good version.. It’s also a really interesting time travel device. Like Quantum Leap, but he only ever goes one place.

    It has a love story but it’s really him becoming a good person that breaks the cycle and getting the girl is the reward.

    Which is a fairly standard rom com trope.

  174. Well, that makes no sense. What ends the cycle for him? Why have the Groundhog’s Day backdrop at all if not for the 6 week “purgatory” period?

    I think “Groundhog Day” was just a metaphorical setting to explore larger existentialist question of eternal recurrence – that is how would any of us respond to knowing we to repeat our lives, mistakes and triumphs, again and again ad infinitum. Frederick Nietzsche, the philosopher most associated with exploring this concept in modern philosophy, explained it as such like this:

    What, if some day or night a demon were to steal after you into your loneliest loneliness and say to you: ‘This life as you now live it and have lived it, you will have to live once more and innumerable times more; and there will be nothing new in it, but every pain and every joy and every thought and sigh and everything unutterably small or great in your life will have to return to you, all in the same succession and sequence’ … Would you not throw yourself down and gnash your teeth and curse the demon who spoke thus? Or have you once experienced a tremendous moment when you would have answered him: ‘You are a god and never have I heard anything more divine.’

    To me, Nietzsche’s hypothetical basically summarizes the movie’s essential dilemma. The idea that winter continues if a groundhog sees its shadow is analogous for what Phil experiences throughout the movie as a flawed man who indefinitely repeats the same mistakes again and again on an eternally recurring day because he’s ruled by the darker impulses of his unconscious, what Carl Jung termed the “shadow” mirror of the human psyche. At first he curses the divine forces forcing him to return to this endless day in a podunk town he loathes, but then he begins to appreciate the endless sequences he’s been relegated to perform, finding meaning and purpose in their smallest moments and tasks.

  175. Ntilakilla: I think “Groundhog Day” was just a metaphorical setting to explore larger existentialist question of eternal recurrence

    I’m not even sure it’s necessarily based on eternal recurrence, rather than say the repetitive nature of our lives, especially for a generation mired in the humdrum of 9-5s for 50 yrs. That said, it’s certainly an existential film with elements of RomCom & Bill Murray humor to make it more palatable.

    And put me down for hundreds or thousands of years. If you want an exact number, 872 yrs & 47 days.

    Anyways, I’m going to go to sleep. When I wake up tomorrow I’ll log onto Knickerblogger and argue about Frank Ntilikina.

  176. Knicks fans’ version of Groundhog Day would be waking up every morning at 6 am to James Dolan singing “I Should Have Known”

  177. okay, the fog is slowly starting to lift from my mind (i’m back home and working hard to get fuzzy again) – but, boom, this is it:

    To me, Nietzsche’s hypothetical basically summarizes the movie’s essential dilemma. The idea that winter continues if a groundhog sees its shadow is analogous for what Phil experiences throughout the movie as a flawed man who indefinitely repeats the same mistakes again and again on an eternally recurring day because he’s ruled by the darker impulses of his unconscious, what Carl Jung termed the “shadow” mirror of the human psyche. At first he curses the divine forces forcing him to return to this endless day in a podunk town he loathes, but then he begins to appreciate the endless sequences he’s been relegated to perform, finding meaning and purpose in their smallest moments and tasks.

    and there it is, missed your writing while you were away ras,,,,

  178. And put me down for hundreds or thousands of years. If you want an exact number, 872 yrs & 47 days.

    thinking on it, part of me believes it may be a lot longer than just a few decades…

    Anyways, I’m going to go to sleep. When I wake up tomorrow I’ll log onto Knickerblogger and argue about Frank Ntilikina.

    i wanna re-live the day where we beat boston by 30…

  179. it was Oldman in Air Force One (although I don’t remember the sniffing part). Although I absolutely loved The Professional, with Natalie Portman in her first role.

    you’re right raven, i always get Air Force One and Executive Decision confused…

    gary oldman has played a lot of terrific bad guys over the years…my fave though is probably drexl from True Romance, took me a while to even realize it was him…

    his character Stan, from The Professional stands out for the physical (and drug taking) quirks included in the role…i think i remember him sniffing on the little girl when she was in the bathroom getting ready to deliver the pizza…

  180. Knicks fans’ version of Groundhog Day would be waking up every morning at 6 am to James Dolan singing “I Should Have Known”

    yeah, i’m pretty sure that’s just one of the lower levels in hell…

  181. yeah, i’m pretty sure that’s just one of the lower levels in hell…

    I kinda figure GD is a variant Elvis Costello’s vision of hell. Not the early dark bits, but the end day.

  182. Phil had to learn the following:

    * The names, personalities, and problems of everyone in town;
    * The exact timing required to save the kid from falling out of the tree, prevent the mayor from choking to death, instantly replace the old lady’s tire, etc;
    * Become proficient enough at piano (which he couldn’t play at all at the start) to jam with the band, and to mix classical and jazz variations when Rita comes in;
    * Become a master ice sculptor

    And that’s just the stuff we see on the final day, and in the preceding montage of Phil becoming a better person. There’s surely lots of other stuff he learned that we just don’t see. (I often think about him gradually figuring out the exact amount of money, for instance, he would need to bribe the piano teacher, just so he’d have enough cash remaining to buy Wrestlemania tickets and do whatever else he needed that day.) So it makes sense to me that he’d be in the loop for several years at a minimum.

  183. In Knicks Knews, Macri’s newsletter today has a couple of tidbits. The first is that we’re on JJ Reddick’s list of approved teams to be traded to, though Macri doubts that’s who we’d use our remaining cap space on. Instead, he suggests Rose/Aller could get assets to facilitate a JJ trade. The second is this:

    Last thing: Seth Curry is a name I’ve heard the Knicks are keeping tabs on. With trade season about to heat up, there’s always a possibility that Philly needs to move Curry’s salary to facilitate a larger acquisition, and while New York (or any team) would have to pay a tidy cost to acquire one of the league’s best shooters on a fair contract for two more seasons, perhaps it won’t be as high due to the fact that there is so little free cap space available around the league.

    Man, imagine if we replaced Bullock’s rotation minutes — plus some of Payton’s — with Seth Curry. He’s older, so not ideal for our timeline, but shooting is shooting.

  184. Well, FVV had a night.

    I fell asleep halfway through the Nets game. Getting old. Was shocked they won. The Clippers looked much better.

  185. I’m guessing that Seth will age pretty well as a shooter. We could definitely use a good shooter!

  186. I think Seth Curry is a fairly important piece for the 76ers now (as he was for the Mavs as they are currently learning). I find it hard to believe they’d move him unless it was absolutely necessary to complete a “star” level deal.

  187. Quickley is still coming off the bench because the 2nd unit needs scoring. Thibs has practically spelled it out as clearly as possible that he’s looking for productive combinations for each unit. If he was trying to maximize the starters or we had more scoring on the bench, IQ might be starting already. But adding something to the starting unit and subtracting more than that from the bench unit would not be a good tradeoff. I think if we had one more good scorer on the bench, he’d move Quickley to the starting unit and use Burks and that other player in the 2nd unit. As long as Quickley is getting plenty of minutes and closing the games (which he is now), it’s doesn’t matter who starts. When we have a deeper team or maybe even if Toppin wakes up, things could change. Of course, if Quickley starts adding to his floater, foul drawing, and 3 pointer game, at some point it will be hard to keep him off court for as many minutes as possible, but that’s not a problem. :-)

  188. I think I’d like to max Fred VanVleet now.

    lol

    Me too.

    “Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go.”

    “Creative risk-taking is essential to success in any goal where the stakes are high. Thoughtless risks are destructive, of course, but perhaps even more wasteful is thoughtless caution which prompts inaction and promotes failure to seize opportunity.”

    “Yes, risk taking is inherently failure-prone. Otherwise, it would be called sure-thing-taking.”

  189. ” That said, it’s certainly an existential film with elements of RomCom & Bill Murray humor to make it more palatable.”

    The fact that the film was a Harold Ramis/Bill Murray collaboration definitely made the film more palatable to general audiences. For example, imagine if Charlie Kaufman rewrote and directed Groundhog Day with a guy like Paul Giamatti as the lead? The film uses the same type of absurdist premises we saw in Being John Malkovuch or Eternal Sunshine of a Spotless Mind but his interpretation would’ve definitely been way too offbeat and Kafkaesque to catch public attention the way it has since.

  190. Deeefense: Quickley is still coming off the bench because the 2nd unit needs scoring.

    Let’s face it, both units can use scoring.
    I was thinking about this. We know Payton can’t score. The Knicks signed Burks and Bullock to be 3pt snipers and they have been anything but. Knox flashed but he’s solidified himself as the worst shooter in the NBA. That’s why IQ has been glorified – because he can score.

    If the Knicks want to make the playoffs, which I think they do, they need to add someone (maybe two someones) that can put the ball in the hoop.

  191. Alan: Man, imagine if we replaced Bullock’s rotation minutes — plus some of Payton’s — with Seth Curry. He’s older, so not ideal for our timeline, but shooting is shooting.

    I would have been down with this from day-1. It’s OK if we have players that are old enough to drink legally.

  192. Is tonight our first must-win game of the year…? We just played Chi and we played so shitty… you have to think we’d re-tool a bit here and get our $hit together to the point that we should win… Don’t leave Markennan open… hit a few more 3’s… and win… A loss here would be a very bad look… Mavericks with another very losable game tonight as well…

  193. Deeefense: As long as Quickley is getting plenty of minutes and closing the games (which he is now), it’s doesn’t matter who starts.

    I generally agree with this principle but if you have a guy playing 30+ minutes a game it’s not ideal to play him for two 15+ minute stints (as opposed to 4 ~8 minute stints) in my opinion. It’s significantly harder to give a bench player two stints per half – you have to either check them in pretty much right away or the break will be very short. So if 30+ minutes becomes the standard for IQ at some point it really does make sense to start him just to optimize his rest pattern. Otherwise I’m generally in agreement with you that people make too much of who starts.

  194. Excellent Groundhog Day discussion. One of those movies you can watch and enjoy when you’re too young to think deeply about much of anything, and then come back to years later and have your mind blown. I loved it as a kid and continue to think it’s a great movie for entirely different reasons.

    Is tonight our first must-win game of the year…?

    The nice thing about this season, at least for me, is that just about all of the wins heavily involve guys we have a long-term interest in and our losses obviously have their own utility. At the end of the day, I still think it’s pretty important to get a good draft pick so I’m slightly partial to losses to be totally honest.

    I’m definitely not all-out rooting for losses and getting furious about wins a la the Phil Era when guys like Courtney Lee were leading the charge (the 2016-2017 season was the least enjoyable of my life and you all know how much that says), but I still think the ideal scenario is our young guns performing well in a loss. The difference between now and the Phil days is if we win, it means our young guys basically played so well a loss was precluded and I’ll never be mad about that.

    In other words, I don’t think tonight or any other night is a “must-win” game.

  195. Noble, I’m with you there. Honestly I’m just still somewhat stunned we could go toe–to-toe in a slugfest against the Clippers for a solid 44 minutes despite our glaring holes (i.e., can’t shoot a lick, comparable to having no left hand if I can beat the fight metaphor to death…).

    I’m looking forward to tonight’s game. Between everyone acknowledging that the first and third quarter starts were horrific (hello starters), and a day of Thibs presumably hammering them mercilessly, it’ll be interesting to see if any of that will make a difference.

  196. The nice thing about this season, at least for me, is that just about all of the wins heavily involve guys we have a long-term interest in and our losses obviously have their own utility.

    Yeah, it’s entirely possible we could win a random game over the next few months solely because Burks or Bullock went off, but I doubt it. Both because Bullock is terrible and Burks has just been okay since returning, and because the most important guys in the rotation are either long-term pieces or potential trade pieces. And even The Alec Burks game would make it easier to flip him at the deadline if we want.

    That said, a part of me didn’t hate the first Bulls loss because it increased our ping pong ball count.

  197. Pre-Covid I’d commute from Portland ME to Boston 2-3 days a week by bus often leaving very early in the morning – e.g 6 am. The bus shows movies, typically the same ones for months. There was a months-long stretch where Groundhog Day was playing. Over and over I’d be bleary, half awake, look up from my laptop to see some version of Bill Murray reliving some version of that day and vaguely recall the last version I’d seen on a previous day in my own life, then look down to resume work. The whole repetition-recollection-reflection thing suffused into my foggy consciousness in a vaguely unnerving way bringing up dim memories of The Baphomet by Pierre Klossoski: disembodied spirits of Templars with blurred exchangeable identities endlessly revisiting grudges and erotic fixations and the dread of unresolvable and inescapable moral quandaries. I was very relieved when the bus line finally moved on to the next film.

  198. Alan:
    Phil had to learn the following:

    * The names, personalities, and problems of everyone in town;
    * The exact timing required to save the kid from falling out of the tree, prevent the mayor from choking to death, instantly replace the old lady’s tire, etc;
    * Become proficient enough at piano (which he couldn’t play at all at the start) to jam with the band, and to mix classical and jazz variations when Rita comes in;
    * Become a master ice sculptor

    And that’s just the stuff we see on the final day, and in the preceding montage of Phil becoming a better person. There’s surely lots of other stuff he learned that we just don’t see. (I often think about him gradually figuring out the exact amount of money, for instance, he would need to bribe the piano teacher, just so he’d have enough cash remaining to buy Wrestlemania tickets and do whatever else he needed that day.) So it makes sense to me that he’d be in the loop for several years at a minimum.

    And lets not forget the suicide montage – all the different clever ways they depicted his self demise. Love the toaster. From my perspective I thought he spent many years in purgatory. Not sure if he spent 10,000 hours per demonstrated expert skill.

    Interesting that his body maintained muscle memory after each reboot. I suspect if I took up chainsaw ice sculpture, part of that skill is strength – weilding the chainsaw with finesse requires highly developed muscles to hold it at arms length with dexterity…am i nitpicking?

  199. So after a day or so of digging I finally found a shred of evidence that Payton is actually a good defender. ESPN’s DRPM has him at 0.41, good for 19th best PG in the league!!

    Of course Elf’s ORPM is an abysmal -4.17. For comparison, Frank never got below -3.

    Quickley by RPM is -0.96 on defense and positive overall, he’s listed at SG for some reason.

    DRPM has Bullock as a top-8 or so wing defender.

    RPM hates RJ’s offense, a lot.

    Mitch is 7th in DRPM, Noel is 8th. Noel manages to somehow be worse than Payton on ORPM. Mitch is also bad on offense

    So there you have it!!! if Thibs only looks at the black box that is ESPN’s RPM and only looks at defense, then there’s a reason to start Elf.

    But, if you look at literally any other metric and don’t have a weird brain disorder that only lets you see half your field of vision, and it always switches at half to see the Knicks play defense, then Elf sucks.

  200. Ntilakilla: The fact that the film was a Harold Ramis/Bill Murray collaboration definitely made the film more palatable to general audiences. For example, imagine if Charlie Kaufman rewrote and directed Groundhog Day with a guy like Paul Giamatti as the lead? The film uses the same type of absurdist premises we saw in Being John Malkovuch or Eternal Sunshine of a Spotless Mind but his interpretation would’ve definitely been way too offbeat and Kafkaesque to catch public attention the way it has since.

    I think a good comparison that actually happened is the Swedish existentially themed movie, Force Majeure (a very good movie), getting turned into a Will Ferrell vehicle for US audiences, Downhill. I haven’t seen the Ferrell version, but I don’t think I need to. On the other hand, I can’t imagine Americans watching Force Majeure en masse.

    But it shows how well Groundhog Day balances heavy philosophical concept with broad appeal. Bill Murray really nails funny & depressed.

  201. Pre-Covid I’d commute from Portland ME to Boston 2-3 days a week by bus often leaving very early in the morning – e.g 6 am. The bus shows movies, typically the same ones for months. There was a months-long stretch where Groundhog Day was playing. Over and over I’d be bleary, half awake, look up from my laptop to see some version of Bill Murray reliving some version of that day and vaguely recall the last version I’d seen on a previous day in my own life, then look down to resume work. The whole repetition-recollection-reflection thing suffused into my foggy consciousness in a vaguely unnerving way bringing up dim memories of The Baphomet by Pierre Klossoski: disembodied spirits of Templars with blurred exchangeable identities endlessly revisiting grudges and erotic fixations and the dread of unresolvable and inescapable moral quandaries. I was very relieved when the bus line finally moved on to the next film.

    from time to time I think about the knick fan who’s a film editor and would take the train in and out of the city…he had some great stories…a unique job with a neat perspective…

    I’ve commuted for a few jobs, only once though did it include public transport…going in and out of pittsburgh, it was only a few miles, but, traffic made it not even worth driving very often…

    it was a bus, always interesting sights and sounds traveling with others…

  202. But adding something to the starting unit and subtracting more than that from the bench unit would not be a good tradeoff.

    i think the weakness in this argument comes from the implicit assumption that the starter and bench units can’t overlap. it’s not really about iq starting, in and of itself. starting another shooter with randle rj and mitch instead of the worst shooting pg in the nba is probably pretty close to a free lunch. you can start iq and still stagger your playmaker rest spots. so, for example, start by subbing rj and iq for payton and burks, still leaving two shooters and two playmakers plus payton. then swap randle and bullock for rj or iq and whatever shitty bench player (obi, rivers, knox, personally would go frank) you want, again leaving two playmakers plus payton and two or three shooters. it’s pretty easy to ensure you always have two of burks/rj/randle/iq playmakers on the floor without many minutes of payton/randle/rj and a center out there, while retaining plenty of defensive matchup flexibility.

    i don’t think payton has suddenly become a guy who can’t at least get 10 assists per 100 if you put him with some spacing. i don’t think it’s the biggest deal in the world but it’s probably a better mix.

  203. didn’t rose just bring on an analytics’ coaches assistant (or whatever the exact title was)…

    thibs must be seeing the data…

  204. Macri

    Per Coach Thibodeau at morning shootaround, the Knicks will trot out a new-look starting lineup tonight against the Bulls. The lineup will include an all-new starting backcourt, and one can only assume Immanuel Quickley will claim one of those 2 spots.

  205. Owen:
    Macri
    Per Coach Thibodeau at morning shootaround, the Knicks will trot out a new-look starting lineup tonight against the Bulls. The lineup will include an all-new starting backcourt, and one can only assume Immanuel Quickley will claim one of those 2 spots.

    Yeah, IQ is a sure bet. On the other lineup change, i’d put my money on Burks over Bullock, but Noel over Mitch is also a (good) possibility.

  206. Oh, misread it, so as it is an “all-new starting backcourt” then it must be IQ+Burks over Payton+Bullock.

  207. Unreason: endlessly revisiting grudges and erotic fixations and the dread of unresolvable and inescapable moral quandaries

    strumming my pain with his fingers
    singing my life with his words
    killing me softly, unreason

  208. Could also be a Rivers/Burks starting backcourt, or something like that. I’m fine with anything that reduces or eliminates Elfrid Payton’s role on this team.

  209. Alan:
    Could also be a Rivers/Burks starting backcourt, or something like that. I’m fine with anything that reduces or eliminates Elfrid Payton’s role on this team.

    That would be quite the slap in the face to IQ!! Honestly, wouldn’t be surprised if Thibs really likes Rivers with Quickley for some strange reason and keeps Burks on the bench. I have no idea why, it just seems like the weird kind of thing that would happen to the Knicks.

  210. Elf is terrible but I don’t think this switch will make a huge difference. It will be a lot less lobs for Mitch too.

  211. That would be quite the slap in the face to IQ!!

    Again, this all comes down to the real reason for bringing IQ off the bench thus far. If the main reason is, as has been reported, that the Knicks want to develop Quickley as a point guard, and think that’s easier to do if he spends a lot of time in lineups where he’s the lead ballhandler, then that’s both easy to justify and easy to sell to him. (Especially if it’s Kenny Payne doing the selling.) If it’s just blind loyalty to veterans above all else — which I don’t believe it is — then swapping out Payton for Rivers and/or Burks would not play well to the fans or to Quickley.

  212. Owen:
    Macri

    Per Coach Thibodeau at morning shootaround, the Knicks will trot out a new-look starting lineup tonight against the Bulls. The lineup will include an all-new starting backcourt, and one can only assume Immanuel Quickley will claim one of those 2 spots.

    Ok, I’m pretty excited about that. I assume that means Bullock and Payton go to the bench, RJ shifts to 3, and Quickley starts. Not sure who else would be getting moved into the starting lineup though I think Burks makes the most sense. So my money is on IQ-Burks-RJ-Randle-Mitch starter tonight.

  213. Apparently that’s a fake Macri account. Why people do this shit I will never understand, but my guess is we’re getting the same starting lineup tonight.

  214. Alan: Again, this all comes down to the real reason for bringing IQ off the bench thus far. If the main reason is, as has been reported, that the Knicks want to develop Quickley as a point guard, and think that’s easier to do if he spends a lot of time in lineups where he’s the lead ballhandler, then that’s both easy to justify and easy to sell to him. (Especially if it’s Kenny Payne doing the selling.) If it’s just blind loyalty to veterans above all else — which I don’t believe it is — then swapping out Payton for Rivers and/or Burks would not play well to the fans or to Quickley.

    Yeah, that’s fair it just seems like if you’re going to make a switch IQ has earned it.

    Either way, too bad it was a fake and there isn’t an actual switch going on. Payton is godawful right now, and this is coming from a poster who thought he was decent last year

  215. thenoblefacehumper:
    Apparently that’s a fake Macri account. Why people do this shit I will never understand, but my guess is we’re getting the same starting lineup tonight.

    Well, the fake reality was much better than have to endure more games of the “Payton era”. :-/

  216. My bad. Who the hell spoofs Macri?

    That’s a terrible waste of time. As a Knicks fan I know….

  217. strumming my pain with his fingers
    singing my life with his words
    killing me softly, unreason

    ha, seems we all shine well when things get a little off track…

  218. Alan:
    Nevermind. The Macri tweet was from a fake account, not the real Macri.

    My disappointment is immeasurable and my day is ruined.

  219. change has got to be coming soon, when you have julius telling folks post game that they need to improve their first quarter and third quarter play – seems pretty clear to him and everyone that we’re digging ourselves holes with the starting unit…

    i believe julius makes an extra 900k if he’s an all-star…that ain’t happening with elf and bullock in the starting five…

    who knows though, every time elf looks like he’s headed for the bench he balls out and has a good game…

  220. Please please please let it be Quickley, Burks, RJ, Randle and Mitch.

    Just start your 5 best players!

    Or you could start Rivers over Burks if you want some more shooting/scoring in the second unit, which I could see the justification for that to some degree.

    But starting the best 5 is the way to go. Whatever defense you get from Bullock over Burks is marginal compared to the extra offense you get. Let that 5 man starting line up learn to play defense together. Maybe Elf can regain some mojo with the second unit.

  221. elf was averaging double digit shot attempts for a while, that ain’t happening no more…he seems to have completely lost his mojo at this point in time…mojo kind of comes and goes for elf, mostly it’s gone but, it does re-appear from time to time…

    at this point he doesn’t have the ball in his hand (cause they don’t want him dribbling or holding it to try to create) enough to get many if any assists, and, well he can’t shoot and doesn’t seem to be able to get to the rim right now…

    like i said though – elf is due for a big game tonight…or not…

  222. Bill Murray really nails funny & depressed.

    like Groundhog Day, i can watch Lost in Translation over and over again…of course having scarlett johansson running around in her drawers kind of bumps the movie up in my view…

    i really like the movies he did with wes anderson a lot…

  223. i think the weakness in this argument comes from the implicit assumption that the starter and bench units can’t overlap.

    There are a lot of ways to juggle 10 rotation guys.

    I think Thibs is still trying to figure it all out. We’ve had injuries and some of the younger players have been inconsistent. Quickley’s minutes are rising and he has been closing the games at times. That’s what’s important. Manu Ginóbili didn’t always start for strategic reasons (neither did Kevin McHale) but they got their minutes and closed the game.

    At this point I think Thibs knows the starting lineup would probably be a little better with Quickley (or maybe not), but there’s something he still likes better about Quickley with the 2nd unit. I think it’s the balance and lineup combinations because he talks about that all the time.

    He has even talked about playing Quickley and Payton together. We may see some that in the starting lineup eventually.

  224. He could totally schedule a tweet in advance, or give a member of his entourage his credentials.

  225. Don’t know about Reub but I am definitely a rube when it comes to this Twitter thing. Have been rooked a couple of time.

  226. Owen:
    Don’t know about Reub but I am definitely a rube when it comes to this Twitter thing. Have been rooked a couple of time.

    I get caught napping once in awhile also.

    This one fooled me briefly because someone I follow retweeted it, but then I saw comments about it being fake.

  227. geo: like Groundhog Day, i can watch Lost in Translation over and over again…of course having scarlett johansson running around in her drawers kind of bumps the movie up in my view…

    i really like the movies he did with wes anderson a lot…

    You should watch Broken Flowers if you haven’t seen it already. I don’t remember the details but tonally fits in with Lost in Translation. The one drawback is I don’t remember Scarlett Johansson in it and I would remember that.

  228. I like it when I simulate on tankathon and get the first and second picks.

    It’s the little things that get me through the winter.

  229. ptmilo: can’t be elfrid’s burner bc it doesn’t follow frank’s burner @classhandicapper ;-)

    lmao

    Frank’s burner account was @lovethoseknicks, but he quit that ID out of frustration one day with all the political posts from Knicks fans and the basketball media he was following. At least that’s what I’m told by very informed sources. ;-)

  230. Early Bird: I think a good comparison that actually happened is the Swedish existentially themed movie, Force Majeure (a very good movie), getting turned into a Will Ferrell vehicle for US audiences, Downhill. I haven’t seen the Ferrell version, but I don’t think I need to. On the other hand, I can’t imagine Americans watching Force Majeure en masse.

    I will check it out! Thanks for the recommend.

  231. You should watch Broken Flower

    thanks early bird, that looks really interesting…i’ll find it…

    just received my copy of Justine and Odd Thomas that i recently ordered…can’t wait to get to them, god daughter snagged the copy of Darkly Dreaming Dexter i was re-reading, so good timing…

    friend of mine whom passed away a couple of years ago was a big fan of the Odd Thomas series…i’ve enjoyed a bunch of other Koontz stories…they’re usually interesting pulp and occult stories…been missing my friend a bunch lately, it’ll be good to dig in to the book…

  232. Very good NBA news re: Covid – zero players that were tested on Jan. 27 returned positive tests.

    I was getting seriously worried a few weeks ago we might not have a season. Not out of the woods yet, but moving in the right direction at least.

  233. Very good NBA news re: Covid – zero players that were tested on Jan. 27 returned positive tests.

    I was getting seriously worried a few weeks ago we might not have a season. Not out of the woods yet, but moving in the right direction at least.

    This could be a sign we’re close to reaching NBA herd immunity. Alright, maybe I’m exaggerating a little, but I’d love to know the percentage. It’s probably higher than the general population in the US and that’s estimated as high as 25% plus/minus even before vaccinations.

  234. “I know we’ve got a lot of great players on this team,” Knox said before Wednesday’s second straight road game against the Bulls. “The rotations can get tight.Coach [Tom Thibodeau] makes a lot of decisions.”

    commenting on his demotion…poor guy….i wonder if he really believes that comemnt about great players….

  235. Very good NBA news re: Covid – zero players that were tested on Jan. 27 returned positive tests.

    In all seriousness, There’s good news out there on Covid lately. Cases and hospitalizations are plummeting in the US and even around most of the world now. Part of it is probably that WAY WAY WAY more people were infected last year than the official count because it took a very long time to ramp up testing in the late winter and early spring when it was growing exponentially in some areas (like NYC, Long Island, Westchester, etc.. ). So way fewer people are susceptible now.

    Also, there have been some mathematical models and theories out there that herd immunity would be reached sooner than conventional wisdom because of flaws in the generally accepted model. Those people were criticized, attacked, and even demonized by the mainstream because anything that lowered people’s willingness to wear masks and social distance was seen as a negative, but I didn’t see much criticism of the math they used. So maybe they were right. Maybe we don’t have to get to 80% (or whatever the official number is). Maybe it will come sooner and the slowdown we are seeing now in the middle of the winter is reflecting that. We can hope.

  236. Start spreading the news, I’m sitting today
    I’m no longer a part of it: New York, New York.
    These big clown shoes, will no longer stray
    Right through the very heart of it: New York, New York.

    If I can’t make it here, I can’t make it anywhere
    It’s up to Thibs, New York, New York.

  237. commenting on his demotion…poor guy….i wonder if he really believes that comment about great players….

    It has to be tough for an athlete to work as hard as he supposedly worked and see no payoff. He’s still young and will get stronger and better, but the path to being a solid NBA rotation player is not going to be easy for him. He’s getting better but his starting point was very low. It’s kind of amazing that we drafted him so high. It wasn’t like you could see anything in his college stats that could fool you (like might be the case with Toppin but I hope not). He didn’t look all that good coming out of college. He must have just had a great workout on the right day and with a push from Calipari Mills/Perry/Fizdale fell for it.

  238. Also, there have been some mathematical models and theories out there that herd immunity would be reached sooner than conventional wisdom because of flaws in the generally accepted model. Those people were criticized, attacked, and even demonized by the mainstream because anything that lowered people’s willingness to wear masks and social distance was seen as a negative, but I didn’t see much criticism of the math they used. So maybe they were right.

    I don’t remember any kind of ferocious condemnation of differing herd immunity estimates from mainstream media sources, nor do I remember hearing about any serious estimates that were far off from the consensus. Can you link to either of these things, or did you just kind of make this up?

  239. I don’t remember any kind of ferocious condemnation of differing herd immunity estimates from mainstream media sources, nor do I remember hearing about any serious estimates that were far off from the consensus. Can you link to either of these things, or did you just kind of make this up?

    I’m pretty sure I posted at least one article here last year. It was written by a guy that was more familiar with global warming/climate change issues, but he pointed out the problems with the assumptions in the conventional math and what a more reasonable expectation might be given various assumptions (lower).

    One guy was a Nobel prize winner that was supposed to be the key note speaker on his expertise (modeling of some sort) and a bunch of people threatened to boycott if even spoke because of his views and models on Covid.

    One was a woman I was following for awhile (I forget her name and actual expertise but it was primarily a mathematical argument she was making similar to the climate math guy). Some people were saying it was a brilliant paper and others savaged her, She was even tweeting about it how it was impacting her career even though they weren’t addressing the math.

    Rand Paul argued in congress that NY was doing better than the rest of the country because so many people were infected early on in NY so it was seeing the beginnings of herd immunity (based on these other models) and it wasn’t anything that Cuomo was doing right. Fauci trashed the hell out of him for suggesting that herd immunity might be lower and it was covered throughout the news that night.

    Obviously, I have no idea who is right, but I was following a lot of sources and was focusing on people with serious credentials and not whack jobs. There’s a mainstream view and another minority view.

  240. The Knicks have lost 5 of 6 and 10 of the last 14. Show starts on offense have been a major culprit. The Knicks have gone 2-9 (h/t @TheCohencidence) when trailing after the first quarter this season. Now is the time to start IQ.— StacyPatton (@StacyPatton89) February 3, 2021

  241. thenoblefacehumper

    Here’s the one article I may have posted here early last year. The author eventually elaborated further by saying some of his assumptions were dependent on the conditions in that location (population density etc..) and behavior of people but stuck by the his view that the conventional math was wrong. I’m not sure what he thinks now that way more data is available.

    He talks mostly about HIT which I “believe” is the point it stops growing exponentially .

    https://www.nicholaslewis.org/why-herd-immunity-to-covid-19-is-reached-much-earlier-than-thought/

  242. https://twitter.com/HornyHouseJr/status/1357098070916407297?s=20

    I verified this to see if it’s accurate, and it in fact is. The email registered to the possible burner is el************@gmail.com

    so it could be elfridpayton63@ gmail.com (or elfridpaytonxx, where ‘xx’ is presumably a number)@gmail

    This is either Elfrid Payton or a master troll. Either way, it’s fucking hilarious

  243. Also, there have been some mathematical models and theories out there that herd immunity would be reached sooner than conventional wisdom because of flaws in the generally accepted model.

    https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2020/07/herd-immunity-coronavirus/614035/

    it was gomes… and i’m pretty sure that has been put into the dustbin by now…. considering they claimed that herd immunity would be reached at 20%….

    which is especially laughable since we already had nyc antibody results that showed nyc was way over 20% back in april… which meant nyc was already at herd immunity….

    suffice to say… not true…

  244. I did some gigs backing Scarlett Johansson. She was so gorgeous it was actually physically uncomfortable to be around her, it was like staring into an eclipse or something. She was very sweet and professional and tried to act like one of the guys but it was super nerve wracking. She’d make small talk and I couldn’t even hear the words. I’d just nod.

    The first show we did was on French television and she got bad stage fright, and started sweating bullets right before we went on, started fanning herself with a magazine. It was next level adorable.

  245. Early Bird: You should watch Broken Flowers if you haven’t seen it already.

    Jarmusch is one of my favorite directors, he’s fantastic. So after you’ve seen Broken Flowers, when you can watch the rest of his movies, you won’t be disappointed. I love all of them, but if i had to select a few, then Only Lovers Left Alive would be one, and the first one of his films that i’ve seen in a theater where the audience was me and some girl on the other side of the room (lol)… it’s called Dead Man and it’s one of the best movies ever (oh, by the way, it’s a western, but not in the style westerns usually are, and it’s in black & white).

  246. JK47: Scarlett Johansson… She’d make small talk and I couldn’t even hear the words. I’d just nod.

    That’s a hell of a story, i envy you! ;)

  247. Jk47 you ve been starstruck such as many knicks fans with Frank! Also I’d say you sound like you’re in love with Scarlett but who ain’t!?!

    Dead man has a pretty good minimal NYoung film score.
    Seen it in cinema back when we used to go to cinema. I remember also Iggy Pop playing.
    One of JDepp’s serious movies.

  248. Top 5 Jarmusch Films
    1. Stranger than Paradise
    2. Dead Man
    3. Down by Law
    4. Ghost Dog
    5. Paterson

    Also nice to see John Lurie back with Painting with John. I wish he still could play music- love The Lounge Lizards.

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