NY Post: The Knicks’ biggest issue is rearing its ugly head again

From Zach Braziller:

The star of the Knicks’ preseason is already hurt. Two former lottery picks at the same position developed splinters on the first night. And their journeyman starter was unimpressive.

Point guard remains inarguably the Knicks’ No. 1 issue.

Immanuel Quickley, the first-round pick out of Kentucky who was already becoming a fan favorite after his strong performance in the final two exhibition games, suffered a hip pointer in the season-opening loss to the Pacers on Wednesday night and is listed as day-to-day. He was held out of a light workout Thursday after he felt tightness in his hip upon waking up.

“Hopefully, it won’t be long,” coach Tom Thibodeau said after Thursday’s practice.

Frank Ntilikina and Dennis Smith Jr., 2017 lottery picks (Smith was chosen by the Mavericks) who are still trying to establish themselves, didn’t do enough to impress Thibodeau during the preseason to warrant being part of his 10-man rotation. Even without Quickley in the second half Wednesday, Thibodeau opted to use Alec Burks at the point over Ntilikina and Smith, neither of whom got their rookie contract extensions by Monday’s deadline.

“Everything is based on performance,” said Thibodeau, who eventually turned to Ntilikina in the closing minutes Wednesday night. “You have to make tough decisions, and we have. But I never write anyone off, so long as they continue to work, and when their opportunity comes, just be ready.”

Then there is Elfrid Payton, the veteran who got the nod over Quickley in the starting lineup and was a minus-15 against Indiana, committing more turnovers (five) than he had assists (three) or made field goals (three).

It is uncertain if Quickley will be able to play in the home opener against the 76ers on Saturday at the fan-less Garden. Before he got hurt, Quickley scored five points and had an assist and a steal, continuing his quality play. Thursday was just a walk-through and the Knicks are off Friday, so he will be using the time to get treatment. Quickley suffered the injury in the second quarter after getting hip-checked by Pacers forward Myles Turner.

They really ought to at least give Smith a chance, no? Can he seriously be THAT bad at practice?

And, on that note, a final poll before Christmas…

Why isn't Dennis Smith Jr. playing?

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Merry Christmas, everyone!

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147 thoughts to “NY Post: The Knicks’ biggest issue is rearing its ugly head again”

  1. Maybe they don’t risk using DSJ cause he’s going to participate in America’s got talent.

  2. I don’t think he would be stubborn about Smith. The high ceiling version of Smith is exactly the kind of scoring point guard that Thibs likes. But we saw how bad smith looked on offense throughout the preseason, and we saw how bad the offense was overall in the second half last night. Thibs is going to play to win; if he thought DSJ was better than going with Burks and/or RJ at the point, he would have done it.

  3. i think that he sees quickle as at least a serviceable option…all else if subpar..

    he probably will give each guy a few games to see if anyone distinguishes themselves and then set the rotation…i just don’t want to see freakin austin rivers running around out there…I hope that groin gets reaggravated….

    I saw something on twitter that Frank is out indefinitely with a bruised psyche…

  4. Can’t wait to watch the annual Knicks Christmas day game tomorrow…who are we playing?

    Here’s hoping they’re finally back next year! I really can’t believe how much they’ve dissed the Knicks with these games that used to be Knick traditions. Would it really kill the ratings that much if one of the four games had a shitty team from New York playing in it?

  5. Brian Cronin: Here’s hoping they’re finally back next year! I really can’t believe how much they’ve dissed the Knicks with these games that used to be Knick traditions. Would it really kill the ratings that much if one of the four games had a shitty team from New York playing in it?

    Wouldn’t be a bad look if the league has a very bad team playing in “primetime”? If they put a good team against the Knicks, they risk a blowout, people changing channels on halftime and Knicks fans losing interest even more. If they put a bad team against the Knicks, they risk a shitty and low-level game, after which everyone would be talking about how bad the NBA is right now, and that only the superteams are good etc. One way or another, I don’t think it’s in the best interests of the league having the Knicks on national TV on such a glamorous day like Christmas :/

    The NFL can do that with Lions and Cowboys because the NFL makes money out of absolutely anything.

  6. Wouldn’t be a bad look if the league has a very bad team playing in “primetime”? If they put a good team against the Knicks, they risk a blowout, people changing channels on halftime and Knicks fans losing interest even more.

    The Knicks had national TV Christmas games in three seasons in a row when they had 24, 22 and 24 wins in those seasons! The Knicks started the Christmas tradition, they should find a way to get them involved in it again.

  7. for all you celebrating the birth of the baby jesus (whom I’m sure was a million times cuter than that big eared and eyes looking green rat thing rolling with mando) – hope you have a wonderful and safe day…

    for all you folks not celebrating anything in particular tomorrow – I hope you have a wonderful and safe day too…cuz, why not…having a good day should be like a daily goal…

    not planning on over indulging in watching basketball tomorrow…the bubble definitely had me feeling like too much of a good thing, may actually be a little too much…

    any specific games anyone looking forward to?

  8. DSjr seems like one of those high level athletes that makes some plays other players can’t, but they never put it all together. Whether it be work ethic, basketball IQ, injuries, or a combination of things they just don’t seem to get much better despite all the raw talent. I don’t think stubbornness has anything to with him not playing. DSJr is bad and Thibs knows it. But he sees the raw talent too. Like all the coaches before him he’s trying to bring it out and help him put it all together, but it’s not working. Personally. it’s easier for me to trust the high IQ gym rat. His “top” may not be as high, but he’ll get everything out of what he was blessed to work with.

  9. Merry Christmas Knickerbloggers!!!

    I wish they were playing today but I am also not sure if I want them to be ensconced as the Detroit Lions of the NBA, where the tradition becomes a testament to futility.

    Some good games otherwise….

  10. Merry Christmas KBers!
    Merry Christmas to you too DSJ!
    I know you’re lurking. I see your vote

  11. any specific games anyone looking forward to?

    I know they are the later games, but Mavs/Lakers and Nuggets/Clips are my picks. It will be interesting to see how Luka plays (he was sluggish game 1), and the Nuggets’ ability to run a motion office with legitimate passing is great to watch when it works.

    Enjoy whatever you celebrate today, everyone. We have earned it.

  12. DSJ and Frank have to see the floor and show out for their trade values, if nothing else.

    Thibs needs to chill on this “winning at all cost” thing, since this team tops out at like 24 wins even if everything breaks right.

    Plus, Elfrid is just unwatchable. Even Frank/DSJ stinking it up is more entertaining than Elfrid’s hopeless floaters.

  13. I didn’t vote because my option isn’t up there. DSJ isn’t playing because Quickley’s shooting and competent point guarding has outshines every stride DSJ has allegedly made this offseason. Oh..and Ntilikina has a rep as a defensive plus

    Merry Christmas all..I meant Happy Festivus! A Festivus for the rest of us! LOL

  14. Sadly, it looks like DSjr and Frank are toast. If Thibs grades Burks ahead of them on the depth chart, then once Rivers gets back they will really be buried on the bench.

  15. Merry Christmas to the smartest, most cultured, and crankiest bunch of guys I know!

    Also, geo not liking Baby Yoda is just one final shocker for 2020.

  16. You know who might be good? Zion Williamson. I don’t think the Pellies can hang too long with the Heat, but I do like the ol’ “head down, spin move, good luck stopping me” vibe he is bringing.

  17. We have to watch the trash ass Warriors get killed next when we could be watching the Knicks get killed instead.

  18. I don’t see how we can’t be on Lonzo if he fixes his shot.

    Would love to see him throwing lobs to Mitch on the break.

  19. Also, geo not liking Baby Yoda is just one final shocker for 2020.

    are you serious Doug Chu, did you not see that little monster creature gulping down them poor baby fish eggs like crazy…

    the thing is what, like 70 years old…for the last couple of decades its known nothing but war and being on the run and hiding out…before that it was training to be a “peacekeeper” by the jedi…not exactly the most peaceful group in that galaxy…

    probably a good chance it turns out to make ben solo and anakin skywalker seem like saints…

    hmmmmm, we all know what a great job baby yoda’s new mentor does in the future…

    the whole thing makes me wonder – where’s ezra?

  20. just watched svg greet zion coming off the court…gave him some encouragement going to the bench…

    that doesn’t quite seem to be thibs’ approach…when quickley told him something was wrong with his hip, it looked like thibs just waved him off and told him to go play defense…

    I kind of remember once or twice during the preseason a player complaining about something while coming off the court, and thibs not being too receptive…

  21. Miami is such a smart, well coached team, and almost perfectly constructed.

    Heat fans don’t deserve them.

  22. It’s early, but it feels like they were seven or eight guys who could give us real buyers remorse about taking Obi at 8 instead of them. Precious just looks like he belongs already.

  23. Happy Holidays KBers!

    Yes you can, which you did with that “1 assist” comment.

    Yeah, that was me. Look, IQ showed he can stay on the floor which is a big plus that I was unsure he’d reach. He didn’t show any particular ability to breakdown the defense and he didn’t contribute that much in general. Randle was the one breaking down the defense and the Knicks dropped 3s at 55% or something while the Pacers shot under 15% from the same. And they were doing a fair bit of offball movement and getting open. That’s why the first half went so well. But by the end of the first the Knicks were gassed. In the second the 3s stopped falling, the Pacers started hitting open shots, and the Knicks quit moving around and getting open. Because they really were not in game shape. Conditioning is a huge issue for them at the moment. The only Knicks player with anything left in the tank by the fourth was Randle who, sadly, probably is our best player at the moment.

    Did Payton suck? Yes, he did! Does that mean Quickley was the reason for the first half season? No, it does not. There’s nothing in the box score to support it and there’s not much “eye test” there either. You seem to think Quickley’s +/- is a big win for your argument but most of the team had an excellent +/- in the first half. He wasn’t the catalyst you seem to think he was.

  24. I sincerely hope Quickley turns out to be a great player but he’s got freaking miles to go. Which is normal! He can’t get to the rim. At least he believes he can’t get to the rim. He telegraphs his passes. He picks up his dribble at awkward moments. He’s impatient trying to beat defenders off the dribble which is going to lead to a lot of turnovers down the line. There are positives! He can change speeds and he’s fairly savvy about when to do so. He can hit threes. He’s got the beginnings of pretty good court vision. Most importantly he doesn’t seem overwhelmed or fazed too much by the speed of the game. I am a little concerned about his extremely upbeat attitude. Sometimes folks like that crash really hard when things keep going against them..

    It’s early, but it feels like they were seven or eight guys who could give us real buyers remorse about taking Obi at 8 instead of them. Precious just looks like he belongs already.

    Yep. I for one am shocked, shocked I say, that an older rookie who’s game was predicated on athleticism and dominating at the rim isn’t an immediate impact player in the NB- I’ll come in again.

  25. Alan:
    It’s early, but it feels like they were seven or eight guys who could give us real buyers remorse about taking Obi at 8 instead of them. Preciousjust looks like he belongs already.

    Haliburton is who I’m going to keep my eye on. He’s the guy I wanted going into the draft and I was heartbroken we didn’t take him.

  26. IQ’s first 12 minutes were better than his box score. On the road against a solid team.
    The kid is good.
    Sample is almost 0 but it’s good.
    It’s like a blood drop sample under the microscope.
    His “blood” is Nba rhesus plus.

  27. Otoh Obi has nice elements but needs a “slap” to be more aggressive.
    I’d propose power weightlifting, sexsexsex and mudhoney’s superfuzz bigmuff on repeat in his ‘walkman’

  28. I’m certainly not writing Obi off yet. But if one of the defenses of the pick was that he’d have a high floor and be more NBA-ready than the teenagers being taken around him, that does not seem to be turning out accurate. He could ultimately prove better than a lot of these guys, but his game also needs a lot of work. it is anxiety-producing so far.

  29. Wiggins with 6 points on 10 shots in 11 minutes. Can someone tell me if that’s good for a max player?

  30. Wiggins should donate half of his salary to a philanthropy if he wants to have a chance with karma

  31. DRed:
    Wiseman shows some flashes

    Yeah, he’s had some nice plays and a hell of a statline so far: 14 and 4 with 2 blocks on 5 shots including 2/2 from 3. That’s pretty nice.

    Also, RIP KC Jones.

  32. Arguably the worst max contract ever signed.

    Happy Xmas to those of you that I don’t find detestably, irredeemably stupid. Given that that’s most of you, I’ll stick around another year. Go Grizzlies!

  33. Man, GSW is bad. Unless Curry gets his hands on a time machine and starts playing like he did 5 years ago they’re not even going to compete for a playoff spot.

  34. Happy Holidays everyone! This blog was a great respite for me this year.

    IMO, the mantra of not trusting small sample sizes has been kind of perverted into you can never say anything positive about a player if the sample does is small and you can never trust your eyes about anything.

    IQ has looked good in preseason and in those 12 minutes. Saying that and hoping that it means he’ll be good isn’t ignoring sample size. It’s just making projections based on what you’ve seen so far. And your eyes aren’t lying to you when you watch the team go on a run or play better when he comes into the game. It’s just common sense. It doesn’t mean it will stay that way but to act like people are idiots for being hopeful based on good play is really being dogmatic with your philosophy.

  35. Same comments on Wisemen and Achiuwa Didn’t realize Wiseman was a real three point shooter. (may not be of course but 3-4 in game 2)

    And yeah, Warriors, woof. They are bad enough that Thanasis got minutes….

    Nets-Celtics is a major moral quandary. I think I am rooting for KD?

  36. Watching and liking IQ’s first nba steps is like checking a hot sexy babe who turns your head without trying.
    It doesn’t mean that she’s the one to marry or that she’s good hearted and educated and rich and great in bed but she’s definitely sexy! And that’s why you’re looking her!
    Sexy is sexy! And makes your dreams flexy!

  37. Merry Christmas to all who celebrate, and to those who don’t at least we have a bunch of great games on.

    It’s way, way too early to anything definitively and I want to stress that…but I think it’s reasonable to wonder if Steph is capable of the Harden/Luka/LeBron level of usage required to really drag an otherwise unspectacular team to 45+ wins.

    Sadly we might never get a fair answer as it’s possible he was in his prime (when he didn’t have to do it) but now isn’t. Personally I think he might be a guy who brings elite efficiency for his own possessions but has a less of a global impact than those dudes.

    He can certainly prove me wrong though, a lot of season left.

  38. Not sure if he is cooked but the hair might be killing his mojo. He hasn’t looked great to me so far but who knows.

    That was a great pass by Grant Williams

  39. KNICKS INJURY REPORT

    Immanuel Quickley (sore left hip) and Obi Toppin (sore right calf) are doubtful for the home opener on Saturday

    Austin Rivers (sore groin) and Omari Spellman (sore right knee) are out

    So that stinks. Get ready for lots of Knox at the 4, at least.

  40. I can’t believe I just watched a commercial for a laundry machine that used an Ol Dirty Bastard song.

  41. Maybe Frank gets some time. I wouldn’t mind.

    I have sort of forgotten that a well motivated and serene Kyrie is a hell of a player.

  42. IQ has looked good in preseason and in those 12 minutes. Saying that and hoping that it means he’ll be good isn’t ignoring sample size. It’s just making projections based on what you’ve seen so far. And your eyes aren’t lying to you when you watch the team go on a run or play better when he comes into the game. It’s just common sense.

    I don’t think he looked good, I think he looked encouraging. As if he might work out despite not being effective right now. And I do not think it is common sense the credit a player for things that other players did without – look, whatever. Happy holidays.

  43. PointG or PointF or PointC(Jokic!) is the only position i think that what the other four are doing should be (semi)credited to him since he’s the conductor of the “chamber ensemble”.
    In other words he is the one responsible if the other four are fucking around or play coach’s system correctly.
    Point(G’ or F’ or C’)s plus/Minus matters

  44. And in streenglish
    Watching this UglyFkn team playing good while IQ plays the point means that he’s a bad motherfucker!

  45. Knew Your Nicks:
    PointG or PointF or PointC(Jokic!) is the only position i think that what the other four are doing should be (semi)credited to him since he’s the conductor of the “chamber ensemble”.
    In other words he is the one responsible if the other four are fucking around or play coach’s system correctly.
    Point(G’ or F’ or C’)s plus/Minus matters

    I checked Randle’s +/- wasn’t good

  46. It’s not only that KD and Irving look pretty good. It’s that the Nets are possibly one of the 3 deepest teams in the league right now. Imagine thinking they’d be better off with the Knicks.

  47. Boston is mediocre until they get Kemba back, they have almost no shot creation outside of Tatum calling his own number

  48. Yeah, the Celtics have one the flattest talent distributions for a great team I can remember.

    Pretty excited the kids are asleep and Luka is on. Christmas finally arrived. And Tristan Thompson apparently.

  49. I don’t see why a torn achilles injury would be all that bad for a player like Durant. He doesn’t rely on explosion or verticality like, say, Dominique or Kobe. That long, lanky frame looks pretty ageless to me.

  50. That’s insane, Z-man. I’ve heard this over and over. Durant is an explosive player. He’s just also very tall and has a beautiful shot. Go and watch his damn highlights. He blows by defenders with burst moves all the time. Acting like he’s a tall Andre Miller is just flat out wrong.

    He also appears to have used the time off well. I did not expect him to be this good again.

  51. Happy Holidays, everyone! Having our two rookies miss the rest of 2020 would be a fitting end to this miserable year.

  52. #I checked Randle’s +/- wasn’t good#

    A positive plus/minus means not only a functional offense but at the same time a Pretty good D.
    Randle’s assists are a noisy stat like Elf’s assists which show that they gave the pass before a successful shot.
    That doesn’t always mean that their playmaking is great tho…
    Or that the D is set for success…

  53. The Honorable Cock Jowles:
    That’s insane, Z-man. I’ve heard this over and over. Durant is an explosive player. He’s just also very tall and has a beautiful shot. Go and watch his damn highlights. He blows by defenders with burst moves all the time.

    Does this mean I didn’t make the cut of your holiday wish?

    KD will continue to blow by defenders even if he blows out his other achilles and both ACLs because he is the greatest shooting and ball-handling 6’10” player who ever lived.

  54. Knew Your Nicks:
    #I checked Randle’s +/- wasn’t good#

    A positive plus/minus means not only a functional offense but at the same time a Pretty good D.
    Randle’s assists are a noisy stat like Elf’s assists which show that they gave the pass before a successful shot.
    That doesn’t always mean that their playmaking is great tho…
    Or that the D is set for success…

    You may want to re-read what you wrote and think about it for awhile.

  55. #You may want to re-read what you wrote and think about it for awhile#

    What’s wrong with my “jazz rock improvisation”?

  56. Correction: All I Want for Christmas is AD, in a Knicks uniform.

    Lakers look ready to roll again. I didn’t really get the Schroder transaction, never loved him, but this is a good team.

  57. At the risk of counting our chickens before they hatch, feels a bit like people were too blasé about the Mavs losing Seth Curry. Also I will reiterate that there is zero chance they could trade Porzingis for two first round picks right now.

  58. Josh Richardson is good on defense but yeah. Seth Curry has been sneakily efficient and solid. Just too duplicative with Hardaway around?

  59. thenoblefacehumper: Also I will reiterate that there is zero chance they could trade Porzingis for two first round picks right now.

    This is a false statement. They could easily get that and more. Lots of dumb GMs out there.

  60. if any of you are planning to watch “Soul” this weekend, beware that there is a joke in there that will cut you to your very core.

  61. KP has an enormous contract and is always hurt. I don’t know. They might get two late first rounders.

    Lately, I am kind of feeling like NBA players are really figuring out health and longevity. Maybe KP comes out of the hurt locker and goes on to be a durable star. Wouldn’t want to bet on it but yeah, someone might.

    Luka looks sluggish like he did his first game

  62. The Dubs are probably not as bad as they have looked. They just played two of the top 5 teams in the league and Draymond is out. They have some new parts and a good coach.

    If anything, how bad they look represents how good the league is right now. I, for one, am glad that the league hasn’t expanded. We’re getting to the point where most non-playoff teams have NBA-level rotations 8-10 players deep and a couple of stars. Exception: Your…New…York…Knicks!

  63. Owen:
    KP has an enormous contract and is always hurt. I don’t know. They might get two late first rounders.

    Lately, I am kind of feeling like NBA players are really figuring out health and longevity. Maybe KP comes out of the hurt locker and goes on to be a durable star. Wouldn’t want to bet on it but yeah, someone might.

    Luka looks sluggish like he did his first game

    KP got hurt in the playoffs and is missing the first 2-3 weeks of the season. If it was a regular off-season he wouldn’t have missed any time. He is widely viewed as a star in the league. Two firsts is really not that much. The Celts probably give that up in a heartbeat.

  64. They certainly can’t play any defense on the Lakers without him.

    How am I just becoming aware that Chuck bet 100K on the Blazers to win the West?

  65. Remember the poll on whether we’d trade RJB for the #1 in this draft? I voted no, and Barrett played great so far but can I take it back for James Wieseman? Please? (the stats also look great.)

  66. 5 games and none of them were close in the fourth quarter.

    Said it upthread but I can’t believe Batum just had 13 -10-4 for the Clippers in 36 minutes. I thought he was going back to France but apparently the salary dump we considered is going to start on the best team in the league.

  67. I’m all for players getting whatever they can get, but yeah, ooph, Batum sleepwalking through the past couple of seasons in Charlotte, only to start giving a shit again after he is cut is a bit tough to see.

  68. Wiseman shows some flashes

    He already has a much more complete game than Robinson. In a few months he’ll probably be less green also. That looks like a score for the Warriors.

  69. Ntilakilla:
    Please, Mavs, keep on losing…

    They are not the same team without a solid #2 option stretching the floor several feet out past the 3 point line giving Luka more room to drive and either score or make a play. Then they are missing him protecting the paint on the other side.

  70. Batum has struggled with injuries. When you hit 30, start having injury problems, and then come back healthy off a layoff. sometimes you get a Pau Gasol or Nicolas Batum that still has something left in the tank and sometimes you get a party animal that clubs all night, takes performance enhancers and gets suspended, and attacks the coach for not playing.

  71. They are not the same team without a solid #2 option stretching the floor several feet out past the 3 point line giving Luka more room to drive and either score or make a play. Then they are missing him protecting the paint on the other side.

    Seeing as how the Mavs still managed a 116 ORtg in 1823 non-Porzingis minutes last season, this seems a little overly simplistic. My read is that while not having Porzingis definitely hurts, they underestimated Seth Curry’s value and were too quick to assume THJ could repeat last season.

    They’ll be a lot better as Luka plays himself into shape and more of his shots go down, but they could find themselves in a dogfight to make the playoffs. What a shame that would be!

  72. Wiseman was my pick for rookie of the year in the Knickerblogger poll. I’m not a draft expert, but my pick wasn’t a whim either. Of the top guys in the draft he was clearly the most NBA ready from the analyses I paid attention too, and he was going to a team that had a hole at his position, so he would get the playing you need to get ROY attention.

  73. They are not the same team without a solid #2 option stretching the floor several feet out past the 3 point line giving Luka more room to drive and either score or make a play. Then they are missing him protecting the paint on the other side.

    Posts like this make everyone dumber for having read it. We went over this last year. You were given accurate information and you disregarded it like a degenerate gambler on a meritless hunch. Stop dragging the basketball discussion down with your baseless conjecture, especially when you’ve already been corrected.

  74. Man if Dallas only had undiscovered superstar Frank Ntilikina on their roster they’d really be something

    Phil Jackson is teh bestest

  75. i wouldn’t get too excited over wiseman… it’s not exactly dominating stuff and getting hot from 3 isn’t the most sustainable thing in the world….

    the rumblings with him from high school was that he too often settled for jumpers and he wasn’t particularly strong inside… it’s less true now but you could see some of that showing through particularly some early trouble scoring in 2p territory…

    i still would take edwards #1…

  76. djphan: getting hot from 3 isn’t the most sustainable thing in the world

    Sure, and his free throws % is under 70 so far. But he’s super athletic, and does not look like he’ll struggle in the paint for very long, if at all. Then he may actually be able to make 3s at a reasonable rate. I don’t see a ceiling yet.

  77. Hahahahaha James Wiseman doesn’t turn 20 until March 31. He utterly destroyed college competition Zion-style and would have continued to get better if he stuck around. But yeah, let’s wait a while before getting excited about him.

  78. He destroyed three D2 teams and that was his college. But yeah, I’d be very excited if we had him. I thought he would be ROY. Just excited to see how he turns out and whether my early read was correct or not (i.e. perfectly realized Kwame Brown.)

  79. No one was saying that when Zion was destroying teams on his Canada tour. And his 3rd game was against Oregon, hardly a D2 opponent, , where he had 14 points and 12 rebounds on 5-8 shooting in 22 minutes as an 18yo.

    Had he stayed in college he would have been the runaway #1 pick. I guess folks learned from passing over Mitch.

  80. Wiseman’s only real question mark physically and skill-wise is whether he can defend in space. It’s a serious question in today’s game. But everything else is real. He can shoot 3’s and FTs well enough. He’s a dominant inside presence. And in a normal NBA season he’d be 19 for almost all of it. His ceiling is somewhere between Embiid and KAT.

  81. Not disagreeing at all. I love Wiseman and would have taken him #1 with only mild misgivings (I heart Okongwu).

    Some people have thrown out a Whiteside comp,, an empty accumulator with motivation issues.

    I am rooting for him and am very interested to see how he turns out

  82. Wiseman is the real deal. I don’t see major holes in his game but I’ve only seen a little of him.

  83. there’s a lot more question marks with wiseman… the many things that go into inide scoring… that’s partially to blame for a low 2p%… esp a slow load up point are one of them… 3pt shooting isnt the most important thing in the world … esp for a big ..

    I know it’s tough to stay away from the hot takes.. but unfortunately the jury is still out on whether wiseman will be as good as embiid or kat after two games….

  84. So just to be clear, the Knicks have Dallas’ 2021 1st rd pick unprotected correct? It’s the 2023 1st rd pick that is protected I think Top 5 or Top 10 correct? I really think Dallas will struggle to make the playoffs this season, would be pretty awesome to have 2 lottery picks in the next draft. Granted then we’d have to hope the Knicks make good draft picks….

  85. Re: Toppin, I expect (hope) his offense will improve; Thibs just has to insist he get touches in the pick and roll, preferably with RJ. That needs to be his bread and butter along with transition scoring and wide open threes.

    The defense, though, will be a major issue. I think he might actually be useful as a weak side help defender, but, unfortunately, opposing offenses will almost always look to go right at him.

    I don’t see him improving much on that end, at least this year. But they need to play him and use him correctly on offense if they want to maximize his value.

  86. I’ll go out on a limb and say Wiseman doesn’t keep shooting 80% from 3.

    Z-man:
    No one was saying that when Zion was destroying teams on his Canada tour. And his 3rd game was against Oregon, hardly a D2 opponent, , where he had 14 points and 12 rebounds on 5-8 shooting in 22 minutes as an 18yo.

    Had he stayed in college he would have been the runaway #1 pick. I guess folks learned from passing over Mitch.

    Wiseman has a sample of 1. Zion has a sample of ~30.

  87. As is typical, the word “ceiling “ was not considered in a certain response. Communication is so much more effective when we respond to what is actually said.

    Does anyone disagree that Wiseman would have been by far the consensus #1 had he stayed in college?

    Does anyone disagree that based on all evidence we have right now that his CEILING is between KAT and Embiid?

  88. Re: Toppin, I expect (hope) his offense will improve; Thibs just has to insist he get touches in the pick and roll, preferably with RJ. That needs to be his bread and butter along with transition scoring and wide open threes.

    Since Thibs and his assistants seem to know what they’re doing in a way a Knicks coaching staff hasn’t since… D’Antoni? Van Gundy?… I believe that if there is a way for Obi’s college game to translate (or even improve), they will find it. He’s got to get healthy first, though.

  89. Z-man: Does anyone disagree that based on all evidence we have right now that his CEILING is between KAT and Embiid?

    Maybe AD?

  90. AD is in a class by himself. Both KAT and Embiid are pure 5’s with some flaws in the position-less game of today, mainly on the defensive perimeter. Wiseman seems heavy-footed like those two.

  91. wiseman wasnt in kats or embiids class because kat and embiid solidified their consensus #1 status over the course of the college season….. then went on to perform across a wide variety of box score metrics which reflect a deep and diverse skillset…

    wiseman isn’t there yet… not from two games and not from the four games in college… plenty of bigs have showed out against weak non conference opponents…. okafor and ayton as recent examples….

    wiseman’s upside was never near kat or embiid… that was universal… or else he would’ve went #1… he was ranked as low as #10 because he was a bit soft in high school and with low rebounding and low 2p% that’s a sneak peek into that….

    that doesn’t mean he can’t overcome that in 2 games….2 games is 2 games…. but you can’t also say there’s evidence that he’s something else… because there isn’t… there is no evidence….. he hasn’t shown the rebounding… and he hasn’t the dominance in the paint… not yet at least .. that’s what he’s missing and until he shows that on a consistent basis the jury is still out…

  92. If Wiseman is one of the best shooters in the NBA, we can project him as a 40% 3pt shooter. If we take that optimistic outcome, then his NBA TS% nosedives from over .600 to .510 when we plug in his expected outcome instead of his actual outcome.

    Suddenly we’re having a very different conversation about Wiseman. He’s not a bad prospect, but you’re not comparing him to Embiid or KAT after 2 games.

    Maybe Wiseman gets there, but he hasn’t shown anything in his 5 college/NBA games to warrant it.

  93. The comparison is about ceiling and style of play. What would you say his ceiling is? What distinguishes him from Embiid at 19 years old?

  94. Wiseman is not like Okafor or Ayton. He’s at the very least a vastly superior rim protector than either of those guys. If the 3 is for real (and he must be doing it in practice for Kerr to be okay with him launching them) then he will have that dimension over either of those 2. If the FT shooting is 70+% then he will have that over Okafor. They really have little in common. Embiid is the best physical comparison.

  95. Man, Obi and Quickley being out really sort of stripped a lot of my excitement for this game. At least Barrett and Mitch are still playing!

  96. they are not comps they are examples of players who showed out in their first 4 games but over the course of the season showed what their weaknesses were… we have a larger sample of eybl games to judge wiseman off of…. and it speaks to his current struggles in key areas… those current struggles in key areas will hold him back if it continues….

    and if we are talking about ceilings then why stop at kat or embiid? why aren’t we invoking hakeem or russell or duncan or robinson?

    if we want a reasonable conversation we need reasonable parameters…. that’s what pollutes all the conversations about quickley or frank…. it’s ok to thinslice but we all after all these years should have a decent handle on what small samples mean…. especially when you should know plenty of examples where 2 games gave you a way different impression of a player than they ended up with…. this isnt the first season of basketball we have all seen I hope…

  97. Another Knicks game? Let’s see how the team does at home! :)

    For now, i’m having the same “reads” as you guys… there’s the good (RJ), the expected (Mitch), maybe a surprise (Quickley) and the bad (Obi, Knox). But it’s too soon, so let’s hope things can get better with more games (although this next 2 games aren’t ideal for a bounce back).

  98. Alan:
    Ooof. Check out our starting lineup the last time we beat Philly.

    That team looks even worst than our current team, so i’ll bet that we won because Philly was still in “the process” and were tanking hard.

  99. That team looks even worst than our current team, so i’ll bet that we won because Philly was still in “the process” and were tanking hard.

    It was, in fact, the infamous “Ndour game” that meant that the Knicks got to draft Frank instead of Markkanen, because winning meaningless games at the end of the season to screw over their draft position is a big part of what we do around here.

  100. Brian Cronin:
    Man, Obi and Quickley being out really sort of stripped a lot of my excitement for this game. At least Barrett and Mitch are still playing!

    Could we have some Iggy? Or will Thibs do an even tighter rotation to (foolishly try to) win?

  101. If we avoid 0-3 i promise to buy me a champagne.
    A French one! A cheap promising French one!!

  102. Brian Cronin: It was, in fact, the infamous “Ndour game” that meant that the Knicks got to draft Frank instead of Markkanen.

    So that W was a L. A double L in fact, because we lost the subsequent coin flip for the draft order.

  103. #This shouldn’t be our goal. Our goal should be to develop the kids#

    Kids wanna win from time to time to be healthily developed

  104. Not a single fucking one of my coworkers better text me about that new Pixar movie Soul…

  105. THCJ- my son just snuck a peek at my phone, read out “The Honorable Covk JOWLES?”

    And started giggling hysterically and running around the room chanting Cock Jowles! Cock Jowles.

    It’s a winner

  106. ESPN Stats & Info:
    The Warriors are the 4th team in NBA history to lose their first 2 games by at least 25 points each (last: 1989-90 Warriors). Today’s 39-point loss is the largest margin of defeat on Christmas by any team since 1960.

  107. I genuinely don’t remember how “Cock Jowles” became one of my many personas, but I’m glad someone out there shares my joyous reaction to the euphonious sound of the thing.

    Edit: Lady Jowles weighs in and also likes it, which has prompted the question, “So why have I never heard you utter it during private moments, my dear?”

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