Knicks Need An “A” In Free Agency

So today the 2015 NBA free agency season begins. For the New York Knicks, this perhaps will be the most critical juncture of the Phil Jackson era. Originally the plan to rebuild the Knicks seemed to center around the draft and free agency. However with New York falling to the 4th pick during the draft lottery, the weight of the team’s future has shifted toward acquiring veterans. While it’s possible that Porzingis is the future of New York Basketball, from a strictly statistical perspective, it’s highly unlikely that he’ll be a future top 10 player. Hence it reasons that for the Knicks, free agency is the more likely route to a winning franchise.

Many of the potential free agents are going to be unavailable to New York. LeBron James isn’t walking through those Garden doors (in a Knicks uniform). Neither are Kawhi Leonard, Marc Gasol, Jimmy Butler, Tim Duncan, and Draymond Green, as all of these players are expected to stay with their current team. That leaves just few A-listers remaining for the rest of the NBA to divide.

And the Knicks really need an A-list free agent.

New York won only 17 games last year, their worst showing in franchise history. Right now the team has one star player that missed half of last season, a sophomore coach with questionable ability, a teenage lottery pick that may not be contributing much his first season, and a roster that arguably lacks another NBA caliber starter (ok maybe Jose Calderon — if they keep him).

Given the desperate need of the Knicks to make a splash in this free agency, there is one player they should be targeting: DeAndre Jordan.

I’m not really sure I need to make the case for Jordan on the Knicks. But if there are any questions, let me set all doubts aside. Jordan led the league in rebounds and field goal percentage for the last 2 years. He’s played 82 games in each of the last 3 seasons, and will only be 27 years old next year. The 6-11 center is one of the premier defenders in the league at a position where defense is key.

Perhaps Knick fans are worried about his offense. Sure his offensive repertoire is limited, and this might be a problem if the Knicks were centered around let’s say Danillo Gallinari or David Lee. But isn’t the upside of having Carmelo Anthony supposed to be the ripple effect that his shot creation gives the rest of the team? Last I checked, the Knicks offense was fine when Anthony was paired with Tyson Chandler, a player with nearly identical strengths and weaknesses. And I don’t buy the argument that Jordan wouldn’t fit the triangle offense. The Bulls excelled with Dennis Rodman, a player whose contributions were limited to assisted baskets around the hoop and scoring opportunities created off of offensive rebounds.

Now getting Jordan is another story. On one hand, it appears that the center has opened the door to leaving the Clippers. On the other, every team with the ability to land him will likely be giving him the same offer as New York. Dallas will offer him a job in his home state, with an established coach, a team that has success over the last 15 years, and an owner that is liked by the public. Or basically the exact opposite of the Knicks.

Although the Knicks do have Phil Jackson, Carmelo Anthony, and a lively cultural city that isn’t a suburb united under the guise of a metropolis. In all seriousness, this is what Knick fans have been led to believe. The bright lights of the Big Apple would appeal to the biggest stars of the league. Getting All-Star Carmelo Anthony, as opposed to merely an above-average scoring forward, was the key to open the door to those unreachable free agents. And Phil Jackson would be the vizier, the architect, the salesman, that would reel in the big fish. If New York can’t lure DeAndre to sign with them, then perhaps they’re paying Carmelo Anthony and Phil Jackson for attributes that don’t actually exist.

There may be many paths to a winning franchise for the Knicks. However I’m hard pressed to think of a better way than landing DeAndre Jordan to anchor the defense and compliment Carmelo Anthony.

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Mike Kurylo

Mike Kurylo is the founder and editor of KnickerBlogger.net. His book on the 2012 Knicks, "We’ll Always Have Linsanity," is on sale now. Follow him on twitter (@KnickerBlogger).

394 thoughts to “Knicks Need An “A” In Free Agency”

  1. What are the Nets doing? They just hatched one third of their cap space in 2016 to Brook Lopez and Thaddeus Young. I understand the whole “not having draft picks” thing, but 12.5 million per year to an aging Young (hehe. see what I did?) strikes as vintage Billy King.

    That said, I really hope this Afflalo thing is false. While Monroe is not exactly my cup of tea, he’s young and fairly productive. Afflalo looks like he’s just months from freefalling to the ground, and he has no business being around a rebuilding team (as already shown in Orlando, where he played very well but in the end didn’t move the needle). I would be kinda meh if we signed him for 16mln/2yrs, go figure if we go 48mln/4yrs.

  2. The offers being reported on some of the wings is pretty damn steep. NY would be better off getting their max guy, whether that’s Monroe, Jordan, Aldridge or maybe Carroll, then sitting back and waiting for all the other teams to spend like drunken sailors on mediocre guards. After that there will be some bargains to be had.

  3. You might be right that Jordan is the Knicks best play. At the same time, I wouldn’t expect 2014-15 DeAndre Jordan going forward. Everything else aside, there’s a decent chance that was a career year. I also worry about his transition to a different environment, though, and especially the Knicks environment. He fell in the draft due to attitude and commitment concerns, as I remember. Combine that with separating him from Chris Paul, Blake Griffin, and Doc Rivers… and I think there’s a decent chance he regresses a little.

    I still expect a valuable NBA player. You might be buying high, though, and a max might be a slight overpay.

  4. They just hatched

    *hitched

    NY would be better off getting their max guy, whether that’s Monroe, Jordan, Aldridge or maybe Carroll, then sitting back and waiting for all the other teams to spend like drunken sailors on mediocre guards. After that there will be some bargains to be had.

    Completely agree. I don’t see any sense in signing a wing to an overpriced salary just to spend. Some of the available wings on the bottom end:

    Gerald Green
    Marco Belinelli
    Jeff Taylor (fucking womenbeater, though)
    Will Barton
    Wayne Ellington (the return!)
    John Jenkins
    Rodney Stuckey

    While I wouldn’t be happy with anyone of them (except for Belinelli, maybe), I’d much prefer signing one of them on a 10mln/2yrs contract than anything that’s been reported outside of the Monroe deal.

  5. Jordan’s a pretty nice piece but i’m pretty sure we’d be getting a slightly worse clippers version… his offense is generated entirely off of offensive rebs and assisted goals… that and i think it’s unclear how big his defensive impact would be… the clips always rank in the middle of the pack defensively and i don’t think it’s entirely blake griffin’s fault…

    i think if you factor in age and cost, the difference between jordan and monroe is pretty small and i think monroe would actually end up being better…

  6. Yup, sign Monroe to as much as you can pay him, because it will still be a bargain in this environment, and then see what happens in the wing market, both in free agency and in possible salary dump trades.

    There will be no bargains at this stage of FA, and likely no bargains at all for a team as historically terrible as ours.

  7. Lillard is on the verge of being terribly overvalued. But I guess Portland couldn’t do anything different.

  8. What are the Nets doing? They just hatched one third of their cap space in 2016 to Brook Lopez and Thaddeus Young. I understand the whole “not having draft picks” thing, but 12.5 million per year to an aging Young (hehe. see what I did?) strikes as vintage Billy King.

    Young and Lopez are 27, a good age to sign them long term (although Lopez injuries are scary). I mean, they need to keep somebody, and they are the players more likely to have trade value for the next years.

  9. Pretty crazy that Aminu went from making less than a mil last season to getting 32 million by playing exactly like Al-Farouq Aminu.

    Lillolard

  10. If Goran Dragic is worth 90 million for 5 years I would offer CoJo 40 million for 4 in a hearbeat.

  11. Young and Lopez are 27

    Whoa, my bad. I don’t know why but I thought Young was at least 30. Well, it’s much more sensible then.

  12. Imagine being the agent of Steph Curry in this moment.

    Although, it has to be said that a deservedly paid Curry would probably be a ringless Curry.

  13. I’m only worried about FT shooting, Mike. How can his all around play mitigate the fact that he can’t play in crunch time?

    NOW STOP (I expect it from Ian O’Connor, but not here) putting Phil’s whole tenure (“attributes that don’t actually exist”?) on whether he can, RIGHT NOW, romance some “big name” into “saving” our franchise. Even a “defense first hyper efficient” one.

    Melo is here three more years, the 2016 pick is gone, but other than that this ain’t your slightly older uncle’s Knicks and that’s Phil. Everyone signed can actually play (with the cap going up!) or is on a minimum deal. (No E Curry, J James, STAT, Bargs corpses with NO future, that we have to actually watch play this season). Our strength is who is NOT on our team. Unless Mark with a c comes over, Phil’s best off season may be one where he doesn’t do anything splashy and takes his lickin’ from the stupid mainstreamers. He may do that. Don’t imply that he doesn’t have the attributes to do it right if he can’t get Jordan.

    Phil had an exceptional draft. I’d say he’s handling this shit marvelously so far. I’m so excited to see what he does. GO NYK!

  14. It’s all happening. Millsap offered $80m/4 years with Orlando. Very good player but likely to be a problem making $20 million when he’s 33.

  15. Bargs corpses with NO future

    I wouldn’t be so sure this is the last we’ve seen of Bargs.

  16. Gerald Green would be a really good signing for the value, I think. He’s older now, but he can play either wing spot competently. If he comes cheaper than most everyone else, I think you have to take that.

  17. Magic Lineup for the next 4 years?
    Elfrid Payton
    Oladipo
    Hezonja
    Millsap
    Vucevic

    Bunch of young guys and Millsap could turn out good.

  18. I agree with the notion that they must sign Monroe quickly. It’ll help sell other players on coming.

  19. I’d like us to come out of free agency without having done something really stupid.

  20. I’d like us to come out of free agency without having done something really stupid.

    This is why we need DRed as GM.

  21. I’d like us to come out of free agency without having done something really stupid.

    That would be wonderful, wouldn’t it? There will be bargains to be had once the initial spending frenzy dies down and the more desperate teams fill their cap space. I really hope we’re not one of those desperate teams…

  22. I’d like us to come out of free agency without having done something really stupid.

    Like signing Aaron Afflalo

  23. I’d like us to come out of free agency without having done something really stupid.

    Word

  24. I’d like us to come out of free agency without having done something really stupid.

    This is exactly what I came here to post. I think not getting an ‘F’ is a much higher priority than getting an ‘A’. Even if we used our space in the best way possible this summer the team still will have a ways to go to contention. This is a long process and the biggest key is not making any moves that are big steps in the wrong direction. Giving out some awful contract to Afflalo that two years from now we end up using a first round pick to dump – that’s the kind of crap we can’t afford. Incremental progress is the key.

  25. Wow Millsap getting $20M/year – good for him.
    I’m assuming Atlanta will match, which means lots of their bench guys will probably need to go, especially if they’re going to try and keep Carroll. I’d take Mike Scott, Kent Bazemore, or even Thabo off their hands if they throw a sweetener in.

  26. Dunleavy 3yr/$15mil. There is hope for us yet! Keep the prices down!!

    I would go for Tayshaun on the cheap, and/or maybe somehow trade for James Johnson.

  27. by the way I think we all need to change our mindset on the #s that will come out this FA signing period. A guy that was worth $6MM last year is going to get $9-10MM+ this year, if not more. Afflalo at $10-12MM might be considered a good deal. Not saying I want Afflalo at that price (I’d much rather have Danny Green or Carroll at $12-13MM if they’ll take it), but just that it’s not ridiculous. Last year was a bad year for Afflalo but he’s not a bad player.

    That’s why I’m all for Greg Monroe at his max. I love Millsap but paying him $80MM through age 34 or whatever seems like a much worse deal than Monroe for $60-65MM through age 29.

    The maxes are relative discounts for the mini-max crowd. We better get used to it. Even marginal players will probably get the MLE from capped out teams because even those deals will look good when the cap explodes (check out Zach Lowe’s article from yesterday).

  28. Afflalo might be considered a good deal if he signed for a year. 12 million for 4 years??

  29. No reason to spend money just because it’s there. We can keep our cap space and make lopsided trades during the season with teams looking to dump salary and get some assets in return. I’d be happy taking DLee off of GSW’s hands for Looney and an additional asset.

  30. @ShamsCharania
    The Knicks have held preliminary discussions with free agent vet Willie Green, speaking twice since midnight, league sources tell RealGM.

    “Hello, is this Draymond Green?”

    “Nah, this is Will-”

    *click*

    “Draymond, this is Phil Jackson”

    “I already told you old man, this is Willie Gree-”

    *click*

    Any other scenario is troubling.

  31. Willie Green at the vet min is still much, much better than Afflalo at 48mln/4yrs.

  32. At the same time, I wouldn’t expect 2014-15 DeAndre Jordan going forward. Everything else aside, there’s a decent chance that was a career year.

    Why? He’s had the same per-minute stats for 2 years in a row? When you have multiple career years in the primae ages of your career, I believe it’s called a peak, not a fluke.

    his offense is generated entirely off of offensive rebs and assisted goals… that and i think it’s unclear how big his defensive impact would be… the clips always rank in the middle of the pack defensively and i don’t think it’s entirely blake griffin’s fault

    I’m fine with his “assisted offense”. The thing is he actually converts the shots given to him. If he was sub-50% TS%, then we’d know he’s a complete drain on the offense. But he’s at 62%. This worked great with Tyson Chandler. I don’t think a player that needs to be accounted for near the hoop (and on the boards) is a detriment to the offense.

    And how much of an impact on the defense is a legit question. However I’d argue the Clips were a top 10 defense in the two years prior, and last year were still in the top half (albeit 15th means they were merely average).

    And I’d like to ask: what would the impact of a Monroe/Melo pairing be on the defense? The Knicks defense ceiling with these two is likely to be the floor with Jordan.

    I’m only worried about FT shooting, Mike. How can his all around play mitigate the fact that he can’t play in crunch time?

    Another legit concern. Certainly his biggest flaw. However Phil/Fish have experience with this re: Shaq & Rodman. And the NBA is a bit friendlier with the rules these days (2 minute left foul rule).

  33. I’m only worried about FT shooting, Mike. How can his all around play mitigate the fact that he can’t play in crunch time?

    That’s Cole’s time.

  34. his offense is generated entirely off of offensive rebs

    Plenty of those available here!

  35. Any love for Tobias Harris? If Orlando gets Millsap it seems pretty likely Harris will be get-able with a reasonable offer.

    By the #s he’s a great post-up guard, had a career best 3p% year (on a career high volume too). There’s some overlap with Melo but at the very least he’d probably push Melo to the 4 on defense. And he’s only 22 so perhaps still some upside with him. Meh.

  36. Harris is very Melo-y. I suppose I’d rather have him than Melo, as he’s younger and cheaper, but I’m not sure I’d want him AND Melo. If he was available at something of a discount, sure, pick him up, and worry about maybe trading him a year from now.

  37. Monroe is looking more and more like a must get. Just give him the mini-max for however many years he wants, then play coy for awhile and see who might slip through the cracks to become a good value.

    If they don’t get him, they’ll need to shift gears quickly to Robin Lopez or Koufous. Scary what they’ll get with some of the #s being thrown around. As Lowe said, it may not be possible to actually overpay for anyone. Even Afflalo might get his 4/$48m, just not from the Knicks, I hope.

    I sense a trade or two coming up. Lots of teams looking to trade guys now to open up space or later will want to trade guys to dump salary. That may be where bargains are to be had.

  38. I think Kevin is right, get your 1 big guy then wait. I would not pay Affolo much more than Dunleavy got, unless he takes a 1 year deal, or team option in year 2. I’d give Schved $4M before I sign Affolo at more than $5M / year.

  39. @Chris_Broussard Sources: Danny Green has agreed to a 4 year, $45 million deal with the Spurs

    Another one bites the dust… And at a reasonable price, at that.

  40. Is it possible that Monroe’s defensive stats looks pedestrian, in part, because he was playing next to Drummond? I think its clear that his offensive rebounding took a hit once he started playing with Drummond. I have to think playing in a different system, and not having another 7-footer next to him fighting for rebounds may help his numbers.

    On another note, any chance we could flip Larkin to grab a 2 guard with 1 or 2 years left on a reasonable contract.

  41. @Chris_Broussard Sources: Danny Green has agreed to a 4 year, $45 million deal with the Spurs

    Another one bites the dust… And at a reasonable price, at that.

    Can’t imagine why he’d rather resign with the Spurs than come play for the Knicks. Hard to believe…

  42. Good news is, Spurs shouldn’t have any money left after Green and Leonard…Patty Mills?

  43. I’m sad to see Danny Green off the board (assuming that it is true), esp. for a reasonable deal, but the Knicks could use that as a negotiating tactic for the likes of Afflalo. No way is he worth making what Danny Green does.

    Gotta admire the Spurs. They are keeping the core.

  44. Danny Green resigned with the Spurs.
    Gotta sign Monroe now. How did we let him out of the building without his name on a contract?
    @39 – Re: Tobias Harris. I think he’s a good fit even with Melo. Another point to make was that Isiah Thomas was on the NBA-TV Free Agent special last night singing the praises of Harris as a star in the making. Does that mean anything in the world of the Knicks?

  45. Pop is basically operating a cult at this point. Brainwashing these dudes out of their money.

  46. Where are all the 1-2 year deals expected from the young stars? Leonard is taking 5 years, latest rumor on Butler is that he’s now leaning to a 5 year deal. No one, yet, is going for the short deal to try to really cash in on the bigger caps of the next 2 years. I guess a bird in the hand really is worth 2 in the bush…

    Maybe Monroe?

  47. Whoa Splitter to the Hawks, guess Spurs are getting LMA

    Yup. Would’ve been nice to get in on that action, but we don’t know if the Hawks gave up anything in the deal or just got Splitter for free (if not along with a bonus).

    If the Spurs can sign Aldridge in the same off-season where they retain Kawhi, Green and (probably) Duncan? Holy crap.

  48. I’d really like to see LMA on the Spurs to see if they can make him into a productive player.

  49. I’m hearing Cory Joseph is offering to play for free under little known CBA provision that allows him to intern as Pop’s man-servant.

  50. Kawhi is 24 and Butler is 25. Signing for 90M is a no-brainer. When their contracts are up, if they’re still top-tier players, they can sign absurdo contracts for the back-half of their peaks.

    I like the idea that some of these guys might sacrifice guaranteed money for shots at super deals later, but I think the reality of the situation is that very few will take that bet.

  51. DeMarre Carroll @DeMarreCarroll1 #WeThe North I will be playing for Toronto Raptors next year!!!! I’m Blessed for this Opportunity!…

    Starting to get a sinking 2010 kind of feeling. Just lock down Monroe and then go bargain hunting, Phil (on trade market if not FA).

  52. Just browsing around, I found a list of current team salaries. The Knicks now have the 4th LOWEST current commited 2015-16 salaries in the NBA. For some reason it was weird seeing that.

  53. So, now we can say that Danny Green probably left $16 million on the table to stay with San Antonio. I guess at some point this must seem like Monopoly money to these guys.

    Patrick Beverly is looking better and better with each passing minute.

  54. Carroll’s been a really good player for the last two years but I am not bummed about not paying him $60m for 4 years.

  55. Yeah, I’m much more bummed about Green than Carroll, esp. at 4/$60m. We just can’t afford him.

  56. Not only are the Mavs now being called frontrunners for Wes Matthews, but there’s this:

    Royce Young @royceyoung The Rockets, Pelicans and Knicks have interest in unrestricted free agent Kendrick Perkins, according to a source.

    Um…. I mean, Perk is supposedly a fabulous locker room guy, so if he comes for the minimum and Fish has no plans on playing him, by all means. Any role/money bigger than that? N-O.

  57. Maybe Afflalo will give the Knicks a “Carmelo Discount?” Yeah, probably not. :-)

  58. I wanted Green or Caroll….Scared and nervous over here…Do your thing Phil!

  59. i’m glad we missed out on green and carroll.. .i didn’t think it was realistic for them anyway…

  60. I’m not bummed at all. Wanted Green, but I also posted a couple of days ago that the Knicks might wait until next year to try to get an “elite” wing. They can’t get everything in one year. Try to get a couple of bigs this year. However, if they miss on all of the big name centers, the media will be on Phil.

  61. The Rockets, Pelicans and Knicks have interest in unrestricted free agent Kendrick Perkins, according to a source.

    If that source is not Kendrick Perkins I will eat my keyboard.

  62. If news breaks that Monroe signs somewhere else, it might be Carmelo’s trade ticket.

  63. Why has no one mentioned Jeremy Lin? Could be had on a reasonable contract. He probably wouldn’t come back to NYC and play with Melo, while getting screwed by Dolan.

    Oh well, seems his skillset would be valuable in the triangle.

  64. I guess the Knicks are not reading this board. Carroll, Green and Wes Matthews have been talked about as good gets for months. Did they even reach out to them? On the plus side I heard on the radio Ryan Rucco (who I thought was more astute) referencing Monta Ellis as a good potential acquisition., but nary a peep about the Knicks meeting with him.

  65. So any guesses which contract gets amniested first? I am thinking the owners are going to look back on some of these deals and will include them when it comes time to negotiate the new CBA…

  66. I’d like us to come out of free agency without having done something really stupid.

    This. We do not “need a win badly.” We should not “feel sick.” The only move that means anything here is Carroll to Toronto: a good player we’d like to have moving to another team. And what we learned is that he was more expensive than we could afford. Every other move is irrelevant – for example, if Green is going to leave money on the table to stay in San Antone, what does that mean to us? We never had a shot at him.

    Everyone likes to say how NY fans are smart and would have the patience for a rebuild. Well, this is what it’s like: not chasing FAs because “we need a win.” The win we need is not to overpay a guy who offers only marginal or less-than-marginal value over the life of the contract. If we come out of this with no big names but no cap-killing mistakes going forward, that is a win for this generally myopic franchise.

    I’m bummed about Green but understand – he wanted to stay with the Spurs. I’m bummed about Carroll but understand – we couldn’t really afford him. I’d like to get Monroe. I’d even be fine with West on a one-year deal. But let’s not throw money at players who kill our potential in the future because of a short-sighted sense we’re “losing.”

  67. @95 we’ll put. However, we all know there will be a media feeding frenzy if the Knicks don’t make any big moves. Headlines like:

    “Free agents: I don’t want to be a part of it, New York New York”

    Or

    “No action Jackson”

  68. I seriously doubt Phil gives even one fuck what the NY sports media thinks of him.

  69. @97 – Not that I care, but I can just envision now the commentary from the likes of Ian O’Connor and SAS on how the $60 Million Man PJ whiffed in free agency, thereby undermining his credibility as an executive and making it even harder for future free agents to see themselves going to a dysfunctional team like the Knicks not committed to winning….just saying how it would be portrayed…not actually the reality of it (not overpaying middling pseudo or former stars simply to make a splash, but rather upgrading incrementally should be the goal, really).

  70. How can we get in on the Patty Mills trade talk if Aldridge wants to sign with Spurs?

  71. going the slow and steady route is nice and all but no 2016 pick and having sky high cap years in the next two years makes that strategy suboptimal….

    lost in all this… the whole sixers strategy of hording cap space and renting it out is basically finished… they have their picks coming in the next year but they are on pretty much equal playing field after next season…

  72. I’d like to see us sign Monroe. I just think he’s a good value at the mini max and a trade asset in the future. If it’s for 2 years then fine that won’t kill us because of the short contract.

  73. If we whiff on Monroe, I think a front court pairing of Ed Davis and Alexis Ajinca would be decent and together less than Monroe.

  74. Phil may not give a flip about the media, and we don’t, but what scares, me, a little, is that Jim Dolan DOES care about what Isiah Thomas thinks and might be whispering in his ear if the Knicks fail to land a big name in free agency…

    Knicks quiet so far, but so are LA and Boston.

  75. it’s pretty much waiting on aldridge to decide… and then monroe will go soon thereafter..

  76. “So any guesses which contract gets amniested first? I am thinking the owners are going to look back on some of these deals and will include them when it comes time to negotiate the new CBA…”

    This just isn’t true. The cap is going to jump at unprecedented levels the next two years and the smart teams realize how valuable strong two way WINGS are. The Demarre, Middleton, Danny Green, Wes etc. deals are all perfectly fine

  77. I really hope we offered our contract to Monroe already. I’ll be pissed if we held off hoping to sign Aldridge or Jordan just to lose Monroe and then miss out on the other two who weren’t coming anyway. There is something to be said about going hard at your guy rather than trying to keep all your options open.

  78. You need to change your expectations on what a good salary is. The sticker $ amount doesn’t mean as much. The cap is going to be like 108 million in two years.

  79. The Knicks shouldn’t even want Aldridge… terrible fit with Melo. Just step up and get Monroe for the max. Pistons don’t even want him!

    I would also be ok with Harris at the max. Both those guys remain tradable.

  80. Amir Johnson would be an upgrade from Quincy Acy and a valid starting PF. That would be a nice under the radar move.

  81. if monroe doesnt sign i guess some permutation of the following:

    Joseph 8-10m
    Jae Crowder 5-8m
    Ajinca/Brandan Wright ?-?
    Amir Johnson/Ed Davis/Hansbrough
    John Jenkins

  82. I’ll be pissed if we held off hoping to sign Aldridge or Jordan just to lose Monroe and then miss out on the other two who weren’t coming anyway.

    Yeah, it’s not like those other guys are Shaq and LeBron. Monroe is probably the best option of the 3 for a team in NY’s position.

    going the slow and steady route is nice and all but no 2016 pick and having sky high cap years in the next two years makes that strategy suboptimal….

    I don’t think that Jackson made cap such a priority all season, just to low-ball folks and then horde it for next season. He’s going to spend all his money and make competitive offers.

    It feels kind of like 1996, when Grunfeld cleared a lot of cap room to play for major free agents (Shaq, Jordan, Reggie Miller), but they all had plans that didn’t involve NY, so he went and poached a flawed but promising young four year player from the Pistons to build around. Monroe will likely follow in the Houston mold– he’ll be with the team a long time, grow a lot, but never be a true franchise player. Not a bad player to have in the fold by any means, but not transcendent either.

  83. @95 –

    Everyone likes to say how NY fans are smart and would have the patience for a rebuild.

    OK. Not everyone. Take ME of the list of people that are patient for a rebuild. If, by “Rebuild” you mean 2-3 years to a championship, OK. But the way we’re going, we’re decades away from that!

    Why is it that a team like the Spurs don’t ever need to rebuild? Or the Bulls? Or even the Lakers? Because they always sustain a good core and develop a culture of winning that lures others to them. We need that core built and we don’t have next year’s draft pick so what are we talking about? 2020? It’s not about winning now. It’s about EVER winning.

    What I fear is happening is 2010 again. We’ll end up with another Stoudemire albatross that will keep us from ever leaving purgatory. Adding 3 “C” level free agents will make us a “C” team, which is better than our “F” for last year but worse because it locks us in. When I hear names like Kendrick Perkins being tossed around, I want to vomit. I want two really good, young players. A big and 3-and-D wing. $28m should get that but now some really good names are off the board.

    By the way, if it’s not obvious to everyone, the Knicks are a laughing stock in the league. Players are playing us. Our own media is undermining us. Our best player almost already destroyed next year’s chemistry by ignoring our draft picks.

    We need a “win” by getting our man to help lure other players. We don’t have many future draft picks. We don’t have culture. It’s all we have and I’ve been waiting patiently since 1973. I think that’s long enough!

  84. I was listening to ESPN radio today, and Ryan Ruocco said that it would be a “huge failure” for Jackson not to sign major free agents.

    So I changed my mind. I am a patient New Yorker.

    If Jackson’s early 2015 meant getting out from under Bargs, Hardaway, Larkin, Shumpert, JR, not to mention Felton/Chandler/Stoudemire, and we ended up with Monroe, Porzingis, Shved, Jerian Grant, with fliers out for Labeyrie, another Euro, and NO BAD LONG TERM CONTRACTS, I’m more than happy. Add in a Tobias Harris or whatever, and even better.

    Some of these guys are in their late 20’s. We are looking 2-3 years ahead. If the plan is wait on Monroe, and scoop up some Tobias Harris-like bargains later, I’m down with that.

  85. i think joseph and crowder will probably fall under the aminu market… which is something like 8mm …

  86. I know we’re long shots, but I’m assuming everyone would rather get Deandre than Greg Monroe?

  87. I personally prefer Jordan to Monroe. Either one would be nice, though.

  88. Milwaukee just cannot be taken seriously by anyone. It’s kind of hilarious.

  89. I’d actually prefer Monroe to Jordan. Either would be great but I think Jordan is a little overrated. Other than shot blocking his defense is good not great and we are not running a pick and roll offense so I think his offensive skills are a bad fit here especially since we have no ball dominant PG.

  90. Very little chatter other then Pacers interest on Monta Ellis.
    3 years ago I would pass… but showed restraint and maturity in Dallas.
    If he goes for Danny Green money , would prefer him over Afflalo any day.
    Would take some burden off of Melo on offense.
    Calderon and Ellis gets burned on D but what is our alternative at this point?

  91. I don’ get it, Go. The Spurs have been winners because they have done for decades exactly what we are doing now: avoiding big name FAs and building through the draft, D-league, and low-cost, high-value FA signings, within a set system.

    Since Phil got here, he has not been perfect, but the approach is very Spurs-like. Even the Melo signing is justifiable, in that Melo has market value at his current salary. He might just demand a trade if we don’t make a splash.

    Zinger, Jerian, Langston, Cle, Louis, Thanasis, and Guillermo are all interesting low-cost pieces. Calderón is hardly a cap-killer, considering what his peers are signing for.

  92. but what is our alternative at this point?

    “How poor are they that have not patience! What wound did ever heal but by degrees!”

  93. The way this is going we may have to offer Bargs 8m. What must Monroe be thinking now that all of these potential Knick teammates are being snapped up? Phil better start talking to GSW about Lee/Looney deal. At least Looney could be a trade chip and we wouldn’t be so dependent on free agency. We’ll find out if Phil is serious about preserving cap instead of taking bad contracts. Phil swingin’ for the fences on Zinger is looking more and more like the right action.

  94. Why is it that a team like the Spurs don’t ever need to rebuild? Or the Bulls? Or even the Lakers?

    The Spurs are just amazing, but even there, they’ve had Tim Duncan for practically two decades, ya know?

    The other two teams, though, both specifically have gone through rebuilding periods. The Lakers are currently in one such period!

  95. Yea for real chill a little. I didnt know about this site in 2010. Were you guys bugging out then too? If we dont get Monroe, we will probably get a poo poo platter of cheaper guys like Amir Johnson or maybe Toby Harris and that may work out. I am against Aflallo tho.

  96. I don’ get it, Go. The Spurs have been winners because they have done for decades exactly what we are doing now: avoiding big name FAs and building through the draft, D-league, and low-cost, high-value FA signings, within a set system.

    @129 – If we were following a plan, I wouldn’t be so upset. The Spurs are not avoid big name FAs. We don’t have draft picks next year. We aren’t getting low-cost high-value FAs. Our system is set until Jackson gets fired for not doing squat and then we have another “set” system because nobody runs the triangle other than us.

    How many players that the Knicks have drafted before this past draft are on the Knicks today? The answer: 1 – Cleanthony Early.

    If we start putting a plan in place and follow through, I would be OK. But we aren’t. We’re just the laughing stock of the league.

    @134 – The last time the Bulls were rebuilding was more than a decade ago. If you think that the Lakers are rebuilding, why are they all-in on LaMarcus Aldrich? We’ve been rebuilding since Ewing.

  97. Don’t think there’s a need to panic right now, exactly one free agent of note has signed with another team: DeMarre Carroll.

    Plenty of action to come, let’s just hope we sign the right players.

  98. Love staying in Cleveland for 5/110. Gilbert will be paying a HUGE tax bill.

  99. Phil better start talking to GSW about Lee/Looney deal. At least Looney could be a trade chip and we wouldn’t be so dependent on free agency. We’ll find out if Phil is serious about preserving cap instead of taking bad contracts. Phil swingin’ for the fences on Zinger is looking more and more like the right action.

    Jackson’s failures are turning into his greatest achievements. He’s actually backing into a complete and necessary rebuild. All Anthony needs to do is demand a trade, and the Knicks could be looking at a seriously good team four years from now. Get Looney, get Randle, get a pick next year. Eat a few expiring contracts. Win 30 games next year, 40 the next, and then make the big leap as the youngsters round into form.

    Or, commit long term to uninspiring vets. Either way is cool, I guess.

  100. Gilbert will be paying a HUGE tax bill.

    Hey, what’s the point of predatory lending if you can’t spend the profits on a sports team?

  101. “Get Looney”
    Looney has major health concerns — congenital hip and back problems that will someday require surgery — which is why he slipped to #30. I like the idea of taking on young guys, but I don’t think he’s the guy they should be targeting.

  102. Thanks guys…your posts are helping me to feel better…chill Rican…chill…
    Updated wish list:
    SG- Mathews, Harris, Afflalo (if there’s nothing else)
    PF/C- D. Jordan, Monroe, Ro. López, West (if there’s nothing else)

  103. It’ll be interesting to see what the Cavs do to clear up that frontcourt logjam. Mozgov is going to be very highly paid by them or by somebody else next summer, and I can’t see them keeping Varejao, Thompson, Mozgov and Love all satisfied with playing time anyway, and that doesn’t even mention any small lineups with Lebron at the 4.

  104. Hopefully they can get Monroe, the list of available players is dwindling quickly. Green and Carroll are gone and so is Aminu. I don’t believe the Knicks are a serious possibility for Jordan or Aldridge, the are using NY to drive up the price. Monroe, while not perfect, is young, can score, and will be a good fit and seems attainable. The price tags are quite a bit higher than has been discussed leading up to FA. Suddenly all of that 26 mil in cap space doesn’t look as huge as it once did. If the Knicks strike out on all of their targets that will be just brutal.

  105. Jerian GrantVerified account
    ?@JerianGrant

    Is this free agency or Oprah? You get a max, you get a max, you get a max, you get 50mil, you get 70mil! Yessir get paid fellas!

    I like this kid already!

  106. Whoa. Warriors and Draymond Green reportedly breaking up. Gimme!

    edit: Breaking off talks doesn’t mean they won’t match. breathe.

  107. green and carroll weren’t realistic anyway… if the knicks were targetting monroe they were in all likelihood not serious about either of them… i don’t even think matthews is realistic at this rate…

  108. GSW and Draymond Green have broken off talks.

    Draymond is restricted, so they don’t really need to have talks.

  109. I’d still put the chances Draymond Green leaves at 1 in 100. He’ll go find out what offers are out there, sign one of them, and GS will match. I assume he wants a max, and GS was unwilling to give it to him without him at least proving that it’s his value on the market. But there’s no conceivable reason for them to let him leave.

  110. I think we all know how this is gonna end up. Our starting lineup: Calderon (34yo), Afflalo (30yo), Melo (31yo), West (35yo), Kendrick Perkins (30yo). I like it: a seasoned gritty group of smart veterans ready to gel like that Celtics chip team. I hope Phil doesn’t do something stupid like sign Monroe/Cory Joseph and trade an unhappy Melo to Rockets for Jones, Capela, Montiej, and future 1st and then take Lee/Looney.

  111. What’s the over under on how many minutes age 36 Tyson plays on year 4 of this Suns contract…800?

  112. Phoenix is renouncing Brandan Wright, another useful big man.

    Where is Phoenix getting all this money from? Is Tyson playing for cheap? They gave $70 mil to Knight with Bledsoe already making that much at the same position. Now offering a max to Aldridge too? (And how is Sarver suddenly spending like P Diddy?)

  113. What I fear is happening is 2010 again.

    This is not 2010. There is no LeBron – or any other player who could even be charitably described as “transcendent” – floating around out there.

    The cream of this year’s free agent class consists of a handful of B-list talents looking for A-list contracts. Which will, of course, shortly become B-list level deals thanks to the anticipated rise in the salary cap.

    Given the circumstances, Monroe is probably the best case signing for the Knicks this year. A B-list talent who will be locked up for soon-to-be B-list $$$ throughout most of his prime. There figures to be room for another max player under the new cap. So Monroe is a nice piece who you can sign to a 4-5 year deal without crippling your future. Getting him would certainly be a step in the right direction. But losing out on him would hardly be the gut punch that losing out on LeBron in 2010 was to this franchise.

  114. Tyson is 4 yrs $52m but remember Knight deal isn’t fully on the cap until it’s done.

  115. And how is Sarver suddenly spending like P Diddy?

    Phoenix real estate rebound? lol

  116. The Spurs, Lakers, Heat, Bulls, etc. are consistently good because they have good ownership. It stems from the top down. That’s why I wrote this post. Knick fans assume that because we’re NY, we ultimately have an advantage. Unfortunately just because it works for the Yankees, doesn’t mean it works for the Knicks (or Jets). You know the expression “money goes to money”?

    Well the sports version is “winners go to winners.”

    The assumption was that you couldn’t sign the best free agents with David Lee, so we had to get Amar’e Stoudemire. We couldn’t sign the best free agents with just STAT, so we needed Carmelo Anthony. Carmelo can’t do it on his own, so Phil Jackson will rescue us.

    I feel like the Knicks are my car, and I’m stuck with the world’s most crooked mechanic. Everytime I think I’m ready to drive off, there’s another problem.

    And if I’m wrong, then I expect the Knicks to reel in the big fish. Which in this market, (and with our team) is DeAndre Jordan.

  117. Good idea/bad idea to sign Draymond to a max offer sheet? You’d tie up a lot of your cap space for three days (during which Monroe could go elsewhere), and the Warriors would probably still match. But if they don’t…

  118. Jesus, some of these deals.

    Can we really complain about Melo’s contract when he’s making $2 mil more than Paul Millsap?

    I’ll be ok if we nab Monroe and keep the rest of the space. I won’t expect it to make us good, but he’s a reasonably priced asset.

  119. The Suns have done like a Chris Jackson level persona change here. A year ago they were overflowing with picks and interesting assets and now they’re throwing $122 million at 33 year old Tyson and totally unexciting Brandon Knight.

  120. Monroe, Ed Davis, Cory Joseph, Wes Matthews, John Jenkins and some other guys I’m probably forgetting should be targets now

  121. I’m still in the “don’t do anything stupid” DRed camp. There will be plenty of solid, if unspectacular, players left after this initial spending orgy.

  122. The Spurs, Lakers, Heat, Bulls, etc. are consistently good because they have good ownership.

    I don’t mean to be pedantic but I think I can make a strong argument against Reinsdorf’s ownership. He has hired excellent GM’s, so full credit to him for that. But his frugality has cost that team dearly.

    And let’s not forget, even with all the assets they swindled from Isiah, they were on the road to nowhere until they jumped 13 teams in the lottery for D Rose.

    The Lakers ownership is not good any more, either. Just because they, too, won some ping pong balls and have a bunch of meetings scheduled, they’re not necessarily any closer to turning it around than we are.

  123. Mike, I agree 100%. What I want us to do is change all that by building a solid, young core now. We can’t be half-in, half-out. We’ve been that forever. But getting STAT eventually got us a 54 win season because other players wanted to play with him.

    We need a lure to reel in a big fish. If we get one of the bigs, I’ll be happy.

  124. Can we really complain about Melo’s contract when he’s making $2 mil more than Paul Millsap?

    Millsap is due $45 million less than Anthony over the length of their contracts, has played 10,000 fewer minutes, and has no injury history to speak of.

    some other guys I’m probably forgetting should be targets now

    Yes! Throw it all at some other guys I’m probably forgetting! (The obvious place to look for market inefficiencies).

  125. Yes to Monroe and Cory Joseph – better put a lot of zeroes in those offers – everybody is getting paid huge now

  126. OMG Kyle Singler re-signs with the Thunder. That’s the last straw, I’m done with the Knicks.

  127. Phil Jackson’s aura….and NOT A SINGLE deal so far??? It’s “Deja Vu” all over again… In 2010 Mike D’Antoni was going to bring all the A listers to NY….cuz they all wanted to play for him… lmao

    @168 +1

  128. @178 the reason I don’t remember them is because they are likely to be market inefficiencies

  129. @178 the reason I don’t remember them is because they are likely to be market inefficiencies

    (Kind of like when Jerry West gave Brian Cardinal $30,000,000 just because he was in the room when his boss told him he needed to spend some money)

  130. Which one is not like the others :
    1) 2010
    2) 2015
    3) Knicks sign the useful and talented FA that they targeted

  131. Amir Johnson to the Celtics: 2yrs /$24M

    Knicks reach out to Jeremy Lin, Robin Lopez and Kermit the Frog. They might get one of the 3.

  132. I’d love to get Monroe, but let’s be realistic. We are not an attractive destination.

    1) High income tax
    2) Awful team
    3) Melo is seen as a black hole (maybe okay for DJordan, not okay for Monroe)
    4) Little reason to believe in future up-side (compared to say, New Orleans)

    If we cannot offer more money, we have nothing to use as bait, unless these other guys are married to Lala’s sisters. That is why we will have a very hard time winning a max contract player who has other teams pursuing him. We will need to pay above market price for anyone to sign here this season, because we have no other leverage. And a max contract player doesn’t allow us to overpay.

    I may well be wrong and hope I am. But let’s just think about it from a free agent’s perspective. Why would Monroe WANT to come here? He can get the max elsewhere. I’ve given up on the appeal of NYC – it clearly hasn’t worked in the last decade.

  133. @181, 184,185

    “Nothing is fucked here, Dude. Come on, you’re being very un-Dude.”

  134. You guys are killing me lol.

    don’t mean to be pedantic but I think I can make a strong argument against Reinsdorf’s ownership. He has hired excellent GM’s, so full credit to him for that. But his frugality has cost that team dearly.

    No the Bulls ownership has been awful. They lucked into Jordan, they lucked into Drose, by barely missing the playoffs and winning the lottery.

  135. LOL!!!! @185 Kermit the Frog already tweeted that he’s staying with the Muppets for less money….

  136. What’s the over under on how many minutes age 36 Tyson plays on year 4 of this Suns contract…800?

    With that training staff and their special assortment of magical PEDs? I’d set the over/under at 1650.

  137. I’d love to get Monroe, but let’s be realistic. We are not an attractive destination.

    1) High income tax
    2) Awful team
    3) Melo is seen as a black hole (maybe okay for DJordan, not okay for Monroe)
    4) Little reason to believe in future up-side (compared to say, New Orleans)

    If we cannot offer more money, we have nothing to use as bait, unless these other guys are married to Lala’s sisters. That is why we will have a very hard time winning a max contract player who has other teams pursuing him. We will need to pay above market price for anyone to sign here this season, because we have no other leverage. And a max contract player doesn’t allow us to overpay.

    I may well be wrong and hope I am. But let’s just think about it from a free agent’s perspective. Why would Monroe WANT to come here? He can get the max elsewhere. I’ve given up on the appeal of NYC – it clearly hasn’t worked in the last decade.

    This has to be a joke right?

    1) LA is terrible too….plus there are only 43 games in the state
    2) There is no “team” yet
    3) LOL… Everyone in the NBA loves Melo. Fans seem to miss this.
    4) Yeah. Anthony Fucking Davis. great comparison.

  138. Whoa, Tyson to the Suns IS a surprise…

    The Suns’ medical staff should be able to maintain the performance of the T-1000 for decades to come.

  139. @189 – Damn! I had him pegged for 3-and-D. I hear he has a 45″ vertical leap!
    @188 – Better lucky than good. Knicks are neither.
    @186 – LaLa is leaving for the Spurs – along with her sisters.

  140. We are not an attractive destination.

    1) High income tax

    It’s never made sense to me why the NBA (or any league that institutes a salary cap in order to level the playing field) wouldn’t adjust for different levels of income tax.

    It’s like, they don’t want any competitive advantages for big market teams, but they’re totally cool allowing them in the states of Florida and Texas?

    Just make a tax-adjusted salary cap so a max offer in NY isn’t worth 12% less than a max offer in Miami.

  141. The grade is INC for almost everyone right now. Nearly all guys have just reupped with their current teams.

  142. texas and i think florida have higher than average sales and property taxes… the math for any free agent isn’t too clear when it’s all said and done…

    but toronto being in canada def has higher income taxes than everyone else…

  143. There have got to be some quality tax shelter situations for these guys, no? Who said you have to live in NY to collect paychecks from the Knicks…?

    IANAA

  144. I understand he has his flaws but its being reported Monta is getting 3 for 32 offer from Pacers.
    How are we not into this? He can at least be a dynamic first guard off the bench.
    Say no to Afflalo!

  145. The grade is INC for almost everyone right now. Nearly all guys have just reupped with their current teams.

    That’s kind of the idea behind the rules of the CBA. And why it’s so important to build through the draft and not free agency.

  146. Good thing about the Tyson deal is that it sets the market for 2nd tier (or aging) centers at $13MM per. That’s good for us going to get Lopez or Koufos.

  147. Jesus…. I’m glad I’m not in a foxhole with most of you guys…. what a bunch of little children…. wah….wah… wah… Phil hasn’t gotten me a FA yet 30 seconds into the process.

    The guy totally aced the draft while keeping his cards close to the vest…. so the morons in the media had no clue what he was up to and then converting an awful player into a mid 1st rounder….. genius.

    He’s going to try to sign the players he wants and if that fails, he isn’t going to overpay for 3rd level talent…. he’s going to rent the cap space to those who need to dump salary, all for the cost of an asset he sees as worthy.

    Chillax fellas….. lots of premature whining here.

  148. @198 & 199 – If you work in NY you pay NY taxes.

    If you work in NYC you pay NYC taxes. It doesn’t matter where you live. If you want to live in Louisiana (third lowest RE taxes) and play in Texas you can get away with paying close to no state taxes.

  149. I would be okay with taking it easy this offseason , however at this point, we do not have a draft pick. So I would say the goal is to add pieces that fit short and long term.

    The bigger question is aside from Durant , who IMO is a pipedream, who are we saving our money for next year?

  150. Property Taxes are not higher in FL. TX yes, FL nope. Also NY isn’t the draw that it used to be for a lot of people. Globalization and the Internet balanced out a lot of the advantages that a lot of bigger cities used to have as far as how and how much a player can get paid. So a person how much of a house and/or land you can get in TX for a million vs the same in NY and property tax doesn’t seem like a big hindrance. Especially when you’re talking on average (for the state, as it’s normally done at the local district/county level), a 0.5% difference in property tax (or 1.7% vs 1.2%) vs an income tax (state) difference of 0% vs 8.8%

  151. Sending Kobe and Byron Scott into the meeting is basically tanking. They’re like the Tsipras and Varoufakis of free agent diplomacy.

  152. It’s hard to chillax when all you read is rumors about Jeremy Lin, Lance Thomas, K. Perkins, Willie Green…. Stephon Marbury rumors in 5…4…3…..2…..

    Not whining…just killing some time til’ Uncle Phil works his magic…..

  153. yea cost of living is sig higher here than everywhere except maybe sf…

    it really all depends on where you want to live… you get to pocket more in other states but you might have more opportunities on the coasts .. plus living in dallas/hou/san antonio is definitely not like ny or la…no matter how much money you make…

    just sayin there’s a lot to consider than just having no state income tax…

  154. Marc Berman:

    #Knicks have reached out to their former SG Landry Fields. Interesting story for Landry as he’s practicing shooting lefty this offseason.

    Here you go. Are you ready for Landry Fields, Jeremy Lin, Robin Lopez and Andrea Bargnani?

  155. Okay, so at least there’s a master plan in place, but how the hell are we gonna track down Rautins?

  156. @212.
    Yes, it depends on the person, but my point really is that a lot of people do not see the allure of being in NY because there are so many other ways to get what you want now. LA, too to an extent, but they have an advantage of great weather and having multiple championships in every player’s lifetime.

    Those championships (for the Lakers at least) are a huge draw (granted that was under different leadership). It’s why LMA is probably going to be a Spur. It’s why Green, likely, took a discount.

  157. The Tsipras analogy got me LMFAO. Then I remembered Italy’s next after Greece :-(

  158. Jesus…. I’m glad I’m not in a foxhole with most of you guys…. what a bunch of little children…. wah….wah… wah… Phil hasn’t gotten me a FA yet 30 seconds into the process.

    If the Knicks big FA signing is Left Hand Landry, then do we have permission to complain? (just asking)

  159. Can we bring Jeffries out of retirement? He’s only like 33, right? Let’s do a reprise of the 2011-2012 Knicks with Cole/Perkins doing a homeless man’s approximation of T-1000, and Calderon as Bibby/Davis.

  160. If we were somehow able to land both LaMarcus and Robin, would that be interesting?

  161. I’m glad I’m not in a foxhole with any of you because it would mean that 1) we were at war and 2) since I’m 57 years old, losing badly.

  162. We’re all getting stir crazy, the comments are looking more and more like those on P&T.

  163. @223 – I was going to write the exact same words.
    Latest rumor: Knicks are signing Jordan and Curry. That’s Jerome and Eddie.

  164. I have to say, though, that Fields at the vet min doesn’t completely disgust me.

  165. Farfa, you at the vet’s minimum wouldn’t disgust me, so long as you never played in a game.

  166. @226 It is kind of funny that the Knicks’ big acquisitions of 2005 were Curry and James. Who knew that 10 years later those would be the names of the two best players in the NBA?

  167. @228 unfortunately, he’s coming here in a Grizzlies uniform. But Landry and Lin would be good consolation prizes.

  168. @233 yeah, I have a feeling that Dolan had a ride in the DeLorean, but forgot to write down the names and messed up the year.

  169. I seriously do like the idea of picking up, say, Monroe, and then just getting guys on one-year deals. Maybe they’ll come together and be good, and if they’re not, then they’ll just say “bye bye” and then restock next year. Monroe is young enough that he can be a part of the next good Knicks team, when he’ll be a gritty 36-year-old veteran.

    Wanna come back for the vet minimum and try to prove you’re an actual NBA player post-injury, Landry? Come on down!

  170. LMA waiting on decision until after meeting with Knicks tomorrow.

    Hopefully the Knicks will do a bang up job of convincing him to play elsewhere

  171. That’s a fascinating move for them. It’s like doubling down on size.

  172. Why? He’s had the same per-minute stats for 2 years in a row? When you have multiple career years in the primae ages of your career, I believe it’s called a peak, not a fluke.

    It’s not true that he had the same stats the last two years. 1.7 more TRB/36. 1.4 more pts/36. 1.3 more FTA/36. 50 points better FG%, though it was mostly wiped out on TS% because he stunk from the FT line even worse last season. Add all the somewhat marginal differences up and we’re talking about a PER jump from 18.2 to 21 and a WS/48 jump from .186 to .217… a 1.7 jump in total WS in the same number of games and roughly the same minutes. What I am saying is that I would not expect the 21 and .217 going forward. Even the 18 and .186 are above his career numbers. Primes aren’t straight-line things, usually, where a guy has a nice clean career arc.

    That’s without even considering the other factors… like those two “prime” years happening to coincide with Doc Rivers’ time in LA. Or working with Chris Paul and Blake Griffin the past several years.

    DeAndre Jordan may be the best option available to the Knicks. I haven’t really thought about it enough to have an opinion either way. I just don’t expect the 2014-15 All-NBA version of DeAndre Jordan to show up for the Knicks. It’s possible that he does or even that a change in scenery brings his career to new heights. I just think the chances are better that he falls off from a career-to-date year than that he stays the same or improves. I’d say that about just about any player, and there are certain factors that I think make it more true for Jordan.

  173. He’d be better than Bargnani.

    I’ll say this much for Bargnani, he probably is at least better than the late Lorenzen Wright. :)

  174. If we do end up with Monroe, Koufos would fit well and presumably would be cheaper than Lopez.

  175. It’s like the first thing Memphis does before adding a guy is ensure that he can’t shoot.

  176. Wow

    Looks like Millsap declined the Magic offer and will stay with the Hawks for less money!

  177. The Carroll loss hurts them a lot, but bringing back Millsap and adding Splitter is also pretty darn nice for Atlanta. And they’ll still have the room exception to work with!

  178. The assumption was that you couldn’t sign the best free agents with David Lee, so we had to get Amar’e Stoudemire. We couldn’t sign the best free agents with just STAT, so we needed Carmelo Anthony. Carmelo can’t do it on his own, so Phil Jackson will rescue us.

    I don’t think that’s accurate. I don’t think the goal of those moves was to sign better free agents. I think the goals was to have a better team. By the time the Knicks had both Stat and Melo on the payroll… what other FA were they going to sign?

    I think you’re absolutely right that Dolan is totally incompetent as an owner and that many of the Knicks issues the past ~15 years stem from his incompetence. (I mean, look no further than the leash he gave Isaiah Thomas…). It’s why I no longer follow the Knicks, in fact. I just don’t think their main goal was to sign free agents. I think it was to win games. Amare was a big-time free agent they signed. Melo was traded for as a big-time star in lieu of signing a free agent (or drafting in the first round for several years or keeping the young players they traded for him).

  179. All I want is a competitive team that is moving in the right direction next year. Not particularly worried that we haven’t signed anybody yet.

    Not reaching to overpay guys would contribute to the goal of improving and building a foundation for the future. This is a good offseason to have money to spend because it’s going to be hard to overpay guys with the cap situation changing. Basically every team in the league will have cap room next year, so good luck signing anybody in that environment if you’re coming off a 16-win season again.

    I’m fine with overpaying a couple of vets to fill out the roster / provide ‘veteran leadership’ etc if that’s what it comes down to (West, Afflalo) as long as we also add some young blood. That’s my main concern, a lack of focus on guys with upside. Two first round picks is nice but I’d like more guys heading up on their career arcs.

  180. Pierce joining the Clippers is sort of intriguing. If he (mostly)fights off age for another year, having another good shooter on the wing makes that offense absolutely terrifying assuming Deandre comes back. If Lance can figure his shit out at all they might have just about enough on the wing to take the next step.

  181. If no Monroe, there’s always Kurt Thomas, right? But seriously, an at-least-decent big man aquisition wouldn’t hurt.

  182. Shump staying in Cleveland for 4yr-40m. Shump at 10m per year, seriously?? Afflalo is Michael Jordan offensively compared to Shump.

  183. Wow. $10M for Shump. That’s beyond insane (he’s getting $10M and Danny Green gets $11) but you can understand the Cavs situation. Lebron gets what Lebron wants I guess.

    Also Knicks reportedly interested in Monta. DO NOT WANT.

  184. 11 million gets you Danny Green if you’re the Spurs and you already have Danny Green, a great core, and a terrific coach that helped develop him into the player he is today. It’s not like 11 is market value for the kid.

  185. I’d take Monta. A second scoring option is always a good thing, especially on the outside….wcs he’s an expensive bench bomb-threat.

  186. Ok so no one has mentioned this but, just want to point out that the Knicks have not met with Jordan or Aldridge. Either of those guys is going to cost $20 million. If you sign Anyone for more than $8-10 today (I don’t know the exact number), then why even go to the meetings at all?

    I’m not saying this is necessarily a good thing, because we’re probably not going to get either of them, but why is it at all surprising that we haven’t signed anyone before the meetings??? I truly do not understand the collective panic.

  187. $10M for Shump. That’s beyond insane

    They’re already way over the cap, right? So if they don’t resign their own keys, it’s not like they can go out and get high quality replacements.

    I know that price tag seems crazy but in two years, it’s going to seem like a perfectly reasonable salary. For one, I think Shump still has room to improve, but more critically, you have to understand how bonkers salaries are going to get as the cap goes up…

  188. I will go on the record right now and say that the Cavs will not win more than 1 title with this team. Several of their key players have had very serious injuries: Shump (ACL) , Kyrie (ACL) , Love (Shoulder) , Varejao (Achilles). I have a hard time believing that they don’t break down either physically or mentally aver the long grind of an NBA season, and they don’t have any cap room even with the new cap, or draft picks. LeBron is starting to show signs of age as well. I kinda hope they win one for the God-forsaken city of Cleveland, but they are a weird mix of players.

  189. “Looks like Millsap declined the Magic offer and will stay with the Hawks for less money!”
    I wouldn’t say that he necessarily took less money. He did what everyone thought a lot of guys would do — he took the same amount per year, but for three years instead of four. Maybe he thinks that, with the cap exploding, he will still be worth $20 million plus as a 33 year old when this contract expires.

  190. That’s my main concern, a lack of focus on guys with upside.

    Who are they focusing on, though? It’s pretty hard to say. The big name we’ve heard most prominently is Greg Monroe… he’ll be 25 next season. I don’t know how much upside he has, but he’s a good bet to remain a good player for the length of his next contract. (By the time a guy hits free agency, upside can also be synonymous with underachieving…)

    Guys like Kendrick Perkins and Willie Green are likely just low-cost filler options to put cheap bodies on the bench. And, while I have no idea, they’re at the point in their careers where their agents might be leaking any contact with any team to try to increase their value. The Knicks may just be reaching out to see if they’ll sign for the min, to have a plan in place after their big signing(s).

    Shump staying in Cleveland for 4yr-40m. Shump at 10m per year, seriously?? Afflalo is Michael Jordan offensively compared to Shump.

    Does seem like a lot, but at the same time Shump isn’t really being paid for his scoring prowess. He’s got some ball skills and defensive skills that are getting him paid. He’ll also be 25 next season, so he may be getting better going forward while Afflalo may be getting worse.

  191. Shump was a restricted FA, the Cavs couldve let him get a contract in the open market and see what is value truly was.

    I loved Shump when he was here but lets be honest, he is what he is offensively which is an average spot-up 3pt shooter while being awful at every other aspect on offense. His career TS% is 49% and there have been no signs of improvement in his stats offensively the past couple of seasons. It seems like his excellent 3pt shooting in his 45 game 12-13 season was a fluke.

  192. I don’t think it’s realistic for any team from the East to expect to win a championship in the next 3-5 years.

  193. I’m not sure there’s any hope Shump can improve offensively. Every time he was asked to expand his game it turned out really poorly.

    He can’t finish and is a mediocre shooter. A plus player, yes, but I have to think that there are far cheaper options to replicate his production,

  194. The Cavs should most definitely expect to win a championship (if not multiple championships) in the next 3-5 years.

  195. There is almost nothing left for the Knicks to try and sign except Monroe and if the Knicks wait too long the Lakers or Suns will steal him too. It might be time for Phil to start looking for the displaced players that are losing their minutes because of new players coming in. Someone like a Kosta Koufos, who lost his job to Brandon Wright.

  196. I will go on the record right now and say that the Cavs will not win more than 1 title with this team. Several of their key players have had very serious injuries: Shump (ACL) , Kyrie (ACL) , Love (Shoulder) , Varejao (Achilles). I have a hard time believing that they don’t break down either physically or mentally aver the long grind of an NBA season, and they don’t have any cap room even with the new cap, or draft picks. LeBron is starting to show signs of age as well. I kinda hope they win one for the God-forsaken city of Cleveland, but they are a weird mix of players.

    How many teams are you projecting to win multiple championships with their current rosters? That’s a pretty high bar.

    I sort of see the injuries in the opposite way. They almost won it all despite being totally devastated by injuries. 2 of their top 3 guys were hurt.

    I can see someone like Varejao is likely to get hurt: he’ll be 33 and has passed 31 Gs 1 of the past 5 seasons. I don’t know if injuries are inevitable for the other guys you listed. And while LeBron may not be the player he was going forward, he’s still pretty insanely amazing.

  197. San Antonio is going to be solidly in the mix for a ring next year, especially after adding Aldridge (not official but all but done). Let’s face it the West is packed and no matter who wins in the East they will probably get pounded by the West team, at least for the next few years

  198. I loved Shump when he was here but lets be honest, he is what he is offensively which is an average spot-up 3pt shooter while being awful at every other aspect on offense.

    He’s not an awful ball-handler or passer. A little TO prone, but he’s a guy who can play D while also giving you some combo-guard skills and hit 3s.

    A plus player, yes, but I have to think that there are far cheaper options to replicate his production,

    Offense is half the game and I don’t think you’re getting proven “plus” players at 25 years old for less than $10 mill per these days.

  199. The way I see it is because the Cavs are a virtual lock to make the NBA Finals multiple times in the next 3-5 years. They will easily be favored to win the East every year for the next 3-5 years. You cant say that for any team in the West because its a dogfight out there just to make the NBA Finals every year.

    Give the Cavs say 3 chances in the NBA Finals in the next 5 years and I would think they win at least one of them.

  200. The Cavs should be in the finals for the next 4 or 5 seasons because East.

    It’s reasonable to assume that Lebron will win at least one of these for them.

  201. Let’s face it the West is packed and no matter who wins in the East they will probably get pounded by the West team, at least for the next few years

    I don’t think that’s true. A team from the EC took GS to 6 games down two of their three best players.

    The West is better overall, but that doesn’t mean one EC team can’t beat one WC team.

  202. But it is still Cleveland and if any city could screw this Championship thing up, it would be Cleveland.

  203. I think what the Cavs did in the Finals was a bit of fool’s gold, but there might be an argument that they were pretty much a shell of themselves after getting through that gauntlet.

  204. If the Knicks don’t sign anybody or only sign one guy, I’d like to see them flip Calderon for D-Will or Derozan. They both have a year or two left on their deals which makes them low-risk high reward trades. Maintain your flexibility and show people you’ll try to be competitive this year. If we end up with D-Will (whose game is better suited for the triangle at this point), Melo, and Monroe, I think we could get an 8 seed in the East depending on how we fill in the roster around them. At this point, something like Gerald Green and Greg Monroe would be a win. I just want us to either sign Monroe or strike out and trade Melo for assets. If we can’t get an impact player, then we need to commit 100% to the long term and scrap the early playoff exit we’re hoping for.

  205. The Cavs with Love, Mozgov, Irving, and LeBron have a chance at winning a championship until LeBron is in decline. It’s that simple. They will be the team to beat until the end of the decade.

  206. I think what the Cavs did in the Finals was a bit of fool’s gold, but there might be an argument that they were pretty much a shell of themselves after getting through that gauntlet.

    How good would the Warriors have done in that series without Klay Thompson and Draymond Green?

    You’re looking at a series in which two of the Cavs best three players hardly played. You cannot say much about how their full team would have done in that series, because they didn’t have anything resembling their full team.

    Still, with the team they had… the Cavs took Game 1 to overtime and won the next two games. They weren’t that far from a 3-0 lead on the Warriors. If a hobbled Cavs team could test the Warriors, why can’t a full-strength EC team beat a WC team in the next few years?

  207. I think Langston Galloway, for example, could have a very similar impact to Iman Shumpert next season.

    You can find guys who are above average on one side of the ball, and well below on the other, for less than eight figures.

    I don’t think Shumpert’s defense is transcendently good.

    And to shoot well below league average with his shot distribution means he’s a pretty bad offensive player, unfortunately.

  208. Well, for one thing, it’s unusual for a very young, very inexperienced team to be successful in the Finals. Golden State should get better, and their poor play was probably more about their inexperience than their opponent. After they were down 2-1, including an overtime loss, they pretty much won going away.

    For another thing, it could be argued that the Spurs, Clippers, Grizzlies and healthy Thunder would all have given Cleveland fits.

    The larger point I was trying to make is that the Cavs on paper<<<the Cavs that will play in the finals. It is likely that at least two of their key pieces will be hobbled or gone by the finals, making it the LBJ show again.

    There's also the Love conundrum. Who are they better with on the court, Love or Thompson?

    And there's the PG conundrum: who backs up Irving? Delly?

    What do they do about JR?

    Lots of ??? for the Cavs going forward.

  209. I think Langston Galloway, for example, could have a very similar impact to Iman Shumpert next season.

    You seem to think a lot of things that very few other people think…

    Langston Galloway is 3 inches shorter than Shumpert, only one year younger, he lacks lateral quickness and is just not the athlete that Shumpert is, and is a worse offensive player. I don’t think that there’s much of a comparison at all.

  210. If the Knicks had given 10 million to Shump I would have thought PJax was huffing paint in his office, but it makes sense for the Cavs. Shump is an okay player who fills a role for them nicely when they’re all healthy, and who they might not be able to replace since they are capped out in a huge way.

  211. I only want Bargs back if Stromile Swift isn’t available.

    I can’t believe Danny Green signed for that amount of money. That is insane.

  212. Well, for one thing, it’s unusual for a very young, very inexperienced team …

    Is GS “very young?” Curry was 26… that’s pretty much prime years for a PG. Iggy and Bogut were 30+. They’re not an old team, but I think you’re largely creating a narrative to suite your pre-conceived notions. The Warriors beat a team without two of its three best players. How would the Warriors have done against a full-strength Cavs team down two of their best players?

    For another thing, it could be argued that the Spurs, … and healthy Thunder would all have given Cleveland fits.

    It can be argued that any team would give any other team fits. The fact is that one team from the West can make the finals and one team from the East. (Also, I’m not sure what you are thinking talking about a healthy Thunder team and basically ignoring the Cavs injuries… you’re creating hypotheticals and narratives when we saw in reality that a short-handed Cavs team was competitive in the Finals.)

    The larger point I was trying to make is that the Cavs on paper<<<the Cavs that will play in the finals. It is likely that at least two of their key pieces will be hobbled or gone by the finals, making it the LBJ show again.

    I think that’s total BS. You’re taking one time injuries and creating a trend that isn’t there.

    There’s also the Love conundrum. … Love or Thompson?

    There are 48 minutes in a game. The point is that they’re a better team with both.

    And there’s the PG conundrum: who backs up Irving?

    Is back-up PG a conundrum? Is there a single team in the NBA that is both as strong at the top of the roster as the Cavs and that has 10 good players evenly spaced across the 5 positions.

    Lots of ??? for the Cavs going forward.

    Same for every single team when you nitpick every issue to death.

  213. If the Knicks had given 10 million to Shump I would have thought PJax was huffing paint in his office, but it makes sense for the Cavs. Shump is an okay player who fills a role for them nicely when they’re all healthy, and who they might not be able to replace since they are capped out in a huge way.

    Agreed. A marginal boost is worth more to the Cavs than the Knicks right now.

  214. Galloway had a higher WS/48 than Shumpert in a Knicks uniform last year. They rebounded and shot at the same level, while Galloway was far less turnover prone.

    Shumpert is the superior physical specimen, yes, but Galloway was already a better offensive player in his rookie season than Shumpert was in his 4th year.

    Galloway’s DPM was higher than Shumpert’s. Not that Galloway is as good as Shumpert defensively, but he’s solid.

    When you consider that Galloway had that kind of a rookie season as one of the team’s primary shot creators, I think it’s fair to say that he has at least a decent chance of producing comparably to Shumpert next year.

  215. Galloway had a higher WS/48 than Shumpert in a Knicks uniform last year. They rebounded and shot at the same level, while Galloway was far less turnover prone.

    This is twisting small sample stats to suite your argument taken to a crazy level. You’re twisting the stats that you have by comparing only Shumpert’s partial season when we have so much more data for him and you’re almost totally ignoring defense going with box score stats.

    Shumpert is the superior physical specimen, yes, but Galloway was already a better offensive player in his rookie season than Shumpert was in his 4th year.

    Again, offense is half the game and Galloway is not clearly better than Shumpert. He’s a better PG than Shumpert, but not really much of a PG at all without the size or any other skill to play off the ball.

    When you consider that Galloway had that kind of a rookie season as one of the team’s primary shot creators, I think it’s fair to say that he has at least a decent chance of producing comparably to Shumpert next year.

    When you consider that he was a 23 year old rookie playing for a team that was actively trying to tank… I don’t think there is a decent chance he’s as productive as Shumpert. The kind of rookie season that he had was awful.

  216. Never been a Shump guy and that feels like a serious overpay to me. But if Lebron likes him that’s what matters I guess.

    Not a huge sample size for Galloway but I am cautiously optimistic about him being a nice piece going forward. The defensive numbers were highly highly intriguing….

  217. It can be argued that any team would give any other team fits.

    Statements like these (and the subsequent arguments) is why the Ted Nelson Word Count Wall was created :)

  218. @bkravitz: West said the rumors about him going to the Knicks are ridiculous; he wants to be with a contender; the Knicks don’t qualify.

    And Woj says Milwaukee and Milwaukee have made “significant inroads” in recruiting Greg Monroe.

  219. How am I twisting stats, lol?

    Statistically, Shumpert’s season with the Knicks last year wasn’t any different than his previous three.

    Find me a metric that shows Shumpert to be an elite defender. It doesn’t show up in any adjusted +/- or on Synergy.

    Galloway has been a solid spot-up shooter at the NBADL and in college. He was not great last year, but managed to have basically the same ftr and 2 pt % as Shumpert last year.

    Basically you’re saying there’s no chance that Galloway can be as productive as Shumpert next year because one season of numbers is an invalid sample, which is silly.

  220. Galloway has basically the same stats that Shumpert career’s.

    He’s younger and cost us 1/12 of Shumpert’s salary.

    For me that’s enough for at least call it a better cost-benefit.

  221. It is starting to look like the Knicks are not going to even get Greg Monroe to sign here. He is being courted hard by Portland and JKidd is doing his best to get him to the Bucks. What’s left for the Knicks? I hope that Phil has a plan that doesn’t involve making the Knicks suck so bad that Melo demands a trade.

  222. Never been a Shump guy and that feels like a serious overpay to me. But if Lebron likes him that’s what matters I guess.

    I think it has more to do with his defense and the market perversions of the cap than LeBron… but who knows?

    Statements like these (and the subsequent arguments) is why the Ted Nelson Word Count Wall was created :)

    Very true…

    How am I twisting stats, lol?

    You are using an artificially small sample that happens to be the worst offensive performance you’ll find on Shump’s stat page since his rookie season, you are arbitrarily saying one guy is better than another without explaining why, you’re using stats out of a positional context…

    You’re also putting words like “elite” and “no chance” into my mouth.

    Basically you’re saying there’s no chance that Galloway can be as productive as Shumpert next year because one season of numbers is an invalid sample, which is silly.

    That is not at all what I’m saying. I’m saying that Galloway isn’t as good as Shumpert because he’s a 6’2″ guard who isn’t a playmaker or a scorer at the NBA level, as is maybe an average defender with quick hands and hussle. Shumpert has real NBA skills. He can guard multiple positions, as many as 3… Galloway can guard one. He’s got some ball skills to go along with his 3-and-D profile. He can be a useful role player. Galloway is a D-league guy that the Knicks added and played in part to tank. Maybe he can find himself an NBA role and maybe things play out in the future in such a way that he’s better than Shumpert (were Shumpert to suffer a career altering injury or mail it in now that he’s been paid). There’s not much reason to expect Galloway to be better than Shumpert going forward, though. I think it was an unreasonable comparison.

  223. Re: Aldridge. If demare Carroll signs for 15 mill id take him for 20 easy. Redundancies with Melo and all.

  224. Milwaukee’s recruiting him twice? Nice tactic.

    D’oh. I meant Milwaukee and Portland.

    And if we can’t even get Monroe… obviously, he’s not a savior, but this team needs upgrades over last year, and he’s one of the few FA’s left who would be a significant upgrade.

  225. Galloway has basically the same stats that Shumpert career’s.

    Which stats? That’s a pretty big generalization.

    He’s younger

    1.5 years younger…

  226. Galloway is not now clearly better than Shump on offense or defense. But he shot well in college, and he shot well in the D-league, and he shot okay as a rookie. There’s a decent chance he’ll turn into a good shooter in the pros, which is more than we can say for Shump. Plus he’s a lot cheaper than 10 million dollars.

  227. If the Knicks whiff on Monroe, that is really going to make Phil’s “clear salary cap space at all costs” strategy look pretty bad. At that point it’s time to start taking on bad contracts, renting the salary cap space in exchange for assets and convince Melo to waive the ol’ no trade clause.

  228. “Is GS “very young?” Curry was 26… that’s pretty much prime years for a PG. Iggy and Bogut were 30+. They’re not an old team, but I think you’re largely creating a narrative to suite your pre-conceived notions.”

    The four players on GS with the most minutes in the playoffs were Curry (26), Green (24), Thompson (24) and Barnes (22) Non of them had ever won even a second round series. Neither did Iguodala. In fact, the only player on the team that ever got out of the second round was Barbosa, who wasn’t much of a factor. Oh, and they had a rookie coach, who never coached before at any level. If that doesn’t qualify for inexperienced relative to other championship teams, I don’t know what does. Feel free to find me another team who won a championship with similar inexperience. I wish you’d do some research before making a-hole statements like “you’re creating a narrative to suite your pre-conceived notions.”

    “I think that’s total BS. You’re taking one time injuries and creating a trend that isn’t there.”

    Again, your tone sucks. Unnecesarily argumentative.

    We disagree as to why were the Cavs unhealthy. Were their injuries freakish or are the injured players frail? We’ll see. I’m betting on those guys being frail. Kyrie Irving had a second serious knee injury. For a player that relies on lateral quickness, that’s not good. For reference, see Derrick Rose. Kevin Love has missed lots of games in his career, with a knee injury, shoulder injury and weird knuckle injury (his hand broke doing knuckle push-ups?). Neither Love nor Irving survived the long playoff grind in a cakewalk through the East. Shump has had well documented shoulder and knee problems, and was favoring his shoulder in the Finals. Maybe the injuries are one shot deals, maybe not. I’m skeptical, you’re not. Let’s leave it at that.

  229. I’m not particularly high on Shump… but I think comparing Langston Galloway to him because they’re equally terrible NBA scorers is the height of homerism.

    This one:

    That’s what younger means right?

    Again, which stats? Does 1.5 years in age over, say, 22 years of age make any difference in two NBA players’ expectations going forward?

    he shot okay as a rookie. There’s a decent chance he’ll turn into a good shooter in the pros, which is more than we can say for Shump. Plus he’s a lot cheaper than 10 million dollars.

    Galloway shot ok from 3, but was a horribly inefficient scorer.

    Shumpert is not being paid for his shooting ability, but he’s got a solid outside shot to go with the skills he is being paid for. Galloway is a lot cheaper than $10 million because he’s a borderline NBA player with no clear role.

    The Cavs can still sign all the Langston Galloway’s that they can fit on their roster going forward. They’re going to be limited in how many guys in all of the rungs above that they can sign for the next several years, though. All else equal, I can see saying Galloway is a better deal than Shump. All else isn’t equal for the Cavs, though.

  230. The four players on GS with the most minutes in the playoffs were Curry (26), Green (24), Thompson (24) and Barnes (22) Non of them had ever won even a second round series. Neither did Iguodala. In fact, the only player on the team that ever got out of the second round was Barbosa, who wasn’t much of a factor. Oh, and they had a rookie coach, who never coached before at any level. If that doesn’t qualify for inexperienced relative to other championship teams, I don’t know what does.

    I would guess that a ton of first time NBA championship teams were in similar situations.

    Almost all of what you said about the Warriors applies to the Cavs outside of LeBron, as well… so it doesn’t do much to prove your point that they struggled AGAINST THE CAVS because of inexperience. They weren’t playing every other champion in NBA history. They were playing the Cavs.

    “We disagree as to why were the Cavs unhealthy. Were their injuries freakish or are the injured players frail?”

    Again… how many other NBA teams can you say these kinds of things about? Almost all of them.

    There is not a trend where these guys get hurt every year, and you are extrapolating based on a playoff sample of one.

    Whether the Cavs have an above average injury prone roster or not, I think they clearly had an inordinate amount of bad injury luck while the Warriors had an inordinate amount of good injury luck on the season (many of their players matched their recent highs). Could it be a sustainable thing? (Better training, say?) Sure. Is it likely? I don’t know.

    Again, your tone sucks. Unnecesarily argumentative.

    Hardly. I do think it’s BS and I do think you’ve taken isolated injuries and a one playoff sample to create a trend that isn’t there.

  231. I mean if you put stock in defensive tracking numbers Galloway’s are infinitely better than either of Shumpert’s last two seasons he also has the better defensive +/- numbers and in fact his tracking stats are some of the best in the league. Take that for what you will. Galloway can defend 1-2 positions and is actually very good at it despite his lack of “size” and “athleticism” and he defends well in space. shumpert can defend 3 positions well on-ball but gets caught on every screen and gambles on every possession which actually makes him only a decent defender at best.

    I’d rather take a solid defender like Galloway who can move well in space and not run into screens than a hyperactive on ball defender who makes it looks like hes doing more than he actually is. Nevermind the fact that galloway likely has a better offensive repertoire which will be reflected when he’s not stat padding on the worst knicks team of all time.

  232. So, if Monroe does go to Portland or Milwaukee, what then? Take a flyer on signing Draymond Green to a max offer sheet and 1. pray that it is not matched (highly unlikely), and 2. see if Lopez or Koufous can be signed with the remaining $? Or, go for the possibly more likely to get Tobias Harris and a 2nd tier C?

    Whatever, I’d think that Phil will get a deal done with someone tomorrow. Could be a run on all the C’s waiting for Aldridge to make up his mind.

    Those of you sad tonight, look on the bright side. At least Aldridge wants to meet with the Knicks before making up his mind. How must Lakers fans feel tonight?
    :-)

  233. Shumpert may be “better” right now (idk if that’s even the case) but if you asked me to pick which one to sign if they’re contract values were the same I’d pick galloway

  234. I’m not sure how you compare Shumpert and Galloway. Shumpert is a starter on an NBA finals team. Galloway is a bench player on the worst team ever. They are as far apart in value as their 2015 salaries say they are. However…

    I would rather have Galloway at his price than Shumpert at his.

    Also. Cross David West off the list:
    “West said the rumors about him going to the Knicks are ridiculous; he wants to be with a contender; the Knicks don’t qualify.”

    You’ll see. Bargnani’s coming back.

  235. There’s also a common misconception that age is the only thing correlated to development but it’s actually more a combination of age and NBA experience. Galloway has more potential to develop even though he’s of a similar age to shumpert because he’s had less nba experience and training, which is actually quite important.

  236. “I would guess that a ton of first time NBA championship teams were in similar situations.”

    A ton? Really?? Coming from a guy who just accused me of creating a narrative based on my own preconceived notions.

  237. Z-man,

    Listen, it’s possible that the Cavs are especially injury prone. I don’t think that’s at all clear, though. I also think you’re largely going on small samples to argue that they are and treating degrees of probability as all or nothing certainty.

    Regardless of how injury prone a team is or isn’t, they can still have particularly good or bad injury luck. All of the Warriors bigger injury risks like Iggy and Bogut and Livingston and Lee (even Steph Curry had a serious ankle injury before… which is about all you’re using as evidence for some Cavs) all seemed to be particularly healthy for the season and playoff run. Most of the Cavs injury risks got hurt, which isn’t something that’s happened to them every year (you’re talking about college for Irving … Love has been at 75 games each of the last two seasons).

    You’re presenting it as an inevitability that the Cavs will have major injury issues every season. I don’t think that’s reasonable. Their risk may be higher than some other teams, but it’s a spectrum rather than an all-or-nothing thing. (And without providing some intel on Irving’s injury other than that it’s a knee injury, it doesn’t seem reasonable to compare him to Rose…)

  238. By that I mean if guys of demare carrolls caliber are getting 15…

    Demarre is typically undervalued and if you have to pay a extra 2 million a year to secure him so be it. In 2 years when the cap is 105+mil that will be nothing. Also what else are the raptors going to do? Sorry but people hating on some of these deals are super silly. Dude can guard Lebron and play the 4 in legit small ball lineups.

  239. As of right now coming off a slightly promising rookie season Galloway has much more potential to improve than Shumpert. Shumpert has been the same inefficient player on two teams in multiple offensive systems and even playing next to the greatest player in the world who usually helps his teammates be more efficient. Galloway was an inefficient rookie playing on a team with no offensive system to speak of with marginal at best talent around him. Even as a rookie in a horrible situation his efficiency was comparable to Shumpert’s over his career and last year next to LeBron.

    As defenders Shumpert has more upside but can be inconsistent and gamble too much. Galloway, so far, has rated extremely well, and seems to have the tools to be a plus defender in the NBA. Shumpert is bigger and more athletic but hasn’t really used that to his advantage and while Shumpert can guard three positions, Galloway can guard two.

  240. I’d rather take a solid defender like Galloway who can move well in space and not run into screens than a hyperactive on ball defender who makes it looks like hes doing more than he actually is.

    I don’t think that’s an accurate description of the two.

    Shumpert may be “better” right now (idk if that’s even the case) but if you asked me to pick which one to sign if they’re contract values were the same I’d pick galloway

    Based on what?

    There’s also a common misconception that age is the only thing correlated to development but it’s actually more a combination of age and NBA experience.

    Most borderline NBA players never turn into NBA players no matter how much development time they get, and I would argue that Galloway is a borderline NBA player. I don’t think Shumpert is that great, but I would argue he’s solidly an NBA player.

  241. Also, what you all keep ignoring is that Langston was a better scorer than Shumpert was in college. Galloway’s worst TS% would have been Shumpert’s best. Doesn’t mean he’s going to develop in the pros, but he’s got a decent shot. Galloway is a guy who can defend 2 guard positions well, and if he can develop into a league average scoring guard, well-that’s a good player.

  242. And whats all this stupid Shump talk about? The Cavs can’t replace him with anyone else so who cares if they throw 10 mil a year at him? It’s not even that bad, he’s a great complimentary piece next to Lebron on a healthy squad. Sure they could’ve let the market dictate his price since he’s a RFA but the Cavs are in full YOLO mode and GM BRON gets what GM BRON wants.

    And you can spout this drpm +/- but Shump IS A + defender.

  243. Even as a rookie in a horrible situation his efficiency was comparable to Shumpert’s over his career and last year next to LeBron.

    I don’t think scoring efficiency is nearly as dependent on teammates as you’re making it out to be, and scoring efficiency is also only one part of the game.

    while Shumpert can guard three positions, Galloway can guard two.

    Galloway can guard two positions on the 3rd worse defensive team in the NBA. I don’t think he’s a credible threat on a good 2 on a team that wants to compete… not when he’s not bringing much else to the table.

  244. I would argue that Galloway is a borderline NBA player. I don’t think Shumpert is that great, but I would argue he’s solidly an NBA player.

    Since they are statistically very similar, that’s a strange argument to make.

  245. shump probably deserved something like the aminu deal… 10mm was def an overpay but the cavs had no choice…

  246. I don’t think scoring efficiency is nearly as dependent on teammates as you’re making it out to be, and scoring efficiency is also only one part of the game.

    I agree that teammates don’t usually have a big effect (although LeBron usually does), but an offensive system does. By the time Galloway joined the Knicks we had no system at all.

  247. Also, what you all keep ignoring is that Langston was a better scorer than Shumpert was in college.

    College stats don’t just traslate one-for-one the NBA. Galloway didn’t play in the ACC and Shump left early.

    What you keep ignoring is that basketball is not just scoring efficiency, and even then Galloway was awful last season.

    Galloway is a guy who can defend 2 guard positions well, and if he can develop into a league average scoring guard, well-that’s a good player.

    If he can develop into a league average scoring G it will be AMAZING. An undrafted, 6’2″ SG who had a pretty putrid NBA debut…

    Which also highlights that there’s no real comparison in their situations. The Cavs can still take a flyer on a Galloway from time to time with Shumpert on their roster.

  248. Galloway played for a D LEAGUE team last year. Lets just stop this AIDS discussion.

  249. Since they are statistically very similar, that’s a strange argument to make.

    I don’t think the stats you’re offering up measure Shump’s value or the differences between the two particularly well. I am not arguing that Shumpert is a good scorer or a good offensive player. I am arguing that he has more defensive value and can at least fill a role offensively. Galloway is sort of a defensive specialist combo-guard.

  250. Ted, I’m not stating anything as a certainty. I am merely speculating. No one can predict the future with certainty. However, in my opinion, I think that Irving and Love have significant injury histories and that they are more likely to get injured than, say, LeBron, Mozgov, or Thompson on their team. In my opinion, it was more than coincidence, especially in Irving’s case, that they didn’t make it through the grind. Admittedly, I wouldn’t put them in the category of Amar’e or Granger. But if I were a Cleveland fan, I’d be concerned about their durability. I truly don’t get why you take such offense to this opinion.

  251. A ton? Really?? Coming from a guy who just accused me of creating a narrative based on my own preconceived notions.

    How many NBA teams that won a championship together as a unit didn’t have some of their best players in their early-to-mid 20s? I’d guess none.

    And, again, the Warriors collective playoff experience was not particularly different from the Cavs… so I don’t even think you have a point.

  252. This exchange reminds me of when I debated the merits of trading Gallinari v Anthony Randolph with Ted Nelson for days at extreme length. (I argued that Gallo was the better player, and we shouldn’t part with him in a trade; Ted felt that Randolph’s advanced stats supported the statement that he was a star waiting to happen if he just got more playing time, and we should do everything we could to hold onto him.) There was no chance of a concession on any point from Ted – or, to be fair, from me. I remember saying that Gallo paired with Melo better anyway, because spacing.

    Then the trade went down, both players AND Mozgov were gone, and though I was right and Gallo was shown to be a much better player, really we both lost, because the team was stripped of assets and a style of play I loved was ditched along with Pringles. I stopped posting altogether for several years….until they traded for T-1000, one of my then-favorite players, and I tuned back in.

    Point being, Z-Man, is that you should walk away before Phil trades for a bunch of overpriced vets and strips the team of assets! All you’ll have then is the chance to point to the injuries that have derailed the Cavs’s title hopes year after year as you in sackcloth amidst the ashes of the Knicks that could have been…

  253. If he can develop into a league average scoring G it will be AMAZING. An undrafted, 6’2? SG who had a pretty putrid NBA debut…

    A putrid NBA-debut that saw him put up numbers very similar to those of solid NBA player Iman Shumpert. Sounds decent to me.

  254. LOL..quite the interesting read- these 300-plus comments. After seeing these wings go for over market value(except Danny Green), I’m convinced that Phil needs to get Monroe and Koufos then fill the roster with minimum deal players while retaining Cole/Shved/Ledo/Thomas. Then once the cap explodes, he should aggressively go after Melo’s replacement, if he’s on the market. If he can’t land Monroe, Jordan, or Koufos, then that is a clear sign that a full rebuild is on- which is cool with me as well. As long as we get picks in this rebuild for taking contracts off of other teams’ books- that will be perfectly fine. I don’t know…maybe that’s what Phil wants. To move Melo and go forward with a full rebuild- after seeing how the 1st year of Melo’s deal was a failure.

  255. I don’t think Shumpert is that great, but I would argue he’s solidly an NBA player.

    His advanced stats (especially his sparkling ws/48 =.062 over 6200 minutes) eloquently argue he sucks at basketball. That’s Ray Felton territory.

  256. Most borderline NBA players never turn into NBA players no matter how much development time they get, and I would argue that Galloway is a borderline NBA player. I don’t think Shumpert is that great, but I would argue he’s solidly an NBA player.

    so you’re just stipulating that galloway is a borderline player then? Because all you’ve said is that galloway is 6’2 and doesn’t have “NBA skills” whatever that means. Statistically he’s outperformed shumpert on defense and is approximately equal on offense (they have about equal efficiency numbers with galloway at a higher usage) but has a better history of scoring and shooting the 3 along with better guard skills which gives us reason to think that he could improve, while Shumpert has given us ample reason to think he has little to no chance to improve. 99% of rookies are “putrid” in their first year, and you seem to be discounting galloway because you have preconceived notions about the viability of d-leaguers and undrafted types.

  257. Sorry but people hating on some of these deals are super silly. Dude can guard Lebron and play the 4 in legit small ball lineups.

    Hang on Hugo you’re putting words in my mouth. I did not say that Demarre isn’t worth 15 million. Rather, I said that if Demarre is worth 15 million in this market than Aldridge has to be worth more than 20 million. Therefore, it would be a good move to sign Aldridge at 20 million, even though he is redundant with melo in some ways.

  258. If he can’t land Monroe, Jordan, or Koufos, then that is a clear sign that a full rebuild is on- which is cool with me as well.

    Sorry..I meant to say that is likely a sign that a full rebuild is on.

  259. Wow, Ted is back and arguing the field the way Boris Spassky used to play chess against everyone in the room… This really is 2010 all over again!

  260. Hang on Hugo you’re putting words in my mouth. I did not say that Demarre isn’t worth 15 million. Rather, I said that if Demarre is worth 15 million in this market than Aldridge has to be worth more than 20 million. Therefore, it would be a good move to sign Aldridge at 20 million, even though he is redundant with melo in some ways.

    Sorry I misunderstood. I guess it’s just my general sentiment when I see people across social media blasting some of these deals when they don’t realize they will be perfectly fine in one or two years.

  261. @340 What???!! The Cavs were lead by a player that is arguably the GOAT in his prime who has 2 rings and 6 finals appearances (5 consecutive), playing at an unheard of 40+% usage. How you can possibly compare that to the Warriors collective playoff experience is beyond me.

    Again, the Warriors did not have a single top-7 rotation player who had gotten past the second round, and their top 4 players had an average age of 24. Their coach never coached at any level before. But yeah, they’ve peaked.

  262. Who cares that the Knicks haven’t signed anybody today, the best acquisition made was Knickerblogger re-acquiring Ted Nelson :-)

  263. I dunno, Im not sure why so much hate for Afflalo. I get not wanting to overpay him but shit if Shump can get 10m per year Afflalo should too. Im perfectly fine with not signing him but its not like signing him would rank anywhere near the worst moves in Knicks history.

  264. rama, I can’t leave now, been a Knicks fan since ’66! Still hoping that Zinger is Dirk 2.0 and we knock off the Cavs in playoffs 2017.

  265. Sacto is dumping salary. I wonder if they’re about to give Rondo a really stupid deal?

  266. I was kind of excited to see Ted and Ruruland, two super-posters, meet for the first time and do battle. But it seems Ted may have lost a step or two during his lay off. I actually think Ruru is making more sense today. (I mean, arguing that “a ton of first time NBA championship teams” were as young and inexperienced as the Warriors? Yeesh.). C’mon Ted! Shake off the rust! You got this!

  267. What’s interesting to me is that both Greens, Carroll and Matthews were all unheralded early on. Maybe we should try to find one of those guys rather than sign them after they get good.

    Ar there a lot less teams with cap space for this year, now that all of these signings have taken place?

  268. Giving away Stauskas to pay up for Monta Ellis isn’t gonna impress Lamarcus in meetings next time he’s a free agent.

  269. rama, I can’t leave now, been a Knicks fan since ’66! Still hoping that Zinger is Dirk 2.0 and we knock off the Cavs in playoffs 2017.

    Only since ’92 or so, but yeah, when I thought I’d quit the team after the Melo deal, I couldn’t quite do it. Didn’t watch a lot of games last year, though – I’m not crazy.

    Sacto is dumping salary. I wonder if they’re about to give Rondo a really stupid deal?

    Yes. Though I have to say, as much as I would HATE to have Rondo on the Knicks, I actually think he makes sense on Sacto. That could work.

  270. If the Knicks whiff on Monroe, that is really going to make Phil’s “clear salary cap space at all costs” strategy look pretty bad. At that point it’s time to start taking on bad contracts, renting the salary cap space in exchange for assets and convince Melo to waive the ol’ no trade clause.

    Yep. And here’s the thing, I think if Jackson absolutely fails at what he was trying to do (add a few big free agents), it might actually work out in the Knicks’ favor, because I think a long term rebuild is a better idea, and getting no big names might sort of force Melo to demand a trade, possibly getting a 2016 first rounder in return for him (unlikely, I know, but still!), which I think would be better for the franchise going forward than adding low level free agents. So I think him completely failing at what he intended to do, both last offseason and then this offseason, could be for the betterment of the franchise. However, if that happens, he better not get credit for trying to do the opposite and just failing so miserably that it worked out for the best.

    I still think the Knicks are getting Monroe, though, so it is hard to say Jackson completely failed if he at least gets Monroe.

  271. the sacto deal hurts the knicks slightly altho i don’t think they are going after the same type of guys…

    after the aldridge/jordan/monroe dust settles there should be a good number of free agents that could be had for decent deals… lot of solid centers available… besides lopez you still have davis, aldrich, withey, o’quinn, seraphin, biyombo and jason smith. All those names besides lopez and davis should go for about the same or less than what ajinca got…

  272. If the Knicks lose out on Monroe its gonna be pretty rough for sure. I guess they could sign Lopez, Afflalo and another mid-tier FA or 2 and still have a decent team next season w/o crippling their salary cap long term.

  273. melo in this trade market could absolutely bring back something really good… if he proves his health next season … houston, dallas, atlanta and chicago could put together some really interesting packages for him… but we’re still a ways off from that happening…

  274. Holy shit sixers get a protected one plus the right to swap firsts with sacto in two other drafts in that Stauskas trade.

  275. Even in this inflated market, Asik at 5 yrs/60 mil is absurd. I probably wouldn’t even give him 5/45. I mean the guy is a complete zero on offense and I’m not even sure he’s all that good on d either.

  276. @373 and every big man in the league except maybe 2 lol..jeez they’re gonna trot out a lineup of all 4’s/5’s

  277. You know, laying low again this year might be a really good strategy in terms of opportunity cost.

    These salaries do not seemed to be tied to current cap. yes, max deal could offer nice value, but I’d honestly just try to find a couple of good young values and just wait until next year.

  278. I mean, it’s all of a sudden a lot harder for New Orleans to build a championship team around Anthony Davis the next four years.

    I like Robin Lopez, but if that’s where the market is at, no way.

  279. and next year.. the max’s are 25% more… and it’s pretty much barren.. you have conley and howard plus some soso restricted names that aren’t likely to move… it would be disastrous if we whiffed this year…

  280. Man,the Kings are a clownshow. They did all that to make a run at Monta Ellis? Is the plan to keep Boogie from taking dumb shots by letting Ellis take them instead?

  281. If Asik got that much I assume Robin Lopez will get close to that amount if not more.

  282. I have to guess that Robin Lopez will get 4 yrs/50-55M and it’ll feel like a steal.

  283. let’s just assume that any of those guys are equal to the players on the market right now even after all the signings have taken place… hibbert, gallinari, batum, derozan and noah would all command 4yr deals probably close to 18-20mm… i am not shitting you on this… 25 teams will have over 20mm in cap space next year… and pretty sure that half theoe names will be maxed…

    then you have howard whose max will be more than LMA’s… conley also…

    that leaves you with durant and whiteside… and we are still fighting with half the league on those two names… playing next year’s FA market is not a game we should be playing… our only advantage comes this year…

  284. I’m sorry, the 76ers took on a young PG and a bunch of cap detritus to get a 1st rounder and the right to swap twice with a perennial lottery team?!?!?

    Why can’t we do that :/

    By the time LeBron is done, the Sixers are going to be setup for a decade.

  285. Part of what is hilarious about this is SACRAMENTO clearing space to try and sign free agents. Hahaha…

  286. I’m sorry, the 76ers took on a young PG and a bunch of cap detritus to get a 1st rounder and the right to swap twice with a perennial lottery team?!?!?

    Why can’t we do that :/

    Because their is a lengthy line you need to get in to hustle the Kings out of everything they have.

  287. Well at least we Knicks fans can say “at least we’re not the Kings.” That’s something right?

    I mean, they gave up multiple good assets *for nothing guaranteed*… they are gambling big-time on their ability to convince guys to play on a team that is not very good so that it might one day be good and the cost of the trade will be mitigated. This is like the Bargnani trade but without even receiving the worst player in the NBA in return (so maybe better than the Bargnani trade).

    Ahhh Vlade, I want you to be a good GM…..

  288. Jeez! 10 million dollars for 82 games of basketball times 4 to Iman Shumpert.

    This sounded like a good idea to someone.

  289. We haven’t talked too much about this here, but the Knicks are trying to swing a sign and trade for Nemanja Bjelica. The Knicks could possibly acquire Bjelica by taking on a bad contract from Minnesota, and Minny has some good candidates:

    Chase Budinger (1 year, $5M)
    Anthony Bennett (1 year, $5.8M)
    Kevin Martin (2 years, $14.3M)

    Bjelica would presumably be a great fit in this offense– he reminds me a lot of Lamar Odom in terms of size and versatility. He’s also not a chump on defense and will probably not require a huge contract. I would normally say the Knicks have no shot at getting this guy, but Minnesota is one of the dumber teams in the league so you never know.

  290. I would take on Martin and Bennett”s contract and give up a 2nd rounder. I think the knicks could get him though for two 2nd rders though. Also, it is rumored that he is looking for somewhere around $5-7m a yr so that’s not bad.

    I doubt Minny gives up Martin though. He is now a steal but this would be the time to try to fleece Minny.

  291. That is absolutely the sort of thing the Knicks should be doing. But then again, so was that Kings deal. That’s the exact sort of thing the Knicks should be doing. Hinkie!!!

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