Knicks Morning News (2017.05.23)

  • [NYDN] Dave Bliss will stay aboard Knicks as coach
    (Monday, May 22, 2017 3:47:35 PM)

    The Knicks dropped one of their player development coaches but the other will remain on the staff.

  • [NYTimes] Warriors Sweep Spurs to Reach Third Finals in Three Years
    (Tuesday, May 23, 2017 4:20:02 AM)

    Stephen Curry scored 36 points, and Kevin Durant had 29 points and 12 rebounds, as Golden State advanced to the N.B.A.’s championship series.

  • [NYTimes] Knicks Will Not Renew Contract of Josh Longstaff, an Assistant Coach
    (Tuesday, May 23, 2017 2:46:55 AM)

    Longstaff was a favorite of the Knicks’ young star Kristaps Porzingis, who is on rocky terrain with the team after he skipped his exit meeting last month.

  • [NYTimes] N.B.A. Player Enes Kanter Blames Erdogan for Detention in Romania
    (Monday, May 22, 2017 6:04:16 PM)

    Kanter, a center for the Oklahoma City Thunder, was stuck at a Bucharest airport for hours because Turkey had canceled his travel documents.

  • [NYTimes] Celtics’ Upset of Cavaliers Stretches Out a Foregone Conclusion
    (Monday, May 22, 2017 2:39:08 PM)

    Boston trails the Cavaliers by only two games to one, but before you make plans for a Game 7, consider the unusual events that led to Sunday’s surprising win.

  • [NYPost] The only way to save the Knicks is beyond their control
    (Monday, May 22, 2017 6:37:31 PM)

    Danny Ainge had already turned the Celtics down twice. This was 14 years ago, and the Celtics had settled into a most unaccustomed place in the NBA’s stratosphere: No longer powerful enough to contend for championships, not woeful enough to qualify for top-flight draft picks, not attractive enough to lure big-time free agents. The men…

  • [NYPost] Knicks now curiously allow another Porzingis pal to stay
    (Monday, May 22, 2017 3:39:26 PM)

    The Knicks got rid of one player development coach and Kristaps Porzingis confidant in Josh Longstaff, but they’re keeping another. Dave Bliss will be retained by the team, according to a league source. The pair had been instrumental in tutoring the 21-year-old Porzingis, but Longstaff’s contract wasn’t renewed. It was an eyebrow-raising move by the…

  • [SNY Knicks] Daily News Live: Where do Phil Jackson and Kristaps Porzingis stand?
    (Monday, May 22, 2017 6:33:44 PM)

    The DNL panel doesn’t understand Phil Jackson’s firing of the Knicks assistant coach, and questions his relationship with Kristaps Porzingis

  • [SNY Knicks] Knicks to work out Iowa State guard Burton
    (Monday, May 22, 2017 5:06:00 PM)

    The New York Knicks are reportedly planning on holding a workout with Iowa State guard Deonte Burton on Tuesday.

  • [SNY Knicks] Will Knicks be interested in G Dennis Smith, Jr.?
    (Monday, May 22, 2017 11:25:13 AM)

    Will the Knicks, with the eighth overall selection in next month’s NBA Draft, be interested in North Carolina State’s Dennis Smith Jr.?

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    Mike Kurylo

    Mike Kurylo is the founder and editor of KnickerBlogger.net. His book on the 2012 Knicks, "We’ll Always Have Linsanity," is on sale now. Follow him on twitter (@KnickerBlogger).

    125 thoughts to “Knicks Morning News (2017.05.23)”

    1. I’m not sure how I feel about their reported interest in Tucker and Cunningham. Sure they are veteran presences that theoretically play defense and aren’t complete zeroes on the offensive end, but both will be expensive (and I believe their teams have Bird rights on them also). They’re culture-changing guys which is good, but why are we signing 30 and 32 year old free agents again?

    2. I don’t mind signing older FA’s as long as we keep the contracts to reasonable money over 2-3 years. I think we’ll have enough youth coming in through the draft this year with our first and two 2nds. We’ve routinely brought in UDFA’s as well during Phil’s time here.

      I would prefer we only signed 1 of those 2 guys though and a vet stopgap PG as well.

    3. Back in April, when Phil gave his end-of-season address, he put forth a vision how the team would operate, as well as the characteristics of what a NY Knicks player should look like:

      Defensive-minded 2-way high IQ player that gives effort every play.

      He hadn’t done that before, instead seeking to adapt his ideas with those of his coaches and players, some of whom weren’t willing to work with him. Fisher, for instance, stopped communicating with his boss. I doubt if any of you work at places that would tolerate such.

      After the failures we’ve seen over the past 3 years Phil has now decided to, more or less, assert this vision upon the team. That includes changing personnel that fit this vision. I think this is a potentially good thing and I just wish he had done this 3 years ago.

      Every successful sports franchise, at some point in time, had someone come in and clean house and introduce their vision. It doesn’t mean he’ll succeed but, at least IMO, it’s a step in the right direction.

    4. The Rubio thing is interesting. I can imagine a trade to Minnesota for Rubio(sending them Lee), then drafting Ntilikina, then running an almost all euro lineup with KP, Rubio, Ntilikina, and Willy.

      What an absolute fail by the FO not to get Rubio at the deadline if they are indeed still interested. Now we would have to send an actual asset.

    5. We don’t have anything to offer for Rubio.

      Minny already has a starting SG in Lavine playing 37 minutes per game and around 30 million in capspace to spend this offseason. If they feel that really need a SG because of Lavine’s injury they could also draft monk with their pick.

      Paying 12 million + an asset for Courtney Lee doesn’t make sense for them.

    6. I do like Jackson’s willingness to pay for players like Courtney Lee and RoLo. Of course it doesn’t do much if you deal them away and/or make other stupid moves.

    7. After the failures we’ve seen over the past 3 years Phil has now decided to, more or less, assert this vision upon the team. That includes changing personnel that fit this vision. I think this is a potentially good thing and I just wish he had done this 3 years ago.

      lol – Phil’s already replaced the roster twice. If he wasn’t doing it to fit his vision, what was he doing?

      Look, I can sort of buy the excuse that Phil never fully put his stamp on this team, always compromising his vision to fit the conditions on the ground. Fine. As a Knicks fan, I can get on board with at least having an actual plan, even if I don’t agree with the plan. Phil has (so far) shown pretty significant restraint in terms of trading draft picks, so the worst thing (short-term results-wise that is) that happens is that we’re in the lottery for the next 2 years and we build up our young talent base. He just can’t sign these long-term disastrous FA contracts. Hopefully he’s learned his lesson from the Noah fiasco.

      The other problem is that there are no Triangle coaches left. Phil can’t coach. Rambis is universally hated by players. How are you going to play a system that your own coaches don’t understand or really believe in?

      Hornacek is really in a bad spot here. His first year was terrible. He clearly doesn’t actually have autonomy, or else I’m sure Rambis would be gone. Now Phil is going to be half-coaching. He’s not a head coach anymore -he’s just middle management. Maybe he’s thinking that he just has to survive the next 2 years, then will have 2 years under whoever is the next POBO to implement his system. But his career may not survive this stretch. Seems likely that whoever is the next POBO will want to hire his own coach.

    8. We don’t have anything to offer for Rubio.

      Minny already has a starting SG in Lavine playing 37 minutes per game and around 30 million in capspace to spend this offseason. If they feel that really need a SG because of Lavine’s injury they could also draft monk with their pick.

      Paying 12 million + an asset for Courtney Lee doesn’t make sense for them.

      If sources can be believed, they were our main competition for Lee last offseason. They already had Lavine at that point.

      And re: Monk, Thibs is known to not trust rookies. Lee is right up his alley. I’d be surprised if they didn’t want to do that deal.

      Re: their $30MM in cap space — look at this ugly group of FA shooting guards: http://hoopshype.com/2017/04/26/nba-free-agency-2017-shooting-guards/

      Lee at an averaging about $12.2MM x the next 3 seasons is a bargain compared to what those dudes are going to get. People are talking about Redick starting at $18MM/year.

    9. Imo Phil had a patient approach to rebuilding the team over his first 2 seasons in charge. He stripped the roster down and then added some veteran FA’s mostly on short term deals outside of RoLo. I was fine with that plan.

      Last summer was a clear departure from that plan with the Rose trade and blowing his load on Noah and Lee. This was probably influenced by his meeting with Melo where Melo pushed him to acquire veterans that would help win now, but Phil has to own up to those choices because he could have just told Melo that we’re not sacrificing anything related to our future cap flexibility in a short-sighted attempt to win now. On top of that his moves backfired and the team finished a game worse than the previous season.

      I still don’t have much of a problem with our position long-term in spite of that, though I’d feel significantly better if we didn’t have 3/$54m left of Noah. Phil, at the very minimum, made moves that still allowed us some flexibility in the short term and didn’t sacrifice any long term assets to do so unless you view Jerian Grant as such, which I don’t. That’s really the best thing that can be said about Phil’s tenure thus far is that he’s drafted a couple of promising young players in KP and Willy and has the organization on stable footing as far as future drafts are concerned.

      That said he’s failed at implementing his vision for the organization or even sticking to a plan to get it done and to change the culture. The roster turnover in his first year in charge was understandable, but he took a big risk last summer turning it over again and came up with snake eyes.

      He should be fired, but since he’s here for 2 more years then I like the focus on culture focused vet signings and building through the draft which for now seems to be the plan again. I hope he learned a valuable lesson last summer and sticks to it this time.

    10. i don’t know why ppl don’t like tatum… i guess he reminds ppl of melo too much with his offense… but he’s fairly similar to jackson without the shooting problems.. he’s almost a full year younger also… and he’s much more of a true SF than isaac…

    11. I’m fine with Tatum…

      On Jackson… I’ll buy the ‘he’s only going full process now’ argument – and try to overlook the dumber moves thus far. We’re stuck with him, so we might as well try to see the bright side.

      I can’t get on board though with the idea that all he did with Melo was be honest and tell the truth (from yesterday’s thread). By all accounts he never actually sat down with Melo and ‘told’ him anything – just passive-aggressively took shots at him through proxies in the media than agreed to a meeting where he just asked if he wanted to stay and then ended the meeting. What he said at the press conference at the end of the year was pretty on the money – but the damage was long done by then.

      How hard is this it to sit the guy down and say ‘we haven’t made this work so we’re going a different way. You can stay – I respect your commitment to this franchise. But if you do your role may change, we may hold your more accountable on D to set an example to younger players, and we’re going to build through the draft and young FAs so we may not win much for the rest of your contract. What would you like to do?’

    12. @13 – that’s the same issue I have with Jackson. He’s the Zen Master and all but it seems like he has no idea how to actually communicate without playing mind games. Sometimes just having a private sit-down where you lay out the truth is better than asking Charley Rosen to do a hatchet job on your marquee player.

    13. Now, I wonder if the best option is to ask him to invoke his ETO for 2018 now in return for waiving him. Then our commitment to his salary is only one year, and if someone claims him then again it’s only one year. But if they don’t he can sign one more multi year contract now for the team of his choice.

      Still prefer to trade him but only if what comes back is better than $26m of cap space one year early…

    14. Looks good in every aspect but remember WCS’s insane 3 pt shooting predraft?

    15. If Melo played D then we wouldn’t be so rough on him. Tatum seems to have more potential on that side of the ball.

    16. What an absolute fail by the FO not to get Rubio at the deadline if they are indeed still interested. Now we would have to send an actual asset.

      + 100

      I wish we knew exactly what happened. We never really found out if it was Phil that balked because he wanted more than just Rubio for Rose or whether they never actually had a deal and Minny backed out.

    17. I think its likely that someone in the Minny FO talked Thibs out of the trade. Phil sucks at his job but that was a ridiculously one sided trade in our favor.

    18. @10

      I agree.

      He was on a very good path despite not having 2 first round picks to work with in his first 3 years. If he had those picks and did well with just 1 of them, we’d have a mildly different view of his reign. If he did well with both, we’d be one of the better positioned teams in the NBA long term.

      The Rose for Lopez/Grant move wasn’t good, but it wasn’t that bad. Rose will be gone. So we’ll get that cap space back and I think you can argue Holiday is better than Grant so far. I’d rather we didn’t do that deal, but it’s not the kind of disaster Knicks fans have had to tolerate in the past.

      It was the Noah signing that looks terrible because of the kind of season he had, the duration of the contract, and the obviousness of his recent injury history. He was mostly bad when he was trying to play through injuries and he missed a ton of games. But now we are projecting last year forward for the next 3 years as if it’s 100% certain he will be horrible the entire time. It’s not impossible he has a couple of good seasons of productive 20-25 minute basketball and plays more games. If that happens he won’t be worth the price, but again, it won’t be a disaster. He’ll be gone by the time young players start peaking.

      The key is getting THIS draft pick right. We have to come away with a player with all-star potential (preferably someone that can score).

    19. If Noah plays productive 20-25 minutes a game for the first 2-3 months of next season he’s a real asset. But the chances of that happening are not great.

    20. Holiday is better than Grant so far.

      He’s also a free agent. Phil’s moves last year were really bad.

    21. I would rather have 1 year of Holiday and an empty roster spot than Jerian Grant. I’d also rather have a middling 2nd round pick than Grant.

    22. I would rather have 1 year of Holiday and an empty roster spot than Jerian Grant. I’d also rather have a middling 2nd round pick than Grant.

      Is it likely a middling 2nd round pick could play 1000 minutes of NBA basketball and put up a WS/48 of .118 next season?

      We also won 31 games last season, so I’m not sure what the marginal benefit of having Holiday over Grant (if it exists) got us.

    23. Rose will be gone.

      I still think that Lopez is good value at $14M AAV for the next two years, but oddly, if Willy becomes a 34 MPG center next year — which he absolutely should be — it will have been smart to ditch the Lopez contract.

      Unfortunately, Jackson had no idea that Willy would be quite as good as he has been (probably the best rookie, per minute, last year) and obviously had no foresight whatsoever on the Noah contract.

      If we’re going by the [redacted] school of transaction evaluation, i.e. the outcome of the decision is more important than the means used to decide, then sure, it’s pretty good that Lopez’s contract turned into 2 years of $14M in cap space when it looks like we could have a future star at center. But at the time? Still a terrible trade.

    24. Is it likely a middling 2nd round pick could play 1000 minutes of NBA basketball and put up a WS/48 of .118 next season?

      Grant played off ball entirely. He sucks at performing as PG. If you cycle through his play types the vast majority of his efficient offense came from improvements as a spot up shooter which he was able to do a lot of because Chicago had Butler, Wade and Rondo able to run a majority of their offense. That’s great if you want a backup 2 guard, but he’s not going to cut it as a PG with his remedial handle and poor court vision.

      He looked like a toddler when he was thrust into the starting role in the playoffs and was off the floor almost instantly. He never was and never will be a good PG. Ron improved his handle last year more than Grant has in 2 seasons and put up similar numbers as a rookie while operating as a PG, a role he never played in college playing as the 2 next to Van Vleet. I think there’s a fairly reasonable chance he ends up being the superior player.

    25. @7, so true
      The Knicks need to build some continuity. Turning over 2/3 of the roster every year is not a winning formula – fact. Lee is at least an average NBA player, better than most currently on the roster. Why sign him if you are just going to trade him and start over within a year? Unless someone offers something ridiculous (not likely in this lifetime ) , perhaps the Knicks should try to keep their decent players and build a team rather than tearing it down and starting over Every Year.

    26. He’s also a free agent. Phil’s moves last year were really bad.

      That is a downside. Now we are going to have to pay him if we want to keep him. Grant would have been cheaper for a couple of years. But are we so much higher on Grant than we are on one of either Randle or Baker becoming a similar level backup?

    27. Ron Baker was 23 last year and had a sub-zero WS48. He achieved this by combining brutal scoring efficiency with a propensity for turnovers. He was a fucking brutal player. He was Travis Wear, but a guard.

      Baker’s eFG% was .431, good for 15th on the team, ahead of only Sasha. His turnover percentage was 19.2%, good for 14th on the team, ahead of only Noah and Plumlee. His TS% was .456, 15th on the team, ahead of only Sasha. I don’t really understand why people pretend Ron Baker is some sort of intriguing young player. He’s a replacement-level player.

    28. Nothing about keeping Grant would have stopped us from signing Ron Baker.

      Last year Courntey Lee played off the ball and put up a BPM of -.2 for 11 million dollars. Everyone likes Courtney Lee. Last year Jerian Grant played off the ball and put up a BPM of -.3 for 1.6 million dollars. I realize you have an irrational hatred of Grant, but objectively he wasn’t a bad player last season, and certainly not for his salary, and it was extremely stupid and Knicksy to give him up for what amounts to nothing at all.

    29. I still think that Lopez is good value at $14M AAV for the next two years, but oddly, if Willy becomes a 34 MPG center next year — which he absolutely should be — it will have been smart to ditch the Lopez contract.

      Unfortunately, Jackson had no idea that Willy would be quite as good as he has been (probably the best rookie, per minute, last year) and obviously had no foresight whatsoever on the Noah contract.

      If we’re going by the [redacted] school of transaction evaluation, i.e. the outcome of the decision is more important than the means used to decide, then sure, it’s pretty good that Lopez’s contract turned into 2 years of $14M in cap space when it looks like we could have a future star at center. But at the time? Still a terrible trade.

      I agree on point #1.

      On point #2, he went out of his way to get a pick to draft him. Maybe he’s going to be better than anyone thought, but that’s part of the randomness of picks. Some work better than you expect and others worse.

      I can’t entirely agree on #3 even though I was having a stress attack when it happened. I don’t think he would have made that deal other than the fact that Rose was on a 1 year contract. That part of it was widely discussed. He viewed it as a free roll on Rose. If Rose failed, it was mostly Lopez vs. Cap Space. So the difference between Lopez’s contract (which was mildly attractive) vs. Cap Space (which is a future unknown but we can assume a fair contract) is the downside. That’s not a disaster. Lopez is no screaming bargain.

    30. So the difference between Lopez’s contract (which was mildly attractive) vs. Cap Space (which is a future unknown but we can assume a fair contract) is the downside. That’s not a disaster. Lopez is no screaming bargain.

      Ummm, Lopez’ cap space (and then some) was used to acquire Joakim Noah. Which is to say that cap space became a big honking black hole.

    31. I realize you have an irrational hatred of Grant, but objectively he wasn’t a bad player last season, and certainly not for his salary, and it was extremely stupid and Knicksy to give him up for what amounts to nothing at all.

      I have no irrational hatred for Grant. He’s just not a good PG and can’t run an offense. I don’t think he should have been included in the deal, but I also don’t think he has much value beyond a 2nd round pick.

      @31

      And all those numbers are similar to Jerian Grant’s production his rookie season at the same age.

    32. @31. Baker’s downside (which admittedly is quite large) is his scoring efficiency. But he’s a plus defender with some other decent skills. If he can improve his shot he’ll be a decent backup.

      @32 Nothing would have prevented us from signing Baker and/or Randle if we already had Grant, except that we wouldn’t have if we already had a backup PG.

      By the way, I’m not the guy with the hatred of Grant. When he started off the season terribly last year for Chicago and everyone was blasting him, I argued for several days it was way too soon to evaluate him and that he was actually pretty good based on what we saw in NY the second half of the season. But he’s at best a backup (at least now).

    33. Ummm, Lopez’ cap space (and then some) was used to acquire Joakim Noah. Which is to say that cap space became a big honking black hole.

      That was LAST YEAR’s Cap Space that I have already agreed could have been used better than Noah.

      Rose’s Cap Space is available this summer.

    34. @28
      So you would rather have Holiday a back up 2-guard than Grant who apparently played great last year in the role of a back up 2 guard and Grant is younger and on a rookie contract?

    35. @yellowboy90

      Jerian Grant isn’t a solution to any of our problems. Holiday probably isn’t either but is better at SG than Grant is at point. Maybe the 2nd round pick we got can be an answer moving forward.

      If Chicago looked to trade Grant right now what do you think they’d get? A 2nd round pick?

    36. I’ve been taking a lot of contrarian opinions the last few days. It’s part of my nature. But that’s nothing compared to this.

      If one of Taytum or Monk is available at #8, that’s who we are going to draft. If neither is available, I think we are going to try to trade down to get Justin Jackson and a free roll on someone else.

      The reason I say that is all the free agent names coming up are mostly low usage defenders.

      If the Knicks let Rose walk and trade Melo, the Knicks have very little scoring. So we are either going to draft a scorer, keep Rose on a 1 year deal (perhaps with a team option for year 2), or we are going to keep Melo. Phil is not going to put an unbalanced team on the court. If Rose and Melo are gone, he’s going to find scorers in the draft.

    37. Grant definitely shot way better than I expected he would last year — basically the exact opposite of what I expected from Ron Baker.

      Grant was all over the place from 3 in college – as low as 31% and as high as 41%, so averaged in mid 30s with a FT% of about 80%. he then shot 22% from 3 as a Knick, then up to 35% as a Bull with a FT% of 89%, well better than anything he ever did before. If these improvements are for real, then Grant clearly has more upside than I thought. If they’re not… nothing else about his profile really screams any upside.

      Baker was probably a slightly better 3 point shooter in college and an equal FT shooter to Grant – and similarly shot very poorly his first year in the NBA.

      Baker and Grant basically had similarly awful rookie seasons. Grant improved somewhat unexpectedly. Let’s see what happens going forward with Baker.

    38. If Chicago looked to trade Grant right now what do you think they’d get? A 2nd round pick?

      Ironically that Grant/Hardaway Jr deal that we all thought was a total theft (myself included) doesn’t look so good right now.

    39. I don’t know if Holiday is better at this point and since the Knicks are not winning anytime soon why would I want to waste time with a 28 year old up for a new deal. Why not continue to invest in the younger player on a cost controlled deal.

      Grant is probably worth a 2nd rd pick but it is highly likely that pick will turn into Thanasis.

    40. I think a lot of this article is nonsense, but look at how few NBA second round picks succeed. Grant has already showed he can play decent NBA basketball. Could Chicago get more than a second round pick for him if they put him on the market? I doubt it, but that just reinforces how bad NBA teams are at understanding player value. Grant was roughly equivalent to Courtney Lee last year by BPM, WP, PER, WS and RPM. He’s not a solution to our problems, but he would have freed up a lot of money to find some.

    41. Baker and Grant basically had similarly awful rookie seasons. Grant improved somewhat unexpectedly. Let’s see what happens going forward with Baker.

      Why would you say “unexpectedly” when shooting is the one thing than can improve well into a player’s career?

      While he was a Knick we heard that he had a very good work ethic (and has a good pedigree). That was one reason I liked him. I thought it was a mortal lock he’d get better with time even if his upside was capped.

    42. Grant was roughly equivalent to Courtney Lee last year by BPM, WP, PER, WS and RPM. He’s not a solution to our problems, but he would have freed up a lot of money to find some.

      This may be sacrilege on an advanced stats forum, but I consider that evidence of flaws in the models that try to evaluate players with one number.

      IMO, Courtney Lee is a lot better than Grant.

      There’s not any one stat I can point to make a strong case. He’s just a way more polished player that you can count on to make some big plays and handle pressure situations better than Grant. Courtney Lee would be a valuable piece on a lot of top teams (and even start on some). Grant would’t see the light of day on a lot of the same teams. That wouldn’t be because they are all stupid. It would be based on observation of what happens on the court and how each handles it. IMHO, (stress humble in this case) it’s not correct to totally dismiss intangibles.

    43. @ 26 Holiday isn’t turning into a pumpkin at age 30. I wish this type of thinking would stop here. I get wanting young players but do you think its possible the Knicks could be good in say 2 seasons from now? If so then Holiday might be worth keeping because he would be 30 at that point. I get that the decline starts around 30 but its not like they go from age 30 to 38 in one year. There are still productive years to be had in the early 30s. Especially for role players who don’t play heavy starter minutes. So if you think Holiday is a good player/bench piece, has a good attitude, work ethic and high basketball IQ, why wouldn’t you want to lock him up during his prime years (generally late 20s to early 30s), especially if these attributes help the younger players develop and also helps those younger players mentally deal with losing a lot of games early on. We aren’t competing this next season and probably not the season after that too. But 3 seasons from now? We could be competing at that point and Holiday would still be 31 at that point (and near the end of his contract).

      I don’t think going full on process is a solution to our problems either. Smart, team first veterans are a good thing to have on a team with young players and a team that is growing and probably losing a lot of games at first.

    44. @ 47 – that being said don’t overpay for Holiday. But as a nice bench piece veteran who knows his role and isn’t going to demand to be a starter, he’s a decent guy to have. Lock him up for 3 or 4 years at a decent salary and you got a guy who can play a defined role to help establish the system you want. If he’s on a decent contract and playing his role well, he should be easy enough to move if we get a great younger player to replace him.

    45. I would rather have 1 year of Holiday and an empty roster spot than Jerian Grant. I’d also rather have a middling 2nd round pick than Grant.

      I don’t understand how you can praise the Justin Holiday acquisition and at the same time say losing Grant is insignificant. Grant was better than Holiday this year at just about everything, is younger, and is signed on the cheap for way longer. There’s no comparison as far as who is a better asset. Holiday is a non-asset–a free agent to be after one season in which he helped us win 31 games. Grant is a 23 year old who just put up a .118 WS48 and is signed for two more seasons. That objectively has value, there’s no way around it. He’s the same age as Ron Baker and was better than him at everything too. How is this even being argued?

    46. Found this clip of Manu on a board somewhere, just a random moment of greatness, with the added fillip of Melo being involved. I hope he plays another year. For all the talk of him slowing down he was still effective this year, posting an above average WS/48. I don’t know we will ever see his like again and it’s going to be a tough day for me when he hangs it up. There have been better players but no one I would have rather watched play in the last 15 years.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4EOaswqRUwM

    47. Tbh I don’t think baker’s defense is as great as people say it is. He still lacks lateral quickness to stay in front of quicker guards. Idk maybe I’m wrong but when I look at other knicks blogs hyping him up I honestly don’t think he’s as great as they say.

    48. Grant is a 23 year old who just put up a .118 WS48 and is signed for two more seasons. That objectively has value, there’s no way around it. He’s the same age as Ron Baker and was better than him at everything too. How is this even being argued?

      Wrong.

      Grant is a year older than Baker. He produced similarly across the board to Baker as a rookie at the same age and Baker didn’t play point for 5 years in college like Grant.

      What do you think Grant’s value is? A PG that can’t run an offense and is better off as a spot up shooter. How many teams can accomodate him in that role? Houston? Cleveland?

      I already said I think we should have been able to not include him in the deal, but yeah I’d rather have Holiday and a 2nd round pick than Grant.

      I’m not even trying to hype up Baker. I’m saying I think there’s a pretty decent chance he can improve as a shooter, like Grant did, and if he does I think he’ll be a better player because he showed more to me than Grant has in being able to run an offense at times. Both to me have bench combo guard as their ceiling.

    49. I can’t wait for the next stupid trade Phil makes so we can stop talking about Grant already.

    50. A PG that can’t run an offense and is better off as a spot up shooter.

      that’s what you call a shooting guard.

    51. i was of the mindset that we should try to move Lee and re-sign holiday to replace him because of the Lee’s age and all but I’m starting to soften because it may be wise to have both on the roster.
      Lee , WHG and holiday were our best players last season.

    52. Grant is a year older than Baker. He produced similarly across the board to Baker as a rookie at the same age and Baker didn’t play point for 5 years in college like Grant.

      Wrong.

      C’mon, this is easy to look up. Grant is 172 days older than Baker. They are both 24. Is that what you want to hang your hat on? The .136 point difference in WS48 is because of those 172 days?

      Also, for what it’s worth, Grant wasn’t nearly as dreadful as a rookie as Baker was. His WS48 was .046 points higher.

      What do you think Grant’s value is? A PG that can’t run an offense and is better off as a spot up shooter. How many teams can accomodate him in that role? Houston? Cleveland?

      I already said I think we should have been able to not include him in the deal, but yeah I’d rather have Holiday and a 2nd round pick than Grant.

      Grant’s value is that of an above average player who can still possible improve and makes $1.6 million a year for the next two years. That’s value.

      We don’t have Holiday. He’s a free agent, we had him for one season in which he helped us win 31 games. As for a second round pick, how many second round picks have put up a season like the one Grant just did? Very, very few I would imagine (as a percentage anyway).

    53. Even with my earlier post I do like baker and he really needs to work on that shoot to be a consistent rotational player

    54. Baker, Holiday and a 2nd Round pick or Baker and Grant?

      Baker and Holiday are free agents, so the question is would you rather have Grant or a second round pick.

    55. Baker and Holiday are free agents, so the question is would you rather have Grant or a second round pick.

      Pretending NBA contracts don’t exist in order to rationalize Phil Jackson’s fuckery is a big part of what we do here.

    56. Grant and Baker did not have “equal” rookie seasons. Grant’s was better.

      Baker had a substantially higher turnover than Grant rate as a rookie, and a lower assist rate. Baker’s TS% was 25 points lower.

      Add it all up, and Grant was around .030 in WS48. Bad, but not catastrophic. I’ve seen guards with WS48 numbers like that as rookies go on to have decent careers. Baker’s WS48 was sub-zero. I’m not so sure I’ve seen too many guys with a sub-zero WS48 at age 23 turn it around. Maybe there are some examples, I dunno. And before you say “but WS48 is a dumb stat doe” I will throw out the caveat that yes, it’s not perfect. It’s kind of a shorthand way to evaluate a player. The underlying numbers still say that Grant was the clearly better player as a rookie. The point is, Grant had a higher baseline from which to improve.

    57. the problem with signing holiday is that this past season was basically his first good year… this happens all the time… bazemore, carroll and our very own lance thomas… had a long history of playing doodoo… had one or two years with passable play… and then just started playing doodoo again…

      holiday is exactly the same… there’s no reason he should be resigned… you can get the same thing with a 2nd rd pick or from the dleague…

    58. Also for the record, I think the front office leaking that we need more “free agents like Courtney Lee” is a bad sign. We don’t need more expensive guys on the wrong side of 30 who do nothing for the team besides take us from the 4th pick to the 8th pick and prevent us from accumulating assets.

      I get that Courtney Lee is a competent NBA player and since we don’t have many of those he can be refreshing in a way, but if we build a team of Courtney Lees we’re going to suck and not have the flexibility needed to get on the right path. Phil Jackson likes Lee because Lee is one of his few acquisitions that hasn’t totally embarrassed him, but we shouldn’t care about that.

    59. Wrong.

      C’mon, this is easy to look up. Grant is 172 days older than Baker. They are both 24. Is that what you want to hang your hat on? The .136 point difference in WS48 is because of those 172 days?

      Baker played all but the last 2 weeks of the season at 23 years old. Grant played all of this past year at age 24. Give me a break.

      Also, for what it’s worth, Grant wasn’t nearly as dreadful as a rookie as Baker was. His WS48 was .046 points higher.

      But their rate stats per 100 possessions in most statistical categories are very similar and Baker was adjusting to a new position.

      Grant’s value is that of an above average player who can still possible improve and makes $1.6 million a year for the next two years. That’s value.

      We disagree on this and won’t see eye to eye. I think Grant benefited from having no responsibilities as a ball handler. When he had to run the offense he didn’t show any growth. I don’t think there’d be much interest in his services around the league.

      Baker and Holiday are free agents, so the question is would you rather have Grant or a second round pick.

      I mean Baker’s restricted and I doubt anybody’s going to get into a bidding war for his services. Fairly confident he’ll be around next season given the public praise both Phil and Hornacek lavished on him.

      As for a second round pick, how many second round picks have put up a season like the one Grant just did? Very, very few I would imagine (as a percentage anyway).

      I would rather have the lottery ticket than Grant. We don’t agree on that is all.

      that’s what you call a shooting guard.

      Shooting guards need to be able to do more than spot up shoot. He can’t shoot curling off of screens and pindowns because his release is mechanical. He’s also a bad cutter.

    60. @JK47

      Baker rookie season per 100 possessions: 5.7 rebounds, 6.2 assists, 2.0 steals, 0.5 blocks. 3.3 turnovers, 12.5 points, 37.8 FG%, 26.7 3P%, 43.1 eFG%, 45.6 TS%

      Grant rookie season per 100 possessions: 5.8 rebounds, 7.2 assists, 2.0 steals, 0.4 blocks. 3.5 turnovers, 17.1 points, 39.4 FG%, 22.0 3P%, 42.2 eFG%, 47.9 TS%

      Similar across the board.

    61. Things I learned on KnickerBlogger today: A guard who can put up a .555 TS% and who had more steals than turnovers is a completely useless commodity even at $1.6M, and we’re better off with a guy who is not good at anything.

    62. Similar across the board.

      I guess that 38 point edge in WS48 must be some sort of statistical anomaly then.

      Which player do you want, the guy with the .138 WS48, or the .100 WS48? Would you say those two players had similar seasons?

    63. I think if Randle can work on his outside shot, he could become a rotation guard for us, at least as good as Grant – and cheaper I believe.

      And I’d still love a Rubio trade. I think he’s about to turn the corner, but the only thing we have to offer is Willy and that doesn’t seem like a good idea.

    64. I guess that 38 point edge in WS48 must be some sort of statistical anomaly then.

      Which player do you want, the guy with the .138 WS48, or the .100 WS48? Would you say those two players had similar seasons?

      I guess you don’t understand similarities in per 100 possession stats. You’re framing an argument I never made. Never said Baker had a better overall rookie season than Grant. I said they had similar ones and that I thought Baker showed more improvement in his handle and decision making as a PG than I saw from Grant.

    65. the other thing that needs to be taken into account comparing Baker and Grant is that this past season Baker was trapped in this ridiculous offensive system and Grant was freed from it. The Triangle is the anti-D’Antoni system in pretty much every way. It loses when spread PNR wins. It destroys asset value whereas D’Antoni’s players rise in value. Players hate the Triangle and love playing SSOL.

      Conceptually it’s semi-interesting to me. The Triangle emphasizes that each player on the floor is interchangeable, everyone dribbles/passes/shoots regardless of whether they’re good at it or not. Remember Sam Dalembert and his 21.9 TOV% when trying to throw all these passes he just can’t throw?

      SSOL on the other hand identifies players’ strengths and pretty much has them stick to it. PG penetrates, screeners roll, other dudes shoot. If you’re not the roll man and you can’t shoot, you won’t play.

      I can see the Triangle working if you have 5 dudes that are just good at everything, like the Warriors. But currently our shooters can’t really dribble, our dribblers can’t really shoot, and we don’t have anyone that passes. And no one can defend.

    66. Jerian grant could shoot like Otto Porter and pass like John Wall and reub still wouldn’t like him because he fell down like three times

    67. Jerian grant could shoot like Otto Porter and pass like John Wall and reub still wouldn’t like him because he fell down like three times

      But reub is reub, it’s annoying seeing actual posters do the mental gymnastics necessary to argue a 24 year old who put up a .118 WS48 is worthless at $1.6m.

    68. the list of players who put up a negative ws48 at age 23 who went on to be ok players is not too long but it happens… usually they put up a few good useful years and then flame out…

      norris cole
      will bynum
      trenton hassell
      john lucas iii
      smush parker
      bobby phills
      deshawn stevenson
      kevin edwards
      flip murray
      lindsey hunter

      and then you have justin holiday and john starks popping up on the list… the odds are long for a guy like baker but i think there’s enough there for a second look.. if his shooting becomes passable he’ll be an ok bench player…

    69. I would rather have the lottery ticket than Grant. We don’t agree on that is all.

      No, it’s more than that. You’re not looking at Grant holistically. You’re arguing that he is essentially worthless (not worth a roster spot and 1.5 million) because he can’t run an offense and shoot 3s off pindowns. To whatever extent those criticisms are accurate it’s ingnoring the value of what Grant can, and has, done. Even assuming Grant wouldn’t have been as good on the Knicks as he was on the Bulls he would have outproduced his contract, which is what a team carrying a bunch of expensive unproductive players desperately needs. If Ron Baker can shoot and finish, what do you have? Jerian Grant. The difference between the two is a million bucks.

    70. The other thing that seems off about the “I’d rather have a lottery ticket” argument is that you can literally BUY one of those lottery tickets. You do not have to give up anything to get them, other than the money between James Dolan’s couch cushions.

    71. No, it’s more than that. You’re not looking at Grant holistically. You’re arguing that he is essentially worthless (not worth a roster spot and 1.5 million) because he can’t run an offense and shoot 3s off pindowns. To whatever extent those criticisms are accurate it’s ingnoring the value of what Grant can, and has, done. Even assuming Grant wouldn’t have been as good on the Knicks as he was on the Bulls he would have outproduced his contract, which is what a team carrying a bunch of expensive unproductive players desperately needs. If Ron Baker can shoot and finish, what do you have? Jerian Grant. The difference between the two is a million bucks.

      I’m arguing that he would never have played the role he’s playing in Chicago in New York or on a whole bunch of other teams where PGs are expected be primary ball handlers and I don’t think he has the skills to be an effective 2 guard long term.

      I was hyperbolic in my initial post regarding his worth in suggesting that he was wholly worthless, but I would rather have 2nd round pick and a year of Justin Holiday than Grant. Imo Grant’s presence on the Knicks roster wouldn’t have altered our needs heading into the draft, because I don’t believe he has the skills to be a starting 1 or 2, which is how I feel about Baker even though I like him more than Grant.

    72. I can see the Triangle working if you have 5 dudes that are just good at everything, like the Warriors. But currently our shooters can’t really dribble, our dribblers can’t really shoot, and we don’t have anyone that passes. And no one can defend.

      That sounds like coaching problem more than a scheme problem.

    73. Would you trade the 8th pick to Sacramento for 10 and Malachi Richardson?

    74. i was of the mindset that we should try to move Lee and re-sign holiday to replace him because of the Lee’s age

      Trade Lee for Rubio, move Holiday to starting SG, trade Melo for Crowder+.

      KP, WH, RR, JH, and JC is you starting 5.

      That should be a good team defensively (especially if WH improves defensively), but will have trouble scoring.

      Trade the #8 pick, move down, draft Justin Jackson, and a scoring SG with whatever other pick you get for #8. Justin Jackson eventually takes over SF whenever he’s ready and is your second scorer. Crowder off the bench at either SF or PF. Then we need a high level SG unless a draft pick works out especially well.

    75. I would rather pick up Donovan Mitchell than Jackson in any trade down.

    76. I would strongly consider that. except, I have no idea who Malachi Richardson is

    77. IMO, Courtney Lee is a lot better than Grant.

      Did you watch his 1,028 MP this year? I didn’t, but even if I had, I wouldn’t be able to tell you how much better he was at not turning the ball over (1.3 fewer TOV per 100 possessions) and shooting (8.5 fewer misses per 100 shots). He nearly doubled his 3PA%, more-than-doubled his corner 3PA% and halved his shots at the rim. He became a vastly different offensive player in Chicago, mostly likely because they had three ball-dominant starters commanding him to stay parked in the corner.

      If you think you saw Jerian Grant in his purest form in 2015-16, then sure, yeah, whatever, okay. But odds are that you didn’t watch all 301 of his FGA.

    78. “Jerian grant could shoot like Otto Porter and pass like John Wall and reub still wouldn’t like him because he fell down like three times”

      Yes, but he doesn’t.

    79. Have any of you seen video of O.G. before he got hurt? He looked like the dominant defensive SF that we have craved forever. He has been compared to Kawhi. He was great at playing multiple positions on defense and his perimeter defense was exquisite. I think that he should be considered in any discussion if we believe that he is fairly healthy.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2hdJwfwIyNA
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tOX0u7T4Kbo

      Oh, and his 3 point shooting wasn’t bad either.

    80. Have to say this is the most depressed I’ve been about the Knicks probably since Isiah. I don’t even feel like arguing with people here. Just seems like this offseason is going to be a repeat of the 2015 offseason minus the high lotto pick, which was pretty much the only redeeming quality of that offseason except Lopez kind of. The whole KP conflict is just more evidence that the arrogance and narcissism in the front office are even more powerful than the greed. I’m having to accept that no progress will happen while Phil Jackson is here, and he’s not going anywhere for another two years at least.

    81. OG, KP and Willy would seem to be a terrific young front line for a long, long time.
      He would add to the toughness that we sorely lack too.
      Trade for Rubio, draft OG (if healthy) and use our second round picks on Sindarius Thornwell, Diallo, Josh Hart, Kostja Mushidi, Frank Mason, Frank Jackson, PJ Dozier, Derrick White, Tyler Dorsey or Kobi Simmons.

    82. Ugh, can we forget about this fantasy of trading Lee for Rubio when Minn already has a better, younger, cheaper SG?

      Minn may have had prior interest in Lee, but:
      a) that was for just money, not money plus assets
      b) that was before they knew what they had in LaVine, who had been shuffled between pg and sg his first couple of years, but then settled in at SG last year, and is only freaking 22!

    83. Have to say this is the most depressed I’ve been about the Knicks probably since Isiah. I don’t even feel like arguing with people here. Just seems like this offseason is going to be a repeat of the 2015 offseason minus the high lotto pick, which was pretty much the only redeeming quality of that offseason except Lopez kind of. The whole KP conflict is just more evidence that the arrogance and narcissism in the front office are even more powerful than the greed. I’m having to accept that no progress will happen while Phil Jackson is here, and he’s not going anywhere for another two years at least.

      The only thing I’m worried about is whether Phil returns after his two years are up. If he’s here for just two years, I can live with that. They’ll probably be bad enough that they’ll have some younger players and then they will be able to do a normal rebuild when Phil leaves. Now, if he stays past two years, that could be an issue.

    84. As for Jerian Grant, even though I like him, this draft is so deep that I’ll take the 2nd rounder and draft Frank Mason or Thornwell or Jordan Bell or any one of 10-20 other guys who are already better than Grant.

    85. Phil will stay here as long as Dolan continues to pay him 12 mil a year for being a part time GM, whether that;s for 2 more years or 10 more years.. Phil is not a dumb man.

    86. Two more seasons of low-30’s wins ought to be enough to make Phil sick of doing this job.

    87. Did you watch his 1,028 MP this year? I didn’t, but even if I had, I wouldn’t be able to tell you how much better he was at not turning the ball over (1.3 fewer TOV per 100 possessions) and shooting (8.5 fewer misses per 100 shots). He nearly doubled his 3PA%, more-than-doubled his corner 3PA% and halved his shots at the rim.

      I understand why most stats guys are very anti-visual evaluations. It’s for very good reason.

      The problem is that we don’t have stats for everything and the models we do have use very different weights for each factor. So depending on which model we are looking at we can come to very different conclusions.

      Beyond that, there’s data we don’t have.

      For example, there is no stat that tells me how many times a guy was open in a pressure situation but was afraid to shoot and deferred. Sometimes you can see that.

      You can sometimes tell the difference between when a guy misses a free throw and it was a random event and when he missed partly because he was scared to death under fire.

      You can see who pumps up at critical junctures in games and has an impact and who defers and gets passive.

      You can tell the difference between the typical TO and one that occurs at the end end of the game when the other team is making a serious run and some players are starting to panic and freeze up.

      These kinds of secondary visual evaluation are not perfect, but trying to evaluate them is better than ignoring them altogether. Coaches see these things day in and day out at practice and in games. That’s why they make some of the decisions they make. They know these players really well. In fact, Boxscore Plus Minus uses “minutes played per game” as a catch all factor on the assumption that coaches know things about players that are not in the stats and it impacts their minute decisions.

      You could the difference between Grant and Lee a few minutes into the playoffs this year. Grant was in a coma…

    88. He should be fired, but since he’s here for 2 more years then I like the focus on culture focused vet signings and building through the draft which for now seems to be the plan again. I hope he learned a valuable lesson last summer and sticks to it this time.

      Agreed on both points. He should be fired, but since he won’t be, all we can do is hope that he learns from his many mistakes for the next two years and then someone else better takes over in two years. All we have is hope, so we might as well hold on to it!

    89. If Phil just avoids giving out horrible long-term contracts to mediocre players (I’m looking in your direction, Jrue Holiday) and doesn’t make any obvious blunders I’ll take that as a sign of improvement. I’m not worried about whether or not he makes great moves. He probably won’t. Just don’t make terrible moves. That’s all I ask.

    90. @94 Is there a stat for numbers of times fell down? FS48?

    91. He probably won’t. Just don’t make terrible moves. That’s all I ask.

      You know it’s coming. Rudy Gay, Dion Waiters, Jrue Holiday. It is going to happen.

    92. As far as I know, Dion Waiters used to study in Syracuse’s College of Visual Performing Arts.

      He may be good at triangles.

    93. But seriously, I would be very happy if we acquired Rubio and Tucker while drafting OG if healthy plus Thornwell. Our defense and toughness would be light years better.

    94. Unbelievably, it took Brooklyn 5 years to even start thinking about building correctly. They could be decent in a few years under the new leadership, and if the MSG clown act doesn’t pull it together by then, I’ll be taking my 2 nosebleeds-a-year business to the land of bearded baristos.

    95. The hard thing for me to fathom is how people think that the Knicks’ demonstrated M.O. (maxing Melo, trading for Rose, signing Noah, etc.) could possibly work out.

      Teams like the Spurs do virtually everything right and still get swept in the playoffs. Teams like the Warriors had a guy making less than half a max contract, scoring 30 PPG on .670 TS% and still got beat by a one-man wrecking crew putting up maybe the best single series performance of my lifetime, last season. The Rockets had games this season in which they scored something like 130 or 140 points without taking a “bad” midrange shot.

      Even if you do rebuild correctly, you have to hope that other teams aren’t following the same smart strategies that you are and snatching up your undervalued draftees, and that you’re ending up with more Stephs than Jimmers, who all, by the way, manage to peak in the same window, and then other teams don’t realize their value and you’re able to lock them into a team-friendly deal because other teams don’t have their shit together w/r/t win share valuation. Oh, and then everyone’s happy because you hired good front office people and good coaching who don’t alienate the players or harass female employees or fuck ex-teammates’ ex-wives.

      It’s a losing bet.

    96. The only thing I’m worried about is whether Phil returns after his two years are up. If he’s here for just two years, I can live with that. They’ll probably be bad enough that they’ll have some younger players and then they will be able to do a normal rebuild when Phil leaves. Now, if he stays past two years, that could be an issue.

      I guess I keep myself sane by imagining scenarios where the front office is forced to change either in terms of its personnel or in terms of its way of building the team, but I don’t see htat happening near term.

      And as far as Phil doing damage… Pretty sure we all know what’s coming. We’re gonna do 2015 over again but this time we won’t have a $30m cap jump to make nearly any contract look good, so the contracts we sign are gonna be traditional Knicks signings. Traditional mediocre team free agent signings. The defensive stopper will be our new Jared Jeffries. We’ll spend our $20-$30m (depending on if we can dump Melo) on older guys who will be mildly overpaid their first 1-2 years and then badly overpaid their final two years.

      So yeah, we might have a few picks in the 7-12 range if Phil doesn’t trade them, which he probably won’t, but the optimistic outcome of that kind of rebuild, when you don’t supplement your draft picks with other rebuilding tactics and you don’t tank, is you end up like what the Hornets are right now.

    97. Jerian Grant’s like having $5 or $6 to buy dinner with. Sure, I can get some fast food, or I can swing by the Cherokee Casino and Lodge and play some blackjack (2nd round pick). I’ll probably lose (but have some fleeting fun), but there is that small chance that I win $50 and dine in style!

    98. Jerian Grant’s like having $5 or $6 to buy dinner with. Sure, I can get some fast food, or I can swing by the Cherokee Casino and Lodge and play some blackjack (2nd round pick). I’ll probably lose (but have some fleeting fun), but there is that small chance that I win $50 and dine in style!

      I get what you are saying but you are also overlooking that the cheap fast food you bought gives you a chance to win the grand prize of their monopoly sweepstakes.

      There is actually a chance that Jerian develops and becomes a very good player.

    99. @107
      So, you’re saying the chance that Grant becomes very good is about equal to the chance of winning the Mickey D’s Monopoly Grand Prize?
      :-)

    100. Jerian Grant’s like having $5 or $6 to buy dinner with. Sure, I can get some fast food, or I can swing by the Cherokee Casino and Lodge and play some blackjack (2nd round pick). I’ll probably lose (but have some fleeting fun), but there is that small chance that I win $50 and dine in style!

      Yeah, but if you’re gambling away your food money, you’re probably gonna die.

    101. Jerian Grant was about league average last year, for 1.5 million dollars. He didn’t play a ton, but that’s a lot better than a value meal at McDonald’s. I don’t understand why so many of you can’t wrap your minds around that. Because he played 50 really shitty minutes in the playoffs? Guess what, we didn’t go to the playoffs, partly because we spent 36 million dollars assembling an atrocious backcourt.

    102. You don’t have to give up a decent player on a rookie contract to get the #44 pick in the draft. You can buy that shit. Let’s put the argument “I’d rather have the draft pick” to rest, because for fuck’s sake you can buy the goddamn draft pick and it costs you nothing except JD & The Straight Shot merch money.

    103. Which player do you want, the guy with the .138 WS48, or the .100 WS48? Would you say those two players had similar seasons?

      Given how few minutes Grant played, I’m not sure this is a real difference. In addition, the teams number of wins goes into the formula for WS, and Grant’s team had more wins than Holiday’s so his WS will have to be higher for the same performance at the same position. In general, bad teams make players look worse than they are and good teams make them look better than they are. So I agree, the stats are basically a wash.

      Many people hate the eye test, but the stats aren’t enough to have statistical significance, you have to use it.

    104. I wonder if Isaiah’s defense could be so bad that the C’s are better off without him.

    105. If WS48 shows that Jerian Grant was a better player last season than Lee or Holiday then WS48 is the Jerian Grant of stats.

    106. Is it possible that small, ball dominant point guards might just be a detriment to winning basketball?

    107. Counterpoint – You used to be able to just buy second round picks but I don’t think we’ve actually done that in a few years and I think this is bc teams are starting to value all of their picks, even second rounders, much more than they used to. We bought them during the Donnie and grunwald days but I don’t think we’ve done that recently.

    108. What Phil Jackson should have done with his coaching hire was go grab Frank Vogel or some other defensive minded coach. A defensive minded coach would have had zero problem implementing the triangle and Kurt Rambis might have actually had some value as the offensive coordinator and resident prick. Hiring a guy with an offensive identity already just confused everybody (even though the Knicks offense had some beautiful moments early in the season). Defense is how you build a culture; a good defense communicates and holds everyone accountable for one another. And then you can triangle all you want because your defense keeps you in games.

      OG Anunoby would be a great pick if we could land another 1st. He’s more Luol Deng than Kawhi Leonard but that’s still a great player to grab in the middle of the first. And he’s the same age as Fox, Jackson, and Ball.

      My “make the Knicks a playoff team in one summer” moves would be to trade Melo in a three team deal for cap space, land Rubio and then sign Johnathan Simmons to the Joakim Noah contract. Draft Ntilikina and let him become your SG of the future, especially if you find a way to get Anunoby. Ntilikina, Anunoby, and KP would be a defensive powerhouse.

      If Melo and Rose are gone Courtney Lee averages a career high in PPG.

    109. You don’t have to give up a decent player on a rookie contract to get the #44 pick in the draft. You can buy that shit.

      Yeah, Patrick McCaw, who’s starting in the western conference finals for, quite possibly, the greatest team ever, was bought, as the 38th pick, for $2.4 million.

    110. @120 I like your plan. How do we get a fairly high mid first round pick to select OG? Trade O’Quinn?

    111. It could be different this year with regard to buying draft choices. Under the new CBA, teams get two more roster spots they can fill and assign to D-League. I don’t know how teams will fill these spots, but certain players who might not be drafted because they are too green, could maybe now be drafted with the thought that the team can control them while training. This could make second round draft picks more valuable.

    112. In other words, teams might have sold their second round picks in the past because they figured they would just cut them anyway. Now they probably don’t have to cut them. They can pay them $75,000 a year and see what happens in D league with them.

    113. No one is trading a shot at OG – a player universally seen as a very high upside pick with some risk due to injury, for KOQ.

      I’d love to get him. But I think you’re looking at Lee and/or KOQ AND taking on a terrible deal. But the teams in OG range don’t have a lot of terrible deals – taking Ellis or Jefferson from Indiana or Turner from Portland could get you in at 15 or 18 but that’s probably too low…

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