Knicks Morning News (2017.04.05)

  • [SNY Knicks] Knicks, Carmelo take care of Bulls
    (Tuesday, April 04, 2017 10:38:07 PM)

    The Knicks put forth a well balanced offensive attacked Tuesday night to defeat the Bulls,100-91.

  • [SNY Knicks] Carmelo preparing for tell-all meeting with Jackson
    (Tuesday, April 04, 2017 5:09:03 PM)

    With five games remaining in the season, Carmelo Anthony’s tenure in New York could be coming to a close.

  • [SNY Knicks] Daily News Live: Patrick Ewing hired as Georgetown’s head coach
    (Tuesday, April 04, 2017 10:00:08 AM)

    Knicks great Patrick Ewing has been hired as the next coach of Georgetown men’s basketball.

  • [NY Newsday] Kristaps Porzingis sits out Knicks’ win over Bulls, but his time to shine is coming
    (Tuesday, April 04, 2017 10:44:00 PM)

    Kristaps Porzingis switched places with Carmelo Anthony and sat out Tuesday night with a sore lower back. Porzingis could soon be switching places with Anthony as the face of the Knicks.

  • [NY Newsday] Knicks Insider podcast: Analyzing Carmelo Anthony’s cryptic comments about his future
    (Tuesday, April 04, 2017 12:07:00 PM)

    Could Carmelo Anthony’s time with the Knicks be up after this season?

  • [NYTimes] Russell Westbrook Ties Oscar Robertson’s Season Triple-Double Record
    (Wednesday, April 05, 2017 2:08:07 AM)

    Westbrook clinched his 41st triple-double early in the third quarter against the Milwaukee Bucks on Tuesday.

  • [NYTimes] U.N.C.’s Joel Berry II on Tar Heels Win
    (Tuesday, April 04, 2017 3:10:04 PM)

    Joel Berry, a point guard for the North Carolina Tar Heels, spoke after guiding his team to victory over Gonzaga in the N.C.A.A. basketball championship in Arizona. He led all scorers with 22 points.

  • [NYPost] Two ex-Knicks in Derrick Rose trade finding niche in Chicago
    (Tuesday, April 04, 2017 8:24:48 PM)

    Joakim Noah and Derrick Rose are both out for the season, and look like glaring Knicks gaffes. Meanwhile, Robin Lopez and Jerian Grant — both traded to Chicago for Rose — have been exactly what the Knicks have missed: A reliable big man and an athletic young reserve. And both were back in the Garden…

  • [NYPost] Little-used Knick comes up big in unfathomable win
    (Tuesday, April 04, 2017 6:38:21 PM)

    Didn’t see that one coming. For two months the Knicks have been in a free fall from self-proclaimed superteam to lottery nightmare. And Tuesday, there they were starting the likes of Maurice Ndour against streaking and desperate Chicago. Naturally they cruised to a 100-91 win before a crowd of 19,812 at the Garden. “It’s funny,…

  • [NYPost] Knicks leave door slightly open for Derrick Rose
    (Tuesday, April 04, 2017 6:01:34 PM)

    Jeff Hornacek was noncommittal whether Derrick Rose will be re-signed after his torn meniscus is repaired, but the Knicks coach didn’t rule it out. In the cruelest of ironies, the Bulls were at the Garden on Tuesday and ex-Bulls Rose and Joakim Noah weren’t in the arena. Noah was suspended for failing a drug test…

  • [NYPost] How Georgetown job could lead Patrick Ewing back to Knicks
    (Tuesday, April 04, 2017 4:54:12 PM)

    Patrick Ewing once made the jump from Georgetown to the Knicks. Don’t be shocked if history repeats. For all the nostalgia Wednesday will bring, when Georgetown officially introduces Ewing as its new coach at a news conference on campus, there’s evidence to suggest the Knicks legend hasn’t given up on his goal of becoming an…

  • [NYPost] What grade-shaming dad wants on his next NBA sign
    (Tuesday, April 04, 2017 3:36:29 PM)

    A couple national television appearances and $5,000 later, a boy’s grade-shaming father already has a third NBA trip in mind after he called out his son’s failing report card at two games in recent weeks. The dad — who requested he be referred to as Thomas’ father out of “love” for his 12-year-old son — said…

  • [NYDN] Kristaps Porzingis sits out Knicks win over Bulls with back pain
    (Tuesday, April 04, 2017 9:29:10 PM)

    Carmelo Anthony’s back pain transferred to Kristaps Porzingis.

  • [NYDN] Maurice Ndour makes most of first NBA start in Knicks’ win
    (Tuesday, April 04, 2017 7:56:28 PM)

    Making his first NBA start and playing in front of his mother for the first time, Maurice Ndour capitalized with a double-double.

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    Mike Kurylo

    Mike Kurylo is the founder and editor of KnickerBlogger.net. His book on the 2012 Knicks, "We’ll Always Have Linsanity," is on sale now. Follow him on twitter (@KnickerBlogger).

    155 thoughts to “Knicks Morning News (2017.04.05)”

    1. Watching the Knicks and Kings fuck up this #tank is like a microcosm of the last decade+ with these two franchises. Seriously WTF SMH.

      Re: Carmelo – I am not sure what he meant by “all the chips will be on the table” in the exit meeting with Phil. That feels less like a “OK Phil, I’ll waive my NTC and let you do a rebuild” and a lot more like he is expecting the culmination of a 3-year long power struggle in which Melo says he’s not giving up the no-trade clause and that he’s opting into his player option, and that he has the power and the inclination to submarine Phil’s legacy — and so Phil should leave.

      Honestly, both of them should leave.

      Didn’t watch much of the game last night, but I was happy to see NDour look (in the box score at least) like he belonged in the game. That dude has some long arms and what seems in general like a solid set of basketball tools. It’d be nice to turn him into a longer/better rebounding/better rim-protecting version of Lance Thomas.

    2. poker face. Melo will tell Phil, you opt in, I’m not waiving NTC. You might have so many rings but you have zero playoff appearances as a Knicks GM and I have a 54 win live and die by the three offense back when you were smoking sage in Montana

      Knicks problem is not offense but defense. fire Phil, defensive coach buddy Rambis goes too

    3. Watching the Knicks and Kings fuck up this #tank is like a microcosm of the last decade+ with these two franchises. Seriously WTF SMH.

      Pretty much. Luckily, at the moment, they’re fucking their shit up more than the Knicks are fucking their shit up, which is about apt, as I think the Kings literally are the worst franchise in the NBA, saving the Knicks from that dubious distinction.

      I am not sure what he meant by “all the chips will be on the table” in the exit meeting with Phil.

      If ever in doubt about something Melo says, always bet on it meaning “I am staying put.”

    4. Knicks problem is not offense but defense. fire Phil, defensive coach buddy Rambis goes too

      Why would you get rid of the person who knows more about defense than anyone? The Knicks defense has nothing to do with him…for…reasons.

    5. Actually the Lakers messing up their tank is so much worse than us or the Kings. Worst thing that happens to either us or the Kings is that we move down a spot or 2 in this draft. The Lakers though? They are now more likely than not (53.1% chance) to lose both this year’s pick AND the 2019 1st rounder because if they fall out of the top 3 they lose this year’s pick to PHX and for some reason lose 2019’s 1st rounder to Orlando. How they let themselves get tied with PHX in the win column is beyond me. It would be an absolute calamity to that franchise to lose what will probably be 1 top 3 pick and another lottery pick because they can’t #tank correctly.

      They should literally run out a starting lineup of Mozgov, MWP, Thomas Robinson, Brewer, and Nick Young and say they’re working on ball handling skills for next year.

    6. I dunno, Phoenix is doing some historic tanking to get to this point. But yes, I do agree that protecting this pick is huge for the Lakers and that they should be working harder to hold on to #2.

    7. This is not meant to relitigate the Rose trade at all, but under the radar Robin Lopez has been pretty bad this year. Career low TS, basically career low rebounding percentage, 60th out of 70 qualified centers in RPM, below average WS/48 (0.084), near the bottom of qualified centers in WP48 (0.059).

      Crazy that the best player in that trade just might be Justin Holiday and whoever is picked at ~#45 in the this draft.

      Speaking of Holiday – I think he is a no-brainer re-sign with early-bird level $ this summer. Hopefully we draft someone like DeAaron Fox or Ntilikina — our backcourt defense with one of those two, Holiday, Lee, and Baker would be sooooo much better than this year.

    8. From the normally quite smart Chris Ryan, speaking about the Wolves…

      There have been some bright spots, like Andrew Wiggins making the leap

      I’m sure there is another example, but damn, does any player get as much undeserved good press as Andrew Wiggins? You want to argue “he’s young enough to get better?” Go right ahead. You want to argue that he’s already made the leap? You’re nuts.

    9. Speaking of Holiday – I think he is a no-brainer re-sign with early-bird level $ this summer.

      It’d be a good enough move for the Knicks (although, it’s not like Holiday is having some amazing season, so it’s not like it would be such an incredible move, especially since he’ll be 28 next year, so he might not even have much room to grow on his decent season, but MLE for a decent player is sadly a bargain nowadays), but the issue is:

      A. Can he beat that on the open market?
      and
      B. How do you tell him to take “just” the Early Bird when the Knicks will have cap space to give him more? And if the Knicks are going to use up all of their cap space and then go over it to re-sign him then, well, that’s pretty dumb, too.

    10. agree that we shouldn’t be looking to use up all our cap space to sign players, but we could make asymmetric trades that would eat up some of that space.

      I don’t know why, because he’s barely ever given interviews, but I sort of get the impression that Holiday likes it here. And I’m not sure he will get more than MLE-level money given how comparatively little cap space there is out there. He’s probably an average 3/D-type guy. If he gets a bigger offer then ~$8M/year we should just let him go.

    11. Last night’s win is why we can’t have nice things.

      I’ve never been a tank guy, but why are they winning this late in a lost season?
      I know they think they have a core of young guys would they can build upon next season, but come on.

    12. The Knicks will make re-signing Holiday a priority if they really want Jrue.

      Jrue would have to take a significant pay cut to sign with the Knicks. In other words, Jrue almost certainly will not be signing with the Knicks.

    13. Last night’s win is why we can’t have nice things.

      It was bad, but they were already in poor position to catch up to the Sixers and Magic (due to their other dumb wins recently). The real worry was the Kings, and the Kings luckily are just as dumb as the Knicks, so that looks like the Kings will probably remain ahead of the Knicks (which really means behind them).

    14. Justin Holiday is this year’s Lance Thomas.

      A 5 year veteran player who is not exactly good at anything have a mediocre yet career season and is rewarded with a long-term contract because.

      He is the type of player that don’t move the needle at all and doesn’t have almost any upside.

      There are worse ways of spending money, but I rather try someone else.

    15. Honestly, we won the game last night because the Bulls’ effort was piss poor. Starting Ndour and Baker is about as bad as the Knicks could be, KP not playing made it worse and they even got a terrible Carmelo game as the cherry on top of that. The Bulls simply didn’t give a shit and got outworked by Ndour, KOQ, Kuz, Baker and basically everybody else that stepped foot on the floor for the Knicks. I can’t really be upset about a win that happened because Chicago decided to take shrooms a couple of hours before tip off.

      I think Holiday stays. The Knicks are the first team in his career to give him a role with consistent minutes every night and he’s had his best season as a pro here and I agree with Frank that I get the sense he just likes it here.

      I’m sure there is another example, but damn, does any player get as much undeserved good press as Andrew Wiggins? You want to argue “he’s young enough to get better?” Go right ahead. You want to argue that he’s already made the leap? You’re nuts.

      I read that this morning too and couldn’t really believe it. I think Wiggins’ shot creation is a real talent, but he hasn’t turned into much more than a high volume, average-ish efficiency scorer, which is what he was last year too. There’s no leap that has been made and the fact that the Wolves defense is utter garbage speaks to that lack of development as they seem destined for a 33-34 win season, which is way below what you would have pegged them for after watching the end of last season. I think it goes to show that Mitchell didn’t do half as bad a job as people made out.

    16. We should be pissed off at the Bulls for playing like crap, not us. We have been doing a reasonably solid tanking job. Can’t lose every game, right. Melo hasn’t been playing much, Rose – who was playing pretty decent for a while there – is out, no KP last night, playing the young guys, not playing KOQ as much as he deserves… The guys that play should and do play hard. You don’t expect them to play like Tony in Blue Chips, do ya? Whether we finish 7 or 8 we’ll still get Frank, who is what we need.

    17. Today’s thoughts:
      – <3 Lance Stephenson <3
      – I wouldn't look too much into Robin Lopez but it is interesting. I think they just built a terrible roster construction/ floor spacing and Hoiberg may not be the man for the job.
      – Sasha only getting 4 minutes last night is TERRIBLE. These are the games he should be playing. What other reason do you have this scrub on the roster. #triangle
      – Wiggins…I've had this argument on this board the past week and time will tell. He's definitely improved and made a leap with his 3pt shot but it hasn't necessarily registered into his TS% because his 2pt shot selection has been worse this year. His problem is inconsistency, I think another offseason under THIBS will help. There really aren't many other young wings out there with his potential, he probably won't ever be that #1 superstar but he still can be a very ++ player. And again not the best team with regards to floor spacing and other scoring threats. And they were projected to win 40 games this year so 33 isn't horrific.
      – Please fire Kurt Rambis

    18. I’d let Holiday walk, he’s almost certainly not going to be worth whatever we pay him. We’ll probably give him a 4 year deal though.

    19. – Wiggins…I’ve had this argument on this board the past week and time will tell. He’s definitely improved and made a leap with his 3pt shot but it hasn’t necessarily registered into his TS% because his 2pt shot selection has been worse this year. His problem is inconsistency, I think another offseason under THIBS will help. There really aren’t many other young wings out there with his potential, he probably won’t ever be that #1 superstar but he still can be a very ++ player. And again not the best team with regards to floor spacing and other scoring threats. And they were projected to win 40 games this year so 33 isn’t horrific.

      But that’s the thing – you’re bullish on Wiggins and even you’re not saying that he “made the leap” this year, right? How in the world then does the Executive Editor of The Ringer just toss that into an article like it’s a given? Wiggins couldn’t buy the free publicity he’s been given by NBA writers in his career so far. Remember the “Will he “only” be Carmelo Anthony?” article from last season? Yikes!

    20. I’d let Holiday walk, he’s almost certainly not going to be worth whatever we pay him. We’ll probably give him a 4 year deal though.

      If he takes the MLE, that’s sadly cheap for a decent player like Holiday. But yeah, dude’s turning 28 next year. You’re likely locking in what he did this season, nothing better. That’s worth the MLE, but as you note, it’ll probably be for four years, which is probably not giving you any excess value.

    21. A lot of NBA writers just repeat shit they’ve heard in the lamestream media. For whatever reason, Minny is a trendy team, and it’s young players get good press. And it’s not like the Ringer writers are particularly analytic. I heard Kevin O’Connor describe Zach Lavine as a good player who doesn’t help your team win on their NBA podcast this week. You’re so close to getting it buddy. Think it through.

      With Wiggins, he seems to have improved his 3pt shot, but 3 point shooting is pretty variable, so has he made a leap? If he’d missed 7 more threes he’d be shooting 33% from behind the arc and would you consider that a leap?

    22. Any leap for Wiggins is going to come from adding playmaking, rebounding or any kind of meaningful consistent defense to his game. Even if he improves his efficiency as a scorer he won’t be the impact player many seem to want to already declare him.

    23. Yeah, for a guy who has the ball all the time, his assists are shockingly low.

    24. thank god the kings won… i think catching the sixers is going to be tough but i feel a lot better about #6 than #7…

    25. No I wouldn’t say he has made the leap and haven’t read that particular article.

      And yeah it certainly is possible his 3pt% increase this year is just variance. But I think it is nice to see that he is more comfortable/confident to be taking them. It’s interesting he has taken less corner 3’s this year and when he does take them he is shooting at a worse clip.

      He has greatly reduced the number of shots he has taken 10 feet in and at the rim and instead has taken more long 2’s which is unfortunate.

      edit- his assist numbers are low but if you watch him he is actually a pretty good passer

    26. edit- his assist numbers are low but if you watch him he is actually a pretty good passer

      I agree, which is what makes his low assist numbers extremely weird and unsettling. He has become a better passer, but he needs to be more willing.

    27. Keep Holiday and get his prime years.
      Draft Frank or an anklebreaker.
      Screw Melo.
      Sign PJ Tucker.
      Done.

    28. Wiggins is shooting one mor e3 per game and his %is @36 rather than the 30-31 of his first two seasons. His usage is up a bit. he takes one more three per game. His turnovers are slightly down. His points are up from barely over 20 to 23. Otherwise everything is more or less the same. I think the PPG must be the deal (duh). 23 is solidly moving towards 25 which is ruff rydah/defense tilter/shot creator deluxe territory. Other than that I don’t see it. His team still sucks, albeit not as much as last year, and he plays with KAT. I know it is a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy type of question but are there examples of teams with two guys are legit excellent players that suck for more than a year?

    29. I also don’t think Rubio is as good or valuable to the Wolves as people seem to think. That’s just my busto theorem though.

    30. I liked that NDour stressed the importance of defense in his post game interview. It seems that he and Baker have their heads screwed on right.

    31. A reason to keep Holiday is to establish some sort of continuity on this team. We can’t turn over the roster every single year, then have to teach not just that damned Triangle but also the tendencies of teammates to different players every year.

      Also, Holiday tries hard on defense, is reasonably good at it, and doesn’t do stupid stuff on offense. Spending about 7% of the cap on someone like him is reasonable IMHO. Rotation players cost at least that much.

      We could troll the D-league etc. for guys like that but there’s always the chance that you miss, and then you’re playing Sasha Vujacic 18 min/game instead of Holiday.

    32. I also don’t think Rubio is as good or valuable to the Wolves as people seem to think. That’s just my busto theorem though.

      I’m not sure how much value Rubio would have to the Knicks because we probably wouldn’t use him correctly, but I’m pretty sure if Minny didn’t have Rubio we’d be battling them in the tank race.

    33. continuity is good… but you have to have it with good players… we had our ‘continuity’ signing with thomas last year and it’s working out horribly so far… and holiday would mimic that signing almost to a T…

      you don’t reward players who’ve had their first passable year at age 28…. you let those guys go and fill it with players you think can replicate that…. holiday is entirely replaceable…

    34. I don’t get it. Like I said last night, players and coaches are going to try to win games (coaches may not if told otherwise and have job security; Hornacek may not have either)- so the best you can do to lose is play the younguns and hope to gain experience and losses.

      We won playing FIVE first year players (Ndour, Kuz, Willy, Baker, Chasson), and only two vets. The Bulls suck. This may have been a good win.

      How bad do you want us to be to tank? Is there a place that’s so bad that the gains from a Fultz are not enough because the rest of your team sucks so bad and for so long? There are extremes to everything, and the Sixers may never climb out of theirs.

    35. @ 35 – yeah bringing back one player, Lance, was “continuity.” Almost all of our roster was new this year. Melo, KP, Lance and Sasha were the only continuity from last year.

      I def think we should bring back Holiday. Not everyone has to be 23 years old or younger in order to have a young team. Holiday plays defense and will be had for relatively cheap. And yes he’s part of the continuity we desperately need. Its pretty obvious to me that we actually have a decent crew of role players we just need some good star players who buy in to join them. Its ok to have a mix of vets and youth while rebuilding.

      Its very hard though to judge any move we make until we know for sure Melo and Rose are gone.

    36. Crazy that the best player in that trade just might be Justin Holiday and whoever is picked at ~#45 in the this draft.

      This year Grant very well may have been the best of the bunch. He’s also the youngest and cheapest.

      As for keeping Holiday, I’m pretty neutral. It’s unlikely to make or break much for us going forward. I’d give him $3m AAV or so but would be hesitant on anything more than that. There is definitely Lance Thomas potential.

    37. The Knicks have 11 players under contract or with a team option for next season. That’s plenty of continuity.

      If we drop Thomas and/or Lee maybe we can consider Holliday, but we don’t need him for continuity.

    38. that’s exactly why we probably signed lance … and sasha for that matter… because of all the changes with everyone else.. hence the ‘continuity’ signing….

      continuity only has value if the players are actually good… we don’t have too many of those good players around… holiday was passable this year.. but let’s not fool ourselves into thinking that he’s really that good.. he’s just probably better than you expected…

      we have a limited amount of bullets but we do have some cap room and we have 3 draft picks this year…. we cannot afford to waste what we have… i am all for continuity but that’s putting the cart before the horse… you have continuity with actual good players… you have it with bad players.. you get bad results…

    39. I actually think Lance has been pretty good this year when healthy. That is basically the post-ASB period since he had plantar fasciitis in both feet earlier in the year, then broke his face.

      Post ASB he has sported a TS of 55.7 on a usage of 13.4, and his DRB% and TRB% over that period of time would be in the top 20 of SFs in the league. He also tries hard on defense and doesn’t do (that much) stupid stuff on offense. I’m not sure you can expect much more from a guy making $6MM/year.

    40. @38 Respectfully, gimme a break. A guy who almost never gets off the bench and struggles to find his corner to stand in without falling down was the best player in the trade? The second rounder that we acquired for not so young Jerian will run rings around him just as Justin Holiday does now.

    41. IF we can sign holiday for the same deal we have lance I’d do it all day… that’s opens up a trade for Lee who we wouldn’t need

    42. Continuity should not be an argument, I agree with djphan… NBA teams become good teams because they give continuity to good players, not the bad players we have.

      Unless you think Thomas, Baker, NDour, Holiday, Vujacic etc are good enough to be more than end of the bench filler in a good team (hint: they are not, with the exception of maybe Holiday and maaaaaybe Thomas), there’s no value at keeping them instead of picking up new undervalued players and trying to find at least a good one amongst them.

      the 2017 draft will probably make or break the near future of this franchise and I’m scared about it. If the 2017 pick ends up sucking the KP situation gets a lot more complicated and the team is a lot more liable to make stupid moves with the available cap space, and we could very well be in the limbo for the next couple of seasons as a result.

    43. How bad do you want us to be to tank? Is there a place that’s so bad that the gains from a Fultz are not enough because the rest of your team sucks so bad and for so long? There are extremes to everything, and the Sixers may never climb out of theirs.

      The sixers will certainly climb out of theirs, and they would be even better shape if they stuck with Hinkie.

      And yes you do have to go to extremes when all the other teams do. When you don’t you end up getting exploited.

      The coach can’t tell the players to lose on purpose but he can purposefully play funky lineups. 3-4 guard lineups, or 3-4 forward lineups. Just do whacky things. Chasson Randle only played like 5 minutes anyway

    44. Giving out market value contracts to guys like Justin Holiday is not how you build a winner. We already have a bunch of money tied up in guys who have a zero percent chance of outperforming their contracts: Noah, Lee and Thomas are all here for three more such seasons. Do we really want to be paying $40M+ every season for three years of a Noah, Lee, Thomas and Justin Holiday “core”?

    45. FWIW, the reason the Spurs (and recently the Hawks) have been consistently good is because they keep guys on their team and then develop them over years.

      Thomas is a far superior player now than he was 3 years ago. And lo and behold, his development happened in his mid-20s — it IS possible to expand your game after age 23-24. How about giving guys a chance to develop before we just chuck them overboard or think they are unsalvageable?

      I’m not talking about Sasha, who is older than dirt. But Baker and NDour have looked passable at times this year, and have some development left in them. Holiday turned 28 today, and so yes, he’s probably not going to get so much better, but he’s probably a rotation guard on a reasonable NBA team. And at 7% of the cap, it’s a moveable contract if necessary.

    46. the only reason to sign holiday is if you think you can move lee, otherwise it doesnt really make sense.

    47. @38 Respectfully, gimme a break. A guy who almost never gets off the bench and struggles to find his corner to stand in without falling down was the best player in the trade? The second rounder that we acquired for not so young Jerian will run rings around him just as Justin Holiday does now.

      Against my better judgment, I’ll bite.

      Okay reub, I know you’re convinced Grant is a total scrub. My question is simple: why do the numbers disagree with you? What do you see that they don’t? Grant has a .094 WS48 and .078 WP48, both figures that are perfectly acceptable for a 2nd year player making $1.6 million. There’s a very good argument that he would’ve been the best point guard on our roster this season.

      I know there’s a tendency among Knicks fans to pretend Grant was completely expendable in order to convince ourselves that we made a mediocre trade instead of an awful one. It’s not like I think Grant will be anything special, but who the fuck are we to be dismissive of young, potential rotation-level players? We have, like, 6 guys (maximum) on this team who are rotation-level and a few of them are old and/or expensive.

    48. It’s silly to just dismiss Jerian Grant. The Bulls have seemed to want him more as a off ball shooter/defensive specialist. He can guard both the 1 and 2.

      Year 1: 5.0 assists per 36 min, 2.5 TOs per 36 min, 22.0% 3pt,
      Year 2: 3.8 assists per 36 min, 1.6 TOs per 36 min, 35.9% 3pt

    49. FWIW, the reason the Spurs (and recently the Hawks) have been consistently good is because they keep guys on their team and then develop them over years.

      We’re not developing Lance Thomas or Justin Holliday into anything. They’re finished products. They are useful NBA players. You have a hole at small forward, you can play Thomas or Holliday and your team won’t fall apart. If we can move Lee and sign Holiday for less money and fewer years, that would be a win that wouldn’t really cost us anything.

    50. Respectfully, why is anyone arguing about player evaluation with the guy who pretended to think Tony Wroten was a really good signing? Why does Reub pretend Grant is trash? Because he’s trolling you.

    51. Respectfully, why is anyone arguing about player evaluation with the guy who pretended to think Tony Wroten was a really good signing? Why does Reub pretend Grant is trash? Because he’s trolling you.

      Agreed, which is why I responded against my better judgment, but unfortunately Reub is not the only person who engages in this bizarre Jerian Grant trutherism. It’s pretty common among Knicks fans to say the Rose trade was a “flyer” or “risk-free,” as if we didn’t just dump Grant for a mediocre impending UFA in Holiday and a 2nd round pick in the buyable range.

    52. Respectfully, talking about Tony Wroten doesn’t make Jerian Grant any better.

    53. The issue with the Grant situation is that some people still believe in the sanctity of NBA decision-makers.

      The argument is generally “if he’s any good how come he’s not playing more over Rondo or MCW?”

      The correct answer is: have you watched the Bulls yesterday? They are not only terribly constructed as a team, they are also stupidly managed. MCW plays more than Grant for a simple reason: Fred Hoiberg is stupid. No need for mental gymnastics and statistics bashing.

    54. If Justin Holliday were a rotation guy on a 50-win level team, it would make sense to re-sign him. Unfortunately, he’s a rotation guy on a 30-win level team. Re-signing Justin Holliday might help you get to 32 wins next year, but what’s the point.

    55. overall, I’d say that the trade was at worst a slight loss, and more likely a break-even situation. We freed up Lopez’s cap space past this year and included Calderon’s corpse to make the deal work. We lost one young player with very limited promise and got a slightly more expensive version of him plus a second-round pick in a deep draft.

      Rose has played more and better than many expected, and there is zero chance now that he gets maxed, as many feared.

      I suppose we could have gotten more for Lopez than we did at that time, but as it stands now, I soubt that the team would be in a better position going forward than had we kept him. I stand firmly against lumping the Noah signing in with this deal, for me they always will be two completely separate transactions. No need to revisit it since my opinion won’t change on the issue, and I doubt anyone else’s will.

    56. I wouldn’t re-sign Holiday at any price that could inhibit our flexibility in any way going forward. In other words, nothing that the stretch provision couldn’t render negligible. I like his hustle on defense as much as everyone else but the numbers don’t exactly support him being an impact defender. He’s a decent shooter and rebounder who doesn’t do anything particularly stupid, which has value for sure but isn’t awfully difficult to find. I’d offer him 4 years, $12m and not budge.

    57. @ 58 – I just don’t get this argument. We aren’t a good team so we shouldn’t keep the good role players we have. The problem is Melo and Rose. The role players are buying in and playing well. Sure Holiday ain’t young but he’s contributing to the system style that the younger guys and role players are playing. Keep him and its one less player to have to worry about finding somewhere else.

      I get it. WE all want to put together a roster of 15 players who are all under the age of 24 and have perfect advanced stats. But roster building doesn’t work like that. Holiday will be older when KP and Willie H and our draft pick are in their prime but in the years between now and then he can be a valuable piece of the puzzle and one less player to worry about. Once roles in our system are established and we are a winning team, its WAY easier to replace those roles when players leave or get too old. The Spurs chug along bc every year when a player retires or leaves Pop and the scouts can easily find a replacement and if its a fee agent they can go to that player and say “this is exactly the role you will play on this team.” They player comes to the team knowing what is expected of them. Holiday has been a good soldier during a rough year. He plays defense and is unselfish. RESIGN HIM!

    58. @59

      Lopez certainly could have fetched more and we replaced him with a much worse player and worse contract in JOAKIM

    59. I respectfully disagree.

      the Spurs are a great franchise precisely because they never overpay the Justin Holiday types… they let them go as soon as it seems they will command a larger contract and replace them with cheap dudes, they did it very recently even with Cory Joseph, Boban Marjanovic, Aron Baynes, Marco Belinelli, even Diaw to some extent.

      bad franchises commit long-term money to players who aren’t immediately replaceable, and Holiday is such a player.

    60. Holiday is an average backup SG, which makes him roughly the #45 SG in the league. If you list all SGs in the league by salary, the #45 SG makes $3.6 mil. Factor in NBA salary inflation and that means Holiday is worth a little over $4 mil next year.

      I would happily resign him at that price. He may not have a high ceiling, but he’s solid and made some clutch shots back when we were winning in December. $4-5 mil for a respectable wing is not much in today’s NBA. Those guys are always tradeable and can play the 2 or the 3.

    61. That said, I’d take Holiday back on a 4-year 15 million deal max, but anything more and it’s a bad deal.

    62. If the Knicks had a history of player development like the Spurs, I’d be fine letting Holiday go. But I don’t trust our management not to waste that money on a worse player.

      Having Holiday also gives us more freedom to trade Lee, which we really should. Not because Lee is bad but because he doesn’t fit our timeline and has more value to other teams than he does to us.

    63. Dallas, Minnesota, and even the Pelicans are within reach. This dumb team can easily finish 10th and lose out on all the PGs.

    64. I suppose we could have gotten more for Lopez than we did at that time, but as it stands now, I soubt that the team would be in a better position going forward than had we kept him.

      We traded Lopez & Grant for a second round draft pick, who is unlikely to be better than Grant. It was a dumb trade.

    65. As far as the tank goes….

      Orlando (27 wins): We can give up on this. We’re not catching them.
      Philly (28 wins): vs Chi, vs Mil, vs Ind, @NY
      NYK (30 wins): vs Was, @Mem, vs Tor, vs Phi
      Sacto (31 wins): @LAL, vs Hou, vs Phx, @LAC
      Minny (31 wins): @Por, @Uta, @LAL, vs OKC, @Hou
      Dallas (32 wins): @LAC, vs SA, @Phx, vs Den, @Mem

      For us to have any chance of catching Philly, we’d need to lose our next 3, hope Philly beats one of the 3 fringe East playoff teams they’re facing, and then we’d have to rest everyone against them in the season finale. Unlikely but not impossible.

      Assuming we win at least one more game, to stay in 6th place we’d need Sac to beat either LAL or Phx AND we’d need Minny to win at LAL.

      If we win 2 of our last 4, not only might we pass Sacto and Minny, we have an outside chance of tying Dallas for 9th place.

    66. My guess is that we lose our next 3 and Philly wins 1 of their next 3, setting up a showdown in the season finale. We win that game to complete a season of disgrace and get to 31 wins.

      However, Sac and Minny each win at least 1 more game too, so we stay in 6th place entering the draft lottery.

    67. i would not bring holiday back even if it were the vet minimum… we are in the accumulation phase and we have to figure out who the players are going to be on the next good knick team….

      from that perspective holiday is not it… he is at best a place holder and we already have a placeholder with lee… we need guys to grow with our young group.. that might be baker or it could be one of the 2nd rd picks or it could be a guy from europe… but we need to figure out who these guys are…. it could very well be none of the above in which case that’s where the cap room comes into play…

    68. Do any of the teams we’re playing have any reason to try to win?

      I think they’re all at least nominally still fighting for seeding, but the Bulls had the most obvious incentive to win of all of them and it didn’t help them.

    69. What’s left to do but mess with tankathon?

      Assuming the current standings hold, would you rather-
      A- the Celtics pick #1 and the Knicks pick #2
      B- the top 3 picks all land outside the Atlantic Division and the Knicks pick #7

    70. Do any of the teams we’re playing have any reason to try to win?

      Washington and Toronto are tied for the 3 seed, so they are theoretically trying to win, but if Boston gets the 1 seed then Wash and Tor might be incentivized to lose to avoid Cleveland.

      Memphis 2.5 back of OKC for the 6th seed. They play OKC tonight. If they win, they’ll be playing hard against the Knicks. If they lose, they’ll probably give up on the 6th seed and may be resting when they play us.

    71. @74

      option A and I don’t even think it’s close. I could care less if Celtics get the #1 pick, they are in good shape for their future regardless.

      but if we get the #2 that means lonzo ball or fultz. so easy decision for me

    72. yeah, I honestly couldn’t care less about what the Celtics do, it’s not like the Knicks are going to be in better shape than them in the next 5 years anyway unless we find a real bonafide superstar, so a top 2 pick is always going to be better.

    73. sorry, always late to the party…

      at the moment, they’re fucking their shit up more than the Knicks are fucking their shit up

      ‘don’t jimmie me’ brian…

      – <3 Lance Stephenson <3

      the end of the pacers/raptors game was hilarious – fuck the raptors…

      great discussions today on what to do with holiday…it’s crazy just how damn convincing some of you all can be…

      i’m thinking holiday is a pretty easily replaceable player…i like him – but…

    74. We are the Knicks, Phil Jackson is our GM. We are spending every penny of our cap. We are not holding it for favorable cap trades, we are signing players. With that in mind I think resigning Holiday for anything less than 3 years 21 million is a no brainer. I would limit it to three years so he comes off the cap at the same time as Noah and Thomas but if not Holiday then we’ll overpay for some terrible veteran and it’ll be worse. A decent rotation player is better than the majority of free agents we’ve brought in so Holiday is sort of best case for us.

    75. We traded Lopez & Grant for a second round draft pick, who is unlikely to be better than Grant. It was a dumb trade.

      It may have been dumb, but in hindsight, the outcome is not bad. Grant did not really develop, cap space was freed up, Rose played so-so and got hurt so will likely not be resigned, and we are in a good draft spot. We may have a slight edge in signing Holiday to a reasonable contract. The second round this year is likely better than average in terms of yielding good players.

      It’s dumb to split fives in black jack, but if the outcome is that one hand wins and one hand loses, it definitely could have been worse. The outcome of this trade is not nearly as bad as some feared.

    76. We are the Knicks, Phil Jackson is our GM. We are spending every penny of our cap. We are not holding it for favorable cap trades, we are signing players. With that in mind I think resigning Holiday for anything less than 3 years 21 million is a no brainer.

      “Since doing actual smart things is out of the question, let’s hope that the front office does things that are somewhat less dumb than the usual dumb things.”

      #Knicks

    77. Some of you can’t see past the numbers that are on the tip of your nose. Holiday has excelled in Hornacek’s system, plays good defense, is a good three point shooter, gives us enthusiasm and desire, vital continuity, and is probably ready to move to the next level while entering his prime years. Not re-signing him for a reasonable contract would be malpractice. This is the problem with just using stats. It stifles the eyes and the brain from projecting the future possibilities.

      Oh, and the reasoning that Holiday doesn’t instantly make us world champions so why keep him is just insane.

    78. Lopez is horrible (O’Quinn abused him last night) and Grant has been worse than that. Plus we moved Calderon. In return we got DRose and his future cap space (where we had nobody), Justin Holiday (who is a nice player) and a #2 pick in a very deep draft. That looks like a good trade to me.

    79. Grant did not really develop

      Told y’all the Jerian Grant trutherism isn’t limited to Reub!

    80. Lopez is horrible (O’Quinn abused him last night) and Grant has been worse than that. Plus we moved Calderon. In return we got DRose and his future cap space (where we had nobody), Justin Holiday (who is a nice player) and a #2 pick in a very deep draft. That looks like a good trade to me.

      you’ve convinced me reub – phil for exec of the year…no, not really :-)

      in all seriousness though – how good a coach is horny really – and, kind of how we look at player stats, other than wins and losses is there any good statistical way to measure a coach?

    81. Well Grant night have developed some callouses sitting on the end of the bench most of the time so that is some form of development. I know, Tony Wroten….

    82. I like this team going forward. KP, Willy, Baker, NDour, Q’Quinn, Holiday, Lee can all be a part of a championship team down the line. With 3 draft choices this year and cap space we can add a few more chips and possibly 1 or 2 more stars.

    83. Frank Ntilikina is our destiny. Though Adam Silver might throw a well-deserved bone our way and give us Lonzo Ball.

    84. Upside comps for the draft class:

      Fultz=Westbrook
      Ball=Kidd
      Jackson=Kawhi
      Tatum=Melo
      Smith=CP3
      Monk=McCollum or Beal
      Isaac=Greek Freak
      Bridges=Millsap
      Ntilikina=Jrue
      Fox=Wall
      Markkanen=Ryan Anderson
      Zach Collins=Love

      Flame away.

    85. the reason that holiday shouldn’t be brought back even on the vet minimum is because not only does holiday take up cap space he also takes up a roster spot and playing time…. that’s an opportunity cost… the list of guys who have a good shot at being on the next good knick team is:

      1)kp
      2)wily

      and that’s it…. we have chasson, baker, plumlee and ndour who are flyers but we need more of those kind of guys.. maybe if they were a little higher on the talent level it would be ideal but we need an influx of talent…. holiday is a placeholder for a backup sg spot…. there are troves of guys in the dleague and in europe who can approximate what he does very very easily if we fail to identify an ideal younger/productive player for his spot….

      i just don’t get the eagerness for holiday to return…

    86. “there are troves of guys in the dleague and in europe who can approximate what he does very very easily”

      I disagree with this. There is literally no one in the d league who can replace what Holiday does.

      I also believe that if Baker can perfect his outside shot he can become our new Derek Fisher, a strong defensive PG with a killer three in the triangle. It’s possible. And N’Dour can be good with further development.

    87. Not every player needs to be some flier with upside. It’s useful to have some low cost known quantities who will execute properly on both ends and let your hopefully potential difference making talent be in a position to make a difference.

      This is why even though Ish Smith isn’t very good he helped Okafor and Noel offensively, because he was able to perform basic PG functions and deliver the ball to them in places for them to score effectively. Holiday isn’t anything special, but he does his job and is consistent in his effort. That matters even for a rebuilding team.

    88. It’s useful to have some low cost known quantities who will execute properly on both ends and let your hopefully potential difference making talent be in a position to make a difference.

      Again, we’ve got 11 guys under contract. We don’t need another league averagish player. Obviously, this could change if we make some smart moves (get rid of Lee), but for now what’s the point of paying market value for a competent backup with no upside? Say we replace Holliday with a 2nd round draft pick who completely fucking sucks-how much does that cost us? 1 or 2 games?

    89. why is no one acknowledging the fact that the bulls trade also brought us Joakim Noah and his league worst contract. If we don’t move RoLo, we don’t sign Joakim.

      no way that trade was just a wash, it was as bad as we feared

    90. Also can’t fully say that trade is neutral because there is still a chance we resign Rose, LOL

    91. We did not have to sign Joakim just because we traded Lopez. There were other less expensive and younger players out there, or they could have just rolled the dice with what they are rolling with now.

      (when he DID play, Noah played better than Lopez did this year by a considerable margin (as per WS48) but whatever…)

      Both deals were part of the same stupid win-now gamble, but taken separately, the Noah signing was WAY stupider and worked out way worse than the Rose trade.

    92. Trade or no trade, we could have signed Rose next year regardless of where he played this year. He’s a UFA.

    93. You guys must stop fooling yourselves with this “Holiday is a 3 and D type player”

      He’s not.

      He has a .355 3P% this year (career .341) while the league average is .358.

      His DBPM is -0.07 and DRBPM is +0.22.

      He is average in both stats that people think he is good at.

      Let him walk.

    94. Again, we’ve got 11 guys under contract. We don’t need another league averagish player. Obviously, this could change if we make some smart moves (get rid of Lee), but for now what’s the point of paying market value for a competent backup with no upside? Say we replace Holliday with a 2nd round draft pick who completely fucking sucks-how much does that cost us? 1 or 2 games?

      I’m assuming we’re not returning 11 guys. I’m not opposed to letting Holiday walk, I just don’t think his contract will be onerous and I’d rather keep some hard working dudes familiar with the system, coach and players we have than roll with an unknown.

      I’d draft a wing even if we keep Holiday to groom and we need more wings to utilize in small ball lineups with KP at the 5 anyways. Competent wings are pretty hard to find in the league and are at a premium so if you can keep Holiday on a length of 3 years, $21m aka Jeremy Lamb money I’d be okay with that.

      I’m also not very concerned with the dollars as much as the years we hand out. I believe Holiday at that price is a movable asset. If we let him walk I wouldn’t be that concerned about it though, I’m just willing to pay a little bit of a premium because I think the continuity and versatility he offers is worth it.

    95. We did not have to sign Joakim just because we traded Lopez. There were other less expensive and younger players out there, or they could have just rolled the dice with what they are rolling with now.

      (when he DID play, Noah played better than Lopez did this year by a considerable margin (as per WS48) but whatever…)

      Both deals were part of the same stupid win-now gamble, but taken separately, the Noah signing was WAY stupider and worked out way worse than the Rose trade.

      In case anyone’s wondering, Z-man and I are converging into the same person.

    96. He has a .355 3P% this year (career .341) while the league average is .358.

      His DBPM is -0.07 and DRBPM is +0.22.

      He is average in both stats that people think he is good at.

      Let him walk.

      So he’s an average player who will get paid an average salary or less and and probaby be a rotation player? That seems a reasonable deal to me. If you don’t have someone better, it makes sense to re-sign him.

    97. If you don’t have someone better, it makes sense to re-sign him.

      Seriously? You want to give an NBA average salary ($4.6M) to a player instead of trying to find a better value on the market, a la Seth Curry? C’mon, man. This team is not fighting to make the leap from good to great. This is a team that needs to use roster slots to find above-average players like Hernangomez, not desperately cling to mediocrity by paying veterans to become a 38-win team.

    98. Ok my pet peeve that I can’t help bitching about….

      Other than being white, how can anyone compare Zach collins to Love. Love is good at rebounding, passing and shooting, and cannot protect the rim at all, while Collins can protect the rim well and has shown very little as a passer.
      This is just lazy shit. Like the guy on here who kept comparing Fox to Jennings because they’re both lefty and black, even though they are complete opposites in the way they play. For christ sakes, Jennings probably shot more 3s in his last shoot around than fox has all season, and defensively it’s like comparing rose to Paul.

      That is all.

    99. I’m fine with looking at the Rose trade in a vacuum. So we gave up Grant and Lopez for a second round pick in the buyable range, and Justin Holiday who will be an unrestricted free agent, so not really anything because we could’ve just signed him anyway if we liked him.

      The trade on its own is probably a D-, we gave up some low-level assets for just about nothing. I was more concerned at the time, and still am concerned going forward, with what it signified; that our front office actually thought that Derrick fucking Rose would help with the construction of a “win-now” team. That’s a huge indictment on their talent evaluation abilities, and there’s no reason to believe they’ve gotten any better in that department between then and now.

    100. And this Holliday and Oquinn love just has to stop. Every team has a Holliday or Oquinn.
      Just a couple of random names off the top of my head- Taurean Prince and Tarik black, who most people haven’t heard of. Well if they were on the knicks, some of you guys would be talking about trading them for a mid 1st rounder or signing them to 4 year deals. Prince us 4 or 5 years younger than Holliday, so if you are gonna sign a backup defensive wing, look at a guy like that.

    101. So he’s an average player who will get paid an average salary or less and and probaby be a rotation player? That seems a reasonable deal to me. If you don’t have someone better, it makes sense to re-sign him.

      No. I’m saying that the two things that we though that he was good, he’s actually average.

      Seriously? You want to give an NBA average salary ($4.6M) to a player instead of trying to find a better value on the market, a la Seth Curry? C’mon, man. This team is not fighting to make the leap from good to great. This is a team that needs to use roster slots to find above-average players like Hernangomez, not desperately cling to mediocrity by paying veterans to become a 38-win team.

      Exactly. Opportunity cost.

    102. Taurean Prince was the 12th pick in the first round of the draft last year so you’re saying that Holiday has first round value? That makes him seem even more like a keeper.

    103. On the Holiday debate, I could take or leave him. If he goes no big loss. If he comes back on a team friendly deal, then that’s okay. I appreciate the opportunity cost argument though. If you can find a younger guy with comparable production with greater potential, you give them Holiday’s spot.

      On the win last night, I don’t think there is much we can do. We played 5 rookies, and Forrest Moon had a rare good game after getting a bump in playing time. The Bulls also played like they had replaced their gatorade with night time cough medicine. The East is that bad that teams tussling for a playoff spot are at risk of dropping a game to a lottery team. Short of waiving everyone and signing a heap of D-League scrubs to 10 contracts, we are going to win a game or two unfortunately.

    104. Come on now. You don’t replace a relatively young, improving player going into his prime who knows and excels in your system for “opportunity cost.” One of your best 7 players. You can do that with your 14th or 15th man. It’s really a ridiculous argument.

    105. So, who is the above average young player who can be gotten for a cheaper salary than Holiday? Name? Let’s sign him!

    106. So, who is the above average young player who can be gotten for a cheaper salary than Holiday? Name? Let’s sign him!

      Better yet. Let’s draft him.

    107. The Cavs are flat out embarrassing the Celtics. Just goes to show you how far off teams with no second option are from winning a championship.

    108. Reub is a troll. He can’t be bargained with. He can’t be reasoned with. He doesn’t use WP, WS or BPM. And he absolutely will not stop… ever,

      the Lakers are laying a hellacious beating on the Spurs

    109. With the 2nd round pick gotten in the Rose trade? Irony!

      Yeah, the pick was nice but seriously, that pick could be bought with Dolan’s money almost every year.

    110. Signing Holiday for a reasonable salary isn’t going to prevent us from signing a cheaper alternative as well or drafting one. We can do both, which is what I’d like to do. If we want to play small more often we need more numbers on the wing.

      Ideally in the draft or in FA we’d add a lead guard, a 2/3 wing and a combo forward.

    111. The Cavs are flat out embarrassing the Celtics. Just goes to show you how far off teams with no second option are from winning a championship.

      The Celtics look like they are a Melo size piece away from seriously competing *nudges and winks at Danny Ainge*

    112. Frank Ntilikina profiles to be a Holiday 3 and D type except with bonafied 3 point shooting ability and defense. That is his floor. We don’t need to keep Justin.

    113. The Celtics look like they are a Melo size piece away from seriously competing *nudges and winks at Danny Ainge*

      Jimmy Butler nudges and winks back at Danny Ainge.

    114. Jimmy Butler nudges and winks back at Danny Ainge.

      Jimmy Butler is good and all, but can he get Ainge free Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles t-shirts like Melo can? I don’t think so. As a competent GM you need to weigh these things up.

    115. We’ll have something like a maximum of 16 million to spend if we sign our draft picks and don’t get rid of anyone, right?

    116. I’d spend a good portion of that money on Patty Mills

      +1

      Not sure if the Spurs will let him go. Parker looks done this year

    117. If Mills isn’t playing 32 MPG in the playoffs for the Spurs I’m going to be pretty confused.

    118. Spurs are in an interesting spot. I could see them letting Mills go if they choose to make a run at somebody like Hayward.

      I’m also not sure what kind of $ they’ll be willing to extend to Mills despite his play. His market will be interesting, because he doesn’t profile as a traditional primary ball handler, but in many ways he’s a perfect fit in a 2 guard front like we run. He cuts and moves off the ball with purpose, which is something we desperately need more of.

    119. Patty Mills isn’t coming here. What are some of you smoking? We need to work from the inside out and grow our base. Establish continuity and grow our young players into the system. Add a star or two and we’re there.

      DRed, I love you too.
      2For18 I’m 60. I worked as an air traffic controller in a busy high altitude NY facility for 30 years. I live in Queens and I’m retired now. How ’bout you?

    120. Spurs are in an interesting spot. I could see them letting Mills go if they choose to make a run at somebody like Hayward.

      I’m also not sure what kind of $ they’ll be willing to extend to Mills despite his play. His market will be interesting, because he doesn’t profile as a traditional primary ball handler, but in many ways he’s a perfect fit in a 2 guard front like we run. He cuts and moves off the ball with purpose, which is something we desperately need more of.

      The spurs only have 10 million to spend next year. If they choose to make a run at Hayward, it’s the kind of situation that we should try to get in the middle to help them free some cap space.

      Danny Green or Pau Gasol + their 1st rounder for both our 2nd rounders.

    121. So he’s an average player who will get paid an average salary or less and and probaby be a rotation player? That seems a reasonable deal to me. If you don’t have someone better, it makes sense to re-sign him.

      No. I’m saying that the two things that we though that he was good, he’s actually average.

      Seriously? You want to give an NBA average salary ($4.6M) to a player instead of trying to find a better value on the market, a la Seth Curry? C’mon, man. This team is not fighting to make the leap from good to great. This is a team that needs to use roster slots to find above-average players like Hernangomez, not desperately cling to mediocrity by paying veterans to become a 38-win team.

      Exactly. Opportunity cost.

      I never said Holiday was above average as a player. I think he’s doing fine as a role player and a bench component.

      As Clashfan implied, it’s not so easy to sign bargains. Otherwise, all those other supposedly much better non-Knick front offices would be doing it. “Replacement level” players signed from D-League or elsewhere are almost always worse than league average. Given that Holiday made a $1M salary this year, we could double his salary and get a bargain from it. Obviously, if you have someone great to replace him, you don’t do that. But if he likes it here and we have space for him, that’s one less worry for us. There is also opportunity cost the other way. The Knicks need to focus on getting a good point guard and maybe also a good point guard backup. Having reasonable role players at other positions means they can spend more on that search.

    122. We have so many more areas to address than Holliday. We have three draft picks this offseason and I would rather each of them get more minutes to play come 17-18 than Holliday.

    123. I really want Kerr to let Curry play 40 loose minutes (i.e. against a lottery team, rather than the Cavs) and see if he can score 80. 21 points on 9 shots with 3 minutes to go in the first. Unfair.

    124. The spurs only have 10 million to spend next year. If they choose to make a run at Hayward, it’s the kind of situation that we should try to get in the middle to help them free some cap space.

      Danny Green or Pau Gasol + their 1st rounder for both our 2nd rounders.

      I’m assuming Dedmon and Lee opt out, so that should bring them up to around $14m in space. If they can ship Pau out or he opts out I think that would be enough to create max space for Hayward. Now, if they need somebody to take that contract for a pick, sure let’s do it, but they probably won’t need to.

      The question regarding Mills in that scenario is how willing are they to push close to the luxury tax at $121m with LMA’s pending free agency next summer when he has the chance to opt out.

    125. Mills isn’t leaving and LMA will re-sign at a discount, if necessary.

    126. I wonder what Jared Dudley’s favorite chain restaurant in Phoenix is. $30M buys a lot of cheddar bay biscuits, but all-you-can-eat pasta is hard to pass up.

    127. lakers beat the spurs!!! lmaoooo imagine the sixers get their pick…

      Spurs should honestly start Manu over Tony come playoffs. it won’t happen because it would mess up the bench rotation but I think it might be correct

    128. No. We have something like 22 million. (the nba salary cap will be around 102 million)

      It’s $22 million before cap holds. Cap holds could knock that number done by a decent chunk. Probably closer to $18 million if they don’t renounce anyone.

    129. Phoenix is shameless and should be punished by Silver. Secretly replace some of their balls with Knicks ones.
      :-)

      Holiday is a solid role player who will not be as easy to replace as some think. At the same time, I agree not to overpay him. But for $3-4m per year, sure. More…I don’t think so, unless LT can be moved. I feel about him like I did about Galloway last year. Would like to retain him, but if he gets more somewhere else, so be it.

      So what kind of “chips” will Melo bring to Phil’s table? I’d say Sour Cream and Onion, but I’m a big fan of Vinegar and Sea Salt.

    130. Given that Holiday made a $1M salary this year, we could double his salary and get a bargain from it.

      Of course, but the MLE will be $8.4 million next year. Is he still a bargain if they octuple his salary and sign him for four years?

    131. @143
      No. Especially not with LT on the books. I’d offer Holiday half the MLE for 3 years.

    132. Wait did I read it right that if lakers lose their pick this year they also lose it next year too?

    133. Wait did I read it right that if lakers lose their pick this year they also lose it next year too?

      Not next year, but 2019. The issue is that if the Sixers don’t get the Lakers pick this year, they get it without any limitations next year. But because of the “you can’t give up a pick in back to back years” rule, that means that they cannot give up the first round pick they owe to Orlando in 2019, and thus the pick that they owe in 2019 would have to be pushed to 2020, and as it turns out, the conditions of the deal was that if the pick is not transferred by 2019, then it converts to two second round picks in 2017 and 2018 (since the Lakers would know by the time of the 2017 draft whether the pick would be conveyed or not). Soooooo….yeah, pretty big lottery night for the Lakers.

    134. Ok thanks, makes sense. So worst case they lose their 2017 and 2019 first rounders. And tonights win over the spurs increased the chances by 10%.

      47% chance they land in top 3

      high stakes coin flip come ping pong night

    135. Dolan got into a fight with a fan outside MSG after the fan told him to sell the team. Dolan called the guy an asshole, barred him from the arena, and — because this is his trademark — accused him of being drunk.

    136. Of course, but the MLE will be $8.4 million next year. Is he still a bargain if they octuple his salary and sign him for four years?

      Well that is a different question. I really doubt anyone is going to offer him that much, and no, that wouldn’t be a bargain. We like him, but the fact that he earned playing time on the Knicks will not be a suggestion of great talent to other teams, so I think if he gets offers from other it will be from those who to need to fill holes in their rosters with role players. Langston Galloway got a two contract for a total of $10 million. I don’t see anyone offering Holiday more than that. Offering less is more likely

    137. This discussion literally began by Frank saying that it would be a no-brainer for the Knicks to re-sign Holiday at “Early-Bird level $,” which is the MLE, which is $8.4 million.

    138. I think the only way I might be okay with bringing back Holiday on a MLE deal is if the knicks can trade Lee for a 1st rd draft pick. It doesn’t even need to be a pick in 2017 either.

    139. As for whether Holiday could get $8 million (or more) on the open market for his age 28 season (this season was his age 27 season)….

      Last season, with the cap roughly $9-10 million lower than it will be next year (and the MLE was roughly $6 million):

      30-year-old Mirza Teletovic got $10 million per over four years
      26-year-old E’Twaun Moore got $8.5 million per over four years
      29-year-old Garrett Temple got $8 million per over three years
      30-year-old Courtney Lee got $12 million per over four years
      30-year-old Arron Afflalo got $12.5 million per over two years
      27-year-old Lance Thomas got the MLE over four years

      (Those ages were for their previous season, so the first years of their deals would be for one year later, so Moore was signing for his age 27 season, Lee was signing for his age 31 season, etc.)

      I find it hard to believe that Holiday, who is a comparable player to all of those guys (as in he is an average or slightly below average 3 and D wing who is at an age where you would not expect for him to make significant strides in his game), could not get similar money next year. Wings who have even mediocre “3 and D” skills get paid on the open market, since every team needs those types of guys these days. If Holiday is coming back, it is not going to be for cheap, especially not when the Knicks have Early Bird rights on him, so you have to factor that into your thoughts about bringing him back.

    140. Where did $8.4M come from? Per a Wikipedia

      ] In turn, this means that MLEs in the current 2016–17 season are:

      $5.6 million for teams without cap room, below the tax apron
      $3.36 million for teams over the tax apron
      $2.8 million for teams with cap room

    141. The new CBA raised the mid-level exception starting next year, when it bumps up to $8.4 million.

    142. That’s more than I thought. I’d be very surprised if someone offers him that much per year

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