Knicks Morning News (2017.01.06)

  • [NY Newsday] Carmelo Anthony, Knicks must figure out how to end slide
    (Thursday, January 05, 2017 7:01:44 PM)

    GREENBURGH, N.Y. — Not only is Giannis Antetokounmpo nicknamed “The Greek Freak,” he’s also “The Alphabet,” and he spelled “victory” for the Bucks against the Knicks Wednesday night at the Garden. Now the Knicks need to figure out The Alphabet in the sequel Friday night at Milwaukee.

  • [NY Newsday] NBA All-Star voting: LeBron James, Kyrie Irving lead in first fan returns
    (Thursday, January 05, 2017 5:52:15 PM)

    The defending NBA champions lead the way in NBA All-Star voting, with the Cleveland Cavaliers’ LeBron James and Kyrie Irving the top two vote-getters overall in the first fan returns.

  • [ESPN] Friday’s Knicks News: Melo needs to step up to end losing streak
    (Friday, January 06, 2017 5:44:12 AM)

    Friday’s Knicks News: Melo needs to step up to end losing streak

  • [ESPN] Brandon Jennings: Knicks need to hold each other accountable
    (Friday, January 06, 2017 1:34:26 AM)

    Brandon Jennings: Knicks need to hold each other accountable

  • [ESPN] NBA: 5-second violation on Giannis’ buzzer-beater
    (Thursday, January 05, 2017 6:34:26 PM)

    NBA: 5-second violation on Giannis’ buzzer-beater

  • [NYDN] Antetokounmpo’s buzzer-beater vs. Knicks shouldn’t have counted
    (Thursday, January 05, 2017 2:29:04 PM)

    A missed whistle cost the Knicks a victory Wednesday, but only after the refs ignored another call that would’ve worked against New York.

  • [NYDN] Jeff Hornacek: Not disgusted with Iso-Carmelo in walk-away video
    (Thursday, January 05, 2017 1:24:46 PM)

    If you know Knicks fans, you know Isolation-Carmelo is a sensitive and controversial topic.

  • [SNY Knicks] GEICO SportsNite: Melo on Knicks’ losing streak
    (Thursday, January 05, 2017 11:58:12 PM)

    Carmelo Anthony discusses the Knicks’ six-game losing streak and what it means to the team.

  • [SNY Knicks] NBA report: 5-second violation preceded Bucks’ game-winner vs. Knicks
    (Thursday, January 05, 2017 7:26:20 PM)

    According to the NBA’s ‘Last Two Minute’ report, Giannis Antetokounmpo should have been called for a five-second violation before releasing his winning step-back jumper at the buzzer in Milwaukee’s 104-103 win over the Knicks at Madison Square Garden Wednesday.

  • [SNY Knicks] Melo, Porzingis, Rose trailing in early All-Star Game voting
    (Thursday, January 05, 2017 3:15:14 PM)

    None of the Knicks are on track to be starters at the All-Star Game on Feb. 19 in New Orleans.

  • [SNY Knicks] Hornacek says free-falling Knicks are making strides
    (Thursday, January 05, 2017 11:30:33 AM)

    Knicks head coach Jeff Hornacek says the team is making strides despite having lost six games in a row.

  • [SNY Knicks] Porzingis missed third straight game Wednesday due to sore Achilles
    (Thursday, January 05, 2017 11:00:48 AM)

    Kristaps Porzingis missed his third straight game Wednesday night due to a stiff Achilles tendon.

  • [SNY Knicks] Knicks interested in trading for Suns’ Tucker
    (Thursday, January 05, 2017 8:52:39 AM)

    The New York Knicks are looking into trading for Phoenix Suns forward P.J. Tucker to upgrade their defense.

  • [SNY Knicks] Knicks recall Maurice Ndour from D-League
    (Thursday, January 05, 2017 8:40:56 AM)

    The Knicks have recalled F Maurice Ndour from their D-League affiliate, the team announced Thursday.

  • [NYPost] The one piece of good news for the free-falling Knicks
    (Thursday, January 05, 2017 8:51:17 PM)

    How about those Giants? That defense could lead them to the Super Bowl, don’t you think? Meanwhile, the Knicks are crashing and burning. Yup, good old Eli Manning has been there before and knows what it takes. And is Odell Beckham Jr. a game-breaker or what? The Knicks are in 10th place in the East,…

  • [NYPost] Greek Freak should have been called for 5-second violation
    (Thursday, January 05, 2017 5:47:22 PM)

    Turns out the referees missed a five-second call on Milwaukee’s Giannis Antetokounmpo when he beat the buzzer and the Knicks on Wednesday. But only because they didn’t have a stopwatch. So essentially, they made the right call. The league, in its Last Two Minute Report of the game, noted the rarely enforced five-second rule against…

  • [NYTimes] N.B.A. Two-Minute Report Detects Problems on Play That Beat Knicks
    (Friday, January 06, 2017 1:45:50 AM)

    Giannis Antetokounmpo technically committed an offensive five-second violation before his buzzer-beating shot that gave the Bucks a one-point win, the league said in a customary review of the officials’ work.

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    Mike Kurylo is the founder and editor of KnickerBlogger.net. His book on the 2012 Knicks, "We’ll Always Have Linsanity," is on sale now. Follow him on twitter (@KnickerBlogger).

    150 thoughts to “Knicks Morning News (2017.01.06)”

    1. I just…sigh…I’m just sick of hearing these Knicks talk about toughness, accountability & defensive pride. It’s time that all of their words show up on the court. While I appreciate the youth on the roster, maybe Phil should add a bit of veteran leadership since it seems that Noah & Melo’s leadership isn’t resonating with the squad enough or Rose & KP aren’t stepping into that void. Rose moreso than KP because he is the purported floor general. Shit…maybe Rose should study old film of Derek Harper, Charlie Ward, and Chris Childs.

    2. If this roster needs to add veteran leadership, blow it the fuck up. KP sure says a lot of nice stuff about Melo, but is there any indication that he acts as a leader? I have never encountered a good leader who didn’t set the right example.

      When the team breaks down film and everyone sees Melo spend entire games on defense dicking around the free throw line, guarding nobody, hoping to +1 his rebound total- you think that gets them ready to lock down their man the next game?

    3. Knicks lacking a real catalyst that would ignite, ala Jason Kidd in the Melo era… Rose/Noah may not be it as their catalyst in Chicago was Thibs..

      Would be interesting to see Phil’s next move

    4. I’m honestly a bit frightened as to what Jackson will do next. The Knicks have very little in the way of non-draft assets, so if Jackson wants to bring a player in to help the team this year…well…that might not be good.

    5. We already know Phil’s next go to move, its been discussed on the rumor wire. He’s going to make another short-sighted, one-dimensional checker move in a chess match by trading for a “gritty veteran” type in P.J. Tucker to come and play defense.

    6. Forget “leadeship”, “veteran” and all those empty stupid buzzwords used to obfuscate the real issue: we need GOOD players. That’s all.

      Our team is an assortment of one-trick ponies with so-so tricks and nothing will change until we replace about half the roster with younger, more sound players. Will take years, if done correctly, and begins with getting rid of Melo (if they develop the balls to demote him to the second squad and sell Porzingis as the new star) and Rose.

      Until then, this will be the 37-win, ugly team I predicted.

    7. Btw, a clear NO to reclamation projects and mediocre veterans. We don’t need more garbage.

    8. So now with Atlanta potentially falling out of the playoffs we have to count on The Wizards, Detroit and Magic to keep us out.

      Wizards might get in as long as Wall and Beal don’t take shots at each others contracts for the rest of the year. Detroit could make a push if they get their act together with Reggie Jackson instead of Ish Smith as their starting PG. The Magic are garbage so you can’t trust them to do anything competently.

    9. Some of you just don’t see the plan. We can have good veterans AND good young players. It doesn’t have to be either or.

    10. I can’t believe that I’m taking time away from lounging on the beach in Magen’s Bay St. Thomas to try to keep you all positive. Snowing?

    11. I don’t think this move alone is surely making Atlanta fall out of the playoffs… Korver wasn’t really playing all that well and had been losing minutes to Sefolosha / Bazemore as the wing combination.

      if they do trade Millsap it will depend a lot on who they get back… Millsap has also been pretty terrible this year by his standards and they might even become a better team depending on the trade results.

      as long as they don’t trade Schroder and Howard, they will be fine.

    12. Yeah of course, seeing that they gave Korver away for basically nothing I wouldn’t be surprised if Millsap is gone soon.

    13. they got back a 2019 heavily protected first rounder.

      if we assume that pick is lottery protected, this might actually not be that bad, LeBron’s contract is over in 2019 (if he picks up his player option) and he’s already 32… if he decides to retire, for example, the pick could be pretty good for the next year.

      of course it’s all a long shot, but it is a viable asset for the future… teams like the Hawks need to do this sort of move, they can’t really afford to lose an asset like Korver while getting literally nothing.

    14. I do think that Atlanta felt that this was more about retooling than giving up on the season, as I think they believe that they can compete without Korver and Millsap, while setting themselves up for the future (since Millsap was likely headed out the door after this season).

    15. Beware of Greeks bearing GIFs. Freakin’ Greeks. First Pythagoras, then Giannis. But the next may be the worst: Achilles. Drafting KP may have been the most consequential decision but Dolan wresting control of the medical staff from Phil might have been the second most consequential decision. Phil’s like one of those deranged movie military leaders who will sacrifice everything to win a meaningless battle. If the unicorn must be slaughtered, so be it to General Jackson. Let’s hope Dolan realizes that the unicorn is his next cash cow and ensures that health is priority 1.

    16. Right. Phil hates his players and wants to injure them to win meaningless games. It’s obvious. He thinks he’s General Patton and Douglas MacArthur rolled into one. And what did they ever win?

    17. Phil’s like one of those deranged movie military leaders who will sacrifice everything to win a meaningless battle. If the unicorn must be slaughtered, so be it to General Jackson.

      wut

    18. I feel like they could’ve got something better for Korver closer to the deadline. Feel out the teams a little and hope one gets desperate and does something stupid.

    19. It’s possible that having both KP and Noah healthy at the same time would solve our frontcourt defensive issues.

      It’s also possible that with Melo and Rose in the backcourt, our perimeter/penetration defense will still suck. Maybe playing Lee, Holiday and Lance (who IS above average on defense, come on) more will be a big help. (Ron playing spot minutes with Jennings/Kuz may help too, but he may be too raw)

    20. I agree Kevin, but it may have been done to respect Korvers wishes too… he said before that he thought he’d be a great fit in cleveland, and for all we know he’s been a model professional in Atlanta all those years

    21. This line from an article about the non 5 second call made me chuckle a little:

      “The report also found that the Knicks’ Carmelo Anthony had committed a defensive three-second violation with 4.8 seconds left by standing in the lane without guarding anyone”

      In other words, a normal defensive sequence for Melo.

    22. Right. Phil hates his players and wants to injure them to win meaningless games. It’s obvious.

      wut

      Is this all Greek to you? Phil will probably be fired if NYK fail to make playoffs. That’s a $25m loss to him plus his legacy is tarnished. Where does he go? He couldn’t even get a job in the Laker mailroom. This team needs KP playing 38mpg to make the playoffs. His injury is a warning shot across the bow that he shouldn’t be played that much. Phil will risk KP’s health to make the playoffs. Don’t be so naive. Dolan is our last hope.

      reub it’s time to disembark from your cruise ship and board the SS Ntilikina. Soon everybody on your cruise ship will have food poisoning and be vomiting all over the decks. The SS Ntilikina may not have all the immediate creature comforts on its journey but the final destination makes it all worthwhile.

    23. I managed to get a luxury cabin on the SS Ntilikina and can confirm it’s a bargain.

    24. Id rather go with a vessel that’s proven to be seaworthy thank you. Possibly Brandon Knight?

    25. The SS Nikilitina may never ever make the deep water though. Knight has excelled under Horny under all weather conditions.

    26. Brandon Knight can’t get minutes in Phoenix because of his poor effort on defense. Sounds like a good guy for the Knicks to target.

    27. I’m at the beach now so posting nonsense isn’t mutually exclusive for me.

    28. Ok we need to pump the brakes on the seafaring metaphors

    29. well, after watching Melo capsize our chances to be a true contender one day, I think it’s only fair that we keep on sailing on.

    30. Anonymous scout says Knicks are overextending Kris. Per berman

      http://nypost.com/2017/01/02/nba-scout-rips-knicks-for-draining-kristaps-porzinigs/

      “He’s just turned 21,’’ said the NBA scout, who has worked for multiple teams. “They’re draining Kristaps, putting more minutes on him than anyone. Physically he grew in the offseason. It’s a tremendous amount of strain on new material — ligaments, tendons, knee joints for a big guy. It’s unbelievable stress on his body.’’

    31. Phil is a murderer. The Post article proves it. We need a mutiny for sure.

      What are the symptoms of scurvy?

    32. Anonymous scout says Knicks are overextending Kris. Per berman

      http://nypost.com/2017/01/02/nba-scout-rips-knicks-for-draining-kristaps-porzinigs/

      “He’s just turned 21,’’ said the NBA scout, who has worked for multiple teams. “They’re draining Kristaps, putting more minutes on him than anyone. Physically he grew in the offseason. It’s a tremendous amount of strain on new material — ligaments, tendons, knee joints for a big guy. It’s unbelievable stress on his body.’’

      To be fair, that same scout also said that Dirk was “close” to being a franchise player, so I don’t know if we should listen too closely to what that scout thinks.

    33. There are no legitimate excuses. This team is simply not very good.

      1. Melo’s contribution to his teams have been overrated throughout his career and now he’s slipping on both ends. He’s lost a little lift and ability to finish near the rim and he’s a negative defender.

      2. Rose is the essentially the same as Melo.

      3. Noah has been improving lately, but he’s a liability on offense and while still good on defense, he’s no longer a game changer.

      4. Lee is an upgrade over Afflalo, but he’s a secondary player

      5. KP has made some improvements, but he’s nowhere near the star status this team needed to be very good this year. He’s a plus defender but not a star defender and while his 3P shooting is better, his overall efficiency is not up at the real star level (though it was early in the season).

    34. Yeah I’m starting to see the light, guys.

      When we were winning games we were barely doing so against so so teams and only won them because KP played 40 minutes a night sometimes. That’s not sustainable. UGH. I wanted to believe so bad.

      We gotta tank. My hope is that Phil knows this. There was no real point last year bc we had no draft pick but this year we do. Its probably too late to super tank to the top of the lottery but we can probably geta top 10 pick still if we play our cards right. Willie H is part of the team’s future so keep him. But KQ, Holiday, Jennings, and Lee…it seems like all of these players could be enticing trade chips and all are on reasonable salaries. Holiday and Jennings are expiring, so you probably aren’t getting much more than some second rounders, but with the expanded roster next year and its a deep draft, I would love to add more second rounders to our draft stable. KQ should be able to net you something good too although I’d love to hold on to him if possible. So lets say you trade Jennings, Holiday and Lee for some expiring contracts/second round picks or maybe even another first rounder. And then tank to get a higher pick. We could have 4 or 5 picks this year if we cleared the team.

      rose expires. Maybe there’s a trade out there for him but don’t take back long term salary. If not just let him walk. Then you have Noah and Melo to deal with. I assume if we do this, Melo will want out in the off season and we can work out something with clippers or cavs or somebody that he would be open to going with. That leaves Noah. I think having one bad salary on a rebuilding team is not the worst thing in the world and he can be a coach on the court for KP and our other bigs. Even if he rebounds to MVP level Noah, him and KP alone with rookies and young players would not be enough to make us great next year so we can tank next year as well. Seems like if we do this right after next season we can be in good shape to start…

    35. I feel like reub is one of those people who learned to read by reading the Bible because that’s the only book their parents would let them have, except instead of the Bible, it was the NY Post.

    36. When we were winning games we were barely doing so against so so teams and only won them because KP played 40 minutes a night sometimes. That’s not sustainable. UGH. I wanted to believe so bad.

      We gotta tank. My hope is that Phil knows this. There was no real point last year bc we had no draft pick but this year we do. Its probably too late to super tank to the top of the lottery but we can probably geta top 10 pick still if we play our cards right. Willie H is part of the team’s future so keep him. But KQ, Holiday, Jennings, and Lee…it seems like all of these players could be enticing trade chips and all are on reasonable salaries. Holiday and Jennings are expiring, so you probably aren’t getting much more than some second rounders, but with the expanded roster next year and its a deep draft, I would love to add more second rounders to our draft stable. KQ should be able to net you something good too although I’d love to hold on to him if possible. So lets say you trade Jennings, Holiday and Lee for some expiring contracts/second round picks or maybe even another first rounder. And then tank to get a higher pick. We could have 4 or 5 picks this year if we cleared the team.

      rose expires. Maybe there’s a trade out there for him but don’t take back long term salary. If not just let him walk. Then you have Noah and Melo to deal with. I assume if we do this, Melo will want out in the off season and we can work out something with clippers or cavs or somebody that he would be open to going with. That leaves Noah. I think having one bad salary on a rebuilding team is not the worst thing in the world and he can be a coach on the court for KP and our other bigs. Even if he rebounds to MVP level Noah, him and KP alone with rookies and young players would not be enough to make us great next year so we can tank next year as well. Seems like if we do this right after next season we can be in good shape to start…

      You’re absolutely correct (that if they got rid of everyone but Noah, that’d be fine), but the issue is that it clearly isn’t going to happen. That’s the problem in a nutshell.

    37. Maybe Derrick Rose will dunk it again tonight and earn some all star votes. The SS Ntilikina needs to be set for sail.

      Then again, we did start the season off 3-6. We might be up for a good run of wins.

    38. I disagree Jowles. The only place on planet Earth with consistently optimistic perspectives on the Knicks would be Posting and Toasting.

    39. Ah, good old Poasting and Toasting. I never understood why posters here are so quick to insult each other, but rarely do they take shots at the low IQ content posted over at P&T.

    40. P&T is a good website and their post game write-ups are some of the best you’ll find. It’s a lighter take on Knicksketball and there’s a place for that. Not everybody wants to harp on Derrick Rose’s lackluster eFG% for 300 posts.

    41. I see no reason to get rid of KOQ. He’s good, he’s still young, and he’s cheap.

      Hernangomez is clearly part of the future.

      Holiday is good enough to keep around if the price is right.

      Kuz is fun, cheap, and may get better.

      I don’t mind Jennings in limited minutes as the backup or 3rd string PG at the right price , but he can’t have a key role because he takes too many bad shots and makes too many bad TOs.

      I doubt we are going to go all young, so keeping Lee around is fine unless a great deal comes along.

      Noah will be very hard to move and I don’t see it as a disaster to keep him around as an experienced vet to help out. By the time we rebuild and are ready to actually contend, he’ll be on his way out anyway.

      It’s Rose and Melo that HAVE TO GO. They aren’t any good. They are on the downside. Both may still have enough value to pick up some worthwhile assets (Melo for sure).

    42. I am going to predict that Carmelo goes on a big January run. It’s time. He can’t continue to play in such a mediocre fashion.

    43. I am going to predict that Carmelo goes on a big January run. It’s time. He can’t continue to play in such a mediocre fashion.

      So you think his entire career is a sample size problem? ;-)

    44. No. No. No. No. And no. This team is very close and can compete this year while getting much better next year. We need to fleece some stowaways off of the tanking tankers while we can. They are the perennial losers and second mates.

    45. Phil Jackson is a shitty GM, so I hope he stands pat and doesn’t make any moves at all. The fewer moves he makes, the better. Anything he does during this season is going to be to improve the Knicks short-term so they can squeak into the playoffs. Long-term thinking is just not something he does.

      Anybody who is hoping Phil embraces any sort of asset-collecting, long-term strategy is kidding himself.

    46. @59

      I didn’t say Phil is going to do the smart thing. I just stated what I think the smart thing is.

      Any full rebuild is contingent on getting Melo to agree to a trade. That’s not going to happen unless the Knicks are really going down in flames. It could potentially happen at year end though. If we miss the playoffs Melo may finally throw in the towel, Rose will walk, and we can finally begin the process of doing it right. The thing that’s been holding us up is Melo. The NTC was a huge error. It put Phil in a position of trying to appease Melo short term while also trying to add some good young pieces for the long term and KP

    47. Lance Thomas for Giannis Antetokounmpo. Who says no?

      Sure, but they’ll have to add AT LEAST a first rounder for the Knicks to absorb that contract.

    48. Also, did I miss the news about Jim Cavan being very publicly fired by FanSided over a fake author Twitter war?

      That guy has had a rough couple years. I miss his writing.

    49. Sure, but they’ll have to add AT LEAST a first rounder for the Knicks to absorb that contract.

      Really? Lance is that good? Very cool.

    50. @64

      man, how incredibly bizarre was the whole ordeal?

      who thought making a fake column with a fake author about a pornstar turned sportswriter and then starting a twitter war with her (apparently with her consent) was a good idea???

      Cavan’s writings were one of the main reasons I started following this website.

    51. @JK47

      My favorite description so far of Phil Jackson actually came from you earlier this year:

      To use the parlance of Mike Ehrmantraut, the whole Phil Jackson era so far is one giant half-measure.

      So I don’t think it’s fair of you to expect him to go hard in any direction. He’s not going to totally take apart the team like he should, but he’s also probably not going to do anything drastic to improve the team short term. The team is just not good enough and he’s not extreme enough to justify that.

      There have also been tiny signs that he’s starting to get it a bit — signing Ndour and Plumlee to multi-year unguaranteed deals. Getting at least a second year on the Kuzminskas contract. Getting three years on the Hernangomez deal. These are things that Jackson wasn’t doing earlier on that bit him to a degree with Lance Thomas and Galloway. That’s about $11m of cap space the Knicks could have had if they’d just pushed for longer term deals and paid them both a bit more ($5m for Jennings is no longer necessary with Galloway).

      I’m still hoping this season was just an elaborate ploy on Jackson’s part to convince Melo that he couldn’t win here and to accept a trade, but I doubt that’s the case.

      I also kind of don’t mind a PJ Tucker trade idea since the main point of it in my mind would be to give Hornacek another advocate in the locker room since Tucker played under him and to take a little power out of Rose and Melo’s hands. I wouldn’t give up anyone of long term consequence for him, but if you could get him for some protected second round pick… why not?

    52. The good news: Knicks are very close to a totally painless rebuild – but growing a pair of very hairy balls is necessary. 3 steps:

      1. Fire Phil Jackson before he can make the problems worse.
      2. Do not, under any circumstances or at any price (even the vet minimum or a 10-day contract) re-sign Rose.
      3. Force Melo out by any legal or illegal means. Try getting a couple of picks out of him (won’t be easy, though…)

      The team would not play worse, we could root for a young group of players and there would be some room and assets to gradually build a solid base before thinking of getting a free agent superstar a couple of years down the road. No reason to bring a max-salary player before the team has won 45-50 games with a young core for at least two consecutive seasons (this should be a team rule).

    53. If you realize that the following assumptions aren’t going anywhere:

      1. Dolan will continue as owner. He will continue his successful (in a business sense) agenda of bignamez=bigdollarz. Players like Rose/Melo have a positive $ value, so he will continue to value volume players as such. This is why if Phil is “fired” or “leaves” or whatever, as unlikely to me as that sounds, nothing changing about that aspect of the team. So let’s stop saying otherwise. The NTC is irrelevant because I doubt Melo was getting traded without it.

      2. Phil will continue as GM/President. He will continue to say dumb things. He will likely continue his policy of youth + vets. By the way, his vets, aside from Rose/Melo, have been pretty OK to me- Lee, Lopez, Jennings, with good contracts. His young player picks/acquisitions have been really good. O’quinn, Holiday, Kuz, Baker, KP, Billy, all positive players.

      3. As such, we will continue with a Starz + youth approach. We will not tank, we will not do a ‘full rebuild.’ EVER. We will not EVER trade Melo! We may even keep Rose [if we make the playoffs]! We will only let go of Noah if he declines. Phil has shown he has no qualms letting go of players on decline and he has shown no interest in giving up picks.

      4. We will continue to develop a future talent pool of KP, Hernangomez, O’quinn, Holiday, and maybe Baker, along with tweeners Kuz, Jennings, Lance.

      Phil has a philosophy that’s clear: better in the short term + better in the long term. He ain’t rebuilding/tanking. Other than the Bucks, OKC and Warriors, very few tanking teams have shown success, but that’s a different discussion. Let’s stop with the wishful BENCH MELO and TANKFEST lines.

    54. @69

      how many teams with tier 2 superstars making moves in free agency and by trades have won championships? how many have not?

    55. Dolan can successfully sell Porzingis as the big name. Fans can buy into that, specially if the team wins a few extra games with a young core next year.

    56. @66 the fake columnist had been there for a little while before the Mia Khalifa stuff. Fake columnist was always satire and someone who isn’t totally guileless might have picked up on that. I mean, they said he worked for two totally ridiculous sounding newspapers. His name is Burt Gertson. Like, come on. It’s reasonable to say Cavan made a mistake in denying that it was a satirical bit to begin with, but he was clearly trying to keep the gag going in his interview with Awful Announcing.

      I realize writers on the internet are a dime a dozen, but Jim is exceptional at it. I’m sure he’ll land on his feet, but it’s a tough situation to lose your job over. Don’t people get suspended anymore?

    57. If you want to tank then please explain how this is a strategy for bringing us rings. How many teams have succeeded at it?

    58. Also, it’s not like Phil’s roster isn’t working. A slump mid-year happens to everyone, especially with injuries (and no, it’s not his roster full of old vets that created the injuries- it’s been Lee and KP recently, the most important defensive two from our starters).

      We are atrocious on defense, and average in many other ways. This was unexpected. I did not expect the season to play out this way, and those of you who say they did, it was for different reasons, as far as I remember.

      Get better defensively, which may happen with Noah and KP both at better health, and with somehow Holiday/Lee/Lance getting more time, we’ll be very different. Also, fire Rambis and bitchslap Melo.

    59. Our only hope is that Jackson once again lucks into a high draft pick by virtue of his ineptitude.

    60. I can’t understand for the life of me how people are still arguing that tanking won’t produce championships when the freaking reigning champions are a direct result of tanking not once but twice

    61. All that said, yes, I agree with tanking, trading melo, not signing Rose. It’s just so unrealistic I hate reading it over and over again.

    62. Only failed posters wish Phil and the Knicks harm. You’ve already tanked, so to speak.

    63. How many tanking teams have won championships? How many have not?

      Reub, the only recent title teams that didn’t use top 10 picks to get its key players or trade top ten picks or players it drafted in the top ten to get its key pieces or trade FOR former top 10 picks still on their rookie contracts are Detroit and the Lakers. Even the Lakers traded for the #13 pick that became Kobe, who would have been a top 10 pick if not for his powerful agent scaring off smaller market teams. The Knicks have never traded a veteran for a top 13 pick in my lifetime.

      The early 2000s Lakers were built by trading a star for a lotto pick (Kobe) and by stealing Shaq from Orlando. Only reason the latter could happen is because max contracts and restricted free agency didn’t exist yet. They rebuilt again by trading a veteran for young guys (netting them Odom and Caron Butler, who was a top 10 pick still on his rookie deal) and tanking for Bynum. So they were pretty much built through the draft and by pursuing high pedigree young players.

    64. Bruno:

      I believe the Cavs is a free agency winner not a tanking winner.

      Of the last ten years, which of the following signed or drafted their way in? Spurs, Heat, Celtics, Lakers, Warriors, Cavs. I argue the only drafted/tank team was the Warriors. Going back further, it’s even rarer. It’s usually a mix of signings and smart/lucky drafts.

    65. latke, I made several posts explaining every single case in the last 20 years, and it’s been ignored… the troll is gonna troll.

      even the Pistons tore down their former roster with Grant Hill and then gave up Jerry Stackhouse to build their team.

    66. wetbandit, I couldn’t disagree more.

      Duncan was a 1st overall pick, Wade was a 5th overall pick, Pierce was 10th overall, LeBron was a 1st overall, Irving came on a tanking trade (trading Mo Williams who was valuable at the time for the corpse of Baron Davis), Tristan Thompson was the 4th overall that year.

      why the hell would KG, Allen, Shaq, LeBron or Bosh move to those teams if Wade or Pierce weren’t there?

      there hasn’t been a single team in the NBA that won a title without sucking prior and getting at least one foundational superstar via the draft, the Pistons are literally the only example.

    67. I mean the only way to get Melo out from under the NTC is to tell him that we are going full rebuild. I think you get more value at the deadline from the teams that think they have a long shot at contention.

      I usually fall in the optimist camp because I want to see good ball but I always believe the pessimists are right. In that vein, we should sell and see what we can do with Melo, Rose, Jennings. I would keep OQ and see how he does as a starter w more minutes. Also you can see what you have with Holiday and Wily a bit more clearly as well.

      ps: I think you might also be able to get Cle or GS and maybe SA to bite on Noah. He is seasoned, defense oriented, great passing big who is a good teammate. GS might look at that and say 2-3 years of him could give them an edge.

    68. I’m arguing that we’re just recovering from the Isaiah Thomas era. We’ve had virtually no first round picks and that’s now behind us thanks to Phil. He gave us KP and Willy. We’re normal again and on our way to greatness.

    69. I realize writers on the internet are a dime a dozen, but Jim is exceptional at it. I’m sure he’ll land on his feet, but it’s a tough situation to lose your job over. Don’t people get suspended anymore?

      He’s already back at the Cauldron and writing great stuff there again. But yeah, that they just went straight to “you’re fired” was asinine.

    70. and of course you need a lot of luck for the draft to work out, the Spurs were incredibly lucky to land Duncan and without him they would probably still have no titles.

      but like everything in life, if you don’t put yourself into the position to get lucky in the first place, it won’t ever happen.

      the Spurs are such a unique case because they got lucky with Robinson’s injury, then lucky again with Duncan… then their amazing front office did the rest…

    71. All that said, yes, I agree with tanking, trading melo, not signing Rose. It’s just so unrealistic I hate reading it over and over again.

      I can feel you there, but I dunno, what else are we supposed to talk about?

    72. I can’t believe that I’m taking time away from lounging on the beach in Magen’s Bay St. Thomas to try to keep you all positive. Snowing?

      82 degrees and a little overcast, 83 with clear skies tomorrow…that’s just plain cruel reub…have a dip and go feed some fish for me…

      we are winning tonight…a couple of good practices for the guys, some treatment for melo’s whole old body, a little refocus, our starting five back together – we’re going back to our winning (.512) ways…

    73. @wetbandit

      IMO tanking is used far more often as straw man style argument to argue against any sort of rebuild. It doesn’t happen very often. Most rebuilds are just teams dropping into the 20s in wins for a season or two while also trading veterans for young players. It’s only when people perceive a generational talent at the top of a draft or when teams screw up so badly that they have no way of being even a passably good team without sacrificing their future that teams truly tank.

      So call it whatever you want.. .All those teams, one way or another, invested in high draft picks when they needed to get better.

    74. I think a lot of people are thrown off by the idea of making your team intentionally worse, but that’s honestly just a semantics problem.

      Ricky Davis took almost 1500 shots in the season they sucked and drafted LeBron right after… yes, they weren’t intentionally trying to lose, but the end result is not the same?

    75. If you want to tank then please explain how this is a strategy for bringing us rings. How many teams have succeeded at it?

      The whole idea that there is some magic formula for becoming a serious contender is a fallacy. You can do it by draft, trade, FA, or a combination of all of them. The one thing that every successful rebuild will have in common is making “value oriented” decisions that eventually lead to having a few all stars on you team and enough remaining space to fill out the rest with good players.

    76. besides, the new CBA will make it much easier for teams to re sign their stars, which is yet another argument for building through high end draft picks

    77. Anyone heard of Alan Williams on Phoenix?

      http://www.boxscoregeeks.com/players/3127-alan-williams
      http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/alan-williams-2.html

      Guy is a monster rebounder who played in the CBA last year and dominated in scoring and rebounding, just like college, and just like in limited minutes in the NBA.

      I guess he played his way into a contract during 2015 Summer League and hasn’t really gotten much burn, which is incredible to me since they’re terrible.

    78. Latke:

      Yeah, completely agree with you. My issue is with the wholesale tanking that most people want- as in, trade away all vets, put all your eggs in the draft basket, get some high draft picks, and hope you don’t still suck when their time to sign comes. I argue that that technique has never worked.

      Bruno: Miami had a horrible year due to Mourning missing time (kidney failure), same as the Spurs and the Admiral. The Celtics (I had to look it up) were not tanking either, but trying to get better with vets like Kenny Anderson and gave away youngster Chauncey Billups. None of these teams gave up all their vets for an all-out long-term plan to lose

    79. Latke:

      Most rebuilds are just teams dropping into the 20s in wins for a season or two while also trading veterans for young players.

      Thanks, all I was unsuccessfully trying to say.

      Also: as I said above, as long as we have Dolan, there’s no shot of this happening

    80. I know wetbandit, but isn’t it kind of a moot point?

      yes they got lucky and were not intentionally terrible, but every championship team either got lucky like that or dismantled former teams with no hope of contending ever.

      Id rather the knicks start tanking intentionally now than wait to see if disaster strucks, and if it does not get stuck in perpetual mediocrity

    81. and yes I m very aware that Dolan won’t ever allow a full tank to happen

      still doesn’t mean it’s the right decision

    82. No, I get how you think its a moot point, but there’s a difference between losing a season or two due to injury with a decent team, and thus lucking into a difference-making draft choice, and losing in perpetuity with a horrible team and hoping your draft choices stick. One has been shown to work, one doesn’t. I’d hate to give up: Melo/Rose/Noah/Lee, and see KP/Holiday/Billy/et al leave a shitty team left behind. It’s better to keep Melo as a bridge, not keep Rose because he sucks, Lee and Noah as quality vets, and not suck forever. You’d still suck short-term and get some picks, and if you bench Melo right, you’d luck into a high pick or two, but you won’t end up in the bottom-of-the-NBA purgatory.

    83. well, I disagree, I would love to see all of those players gone except maybe Lee

      and jowles, the Suns are giving minutes to Bender , Len and Chriss over this guy for reasons I really don’t agree with

    84. The entire argument against tanking is BS. No one anywhere is saying to give away your best players so you get worse. They are saying it makes sense to trade short term value for long term value. That means I am willing to give you a player that is better now than the one I am receiving back (or pick I am getting back), but I expect that in 2-5 years my player is going to be better than the one I gave up for a net of “a fair trade”. The trades are still fair (or hopefully better than fair for your own team). The difference is timing. I know I will be worse in short term, but getting picks and younger players with upside will make me better long term than if I stood pat.

    85. @96…alan williams looks like he could score and rebound well…pretty thick guy who played 4 years in college (not always a good sign)…not sure his defense or ability to pass show through on his stats though, plus, we already have koq and willy…

    86. Stratomatic: agreed with everything except “No one anywhere is saying to give away your best players so you get worse” because they are.

    87. you can get quality veteran presence for cheap in free agency, you don’t have to spend your entire cap on quality veteran presence.

      I agree completely with stratomatic.

    88. Actually, you can argue we already followed the Miami and Spurs model of tanking when our “star” was injured and we went #4 in the 2015 lottery. So, in a sense, we’ve already “tanked” like those teams. They lost Robinson and Mourning in a year while we lost Melo for the year. They picked up Duncan at #1 overall and Wade at #5 overall because of the dropoff in wins, we picked up PorzinGod at fourth because of the dropoff in wins after Melo went down. The issue moving forward will be how wisely we choose to build around our young stud. Reilly was especially smart in that regard when he decided to immediately let Mourning go and begin the rebuild around Wade ASAP.

    89. Stratomatic: agreed with everything except “No one anywhere is saying to give away your best players so you get worse” because they are.

      I don’t think any serious basketball analysts are thinking in those terms. It always seemed to me that the “anti-tankers” would set it up the debate like that so they could attack it.

    90. so fouling is a big issue for us (one of a few)…here’s a list (per game) of who’s grabbing and holding and swatting folks on the arms (talking about you melo):
      KP – 3.7
      Melo – 2.8
      Noah – 2.7
      KOQ – 2.2
      Lee – 2.0
      Holiday – 1.7
      Rose – 1.5
      Lance – 1.5
      Jennings 1.4
      Willy – 1.4
      Kuz – 1.1

      i was surprised to see the difference in fouls between a good defensive team: Utah (19.2) and us (21.0) is actually pretty low…we attempt 21.4 ft’sw per game…maybe fouling isn’t that big a deal for us???

    91. I’m not anti-tank, but I do think there needs to be some definition to the term because we throw it around so often, and some of us have completely unrealistic views on how to go forward. Case in point- Theo says often we should bench Melo until he demands out, trade all of our over 30 talent, etc. Then we would suck but have picks, and then build a team. Trouble is, none of the successful winning teams we mentioned did that. They all were decent teams with bad luck, usually their star player is injured for a season or two, and they ended up with a good pick and had the luck to land a Duncan, Pierce, or Wade. They all had decent players around them on DAY ONE.

    92. Geo, I’ll be in St. Johns, Antigua or British Tortola tomorrow so you’ll have to tank without me.

      I still think that acquiring unloved talents from tanking, foolish teams who are gambling away their futures on a hope and a dream is a better way of improving.

    93. Do you not think some quality veteran presence is necessary for young players?

      There are tons of guys who want basketball jobs after they retire. I don’t believe there are restrictions on the number of employees that teams can have, so why not just hire them to be training/coaching staff and leave roster spots and salary cap space available for, you know, actual good players?

      I know that sounds crazy, but… your question… nah.

    94. Geo, I’ll be in St. Johns, Antigua or British Tortola tomorrow so you’ll have to tank without me.

      reub is Donald Trump confirmed

    95. I believe Alan Williams is currently most famous for being the son of the Phoenix Police Chief.

    96. @111

      That’s why I am saying it’s about “value”. IMO, you don’t just tank. You look at what you have, create a time table, see how players and their development fit together long term, and then try to build a mix of young and veteran talent so most of the group is peaking together. For example, KP will hopefully be peaking in 2-5 years. Melo, Rose, and Noah will all be worse by then. They can’t win now and have little chance of winning any time soon with 3 key players declining. So for example, suppose you gave up Melo and got worse this year, but got a young player, some picks, and a better pick this year. We might be worse now, but we’d be better in 2 years when those players we’re all rising together with KP. The trades have to be fair or better though. You don’t just dump Melo to tank. That’s why I was against Rose and Noah also. “Maybe” it made sense on the Melo timetable, but it made no sense on the KP timetable and I already knew that Melo and Rose were overrated and not a contender even if Noah came back close to 100% (which he didn’t). Melo makes sense on a team that is already a serious contender and maybe needs one more scorer.

    97. To continue my point:

      Popevich was especially savvy in how he rebuilt the Spurs by tapping into a market inefficiency of overlooked Euroleague talent by drafting Manu Ginobili (1999), Tony Parker (2001), Luis Scola (2002) and Leandro Barbosa (2003) in the six years following the 1997 Duncan pick. They were even able to package the 28th overall pick in Felipe Lopez plus veteran forward Carl Herrera to to get Antonio Daniels from the then Vancouver Grizzles in 1998.

      Now there are two important things to remember here about this rebuild.

      One, each of these picks were the product of impeccable scouting that provided amazing draft value. Ginobili was chosen 54th, Parker 28th, Scola 55th, and Barbosa 28th overall in their respective drafts.

      Secondly, and perhaps most importantly, these Ginobili, Parker, Scola, and Barbosa picks were only 4 of 12 picks the Spurs had accumulated and made during those years. So they actually made waaaay more draft mistakes than successes during their most successful draft period in franchise history. The Spurs actually scored big not only because of impeccable scouting but because they stocked so many picks they gave themselves a larger margin of error to find a diamond in the ruff to build around Duncan with.

      What does that tell us? That we should accumulate as many picks as possible and with a combination luck and good scouting we will also find a way to develop from within the draft.

    98. Theo says often we should bench Melo until he demands out, trade all of our over 30 talent, etc. Then we would suck but have picks, and then build a team. Trouble is, none of the successful winning teams we mentioned did that.

      It’s not a formula. It’s what the Knicks need:

      get rid of Melo, Rose and Phil Jackson as the first step and begin the healing.

      No talk of an intentional tank from me. Just ideas that often go way over the heads of the most obtuse and they end up accusing me of things I never said.

    99. Actually, looking at how the Spurs brilliantly took a 26th overall pick in the 2008 draft, George Hill, and turned him into the 15th overall pick in the 2011 draft in Kwhai Leonard makes me want to take take O’Quinn and or Hernangomez and turn it into a pick mid to late round pick in this stacked draft.

    100. It seems to me that this debate is predicated on a fallacy: that Melo is still a good player. He is not. We should get rid of him, not to tank, but simply because he is not a good player and eats up way too much of the cap and way too much usage.

      The idea that shipping Melo out is somehow intentionally tanking is just wrong. To be honest, I think we’d actually improve if we somehow managed to trade him which would be bad for the intentional tank for a higher pick, but probably good in that we’d likely receive more picks in whatever trade happened.

      But that NTC…Thanks Phil!

    101. Knight was in good stead with Horny in PHX, he’s an upgrade over Jennings (Rose will likely be renewed, given the marketability

      I was watching open court on youtube with coaches and GMs, no matter what, buck stops with the owner

    102. I think O’Quinn has value, but he’s not a big name and has never had the reputation of starting for a very good team like George Hill had.

      I would pursue a trade if he could give us I don’t know, the 15th pick, but his contract is good and he is good, so I would keep him if nothing like that showed up.

      and Brandon Knight is terrible, please not.

      he had one somewhat decent season with the Bucks and has been terrible again ever since.

    103. @122
      Very intriguing, b/c if the Knicks had 2 #1 picks in this upcoming draft it increases the chance of moving up for one of those great guard prospects. If a team offers up a likely mid-1st in this draft for OQ, you do the deal.

      Phil’s gonna play out this month before thinking about any serious trades, probably. I just hope that he continues his policy of NOT trading away #1 picks. But I do worry that he feels pressure to make the playoffs this year or be moved out by Dolan. If so, Phil might do something really dumb and trade away a #1 or Willy for some garbage.

      RE trading Melo: I’d love to see that happen, but we all know that the NTC makes it highly unlikely. Next best thing? Trade Rose. Maybe there are a couple/few teams out there that would take him (he is an expiring, so he’s got that in his favor). Maybe some sort of Rose for Dragic (and filler) or Rubio (and filler) could happen? Unlikely, I know.

    104. Problem is not many teams in the mid first really need a big man all that much. Maybe the Pacers or Washington? That’s about it I think.

    105. @130
      I don’t see a match with Cleveland for Rose. A Melo for Love swap is endlessly fun to speculate on. I bet Melo would waive his NTC for that one.

      Do the Cavs have a #1 pick this year? If so, I’d offer them BJ for that pick and cap filler (Dunleavy?).

    106. #129

      Chicago has an extra mid-rounder right now and they could definitely use another C with the way Mirotic is playing on offense.

    107. Speaking of which – Lebron has just recently commented on how the Cavs need another PG.

      Good thing our President of Basketball Operations has such a good relationship with LeBron

    108. #131

      Yes, the Cavaliers have a first round draft pick. I’d give them Jennings for it in a heartbeat.

    109. LeBron fancies himself a businessman. If so, he’d do business with Phil, even if only to try to rip him off.

      Hmm. Chicago again? Aren’t they wanting to unload Rondo? Sorry, but no. Could be a chance to get Grant back, though! :-)

      How about OQ to Chicago for MCW (cap match) and their #1? Nah, they wouldn’t.

      I still like Melo to Boston for Crowder, cap filler and a #1 pick. C’mon, Melo! (Ain’t happening).

    110. Cleveland doesn’t have a 2017 pick anymore, they just traded their own to get their 2018 pick from the Blazers back.

      it happened right after the Korver trade.

    111. Some of you deserve Isiah Thomas running the Knicks again.

      I’m all for Isaiah Thomas running the Knicks. He’s a great point guard and the Knicks don’t have one of those.

    112. @138

      me too, but I highly doubt they would trade their own 2017 to get their own 2018 back if they intended on trading this pick too… it would be much easier to just trade the 2017 one, both shouldn’t be very valuable anyway.

    113. and remember that LeBron has a player option for 2018-19… so it makes sense that they would want their 2018 pick, which would still be pretty low, but could provide some depth once veterans like Jefferson and Frye are completely finished, and the 2019 pick they sent Atlanta is reported to be heavily protected, in case LeBron leaves.

    114. There is no one on the Knicks save Porzingis that shouldn’t be considered for a 1st rounder. KOQ is untouchable in my mind, but if the pick is PHI/SAC/PHX/BKN unprotected I’d consider it.

    115. I’m with Ras1980. I’d take that 2018 Cavs #1 pick for BJ. If by chance LeBron were to get hurt (and he keeps getting older…), that pick might end up very nice. BJ might be a nice bench PG for them.

    116. The Cavs can’t trade us their 2018 pick if they’ve already traded their 2017 pick.

      I’d do Jennings for Kay Felder

    117. The moves you make should be dependent on where you are on the win curve. I’d have no problem with a team that was very close to contention paying Noah 4/$72m or even more. Sure, it’d be likely to come back to bite them at some point but flags fly forever yadda yadda yadda.

      The problem with the Knicks is they act like a team that is a piece or two away from contention when in reality they are nowhere close. So we get the worst of both worlds; the front end of the contracts we sign don’t do much for us and we still have to deal with the back end.

      Call it whatever you want (tanking, rebuilding, whatever) but teams that have nothing resembling even a decent core should NOT be signing long term, expensive (market value or above) contracts to players that don’t immediately constitute such a core all on their own (Curry, Durant, etc.). That does not mean actively trying to lose, it just means not prioritizing meaningless wins in the present. It means maintaining flexibility so you can make a play when an opportunity to acquire a truly exceptional player does arise. It’s really not rocket science.

    118. Hmm. Chicago again? Aren’t they wanting to unload Rondo? Sorry, but no. Could be a chance to get Grant back, though! :-)

      that rondo stuff is beyond bizarre…chicago owes him one more year at 13.4 mil…he must be an absolute dick to deal with (which is probably why hoiberg decided not to)…maybe they benched him cuz he’s only hitting the 37 fg%, he only averages 9 shots a game but, still…

      grant did have one decent game since the rondo benching, looks like he’ll get to show if he’s a player in the next couple of months…currently he’s shooting about 2% points worse than rondo…don’t really miss him (like jennings more as our backup pg), or tim jr (he can shoot, and, i’m sure he’ll hang around the league for a good while)…

    119. I’m all for Isaiah Thomas running the Knicks. He’s a great point guard and the Knicks don’t have one of those.

      i thought he played well for sac, and, was hoping we’d get him when things started getting weird in phoenix…i know though the 5’9″ thing turns off some gm’s (particularly phil)…

      some how, some way…i wish we could find the next league wide under appreciated pg…i know he’s our there…

    120. Some of you deserve Isiah Thomas running the Knicks again.

      The Knicks are 65-134 in the Phil Jackson era. Can’t argue with spectacular results like that!

    121. geo, the next year in Rondos contract is only partially guaranteed, if he gets waived before june of this year it only counts as three million

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