Knicks Morning News (2017.01.05)

  • [SNY Knicks] Knicks lose to Bucks at the buzzer
    (Wednesday, January 04, 2017 10:10:55 PM)

    The Knicks lost to the Bucks on Wednesday night, 105-104.

  • [SNY Knicks] Tonight’s Game: Knicks vs. Bucks
    (Wednesday, January 04, 2017 6:16:16 PM)

    The Knicks host the Bucks at Madison Square Garden at 7:30 p.m. on Wednesday night.

  • [SNY Knicks] Porzingis to sit out Wednesday night with sore Achilles
    (Wednesday, January 04, 2017 5:56:48 PM)

    Kristaps Porzingis is officially out for Wednesday night’s game against the Bucks, the team announced.

  • [SNY Knicks] Playing Kuzminskas more could provide boost to Knicks
    (Wednesday, January 04, 2017 11:30:35 AM)

    In the midst of a five-game losing streak, the Knicks are looking for answers and pondering if they have the pieces to remain competitive in all aspects.

  • [SNY Knicks] Knicks assign Maurice Ndour to D-League
    (Wednesday, January 04, 2017 10:06:56 AM)

    The Knicks assigned F Maurice Ndour to their D-League affiliate, the team announced Wednesday morning.

  • [NY Newsday] Giannis Antetokounmpo’s shot stuns Knicks at buzzer
    (Wednesday, January 04, 2017 11:36:53 PM)

    Jeff Hornacek smiled his “aw, shucks” smile before the game Wednesday and said sometimes, coaches can be too hard on players. Sometimes, they expect perfection when that isn’t possible. And sometimes, like he did on Monday, they get frustrated. They say their team may not be capable of playing defense. They get caught by television cameras looking like they’re walking away in a huff when their star player calls an ill-advised iso play.

  • [NY Newsday] ‘Greek Freak’ Giannis Antetokounmpo gets best of Knicks at MSG
    (Wednesday, January 04, 2017 11:34:57 PM)

    “The Greek Freak” is no Greek myth.

  • [NY Newsday] Kristaps Porzingis misses third game with sore Achilles
    (Wednesday, January 04, 2017 7:55:00 PM)

    Day after day, Kristaps Porzingis and the Knicks have said the same thing about his Achilles injury: Tomorrow — it’ll be better tomorrow. Problem is, all those tomorrows are adding up.

  • [NYPost] Knicks better find some answers or this season is lost
    (Wednesday, January 04, 2017 10:15:32 PM)

    The whole thing played out as a three-act play from hell: ball in the air, ball through the net, final buzzer. And with one last tour-de-force, Giannis Antetokounmpo had edged the Knicks ever closer to an abyss that just two weeks ago would have seemed utterly unthinkable. Yes, this is the play you’ll see time…

  • [NYPost] Medical expert’s take on Kristaps Porzingis’ injury
    (Wednesday, January 04, 2017 6:59:30 PM)

    With Kristaps Porzingis missing his third straight game with a sore Achilles tendon, a leading medical expert in foot/ankle injuries told The Post the 7-foot-3 Latvian is suffering from tendinitis, should play less minutes and go on a special program to strengthen the tendon. The good news, the expert from Northwestern Memorial Hospital said, is…

  • [NYPost] Knicks suffer buzzer-beating crusher after blowing big lead
    (Wednesday, January 04, 2017 5:18:31 PM)

    That was a heartbreaker. The Knicks’ losing streak hit six games as they got “freaked’’ out in the fourth quarter. NBA’s new superstar Giannis Antetokounmpo stunned the Garden with a buzzer-beating 15-foot fadeaway from the foul line over Lance Thomas, capping their comeback and pulling off a Bucks’ 105-104 victory. Milwaukee rallied from 14 points…

  • [NYPost] Jeff Hornacek a lot softer on Carmelo than MSG Network
    (Wednesday, January 04, 2017 6:16:02 AM)

    The Carmelo Anthony clip has gone around the internet by now, but, interestingly, MSG Network’s postgame show was the first to show it Monday night. The video, leading off the program after the Knicks’ 115-103 loss to the Magic, shows Anthony dribbling the ball on the deep left wing and clearing out his mates, essentially…

  • [ESPN] Thursday’s Knicks News: Antetokounmpo’s buzzer-beater silences MSG
    (Thursday, January 05, 2017 5:12:29 AM)

    Thursday’s Knicks News: Antetokounmpo’s buzzer-beater silences MSG

  • [ESPN] Jeff Hornacek sees Knicks ‘making strides’ after sixth straight loss
    (Thursday, January 05, 2017 1:56:19 AM)

    Jeff Hornacek sees Knicks ‘making strides’ after sixth straight loss

  • [ESPN] NBA Rumor Central: Would P.J. Tucker be a good fit for the Knicks?
    (Wednesday, January 04, 2017 4:32:16 PM)

    NBA Rumor Central: Would P.J. Tucker be a good fit for the Knicks?

  • [NYTimes] Frank Ntilikina, a Top N.B.A. Prospect, Is Learning to Play With Fire
    (Thursday, January 05, 2017 1:13:29 AM)

    Ntilikina, an 18-year-old point guard for SIG Strasbourg in France, has enviable collection of physical tools. The goal is to wield those tools more aggressively.

  • [NYTimes] Giannis Antetokounmpo Sinks Knicks With Last-Second Jumper
    (Thursday, January 05, 2017 4:57:03 AM)

    Antetokounmpo, who finished with 27 points, hit a buzzer-beating 15-footer, and Milwaukee overcame a 14-point fourth-quarter deficit, dealing the Knicks their sixth straight loss.

  • [NYDN] Greek Freak’s slaying of Knicks beginning of his rise to fame
    (Wednesday, January 04, 2017 7:46:48 PM)

    The special ones seem to have the uncanny ability to mesmerize you and then rip your heart out.

  • [NYDN] Giannis Antetokounmpo sinks Knicks in 105-104 loss to Bucks
    (Wednesday, January 04, 2017 7:33:40 PM)

    The Knicks improved on the defensive end, but it wasn’t enough to stop the bleeding.

  • [NYDN] Knicks star Kristaps Porzingis misses 3rd straight game
    (Wednesday, January 04, 2017 3:02:01 PM)

    The Knicks are taking a cautious approach with Kristaps Porzingis.

  • 184 replies on “Knicks Morning News (2017.01.05)”

    Rough loss last night.
    I do have to say that I though the defense was MUCH improved last night. Even Melo.
    Lance Thomas was solid on Giannis until the last 5 minutes when he turned into a fouling machine. He played good D at the end, and even though it’s asking a lot, I do blame Rambis and Rose for not having a clear plan to double him with the clock running down. Or maybe there was a plan and Rose just didn’t do it. Hard to know. Giannis IS a great passer and decision maker, but I’d much rather Malcolm Brogdon take the last shot from 22+ feet rather than Giannis.

    I still have a problem with those all bench units that Hornacek likes to throw out there at the start of the 2nd quarter. It’s a small sample but in 56 minutes, lineups with Jennings, Holiday, and KOQ (and without Rose/Melo/Porzingis) have an ORtg of 85.6 and a DRtg of 120.2. I’m no math expert but that is terrible. Of course we had no KP last night, but I think Hornacek has to stagger some minutes in the 1st and 3rd quarter so that one of Rose/Melo/Porzingis is on the floor with that crew. If KP is not available then take Rose out with 4 minutes left in the 1st/3rd and bring him back with the 2nd unit at the start of quarters 2 and 4.

    We lost the game in the first 2+ minutes of the 4th quarter with a lineup that has been terrible. That’s the coach’s fault.

    The way Rose just looked at him at the end, I find it hard to believe that he was told that he was supposed to double there, even though yes, he clearly should have. So I blame the coaches for that.

    I just have a hard time blaming coaches for in-game execution except for when the players he has in are not good at executing together, so I agree those first 2 minutes of 4th were killer… we had zero clue what the offense was trying to do…

    Oh yeah, I don’t blame the coaches for Rose and Melo just playing dumb iso stuff at the end, as that’s what they do. I do think it’s fair to blame the coaches for not telling them to double Giannis if he had the ball with just a few seconds left and was not yet shooting. Plus, I tend to agree that they should have called a timeout before they inbounded the ball with 8 seconds left.

    I still think the last defensive possession was good anyway. What I don’t get is why Melo was the inbounder on the Rose turnover (but honestly it could have been a foul), shouldn’t he be the one the designated shooter for free throws? Sometimes I don’t get Hornacek (but I still like him).

    the timeout with 8 should have been called in retrospect… especially after seeing what they tried to “accomplish” with their inbounds play… maybe i give them too much credit… they could have had someone flying into the backcourt… they could have set a bunch of screens… they could have done anything that resembled a “normal” inbounds play… yes the defense tightens up, but figure it out guys…

    Maybe Melo will finally realize the Knicks have no chance of becoming major contenders as currently constructed and we can finally move on to building around KP with a few of the young guys, this year’s draft pick, and whatever we can get for him in a trade. He’s got to want at least one shot at a ring more than NY. He has his entire life ahead of him to live and do business in NY.

    The Knicks have a “super-team” filled with stars. How could Melo think that they can’t contend?

    I don’t get how people are still convinced that Melo might understand something about team-building and strategy.

    Honestly – if they play defense like they played last night and we get KP back and healthy, this team will be fine. Not a contender but has a reasonable shot at the 2nd round, which is the ceiling even the optimists were hoping for. The question is whether we can really play defense like we did last night.

    I really thought the defense was pretty darn good.

    Defense was ok it seemed… BUT who knows how that 1st half looks without us staying hot from 3

    We’re a slightly below average offense and a dumpster tier defense and there are still people that think we have a “reasonable shot at the 2nd round”.

    We’re a slightly below average offense and a dumpster tier defense and there are still people that think we have a “reasonable shot at the 2nd round”.

    you must’ve missed the part where I said if we play defense like we played last night. but welcome.

    looks like the refs did miss a 5 second violation on Giannis, who literally backed Lance down from 8.6 sec mark all the way to <1 second. Can't really expect them to call that though.

    Until Lance’s foul fest in the last few minutes, and subtracting some of the awful live-ball turnovers to start the 4th – 8 transition points in the first 3+ minutes which were not the fault of the defense, it was objectively good. But whatever.

    Yeah, Frank, give all those open threes to an average team and say goodbye to your dreams

    I think that the Knicks played good defense, but yes, the Bucks’ lack of three-point shooting skills also played well into the Knicks’ problem areas on defense.

    @18

    Exactly. At the moment we are incapable of defending the three, which in modern NBA is a huge problem. How’s it goink?

    I’m pretty sure Hornacek was more than happy to give open 3’s to guys that can’t shoot 3’s. I’m pretty sure opposing defenses are happy when Lance, Rose, and Brandon Jennings shoot 3s.

    (Teletovic did get too many open shots although he did hit 3/8 so it’s not like he missed more than you would expect).

    Look, I’m not saying we turned into the Spurs defense. But it was worlds better than the previous few games.

    I have a hard time thinking that “let them shoot uncontested threes” was part of the gameplan. I think it was much more an issue of “heh, they can’t shoot anyway, let’s keep doing what we do”.

    Giannis a -11 on the night. Was interesting to watch him. It kind of felt like a high school game. First, in that as a player he is still pretty unpolished. I don’t want to say the GF is ungainly out there but he isn’t quite as graceful as you would expect. He sort of lopes and longstrides all over the place and it’s a lot of herk and jerk. Highly effective of course. He’s so long he can turn the corner on guys just by lowering his shoulders. He’s definitely an unbelievable athlete and not just for being 6’11, but he’s more of a flailing windmill of arms and legs rather than the precision engineering of a Jordan or Durant or the bulldozer finesse of Lebron.

    But what’s amazing to me is how much of a man amongst boys he looks out there physically. In the fourth quarter, I sort of had the feeling of watching a pro prospect taking a night off the AAU circuit to play on his high school team. That’s how much he seems to overmatch other guys out there.

    I’d worry about all the contact his style invites catching up to him. He isn’t quite the tank Lebron is. He needs a better perimeter game to survive the long haul. But he looks like a surefire HOF already right now.

    As for the Knicks, horrible game to lose. We have had some good luck in close games so far so one was bound to go against us. But to let Monroe, Mirza and the Jet run wild like that is kind of inexcusable.

    the Bucks staff say all the time that Giannis just understands the game at an extremely high level and it definitely showed last night.

    what won Milwaukee the game was his understanding that his role in the fourth was driving on Lance Melo and Noah and force them to foul him… he knows defenses are going to pack the paint and force him to either shoot or drive into traffic, but he’s so insanely athletic that he puts his defenders at a lose lose situation all the time.

    he’s gonna be completely unguardable once he starts hitting threes at a league average mark, and it’s going to be very soon.

    that’s why I don’t buy into the whole narrative of the Knicks containing him well.

    against a player like him you either contain him for the entire game or you will get burned

    We lost the game in the first 2+ minutes of the 4th quarter with a lineup that has been terrible. That’s the coach’s fault.

    Not exactly, but it seems reasonable that we should try to not put an all bench lineup out there. The whole team except O’Quinn sucked in the 4th quarter. We got outscored 32-17. Rose was 1-6 with 3 turnovers.

    Greg Monroe is having a lowkey good season. I still think it would have been fun to see him in the triangle, even with his limitations on defense.

    Our “defense” looked OK because we limited our turnovers for three quarters until the last. Milwaukee’s entire offense is predicated around forcing the turnover and converting them into points in the transition game. Once our offense showed its true colors with players stagnating the ball and making mental mistakes the Bucks offense capitalized and took over from there.

    RE: Giannis. His versatility is unmatched in the game today. He can function as a point guard, slasher on the wing, and a big man in the paint at elite levels in every capacity. And like someone said, he has a very clear idea of how and when to function as each offensive type in the proper game context.

    Someone tweeted an awesome Giannis story. He apparently was pissed off at Kidd when Kidd benched him during his second year (and Kidd’s first with the team). He didn’t really know anything about Kidd’s playing career, so he looked him up while pissed off (in a sort of “Who does he think he is?” way) and as he was reading Kidd’s resume he said to himself, “Okay, I guess I really should listen to what this guy has to say.”

    @25
    Rose had a really bad 4th quarter. Despite the bad lineup to start the 4th, the starters were in there with the lead for quite a while and gave it up at the end.

    I still think the Knicks should have called timeout on that last possession, if for no other reason than to get Noah off the court and eliminate any possibility of him shooting free throws.

    All of the tank talk (which I do agree with if it’s done stealthily considering all the great young talent in the draft), trade ideas, and fire Phil sentiments feels a little panicky at times. Not that they aren’t good ideas, it’s just that sometimes everything feels like a loss of faith or hope. The team is definitely hard to watch during this rough patch. Hell it’s even hard to watch during the good times this season, because the flash of the offensive potential obscures the lack of a cohesive defense. But..this isn’t a team of scrubs, so they can turn it around by Feb or March and be a problem in the postseason. Rose statistically isn’t playing great, but he’s giving the offense exactly what it needs. Melo can’t move well enough to play the wing position full time anymore. Lee isn’t getting enough good looks. Lance is hurt and it will linger all season if he doesn’t get rest and treatment. And this team has no defensive structure.

    If I may, let me try to explain my idea from yesterday about putting Melo at the 4 a little differently.
    PROS:
    1. It opens up the floor for the Rose drives and that is huge for the offense.
    2. Starting Lance at SF, when healthy, makes the defense more mobile and versatile considering he and Melo can guard both forward spots (not at great or elite levels- but the versatility is there). Plus Thomas can also check 2’s in a pinch.
    3. With KP at the 5, it gives him better opportunity for boards and lane protection.
    4. Opens up playing time for Mr Instant offense, Kuz

    CONS:
    1. Wear and tear on Melo & KP this season.
    2. Noah will be relegated to the bench, which really isn’t optimal considering his age and recent injury history.
    3. One of KOQ & Willy will have to be traded because we can’t trade Noah, unless SA, GS, or CLE really wants him.

    It’s not optimal, but I think the pros outweigh the cons. Melo’s not getting traded, and that hurts our outlook moving forward, so we must play with the hand…

    Even if we began tanking (very wishful thinking), it’s starting to appear that Frank Ntilikina will be out of reach. No Ntilikina + No Lonzo Ball makes me sad.

    by the way, as one of the captains of Team Derrick Rose Optimism, I’m pretty ready to say that while the “Realists” weren’t exactly right (he hasn’t been one of the worst players in the NBA this season – far from it), that he is definitely not the correct answer to our medium-long term PG problem. The basketball IQ is just not there on either end of the court, even if his physical ability looks mostly back.

    Renouncing Rose and Jennings would clear up about $25MM of space, of which $5MM at least will probably disappear to KP’s raise, higher cap holds for roster spots, and draft pick cap holds. We’d prob have to trade 2 of KOQ/Lance/Kuz in order to make a competitive offer for Jrue Holiday, who i think is the most gettable of any of the PGs we would want.

    Rose’s free throw rate has improved and his shot distribution is better (he’s shooting at the rim much more), so he might be an averageish player on offense, but his defense makes that still a big net negative.

    The best FA point guards not named cp3 or steph curry look to be Patty Mills, Jeff Teague and George Hill. I think Jrue is a step below those guys, but he’s younger and a better defender than Mills & Teague.

    I could be wrong but I don’t think anyone in the realist camp predicted that Rose would necessarily be one of the worst players in the NBA. A lot of us pointed out that he had been one of the worst for the last two seasons, and for that reason he was highly unlikely to be good this season. Whether that manifested itself in him being merely pretty bad (as he has been) or a third straight season as maybe the NBA’s worst player was somewhat irrelevant, as the trade only made sense if you operated under the assumption that he could actually be above average (like Lopez).

    For the last few games we’ve largely seen the bottom of the NBA version of Rose, so hopefully the early season run-of-the-mill badness was a mirage and we can tank away.

    I mean, .045 WS/48 is hardly a big defeat for the anti-Rose crowd. And it’s trending down.

    He has hit 12 three pointers all year. His ts% is 50.5%. His a/to is less than 2.

    He has dunked a few times. I will give him that. But to me, signing him to anything more than Langston Galloway money would be extremely dumb. He can fill a role as a backup pg but he is not a starter level nba talent anymore.

    I still would try to get Tim Frazier if I was the Knicks just to have as a backup going forward.

    I mean, .045 WS/48 is hardly a big defeat for the anti-Rose crowd. And it’s trending down.

    He has hit 12 three pointers all year. His ts% is 50.5%. His a/to is less than 2.

    He has dunked a few times. I will give him that. But to me, signing him to anything more than Langston Galloway money would be extremely dumb. He can fill a role as a backup pg but he is not a starter level nba talent anymore.

    This is exactly why the anti-Rose crowd is not convincing – you guys keep bringing up his TS and A/TO ratio, etc. and not how the TEAM does. The absolute truth is that the TEAM offense is clearly better with Rose on the floor. No matter how you adjust the lineups (with or without Melo, KP etc.), Rose is a positive force for the offensive side of the floor. He’s just been really bad on defense, and that’s in comparison to Brandon Jennings, who is no great shakes either.

    Could he be better on offense? Of course. But if you go to NBAwowy and look at how players play with Rose and without Rose, and you see the beneficial effect of his presence on the offensive side:

    Here they are by player name and change in TS with Rose OFF the floor (ie. negative is worse with Rose off):

    Jennings –> -7.2
    Melo –> -1.5
    Lee –> +2.8
    Hernangomez –> +1.1
    Noah –> -13.1
    Holiday –> -4.7
    Porzingis –> -7.5
    O’Quinn –> -5.9
    Lance –> +1.3
    Kuzminskas –> -6.8

    it’s just that he seems to give it all back on the defensive end, and if you read Jared Dubin’s excellent article on fansided today, you can’t have a defensive zero at the point of attack unless you have other great defenders.

    and that on TV it is so clear to us when he’s missing KP on the pick-and-pop or Noah on the roll over whatever and he throws up a brick.

    Yes, we need a guard who break defenses down off the dribble and draws them in as he gets to the basket. No, Rose should not be the player we turn to fill that role for us down the road. You can see that he rarely passes out of those situations in favor of throwing up a ridiculous circus shot at the basket.

    This is why getting a top tier PG in the draft is so important for us that we absolutely, definitely, indisputably tank this season away. I cannot say it enough right now.

    Tank, tank, tank!

    The Bucks will be a tough playoff opponent for anyone in the East if Middleton is all the way back. They could benefit from picking up a guy like Lou Williams or someone cheap that can get to the line a bit without being a zero from 3pt range, even if he’s a weak defender; they can make up for it with most lineups.

    an added note on Rose’s effect on other players (offensively) —

    KP always talks about how much easier life is with Carmelo on the floor yada yada yada

    with Carmelo on the floor and Rose off– KP’s usage is 25.3 and TS is 50

    with Carmelo off the floor and Rose ON — KP’s usage is 31.4 and TS is 60.9

    i’m not a big fan of on/off numbers and certainly not ts% differences but if you want to play that game… rose and jennings have identical ortg’s…

    Go back and read the season prediction thread. All the “pessimists” pegged this team as exactly what it is. I was wrong in one way, I thought this would be a shitty offense and average defense, and I had it backwards. But I still figured it would be a below-.500 team. I think I predicted 37 wins. That’s the exact pace this team is on. Most of the people here derided as “pessimists” made similar projections.

    Reub predicted 55 wins. Ruruland was more conservative, had us at 48-54 wins. Er had us at 50 wins. But let’s talk about how the “pessimists” (realists) were actually wrong, because Rose has been merely bad instead of apocalyptically terrible. Rose has played, incidentally, quite similar to the way he played two seasons ago. He was a pedestrian player then, and he is a pedestrian player now. Not a star, not even an average point guard. He’s a below average NBA point guard, period, full stop. You can find guys like that for WAY cheaper.

    Funny thing is, when I first came to Knickerblogger many years ago, I was what you’d call an “optimist.” I clashed with the realists all the time. Gradually I came to learn that they were generally right about most things. I learned some things about basketball and advanced stats that I didn’t know before.

    If you can’t beat ’em, join ’em.

    Why do you people want to get rid of Rose and a few others just to spend the money maxing out some PG (any PG), like the team is a fucking pg away from contending…

    That’s so stupid and similar to the shit you guys criticize Dolan for!

    We have to build the team first, get the complementary pieces first. We need solid, YOUNG players on small, manageable contracts before we can even think of bringing a max-salary player.

    Chris Paul (just an extreme example – he’s NOT coming here before age 35)”would at most elevate us to a second round exit – and then what?

    We can’t get rid of Melo until two years from now, but we can try to rebuild the team until the time when his contract expire and then we can think of what we need at that moment.

    Maxing-out some random free agent every fucking year without having a decent core is totally retarded!

    Why is 90% of this board so similar to Dolan?

    Let’s win 48 games without a max-salary free agent before we think of getting a star.

    Yeah, the “sign Jrue Holiday” idea is not one I’m too happy with either.

    Phil Jackson doesn’t really understand player valuation, so he’s not going to be able to build a winner here. Giving out market value contracts to players in their thirties is how you build a bad team. Let’s just hope he doesn’t do too much more damage before he leaves.

    Why is 90% of this board so similar to Dolan?

    Stockholm Syndrome.

    i’m reading all this and still sitting pretty aboard the SS Ntilikina

    So am I…so am I…

    It’s bizarre to me that “optimists” still exist for a team that is as dysfunctional as ours. Despite all this losing, P&T’ers still maintain that building through the draft is “crap shoot” and that Melo, Rose, and Noah are very good at basketball because…reasons.

    I’m generally opposed to tanking out of principle, but the new CBA really does make tanking much more rewarding– nearly impossible to sign a true star in FA with the new rules in place. So sure, I would not be too sad if we tanked. But it’s not going to happen.

    The Optimists are the true reason Knicks fandom can’t have nice things. Had they held this shitty franchise accountable for its gross incompetence the past 17 years or so we’d have a better team to show for it today. But these are the same people who buy Knicks tickets, merchandise, and watch MSG on a nightly basis as if it were attending mass.

    @51

    It will happen by natural result of the Knicks team which has been assembled. They aren’t very good, are aging fast and seem to be falling apart. We’ve actually been relatively healthy all things considered. But Noah, Melo and Rose were already nursing injuries last night and we’re not even halfway done for the season.

    There’s every reason to be cynical about the Knicks in the 21st century, but no reason to be more cynical today than yesterday.

    Last night’s game was a coinflip. Two ~.500 teams battling for a 1-point win. Thomas near-perfectly guarded an illegal move (5 sec.) by one of the league’s very best players — a guy who, according to WP48, might be the MVP of the league this year, and whose team would be worse than the Sixers without him — and that player then hit a shot that has a roughly ~40% chance of going in.

    It was a coin flip. The rest of the game — the fact that it came to a final possession, which will forever be burned into our sorry collective consciousness — went exactly as a game between two evenly matched teams will go. A great team would have blown them out. A terrible team wouldn’t have let Giannis win the game on a coin flip because they would have been down by ten. A .500 team should have more opportunities to lose games by a single bucket. That’s what the numbers suggest.

    It’s not a big deal, last night. Melo is not good. Rose is not good. Noah is good for 15 mpg. Kyle O’Quinn is woefully underused. Courtney Lee is the definition of average. Porzingis is hurt and currently overrated (although teams are often better off with their overrated players than without, because limited salary resources/roster slots). Lance Thomas inexplicably has a non-minimum NBA contract.

    We knew all of this. Last night shouldn’t change anything. We are who we thought we were.

    Despite being firmly on the “realist” side of the fence, I will admit I get extremely triggered when I’m reminded that KP is currently overrated by Knicks fans and that Jokic, Turner, and Towns may be better.

    Yeah, the “sign Jrue Holiday” idea is not one I’m too happy with either.

    Phil Jackson doesn’t really understand player valuation, so he’s not going to be able to build a winner here. Giving out market value contracts to players in their thirties is how you build a bad team. Let’s just hope he doesn’t do too much more damage before he leaves.

    To be fair, Holiday is only 26. Giving out market value players to 26 year olds is not such a bad thing.
    I’d be fine with a Holiday signing because he’d immediately be the best defensive PG we’ve had since, well, Charlie Ward? Clyde?

    Despite all this losing, P&T’ers still maintain that building through the draft is “crap shoot” and that Melo, Rose, and Noah are very good at basketball because…reasons.

    Building through the draft IS a crapshoot. For every OKC there is Sacramento, Orlando, Charlotte (even though they’re good now, no one would seriously consider them more than a fringe possibility at conference finals), 76ers, etc. Even some of the teams that have “built through the draft” and are good now didn’t tank to get there (GS, Boston, SA, etc.). The draft is a high variance strategy, and even with a good management team in place, there are a lot of misses.

    Speaking of Noah — in many ways he basically is playing to his career stats right now minus the free throw shooting. He’s a bit lower usage than in his best CHI days (13 now vs. ~16 or so back then). but his eFG/blocks/steals/rebounds/assist/TO rates are pretty much at his career averages. Pretty interesting considering how down on him we’ve all been (me prominently included). The 4 year contract is still awful but his production has been better than I thought.

    @54

    Eh, its a lot of self-hatred. The grass is always greener on the other side. Of that group the only who I’d still rather have than KP is Towns and I am a huge Jokic fan BTW.

    What does being an optimist even mean on this board?

    I consider myself an optimist but hope we tank this year for one of the PG’s. You can be real about this team and still notice that we have KP, Willy and all our draft picks going forward. We still might fuck it up but let’s cross that bridge when we come to it.

    @56

    “If the rule you followed brought you to this, of what use was the rule?”

    –Cormac McCarthy, No Country For Old Men

    You talk of high-variance. We’ve refused to rebuild from the ground up via the draft for at least seventeen years and have nothing to show for it but a second-round exit from the playoffs in 2013. And, yet, despite this historical fact there are fans like you out there who still want to cut corners by adding another middling, overpriced FA to patch a crumbling foundation. I don’t understand why fans are so scared of taking a new route, its the old route that scares me.

    The Optimists are the true reason Knicks fandom can’t have nice things. Had they held this shitty franchise accountable for its gross incompetence the past 17 years or so we’d have a better team to show for it today. But these are the same people who buy Knicks tickets, merchandise, and watch MSG on a nightly basis as if it were attending mass.

    oh stop it. the realists are also watching and buying things. I’d say it’s actually the realists that are the REAL problem — the people that “know better” yet still do it.

    The true reason is that NYC has 10million people in it and countless more than grew up in NYC area and moved out. Then there is the tourist trap that is NYC. There’s just an enormous fan base out there, realist/optimist or not. If we were in Sacramento and the fan base was much smaller and more fair-weather, then yes, you’d prob see more heads roll.

    oh stop it. the realists are also watching and buying things. I’d say it’s actually the realists that are the REAL problem — the people that “know better” yet still do it.

    The true reason is that NYC has 10million people in it and countless more than grew up in NYC area and moved out. Then there is the tourist trap that is NYC. There’s just an enormous fan base out there, realist/optimist or not. If we were in Sacramento and the fan base was much smaller and more fair-weather, then yes, you’d prob see more heads roll

    Amen Frank. Even if everyone on this blog stopped watching/going to games we would still sell out(especially with Porzingis here). It’s sad that some here need to put themselves on a high horse to feel superior to the average fan.

    You talk of high-variance. We’ve refused to rebuild from the ground up via the draft for at least seventeen years and have nothing to show for it but a second-round exit from the playoffs in 2013. And, yet, despite this historical fact there are fans like you out there who still want to cut corners by adding another middling, overpriced FA to patch a crumbling foundation. I don’t understand why fans are so scared of taking a new route, its the old route that scares me.

    I talk about a high variance strategy and you talk about the n of ONE of this franchise. OK.

    Look, I don’t disagree that it would be fun to tear it down, trade everyone, get draft picks, watch them grow with KP. But a) it’s not going to happen short of us really imploding the rest of this season (at which point it seems possible/probable that Phil will be let go, and b) it’s just not any sort of certain thing that the outcome would be better (it’d be more interesting, that’s for sure). Orlando and Charlotte had hotshot young GMs from OKC and Portland and 4+ years from their teardown are nowhere near even semi-contention. Never mind Sacramento or Phoenix.

    Being a fan is an intrinsically irrational thing. Very few of us actually have the time in our lives to be watching all these games, and yet we still do it rather than doing actually productive things. For pete’s sake, almost be definition the people posting on this board and wasting all their time and energy fighting about realism/optimism are being irrational.

    Trying to force fandom into boycotts and whatever you’re talking about is basically impossible. Even the most virulent realists are still watching the games.

    Give me the “crapshoot,” which has a non-zero chance of working out, over the strategy that is a guaranteed failure any time. Signing second and third tier “stars” like Carmelo Anthony, Joakim Noah and Jrue Holiday is a strategy that will fail 100% of the time.

    #62

    What are you talking about? Charlotte, Phoenix, Sacramento and Orlando didn’t draft a franchise caliber player who their organizations can built around like Kristaps Porzingis. You guys act as if we have no young assets to build around for the future. Now is the time to surround him with young, cheap talent before he matures into his physical prime. Because while its true that the NBA draft is an uncertain crapshoot there is also the certain guarantee that we’ll continue to field subpar Knicks teams so long as this front office continues to purse a half-measure approach of overpaying for middling, aging FA talent.

    Give me the “crapshoot,” which has a non-zero chance of working out, over the strategy that is a guaranteed failure any time. Signing second and third tier “stars” like Carmelo Anthony, Joakim Noah and Jrue Holiday is a strategy that will fail 100% of the time.

    Exactly my point.

    I hope we can win some games and be back to playoff picture. We are just 3 games below .500 this is critical stretch whether we will tank or will make a playoff push. Trade deadline is coming.
    Amazingly, the kings are 8th in the west.

    I really don’t get the ridiculousness of this logic I am reading. Its absolutely insane.

    Its like complaining about a 20 percent chance of success in changing an approach, while ignoring the fact that there is a 100 percent chance of failure if you continue doing the same thing.

    I don’t get why so many are eager to see us get waxed by Lebron, the Raptors or even the Celtics in the first round. If this team dramatically improves its defense and late game execution then sure, go for it. I just don’t see it happening.

    Think about how much trade value some of our young assets have had over the years, even shite players like Shump and Landry Fields could have netted us Kyle Lowry. No, building through the draft does not guarantee we’ll find Durant and Westbrook. The draft will, however, assist in building a foundation with actual assets that can be used to provide paramount flexibility.

    While most of us are busting each other’s chops over the state of the team…I am still trying to recover from the shock of seeing The Weeknd kill his old self- freaky hairdo and all- in the video for Starboy hahahahahahahaha

    There went my sad attempt at levity lol

    Honestly, I don’t know if there are any worthwhile moves the team can make, whether it be player or coaching staff. I’d just hate to think that Phil’s ego drove him to making the Rose and Noah moves. You know- like “imma prove my way works by acquiring guys that limit our flexibility and then maybe they will listen to me.” The Lee signing was fine. We needed a starting center and at the time no one knew KOQ would be an answer, so Phil inked Noah. Hindsight is 20/20, but why not offer up Lopez for Bogut at that time? Noah’s gonna be just as hard to move as Melo is unless MVP candidate Noah shows up. These last 5 games he hasn’t been far off from it. What’s the difference? Thibs had a real defensive scheme and more players committed to playing defense as well as offense. Hornacek doesn’t have a sound scheme on defense, and his players are either too old (Melo) or too injured or coming off injury (Rose, Melo, Lee, Jennings, Lance) to fully commit and play good defense. All these guys do is talk about defense. KP & Noah are the only guys on the roster I’ve seen say they have to contribute more on defense and actually do it.

    Side note: the 3rd verse of Starboy was really clever “Star Trek roof in that Wraith of Khan”
    Get it? Go look up the Rolls Royce Wraith Kahn Edition.
    Dope.

    I’m with HCJ on this one:
    It was an entertaining game that went against us on an illegal shot from a great player.
    Shit happens.
    I, like Frank, felt the defense was more intensive.
    Were there mistakes? Sure.
    But I saw shots challenged and blocked on break aways that I thought were layups.
    I saw more hand checking, pushing and shoving, denial of space, than I have seen this season.
    Even Giannis’ last shot came after he was denied the right block and he had to step back.
    He hit a tough (illegal) shot.

    Melo played a nice game. Rose getting stripped by the freak was a drag.
    Rose puts up so many circus shots; I just wish some of those would turn into passes.
    I actually think if he did that, he would become an above average to good PG. He’s trying too hard; he is playing like a guy trying to prove he still can be great. Indeed, teams are playing him like he is a great talent. He draws several defenders. But if he would settle down just a bit, he’d probably be good.

    But they are what they are. Nothing last night changed my impression of this team. At the high end, they are a .500 club, but easily could be worse.

    We should definitely be playing Kuz more and trying to see what we can get for him at the deadline.

    Frank: Building through the draft IS a crapshoot. For every OKC there is Sacramento, Orlando, Charlotte (even though they’re good now, no one would seriously consider them more than a fringe possibility at conference finals), 76ers, etc. Even some of the teams that have “built through the draft” and are good now didn’t tank to get there (GS, Boston, SA, etc.). The draft is a high variance strategy, and even with a good management team in place, there are a lot of misses.

    For some teams, this is by design. Teams want to continue to be bad, so they continue to be bad. If the 6ers said, “Let’s make trades to try to be better than the Knicks,” they could be better than the Knicks tomorrow and have plenty of additional draft picks left over. Even the Magic could package Aaron Gordon with some bigger contract and bring back enough veteran talent to be better than the Knicks (and still be younger).

    For others, the front office is so terrible that any gains they make from the lotto are offset by idiot decisions elsewhere.

    And yeah, once in a great while, as the early 2000s Bulls illustrated, you just get such bad luck with the draft that you don’t go anywhere.

    The real crapshoot is signing veterans, who quite frequently collapse as we’ve seen basically every few years with the Knicks. If you draft Anthony Bennett, you can opt out of his relatively cheap contract. If you max Amar’e Stoudemire, you have no recourse when his body fails him.

    1 hour ago – View on Twitter
    Hornacek is optimistic about @kporzee’s return: “It gets guys back and settled in their rotations.” #Knicks

    MVP, MVP, MVP!

    @76

    very well put, latke.

    I agree 100%, building through the draft can give a team the superstars it needs, but it also gets young assets that may be traded away / valuable high picks… and if it doesn’t work out, you decline the options on the rookie contracts and start again.

    people are making jokes and having fun at the expense of the Sixers and all of that, but I’m pretty sure we will very soon wish we were the Sixers… well, if Bryan Colangelo does not destroy everything, which is surely possible.

    The Sixers definitely look nice right now but even with the Process far outperforming expectations and Saric doing his thing, they still have the worst record in the league. Ben Simmons could change all that, of course. And they have picks. But this’ll be year 4 of the Process. Nerlens Noel will be gone whether by trade or free agency, and lest we forget, Colangelo was the one who drafted Bargnani #1.

    btw did you know Bargnani autocorrects to Bargain? That should make apple stock go down by 5% on principle.

    it should also be noted that we have all our picks. that in itself makes it different than previous Knick front office regimes since 2000.

    Bargnani wasn’t that stupid of a draft pick. What was stupid was resigning him after it was obvious he was a bust.

    Sixers could definitely be scary in a few years. Which is why it it would be a good idea to start getting some high draft picks to get KP some help.

    Would anyone here be ok with a KOQ/1st for Noel? It would hurt the overall shooting, but if we can somehow move Noah, our young bigs would be KP/Noel/Willy/Plumlee. If NDour can pick up weight he can be another young, athletic long limbed defender up front. Wouldn’t that be awesome?

    The odds of drafting a player better than Noel are pretty small, so yeah, I’d do that deal.

    “The Knicks defense was not good last night”
    That sounds vaguely familiar like I’ve heard it before….

    Sorry, I’ve been cruising in the Caribbean so haven’t been able to devote my full attention to the Knicks or to you. You’re saying that we played without KP and almost beat the fabled Milwaukee Bucks? I think that’s pretty darn good.

    I think that we’re going to make the playoffs, compete well and still get a top draft choice. We can have it all, boys.

    Let’s face it guys: WE are the weirdos, not the average fan that makes about an overwhelming majority of Knicks fans.

    We are the weirdos.

    The average fan enjoys the show and wants the team to win but does not bother much with the process or the reasons. The average fan does not find game statistics interesting or even valuable. The average fan can enjoy the way Rose drives to basket and does not care he failed the same move 5 times before in the same quarter.

    We are the weirdos, finding time for this daily mental masturbation/self flagellation.

    Basketball is just entertainment and we are the weirdos, not the guys who enjoy the Knicks and reserve their passion for more important things.

    There is no right or wrong to being a fan. We are the weirdos.

    The funny thing about trading young assets is the Kyle Lowry trade rumors for I think shumpert.
    Majority of us here thought that it is not a good trade and we will have strike 2 vs Toronto.
    But in a hindsight, a Knicks with Lowry is a solid sure playoff team from that trade til now.

    @Frank, again though, the point is that it’s not some gamble. The 6ers could become a better team than the Knicks any time they want, and that’s after drafting below average and having relatively bad ping pong ball and really bad injury luck. Even the Magic, who aren’t in a good position by any means, could do like hte Knicks of yore and trade some young guys and have a better team than the Knicks. The Knicks are the person with the fancy luxury cars but nothing in savings, and these other teams are the person with wealth in their savings and investments that combines to be far more valuable than the Knicks’ net worth.

    Anyone searching for confirmation about the Russian messing with the American computers, you have what you want: Zaza Pachulia is one of the leaders in votes for a starting spot on the All-Star Game.

    Excuse me, I’m a weirdo because I like pro wrestling, not because I like to moralize about basketball.

    We are the weirdos, here every day fantasizing of how our great wisdom could right a ship that is only sinking in our weird imagination.

    Knicks are doing pretty well for most people. We are the weirdos, my fellow weird Knickerbloggers!

    is it just me or does reub spend half the year cruising the Caribbean

    @94 Fellow pro wrestling weirdo, checking in. I’m sure you could guess by my username tbh

    is it just me or does reub spend half the year cruising the Caribbean

    Might just be Googlemaps in between quarters. Different people grieve different ways.

    @96 and 98

    Definitely in the Caribbean now. No Google maps involved. But I’m missing the Knicks badly. Which is exactly how they’re playing. Right?

    Reub, you predicted 55 wins for the Knicks.

    They could still get there if they finish out the season 39-8.

    As others have pointed out, the “well building through the draft doesn’t always work either” trope needs to be retired once and for all. Of fucking course there is not a surefire way to build a contender in a league where 2/30 teams make the finals every year, injuries are frequent, and draft choices can bust for unforeseeable reasons. Pointing that out in defense of the Knicks’ “strategy” is asinine. Like latke said, all the teams getting derided for not foolishly splurging in free agency could be better than us in an hour if they wanted. They don’t, because that would bring them closer to our situation, and that is objectively undesirable.

    It’s true that the process in Philly hasn’t gone exactly as planned. It’s in its fourth season. Is that supposed to represent a cautionary tale to a franchise that seems likely to complete its third consecutive season under .500, with waaaaay less flexibility? Does anyone really think we’re in a better position than them?

    Sadly, that’s right, Reub. I bet your cruise is much more entertaining and fruitful than whatever are these Knicks.

    Philly will add two lotto picks and Ben Simmons to their core next season.

    They might be able to run out a starting five of Markelle Fultz, Ben Simmons, Jonathan Isaac, Nerlens Noel and Joel Embiid. Plus they have payroll flexibility to sign free agents, and some other young cost-controlled assets they could use as trade chips.

    We have Decline Phase Melo, Sometimes Healthy-ish Joakim Noah and we’ll probably throw $25M+ of salary at the remnants of Derrick Rose or if we’re lucky maybe the thoroughly mediocre Jrue Holiday. Plus our ONE good young player, whatever guy we draft at like #11 next year and Willy Hernangomez.

    If you don’t think that Philly team has a brighter future than us, I just don’t know what to say.

    @Frank, again though, the point is that it’s not some gamble. The 6ers could become a better team than the Knicks any time they want, and that’s after drafting below average and having relatively bad ping pong ball and really bad injury luck.

    could they really?
    they are 9-24. what kind of trade do you think they could make that would actually make them better than a .500 team? are there any good players available for trade right now? Paul Millsap maybe, but does that make them a .500 team?

    and the whole drafting below average thing — that’s the whole point I’m trying to make. you can do everything right collecting draft picks and still end up with less than you thought. Even Danny Ainge has had 1000 draft picks yet none of them have really hit — his major successes as a GM have come in trade (seriously that Isaiah Thomas trade was highway robbery) and in hiring his coach. Maybe you bottom out during the wrong draft. maybe you had 6 of the top 7 guys ranked perfectly but the one that you got wrong ended up being the one you picked.

    and i’d remind you about the injury luck that that is exactly what Hinkie TRIED to do. he drafted dudes that couldn’t play whether because of already existing injury or european commitments, all with the purpose of having as high a variance strategy as possible (and to extra-super tank). It’s not bad luck when you draft a big with an already broken foot or another big with an already torn ACL — like they say, it’s a feature, not a bug. (Yeah I guess Simmons was bad luck. )

    I don’t doubt that Philly has a brighter future than us, but I don’t think they could become better “whenever they want”.

    They might be able to run out a starting five of Markelle Fultz, Ben Simmons, Jonathan Isaac, Nerlens Noel and Joel Embiid.

    It’s actually far more likely they’re not going to get Markelle Fultz (ie. 75% chance if we believe Fultz will be the #1 pick), but sure.

    No doubt they’re in an exciting young situation. Does not mean it’s going to work out like you think it will.

    could they really?
    they are 9-24. what kind of trade do you think they could make that would actually make them better than a .500 team? are there any good players available for trade right now? Paul Millsap maybe, but does that make them a .500 team?

    Well first of all, what makes you think we’re a .500 team? Our actual record is 3 games below .500 and our pythagorean record is worse. Second of all, Philly could’ve signed everyone we signed this offseason and traded for Derrick Rose. They even could’ve offered the free agents more money to make it more enticing. They would’ve been better than us and still had more picks and flexibility to boot. They didn’t do it because doing what we do, which can be broadly defined as paying market value for 2nd/3rd tier free agents, because it’s dumb.

    I’ll be 90 years old and on my deathbed someday, wondering why Isiah Thomas’ cryogenically frozen head extended the contract of an 80-year old Carmelo Anthony and wishing the 2062-2063 Knicks would just blow it up and do a proper rebuild already.

    @108

    Yes but what’s worse is that there’ll be 100 years old KBers saying it’s the right move

    Philly could’ve signed everyone we signed this offseason

    No one is going to philly to join the tank fest. They could sign young players not vets.

    Also, they will soon run into the problem where all of these young players need To be signed. A problem that minny will be facing sooner than them. We will see what happens with philly. It’s generally not a good thing to lose a year off of 3 players rookie deals

    As for the Knicks. I doubt that Jennings or Rose will be back next year. We will see what the knicks do with that money and who they draft

    The new CBA is more favorable to teams that want to sign their homegrown talent to long-term extensions. So really it’s a better idea than ever to build through the draft.

    No one is going to philly to join the tank fest. They could sign young players not vets.

    Also, they will soon run into the problem where all of these young players need To be signed. A problem that minny will be facing sooner than them. We will see what happens with philly. It’s generally not a good thing to lose a year off of 3 players rookie deals

    Bro, if the Sixers offered Noah, Lee, Jennings, etc. like $3m more than us AAV chances are they’d be in Philly talking about how much they’re looking forward to their roles as “veteran leaders” or whatever. I mentioned they’d probably have to beat other offers, which they could very easily do if they were so (stupidly) inclined.

    Also, are we not “losing” years of Porzingis’ deal when we try and fail to be good? We’re going to have to sign him using the exact same restricted free agency process Philly will have to sign their guys with. If your argument is that the Philly guys will take the QO because they’re so fed up with the organization, well, I’ll believe it when I see it since I can think of exactly one player (Greg Monroe) who did that.

    I just can’t understand how people still believe you can be relevant as a team making free agent signings and trades alone.

    in the past 20 or even more years every single champion was built through the draft, except the Pistons in 2004, and yes, obviously it takes luck and a good plan to find the right pieces to put around the stars and to not fuck up the draft, but it still has a much better chance of working out.

    unless someone really thinks KP is a super mega star that other superstars are going to be willing to give up their positions to join the Knicks in the future, tanking is pretty much the only option for this team to be a true contender.

    The Ntank for Ntilikina (which is pronounced Nee-Lee-KEE-Nah and not Tee-…) remains the best option for us. He’s a shorter Greek Freak with a more consistent jumper. Stench for the French Wrench!

    I just can’t understand how people still believe you can be relevant as a team making free agent signings and trades alone

    You can’t teach common sense.

    The 2008 Celtics, 2011 Mavericks, 2012-2013 Heat, and even the 2016 Cavs were comprised of teams mostly built around trades and FA signings. I agree that the best way to build is through the draft, but trades/FA signings are still a really good way to acquire talent if you’re a smart front office.

    @116

    I disagree.

    the entire reason the Celtics, Mavericks and Heat were able to do that was because they drafted Pierce, Nowitzki and Wade… why would players like Ray Allen or Kevin Garnett join the Celtics if Pierce wasn’t there?

    yes, they took a long time to build championship teams around their drafted stars, but they found them on the draft (or on a draft day trade, like Dallas or the Lakers).

    the only even semi-contender that didn’t build through the draft is the Rockets, and that only happened because they had a lot of assets and OKC made one of the worst trades in recent history.

    @Frank, some trade like this would be near impossible for others to turn down: http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=ze2mt2g

    Maybe they have to throw in their own first rounder (which won’t be as good anymore) to get Gallinari. Send the Lakers back their own pick, and you could get Lou Williams and Clarkson. All this is without even trading Embiid. That’s a team that would close out the season on at least a 50 win pace. And sure, the Bulls might turn the trade down, so maybe instead of targeting Butler, you go to Memphis and ask for Gasol or go to the floundering Blazers and ask for Lillard. Maybe you *do* have to include Embiid to really get to being a top 8 team in the NBA, maybe the Nuggets don’t want another big so you have to find that solid wing play elsewhere… but it could be done.

    @116 the 2008 celtics? I wonder how they acquired Allen and Garnett in the first place. I’m sure it had nothing to do with the draft..

    the only even semi-contender that didn’t build through the draft is the Rockets, and that only happened because they had a lot of assets and OKC made one of the worst trades in recent history.

    But even there, they only got Harden because they made sure to get a guaranteed lottery pick in their trade of Kyle Lowry. Getting high draft picks is the best thing a team can do to rebuild.

    @121

    yeah, and they also gave Lamb who they had just drafted and was a promising player at the time and two more first rounders and a second.

    you either build through the draft, and then look for free agents and trades, or you stockpile relevant assets and hope some other team is dumb enough to give up a bona fide superstar.

    I get that people might be happy with being just slightly better than mediocre, it’s fine, because that’s all you’re gonna get trying to force your way around building a contender through bad deals to get tier 2-3 stars… history shows that there’s really only one way to build a true contender, outside of a major outlier (Detroit in 2004) who had an absolutely irreplicable perfect storm of events.

    Also, are we not “losing” years of Porzingis’ deal when we try and fail to be good?

    I was talking about Embiid 2 years, Noel 1yr and Simmons 1yr. They have all lost a below market rate year for all of these guys. So even if they are good. They will be paying for 1 year of the rookie deal (2 in Embiids case) in max money years

    you could even somewhat trace the Pistons success to the draft, because they got Ben Wallace on a trade for Grant Hill (who they drafted) and drafted Tayshaun Prince.

    you could even somewhat trace the Pistons success to the draft, because they got Ben Wallace on a trade for Grant Hill (who they drafted) and drafted Tayshaun Prince.

    You could go even further if you wanted to, as the Pistons traded Theo Ratliff (who they drafted with a first round pick) and a first round draft pick to the Sixers for Jerry Stackhouse, who they then traded for Rip Hamilton.

    yeeeah, that’s right, I remembered the Stackhouse part but forgot the previous move…

    I mean, the Pistons’ case is obviously an exaggeration but it still makes up for pretty convincing historical evidence.

    Even Danny Ainge has had 1000 draft picks yet none of them have really hit — his major successes as a GM have come in trade (seriously that Isaiah Thomas trade was highway robbery)

    What did Ainge use to trade for Thomas?

    yeeeah, that’s right, I remembered the Stackhouse part but forgot the previous move…

    I mean, the Pistons’ case is obviously an exaggeration but it still makes up for pretty convincing historical evidence.

    Oh yeah, I’m not really serious about the Pistons. They’re pretty much just a case of everything going freakishly right for them. They got Ben Wallace and Chucky Atkins as part of a sign and trade where Hill could have signed with Orlando outright. No one ever gets actual good players in sign and trades where the player could just sign with the other team outright and the Pistons got an All-Star and a mediocre stopgap starter in theirs. They got Rasheed Wallace for nothing. The got Rip Hamilton because Michael Jordan manages teams like James Dolan. And then they got Chauncey Billups for the fucking MID-LEVEL EXCEPTION. Insane.

    Look, we’ve tried the other way, the “not building through the draft” strategy for a real long time now. We’re approaching two full decades of suck as a result. This latest attempt at a boom/bust cycle never even had a small “boom” part. It just went straight to the “bust” part of the cycle.

    Let’s keep trying it though! One of these decades it’s bound to pay off.

    Eh we have multiple draft picks for what seems like the second time in my lifetime. Last time I think we got Nate and Les

    The thing that gets me, more than anything, is that the last time the Knicks legitimately tried to rebuild, it led to their 1990s team, which almost won a title. So why in the world are people so adamant against not even trying it? Because it sometimes did not work? Their current approach has already not worked! Like the whole, “The Sixers have a bright future, but they’ve had to deal with four years of losing” thing, as if that makes any sense when the Knicks are in their fourth year of losing, as well, with only KP, Billy, and a 2017 mid-first round pick to show for it!

    yeah, and even then they faced one of the absolute weakest eastern conferences ever, beating the Michael Redd Bucks, the declining Nets in 7 games and the Pacers with the corpse of Reggie Miller and Artest as their top star, then beat the crumbling Lakers.

    the whole Isiah Thomas saga from Sacramento to Phoenix to Boston is the biggest proof to show that gms are generally terrible at their jobs… Boston got that 1st literally because they got Tyler Zeller’s contract off from the Cavs books (they were making space to sign LeBron), then turned that and Marcus Thornton + Tayshaun’s corpse into Thomas… it was truly unbelievable.

    The Knicks haven’t had two picks that included a 1st round pick since 2006. I’m pumped

    So why in the world are people so adamant against not even trying it? Because it sometimes did not work? Their current approach has already not worked!

    Eh I think people just don’t wanna go thru seasons like the 17 win season. It’s hard. We did get KP and should have had towns. Fuck you Timmy

    @134, I don’t know about that one. I watched most of the games that season and it was pretty fun, especially once they got rid of JR and Shump, who were just shitty, shitty presences on that team. The modest potential of Langston Galloway made game nights enjoyable and each of the inevitable losses was more and more thrilling as we moved toward the worst record in the league.

    Particularly when you’re looking ahead to a stacked draft class, losing when you’re supposed to is as satisfying as winning when you’re supposed to. Even before we knew what we had in Porzingis, 2014-15 is up there with 2012-13 as the best seasons of Knicks basketball since the Finals run.

    The Pistons situation gets bizarre when you remember that they actually had the chance to indeed build through the draft (well, get a highly coveted player to join an already well-established team), but then they choose Darko. Oh my god, did they shit their bed.

    I wasn’t even half defending sticking with ignoring the draft (especially when the Knicks are a good team when it comes to drafting players). What I am saying is free agency and trading for players is a good way to add talent when you’re a smart team. You can say whatever it is you want about what was traded for who, but a trade is a trade. The Celtics would rather trade their picks than keep them but apparently the price is too high. We can debate the merits of wanting Paul Millsap, Blake Griffin and the like over taking a young player all day. In Boston’s case, they’re so bad at drafting they probably should just trade the picks and save themselves the trouble.

    The Knicks should tank and draft their way to a stud nucleus and then supplement their picks with trades and free agency. Free agency is going to be more like the NFL where the best players never change teams so it’s essential we draft well. It’s silly to say that trading and drafting your way to a good team doesn’t work though. Trading away draft picks prematurely is foolish, but just because some teams traded picks for actual studs doesn’t mean you get to use those examples and say “see?! You need to draft well because that’s how the ’08 Celtics were built.” It’s wrong bro.

    @138, yup, wonder what they got. Wonder if Phil had any convos about Justin Holiday…

    If Hawks are selling I guess millsap goes too. Cavs replaced JR faster than Rihanna.

    People don’t want to go through 17 game win seasons but 34 game seasons are acceptable!

    –Knicks logic

    L2M Report confirmed that there was a 5 second violation but it was officiated correctly. Not sure I understand that if they concede there was a violation, but by not calling the violation the official made a correct decision. Also looks like a 3 second violation could have been called against Melo that occurred at roughly the same time as the 5 seconds, so it’s probably a moot point in the end. I really don’t see the point of having a rule in place if it isn’t going to be enforced (seriously I think I have seen more 5 second violations called in NBA 2K than what I have actually watching games). Also I don’t get the L2M reports. It’s all well and good the league saying mea culpa, but if it doesn’t change the outcome what’s the point?

    I expect to get 2 or 3 good players through the draft this year whether we tank or not. The draft appears very deep and many top picks fizzle anyway.

    Apparently Mo Williams and a heavily protected 1st for Korver. Per Alex Kennedy.

    Reub, I think most of the research indicates that the best players usually come at #43 and #55, which is about where are second rounders will be IIRC. Some examples of previous players the Knicks have drafted in that range are Thanasis Antetokounmpo, Kostas Papanikolaou, Louis Labeyrie and Dijon Thompson… The fact that their jerseys are up in the rafters speaks for itself.

    I’d love to see the Knicks buy a bunch of 2nd rounders and stash players all over the place, in the D-League and Europe.

    it’s not like money is an issue for the franchise anyway.

    It’s fascinating that the Hawks have apparently decided to blow things up. Gutsy call. That certainly helps the Knicks’ playoff chances!

    the only thing that doesn’t really add up with the Hawks plan is Dwight Howard, he’s getting a lot of money until 2019.

    either they are confident they can move him too or they are shooting themselves in the foot.

    It could be they just realize Korver is old and not that good anymore, especially with TH Jr. waiting in the wings! They did the same thing with Teague, Joe Johnson and Josh Smith without actually tanking. I’m guessing they’re open to trading Millsap but I doubt they will push it if they can’t get something worthwhile. Does Dwight have any trade value?

    The Hawks’ blowing it up is not good news because it hurts the Ntank.

    @150

    yeah, that might just be it… but the rumor was that Millsap was in the trading block, too.

    I think they are probably wanting to see what they can get because they feel Millsap will go away in the free agency anyway, and he’s in clear decline too.

    it’s probably an attempt at rebuilding on the fly, will be interesting to watch.

    Dwight is having the best ts% and trb% of his career, even though he’s not much of a shot blocker anymore… I think a guy averaging .634 ts and 16 rebounds per 36 would still have a lot of trade value, but who really knows the way front offices work.

    BTW, FIBA.com posted a very interesting interview with Frank Ntilikina’s head coach, Vincent Collet. Here are the most revealing insights from that interview.

    Would you compare him to Ricky Rubio in Beijing eight years ago when he played for Spain as a 17-year-old?

    No, he’s different. He doesn’t have the same athleticism of Rubio or doesn’t get the steals but he’s a much better shooter – an even better shooter than Tony (Parker) was. But not the same quickness. He’s still growing, almost 6ft 5in. I think he will be very long. He’s different, but he will be good.

    So if he’s that good, will you be able to keep him in France or will he be going to the NBA?

    No, I think he will go [to the NBA] very, very soon. But perhaps it would be good if they let him play one more year in a European league because he’s still young. And I think he needs one more year before playing in the NBA.

    I agree

    Korver is 35 and the Hawks are not contending.

    No big deal I guess.

    If there is one thing that we can say about the Hawks is that they don’t tank, don’t contend and are always on the playoffs.

    Can’t believe Montrezl Harrell is getting minutes in Houston now and doing exactly what his college numbers suggested he would do. 2nd round pick.

    I’ve spent too much time with you guys already today instead of tending to my sunburn and gorging myself at the buffet. San Juan today. St. Thomas tomorrow.

    Reub out!

    Wouldn’t it be something if Timmy helped us tank by keeping the Hawks in the playoffs?

    @155

    Harrell’s PER is through the roof BTW. Of course, it helps being drafted into a team that has a clue of how to use a player with his skills. He could be a Draymond Green type for them.

    @153 I’m reading not as athletic as…Not as quick as……Better shooter. Needs another year because he’s not NBA ready. Tank for him??

    Out!

    it’s just how euro coaches think, a lot of people said Porzingis wasn’t ready for the NBA too.

    I am reading that as Eurocoach wants another year of his stud player before he enters NBA.

    People don’t want to go through 17 game win seasons but 34 game seasons are acceptable!

    Misquote!

    I don’t think many americans are really familiar with the way european leagues work, but they basically make sure that younger promising players, specially those who are surely going to declare for the draft, are never going to get minutes and are never going to substantially develop in their teams.

    Boban has 15 pts 18 rebs in 20 minutes. Pretty surprised that this is pretty much his first real playing time from SVG all year.

    I may be #TeamOptimist, but I wouldn’t mind if the season went belly-up on the Knicks quickly. I’m on record saying that I would enjoy respectable playoff basketball, but it would be a relief to accept reality and do a proper rebuild. Ntilikina is awesome. He is a potential Wing Unicorn. STEALTH NTANK ’17

    @131 Also, everyone said the Yankees would never sell at the deadline because “New York fans won’t stick around for a rebuild.” They finally do it this past season, and what happens? Brian Cashman aces it, netting multiple MLB Top 100 prospects. Gary Sanchez goes apeshit bonkers. Compared to the past few seasons of signing vets in FA and barely making the playoffs each year, there’s more excitement than ever around the team.

    I think Dolan just doesn’t have intestinal fortitude to blow up the team.

    Same thing happened with the Mets. They were a franchise of half measures under Omar Minaya barely contending for years after acquiring the latest big name in free agency or trade market like Jason Bay, Johnan Santana, JJ Putz, etc. It wasn’t until the fallout created by the Madoff Scandal forced the Wilpons to reduce team salary and rebuild from the ground up that they finally were able to make the playoff two years in a row with some of the best young pitching in the game.

    NY area fans can deal with a rebuild, but a franchise has to show they are working towards a better future.

    I think Dolan just doesn’t have intestinal fortitude to blow up the team.

    Pretty much. So instead we get 20 years of mostly mediocre, occasionally awful bullshit. Thank goodness that one of the awful seasons coincided with KP’s draft year (and even there, they just couldn’t lose enough to get the #1 pick)!

    The Hornets just lost a game where Marco Belinelli noticed that the Piston who was guarding him (as the Hornets were inbounding, down one, with less than a second to go) had his back to him, so he threw the pass off of his back so it would bounce back to Belinelli and Belinelli then took a possible game-winning three. The shot was released too late, though. The announcers were praising how clever it was by Belinelli , but that’s ridiculous, as his decision actively fucked the Hornets! The clock starts as soon as the ball hits the other player, so how in the world do you think you’re going to hit a ball off of a guy, get it back and shoot it in less than a second? It looked awesome and if there was more time left, it’d be super clever, but there wasn’t, so it isn’t.

    Man if there were ever a year for the Knicks to Ntank it’s this one. We need this losing streak to go as long as possible so we can get Melo to waive his NTC and then cash in on some good draft picks.

    @171

    Sadly, that would take some injury luck. Problem is that the surest way for that to happen is for our Unicorn to be injured, but who wants that?

    just checked Hawks roster, only Tim Jr left as SG but Bazemore can probably be starting SG

    Is t it more frustrating that league is telling as that we should have won because Giannis should have made a turnover?

    The League didn’t say that. They just said that Giannis took more than five seconds backing down Lance Thomas. They also said that Melo was in the paint without guarding anyone for more than three seconds, which, if called, would have been a defensive three-second technical before Giannis’ five seconds were up. The refs made neither call and the league doesn’t actually say either one was “incorrect,” just that they both occurred. The only “incorrect” call the league said happened in the last two minutes was that Noah should have been called for an offensive foul with a little under two minutes to go.

    The league said that the Melo non-call was immaterial and that the Giannis non-call was outside human error (in other words, since it was less than a second past five seconds, the league believes that it wasn’t “incorrect” for a human to not know that five seconds had passed). It’s the same reason the league almost never says refs are incorrect on five-second inbounding plays, since they’re just doing basically “one Mississippi two Mississippi” with their arms because they need to be watching the game and not a stopwatch.

    That makes me wonder: why not use a mini shot clock type thing that counts down the 5 seconds on inbounds plays instead of having the ref doing the imprecise arm thing 5 times.

    I wish Dolan would hire a GM as competent as Brian Cashman.

    I am a huge, huge Cashman fan, but as we’ve seen with him, as well, it typically still boils down to the ownership on a lot of the big stuff. If the Knicks had a GM like Cashman, he would still be pushed by Dolan on things, like the Mega-Max Melo contract (with the NTC).

    Phil is very much like an Omar Minaya-style GM. Obsessed with “famous” players and splashy moves, has a tendency to go all-in on “win now” too early, is oblivious to advanced stats, makes moves that hamper long-term flexibility. Omar at least had a little bit of success with the Mets before it all came horribly crashing down. Phil’s Knicks are in year three and haven’t won shit, and don’t appear to be winning shit any time soon.

    Alderson has made mistakes here and there but he’s the best GM the Mets have had in eons simply because he’s a normal GM. He’s not some renegade out of the box thinker, he simply does things that are smart in terms of conventional wisdom. He’s patient. He values the assets he controls. He doesn’t make many unforced errors.

    In the NFL, I root for the Oakland Raiders. For decades Al Davis did a fine job running the team, but after the Raiders Super Bowl performance in 2002, he completely lost the plot. At some point the NFL passed him by, and he never caught back up. Year after year he would just do the dumbest shit you could possibly imagine. As a result the Raiders sank to the bottom of the NFL. They’d get high draft picks, and Davis would waste them in extravagant ways. He would make “win now” moves when the team was coming off a 3-13 season.

    Eventually he croaked, and his son Mark did something smart: he hired a normal GM named Reggie McKenzie. McKenzie was given enough leash to get the Raiders off the “win now” train and do a real rebuild. He slowly and methodically restored the team’s salary cap health. When he got top draft picks, he picked conventional wisdom BPA types like Amari Cooper and Khalil Mack instead of whichever guy ran the fastest 40 at the combine. And now the Raiders are one of the best young teams in the NFL.

    That’s all I want for the Knicks: a fucking NORMAL general manager who will do normal, sane, sensible things.

    @179

    Yes, that’s why I raised the Mets example. The Knicks are run like the Minaya/Wilpon Mets before the 2008 crash. Sadly, Dolan’s wealth is so secure the MSG franchises won’t have the same kind of financial incentive to force a reevaluation of their organizational philosophy. Its especially tragic since the Knicks have, despite themselves, stumbled upon the type of player who they can build a successful franchise around. If only decided to not do stupid shit and devote their resources towards building a core of talent to supplement his maturation into an eventual superstar, we’d be a perennial contender in the Eastern Conference for over a decade. But here we are, stuck in basketball limbo fielding a team of wash ups to win now with an over the hill volume scorer who won’t lead this team anywhere.

    It does really gall because the Knicks were so well set-up after last season under normal circumstances. Trade Melo, tank this season, get a top pick, sign some younger free agents and whammo, right back into contention building around KP and the top pick they’d get in this top-heavy draft plus whatever pick they could have gotten for Melo.

    That really is how most GMs would have played it.

    And among the worst things about it is that it wouldn’t even be a “Fuck you” to Melo! It would have been, “We’re helping you go somewhere where you can win a ring”!

    I am not so sure Melo would have lifted his no trade clause this past offseason anyway. Now, I think the potential lies for him to lift it with the negativity surrounding the team. We still have a chance to make the right move in the right direction, but it means we continue to lose games and that Melo continues to feel frustration with the direction of the team moving forward.

    I’m certain if Melo didn’t have a No Trade Clause he’d be playing in Boston right now. That damn NTC is a real bitch. Oh, and since Derrick Rose is back to dunking you just know the extension is coming. Personally these next few years don’t matter as long as KP continues to develop and the Knicks draft good basketball players like Luke Kennard.

    Since Noah seems to be back on track with being Joakim Noah, the defense should improve when KP gets back. We really just need a guy who can deny dribble penetration and we’d be set. As much as I hate his fat Celtic guts, Marcus Smart would be the perfect player to add.

    The Ntank is happening, though, guys. The only thing that can stop this gravy train is if KP and Noah keep us around .500.

    The only thing that can stop this gravy train is if KP and Noah keep us around .500.

    But that’s pretty much exactly what will happen, especially since the East is so shitty. I went on to a Hornets blog to bitch about the Belinelli call, and they all get it there, too, that the Hornets aren’t good, either, and are being totally bailed out by the shitty East. The Hawks’ front office apparently is also not willing to buy in on that team because of how bad the East is. So the Hawks will probably sell players and rebuild on the fly and fall down the standings, opening things up for the Knicks. Then, when the Knicks return to the playoffs this year as a #7 seed, that’s the perfect reasoning for bringing this whole team back next year, including Rose.

    I say this not as a standard “expect the worst from the Knicks” standpoint, I just think that it is a very likely scenario. They banked too many wins early to tank now with this same squad. They’re just good enough to stay in the playoff hunt.

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