Knicks Morning News (2015.07.16)

  • [New York Times] Sports Briefing | Pro Basketball: Liberty Defeat Stars (Thu, 16 Jul 2015 04:30:34 GMT)

    Essence Carson scored 16 points off the bench to lead the Liberty to an 84-68 victory over San Antonio, the Liberty’s first win against the Stars since 2011.

  • [New York Daily News] Yankees No. 2 on Forbes list, Knicks in top-10 (Thu, 16 Jul 2015 04:02:04 GMT)

    As the losses pile up for the Knicks, so does the franchise’s value.

  • [New York Post] Kenyon Martin: Carmelo deserves better than a rebuilding Knicks (Thu, 16 Jul 2015 04:25:06 -0400)

    It has been two years since Kenyon Martin donned a Knicks uniform, but he has been around Carmelo Anthony long enough to believe he shouldn't have to endure an extended…

  • [New York Post] Meet the undrafted rookie who has a shot to stick with Knicks (Thu, 16 Jul 2015 02:27:55 -0400)

    LAS VEGAS — The Knicks have five draft picks on their summer league roster, but the player raising the most eyebrows is undrafted, 6-foot-9, energetic power forward Maurice Ndour, who…

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    Mike Kurylo

    Mike Kurylo is the founder and editor of KnickerBlogger.net. His book on the 2012 Knicks, "We’ll Always Have Linsanity," is on sale now. Follow him on twitter (@KnickerBlogger).

    196 thoughts to “Knicks Morning News (2015.07.16)”

    1. I wonder whether Melo has read or will read the Harvey Araton article. He really needs to, but I wonder whether he cares enough to? My favorite part:

      our guy, Porzingis, made Jahlil Okafor eat his shot three times. Kristaps is taller than Manhattan and tougher than you probably thought, and we still have every reason to believe that in three to five years he will be the best player from this year’s draft. If that is too late for your plan of winning a Knicks championship in your prime, my suggestion is that you embrace the reality that you not only signed up for, but helped to create.

      That’s right, this franchise stripped itself of assets to acquire you back in 2011, when you made it clear to Mr. Dolan that you were going to get paid before the coming lockout and would do so in New Jersey and Brooklyn if need be. Poor Donnie Walsh was ordered to surrender everything to Denver except Walt Frazier’s wardrobe.

      You could have waited to sign as a free agent for the sake of the franchise’s well-being — and yours, by extension. We all want to earn, but you did set the consequences in motion and, again, had a chance to escape them last summer. You didn’t. You stayed. Now deal with your decision, grow as a player and as a leader.

      So well written, and so so so true.

    2. While there’s a chance that an elderly Melo could have value to a Knicks squad where Porzingis has achieved his potential — Melo has good old man skills — the best thing for all involved is likely for him to have a great season, get frustrated with the rebuild, and get traded either at the mid-season deadline or in the summer (as a consolation prize to one of the teams with tons of cap space and no Kevin Durant).

    3. I actually think we will be pretty good this season and will at least be in the playoff mix – maybe not a top 6 seed but in the running for a playoff berth.

      If you look at the players that played the most minutes for us last year – look at this crap of a top 9 rotation:

      #1 – Shane Larkin 1865 minutes – WS/48 0.045
      #2 – Jason Smith 1785 minutes – WS/48 0.032
      #3 – Tim Hardaway 1681 minutes – WS/48 0.023
      #4 – Langston Galloway 1457 minutes – WS/48 0.043
      #5 – Carmelo 1428 minutes – WS/48 0.097
      #6 – Quincy Acy 1287 – WS/48 0.063
      #7 Jose Calderon 1270 – WS/48 0.033
      #8 – Lance Thomas 1040 – WS/48 (-)0.022
      #9 – Cole Aldrich 976 – WS/48 0.107

      Literally only 1 player in our top 9 even registered as an average player by WS/48. Out of those 9, only 3 will have significant minutes this year: Melo’s WS/48 has been about 0.170 in his Knick years and he should play nearly 2x the minutes he played last year. Calderon’s career WS/48 is about 0.130 and I would hope he at least gets to 0.100 this year (and should play 50% more minutes if healthy).

      Assuming a top 9 rotation of this:
      #1 Melo – assume 0.170 WS/48
      #2 Lopez – assume 0.15-ish where he has been last 2 seasons
      #3 Afflalo – assume 0.09 to 0.100 where has been most of his career
      #4 Calderon – assume 0.100 – worse than his career avg but he’s getting older
      #5 Porzingis – ? but very likely to be way better than Jason Smith
      #6 Grant – ? but very likely to be way better than Shane Larkin
      #7 O’Quinn – assume 0.100 (his career mark)
      #8 Derrick Williams – 0.070 career
      #9 Galloway – ?

      hard to imagine we won’t be A LOT better. like an average team-ish, which should be in the running for a 7 or 8 seed in the eastern conference.

    4. Frank – I agree totally with your assessment. We’re trying to get back into the playoffs and being a 7-8 seed in the east is great because it means that there’s less of a chance that Toronto gets a lottery pick for Bargs (assuming that the Knicks pick is worse than Denver’s and that I understand the complex trade).

      Also, let’s wake up. Durant is NOT coming to NY. The team we have now is close to what we’ll have 2 years from now. We might sign one or two lesser free agents but not Durant. There’s no other “star” coming to play here.

    5. I think a few of your assumptions are a bit optimistic (for example, you can’t assume Grant is going to be better than Larkin-Larkin was above average for a rookie). But generally, yeah, we gave a shit ton of minutes last year to really terrible players. Hopefully we’re not going to do that this season.

    6. Araton’s article pretty much summed up my feelings on the Knicks and Melo.

      So, 4:30 pm today.

    7. Porzingis is all the star talent we need. He’ll just need RoLo, a 2nd scoring option, and some good 3 and D guys

    8. So, Shved finally signed a deal in Russia. That’s fine; let’s take a look at Ndour and save the room exception for during the season.

    9. Frank,

      Not that I’m arguing the greater point, but I think this is an example of where Win Shares can sometimes be a little suspect. Win Shares doesn’t just look at player stats. It also looks at the team’s record. It then uses the individual player stats to allocate the wins on an individual basis. If a team just happened to win more/less games than the talent on the team suggests it should have, all the players will get a depressed or inflated rating. I think the Knicks won quite a few less games than they should have last year.

    10. Frank,

      Since win shares allocates total teams wins among the players on the team and the Knicks only had seventeen wins, it’s almost impossible for any player to have a good WS number. There just aren’t enough wins for that. So by using your data to say everyone’s “crap”, you are basically saying “the team was crap therefore all the players on it were crap”. That’s too simplistic. Some of those players will undoubtedly look better by WS in another setting.

    11. I agree that the Knicks would make the playoffs or be in the mix this year. Also why would Melo start reading the paper now. They have been bashing him for years. This is just another notch. So who cares. The NY media is literally trying to rile up the fan base against Melo (again). So nah. Lets just play ball.

    12. It’s funny, I’m a stat-head but not as much for basketball as baseball. Basketball is such a team sport that I think statistics are actually misleading. Paying too much attention to statistics, be it win share or even +/- can end up constructing a team that looks good on paper but just doesn’t work. For me, in the NBA, I lean on the eye-ball test. In the first summer league game, for example, Thanasis had a terrible +/- (-23) but he had little to do with why it was so bad. He was on the court with other players that coughed up the ball or couldn’t defend their man. I looked at the tape and most of the time he was covering his man on the other side of the floor while Laberyie was getting lit up. I’m not saying Thanasis had a good game, but it wasn’t -23 bad.

      DRed, I’m very high on Grant but I might be drinking the Kool-aid. I think he’s light-years ahead of Larkin already.

      @11 +1!!! NY media, especially Isola and Berman deserve every bit of wrath we can dish out. They go out there looking for any angle to create strife and tear the team apart. It makes for good headlines and sells newspapers.

    13. @12
      Agreed! WS can be very deceptive, esp. very small sample sizes, too. I thought that Thanasis had a good game Tuesday. Let’s see if he can build off of that today.

      The direct one on one match up between pitcher and hitter in baseball leads to lots of interesting, revealing stats that fairly reveal individual accomplishments, esp. over lots of plate appearances for hitters and innings for pitchers.

    14. Teams that win 17 games generally don’t have a bunch of good players though.

      The way I look at it, is that if you look at our top 5 guys in minutes, you see Larkin, J. Smith, Timmy, Langston and Melo. Generously, that’s two okay rookies, gimpy Melo, and two bottom 10 in the league guys. Replace that with healthy Melo and 4 guys who are about average, and you’re already looking at a much better team. Not only didn’t we have many goodish players last year, but the ones we did have didn’t play a lot. With a bit of injury luck, we will be much better next season. Granted, being much better than a 17 win team is still not very good, but that’s fine-we should be watchable at least.

    15. we should be watchable at least.

      And we have young assets that we can watch grow before our very eyes

    16. For me, in the NBA, I lean on the eye-ball test. In the first summer league game, for example, Thanasis had a terrible +/- (-23) but he had little to do with why it was so bad. He was on the court with other players that coughed up the ball or couldn’t defend their man. I looked at the tape and most of the time he was covering his man on the other side of the floor while Laberyie was getting lit up. I’m not saying Thanasis had a good game, but it wasn’t -23 bad.

      1) Stats are bad, and my eyes are better.
      2) Here’s a terrible stat that says almost nothing about individual production.
      3) Did you watch the game? The terrible stat was wrong.
      4) Stats are bad.

    17. @17 I’m not sure how to respond to that or what your point is. But yes, I did watch the game. See: “I looked at the tape” (actually my DVR).

    18. Paying too much attention to statistics, be it win share or even +/- can end up constructing a team that looks good on paper but just doesn’t work… For me, in the NBA, I lean on the eye-ball test. In the first summer league game, for example, Thanasis had a terrible +/- (-23) but he had little to do with why it was so bad. He was on the court with other players that coughed up the ball or couldn’t defend their man.

      I agree that there’s a good chance that publicly available stats are more explanatory in MLB than NBA. I think, though, that what you’re talking about is really paying too much attention to the wrong stats and/or paying the wrong kind of attention to those stats than just flat out paying too much attention to stats.

      Stats are just numbers that quantify things, it’s up to the person using the stats to decide what they want to quantify and how they want to use that information. I don’t think there’s an either/or, black/white divide between using stats and watching a game. The stats are merely meant to quantify what happened in the game.

    19. Every team (with a few exceptions) is looking pretty good this time of year. Take any team in the league and apply the sort of assumptions Frank applied to the Knicks and you’ll conclude they’re going to be pretty decent. If all our old/injured players are healthy and play at the levels they established before they were old and injured, and all of our rookies are above average contributors, and we have no unexpected injuries that really test our depth, we could be pretty good!

      In theory it could happen that way, but you also have to examine the other side of the coin. What if Melo’s knee is still a problem and he has the exact same season as last year? What if Calderon is just washed up? What if our rookies play like rookies(meaning flashes of potential, but overall marginal contributors at best)? The roster starts to look very top-5 picky in a hurry. Most likely scenario, of course, is somewhere in between.

    20. Melo had loose cartilage that was bothering him for years cleaned out. It wasn’t a torn acl. If anything he should b better with the extra time off

    21. By my very rough estimates we were approx a 36 win team but if the rooks and galloway are 4-5 win players then we could be about 39-40 wins…

      for next yr and beyond we really need them to be ok nba players next yr..

    22. Despite my optimism about entering a new era of managerial competence, my guess is that the over/under for Knicks wins in 2015-16 will be in the high 20’s to low 30’s. On paper, they still have major question marks: Melo’s knees, development of rookies, athleticism, scoring, wing defense, depth, etc.

      So I am guarding against being too optimistic going into the year and setting my expectations at watching a team that plays interesting, smart, competitive basketball on most nights, and seeing young talent improve as the season goes on. Realistically, this team doesn’t have enough to beat any of the top 15-20 teams in the league on a regular basis, ans will lose often to the more athletic lottery teams like Orlando, Minnesota, and Sacramento. I am guessing at this very early juncture that 32-50 will be a reasonably optimistic expectation. I know it hurts to be in the lottery without a pick, but Hernangomez would surely have been a 1st round pick if he came out next year, so there’s that.

      If any 5 of Porzingis, Grant, Ndour (if he wins a spot in training camp), O’Quinn, Galloway, Early and Williams dramatically exceed expectations, we could surprise our way into an 8th seed, but that would also require that Melo, Lopez, Calderon and Afflalo all play reasonably well and stay healthy, and som other teams unexpectedly faltering. EC Playoff teams: Cleveland, Chicago, Toronto, Miami, Milwaukee, Atlanta, Washington, with Boston, Detroit and Indiana fighting it out for the last spot (Orlando has a puncher’s chance.)

    23. Where are the Knicks making the playoffs?
      I have it as (rough order)
      1. Cleveland
      2. Toronto
      3. Atlanta
      4. Chicago
      5. Miami
      6. Washington
      7. Milwaukee

      then there is Boston, Indiana, Charlotte.

      I just don’t see it

    24. The Knicks didn’t just lose a lot of games last year. They had the worst margin of victory in the league (-9.3 ppg). Replacing bad players with better ones is a good strategy toward improvement, but it’s going to happen one step at a time. Better players won’t simply equal more wins. If they cut the mov down to -3 ppg (a big improvement), that’s still the margin that the Hornets had this year, en route to 50 losses and a bottom 10 record.

    25. @22 actually it was a patellar tendon repair. They probably scoped out some fragments of cartilage and loose bodies while they were in there.

    26. Where are the Knicks making the playoffs?
      I have it as (rough order)
      1. Cleveland
      2. Toronto
      3. Atlanta
      4. Chicago
      5. Miami
      6. Washington
      7. Milwaukee

      then there is Boston, Indiana, Charlotte.

      I just don’t see it

      Boston, Indiana, Charlotte.
      These teams are awful. If the Knicks are decent they will be better. Also Atlanta and Toronto are shaky

    27. One thing that’s encouraging is that the team jettisoned three guys who were no-hopers on the defensive end: Bargs, Jah and THJ. Acy and Larkin are also not so great on D and are undersized. This year’s team adds Lopez, Porzingis and O’Quinn up front and brings back Amundson– that should be a much better defensive frontcourt. In the backcourt you add Grant and Afflalo, both guys who should be fair to average defenders. This should be a passable defensive team, which will be nice to watch. The only truly execrable defenders who figure to be in the rotation are Calderon and Derrick Williams.

    28. Didn’t we said the same thing before last season?

      “Just by replacing Woodson will add 5-1o wins”

      Unfortunately things don’t work this way.

      There is too many variables that is impossible to predict the outcome.

      But it’s not impossible to reach the playoffs. The east sucks after all and it’s a completely different team.

    29. I would not be surprised to see the Knicks as a decent over bet this year. We got rid of some really, really bad players, and I imagine the lamestream consensus is that we had a bad off season because we didn’t land a second superstar to pair with Melo.

    30. “Just by replacing Woodson will add 5-1o wins”

      Well thats the fallacy of comparing seasons with completely different teams. There is no baseline for this team. This is a new team.

    31. Team definitely has flaws, particularly in terms of outside shooting. Playoffs would have to require everything to go right, but a healthy and productive Melo surrounded by defenders and solid role players is certainly plausible as a 7th or 8th seed. We spend so much time understandably focusing on the cost — in players, picks, and money — of Melo, and he’s never been the top 5 player that he and management believed he was, but when healthy and playing at his best, he has the ability to drag the rest of this team into the playoffs.

    32. Boston, Indiana, Charlotte.
      These teams are awful. If the Knicks are decent they will be better. Also Atlanta and Toronto are shaky

      Boston is awful? Pretty sure they had like 3rd best record post trade last year. Brad Stevens out coaches Fisher with his eyes closed. Boston will make the playoffs. They will also see continued growth from their young players.

      Atlanta shaky?? WTF are you smoking? They are a lock top 4 seed. They are a system team that will continue to improve. They are replacing all of Pero Antics garbage minutes with Tiago Splitter. Losing DMC is a big blow but they still will be solid.

      And Raptors shaky??? Again wtf are you smoking. Raptors will replace 2k minutes of lou, 2k minutes of vasquez, 2k minutes of amir with dorito ankles, and 1k minutes of hansboro with cory joseph, demarre carroll, and bismack. That will help their defense tremendously

    33. By my very rough estimates we were approx a 36 win team but if the rooks and galloway are 4-5 win players then we could be about 39-40 wins…

      I hope you are right but for WS for example Robin Lopez, Al Jefferson, Taj Gibson and Tyreke Evans are “5-win players”

      That’s a lot to expect from our rookies

    34. It’s a new, and interesting team.
      The one thing that worries me more than anything is Carmelo Anthony’s attitude. If he gives it a chance, the team has a chance. If he comes in sour (as some in the Media indicate he is) then 17 wins might be a reach.

    35. Team depth is not real great, and if Melo gets hurt this is a rather punchless offensive team. Perimeter shooting seems like a weakness and rebounding is a major question mark. Cleveland, Toronto, Chicago, Miami, Atlanta, Milwaukee and Washington seem like clearly better teams than NYK.

    36. Jeez, the freakin’ Nets made the playoffs last year and they were a pretty crappy team. And has the east really gotten better this year? Paul George is back and the Bucks got Monroe, but I can’t think of other teams that made significant upgrades. Not to say making the playoffs will be easy, but the 7 and 8 seeds will probably have below .500 records.

    37. I think Boston will be clearly better than us this year. They have a bunch of unbranded players who are all pretty good at basketball, and all of them except Amir Johnson’s ankles are moving toward their prime. And their coach is way better.

    38. @37 – lopez, al jeff, and taj gibson all missed significant time last year and evans was a ws/48 of .082… if grant, porzingis and galloway crack 2000 minutes they have a good shot at it…

      that’s also going to be obviously crucial in that we are going to need everyone healthy…. if everything does break right i can definitely see 44 wins as an upper limit…

      with all these new faces though i do think we will probably struggle out of the gate… and the melo trade grumblings will start in earnest…

    39. The one thing that worries me more than anything is Carmelo Anthony’s attitude. If he gives it a chance, the team has a chance. If he comes in sour (as some in the Media indicate he is) then 17 wins might be a reach.

      LOL keep letting them dictate to you..

    40. Boston is trash. Indiana is Trash. Atl wont be as good, Toronto wont be either

      Sorry I don’t post here often. Forgive me, didn’t realize I was dealing with a troll.

    41. Boston was about a .500 team last year, they were the #12 ranked defense, and their young core is all returning. They should be better than last year. They’re not a glamorous team but they have lots of good lunch pail players.

    42. Yea Boston’s ceiling is capped at first round exit because they don’t have a star. But post trade deadline they had one of the better records. And BRAD will maximize their personnel and continue internal development.

    43. Yeah as Tom Penn or someone said, you use stats as an aid. Not as the substance.

      If we did that, we would have never discovered the Earth rotates around the sun. I start at the numbers as the framework and let my eyes fill in the details.

      And quite honestly I think basketball is a tough game for the eyeball. I think if you watched a game where you didn’t know the players’ stats (think foreign league) you’d have little idea at the end if someone’s TS% was good, if their stats per minute were, esp. when players play vastly different minutes. There are too many data points and too much complexity to get a good idea about who was efficient. If they didn’t show the score, and individual stats on the screen, you’d be completely screwed. There are times I’m watching a game and thinking a player is lightining it up, and then they show the box scores and he was 7-19.

      Heck half the time I play with my friends we have a hard time just keeping the score straight, nevertheless how many turnovers or rebounds I had.

    44. Hugo, if there is anyone on this board today acting like a troll it’s you. Please refrain from insulting other members. Calling other people trolls and saying “wtf are you smoking” is not acceptable here.

    45. Just got an alert that Mark Cuban pitched the owners to have ten playoff teams in each conference and lol’d a bit. Poor Mavs…

      Going to go ahead and be bearish on the season (even though I like our offseason!) because we have quite a hurdle to climb and while the Eastern Conference is mediocre, it’s far from talentless. I know people say that we “weren’t really a 17-win team last year” but we had the worst point differential in the league. Just because we upgraded from D-League-level players to an actual NBA roster doesn’t automatically make us playoff contenders.

      Here’s a fun exercise: let’s find seven teams who we think will be worse than us in the Eastern Conference. I think we’re shooting for a win total in the low 30s, a few games out of of the eighth seed. Which is good! They’re going in the right direction.

    46. You’re right I apologize. I guess I was just shocked that Atlanta and Toronto could be coined SHAKY in the Eastern Conference. I stand by my projected standings.

    47. Reasons I expect the win total this year to be only marginally better than last year: the 17 wins last year; rebuilding this year – lots of guys learning new system & each other, no great influx of star talent; need to give significant pt to rookies for their development; Anthony’s health; Lopez and Calderon’s injury-proneness; expected shaky-to-awful D from Williams/Calderon/Afflalo; expected lack of a strong secondary scoring option; Fisher still learning.

      Reasons they might exceed my low expectations: Some units could be very good on D; some units could be significantly better in transition offense than last year; the more flexible triangle-as-secondary-option approach might increase quality scoring opportunities for several guys other than Anthony.

      Reasons I’m very excited for this season: Very likable unselfish group of guys many of whom are going to go all out almost every night!; potential that one or more rookies or newly signed guys might break out; growing confidence in the rebuilding plan with promising youth and some competent role guys in place; hope springs eternal.

    48. Mike, I see where you’re coming from, and while I’m the one who said he prefers the eye-ball test, we’re in agreement because (as I said), I’m a stat-head. It’s just that when you compare basketball to baseball, the team chemistry factor is so much more important in basketball. Baseball’s essentially a 1-on-1 game (pitcher vs batter). Baseball statistics are a better at predicting what will happen because of that (IMO). But yes, in basketball you need to use both to understand quality.

    49. And quite honestly I think basketball is a tough game for the eyeball. I think if you watched a game where you didn’t know the players’ stats (think foreign league) you’d have little idea at the end if someone’s TS% was good, if their stats per minute were, esp. when players play vastly different minutes.

      I think it depends who “you” are. My father played semi-pro (basically the D-league before it was called the D-league), and he coached for a few years as well. When we watched games together, he’d tell me all these things that were going on that even once he alerted me to I just couldn’t catch. So, yes, for the average fan, the eye-test is deceiving; but an experienced viewer has a pretty good idea not only what happened – what the TS% might be, rebound rate, etc – but WHY it happened. And the “why” is the part that stats don’t get quite get in a very complicated team game.

      I’m all for stats, and probably would weight them 2:1 against the eye-test, but 1) what we have access to is pretty weak tea, and often straight up inaccurate; 2) no model does a perfect job accounting for interaction effects; 3) really experienced viewers – and perhaps extremely attentive amateurs – can add insight way beyond what the raw stats reveal.

      I say all this as someone arguing 5/6 years ago that Ray Felton was a Top 15 PG. (I mean, at the time, the stats said he was.) Then we got him on the team….We have all sinned, what can I say.

    50. Mike, one of the other things I’m looking forward to this year is new metrics based on SportVU data. I don’t know if there’s a single page that is trying to gather and curate those. If there is, it would make an nice addition to your excellent set of standard links.

    51. @54
      Rama, though I can’t claim to have plumbed the depths of available NBA box score-based stats, whenever I start to I quickly lose interest because the obvious methodological weaknesses pile up so rapidly. The new data from SportVU should really change that profoundly though. I think the vastly increased ability to accurately measure and model things that matter will soon render traditional stats irrelevant. I don’t know how many years that will take, but I’m guessing not many. Beyond improved performance metrics, I’m guessing that analyses will soon have a much greater impact on coaching, offense and defensive strategies. Things that had to rely on eyes and wisdom before will become quantifiable.

    52. The new data from SportVU should really change that profoundly though. I think the vastly increased ability to accurately measure and model things that matter will soon render traditional stats irrelevant.

      Totally agree. It’s exciting to contemplate – especially for those of us whose eyes aren’t quite as sharp as some.

    53. Just the other day, on WFAN, Beningo and Roberts were talking to Peter Gammons and they were ribbing him about the fact that he was using OBP+ (which takes into effect ballpark factors) and other advanced baseball stats. Gammons has not been a big “stat” guy. The thing is, just as Unreason says here, new technology is helping stats along. In baseball the PitchTrak system, which breaks down every pitch to ridiculous levels (number of rotations the ball make on the way to the plate, where along the flight path of a baseball pitches break and how much it breaks along both X and Y coordinates, ect.), is taking statistics to another level.

      All sports are going to follow suit. How many rotations on the basketball does Carmelo Anthony’s 3-pt shot take? Does it have a pure vertical spin? How far off the ground are his feet when he releases the ball? What is his hang time? etc. Things like this are going to dissect the sport to an absurd level.

      Stats are great in that, at a glance, they tell part of the story, but then it’s up to the eyes to see how valid they are and to put them in context.

    54. You can find SportsVu stats at the nba.com site, but I warn you that the interface is fucking awful. I’m not sure how useful some of them are-if I told you that Pablo was the fastest Knick, on average, and Melo was the slowest, how would that help you decide which one was more effective?

    55. We got playoff basketball coming up!

      “I gotta get there, please understand, I’m talkin Thursday afernoon Knicks on MSG, got Knickerblogger seats, do it just to get therrrrreeee” *electric guitar*

      – Robert Randolph and the Family Band

    56. 1) Stats are bad, and my eyes are better.
      2) Here’s a terrible stat that says almost nothing about individual production.
      3) Did you watch the game? The terrible stat was wrong.
      4) Stats are bad.

      Of course stats have value, but……..
      The problem is there are too many variables that stats don’t capture, happening simultaneously. Although valuable, they give a very incomplete picture. And, the idea that you can summarize a player’s value in one stat is insanely misleading due to weighted mis-allocation . . . as well as not taking into account those many variables that contribute to a players value.
      Stats are a fantastic fine-tuning, clarifying, discovering, and understanding tool.
      Why so incredulous that the human brain is better than a line item in a box score?

    57. Why can’t we add a good outside shooter? Is Jenkins still out there? I saw this kid Wilbekom or whatever his name is shoot 6 for 6 on 3 pointers vs. the Knicks the other day. Is he available or a reasonable facsimile? I’m really impressed with Ndour who looks like he can shoot. Porzingis can shoot from anywhere. Grant has shown signs as well. Anyway let’s play a clean, fair game today and win at any cost above all.

    58. Why can’t we add a good outside shooter?

      We very much need to add another shooter, preferably in the backcourt. Calderon is historically great from three, but who knows how healthy he’s going to be, if he’s fallen off a cliff, etc. Grant is a rookie who will be adjusting, and shooting isn’t Galloway’s strength. I feel reasonably good about Afflalo, but given our abundance of promising forwards (plus Derrick Williams for some reason), we need another guard no matter what, and I’d rather it be a shooter than another lunchpail guy. We’ve got plenty of those already.

    59. Looking forward to seeing Ndour and ZINGS again today. I really think Ndour should get put onto our roster. He’s like a cross between Demarre Carrol and Faried

    60. This summer league lineup is the best defense we’ve played since Tyson was trying

    61. Sorry I don’t post here often. Forgive me, didn’t realize I was dealing with a troll.

      Hugo, don’t take it personally. Infrequent posters will be rained on with fury if you go against groupthink. And then told you’re a troublemaker. . . . No matter how sensible your comments are.
      And fanboy comments are preferred.

      This is a great site for information about the knicks, but don’t try to make sense of the opinions expressed here, and surely don’t take the insults to heart. There are some mean people here.

    62. I start at the numbers as the framework and let my eyes fill in the details.

      I see it as the other way around. You watch a game and can tell who’s having a good game and who’s not. Then, you look at the box score/stats and realize some of what you thought may have been misleading. Some guys have horrible lines, and others more efficient, less notable.
      And then there are those players that made a lot of things happen that appear nowhere in the metrics.

      And quite honestly I think basketball is a tough game for the eyeball.

      So is a cross-over dribble or dunk – for some people. Scouts, coaches, GM’s, fans have varying degrees of aptitudes for assessing talent, as well as digesting games.

      Heck half the time I play with my friends we have a hard time just keeping the score straight, nevertheless how many turnovers or rebounds I had.

      And yet, you still know if you had a good game or not, and who to pick first when choosing sides.
      Why underestimate the human brain? It’s power is beyond comprehension (and NBA metrics).

    63. the nba should officially ditch the west silhouette for summer league and use a nice rendering of stainbrook posting kirk

    64. 3 things.

      1: who is that fat white guy looking like cpt everyman? He’s my new inspiration for life.
      2: coach Fisher is one sharp dresser. Even his white polo looks extra white compared to everyone else’s.
      3: why have we not maxed the ewok king?

    65. @77 That’s the Stain Train! Matt Stainbrook. I just read this about him on espn.com.

      If the Internet was a basketball player, it would be Matt Stainbrook. He’s an Uber driver with a neckbeard who talks trash and wears goggles and fully supports his nickname being the “Stain Train.” After he was done with a very productive career at Xavier, he joined the track and field team. And kept wearing his goggles. All aboard the “Stain Train.”

    66. Ledo’s been a mild disappointment. Hasn’t shown anything.

      Pretty much everyone awful shooting today.

    67. If any 5 of Porzingis, Grant, Ndour (if he wins a spot in training camp), O’Quinn, Galloway, Early and Williams dramatically exceed expectations, we could surprise our way into an 8th seed, but that would also require that Melo, Lopez, Calderon and Afflalo all play reasonably well and stay healthy, and som other teams unexpectedly faltering. EC Playoff teams: Cleveland, Chicago, Toronto, Miami, Milwaukee, Atlanta, Washington, with Boston, Detroit and Indiana fighting it out for the last spot (Orlando has a puncher’s chance.)

      Yeah, I’m mostly just looking forward to seeing the young guys and RoLo play. If they somehow get into the playoffs, then sure, fair enough, that’d be fun, too. But I’m really just looking to fun games for once and, of course, actually being able to root for them to win games.

    68. I’m actually pretty happy they are playing like shit right now. Good time to see how they handle a tough situation and test their mental fortitude, as well as the team and coach fish’s ability to adjust.

      Also. Zinger needs to work on catching. Period. Not just boards but he doesn’t seem to be able to handle the passes. Granted they’re not great feeds but still. Send him to the ODB trick catch camp.

      And the stain train is my hero.

    69. The more I think about it the more I think that Ty Lawson would make them a much better basketball team. They will definitely need the offense. And desperately! Why not? Just assign him a freakin driver.

    70. “Hugo, don’t take it personally. Infrequent posters will be rained on with fury if you go against groupthink. And then told you’re a troublemaker. . . . No matter how sensible your comments are.
      And fanboy comments are preferred.

      This is a great site for information about the knicks, but don’t try to make sense of the opinions expressed here, and surely don’t take the insults to heart. There are some mean people here.”

      Yeah, and some incredibly ignorant misogynist race-baiting trolls too.

    71. “Hugo, don’t take it personally. Infrequent posters will be rained on with fury if you go against groupthink.”

      I actually was the one against group think, but carry on.

    72. Matt Stainbrook = Guy Fieri of the NBA…..

      How did he get an invite?

      Love Becky Hammon….

    73. The Clip joint are gonna be a fun group to watch. I expect at least 3 on court intra-team fist fights. Cant wait (Bart Scott Voice)

    74. You Know Kirk and Stainbrook must be really smart and have great fundamentals. They are two 6-8 fat guys

    75. The Clip joint are gonna be a fun group to watch. I expect at least 3 on court intra-team fist fights. Cant wait (Bart Scott Voice)

      Has JR been signed yet?

    76. JR is holding out to coach the kings when George Karl walk out at halftime of game 12

    77. Stainbrook and Porzingis were running downcourt evoked the nursery rhyme “Fat and Skinny had a race…”

    78. I can’t believe Smith went to the Clippers. Why would he leave a team that just made the Western Conference Finals? He is such a weird guy.

    79. Lol ball going out of bounds porzingis giving chase and stainbrook gtfo’s. I love this guy

    80. @BC in fairness i think the Clippers are a better team. They just shit the bed against the Rockets

    81. Whelp, time to blow it up.

      Also, what’s it like being the 15th man on a SL team? Where the only playing time you get is in the final minute of a 20-point blowout.

    82. Even if they’re a better team, they’re not a much better team, plus they seem to have less playing time for him than Houston, so I really don’t get it. I’d love to hear what drove him from Houston. He said he wanted to re-sign there, so this is a fascinating reversal.

    83. Well, we had a good run. Break up the Summer Knicks, break up the regular Knicks, trade Porzingis for Embiid, and bring back Scott Layden.

    84. I think he’s still set to have a pretty significant role in Cliptown. They played Big Baby as their 3rd big in the playoffs last year. I’d say that role is very available. Obviously he won’t start absent an injury, but he should get 25 minutes a night. That’s almost what he got in Houston.

    85. Boy talk about crashing back down to earth. It’ll be interesting to see who gets camp invites- obviously the rookies and Galloway will be there. I’d guess Ndour will as well even if he was pretty bad today. I’m sure Thanasis and Ledo will get invites as well and truthfully, given that they’ve gotten almost all of their minutes on a second unit that has had nothing remotely resembling point guard play they probably should get a look playing on a unit with actual NBA-caliber players. No to everybody else- maybe Kirk if you just want a banger but he’s got no shot of making the team. And I have to say that while the Knicks really don’t have any other options at the moment, Galloway just isn’t a rotation player right now- not on a decent team anyway.

    86. And honestly the rockets might be more of a “fake” contender. I see GSW, Spurs, OKC, LAC as the clear upper echelon of the West.

    87. I’m curious how it works. How many players can a team protect before the remaining players are up for grabs? I mean GS has Looney, McAdoo, and even Craft who might be able to help the Knicks. Are these guys on their protected roster?

    88. I’m curious how it works. How many players can a team protect before the remaining players are up for grabs? I mean GS has Looney, McAdoo, and even Craft who might be able to help the Knicks. Are these guys on their protected roster?

      If players have signed contracts, and/or were draft picks, they are that team’s property. Someone like Ndour could be signed by any team if he wants to, though there’s often a gentleman’s agreement between agents and the teams that invite these players to summer league or training camp that the team will get right of first refusal. But the Warriors drafted Looney; he’s theirs.

    89. On the stats front, if anyone is interested you should check out “How Not To Be Wrong” by Jordan Elleberg. Was never a numbers guy, but it has opened my eyes a little bit and has got me looking at player data as opposed to sticking to fantasy relevant stats. More of a book on the real real world application of number theories, but some good stats stuff including a look at whether basketball players getting “hot” is actually a thing.

    90. I noticed that Galdikas finally got into a game at the very end and promptly made a crisp pass but it was to the other team.

    91. 4 years for JJ Barea???

      JJ is the real winner of the DeAndrea, Mavs and Clippers love triangle. 4 Years is pretty big for a barely 2nd string PG at best in his 30’s.

    92. I know it’s just Summer League, and the team got spanked today..but MAN OH MAN Porzingis looked good today!! That steal and coast to coast dunk was poetry in motion. I love his aggressiveness and the fact he knows how to use his length on defense. I think us NYK fans are gonna love this kid

    93. Yeah Wes and JJ gained huge from the Deandre saga. I understand that the cap is going to jump significantly but I think Cuban is making a mistake increasing these deals. Maybe not a huge deal but it could/should limit their future flexibility.

    94. My projected ECS:
      1. Cleveland (cuz DUH)
      2. Toronto (Love their defensive signings)
      3. Milwaukee (Monroe gives this defensive team some scoring punch.)
      4. Atlanta (Losing DMC will hurt, but otherwise had a decent signing period).
      5. Chicago (Was it me or were they quiet this offseason?)
      6. Miami (Like what they did. Justise should fill a lot of Wade’s defensive fadings).
      7. Washington (Don’t like their offseason, but should still be better than everyone else…should finish a hair over .500.
      8. Our beloveds. Love the offseason so far, even if we didn’t land any big names. Phil built a nice team around ‘Melo/Zinger and I think will play better than most expected. Also, I haven’t looked, but if someone could pull it up: I THINK the Knicks led the NBA in man games lost due to injury. Could be wrong, but I think they did. Even if they stay medially healthy, it should be good enough to get in. I think there’s gonna be a huge drop after Washington.

      9. Boston – Veterans are gone, kiddos will take a hard-learned lesson and step back.
      10.. Indiana – George at PF ain’t gonna work.
      11. Brooklyn – Core is built around some seriously frail players.
      12. Charlotte – That 7 seed two years ago is seemingly farther and farther away…
      13. Orlando – Will tease moments of great, but ultimately falter.
      14. Detroit – You can’t lose your best scorer for nothing and expect to recover so quickly…can you?
      15. Philly – Cuz DUH.

    95. My projected ECS:
      1. Cleveland (cuz DUH)
      2. Toronto (Love their defensive signings)
      3. Milwaukee (Monroe gives this defensive team some scoring punch.)
      4. Atlanta (Losing DMC will hurt, but otherwise had a decent signing period).
      5. Chicago (Was it me or were they quiet this offseason?)
      6. Miami (Like what they did. Justise should fill a lot of Wade’s defensive fadings).
      7. Washington (Don’t like their offseason, but should still be better than everyone else…should finish a hair over .500.

      I don’t agree that the Wiz will just be a hair over .500, but I agree with the seeding. Suddenly the top 7 in the East is almost looking West-ish. All top 7 seeds could conceivably win 50 games this year. Is this the year that the EC finally makes a comeback??
      Atlanta could possibly fall to 7 with DeMarre Carroll’s departure and still be a very very good team.

    96. Is this the year that the EC finally makes a comeback??

      Maybe. There definitely seems like a lot more teams outside the top 4 will be really competitive and not just making up numbers a la the West. West will still likely dominate the East, but the gap is closing.

    97. I wish Larry Sanders wasn’t such a head case. Part of me wishes Phil would give him a shot for the vet min as a reclamation project. He’s an outstanding shot blocker.

    98. Milwaukee at 3 seems highly optimistic. I do like their team and think they are really fun. A team made of crazy length and young guys. I think Monroe fits in real nicely and getting Jabari back will be real big for them. Also expect to see continued development from the GREEK FREAK. Also, Kris Middleton is a real solid 3+D guy.

      BUT I think their biggest drawback is MCW.

    99. The Bulls have had a quiet offseason but I think Fred Hoiberg will be a strong NBA coach. They will maintain their defense (which didn’t seem to be as good as typical Thibs levels last year) but their offense should be much improved. Joakim should be healthier next year. Nikola Mirotic should be deployed better (I think he was somehow played at the 3 or guarding 3’s a lot last year) They have tons of front court depth especially with adding Bobby Portis. Alot will depend on Rose’s health, at least for a deep playoff run.

      Their trade for Doug McDermott last year was a real head scratcher tho. Maybe Hoiberg will help him?

    100. I’d love to have MCW as a starting G on the Knicks. Doesn’t MIL want a shooter/vet PG? Can Phil send them Calderon and a pick for MCW? Kid can’t shoot but he sees the floor well, penetrates and plays pretty good D. He and Grant would make a formidable backcourt.

    101. MCW is a basketball player that does pretty much everything well except score the basketball. If he gets that scoring efficiency thing figured out while limiting turnovers, he’d be the best point guard in the Eastern Conference. It’s just that guys don’t just become great scorers after being putrid at it. He’s young so he has time, but I think he’ll always be what he is right now.

    102. Among players who played at least half the season for the team, Shane Larkin led the 2014-15 Knicks in assists per game with 3 assists per game. THJ led the 2014-15 Knicks in points per game with 11.5 points per game. Wow.

    103. @123 – the bulls didn’t add much but they also didn’t need much… they have the deepest frontcourt in the league and that was before they added bobby portis…. more than anything they just need to be healthy…

    104. and porzingis didn’t really play well until the 4th … and this was very much the bad bargnani version of him before a nice end to the game…

    105. Zinger will never have a bad Bargs version of himself because he actually knows how to play help defense. Amazingly from what we saw at Summer League the one thing at least I was worried about was if he was struggling offensively he wouldnt be worth playing because of his defense but it was the opposite, even when he struggled offensively he still made a positive impact on defense which was eye opening in a very good way.

      Im not sure if he will become an All-Star caliber player (odds are he wont be) but Im totally convinced now that barring injury he will become a very solid, starting caliber NBA player.

    106. Noah looked worn out as much as he did injured. Pau is a statue on defense and will probably be worse this year. You hope Rose bounces back at least a little- he was godawful and having to pencil him for 30+ minutes 70 or so games rather than the 51 he played last year might actually hurt them if he doesn’t. I thought Gibson took a step back defensively last year too. I think they’ll be lucky to hit 50 wins again.

    107. @136 – he’s ok on defense and that’s probably where he’ll separate himself but he was pretty lackadaisical out there all the way up until the 4th…

    108. I think they mentioned on the telecast that Porzingis is now lifting weights for the first time in his life- if that’s really the case then he might be able to make a decent jump in strength by the time the season opens three months from now. I have to admit I thought it’d be two years before he could be a real positive contributor but I now I think he could be okay this year and really pretty good the next.

    109. Porzingis has great shooting mechanics, good shot awareness, shows contact extremely well and doesn’t shy away from it.

      He’s going to be an efficient offensive player and impact defender immediately.

      In the history of the game, there have been but a handful of bigs who have both the lateral agility to contain pick and roll ballhandlers, and the length and speed to protect the rim and cover from 3-point line to the paint.

      None of the guys had a legitimate 3-point shot.

      Yes, there have been some good shot blocking big men who could occasionally knock down a spot-up 3 (Raef Lafrentz, pre-ACl tear, comes to mind, but he was just 6-foot-10). Zinger has a quick release and unlimited range, with the quickness to come off screens.

      This kid has a combination of attributes the league hasn’t seen before.

      Even if Porzingis never develops much of a post-up or shot creation game, and if even if he tops out as only a mediocre rebounder, which I think with a good work ethic he will do both, his floor is that of an all-star, something like 20/7/2/3. His floor is Serge Ibaka.

      I think he’ll be an all-star caliber player between year 2 and 3. I think he’ll be good player this season. And by 22-23, he could have an Anthony Davis-like impact.

    110. Somewhere between Ibaka and Davis? I’d be OK with that.

      He’s an intriguing kid. It’s true, there has never been anyone quite like him. I think it can safely be said that he is unlikely to be the eurobust of our worst fears, especially on defense.

      But the key components that separate superstars from the average players are health, development, consistency and the ability to perform at your best under pressure. Porzingis is still pretty far away from being a star, even of Ibaka’s magnitude.

      For example, there are lots of guys with beautiful, fluid mechanics who can’t make deep shots consistently (Gallinari is an example.) There are also guys with ugly looking shots who are very consistent.

      So a shorter Shawn Bradley/Bargnani combo is still not out of the question, but neither is a tall Dirk/Kareem hybrid. (doubt if he ever has the quickness or ball-handling of AD, or the physical body of Ibaka) All of these outcomes are unlikely, though. He’s really a unique prospect. I would love for him to become the best player out of this draft, since I’ve been wrong about so many prospects before (including Shawn Bradley, who my friends still tease me about!)

    111. For those of you thinking Boston will be bad this year, I was thinking that too, but then I realized they acquired David Lee and Amir Johnson to improve their front line over the summer. I don’t know if they will be good, but now I’m more worried about them than I was.

    112. his floor is that of an all-star, something like 20/7/2/3. His floor is Serge Ibaka…And by 22-23, he could have an Anthony Davis-like impact.

      The Zinger has been a nice surprise in pickup league, but this is off the reservation. That is not what “floor” means. Serge Ibaka led the league in blocks four years in row with a 58% TS and just under 10 reb/36. If you think that’s Zinger’s floor consider grabbing a light fixture. Also, Anthony Davis.

    113. Anthony Davis is a ridiculous comp. Zinger is more of a shot blocking Steph Curry.

    114. For those of you thinking Boston will be bad this year, I was thinking that too, but then I realized they acquired David Lee and Amir Johnson to improve their front line over the summer. I don’t know if they will be good, but now I’m more worried about them than I was.

      Boston is almost certainly going to be better than the Knicks. I wouldn’t worry about it.

    115. Zinger’s floor is the perfect hybrid of Michael Jordan and Wilt Chamberlain.

      Well, being 7’3″, his floor is farther away than most players in the NBA, and he does hit his head on a lot ceilings.

    116. Does anyone really care if we don’t make the playoffs this year?

      Care? Yes, I care deeply.

      Love,

      Masai

    117. I mean, I won’t be pissed off if they don’t make the playoffs, as the odds are that they won’t make the playoffs. That said, I am hoping that they make the playoffs, so I do care about it.

    118. Im sorry , i know this is dumb but i just dont see it in Boston ATL and Tor. But thats why they play the games.

    119. Zinger’s floor is Kareem. His ceiling is “guy with all maxed out stats in NBA2K.”

    120. Im sorry , i know this is dumb but i just dont see it in Boston ATL and Tor. But thats why they play the games.

      On we get to SportVu 7.0 we’ll be able to skip the time consuming inefficiency of playing basketball games. We’ll just wait until the draft and free agency end, then crunch the numbers and crown a champion. For now, though, you’ll have to wait to be wrong.

    121. I think making the playoffs is an interesting question. I don’t think so mostly because it’s always Murphy’s law with NYK. I mean nothing goes right. They’re the inverse of the Yankees. Yankees always surprise me with how much better they are then I thought they’d be.

      So, I think it’s hard to be sanguine on their chances. Then again, this is not last years team. Some guys will be on the roster from last year but they won’t play near as much. The FAs are solid if unspectacular and the kids have upside.

      The x factor is of course “our favorite son” C Anthony. He’s gotta play like the top ten player he’s paid to be. I don’t think the narrative should be, “Is the supporting cast good enough?” I think there’s no more excuses for him. If he’s the real deal we make the playoffs.

    122. Since we don’t have a 1st rounder, yes I’d really like to at least be in contention for the playoffs-not sure how else to act as a fan…

    123. Im sorry , i know this is dumb but i just dont see it in Boston ATL and Tor. But thats why they play the games.

      So Atlanta won 60 games last year but losing DeMarre Carroll is going to drop them out of the playoffs? How are you getting there?

    124. The eastern conference is really tough to pick this year. The only team that I am sure will have a better record than last year and make the playoffs is Clevrland. Not that they are necessarily better than the end of last season Cavaliers, but they shouldn’t have the bad start this year that they had last year. The Hornets, Magic, 76ers, Pistons and Pacers don’t seem to have improved enough to make the playoffs. That leaves nine teams and seven playoff spots. If the Knicks are better than two of those teams, they can get in. I think they can be better than the Heat and the Nrts, but it’s no sure thing.

    125. “So Atlanta won 60 games last year but losing DeMarre Carroll is going to drop them out of the playoffs? How are you getting there?”

      Sorry i wasnt clear. I dont think they will miss the playoffs. Just dont think they will be as good as last year. Kinda had a magic carpet ride. This is year 2 and they dont have players as good as the spurs.

    126. “C Anthony. He’s gotta play like the top ten player he’s paid to be. I don’t think the narrative should be, “Is the supporting cast good enough?” I think there’s no more excuses for him. If he’s the real deal we make the playoffs.”

      I disagree. Its a team game. Did you see the team last year. If Lebron got an 8 seed with that team he would have been lauded forever

    127. Sorry i wasnt clear. I dont think they will miss the playoffs. Just dont think they will be as good as last year. Kinda had a magic carpet ride. This is year 2 and they dont have players as good as the spurs.

      Oh yeah, sure, they definitely were lucky to win 60 games last year. I agree that they’ll likely get worse this year.

    128. I really want to see the Knicks do well enough this year to make the playoffs. I really, really do. It won’t be easy but comparing this team to last year’s team is ridiculous.

    129. If Lebron got an 8 seed with that team he would have been lauded forever

      Funny that there was an actual case study on that with JR and Shump playing over there. And yes, he almost won a championship with them. And yes, he will be lauded forever.

      Don’t get me wrong. I agree with you that the Knicks need to look to Melo to trust his teammates and not dominate the ball. I just don’t see them making the playoffs if that’s all he does. We need a James Harden. Someone who is going to be the focal point of the offense in crunch time, drive, create fouls, go to the line, and set up team mates for dagger threes. I think Melo can and should be that. I think the pieces are in place if he can be that. The supporting cast looks pretty healthy. Melo needs to fill the leadership vacuum.

    130. @167
      Agree all the way. I’m skeptical that Melo will do that, but I hope that he will.

    131. It comes down to Melo’s attitude and health. Does he accept the system? Does he play hard? Those are key questions. He needs to carry the team – just like LeBron and Kobe. It’s time for him to play up to his pay-grade.

    132. Don’t get me wrong. I agree with you that the Knicks need to look to Melo to trust his teammates and not dominate the ball. I just don’t see them making the playoffs if that’s all he does. We need a James Harden. Someone who is going to be the focal point of the offense in crunch time, drive, create fouls, go to the line, and set up team mates for dagger threes. I think Melo can and should be that. I think the pieces are in place if he can be that. The supporting cast looks pretty healthy. Melo needs to fill the leadership vacuum.

      Here’s the thing. The 2 seeded Knicks were the perfect storm. It’s tougher to build around Melo but this is what you need,
      1. A rim protecting center capable of great D and rebounding covering Melo’s weakness (aka TYSON)
      2. Lots of 3+D wings that space the floor and spend a lot of energy on D
      3. Melo willing to play large amounts of minutes at the 4. His iso style will always work best at the 4.

      That year the Knicks best lineup was Felton, Kidd, Smith, Anthony, Chandler. They also had Shumpert, Prigioni, and Novak on the bench. Besides Chandler none of those guys are all stars. That year we also had Woodson who is more of a “defensive” minded coach.

      This team is very very far away from what they were 3 years ago. We have 3 point shooters that are worse/don’t exist. And a coach in Fisher who is PHIL’s puppet that is willing to force a offense that is probably stupid and also thinks 3’s are dumb.

      Sorry for the rant

    133. I for one will not be holding out hope that Carmelo Anthony is a radically different player in his 13th season than he was in his first 12. I think we pretty much know what we’re going to get at this point; high volume scoring at decent efficiency and hopefully above average rebounding. It is what it is. Not worth his salary, probably not close, but doesn’t preclude a team from being a winner if they spend wisely elsewhere (i.e. 2012-2013). The team for next season almost certainly didn’t spend wisely enough elsewhere to actually be good, but if we’re lucky it can be something of a blueprint for a future team that does. Probably not though because Knicks.

    134. Melo has been he hardest worker on the team his last 3 years here. Not sure what you are all talking about. And this is second year in he triangle. You are acting like this is some new shit going on here. He will be fine. Guys need to hit open shots

    135. I for one will not be holding out hope that Carmelo Anthony is a radically different player in his 13th season than he was in his first 12.

      I agree with this quote, but with a bit less pessimism. Let me be clear: he is one of my least favorite players. He handled the trade poorly and effectively gutted a team I really liked. His “pay cut” to help the team in his megamax deal was bullshit.

      But, being rational, you have to recognize that he is a good player, by any metric. The question isn’t whether he’s overrated or overpaid, which have little to do with him and much to do with those willing to pay him and those who value scoring over efficiency. The question is whether he is good, and the answer is Yes, he is good. Aside from the scoring he is a good rebounder. He is a good defender when he wants to be, and generally average otherwise. Though he is often a ball-stopper, to be fair he hasn’t had great players to pass to often, and he can pass. He plays hard most of the time, and he seems to want to win.

      He isn’t a leader. He isn’t unselfish. He doesn’t elevate his teammates. He ran his coach out of town and seemed to resent the success of a scrub. He has plenty of flaws. But – he IS a good player. If after his knee surgery he continues to be a good player, and opts into the system even 50%, the team will do OK.

      Expecting anything more from either Melo or the team is pointless. He is who he is, and we should appreciate that instead of wishing for him to be someone else. Meanwhile, we have a solid foundation for a good team going forward. That’s better than we’ve had since – well, since Melo led to that team being gutted in the first place.

    136. @174 I don’t think I disagree with anything you said. Melo is a good player who’s paid like an elite player. That’s far from ideal, but doesn’t preclude a team from being good. It just makes it more difficult and consequently less likely.

    137. I am worried about the guard position. I believe that many of the bad or good stretches of the Melo’s Knicks have to do with our PG play. When we have good PG play the offense has been very nice with Melo on the floor, when we havent, we’ve been stuck with ISO-Melo. Melo is not a natural distributor, and to take advantage of the attention he grabs, he needs someone to help him (the famous ‘hockey assist’, Melo can’t make the assist himself, but can give it back to the perimeter where someone can take advantage of the imbalance and make the assist).

      OTOH, Robin Lopez and KoQ looks like a nice big rotation that fit with Melo. I am not too thrilled with Afflalo, but if he is healthy, he can fill the SG minutes at league average level. Good PG play, Melo and this frontcourt makes us a playoff team.

      So actually i believe the Knicks depend much more on Grant being good than on Porzingis being good.

    138. The Knicks are really going to need Melo to play at the level he did in the 2012-2013 and 2013-2014 seasons, or their offense is going to be dreadful. There is not really a good #2 scoring option on the team.

      If he is obviously slowed by the knee surgery, and his TS% is down in .530 land, it’s not gonna be a good offensive team.

    139. If Melo is obviously worse because of the knee surgery, which is probably completely within the realm of possibility for a 31 year old coming off major knee surgery, that very well may preclude us from being good at any point in the semi-near future.

    140. Grant has shown a great ability to penatrate. Thats something we havent seen since Lin. His summer league play has caused me to change my stance on the starting lineup. I would start :

      Calderon
      Grant
      Aflalo
      Melo
      Lopez

      First man off the bench would be Porzee for Calderon creating the lineup of

      Grant
      Aflalo
      Melo
      Porzingis
      Lopez

    141. Anyone expecting Grant to be worthy of starting is going to be very disappointed.

      Does no one remember what summer league is?

    142. “He ran his coach out of town”

      http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/7686638/new-york-knicks-coach-mike-dantoni-resigns

      That article is a boatload of hogwash.

      The reason D’Antoni resigned was that Melo REFUSED to play within the system and the locker room was splintering between Melo and JR (the morons) vs. Amare, Lin, Fields and others. D’Antoni asked management to either trade Melo or he would have to leave. They chose Melo. So he resigned.

      There were multiple articles early in the season that quoted Amare saying that all the players had to play within the system or it wouldn’t work and pointing out how successful the offense was in Phoenix. The articles made it pretty clear he was referring to Melo.

      There were articles quoting people connected to Melo whining that if D’Antoni was going to keep Melo on the perimeter they should have just kept Gallo, strongly hinting that Melo was unhappy.

      If you watched the games you could see times that Melo was clearly not giving 100% & going outside the system. So he was either hurt, purposely trying to force a change in the system, or trying to drive D’Antoni out. As soon as Woodson took over he was back to giving 100%.

      It was reported that Lin had a blowup with Melo after one game where Melo refused t0o play within the system. Lin froze him out of the game and refused to give him the ball in the post.

      It was a mess.

      All a coach can do is ask the players to play the way he thinks will get the best results. If the players refuse, management has to make a choice and they usually side with the players.

      The same thing happened in LA. Kobe, Gasol, Hill, and a couple of others didn’t like the roles and positions he was putting them in. At the end of the season D’Antinoi told management he could not be effective without an extension because they would not respect his authority if he was a lame duck coach. The refused. He left.

      Now everyone is moving his way.

    143. @181 The problem is that you need to have either Grant or Calderon on the court at all times- Galloway is not a point guard- even in the triangle. I think the natural pairings are Calderon + Galloway and Grant + Afflalo. Calderon/Afflalo is too weak defensively. Galloway/Afflalo has zero playmaking skill. Grant/Galloway can play together some too though it won’t be a great shooting pair unless Galloway improves. Ideally, the Knicks would move Calderon or Gallo for a better two-way guard. Any way you slice it the Knicks’ backcourt is one of the worst in the league.

    144. Both Grant and Kristaps are probably gonna be bad next year. Just keep that in mind.

    145. I refuse to talk about Dantoni again. It is what it is. If you want to side with a guy who quit twice then cool. do that. But he was a terrible coach. And cant adapt to his talent.

      Now the PG situation is tricky and after i sub out Calderon i would probably sub him in for Grant.

      “Anyone expecting Grant to be worthy of starting is going to be very disappointed.

      Does no one remember what summer league is?”

      he doesnt have to be great. Just penatrate, thats really it.

    146. “Both Grant and Kristaps are probably gonna be bad next year. Just keep that in mind.”

      Yeah of course. But i want them to get in there.

    147. NYK players who will probably have a .100 WS48 or higher: Lopez, Melo, O’Quinn

      NYK players who will probably have lower than a .100 WS48: Calderon, Grant, Afflalo, Galloway, Early, Thomas, Williams, Porzingis, Amundson

      Not exactly sure how you put a playoff team together with that, unless several of the players from the second group join the guys in the first group.

    148. @ 181

      That is the same line up I would not mind going with but the rotation won’t work with out another back up 2 or pg.

      I mean when do you sub for Grant at the 4min mark? You probably want Afflalo out then too because you want him back early in the 2nd to help Calderon when he returns. So, now you only have Galloway left to fill the PG/SG positions. I guess since Ledo has a partial guaranteed you can pencil him in there but I am not sure he makes the squad.

      It would be nice if Kevin Martin is available but the knicks couldn’t get him any way unless they have the rights to Travis Wear and sign and trade him with Ledo plus other assets. I’m surprised Cleveland hasn’t offered Heywood and a 1st for him.

      Back to reality, I do not see how that line up would work without a quality back up. How nice would it have been for Derrick Williams to sign a contract like Thomas Robinson and the Knicks picked up C.J. Watson or even sign Lou and Thomas to vet minimum deals and use the 3.2m to sign Williams.
      If only the knicks never cut Lou or Lance they would have retained their rights and could have went over the cap to sign them to their current contracts I believe.

    149. NYK players who will probably have a .100 WS48 or higher: Lopez, Melo, O’Quinn

      Knicks who had a .100 WS48 last season: Shved, Stat, and Cole. At least Lopez, Melo and O’Quinn should play significant minutes

    150. Things are probably not going to go either all right or all wrong…

      NYK players who will probably have a .100 WS48 or higher: Lopez, Melo, O’Quinn

      NYK players who will probably have lower than a .100 WS48: Calderon, Grant, Afflalo, Galloway, Early, Thomas, Williams, Porzingis, Amundson

      Not exactly sure how you put a playoff team together with that, unless several of the players from the second group join the guys in the first group.

      Playoff bar is pretty low in the East. The Nets, last season’s 8 seed, had two players with WS/48 above .100 who played even 400 minutes. (4th and 7th on the team in minutes.)

      One of the Knicks two first round picks is good, Calderon or Afflalo turn back the clock literally only to 2013-14… and suddenly the Knicks have 4-7 “good” players in their rotation. I don’t think any of us really think that WS/48 is an all-encompassing stat, though.

    151. That is the same line up I would not mind going with but the rotation won’t work with out another back up 2 or pg.

      I’d always like more good players, but 3 Gs in an 8-man rotation is pretty common. I’d guess O’Quinn, DW, or Zinger will end up as a starting F alongside Melo, with Afflalo at the 2 and Grant or Calderon coming off the bench. (I’m not as high on Galloway as many, but maybe he carves out a spot on the edge of the rotation.)

    152. Both Grant and Kristaps are probably gonna be bad next year. Just keep that in mind.

      I suspect most people here know that and are OK with it. I’d even go so far as to say that there is no shortage of Knick fans who are hungry to see this franchise finally go through the long, painstaking process of a ground up rebuild, even with all of the attendant growing pains.

      In 2009, the Warriors were a perennial laughingstock when they drafted Steph Curry. Although the team only managed to win ten more games that year than it had in ’08-’09, the addition of Curry turned out to be the first baby step en route to a title six years later. Zinger may never pan out to be quite the foundational piece that Curry was but I believe most sentient Knick fans are willing to give him a few years grace before making that determination.

      I think you’d have to go back to the ’80s to find the last time Knicks’ management exhibited anything resembling the patience needed for a multi-year, step-by-step rebuild. At this point, I would much prefer a 20 something win season leavened with the occasional flashes of hope for the future to 40 odd wins from an aging, capped out squad and no decent draft picks on the horizon. That’s been the model here for far too long and I know I’m not the only one who’s thoroughly sick of it.

      The $64 million question, of course, is the willingness of the team’s aging superstar and famously impetuous owner to embrace the long view and stay the course. ATM, I remain somewhat heartened that Phil’s cachet will serve as a bulwark against those potentially corrosive influences. Whether that can hold up for the 2-3 years that Zinger figures to need to realize his star potential is anyone’s guess. But for the time being, I’m happy to endure yet another shitty season, watching a highly drafted rookie who’s much too green for the NBA. with the expectation that the most I’ll get out of it is hope.

    153. NYK players who will probably have a .100 WS48 or higher: Lopez, Melo, O’Quinn

      NYK players who will probably have lower than a .100 WS48: Calderon, Grant, Afflalo, Galloway, Early, Thomas, Williams, Porzingis, Amundson

      Not exactly sure how you put a playoff team together with that, unless several of the players from the second group join the guys in the first group.

      Having a .100 cutoff in WS48 is fairly aribtrary. You don’t need to be average to make the playoffs in the East or at least compete for the last spot.

    154. Both Grant and Kristaps are probably gonna be bad next year. Just keep that in mind.

      Yeah, I mean Grant is probably gonna be bad always just going on average returns for a #19 pick. Even at #4, the median outcome is probably about a league average producer.

      The thing about rookies, though, is that the wide range of outcomes and somewhat dichotomous outcomes. If those picks are ever going to work out, there’s a pretty good chance that the Knicks will get a decent (if limited) contribution in their rookie years. That is to say, there’s reason for hope.

      I think you’d have to go back to the ’80s to find the last time Knicks’ management exhibited anything resembling the patience needed for a multi-year, step-by-step rebuild.

      Certainly there’s just been a ton of mismanagement (if they had made better moves, they also might not have had to rebuild for multiple years), but I think part of it is that there’s been a bit of a vicious cycle created by trading away picks. One of the main advantages of a multi-year rebuild is that you get multiple chances to strike lottery gold. Once previous regimes had already traded away future draft picks, the incentive for future regimes to rebuild wasn’t as great. When you have to wait three years to get that 2nd lottery pick and five years to get the 3rd one… the incentive to rebuild just isn’t as great. Of course, the next guy tended to just trade away more picks in bad deals and further the problem.

      I think Jax has left himself the flexibility to take advantage of that 2017 lottery pick if things don’t work out, but I also think he’d rather get better in a hurry and not have to worry about having a lottery pick in 2017. While he certainly may take some time to develop, it’s also pretty likely that Zinger is somewhat productive early on if he’s ever going to be good.

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