Knicks Morning News (2015.07.09)

  • [New York Times] New Stat-Tracking Coming to NBA Summer League (Thu, 09 Jul 2015 06:49:41 GMT)

    Diving for loose balls, getting a hand in passing lanes for a deflection, being close enough to contest a shot, or sacrificing the body and taking a charge.

  • [New York Times] Jordan Spurns Mavericks for Clippers After Teammates’ Plea (Thu, 09 Jul 2015 05:25:38 GMT)

    DeAndre Jordan gave the Dallas Mavericks his word. Then he gave the Los Angeles Clippers his signature.

  • [New York Times] Sports Briefing | Pro Basketball: N.B.A. Salary Cap Is Set (Thu, 09 Jul 2015 04:51:46 GMT)

    The N.B.A. salary cap has been set for next season at $70 million, a higher-than-expected number that paves the way for free-agent contracts to be signed.

  • [New York Times] DeAndre Jordan Rejoins Clippers, Spurning Mavericks (Thu, 09 Jul 2015 04:45:46 GMT)

    DeAndre Jordan reneged on his oral agreement to join the Mavericks and re-signed with the Clippers, who had sent Coach Doc Rivers and several players to persuade him to return.

  • [New York Times] More Than 15,000 Show Up to Watch Timberwolves Scrimmage (Thu, 09 Jul 2015 04:31:38 GMT)

    With a between-the-legs slam dunk and a 3-pointer from the top of the arch, No. 1 overall draft pick Karl-Anthony Towns made quite an impression in his first action in front of Minnesota Timberwolves fans.

  • [New York Times] Overhauled Knicks Set to Take the Court (Thu, 09 Jul 2015 03:21:57 GMT)

    The Knicks are aiming for a slow rebuild of their roster, a revamp that will continue over the next couple of weeks as their summer-league team competes in five games.

  • [New York Times] AP Source: Free Agent Jeremy Lin Agrees With Hornets (Thu, 09 Jul 2015 02:37:38 GMT)

    The Charlotte Hornets have agreed to a contract with free agent Jeremy Lin, a person familiar with the situation said Wednesday night.

  • [New York Times] NBA 2015-16 Salary Cap Rises to All-Time High of $70 Million (Thu, 09 Jul 2015 01:16:41 GMT)

    The NBA salary cap was set Wednesday for next season at $70 million, a higher-than-expected number that paves the way for free agent contracts to be signed.

  • Liked it? Take a second to support Mike Kurylo on Patreon!

    Mike Kurylo

    Mike Kurylo is the founder and editor of KnickerBlogger.net. His book on the 2012 Knicks, "We’ll Always Have Linsanity," is on sale now. Follow him on twitter (@KnickerBlogger).

    258 thoughts to “Knicks Morning News (2015.07.09)”

    1. http://espn.go.com/blog/new-york-knicks/post/_/id/62590/what-a-higher-salary-cap-means-for-knicks

      So we will probably have about $3 million under the cap, PLUS the room exception, rather than just the room exception. Gives us a chance to keep Shved and either sign another player or hold onto some money in case someone interesting turns up at mid-season.

      Also of note in there:

      Earlier in free agency, they expressed interest in guard John Jenkins. But Jenkins is not believed to be a strong candidate for the Knicks’ remaining roster spots, sources say.

    2. And from the department of worthless…

      Guys who have looked good in Summer League so far:

      Myles Turner (dude is like Rudy Gobert and Qyntel Woods had a summer league baby)
      Stanley Johnson (he looks so much smaller than in NCAA but he has dominated on both ends)
      Aaron Gordon (ignore everyone in summer league, but especially sophomores)

      Guys who have looked so-so
      Okafor (years above competition in post game, also looked pretty good in PNR, not nearly as big a size advantage here, defense still really unimpressive)
      Hezonja (Hi’s are real high, but lows too)
      Kaminsky (not too optimistic about him, may be biased against, defense a problem)

      Guys who have looked pretty bad
      Winslow (big fan here but he has not looked good, surprisingly good handle running a lot of point, size looks good, but weak decision making and shooting/finishing, weak hustle, and not even close to the loose ball fiend that Stanley Johnson has been, defense good when hustling)

    3. ^^^agreed. Myles looks tremendous. He got the 1975 looking jumpshot but it’s so on the money. he just needs to get a lil stronger….all of his shots seem to be fading hooks or fading jumpers or step back jumpers (aside from his spot up shots).

      Stanley is just so fast and strong that most guys in summer league stand no chance man. His jumper also looks beautiful — form wasn’t bad before but now it’s downright picturesque. The Funny thing about Stanley is that despite being diesel and fast, he’s gonna have to have a tony parker / TJ Warren-like arsenal of floaters and finishes since he can’t jump over a shoebox. He’s hitting em in summer league, but we’ll see if it works in the nba. I suspect he’ll get just good enough at bumping people artest style and hitting quick layups to be successful this year.

    4. Regarding DeAndre Jordan: It seemed highly likely that the league was going to change the Hack-a-DeAndre rule. Does what happened yesterday change that? How can the league bail this guy out?

    5. A lot of posters expressed surprise about the current sequence of having one week where free agents commit orally before actually signing. I suspect the answer lies in the CBA, and that the sequence can’t be changed easily. Since the cap is a percentage of Basketball Related Income (BRI), you have to know how much income the season before produced and that season includes the finals which just took place a few weeks ago. Probably the CBA defines the period for last season’s BRI as July 1, 2014 to June 30, 2015. So the league has to get all the sales data for broadcast revenue, arena revenue, basketball gear and such in some sort of audit-able form in order to set the cap. I say audit-able, because they have to explain the number to the player’s union and probably have to have some accounting firm vouch for it. A week to do that doesn’t seem very long to me. Player contract year end dates are probably also set by the CBA to end on June 30, so that the player costs correspond to the same set of months the cap is set by. Before June 30th, it’s tampering if some owner talks to a player whose contract is about to expire. But right after that date, the league can’t prevent negotiations if a player isn’t under contract. So of course the owners start to recruit free agents. I don’t see how to fix the situation without changing everyone’s contract to go from, say, July 10 of the start year to July 9 of the finish year. But that is a lot of work and probably needs the CBA changed along with a ton of individual contracts with players. It might also probably mean they couldn’t start summer league as soon, if some of the contracts have to be in place for that to start.

    6. Hard to imagine how DAJ could come across as any more of a jackass/headcase in this scenario. Not only is he not enough of an adult to actually call the Mavs and tell them he changed his mind (I’m guessing he probably doesn’t handle his affairs of the heart in the most grown-up ways), but he’s so weak willed that the Clips are terrified if they so much as leave his side he’ll change his mind back. He comes across like the guy we’ve all met who’s so desperate to be liked that he always wants to tell everyone he’s with exactly what they want to hear even if it’s a lie.

      I mean talk about a reputation-tarnisher. The Clippers are seriously determined to take their hate-ability to previously unexplored realms.

    7. Its ludicrous… DAJ is such a $22M hack of a player and person… he’s the epitome of naturally “unskilled” HATE EM!

      but I wan’t his $’s

      now that’s analysis

    8. Yeah I wrote this in the last thread but that pretty much confirms that Doc Rivers’s reputation as a mentor of young men is a fraud. If you consider yourself any sort of mentor, there is no way you could allow your “ment-ee” to act like Jordan did last night. It’s fine that he decided to change his mind, but so cowardly/inexcusable to not at least tell Cuban.

    9. Also got to say I feel really bad for Dirk. One of my all-time favorite players to watch, and it really looked like they had the foundation of one last contending team for him to play out his last years with (not a legit title contender this year,but if Matthews got healthy they would have been a prime spot for another max guy next offseason to push them over the top). Now it seems like they’re stuck in the worst possible area. Not bad enough to go full tank and keep their pick, not good enough to make the playoffs, let alone really compete. And they’ll need to pull off a heist next offseason to convince someone to come there without DAJ as a piece of the puzzle.

    10. From yesterday’s thread:

      I guess the line between opinion and more factual statements is pretty blurry on a sports blog, but the way people are wording almost all of the comments I’m responding to reads to me more like factual statements.

      That’s not much different than how the tabloids report news, is it? The difference, I feel, is that here most people do substantiate their opinions with statistics, videos and supposed expert scouting reports. Although there are statements made that one would say should be substantiated, the truth is that they were substantiated over months and months of prior debate. When people here say that Bargnani sucks, it actully comes after years of debate. I, as an example, thought Bargnani was going to be a good fit when we traded for him. I was wrong and was convinced of this in late 2013. So asking for that substantiation now might piss people off because they had done their job before and are being asked to prove something that was already proven. Yeah. Bargnani sucks.

    11. A lot of posters expressed surprise about the current sequence of having one week where free agents commit orally before actually signing. I suspect the answer lies in the CBA, and that the sequence can’t be changed easily. Since the cap is a percentage of Basketball Related Income (BRI), you have to know how much income the season before produced and that season includes the finals which just took place a few weeks ago. Probably the CBA defines the period for last season’s BRI as July 1, 2014 to June 30, 2015. So the league has to get all the sales data for broadcast revenue, arena revenue, basketball gear and such in some sort of audit-able form in order to set the cap. I say audit-able, because they have to explain the number to the player’s union and probably have to have some accounting firm vouch for it. A week to do that doesn’t seem very long to me. Player contract year end dates are probably also set by the CBA to end on June 30, so that the player costs correspond to the same set of months the cap is set by. Before June 30th, it’s tampering if some owner talks to a player whose contract is about to expire. But right after that date, the league can’t prevent negotiations if a player isn’t under contract. So of course the owners start to recruit free agents. I don’t see how to fix the situation without changing everyone’s contract to go from, say, July 10 of the start year to July 9 of the finish year. But that is a lot of work and probably needs the CBA changed along with a ton of individual contracts with players. It might also probably mean they couldn’t start summer league as soon, if some of the contracts have to be in place for that to start.

      Either that, or they could define the period for BRI, from 15 June to 14 June next year. So the salary cap would be known by the time of the draft.

    12. It’s fine that he decided to change his mind, but so cowardly/inexcusable to not at least tell Cuban.

      Honestly, I’m not sure I can agree that it’s fine that he decided to change his mind. It may have been “just” a handshake deal, but he backed out of an $80M business deal AFTER the other party to the deal had gone really deep into planning for the fact that they’d have him and given up on any potential contingencies. And he did it so that he could sign an equivalent deal with one of their direct competitors. That’s extremely unethical no matter how you slice it. The fact that he executed it in the most cowardly underhanded manner possible certainly makes it extra notable, but I really don’t think the decision itself is excusable from an ethical standpoint.

    13. Honestly, I’m not sure I can agree that it’s fine that he decided to change his mind. It may have been “just” a handshake deal, but he backed out of an $80M business deal AFTER the other party to the deal had gone really deep into planning for the fact that they’d have him and given up on any potential contingencies. And he did it so that he could sign an equivalent deal with one of their direct competitors. That’s extremely unethical no matter how you slice it. The fact that he executed it in the most cowardly underhanded manner possible certainly makes it extra notable, but I really don’t think the decision itself is excusable from an ethical standpoint.

      One could argue that NBA players are exploited (both in the Marxist sense and in the more basic sense that they’re getting screwed) by management and ownership much like workers in other industries (i.e. their relationship is adversarial, not cooperative), and so don’t have any obligation to act in good faith/”ethically” with regard to management. That’s a very controversial argument, but count me in as one of the people that affirm it. I’m not going to argue in-depth for it, but I was just floating it to show that DJ’s behavior isn’t obviously unethical.

      That being said DJ clearly isn’t good at making up his mind and it definitely wasn’t the most prudent way to go about shitting the bed.

    14. Without getting too deep into the specifics of Jordan’s actions or any existential Marxist debates, if NBA teams don’t want players going back on “handshake deals” then I would suggest they work to change the free agency system. (End the moratorium period. Get firm agreements in place, not “handshake deals.”)

    15. DJ just seems like a child – a young man with tons of cash that is indecisive. That’s forgivable. The root cause lies in the moratorium. It simply makes zero sense. There’s no reason the NBA can’t calculate BRI and subsequently begin free agency.

      DJ’s biggest issue here is that he didn’t talk to Cuban/Parsons. No person accepts a job, then when he changes his mind, runs to his old job and completely ignores the Recruiter/Manager of the new job. He notifies the person he’s about to be employed with that he changed his mind. Only in sports could you not notify your future employer since sources leak all of it. If he had notified Cuban 2-3 days ago when he had second doubts, Mavs could have had a few extra days. It wouldn’t have gotten them LMA or Jordan, but now they have a hole of $20M.

      At best, DeAndre Jordan would have looked like Turkoglu. At worst, he looked like DeAndre Jordan last night.

    16. Without getting too deep into the specifics of Jordan’s actions or any existential Marxist debates, if NBA teams don’t want players going back on “handshake deals” then I would suggest they work to change the free agency system. (End the moratorium period. Get firm agreements in place, not “handshake deals.”)

      This too.

    17. Without getting too deep into the specifics of Jordan’s actions or any existential Marxist debates, if NBA teams don’t want players going back on “handshake deals” then I would suggest they work to change the free agency system. (End the moratorium period. Get firm agreements in place, not “handshake deals.”)

      This too.

      Strongly disagree with Ted and Alecto. In business, a “verbal handshake” does in fact constitute a binding agreement. I imagine that’s based on the interpretation of extent law (perhaps Ephus can comment). But it isn’t just “uncool” to back out of a verbal agreement, it’s actionable.

      Of course, deals can fall apart in the contract negotiation stage, but even then, if you intend on backing out you have to be careful to do so not in bad faith – e.g. you can’t say that the team isn’t providing you with a personal jet to transport you and so you aren’t going to sign; it needs to be a legitimate issue.

      An actual suit is pretty rare in these situations. Then again, so is reneging on an oral commitment.

    18. Mike Kurylo wrote: There is an invisible tea cup circling the earth that is a better basketball player than Andrea Bargnani. And if you disagree, please show tangible evidence to prove it.

      Don’t try to be cute Mike. Ted Nelson’s presence inspires all of us to ensure our comments will hold up under rigorous scrutiny and peer review. That’s why I’m calling you out on titling that Kyle O’Quinn thread a “roundtable” when only you and Cronin were the participants. We could quibble about the minimum required but surely 2 people does not constitute a roundtable. I offer this picture as definitive proof. Couldn’t you have thrown poor Thomas B. a bone and included him to have a real roundtable?

    19. Eh, doesn’t bother me. This happened with Boozer remember? No one really cares once the dust has settled. It’s not like he raped someone like Kobe, he backed out of a deal 2 days later during a grace period.
      Although, I think his original decision was the correct one.

    20. It’s true a verbal agreement is still a legal agreement. But if you say Jordan’s agreement constituted a contract, then the Clippers would argue that there are NBA rules that the player’s union agreed to and the Mavericks agreed to that no contract can be signed before today; and these rules mean that a verbal agreement cannot exist. What is more, the Mavericks would have to sue Jordan personally for damages and prove they suffered financial damage because they relied on their verbal contract with him. It could be hard for them to make a case in court that they were literally poorer because he deprived them of the commitment to spend $80M dollars.

    21. The other thing is that we don’t actually know what the Mavs did in negotiation. Maybe Chandler roofied him. Who knows? The NBA could fix this shit if they wanted to very easily.

    22. Strongly disagree with Ted and Alecto. In business, a “verbal handshake” does in fact constitute a binding agreement. I imagine that’s based on the interpretation of extent law (perhaps Ephus can comment). But it isn’t just “uncool” to back out of a verbal agreement, it’s actionable.

      There has to be a binding deal for that to be the case. I would assume that if you can’t agree to terms with a player during the moratorium, you can’t agree to terms during that period. I doubt Dallas can say “we are taking legal action to enforce the deal that we didn’t have grounds to make.”

      A bunch of non-lawyers with no inside knowledge of what took place discussing the legality of what took place is about as useful as a bunch of non-doctors with no inside knowledge discussing when and how a player will recover from injury based on the body-part he hurt.

      An actual suit is pretty rare in these situations. Then again, so is reneging on an oral commitment.

      Going back on a loose oral agreement is hardly rare. I am not condoning it, but a lot of people on here are acting as if everyone in the world is an angel. In my experience most people are fairly self-interested, mediocre communicators, and not all that professional.

    23. I would never do business with Deandre Jordan. I would never do business with the management, coaches and players that were actively involved last night. I’d be less likely to do business with anyone that is defending this on any grounds.

      There is nothing wrong with changing your mind in business. It happens all the time. There is definitely something unethical about backing out of a verbal commitment to a prospective business partner. That goes double if you damage your partner when you go back on your word. That goes triple when you don’t communicate to that partner the moment you are having second thoughts so he can create a contingency plan.

      I fully understand that the Clipper players and management were anxious to to keep Jordan, but once you start encouraging that unethical behavior you are part of it.

      I couldn’t give a crap about the legality of this. Obviously it’s all legal and people will argue that all is fair in love, war, etc… This is just not the right way to conduct yourself or a league.

    24. the Clippers would argue that there are NBA rules that the player’s union agreed to and the Mavericks agreed to that no contract can be signed before today; and these rules mean that a verbal agreement cannot exist.

      Interesting interpretation. Not sure that it would fly, but it’s at least a potential argument.

      But I don’t think there’ll be an argument; damages are hard to prove, as you say, though a case could certainly be made that it will affect the Mavs financially. If Cuban were to press a suit, however, it might make agents wary of dealing with him, because they wouldn’t want to be caught in a similar situation. So there are social factors to consider, just as there are negative social factors to consider for DAJ and his agent.

      I’m just saying that there is a legal basis for a suit, and one that, despite your clever counter-argument, is potentially valid. It isn’t “no big deal” – it’s a big deal. Even though Cuban is extremely unlikely to take action.

      If it had happened the other way and Sterling were still the owner, I wonder if he would have sued? That would have taken the craziness to a whole other level…

    25. If Lebron had called Cuban 2 days ago and said I really would like to take my talents to Dallas for that money you offered DAJ, I wonder what Cuban would have done.

    26. Interesting interpretation. Not sure that it would fly, but it’s at least a potential argument.

      I don’t see how it would not fly. The Mavericks couldn’t sign Jordan and Jordan couldn’t sign with the Mavericks. That’s the whole point of the moratorium.

      I’m just saying that there is a legal basis for a suit, and one that, despite your clever counter-argument, is potentially valid.

      I think that is incorrect.

    27. A bunch of non-lawyers with no inside knowledge of what took place discussing the legality of what took place is about as useful as a bunch of non-doctors with no inside knowledge discussing when and how a player will recover from injury based on the body-part he hurt.

      Actually, Ted, it’s my business. Can you substantiate your position? Ah, here’s your substantiation:

      Going back on a loose oral agreement is hardly rare. I am not condoning it, but a lot of people on here are acting as if everyone in the world is an angel. In my experience most people are fairly self-interested, mediocre communicators, and not all that professional.

      It has nothing to do with being an angel; it has to do with what is legal. KnickFaninNJ may be right that no binding legal agreement can exist during the moratorium position (though I doubt it, as commercial lawyers tend to take into account how people actually do business). But what you’ve experienced has no bearing whatsoever on the question of whether it’s legal.

      On the other hand, as it is in my area of expertise – not legally, but in business – my observation may actually mean something, compared to your “experience.” Unless you have some factual data you can marshal to demonstrate that case law doesn’t support my argument.

      Maybe Chandler roofied him.

      Now THAT’S actionable.

    28. afaik… a verbal agreement is only an agreement until one party acts upon their part of the agreement… it’s always enforced on a case by case basis and depends on a lot of things but particularly how much was actually done before a grievance was filed… if you have a handshake deal of an exchange of goods/services for money… if you’ve cashed a check you’re going to be obligated to perform your end of the deal…

      the mavs don’t have much of a case especially with the cba in the way…

    29. In the entertainment industry, a verbal agreement is binding. The precedent was famously set when Kim Bassinger went back on a verbal agreement to appear in Boxing Helena and the court made her pay $8.9 million.

      (Y’all probably haven’t seen Boxing Helena, but I can tell you this: It was probably the best $8.9 million she ever spent.)

    30. There is definitely something unethical about backing out of a verbal commitment to a prospective business partner.

      I don’t see how you can possibly say that without knowing what specifically Jordan and Fegan said to the Mavs. If they said “we will sign with Dallas,” that is different than if they said “at this time we believe that we will sign with Dallas, let’s meet again on the first day of free agency to finalize a deal.” Considering that Fegan is one of the most experienced agents in the NBA, I would guess it was something closer to the latter. (And the latter is different even from saying something like “we believe we will sign with Dallas, but we’re still going to weigh our options until free agency opens.”)

    31. I took a look at the CBA, and the section on the Moratorium Period reads ” no player and Team may enter into any oral or written agreement concerning terms and conditions of the player’s employment, or reduce any such agreement to writing in the form of a Uniform Player Contract or amendment, during the Moratorium Period. “

    32. Actually, Ted, it’s my business. Can you substantiate your position? Ah, here’s your substantiation:

      No, my substantiation is that the Mavericks could not possibly agree to terms with Jordan during the moratorium. I have said that multiple times now.

      If you are, in fact, a lawyer… you’d know that even if they could enter into a deal you can’t decide without knowing what Fegan and Jordan actually said to the Mavs. Fegan is a lawyer who graduated Yale Law School, by the way.

      It has nothing to do with being an angel; it has to do with what is legal. KnickFaninNJ may be right that no binding legal agreement can exist during the moratorium position (though I doubt it, as commercial lawyers tend to take into account how people actually do business).

      That is not KickFaninNJ’s position, it is the point of the moratorium.

      On the other hand, as it is in my area of expertise – not legally, but in business – my observation may actually mean something, compared to your “experience.” Unless you have some factual data you can marshal to demonstrate that case law doesn’t support my argument.

      Again, my experience with people had nothing to do with the legality of the matter.

      NBA free agency is collectively bargained. The evidence will be in the CBA, not case law.

    33. I don’t see how you can possibly say that without knowing what specifically Jordan and Fegan said to the Mavs.

      Now THAT is absolutely true, and it matters, of course. Good agents are very careful with how they word things, and without a doubt we do not know EXACTLY what was said. Which means there might be no case, even setting aside the question of a moratorium.

      But again, the only point I’m making, and one supported by law (as Donnie points out, in the same industry, as “sports” is classified as “entertainment”), is that breaking a verbal agreement is NOT minor and is actionable.

      And when it comes to reality town, what really matters is what the judge decides … which is often unpredictable, and not always directly related to seemingly clear concepts like a “moratorium period.” That’s why most cases settle – ’cause you never know.

    34. Now THAT is absolutely true, and it matters, of course. Good agents are very careful with how they word things, and without a doubt we do not know EXACTLY what was said. Which means there might be no case, even setting aside the question of a moratorium.

      You can’t set aside the moratorium. It forbids players and teams from entering into agreements. Someone literally quoted the CBA. What else is it going to take for you to get it?

      But again, the only point I’m making, and one supported by law (as Donnie points out, in the same industry, as “sports” is classified as “entertainment”), is that breaking a verbal agreement is NOT minor and is actionable.

      That point is irrelevant, because the NBA has a collective bargaining agreement that forbids players and teams from entering into agreements outside of certain periods of time and these conversations took place outside of those periods.

      And when it comes to reality town, what really matters is what the judge decides … which is often unpredictable, and not always directly related to seemingly clear concepts like a “moratorium period.” That’s why most cases settle – ’cause you never know.

      Again… the NBA has a CBA. The Mavs can’t just take a player to court because they feel like it.

    35. The fact that DJ backed out seems to indicate a need for change. I’m not sure what system would work better. First of all, I imagine that any substantial changes would need to be collectively bargained. Second, I feel that a good system is self-enforcing. What I mean by that is that if I was a GM now and Jordan was a free agent, I wouldn’t touch him with a 10-foot pole. Who would want to deal with that? If Cuban backed out on him, who would ever sign with the Mavs again? In this case Cuban can’t win and Jordan won’t lose so the system is not self-enforcing.

      And here we are discussing how binding verbal agreements are when you have college coaches that bolt on their contracts all the time with no consequences. They promise kids they’ll be there for them for 4 years when they recruit and then, a few months later they’re coaching another team.

    36. With 3 mil extra in cap space, I hope Phil brings Cole, Shved, and Amundson back. If Labeyrie is any good, I wouldn’t mind seeing him and Thanasis on the squad this season. I definitely would like to see Thanasis over Lance Thomas- though Thomas did show the ability to knock down a corner 3 and play both Forward spots. I’m picking Thanasis because we need more wing athletes. The team has 5 roster spots left? Or 6? I can’t remember. But either way, I vote for filling out the roster with Cole, Shved, Amundson, Thanasis, and Labeyrie or Marcus Thornton. As far as Cole returning goes, on Phil’s best teams (Bulls) he rotated 3 C’s playing 15-20 mpg. So I can definitely see Fish optimizing what Lopez does by giving him 25 mpg, and then splitting the rest of the C minutes between Cole and O’Quinn- which also optimizes what they do. And they bring different things to the table, different looks. That pretty much sticks Porzingis at the 4- which I think is good for him.

    37. From my vantage point if the Mavs tried to argue that Jordan backed out of a verbal agreement, they’d be admitting to entering into such an agreement during the moratorium, which is illegal under the CBA. Is there anything I’m missing? Seems like nothing to see here.

    38. Or….maybe Phil can bring in Big Brody for some back up PF minutes just so he can foul somebody and shout “I GOT A BALD HEAD!!!” lol..I kid I kid!!

    39. I don’t see how you can possibly say that without knowing what specifically Jordan and Fegan said to the Mavs. If they said “we will sign with Dallas,” that is different than if they said “at this time we believe that we will sign with Dallas, let’s meet again on the first day of free agency to finalize a deal.” Considering that Fegan is one of the most experienced agents in the NBA, I would guess it was something closer to the latter. (And the latter is different even from saying something like “we believe we will sign with Dallas, but we’re still going to weigh our options until free agency opens.”)

      Ted,

      To me, this is about ethics and appropriate business practices, not legality. There are lots of things that are legal that fall into the category of terrible behavior. You are grasping at straws to be contrarian.

      The way things are typically done is that you meet with several teams, negotiate, perhaps discuss it with your family and agent, and eventually make a decision that gets released to the interested teams and ultimately the public. Then everyone moves on from there to Plan B, Plan C etc… At the appropriate date you sign off. That’s why we rarely get to this point. We were clearly at that stage in the Jordan saga. He was going to the Mavs and everyone had moved on, including the Clippers. If there was even the slightest hedging in what was said, the Clippers would not have thrown in the towel and it would not have been announced. Then Jordan changed his mind and began talking to Clipper players.

    40. There is definitely something unethical about backing out of a verbal commitment to a prospective business partner.

      I don’t see how you can possibly say that without knowing what specifically Jordan and Fegan said to the Mavs. If they said “we will sign with Dallas,” that is different than if they said “at this time we believe that we will sign with Dallas, let’s meet again on the first day of free agency to finalize a deal.” Considering that Fegan is one of the most experienced agents in the NBA, I would guess it was something closer to the latter. (And the latter is different even from saying something like “we believe we will sign with Dallas, but we’re still going to weigh our options until free agency opens.”)

      This is the shittiest interpretation of what it means to act ethically that I have ever seen. Everyone in the room understood that he had agreed to sign with the Mavericks, regardless of whatever legal phrasing was used. He broke that agreement. Finding a loophole in your own statement, so that you’re not “technically” breaking your word while you fuck someone else over is not what it means to act ethically.

    41. I’m with Ess-dog on this. Once the dust settles no one’s gonna care. I’d rather get to watch the Clippers as contenders with DJ, Pierce, and Lance then have both the clips and mavs be bottom tier playoffs team. The top 4 in the west is just insane right now. Has it ever been this good?

    42. From my vantage point if the Mavs tried to argue that Jordan backed out of a verbal agreement, they’d be admitting to entering into such an agreement during the moratorium, which is illegal under the CBA. Is there anything I’m missing? Seems like nothing to see here.

      Not missing much. The article linked to above basically says the CBA governs their relationship with Jordan but maybe they can go after the players association or Clippers with cases they’re not going to win.

      To me, this is about ethics and appropriate business practices, not legality. There are lots of things that are legal that fall into the category of terrible behavior. You are grasping at straws here.

      Again, unless you know what Jordan said you don’t have an ethical argument. That the media reported he would sign with Mavs doesn’t mean that’s what he told the Mavs.

      If he told the Mavs they had the strongest offer but he was still open to other offers… what is ethically wrong about what he did?

      This is the shittiest interpretation of what it means to act ethically that I have ever seen. Everyone in the room understood that he had agreed to sign with the Mavericks, regardless of whatever legal phrasing was used.

      How do you have any idea what was said in that room or what everyone in the room knew? Not everything the media reports includes every detail of what was said.

      Finding a loophole in your own statement, so that you’re not “technically” breaking your word while you fuck someone else over is not what it means to act ethically.

      Is that what I said? I’m pretty sure that what I said is that we don’t know if Jordan actually committed to signing with the Mavs. You have no ethical responsibility to do something that you said you might do… or we’d all be unethical.

    43. The team has 5 roster spots left? Or 6?

      Under contract or soon to be under contract (i.e., free agents and draft picks):

      C: Robin Lopez/Kyle O’Quinn
      F: Carmelo Anthony/Derrick Williams/Kristaps Porzingis/Cleanthony Early
      SG: Arron Afflalo/Langston Galloway
      PG: Jose Calderon/Jerian Grant

      Technically, Galloway’s contract is, like Ricky Ledo’s, unguaranteed, but it’s hard to imagine him not making the final roster. Ledo, Thanassis, Labeyrie and others are playing in summer league in hopes of being invited to veteran camp in the fall. We still have enough money to sign two free agents above the vet minimum (~$3 mil in cap space, plus $2.8 mil room exception, which can’t be combined), and could sign three other guys to minimum contracts beyond that if we want the full 15. Would definitely like to see Shved and at least one of Amundson or Thomas (both of whom are exactly what you want for end of bench filler), and am hopeful at least one of the young guys shows enough in summer league to make the final roster.

    44. RE: The Clippers
      Does Crawford get traded now? I think he should. Unless Redick gets hurt again, or Crawford becomes primarily a PG for the 1st time since his Bulls tenure, I don’t see much playin time for him. He was one of my favorite players when he was a Knick. I kinda hope he gets traded to Cleveland. That would be a great fit for him, plus it gives him a great chance at winning a chip.

    45. I’m pretty sure that what I said is that we don’t know if Jordan actually committed to signing with the Mavs

      Lol. Okay Ted. We don’t know that he actually committed. It was reported by every reporter and news outlet in the world, but I guess we don’t actually “know” it.

    46. Lol. Okay Ted. We don’t know that he actually committed. It was reported by every reporter and news outlet in the world, but I guess we don’t actually “know” it.

      What was reported specifically? Do you really not see the ethical difference between “I will definitely sign with you” and “I will probably sign with you, but not definitely?” (If it’s the latter… Is DeAndre Jordan ethically responsible for censuring the media if they report he said something that isn’t exactly what he said?)

      And how much of an ethical issue is what employer someone chooses to work for anyway? The only reason this is even an issue is because basketball players aren’t at-will employees. Accepting a job and then turning it down two days later has hardly any ethical ramifications. You’re acting like the guy sexually harassed an intern of something…

    47. I think Grant is gonna start our playing more SG than PG. At least for this season, would it be feasible to bring Ridnour in to add another shooter/vet PG?

    48. What else is it going to take for you to get it?

      Ted, it would be good if you refrained from condescending comments. Like Fegan, I too went to an Ivy, graduated magna, made a lot of money doing a similar thing for decades, was in the Times, the Post, and was profiled in the New Yorker (sort of weird and accidental how that happened, but it happened). I have been a party to four lawsuits and won them all (or had them favorably settled). I feel pretty comfortable in my knowledge of how the system works. For all I know, you’re a trial judge, and I should respect your position even more – but whether I did or didn’t, I wouldn’t be as nasty and condescending as you frequently are. Please stop.

      Second, this article essentially outlines the point:

      http://www.mavsmoneyball.com/2015/7/8/8916763/deandre-jordan-legal-lawyer-dallas-mavericks-los-angeles-clippers

      Right, there’s a moratorium period in the CBA. And that in many ways should govern the interpretation of the situation. But it doesn’t necessarily work that way, and Cuban has recourse to multiple options, none of which he’s likely to take, but any of which could in fact succeed on some level.

      The Mavs can’t just take a player to court because they feel like it.

      The Mavs can’t, but Cuban can. Any good attorney will tell you what mine has told me: “we have a strong case, but you never know.” People can sue for ridiculous reasons, and SOMETIMES they win, contrary to all evidence to the contrary (pun intended). Once you’re in the courtroom, nothing is certain.

      So, my point stands: Cuban could make various arguments, one being that the whole system is broken, and a judge could look at it and agree. Because it IS kind of broken.

      Again, what is likely to happen is none of these things. It is more likely to be like the Boozer situation where no one really wants to deal with him after such an ethical breach.

    49. @50 – I agree with your current roster of 10 players that are either signed or who have given the Knick a non-binding verbal commitment. ‘Who are the last 5?’ is a great question.

      Shved, Thomas, Amundson, Thanasis and Ledo are OK candidates, but are there better ones out there as free agents? Why do we only focus on former Knicks?

    50. @54 – our posts crossed but that’s exactly what I’m talking about. Wouldn’t adding guys like Ridnour and Glen Perkins, Tyler Hansborough or Big Baby be better ideas?

    51. I think Grant is gonna start our playing more SG than PG.

      He’s said he prefers being a distributor, so PG seems more likely; have you seen something to the contrary?

    52. Are people seriously outraged over the fact that someone in the world of sports acted less than honorably?

      I mean we’re talking about a milieu in which billionaire team owners now routinely threaten to abandon cities and loyal fanbases unless scarce tax $ are tithed toward a new stadium; in which an owner once attempted to invalidate a contract by hiring a gambler to dig up dirt on one of his players; in which an owner used money from deferred player salaries to invest with Bernie Madoff; in which an owner is exhausting every available legal means to defend his team’s racially offensive name on the grounds that it’s a trademark; and in which our own beloved Guitar Jimmy was cited by the NLRB for offering raises to any employees of his cable company who voted against union representation.

      Allah be praised for the word count otherwise I could go on and on and on. Needless to say, in the cesspool that is the world of sports the biggest and smelliest turds floating around are almost always the owners of teams.

      Yet people are now getting the vapors because some fickle 26 year old player reneged on a verbal agreement? I’m not sure why anyone feels that’s even noteworthy in a business in which values such as honor and acting in good faith have become as antiquated as chivalry.

    53. Shved, Thomas, Amundson, Thanasis and Ledo are OK candidates, but are there better ones out there as free agents? Why do we only focus on former Knicks?

      Because given the amount of turnover the roster’s going to have, with a minimum of six new players asked to play significant roles, there’s value in continuity along the margins. There are better players still out there than, say, Amundson, but he knows the system, will bust his ass in practice, and won’t embarrass the team if he’s pressed into spot minutes, even with his many offensive limitations. Having a few completely low-maintenance guys is good for the coaches and good for the newbies.

      I’m not saying you fill all five spots with guys from last year’s roster and/or Westchester — and would hope that we can do better than Shved with some of the remaining cap space — but some level of continuity, particularly for guys not expected to play much, or at all, isn’t a bad idea.

    54. Galloway’s contract, if I remember right, is partially guaranteed. Like Dalembert’s last season.

    55. Here’s a scenario to ponder.

      The Knicks need a center and they are interested in both Brook and Robin Lopez, but favor Brook. Brooklyn is in competition with the Knicks both in basketball and in business and would like to screw them, but legally. Brooklyn negotiates an agreement with Brook, but does not discloses it and tells Brook to remain quiet also . Brooklyn then tells Brook to go negotiate a contract with the Knicks and give them an agreement that’s firm enough to be announced but with a minor hedge so he can get out of it legally. When Robin gets a deal somewhere else they pull the rug out on the Knicks so they are left empty.

      What’s to stop that kind of behavior if you can give “hedged” statements about joining a new team?

      There are no hedged statements about joining a new team. If the player doesn’t give a firm verbal agreement, it doesn’t get announced. He may not be legally bound, but we are talking about ethics.

    56. @59
      +1. I’ve got enough to be concerned about being a fan of a team owned by Jim Dolan and still in league with the spectre of Isiah Thomas…

    57. @57,
      I don’t know about the other guys, but I think that for this season Ridnour might be a good idea. Maybe Psycho (I’m still afraid of Metta World Peace) T or Big Baby. Actually, if his asking price isn’t too high, Big Baby might be a great addition. But the downside is he will definitely keep Porzingis off the floor more often than not this season.
      @58,
      That’s the beauty of the triangle. Unless you are Kobe or Jordan, it doesn’t matter as much which guard spot you play. More specifically with Melo being a forward, each guard has a great chance of distributing and spotting up for open shots. So it’s good for Grant either way. I project him at SG because of his size (nearly 6’5″), and Afflalo is the only real competition for Grant at that spot. No way he beats out Calderon (if he’s healthy), and Galloway has an edge with his prior experience in the system. That’s not to say he can’t or won’t beat out Galloway for PG minutes though, because he most certainly can. I found myself rooting hard as hell for Galloway last season so I hope he takes a big step forward this season. But I also think that Grant will be great at SG because he can create his own shot and create for others. If he was closer to 6’3″ instead of 6’5″ it would be a different story. One thing’s for sure though, adding him was a stroke of genius. He fits the triangle so well. I can’t wait for the first summer league game.

    58. @alsep73 – we agree. I want Thanasis on the team because I really think he has a high upside. I want only one of Thomas and Amundson. Shved is OK, but eh.

      Tommy Beer tweeted out a list of candidates that we should consider.

      I like something like Glen Perkins, Thansis, Thomas, Ridnour & Caron Butler to fill out the roster.

    59. He may not be legally bound, but we are talking about ethics.

      Any Miller’s Crossing fans here?

    60. I’d be up for Hansbrough or Teletovic.
      We could also go after Mbah a Moute since we don’t have a real wing stopper.

    61. We seriously talking about Big Baby?

      @65 Grant & Galloway would be the most rootable backcourt we’ve had in a loooonnnng time.

      RoLo & Porzingis (from his comments) look to be pretty rootable, too.

    62. Knicks should get Psycho T. Teletovic is intriguing but is kind of redundant at stretch 4 after Derrick Williams (although he may be better than him?) and has health issues. How the Knicks use the rest of this room is huge. They could definitely do worse than Norris Cole. KJ McDaniels worth a shot if they can swing it. But someone like Boozer or Glen Davis would seem like a waste of a roster spot. I like Shved and Cole at the minimum, but not more than that

    63. I think the $3m will be used in a trade more so than to sign whatever FA is out there. Also, reports are that they offered Shved a Vet min deal and he rejected it. Other teams offered him minimum deals too.

    64. Ted– I need to know the answer to an important question–

      When the league gets rid of both the moratorium and intentional fouling, which one will be called the DeAndre Jordan rule?

    65. Any Miller’s Crossing fans here?

      Yes, but it’s been decades since I saw it. I mean, if it were as good as Boxing Helena, there might be reason to rewatch, but I’m too busy responding to Ted to make the time.

    66. I think the $3m will be used in a trade more so than to sign whatever FA is out there. Also, reports are that they offered Shved a Vet min deal and he rejected it. Other teams offered him minimum deals too.

      Also not opposed to this although I’m not as sure now who needs to dump players now that the cap is higher than anyone projected.

      Also: Gerald Green signed for the minimum? How did we miss out on that?

    67. @65 Grant & Galloway would be the most rootable backcourt we’ve had in a loooonnnng time.

      Indeed!! Exactly why I can’t wait to see them play in the Summer League. That’s most likely the starting backcourt in Vegas. Should be fun to watch!

    68. And Rama I wasn’t saying it want actionable–it seems like it is, though I’m not a legal expert. By quoting Ted Nelson I was just agreeing that the moratorium system is poorly designed. I also think DJ is (morally, perhaps not legally) faultless for his reneging. But by quoting Ted I only meant to affirm the former.

    69. whether I did or didn’t, I wouldn’t be as nasty and condescending as you frequently are. Please stop.

      When you keep ignoring the facts while simultaneously tooting your own horn, just about anything I say is going to come across as condescending.

      Second, this article essentially outlines the point:

      The Mavs can’t, but Cuban can. Any good attorney will tell you what mine has told me: “we have a strong case, but you never know.” People can sue for ridiculous reasons, and SOMETIMES they win, contrary to all evidence to the contrary (pun intended). Once you’re in the courtroom, nothing is certain.

      Did you actually read that article? It provides ways Cuban can take action against the NBAPA and Clippers. (This is not condescending, by the way. It is what the article says.)

      So, my point stands: Cuban could make various arguments, one being that the whole system is broken, and a judge could look at it and agree. Because it IS kind of broken.

      No. Your point is wrong. Get over it, get off your high horse about how successful you are in life, and admit that you were wrong.

    70. And Rama I wasn’t saying it want actionable–it seems like it is, though I’m not a legal expert. By quoting Ted Nelson I was just saying that I think the moratorium system is poorly designed. I also think DJ is (morally, perhaps not legally) faultless for his reneging. But by quoting Ted I only meant to affirm the former.

      You should read the article that Rama is misrepresenting. It provides a couple of really, really questionable ways that Cuban can personally take legal action against the NBAPA and the Clippers (one of which is by basically accusing the Clippers of organized crime). The article does not mention any means for him or the Mavs to take action against Jordan for backing out on the “deal” that he never made (and specifically says that they can’t, actually). It also basically says that there’s almost no chance Cuban wins, but he just might be crazy enough to try anyway.

    71. Jesus Ted I don’t think we can say he’s on a high horse until we see him in person, no?

      That was meant as a joke, not condescension. Full disclosure.

    72. We also need a peer reviewed study on what constitutes a “high horse” before we accuse anyone of being on one.

    73. DeAndre Jordan agrees to deal with Mavericks
      Sam Amick, USA TODAY Sports 9:38 p.m. EDT July 3, 2015
      Free agent center DeAndre Jordan has decided to sign with the Dallas Mavericks on a four-year, $80-million deal, a person with knowledge of the situation confirmed to USA TODAY Sports.

      The person spoke on the condition of anonymity because the signing can’t be formalized until the free agency moratorium lifts on July 9.

      The move is a huge boon for the Mavs and a huge blow for the incumbent Los Angeles Clippers.

      That is a report on what was reported at the time. So yes it is ambiguous “a source close to”, but then why bother talking at if all it is is talk until the contract is signed. Form the point of view of someone not in the room everyone looks bad, Jordan, the agent, the Clippers seem particularly childish, and Cuban for driving around texting the man’s family. Maybe people just should not report these things until they are contracts or the NBA needs to do something to close this loophole.

    74. More seriously this ain’t that big of a moral deal guys. Yall take contracts too seriously.

    75. Don’t try to be cute Mike. Ted Nelson’s presence inspires all of us to ensure our comments will hold up under rigorous scrutiny and peer review. That’s why I’m calling you out on titling that Kyle O’Quinn thread a “roundtable” when only you and Cronin were the participants. We could quibble about the minimum required but surely 2 people does not constitute a roundtable. I offer this picture as definitive proof. Couldn’t you have thrown poor Thomas B. a bone and included him to have a real roundtable?

      But where is your proof? Certainly you haven’t even proven the fundamental basics that this site exists, and you all aren’t just figments of my imagination. Nevertheless the definition of a round table, or the equation showing the lower limit of the number participants required to define a round table. Why, I see no reason three people would constitute a round table more than two. Even in the womb I understood that a circle was an infinite number of points and three is no more infinite than two. Until your inferior brain, which can’t even grasp the obvious, can muster the concrete evidence I require, my side stands as the only truth.

    76. It is time for Cuban to man up and get Machiavellian. Call up the Clips and offer Matthews and Dirk for Jordan (after the 90 day moratorium on signed players passes). If they want to win a title while CP3 still have flexible knees they should consider it. Then break the team down for future picks and tank for 3 years. Let Jordan get every offensive touch available and get the #1 pick 3 years in a row. Dump him in his last contract year for a pick.

      If that fails, gift Dirk to GS for a #1 pick 7 years out. Guarantee the Clips never get out of the Western Conference.

      Could you tell I was Italian? :-)

    77. Until your inferior brain, which can’t even grasp the obvious, can muster the concrete evidence I require, my side stands as the only truth.

      I’m fine with some ribbing, but this is blatantly misrepresenting what I’m saying. Asking someone for evidence of how good an NBA player is has nothing to do with having a “superior brain.” Asking a question or for justification of an argument also does not mean that you are taking the opposite side of the argument.

      Your writing style these days seems to be “everything the Knicks do is wrong, every player I don’t like is bad… and I don’t have to show any evidence to justify my positions because surely you all agree with me.” I, for one, am not a fan. I have no problem if you want to say that Derrick Williams, for example, is terrible… but provide some evidence, don’t just say I don’t have to provide evidence because duh.

      I’m not here to call anyone inferior.

    78. The NBA is not that ethical, the draft, salary cap, and max salaries are not that ethical IMO. Im from Seattle and the owner of OKC said he would try to keep the team in Seattle, there was even a stipulation in the sale that said he had to make an honest effort to keep the team there. Anybody interested should watch SonicsGate. The only reason i bring that up is because the wording was very key like Ted has been saying.

    79. The Jordan situation is interesting to me because to come fully to grips with it we want
      to simultaneously take into account the personal and the system perspectives.
      I’m no legal or ethics expert but here’s my hunch about how those two interact:
      Systems for negotiating agreements evolve to maximize parties’ freedom contingent on the expected certainty of the outcome. If the norm within a system is for individuals to honor verbal agreements, negotiations can be conducted freely in ways that minimize the communication and logistical burden of more guarded formal procedures. For that freedom to be preserved when rare violations of trust occur it might be important that violators be seen to experience negative consequences in terms of reputation or other important outcomes so that the expectation that violations will remain rare continues to seem reasonable.
      If that’s so and if Jordan isn’t seen to suffer any important damage from violating the trust the Mavs placed in him, I suspect the system will change to make sure something like this doesn’t happen again.

    80. Must see TV – Clippers at Mavs – DeAndre Jordan goes in for an uncontested dunk and is blindside tackled by Mark Cuban

    81. So the Knicks signed Robin Lopez, Aaron Afflalo and Derrick Williams. I’m sure of it, I think, because I see pictures of them signing their contracts on Twitter. I’ve not heard a word if the trade for O’Quinn is done.

    82. Again, unless you know what Jordan said you don’t have an ethical argument. That the media reported he would sign with Mavs doesn’t mean that’s what he told the Mavs.

      Well, the statements released by Cuban (because DAJ hasnt released any) say that he was totally misled by Jordan. Cuban could very well be lying to everyone (trying to save face), but i believe him until Jordan clarifies the situation (if the Mavs leaked they had an agreement and that wasnt the case, it could be huge and bad for the Mavs)

      So, yeah, i think you can make ethical arguments.

    83. If Lebron had called Cuban 2 days ago and said I really would like to take my talents to Dallas for that money you offered DAJ, I wonder what Cuban would have done.

      Hehe, indeed, but a bit unrealistic, though.

      In that sense, the Knicks were honest with Robin Lopez and told him they had an agreement unless Jordan came here. What would have happened if DAJ signs with the knicks, RoLo goes elsewhere, and then DAJ goes back to the Clippers?

    84. So the Knicks signed Robin Lopez, Aaron Afflalo and Derrick Williams. I’m sure of it, I think, because I see pictures of them signing their contracts on Twitter. I’ve not heard a word if the trade for O’Quinn is done.

      Can you actually see what was written on those papers? Do you have the appropriate legal training to interpret them even if you do? Can you be certain the photos weren’t photoshopped? I’m going to need some more extensive evidence before I believe they’ve actually signed.

    85. the Knicks were honest with Robin Lopez and told him they had an agreement unless Jordan came here.

      That’s an example of how there can be a difference between ethical behavior and what Jordan pulled. In essence Phil said, “We like you, but we like that Jordan dude more”. It was honest but RoLo could have taken offense. It was a risk, but kudos to both for being mature about it.

      @94 -that’s why I said “I think”. Can we get confirmation? A handwriting expert? Fingerprints?

    86. Does anyone know if/when/for how much the Knicks can buy out Willy H from Real Madrid? Lavor?

    87. BTW, one silver lining in this Jordan debacle is the 2016 Mavs draft pick that the Celtics obtained in the Rondo trade is protected 1-7 until 2020. So the Celtics might have to wait a while to cash in (or trade) that one. Boo effin’ hoo.

    88. they will buy him out when the knicks need him… which will probably be next season… there’s no point to starting his clock when he can develop on someone else’s dime…

    89. “Does anyone know if/when/for how much the Knicks can buy out Willy H from Real Madrid?”
      A few hours ago, Hernangomez tweeted that he has one year left on his contract with Real Madrid and that he is going to play out his contract.

    90. I miss Jim Cavan….

      Also Mike, like Zanzibar, I take issue with your stewardship of the site. Given the large amount of dollars you are generating it’s a little shocking to me that you still don’t have the option to append endnotes and a bibiliography to each post. Please correct this immediately.

    91. @98
      Yeah maybe he’s not ready for NBA minutes yet. My interest is partly because of how the Knicks are likely to use KOQ. If Willy H were here this season and could back-up Lopez that would allow KOQ to primarily back up Anthony at the 4 which might be his more natural position.

    92. Well, the statements released by Cuban (because DAJ hasnt released any) say that he was totally misled by Jordan. Cuban could very well be lying to everyone (trying to save face), but i believe him until Jordan clarifies the situation (if the Mavs leaked they had an agreement and that wasnt the case, it could be huge and bad for the Mavs)

      So, yeah, i think you can make ethical arguments.

      I don’t really see much value in deciding that Jordan is unethical and Cuban is ethical based on media reports and a he-said-he-said scenario. (Especially because I feel like there’s some reason to question the latter.) Your argument is basically that you know one side of the story and Jordan is guilty until proven innocent.

      Can you actually see what was written on those papers? Do you have the appropriate legal training to interpret them even if you do? Can you be certain the photos weren’t photoshopped? I’m going to need some more extensive evidence before I believe they’ve actually signed.

      In one case there were reports that an anonymous source says Jordan will sign with the Mavs. In the other there are reports that a player did sign a contract. Do you not see a major difference between the two scenarios?

    93. Also Mike, like Zanzibar, I take issue with your stewardship of the site. Given the large amount of dollars you are generating it’s a little shocking to me that you still don’t have the option to append endnotes and a bibiliography to each post. Please correct this immediately.

      What happened to you in the last few years?

    94. I think that the whole idea of drafting Willy Hernangomez was to get a jump on 2016 when we don’t have a pick. By the way, the 35th pick is a pretty high pick. I’ve read that he would be considered a lottery pick for 2016 had he not been drafted – a pretty stealthy move by Phil if that’s the reality.

    95. @87,

      Ted,

      You’re right that I’m stretching the truth a bit. However in the last few days, more than one person has complained of you being rude in one form or another. And it seems that each time you’ve contradicted them instead of showing any form of contrition. That type of behavior is eventually going to lead to tempers being blown, and things escalating to a point where it upsets the nice balance we’ve had here for some time.

      Second as per my writing style and negativity, I’m not operating under the assumption that everything I say is the absolute truth. However any contradiction to my opinion doesn’t require that I lay out all the facts in the case. I’m not really willing to spend the time to make a solid case to prove Derrick Williams is a bust nor that Andrea Bargnani is a negative to his team, to your standards. If you feel different, you can do the leg work to make your case instead of trying to get others to prove their side.

    96. Oh the Cavan thing is amazing, I miss his writing

      Mike, shouldn’t your table be shaped like a triangle?

    97. In one case there were reports that an anonymous source says Jordan will sign with the Mavs. In the other there are reports that a player did sign a contract. Do you not see a major difference between the two scenarios?

      Ted, I have to tell you that right now I’m struggling just to confirm the actual existence of a person known as “DeAndre Jordan” as right now all I have are a number of media reports claiming that he does, in fact, exist. This being Knickerblogger.com, where you have clearly established that it is no longer sufficient to assume something is true merely because it was widely reported across every possible media outlet, I feel that it’s critical I find some additional evidence on this point before moving on to the even more controversial subject of whether he promised to sign a contract with Dallas last week, which at least one person in the known universe (that’s you!) believes may (possibly) be untrue. I hope to report back with some findings in the next six to eight weeks.

    98. Also Mike, like Zanzibar, I take issue with your stewardship of the site. Given the large amount of dollars you are generating it’s a little shocking to me that you still don’t have the option to append endnotes and a bibiliography to each post. Please correct this immediately.

      Owen, again you cannot prove this site is mine. Nor that I’m even human. What if all these years, I’m just a robot trying to figure out the meaning of love?

      Igor Aleksander, Susan Stuart & Tom Ziemke (2008). Assessing Artificial Consciousness. Journal of Consciousness Studies 15 (7):95-110.

      Aris Alissandrakis, Chrystopher L. Nehaniv & Kerstin Dautenhahn (2004). Towards Robot Cultures?: Learning to Imitate in a Robotic Arm Test-Bed with Dissimilarly Embodied Agents. Interaction Studies 5 (1):3-44.

      Susan Leigh Anderson (2008). Asimov’s “Three Laws of Robotics” and Machine Metaethics. AI and Society 22 (4):477-493.

    99. This being Knickerblogger.com

      KnickerBlogger.Net — although I think I can prove this. Does anyone know Andrew Wiles’ email address?

    100. This being Knickerblogger.com

      KnickerBlogger.Net — although I think I can prove this. Does anyone know Andrew Wiles’ email address?

      See this is what happens when you fail to provide accurate and reliable citations in your posts. Mistakes get made. I hope to do better in the future.

    101. What happened to you in the last few years?

      I decided to make my Knicks fandom slightly less analytical. I’ve been posting here almost as long as you and the truly dispassionate, logical approach to being a customer of Jim Dolan finally almost caused me to have an aneurysm.

      And I had a kid, so I just don’t have as much time to spend on B-Ref and stay on top of the NBA.

      Of the three things above the door at KB I am most interested in humor these days. Lots of very funny people, which I appreciate. If we are going to wait another 5 years for even a hope of championship relevance I’d rather be laughing about it than crying.

    102. Mike,

      I fail to see what any of that has to do with calling someone else inferior. At times I cross the line and am rude, at other times people just get defensive that I question their points and/or take my comments the wrong way. None of that means that I think anyone else is inferior to me.

      At some point, as well, when 90% of your comments on here are meant to do nothing but belittle me in a totally ridiculous way… perhaps it is you who is being rude. “What’s your argument [that Bargnani is worse than a D-Leaguer] or [that Jordan actually acted in an unethical way]” is really not at all comparable to the ridiculous crap you’re posting about this site not existing. I fail to see what is unreasonable about asking people to support their assertions.

      I’m not really willing to spend the time to make a solid case to prove Derrick Williams is a bust nor that Andrea Bargnani is a negative to his team, to your standards. If you feel different, you can do the leg work to make your case instead of trying to get others to prove their side.

      “My standards” are literally putting a single number on the page. You haven’t bothered with that, and I believe you literally said that there’s no reason to explain why Williams is terrible because he just is.

      I did show some simple stats indicating that Williams isn’t all that bad, and you didn’t reply.

    103. @111

      Don’t worry, no one has shown without a doubt that substituting thenamestsam with a replacement level commenter will improve the site.

    104. I decided to make my Knicks fandom slightly less analytical. I’ve been posting here almost as long as you and the truly dispassionate, logical approach to being a customer of Jim Dolan finally almost caused me to have an aneurysm.

      And I had a kid, so I just don’t have as much time to spend on B-Ref and stay on top of the NBA.

      Of the three things above the door at KB I am most interested in humor these days. Lots of very funny people, which I appreciate. If we are going to wait another 5 years for even a hope of championship relevance I’d rather be laughing about it than crying.

      All perfectly reasonable (and I also have changed my approach to being a Dolan customer: abstinence). What I’m confused about is your reaction to me questioning other people’s points. I can appreciate that some people are just joking around or making totally qualitative “I don’t like rooting for that guy” arguments. When someone makes a factual argument, though, I don’t see why they shouldn’t provide some evidence. Especially if their argument is that someone is terrible at their job or a terrible person.

    105. I think we’ll all feel better if Ted takes a page out of Ruruland’s playbook and promises he’ll stop posting here if Derrick Williams turns out to suck as a Knick.

    106. Mike,

      My inability to post pie and flow charts on your site is causing me to lose my temper at you POOPFACE!

      Please see that this is rectified at once.

      Ess

    107. This being Knickerblogger.com, where you have clearly established that it is no longer sufficient to assume something is true merely because it was widely reported across every possible media outlet

      This is the problem, right here. Asked and unanswered: what was reported? The only report someone has copied and pasted says that an anonymous source confirmed that Jordan “had decided to” sign with the Mavs. Is DeAndre Jordan ethically liable for what every anonymous source says that he has decided to do? If that same day another anonymous source had said that DeAndre Jordan “had decided to” sign with the Clippers, is he ethically fucked no matter who he signs with because two different anonymous sources claimed he had made two different decisions?

    108. I think we’ll all feel better if Ted takes a page out of Ruruland’s playbook and promises he’ll stop posting here if Derrick Williams turns out to suck as a Knick.

      You might all feel better if you ended the groupthink party, meeting contrarian voices and simple questions with some response other than public flogging.

    109. I don’t really see much value in deciding that Jordan is unethical and Cuban is ethical based on media reports and a he-said-he-said scenario. (Especially because I feel like there’s some reason to question the latter.) Your argument is basically that you know one side of the story and Jordan is guilty until proven innocent.

      Well, sports related talk has never been about getting value for your time invested.

      Is Cuban guilty until proven innocent? Cuban could get into trouble if what he is saying is false. This is not some outsider reporting, it is one of the interested parties (and consequently, it is ok if you dont believe him, and we can talk about it even if we dont have insider information about wether Cuban is or not lying)

      So yeah, pretty much i’m banking that the one side of the story i know is true. If the side of the story we know is false, i’d say we will know in time, Fegan/Jordan might want to release a statement. It is not like we are passing sentence here, we have time to make amends afterwards.

    110. Ted is bringing up valid points. I have no idea why people insist that he’s wrong. If everyone wants to keep their head in the sand then that’s fine. Wanting to joke around isn’t mutually exclusive with talking rigorously about basketball and attempting to do proper analysis.

      I prefer it when people back up arguments with evidence of some sort or at least understand that their assumptions aren’t facts.

    111. Hey, look, guys! Basketball news!

      Portland signed Enes Kanter to a 4-year, $70 mil max contract, per Woj and the rest of basketball Twitter. Guy can’t play a lick of defense, but he moves well down low. Good move for a franchise essentially starting over post-Aldridge, or a waste of cap space? Or do you think they’re just screwing with the Thunder, forcing them to match and pay a big tax bill?

    112. Thats a crazy contract for Kanter, gonna be interesting to see if OKC matches. From what Ive read to avoid a crazy luxery tax penalty for matching that contract they are gonna have to trade guys like Augustin, Novak etc for nothing to lower the tax hit.

    113. Cuban could get into trouble if what he is saying is false.

      How? If he says that he felt misled, who is anyone else to tell him that he didn’t feel that way? He’s said that Jordan didn’t respond to his calls, but that doesn’t really tell us what Jordan originally said or didn’t say.

      So yeah, pretty much i’m banking that the one side of the story i know is true. If the side of the story we know is false, i’d say we will know in time, Fegan/Jordan might want to release a statement. It is not like we are passing sentence here, we have time to make amends afterwards.

      You are calling another human being unethical. I am perceived as being “rude” for asking people to validate their points, and I get crucified around here. But we need no real evidence to just call someone unethical because, you know, we can just change our mind tomorrow. If we’re going to pull a 180 every time new information comes out, why not just wait to form an opinion until we have decent information… or just not judge others?

      Is Cuban guilty until proven innocent?

      Guilty of what? From what I’ve seen he says that he felt misled and that Jordan didn’t communicate with him. Miscommunication and poor communication are not the same thing as unethical behavior. Cuban can be right and Jordan can be ethical at the same time, based on what I’ve read.

    114. “My standards” are literally putting a single number on the page. You haven’t bothered with that, and I believe you literally said that there’s no reason to explain why Williams is terrible because he just is.

      Here is from the article:
      This guy brings nothing to the table. A moderate amount of scoring volume, at an efficiency that would be embarrassing for a New York city street court, and nothing else. He doesn’t rebound, pass, steal, block shots, or even hit threes or free throws at the rate you’d expect from an NBA player.

      Now I didn’t quote the exact values to those stats, but I did use statistical/objective data. Certainly it’s nowhere near your assertion that I claimed “Williams is terrible because he just is.” I looked at the numbers and determined he was. I didn’t feel the need to post the whole analysis blow by blow.

      I fail to see what is unreasonable about asking people to support their assertions.

      On occasion, no there is nothing wrong with it. But to do it constantly, yes it does get irritating. Especially when you’re taking a minority position (Bargs). Worry about supporting your own claims with facts, and less about making everyone else support theirs. Like Owen I have a family & career to worry about, and less time to sit here & do statistical analysis of the 10th guy on the Knicks roster to determine whether he’s “merely bad instead of terrible.”

      At some point, as well, when 90% of your comments on here are meant to do nothing but belittle me in a totally ridiculous way… perhaps it is you who is being rude.

      True, my comment was definitely rude, and I apologize if it upsets you. Yet with the number of different people joining in, my bet is that some would not openly contest you directly would when subverted under the guise of humor. That more than one was able to pick up on the joke, might mean the caricature is more true than you give…

    115. Here’s my optimistic take on the Knicks offseason:
      We didn’t do anything completely batshit crazy*.

      *Udwary, K. (2015). “Definition Of ‘Batshit Crazy’ And How It Relates To 2015 New York Knickerbockers (NBA) Offseason”. Journal of Statistically Proven Factual Statements 38(2), 336-385.

    116. Does anyone seriously think there wasn’t a verbal agreement between Jordan and the Mavs?

      That “theoretical” agreement was reported endlessly by every single major basketball media source. So everyone knew, including the league and every team interested in him.

      Every team interested in him would have sought verification from the Jordan camp before moving on (assuming he didn’t contact themselves, which he probably did). There were no reports of the Clippers or anyone else continuing the pursuit. They were all moving on, except Dallas because they had him. The reports were on what the losers were looking at as an alternative. That’s telling you they were notified that it was over.

      If it wasn’t true, someone from the Jordan camp would have come forward and called “BS” because a lie or misunderstanding among other potential suitors would have hurt DeAndre’s chance at other potential options. That’s not what they would have wanted if they hadn’t actually made up their minds.

      He told the Mavs he was joining them. Whether Cuban has some legal recourse is a matter left to lawyers, but anyone suggesting that we don’t really know what was said or that this wasn’t terrible behavior is just being difficult. This is not complicated other than the fact that some people will argue about whether water is actually wet.

    117. As for the question of ethics, we the public can’t really answer that. Maybe Jordan’s agent had some shady side agreement with Cuban to steer DeAndre to them. Maybe DeAndre was Ballmer’s pawn in a scheme to screw over Cuban. If he did tell the Mavs he would sign with them and then he reneged, well, that’s a shitty thing to do. The Mavs seem to have relied on his agreement to their detriment. So far that into account if you care what sort of a person DeAndre Jordan is. Just keep in mind that situations like this are why we have written contracts-and even then, people and corporations willfully break contracts all the time. Its not the nicest or most ethical way to conduct yourself, but I don’t think a person is a reprehensible scumbag for doing so.

    118. Ted – I like you and always have and there are few posters on this site if any that I would consider myself more in agreement with vis a vis the nuts and bolts of what the Knicks ought to do to get better. And I always appreciated your support when posters would arrive and basically trash anyone with a statistical bent, which has happened a lot.

      That said, the feng shui of the KB comment threads is also a major concern of mine and always has been. Personally, I think the site is as good and balanced now as it’s ever been. It’s a safe space for people who prize data-driven conclusions and take an analytical approach, while also being a fun place for people who just want to talk Knicks and have a laugh.

      I do appreciate where you are coming from. I would just respectfully offer that perhaps you need not cross examine every assertion on the site quite so vigorously. Just let the good times roll a bit you know?

    119. Here’s a real question-why do we always make dudes sign contracts on clownishly little tables? Is it some sort of Dolan macho headgame?

    120. Mike,

      I don’t think you need to defend yourself.

      I don’t think many people come here to be part of a community where you are required to generate detailed analysis on every aspect of a player’s game in order to make a comment. We all have lives and jobs that take up most of our time. It should be understood that as part of being a die hard Knicks fan with an interest in stats, we all take a look at the stats, read the statistical analysis of others, watch the games, and form conclusions about players that are backed by data. Then we express our opinions. When we have extra time or are taking a controversial view we may point to specific numbers to make the case, but that’s about it. That’s a reasonable standard to make a comment without being given the 3rd degree.

    121. Guilty of what? From what I’ve seen he says that he felt misled and that Jordan didn’t communicate with him. Miscommunication and poor communication are not the same thing as unethical behavior. Cuban can be right and Jordan can be ethical at the same time, based on what I’ve read.

      OK, i read too much into Cuban statement.

      If we’re going to pull a 180 every time new information comes out, why not just wait to form an opinion until we have decent information… or just not judge others?

      Why not? What is decent information? It is in the nature of humans to try to get more information from limited one; although this kind of things dont lend themselves to trial and error and scientific standards. I am aware this information is not enough for anyone to conclude anything, but why censure people? It is objectively newsworthy,who’s responsible for the events (Cuban, DAJ, media,NBA,…) is not clear. Let people work in the hypothetical they want and share their thoughts. I would say it is harmless. Is it really defamation to say in a blog that if as reported DAJ changed his mind and didnt talk to Cuban, it was unethical? Nobody is campaigning for a lapidation.

    122. Here is from the article:

      I remember being struck by a comment that you didn’t have to show that someone is bad because he just is. Maybe I am misremembering or maybe it wasn’t DW.

      Now I didn’t quote the exact values to those stats, but I did use statistical/objective data.

      Used it how? .540 TS% last season with consistent annual improvement is embarrassing? Not that he’s particularly good at rebounding, but did he get worse at rebounding n Sacto or switch roles?

      But to do it constantly, yes it does get irritating. Especially when you’re taking a minority position (Bargs). Worry about supporting your own claims with facts, and less about making everyone else support theirs.

      What position was I taking? That’s a big problem, in my eyes: half the time I ask someone whether their point is right on here, they assume I am arguing their point is wrong… then they commence to argue with me, I tell them they don’t understand what I am saying, and they think I am rude and condescending.

      Like Owen I have a family & career to worry about, and less time to sit here & do statistical analysis of the 10th guy on the Knicks roster to determine whether he’s “merely bad instead of terrible.”

      Then don’t call him terrible. It’s that simple. I am not saying “go do all this work.” I am saying “don’t state things as fact if you’re not going to do an ounce of work to support their validity.”

      That more than one was able to pick up on the joke, might mean the caricature is more true than you give…

      Given the degree to which people (you more than anyone) are misrepresenting my comments and that it’s all the regulars joking, I think it’s more a combination of groupthink from regulars and a failure to understand what I was actually saying.

    123. I’m calling BS on anyone that thinks this was anything other that extremely unprofessional behavior and the kind of behavior that would cause legal issues if it wasn’t for the NBA’s unique arrangement when it comes to free agency. There’s nothing hidden here guys. He committed to Dallas and changed his mind. That severely damaged Dallas’s ability to rebuild the team in free agency. And unless Cuban is lying, he also didn’t communicate that he was having second thoughts to the Mavs so they could have a contingency plan in place. He went to the Clippers first. There isn’t a snowballs chance in hell I’d do business with someone like that and I’d be willing to bet Cuban feels the same way privately even if he’s being professional about it in public for the sake of the NBA and Jordan.

    124. Jeez whas up with the infighting here? LOL. Difference of opinion is normal, but do we hafta take it that far? Personally, I enjoy the debates, info, and back and forth banter here. But at some point every so often, it goes just a bit too far.
      Secondly, why are we talking about DeAndre Jordan? Either way, he’s on a team that most likely won’t win a chip in the near future- so I could care less what he does. Unless he says he’s signing with the Knicks. My 2 cents.

    125. stratomatic,

      Open your mind a little. That someone doesn’t fully agree with you doesn’t mean you should just shut them out. You are ignoring all nuance in what I’m saying and pretending I’m saying something that I’m not.

      Also, what someone asks for some evidence to support an extreme position doesn’t mean they are asking for someone to spend more than two minutes going to a site and grabbing a number.

      As for the question of ethics, we the public can’t really answer that.

      Thank you. That is all I am saying.

      Why not? What is decent information? It is in the nature of humans to try to get more information from limited one; although this kind of things dont lend themselves to trial and error and scientific standards. I am aware this information is not enough for anyone to conclude anything, but why censure people?

      I’m not trying to censure people, I am questioning why they wouldn’t hold their (extremely negative) judgement of others until they have some decent information to go on. If you judge everyone on a first impression or partial information, you’re going to incorrectly judge a lot of people. It’s also not like people are saying “IT SEEMS LIKE, BASED ON WHAT I KNOW Jordan was in the wrong…” they’re saying things like “he is unethical and I would never work with him.” I have no problem with someone saying the former, I don’t understand why someone would say the latter from where we all sit. (And if Jordan offered them $1 million to do some work for them…. I’m sure they’d shove their ethics somewhere specific and work with the man.)

      Is it really defamation to say in a blog that if as reported DAJ changed his mind and didnt talk to Cuban, it was unethical?

      My ENTIRE point is that this is not what people are saying. If they were, I’d be fine with it.

    126. I’m calling BS on anyone that thinks this was anything other that extremely unprofessional behavior and the kind of behavior that would cause legal issues if it wasn’t for the NBA’s unique arrangement when it comes to free agency. There’s nothing hidden here guys. He committed to Dallas and changed his mind.

      Please, please stop. People are allowed to disagree with you. You can’t get angry and fight every person who disagrees with you.

      (And, by the way, if Cuban did some of the things he’s allowed to do to NBA players to regular at-will employees he’d also be in legal trouble… but he’s not… because the NBA does have certain rules in place that have been agreed to by not only the players but also the owners.)

      I do appreciate where you are coming from. I would just respectfully offer that perhaps you need not cross examine every assertion on the site quite so vigorously. Just let the good times roll a bit you know?

      At times I have certainly gone too far or taken an offensive tone, at the same time… in most of those cases I feel like the conversation escalated because I didn’t expect to be attacked for asking someone to justify their statements. (And a bunch of times people seemed to take “how do you know that” as “you’re totally wrong and I think the opposite.”)

    127. It’s also not like people are saying “IT SEEMS LIKE, BASED ON WHAT I KNOW Jordan was in the wrong…” they’re saying things like “he is unethical and I would never work with him.” I have no problem with someone saying the former, I don’t understand why someone would say the latter from where we all sit. (And if Jordan offered them $1 million to do some work for them…. I’m sure they’d shove their ethics somewhere specific and work with the man.)

      It is precisely because we sit where we sit that we can say things like that. I would never dare to say anything similar if i worked for a FO, i would wait to have the complete truth. Actually, i would very careful if i was a journalist, but media standards are really low.

    128. Open your mind a little. That someone doesn’t fully agree with you doesn’t mean you should just shut them out. You are ignoring all nuance in what I’m saying and pretending I’m saying something that I’m not.

      I see what some people are saying as approximately equal to trying to make the case that OJ didn’t do it by throwing out theoretically possible scenarios with absolutely no evidence to back them up . We have a mountain of evidence that suggests he committed to Dallas, changed his mind, contacted the Clippers early in the week, and during that entire time frame neither he or his agent contacted the Mavs to let them know he was having a change of heart so they could do something constructive. That evidence includes Doc’s own words.

      When people do that, they are being contrarian for the sake if being contrarian. It’s a personality trait I know well, because I have to fight it myself. :-)

      And I’m not fighting everyone that disagrees with me. I’m suggesting that this is too obvious for everyone to not see what actually happened.

    129. It’s also not like people are saying “IT SEEMS LIKE, BASED ON WHAT I KNOW Jordan was in the wrong…” they’re saying things like “he is unethical and I would never work with him.”

      Disclaimer: The following post is based on my current understanding of the situation.

      Post:
      So you’re basically on a 35 post tirade in an effort to get everyone to post a disclaimer at the beginning of each post clarifying that their post is based on what they know? Is it not obvious to you that what we post is based on what we know?

    130. Was it unprofessional when Cuban told Don Nelsen he’d fire him if he didn’t play an injured Nowitzki in the playoffs? What about when he tried to fuck Nelsen out of millions of dollars he had agreed to pay him? Cuban is a ruthless motherfucker. How do you think he got so rich? Same goes for Ballmer. Cuban is probably mad he didn’t think of this first.

      This doesn’t mean Jordan and the Clips are good dudes, but this is a shark fight

    131. I think it’s more a combination of groupthink from regulars and a failure to understand what I was actually saying.

      Ted, your contribution lately boils down to “nobody knows what exactly happened [in the case of Jordan] or will happen [in the case of Williams] for 100% certain, so we can’t say anything certain about it.” That is true, of course, but I just said in 16 words what it has taken you dozens of posts over several days to say. I don’t disagree with you, but it is a silly message to drone on about, since this is a sports blog where people go to talk sports, not admit that they know nothing about nothing.

    132. cannot believe that someone is maxing out Enes Kanter. That is almost as crazy as trading 3 draft picks for Bargnani. Not quite as crazy, but close.

      Sam Presti, man — still living off a few years of great drafting (even if only Ibaka was the only great pick he made -everyone else was basically consensus at the place he drafted them). Harden trade sucked. Sending out a 1st round pick for Dion Waiters. Sending out another PLUS Reggie Jackson for Kanter. now being forced into either maxing out Kanter — owner of the worst PF/C DRPM in the entire league, worse than Bargnani — or letting him go for nothing (couldn’t he have held onto Reggie then sign-traded him somewhere this offseason?).

      Ugh.

    133. Please, please stop. People are allowed to disagree with you. You can’t get angry and fight every person who disagrees with you.

      I appreciate your points of view, and your posts are usually well-thought, but you engage too much in the debate. Discussion on internet is very open ended, it is almost impossible for everyone to agree on, and people sometimes need to state their views, even when they are not open to discuss them, just in order to let the rest of the people know.

      This back and forth you have at times sometimes is not good; and leads to a repetitive cycle where other posters just stay in their position, but where everybody wants to have the last word. Maybe at those moments it is better to leave the discussion open, and talk again about it at some other point.

    134. It is precisely because we sit where we sit that we can say things like that. I would never dare to say anything similar if i worked for a FO, i would wait to have the complete truth.

      Why is it ok to insult someone you don’t know and will probably never hear your insults, but not do the same thing to someone’s face? Everything I have always been taught would say the exact opposite: if you’re going to say something be willing to say it directly to someone, and if you’re not willing to say something directly to someone then don’t say it at all.

      We have a mountain of evidence that suggests he committed to Dallas, changed his mind, contacted the Clippers early in the week, and during that entire time frame neither he or his agent contacted the Mavs to let them know he was having a change of heart so they could do something constructive. That evidence includes Doc’s own words.

      Yet you have yet to offer any of this evidence… How many times do I have to ask for evidence of what DeAndre Jordan (or Fegan on his behalf, maybe) said to the Mavs? If you have a mountain of it, why have you not shown me any of it?

      I would also say that whether someone behaved ethically is a different sort of question than whether someone physically killed someone. OJ either did or did not cause those deaths. Ethics is a fairly subjective thing.

      Anyway, I have wasted way too much time on something I really don’t care at all about.

    135. Portland signed Enes Kanter to a 4-year, $70 mil max contract, per Woj and the rest of basketball Twitter. Guy can’t play a lick of defense, but he moves well down low. Good move for a franchise essentially starting over post-Aldridge, or a waste of cap space? Or do you think they’re just screwing with the Thunder, forcing them to match and pay a big tax bill?

      Disclaimer: The following post is based on my current knowledge and understanding of basketball, as well as other matters. It does not necessarily represent metaphysical truth.

      I think it’s a smart move even though it’s way too much money for how good Kanter is as a basketball player.

      First off, I think it’s quite likely that OKC matches. The FA market is looking quite barren already, and letting him walk would leave them pretty thin in the frontcourt. Most critically, with Durant’s FA looming, they obviously have a pretty high incentive to convince him they’re willing to do what it takes to win. Even if bringing him back doesn’t actually help them win much, I still think they’ll feel the pressure to do it. If they match then obviously Portland was smart to use their cap space to put the squeeze on a rival, even if it’s only a small win in the long run.

      If they don’t match then the question is how big of a hole are you in. I’d argue not much. Portland has a gaping hole at C, and if Kanter plays big minutes with Lillard he will put up stats. He’ll give those stats right back on the other end, but with the ballooning cap next season I think they’ll be able to pretty easily find a home for a young C putting up 20 and 12 a night (not that far-fetched given he averaged 19 and 11 in OKC last year), even on that contract.

      Also there’s some chance that he can actually become worth that money. He’s still just 23. If he can just add B- defense to the way he played after going to OKC, he really will be a max level player.

    136. So you’re basically on a 35 post tirade in an effort to get everyone to post a disclaimer at the beginning of each post clarifying that their post is based on what they know? Is it not obvious to you that what we post is based on what we know?

      Listen, if you think it’s ok to go around judging and insulting other people based on next to no evidence… that’s on you. I am saying I disagree with that behavior. I find that behavior to be significantly different from saying “hey, I don’t know all the facts, but what I have been told is painting this kind of a picture.”

      Cuban is a ruthless motherfucker.

      Hey, he’s just a poor little guy who got deceived by the big, unethical boogeyman!!! And I saw him on his TV show, so I know he’s a good dude.

      Ted, your contribution lately boils down to “nobody knows what exactly happened [in the case of Jordan] or will happen [in the case of Williams] for 100% certain, so we can’t say anything certain about it.”

      I’m sorry that you think that’s what I’m saying, but it bares almost no resemblance to what I am trying to say. It completely ignores all nuance of what I’m saying. I am quite honestly offended when people pretend I am saying things I am not saying, and that seems to happen more often than not on this board.

      Maybe at those moments it is better to leave the discussion open, and talk again about it at some other point.

      Probably true.

    137. This has been an entertaining thread. I love it! I’m definitely the uneducated basketball guy that comes here to get my Knicks info so I really have nothing useful to add. Is that okay with everyone? :)

    138. Why is it ok to insult someone you don’t know and will probably never hear your insults, but not do the same thing to someone’s face? Everything I have always been taught would say the exact opposite: if you’re going to say something be willing to say it directly to someone, and if you’re not willing to say something directly to someone then don’t say it at all.

      No, i meant that it is OK because it is inconsequential. I could say it to DAJ’s face, and it would still be inconsequential, aside that some random guy is bothering him for a few minutes.

      However, if i work for a FO and spread this opinion, it is consequential, even if DAJ never realizes it was me who spread it.

    139. Disclaimer: I know nothing about nothing, including the arena in which I’ve worked for 20 years.

      I think it’s a smart move even though it’s way too much money for how good Kanter is as a basketball player.

      I wouldn’t at all want Kanter, but I agree anyway – the cap is going up SO much, it won’t seem such an onerous deal in a couple years. And he is 23, when it’s possible he may still improve. I doubt he’ll learn to play D, but even so, finding a reasonably priced defense-oriented big to play him with could make it worth the tradeoff even if he doesn’t.

      Hey, I heard a rumor that Robin Lopez may change his mind and resign with Portland. I mean, his word isn’t binding or anything, so why not? He’d be a great fit with Kanter.

    140. OKC Should really think about going back in time and using these luxury tax dollars to keep Harden instead. Otherwise I think they should let Portland have him. Definitely not an easy decision given their cap situation and Durant’s looming free agency, and Kanter put up some heady #s for them after the trade. But Kanter isn’t just a weak defender, he is one of the 2-3 worst big men defenders I’ve ever seen (Hi Eddy). My hunch is they would actually be better off giving those minutes to Adams and McGary, even this year, and that even with the cap going up Kanter’s deal is more likely to be a weight than an asset. But it’s a tough call, and it seems like they will match. At least they’re not trading for Dion Waiters again.

    141. Ted, you loom large on the board because of the volume and vigor of your posts. So it matters more when you seem to me to be arguing for the sake of arguing rather than pushing toward points you or others actually care about. Yesterday and today some of the assumptions you’ve taken issue with are:
      poster’s language reflecting their…
      – degree of certainty that a replacement terrible player would be less terrible than Bargnani
      – degree of certainty about what goes on in a locker room that might affect team morale
      – degree of certainty about what was verbally agreed to by Jordan
      You weren’t asserting that it was better to keep Bargnani, that what Jordan did was OK, etc. or, in general, addressing the original points in the posts. There’s a lot of smart posters on here, so I can kinda see how asking for a more academic standard of evidence or more cautious language might sometimes lead to interesting refinements in their arguments. Can you see, though, how lots of very long posts insisting on the importance of those things rather than addressing the gist of arguments might come across as arguing for its own sake? I like some of what you post a lot. Because you’re such a powerful presence on the board I wish you could be more consistently good natured and respectful and focus on people’s main points rather than standards of evidence and certainty that seem marginally relevant for a sports blog.

    142. Yet you have yet to offer any of this evidence… How many times do I have to ask for evidence of what DeAndre Jordan (or Fegan on his behalf, maybe) said to the Mavs? If you have a mountain of it, why have you not shown me any of it?

      Well, i dont think there is direct evidence, but there is some indirect evidence. Aside from the “sources” that reported it, after he had a meeting with the Mavs, he cancelled one with us that was supposed to happen becase some day earlier it was “reported” that we had a deal in place with RoLo, contingent to DAJ not signing with us. I think that is indirect evidence that DAJ made up his mind on signing with the Mavs. (EDIT: i might be making things up. Was he going to meet with us?)

      Also, the Mavericks didnt pursue any C after that, not even as a fallback plan. I think that is indirect evidence that the Mavs thought Jordan was signing with them.

      It is not a big amount, and there might be a lot of miscommunication there, but it is something.

    143. But Kanter isn’t just a weak defender, he is one of the 2-3 worst big men defenders I’ve ever seen

      Do you have even a shred of evidence you can use to support that observation? Or are you making the point that the sample size of the defenders you’ve “seen” is very small?

    144. “Chandler Parsons Feels Disrespected” is a headline I never thought I’d see.

    145. I’m sorry that you think that’s what I’m saying, but it bares almost no resemblance to what I am trying to say. It completely ignores all nuance of what I’m saying. I am quite honestly offended

      Somehow I knew you’d argue it.

    146. Can you see, though, how lots of very long posts insisting on the importance of those things rather than addressing the gist of arguments might come across as arguing for its own sake?

      Not really. I see why it’s taken that way, but I think taking it that way is incorrect.

      I absolutely think I’m going to the heart of the issue. “Bargnani vs. open roster spot” might be a marginal issue, but the very heart of the issue is whether Bargnani is better than replacement level (and I think it also feeds into a more general discussion about the value of a bad vet vs. open roster spot). Several posters on here (including at least one of the site writers) were taking for granted that an open roster spot was better than guys like DW and AB… so I absolutely thought it was worth discussing. All day? No. But worth discussing. It lasted all day because only one or two commenters could conceptualize and answer the question.

      In terms of locker room chemistry and Jordan, I also don’t see how I wasn’t addressing the heart of the issue. Whether Bargnani is good or bad for chemistry is the heart of whether he’s good or bad for chemistry. Whether or not Jordan behaved unethically is the heart of whether he behaved unethically.

      I am specifically arguing that people should not take absolute stands on issues that they don’t have a good grasp on. I think that’s worth arguing, and I think that a lot of people on here might really gain from learning that lesson.

      Because you’re such a powerful presence on the board I wish you could be more consistently good natured and respectful and focus on people’s main points rather than standards of evidence and certainty that seem marginally relevant for a sports blog.

      I don’t think I’m doing that. I think people have created this inaccurate meme that I’m doing that. What I think I’m doing is explained in brief above.

    147. This blog has all of a sudden gotten painfully tedious and unreadable. Please somebody fart or something.

    148. Has anyone anywhere questioned that DAJ verbally committed to the Mavs?

      Look Ted, as I said, I respect and appreciate your contributions here and always have. That said, I would second Unreason’s comment above.

      Moving on from the meta blogging, Chandler Parsons’ q score is through the roof this offseason. He is the biggest winner of the offseason from what I can see. Him and whoever gets an invite to his parties….

    149. I think that’s worth arguing, and I think that a lot of people on here might really gain from learning that lesson.

      Your personal quest for analytic honesty does add something to this board, but I feel it’s probably a net negative, as otherwise smart and entertaining contributors are being swayed to simply not post anything at all. That hurts the blog.

    150. Somehow I knew you’d argue it.

      You created a ridiculous (and purposefully offensive) caricature of what I’m saying and you knew I’d disagree? No shit.

      Also, the Mavericks didnt pursue any C after that, not even as a fallback plan. I think that is indirect evidence that the Mavs thought Jordan was signing with them.

      This evidence isn’t really evidence that Jordan committed to and deceived the Mavs, though… It’s evidence that the Mavs thought he committed. I’m not saying he didn’t commit (I have no idea), I’m just wondering why people are pretending they know he did commit when they don’t.

      Disclaimer: I know nothing about nothing, including the arena in which I’ve worked for 20 years.

      What arena do you work in? You said that you weren’t a lawyer, but that you’ve won a couple of lawsuits… It’s very hard to tell what you’re talking about.

      No, i meant that it is OK because it is inconsequential. I could say it to DAJ’s face, and it would still be inconsequential, aside that some random guy is bothering him for a few minutes.

      It is inconsequential, but I still think it’s odd for people to use questionable ethics while calling someone else unethical.

    151. Your personal quest for analytic honesty does add something to this board, but I feel it’s probably a net negative, as otherwise smart and entertaining contributors are being swayed to simply not post anything at all. That hurts the blog.

      Again, I think this “quest” is a ridiculous meme that some of you have made up because I dared question you for lambasting some of your least favorite players.

      Here’s a CRAZY idea… when someone asks you how you know something, just tell them how you know it. There are like one or two of you actually responding to my comments in a civil manner. The rest of you are just being huge jag-offs and have been from the moment I responded to your comments.

    152. It’s times like these (or during some of THCJ’s more combative periods) when the wisdom of Raylan Givens comes to mind: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LG4hOjJ9tEs

      Disclaimer: I cannot prove what I am about to say.

      I shit you not, less than ten minutes ago I looked up that exact clip to post here, and then decided against it.

    153. Well, anyway.

      With the thinness of next year’s FA group, and no draft pick (BAAAAARRRRRGGGGS!), it seems like the only real road to becoming decent (aside from the improvement of the young ‘uns) is through trades. Anyone see a move that makes sense, given how this offseason has gone for some teams?

      EDIT: aside from trading Melo for an unprotected first, that is?

    154. And I thought Seinfeld was the ultimate show about nothing and now we have days of 100+ post threads about nothing.

    155. It is inconsequential, but I still think it’s odd for people to use questionable ethics while calling someone else unethical.

      I have no basketball abilities whatsoever and i dont mind dissing Bargs in this blog, 8-)

    156. Anyway, I have wasted way too much time on something I really don’t care at all about.

      !

    157. “Given the degree to which people (you more than anyone) are misrepresenting my comments and that it’s all the regulars joking, I think it’s more a combination of groupthink from regulars and a failure to understand what I was actually saying.”

      Ted, who are the “regulars?” Owen, Z, and Mike K have hardly posted here for the past several years. What is actually happening is that regulars and non-regulars alike, from the optimists to the cynics, have pointed out to you that you have a habit of being unnecessarily argumentative.

    158. Does anyone else remember the Monty Python skit where the guy goes into the “argument clinic” and says, “I’m here for an argument” and the guy behind the desk says, “No you’re not, you’re here for an argument” and the “debate” goes downhill from there? Today reminds me of that skit.

    159. Ted,

      I thoroughly enjoy reading your posts. In fact, one of the reason I came back to reading this site is because of the statistics and insights you provide (as do many others here).

      The fact remains that this is a forum, a place of discussion, which will contain many opinions with fewer facts than opinions. You’re challenging opinions. If someone does not feel like substantiating his/her opinion, you let it go. You like basing your opinions off many facts. In fact, I dare say it feels like you are constructing legal cases and arguments at times. Some have already stated that they lack the time to properly address your questions. If they are addressing you, I can understand you defending yourself. Often, it feels more like you’re on the hunt. Not everything needs to be examined from a multitude of angles.

      Edit: I would like to add that I had forgotten about this place and have been reading ESPN comments. God did I miss you guys.

    160. Off topic, but Starbucks needs to have a process for people like me who just drink coffee. Free me from the tyranny of frappucino drinkers

    161. With the thinness of next year’s FA group, and no draft pick (BAAAAARRRRRGGGGS!), it seems like the only real road to becoming decent (aside from the improvement of the young ‘uns) is through trades. Anyone see a move that makes sense, given how this offseason has gone for some teams?

      I think we have to start out the season with this roster and see what happens. If Calderon is suddenly healthy and shooting well, and a contender has a need of his skills, you ship him out. If the team is terrible and Melo decides he wants to go, you explore options. Maybe Chicago still wants him, and might even be willing to give up Mirotic given the logjam in their frontcourt. Or maybe Melo starts playing as well as we know he can, the complementary pieces actually complement him, and we improve enough that a year from now we can attract a few more interesting free agents to come here. Not Durant, surely, but some people from the second tier.

      In reality, a Melo trade seems the most likely course for the team, but we have to first get a look at this new team Phil has assembled before we can make any more moves.

    162. Has anyone anywhere questioned that DAJ verbally committed to the Mavs?

      Yes.

      But about a million media outlets said he committed, Doc said he committed, Parsons just said he committed, that’s the way these things are always done, and had he not committed his connections would have said so all week because it was in their best interests to do so.

      So why am I sifting through posts questioning it?

      Honestly, it’s no big deal. But it gets tiresome reading through endless posts that are being contrarian for the sake of being contrarian. It wreaks of someone unwilling to ever move on and let go even when something is obvious.

      There may be a legitimate debate about recourse. I wouldn’t know because I am not a lawyer, but I was enjoying reading that discussion.

      There’s a legitimate on whether what he and his agent did was unethical or just extremely unprofessional.

      I have my view on that, but I understand not everyone will agree.

      There’s more than just basketball involved here. Jordan didn’t just change his mind after making a commitment. I would have problems with that on it’s own, but it’s at least understandable. He contacted the Clippers and was talking with them early in the week while the clock was ticking on free agency and players were coming off the board. By not contacting the Mav’s as soon as it went from cold feet (typical of anyone changing jobs) to seriously considering backing out, he did extreme damage to the Mav’s ability to sign other free agents. That has economic implications. The Mavs are probably not going to make the playoffs this year, but they might have had they not tied up all that money in Jordan for an extra few days. There are other attendance and sales issues involved.

      I can give a young guy a pass for getting cold feet or being indecisive with such a big decision to make. I can’t give an agent and a player a pass for how they dealt with the rest of it. They still haven’t contacted the Mavs. It’s preposterous behavior.

    163. Took me like 6 minutes to get a fucking iced coffee because off all these mixed/blended drink people.

    164. Basically, Jordan should have talked to Cuban the moment he had any second thoughts – even before he was seriously considering backing out. He was unsure and he needed to give Mavs the same option of being unsure.

      You can argue that the Mavs would have moved the earth to get him to sign or that, realistically, they would have waited until the last hour to hear his decision. But that still doesn’t change the fact that the Mavs could have backed off of him and pursued other avenues to fill their roster.

      No owner confirms and gets fined $25k unless he is certain he hears “I’m signing with you.” The fact that so many parties, including sources, confirmed it should be good enough for the rest of us.

    165. Off topic, but Starbucks needs to have a process for people like me who just drink coffee. Free me from the tyranny of frappucino drinkers

      I ordered their new cold-brew out of necessity today — living in inner SE Portland means, “Why the fuck are you drinking Starbucks?” — and I got served my drink faster than I could read a Ted Nelson post. God help you if you are stuck behind a Triple Mocha Frap Soy Lattisimo drinker. You might actually have the time to respond to one of his posts.

    166. Basically, Jordan should have talked to Cuban the moment he had any second thoughts – even before he was seriously considering backing out. He was unsure and he needed to give Mavs the same option of being unsure.

      I agree with everything you’ve said, and this is not specifically addressed to you, but maybe we should stop offering up hot takes on the ethics of labor contracts and realize that this creates an awesome feud between two high-level franchises.

    167. Ted,

      Just scrolling up with a pen & paper (ok crayon – that’s what the kids left on the table) I see there a good amount of posts addressing your behavior here directly: 147, 155, 163, 164,166, 174, 176. And honestly I’m stopping there because I’m starving, hadn’t had dinner yet, need to spend time with my kids, etc.

      I second Owen and others who say they enjoy your objectivity. But you’re disrupting the discussion here in a major way. So you can either read those (and the others I didn’t note) and take some time to adjust how you interact here, or keep going down the path to being banned.

    168. Starbucks large is pretty large. On a long walk I’d rather have more decent coffee than less better coffee.

      I’d make fun of this Enes Kanter “dilemma” OKC is facing if I couldn’t envision Isiah Thomas bringing him to the Knicks for 2 firsts next year

    169. i don’t see any trades being done in the near future… the guy that sticks out like a sore thumb is melo of course… if he is performing and we’re still losing and with the arms race happening out west… i could see a godfather offer from just about anyone tho…

    170. And as has been said here before, next year’s FA class is so thin at the top, and so many teams are going to have cap space, that some team that strikes out on Durant might see Melo as the best available alternative.

    171. lance Thomas signs for 1.6. Solid

      Is that the minimum for him, or does that eat into that $3 million of found cap money? I’m fine with the guy returning for the former, for reasons stated above, much less so if it’s the latter.

    172. @BobbyMarks42 38s38 seconds ago

      Under the assumption that NYK used some of their cap space on Lance Thomas. Non-bird max was $1.2m. Looks like he signed for $1.6m.

      Yeah, less happy with this. It probably doesn’t matter that much in the end, and I do like having some continuity for the end of the bench guys, but Thomas and Amundson were people I only wanted back at the minimum, and thus not costing us the chance to sign better players.

    173. Amazon how many of the guys who got paid this offseason weren’t lottery picks. These are just the non-lotto guys getting $44m+:

      Matthews: $70m undrafted
      Jordan: $88m 2nd round
      Draymond: $82m 2nd round
      Gasol: $113m 2nd round
      Middleton: $70m 2nd round
      Asik: $60m 2nd round
      Milsap: $58m 2nd round
      Dragic: $86m 2nd round
      D Green: $45m 2nd round
      M Ellis: $44m 2nd round
      Butler: $95m Last pick in the 1st
      Tobias H: $64m 19th pick
      R Jackson $80m 24th pick
      Carroll: $60m 27th pick
      Kawhi: $95m just missed lottery
      RoLo: $54m just missed

      I see you Jerian and Guillermo!

    174. According to CBAFAQ.com (Larry Coon), it seems the minimums are set amounts, whereas the max is a % of cap space. He has $1,015,421 as the minimum for 2015-2016. So Thomas’ contract would count toward the cap. I could be wrong.

    175. did the knicks have his bird rights or was that revoked because they cut him and then signed him back?

    176. Its a 1-year deal. Even if it counts against the cap, it doesn’t get in the way of future plans. We can still cut him and fill a roster spot with a minimum player, right?

    177. I bet they didn’t renounce him because they didn’t need to to get enough cap space to sign the other guys. A lot of the time you can plan to renounce a player and then not actually have to do it so it never actually happens. As for the move, I don’t mind it. They had cap space that they were unlikely going to use on other players, so if they want to give a hard-working guy like Thomas a small raise on a one year contract, it’s fine by me. It doesn’t really have much of an effect on their cap space now or in the future. Spending $13 million on Afflalo and Williams, that’s something. Spending less than $2 million on Thomas specifically after having already spent the $13 million on Afflalo and Williams? That’s nothing.

    178. With the thinness of next year’s FA group, and no draft pick (BAAAAARRRRRGGGGS!), it seems like the only real road to becoming decent (aside from the improvement of the young ‘uns) is through trades. Anyone see a move that makes sense, given how this offseason has gone for some teams?

      The obvious trade commodity is Calderon so I agree with @alsep73 about crossing our fingers about him doing well enough to be a trade deadline commodity. Crazy as it sounds, I’m hoping that Melo actually gets a shot at playing for a Knick team that goes deep into the playoffs. For whatever reason, Anthony decided to bring his talents to Broadway and for that alone I wish him well so I wouldn’t be so quick to trade him. If, however, he becomes a grumpy malcontent, then sure, we trade him away but we better get something very substantial in return. He could put a team that’s in contention over the top.

    179. I’d absolutely love for Melo to be a part of a good Knick team, as that means we’d have a good Knick team sooner than later. :)

    180. I just make my own coffee these days. So much easier and cheaper.

      I usually have cold brew in the fridge for fast morning caffeine and a french press for everyday hot-coffee use, but some days I need to stop and pick something up while I’m working. Starbucks doesn’t raise any flags when I put it on the company card.

      Also fuck Andrea Bargnani.

    181. Is Lance Thomas good at anything? I hardly watched the stinking shitpile that was called the New York Knicks last year, so all I really know about Lance Thomas is his stat line, which looks like pure garbage.

    182. No, not really. He hustles, that’s about it. If you think that there was actually a chance of the Knicks going bargain-hunting for other free agents, then it’s totally fair to be pissed about Thomas getting a roster spot. But I think they were already set on bringing back a bunch of the end-of-the-bench guys, so it was only a matter of how much they cost, and here, Thomas’ small raise isn’t taking money out that they were going to spend elsewhere.

    183. I’m fortunate that we have coffee service at work. It’s a perk I take for granted but if I lost it I would be very upset. Starbucks just doesn’t do it for me.

      Thomas is a good resigning.

      I think we could have a decent team. We have a star plus a bunch of average players and a bunch of kids with potential. If we can find one or two players that perform above average, we might display enough talent to draw really good free agents.

    184. Is Lance Thomas good at anything?

      Every now and then he knocked down a corner 3. More importantly, the insertion of him, Amundson and Galloway into the rotation signaled the point in the season when the Knicks actually seemed to be trying. They rarely won because they lacked talent, but the team needed a culture change in addition to a huge talent infusion. The draft and our other FA signings seem to have addressed the latter concern. While I wish we had only signed Thomas to the minimum, it’s good to have guys on the end of the bench who hustle and act like they give a s–t, you know?

    185. I don’t really understand resigning Thomas. He is not a project and is not really good enough to be in the rotation. It’s no big deal but wouldn’t John Jenkins or GiGi Datome or Dorell Wright or Wayne Ellington for all our remaining cap space be better than Lance Thomas for half of it.

      Am I missing something with him? He has awful defensive stats is he a good defender?

    186. i really do not like thomas although most of his value is going to be felt in practice which i guess has some value… on the court he is a disaster… there are better options available….

    187. Are you kidding me, Mike? Should I point to all the incredibly disrespectful comments others are making about me? What am I doing that is cause for being banned? Not “how are people responding to my comments…” but “what about the contents of my comments would possibly lead to being banned?” What about the contents of my comments is disrupting the conversation?

      I am disrupting the conversation in large part because a bunch of you (you as much as or more than anyone) are making completely un-basketball related, completely off-topic comments that have no purpose whatsoever except to belittle me to each others amusement.

      If this is how you run your site these days, I don’t know what to say. Asking someone for evidence to support their extreme comments calling players terrible and people unethical will get you banned, but disrespecting another commenter is encouraged?

      You should be ashamed. I am honestly stunned.

    188. I think trades are going might happen in the next few days, but right now every team was concentrating on resolving free agents. Once some of them find they didn’t get what they need, then they will look to trade. From the Knick’s point of view, they probably don’t want to trade Calderon until they see Grant and Galloway play in summer league at least. The Knicks aren’t stacked, but they do have someone at every position now. I’m pretty confident they can fill in the holes with reasonable bodies (for example Shved) if they want too, given their ability to sign a couple more people over the minimum. So they really don’t have to do a trade unless something good pops up.

    189. I don’t want anyone banned, but I strongly suggest we forget the arguments of today for a while and think about other stuff.

    190. If this is how you run your site these days, I don’t know what to say. Asking someone for evidence to support their extreme comments calling players terrible and people unethical will get you banned, but disrespecting another commenter is encouraged?

      Extreme? You think calling Derrick Williams a waste of a roster slot for $5M a year is extreme? Ted. Oh, Ted. You need a break from the internet.

    191. “If one person is an asshole, maybe they’re an asshole. If everyone is an asshole, maybe you’re an asshole.”

    192. Dr. Nelson’s Independent Research Verifier
      July 9, 2015 at 9:24 pm
      If this is how you run your site these days, I don’t know what to say. Asking someone for evidence to support their extreme comments calling players terrible and people unethical will get you banned, but disrespecting another commenter is encouraged?

      Extreme? You think calling Derrick Williams a waste of a roster slot for $8M a year is extreme? Ted. Oh, Ted. You need a break from the internet.

      How is this person not already banned? This is not disrupting the conversation?

      Someone made an entire account for no reason other than to mock me, someone else called me an asshole… and I am the problem?

    193. I don’t really understand resigning Thomas. He is not a project and is not really good enough to be in the rotation. It’s no big deal but wouldn’t John Jenkins or GiGi Datome or Dorell Wright or Wayne Ellington for all our remaining cap space be better than Lance Thomas for half of it.

      Am I missing something with him? He has awful defensive stats is he a good defender?

      If it costs someone like the guys you mention a roster spot, then yes, it definitely is a foolish signing. But I don’t think they were looking at any of those guys. You could easily argue that that, in and of itself, is foolish, and I wouldn’t argue the point, but I think that that was the situation they were in. I think that they were just planning on re-signing their current end of the bench guys. I think their plan was always to bring Thomas back, but since some other teams (apparently the Spurs even!) showed interest, they gave him a slight bump. So if you accept that (that they were just planning to fill out the roster with their current end-of-the-bench guys), then it is not a great signing by any means, but it’s not an awful one, either. It is just “meh.”

    194. Ted I don’t think Mike wants to ban you, he just wants you to drop this discussion. You’re not getting it so he brought out the B word to get your attention.

    195. From what Ive read the Knicks still have their full 2.8m exception. Lance and someone like Amundson I suppose will take up the remaining cap space which was roughly 3m I believe. I do hope they sign another wing player, I assume Shved will be that guy.

    196. Ian Begley just tweeted that “the Knicks remain in touch with representatives for free agents Alexey Shved, Cole Aldrich and Lou Amundson, league sources say.” So there you go, Cole might even return!!

    197. Who is our backup SF? Our roster already forces Melo to play every minute at the 3 (which sucks) since he is the only SF on the roster that isn’t Early or Thomas both of whom have shown nothing to indicate they should be in an NBA rotation and Williams doesn’t have the shooting or passing to play the wing.
      Who is our backup center? O’Quinn should start at PF which means we need another big body to play center.
      Does Williams force Porzingis to the bench? He is a PF (Porzingis’s natural position in my opinion) and we didn’t pay him $5 million a year to sit at the end of the bench (though that might not be so bad).

      That 3 million in cap room should be able to get one of the wings I listed above (Jenkins, Datome, Wright, Ellington) or maybe Jordan Hill, he seems to be left behind now that teams are running out of money and is a good backup center. Or use the room exemption and cap room and sign both.

      We can’t simply sign end of the bench guys we don’t have a rotation.

      Shved is a solid project but we have three combo guards on the roster already, Aldrich would be okay but we don’t seem to have much interest, Amundson is barely passable but we don’t need to settle for barely passable yet.

    198. Yeah, that sounds about right, Al. I think they’re done looking for outside help (except perhaps the room) and otherwise they just want to bring back the end of the bench. It’s good to know that they want Cole back, though!

    199. I don’t know why you wouldn’t want to take a look at some guys other than the ones who helped you stink it up to a 17-win season, but meh. Whatever. Bring on the retreads.

    200. @220,
      Most these guys weren’t even here for most the season. Hardly their fault for the season. There’s also a difference playing at the end of the bench and starting.

      @218,
      Both Derrick Williams and Arron Afflalo can play the SF position. Amundson or Cole can play center if they come back, otherwise I’m sure we can find another big to play for us. No reason to think O’Quinn can’t play a few minutes at center to spell Lopez. I doubt they intend for him to start anyway.

      Calderon/Galloway
      Afflalo/Galloway
      Melo/Afflalo/Williams
      Williams/O’Quinn
      Robin Lopez/O’Quinn

      That’s 7 guys. We probably need 1 or 2 more but only for spot minutes. How big of a rotation do you think we need?

    201. Glad to see Lance Thomas back, though a bit surprised that he get more than the minimum. No problem. Good for him.

      I still hope that a legit backup C gets signed.

      Nice to hear that Porzingis is good to go for Saturday!

    202. Really hope Thanasis and Ledo get a chance also. I’m all for getting veterans to bring some professionalism to the locker room but prob 2 of those on a 15 man roster is enough. Lance is one. Make Amundson the other and call it a day on that. Give Thanasis and Ledo a shot.

      Re: backup C – O’Quinn can do that. And if they bring back Amundson, he can do that too.
      Re: SF – we’ve got tons of wings. Thanasis, Early, even Ledo can play SF.

    203. Ted, about 5-10 people in this thread have mentioned that your behavior is out of line here. Don’t take my word for it, take theirs.

    204. Z-man,
      Yeah. We forget that Grant’s a middle-of-the-first-round pick. He’s someone I have hope for, if his college coach’s assessment is on the money.

    205. Lance Thomas sucks. Seems like a good dude, plays hard, but he’s bad at doing good basketball things

    206. I skip the boards for one day and come back to more drama than the rest of TNT’s schedule. Guys, it’s only a game. A game our team’s not too good at. A game they’re trying to get better at. A game they’re trying to play a different way. If it works, great. If not, they try something else. It’s completely understandable to be passionate about this team we cheer for/make fun of. It’s also understandable that we are frustrated with the fat that this team we all love hasn’t been a sustainable contender in roughly twenty years, and the best in the sport in over forty. I get it.

      But seriously, guys. Lighten up. Please. I come here to escape drama, to have a laugh or two while trying to learn something about a team I love. I’m pretty sure I’m not the only one who fits that mold here. If it gets to be too much, then log off and take a breather. We’ll still be here.

      And to whoever created that joke account: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MNZTifzpwkU

    207. And to leave something Knicksy here: So we brought back Lance Thomas. 1 yr. 1.6 mil. Just slightly over the minimum. Meh, whatever. He ain’t ever seein’ the floor.

    208. Brian, you’re right! Jeeze, how did we miss! Here’s a revised rotation but it’s got all 11 distinct players. I’ve got Zinger starting.

      Calderon/Grant
      Afflalo/Galloway
      Melo/Williams/Early
      Porzingis/Thomas
      Robin Lopez/O’Quinn

    209. Again, Mike, what behavior is out of line? To repeat what I already said… not “people are saying thing about you” but “you said X and that is not appropriate.”

      I honestly cannot believe that you, of all people, are lecturing on appropriate behavior in a thread where you egged on a meme with no purpose other than to belittle one of your commenters.

      I still haven’t seen any response on why I will be banned for asking people to defend their bball related views, but it is ok to make totally un-basketball related comments with no purpose but to insult me or to create an entire account that is an insult to me.

    210. I really wasn’t looking for either Thomas or Amundson to come back. Though they each hustle and seem like decent guys, they have no discernible upside. We got their best, and their best isn’t worthy of minutes.

      Whereas Cole and Shved ARE worthy of minutes, even without getting in shape or learning to play defense, respectively. They were each a net positive.

      And more to the point, any salary past vet minimum cuts into cap space, and may make it harder to get a Jenkins, Datome, Wright, or even Jordan Hill, all of whom are either better players or have more upside or both. (Hard to imagine that Jordan Hill, though, won’t end up with a better than we could have given him even before signing Thomas.)

      Oh well. I do believe good team chemistry matters. I just think that the best recipe for good chemistry is winning. And better players help with that whole “winning” thing.

    211. Ted, communicating with other people is difficult. Even when you’re talking face to face with someone you’ve been close to for years its not always easy to clearly express yourself. Writing for an audience of people you’ve never even met-even on a subject as trivial as the knicks-is fraught with difficulty. You keep complaining that people are misrepresenting your arguments. I don’t doubt that’s true, but I think there’s a good chance you’re not expressing yourself clearly.

      In terms of insulting you-i think people are, for the most part, just teasing you. Again, I may be wrong. I don’t know any of these people. Jowles changed his name. He does that all the time. You should be flattered he did it for you. He didn’t create an entire account to insult you (I think).

      Otherwise, its a Knicks site. Talking about who posts what is fucking tedious. I hope your critics knock it off, but seriously, if you like this website, just keep it Knicks for a week and see how it goes. Anyone insults you and I’ll serve them bleach myself

    212. And more to the point, any salary past vet minimum cuts into cap space, and may make it harder to get a Jenkins, Datome, Wright, or even Jordan Hill, all of whom are either better players or have more upside or both. (Hard to imagine that Jordan Hill, though, won’t end up with a better than we could have given him even before signing Thomas.)

      I would agree, but again, it doesn’t sound like the Knicks are in on any of those guys. They pretty much have already determined their roster, save perhaps one guy they’ll look to get with the room exception. So while yes, I would much prefer they take a flier on a Datome or a Jenkins over a Thomas, they seem to think otherwise. And if they’re not going to look at those guys, then spending a little extra on Thomas isn’t going to make a whole lot of difference either way.

    213. Rama, those guys seem to have big holes in each of their respective games Their upside is very minimal. Sounds like another conversation I read somewhere. :). It seemed to me in the few games I watched in the second half of the season that Thomas and Admunson do everything at least OK. They are pros and I’m assuming have the IQ Phil and Fish desire. System matters now, especially at the end of the bench.

    214. I don’t think we should discount the difference Melo will make for Amundson and Thomas. Melo will carry much more of the offensive load than anyone that either Amundson or Thomas played with last year (for better or worse). As such, I think it’ll be much easier to hide players like Amundson and Thomas who can contribute on the defensive end, (which shouldn’t be misconstrued as me saying that I’d rather have those players).

      Also, as much of a fuss as we’ve made about D. Williams and Afflalo signings. Even if they both regress it’s difficult to see them being worse scorers than anyone we had on the team last season, so that’s at least something. Jason “Bad Jumper” Smith and Tim “Who Needs Towns?” Hardaway were 2 of our top 3 in minutes last year. I’ll just be glad if we’re watchable this season.

    215. Yeah, I’m already sure I’ll watch more games than I did last year… but that is a low bar.

      In the games I did see, Thomas did nothing at all to stand out as a positive. Amundson was a force on defense, but his offense was so, well, offensive, that he seemed a net negative, too. I mean, the fact that they both try hard and seem like decent dudes actually does mean a lot to me as a fan – how hard was it to root for Timmy, Jason Smith, Bargnani, Junior…? Actually, even typing that list makes me slightly ill. Those were our New York Knicks, people. Bleah.

      So yeah, Thomas at $1.6mil, whatever. But unless Phil has a trade up his sleeve, it’s been a pretty meh offseason. No big blunders, which is a step forward, but nothing amazing either.

      I do like the draft a lot. I guess that’s where my hope for the future lies. If the Zinger ends up being the second best player after KAT (who seems a sure thing), I wouldn’t be surprised. (I also wouldn’t be surprised if he retires at age 24 after multiple surgeries and only a season and a half of actual time on the court.)

    216. Honestly, I’m not even sure that I watched Thomas play at all. I just assume he’s a really good defender cuz, well he sucks at everything else as far as I can tell.

    217. Remember once Thomas and Amundson starting playing Fisher on numerous occasions praised their professionalism which Im sure was a direct shot at the departed guys like JR and even Shump. To fill out the last few roster spots Im sure they are looking for guys who are willing to practice hard every day even if it means seeing no playing time during the games. They have plenty of young guys who will be getting playing time so for them they probably prefer guys at the end of the bench who wont complain and will be professionals while the younger guys play and go thru their growing pains.

    218. So yeah, Thomas at $1.6mil, whatever. But unless Phil has a trade up his sleeve, it’s been a pretty meh offseason. No big blunders, which is a step forward, but nothing amazing either.

      Yep, pretty much. The team definitely will be improved next season, but when you win 17 games, “improving the team” is exceptionally easy to do. That said, I look forward to actually seeing them win some games next season – losing doesn’t help their draft position, so it makes winning fun again, at least!

    219. Remember once Thomas and Amundson starting playing Fisher on numerous occasions praised their professionalism which Im sure was a direct shot at the departed guys like JR and even Shump. To fill out the last few roster spots Im sure they are looking for guys who are willing to practice hard every day even if it means seeing no playing time during the games. They have plenty of young guys who will be getting playing time so for them they probably prefer guys at the end of the bench who wont complain and will be professionals while the younger guys play and go thru their growing pains.

      While true, Al, it does seem a bit weird that you can’t find someone like that for the vet minimum. To wit, if Thomas really was getting wooed by other teams (and I believe he was, as why else would they give him the raise?), why not just let him go and sign someone who will sign for the vet minimum? Like I said, since I don’t think this is getting in the way of them signing anyone else interesting, I don’t mind it, but it definitely is a bit of an odd signing.

    220. Again, Mike, what behavior is out of line?

      On Monday’s thread you called Alecto an ass-hole and thenoblefacehum a prick. Neither attacked you. One was being playfully snarky, and the other was, honestly, just trying to offer you the statistical evidence that you were demanding but not accepting.

      But the bigger issue, I think, is that while you believe you’re being misunderstood, you’re also not understanding the repeated criticism that your tone stinks and is what is causing people to turn off to what you are saying altogether.

      This site is a place where people can go to have conversations. When a person comes here and disrupts the flow of conversation, intentional or not, I think it is Mike’s job as moderator to try to curb it. It’s been a long, hard season, on top of a long, hard 15 years. It’s not like we’re a Laker blog, being negative about a rebuild in the wake of a zillion championships. We’re negative for a pretty good reason: we’re Knick fans in the Dolan Era. (While you were away we spent, literally, hundreds of threads discussing the relative value of Andrea Bargnani, and we came to a group consensus that was embraced by everyone, optimists and pessimists alike: Bargnani sucks. We don’t really need to re-prove that the world is round every morning, do we?)

    221. Yeah, I mean, the Knicks weaknesses are basically everything, so almost anybody they sign would be able to help out, except somebody who is not good at anything, which is what Lance Thomas is. I get that Phil wants continuity and all that, but Lance Thomas just seems like a really unimaginative use of a roster spot. We already had two wings on the roster that can’t throw the ball into the ocean, Cleanthony Early and Thanasis Antetowhatever, and now I guess we have three.

    222. Remember once Thomas and Amundson starting playing Fisher on numerous occasions praised their professionalism which Im sure was a direct shot at the departed guys like JR and even Shump. To fill out the last few roster spots Im sure they are looking for guys who are willing to practice hard every day even if it means seeing no playing time during the games. They have plenty of young guys who will be getting playing time so for them they probably prefer guys at the end of the bench who wont complain and will be professionals while the younger guys play and go thru their growing pains.

      Yes, i guess it is the “culture” thing. Working hard gets rewarded. That’s why i think keeping Bargnani at the end of the bench might be bad, because he used to be in the spotlight (and didnt make much effort even then).

      While true, Al, it does seem a bit weird that you can’t find someone like that for the vet minimum. To wit, if Thomas really was getting wooed by other teams (and I believe he was, as why else would they give him the raise?), why not just let him go and sign someone who will sign for the vet minimum? Like I said, since I don’t think this is getting in the way of them signing anyone else interesting, I don’t mind it, but it definitely is a bit of an odd signing.

      My guess is that they already decided to bring back everybody for the minimum, and with the salary cap raise increase of 2 million, the knicks decided to share a bit of it. It is a one year deal anyway and if they wouldnt have a roster spot if they bring back the rest of the players: Calderon, Afflalo, Melo, D-Will, RoLo, Grant, Galloway, Cle, Thanasis, Porzingis, Thomas, Amundson, Oquinn, Aldrich. That’s 14 roster spots, and we would have the room exception for the 15th (maybe shved)

    223. About 97% of the cap is already spent.

      Who are these obvious, can’t miss prospects that they are missing on? That can be had for about 2M?

      It’s not a fantasy baseball team where you’re trying to squeeze every ounce of every last stat.

      Having hard working guys that you feel embody what your trying to do, and at the end of the bench, for 1M>
      Trying your hand at more retreads that the whole league is passing on, spending more man hours, when basically your entire team is new, you’re developing two rookies, while also trying to put a respectable product on the floor.

    224. No one was talking about “obvious, can’t miss prospects.” What people did say was that it might make more sense to try out new players who have not proven that they are not good players yet rather than re-sign a guy who has been given a few chances and has shown nothing in his last few seasons in the NBA to suggest that he might be a good NBA player (we talk about how low the WS/48s were for some guys last year like Bargs or THJ, but Thomas was literally into the negatives as a Knick, something he has done on more than one occasion during his career), and not only re-sign him, but give him a raise, to boot!

      Gerald Green, who has had actual good seasons in the NBA, just signed for the vet minimum. So to act like there isn’t anyone available out there better than Thomas is silly. That said, since the Knicks seem to be committed to bringing back all of their bench guys, it really doesn’t make a huge difference between paying Thomas the vet minimum or the raised salary, as the problem is choosing to re-commit to him, not the money itself (as the available cap space doesn’t matter a whole lot when your roster is full).

    225. Let’s not forget that Phil and Fish are dedicated to “system” basketball. Lance is someone who played in the system last year, and was coached by Coach K.

      He had a terrible year last year by any measure, but in 2012-13 he had a .565 TS% on a 10.5 % usage, was a decent rebounder for a smallish wing, and a WS 48 of .089. He had a 121-112 ORtg to DRtg. He then only played 42 total minutes in 2013-14.

      What changed in 2014-15 is that his MPG more than doubled and his usage% went up form 10 to 17. That’s a pretty dramatic change in role, and he couldn’t handle it. He needs to be an extremely low usage player to be effective, and my guess is that he is willing to be that.

      I also think that his character is important. Whoever fills his slot is not going to play much, if at all, and needs to be OK with that. I think that signing a guy who is used to having steady minutes (say, Jordan Hill) for your 13th man is risking having a malcontent in the locker room.

      I don’t really have feeling one way or the other, other than I like what I’m seeing overall (and am way more enthusiastic about our FA haul than most) and the least of my concerns is how Phil and Fish spends the last of the cap $.

      PS Brian, don’t we need to be at a certain $ of the salary cap in order to qualify for the $2.8 million exception? Isn’t being $3 million under too much?

    226. Here’s the table that P&T has of the Knicks’ salary:
      Knicks Salary

      Summary:
      We have 15 total roster spots. With Thomas we’re at 13 players and have another $1.6 million before we get the room exception. So one player gets $1.6 another gets the room. So the difference between $1.6 and the minimum is negligible. I’m thinking Thanasis and Shved get the other two spots. Then if someone else impresses we can drop Ledo.

    227. One of the functions of bench players is to create full teams to have 5 on 5’s in practice. I think it’s much easier to teach the triangle if several players on one side already know how to do it and only one or two players on that side need to know where to move and such. So there is a use for some continuity in players. What is more, Phil told everyone he would bring some players back from last year. I’m sure he wants to come through on this because he wants to create an organization that has a reputation among players as a good place to work. So I am all for bringing a few back, especially if you know that their professionalism will set a good example for younger players So far we have Amundsen, Melo, Calderon, Early and probably Galloway. We probably should bring back at least two more from last years team so that about half the team has experience with the offense.

    228. Again, Mike, what behavior is out of line? To repeat what I already said… not “people are saying thing about you” but “you said X and that is not appropriate.”

      “The rest of you are just being huge jag-offs”
      “Open your mind a little. ”
      “On Monday’s thread you called Alecto an ass-hole and thenoblefacehum a prick. Neither attacked you.”

      I’m not going through every one of your posts and the replies to find every insult you’ve flinged. This is not a court of law where I need to prove to you or anyone without a doubt that you are acting inappropriately. Again, I’m not your personal researcher.

      I honestly cannot believe that you, of all people, are lecturing on appropriate behavior in a thread where you egged on a meme with no purpose other than to belittle one of your commenters.

      Yes I did. And I apologized for it. Although for the record the purpose was to bring up the topic so we can have a discussion, and see if anyone else who didn’t want to broach you directly would do so in an indirect manner. And yes, my wife is much better at communication and relationships, so looking back it was a bad tactic to take.

      I still haven’t seen any response on why I will be banned for asking people to defend their bball related views, but it is ok to make totally un-basketball related comments with no purpose but to insult me or to create an entire account that is an insult to me.

      Actually you have. There have been multiple people telling you precisely how your behavior is disruptive and out of line.

      Now that I’ve answered your concerns, I expect you to do the same. I’ve outlined a number of posts pointing out your behavior and you can add Donnie Walsh (@249) to the list. Please take the time to read them and understand what you’re doing wrong before posting again.

    229. PS Brian, don’t we need to be at a certain $ of the salary cap in order to qualify for the $2.8 million exception? Isn’t being $3 million under too much?

      No, actually. All you need to do is not have access to the other exceptions that kick in when you’re over the cap (the MLE and the mini-MLE). I think the idea is that if you have $20 million in cap space, you would just naturally not use the room until you used up the rest of that cap space. But theoretically, you can have $20 million in cap space and then only sign someone to the room. It’s just, why would a player accept just the room if you have the ability to give them more (the room, for instance, can’t be for more than two years)?

    Comments are closed.