Knicks Morning News (2015.03.09)

  • [New York Daily News] Knicks start off road trip vs. mega-trade partner Denver (Mon, 09 Mar 2015 03:22:29 GMT)

    Stinking it up on the East Coast has grown stale for the Knicks, so it’s a perfect time to embark on a league-worst roadshow out West.

  • [New York Post] Return of speed-ball? Mike D’Antoni may be getting new job (Mon, 09 Mar 2015 01:11:28 -0400)

    DENVER — There's a definite chance of speed-ball coming to the Rocky Mountains next season. The Knicks visit the Nuggets Monday to begin a five-game Western swing and will face…

  • [New York Post] Why the Nets believe they can take NY from Knicks (Mon, 09 Mar 2015 00:18:32 -0400)

    When Nets owner Mikhail Prokhorov paid for a gigantic billboard of himself and Jay Z to be unveiled within shouting distance of Madison Square Garden in June 2010, it was…

  • [New York Times] Pacers Think About Getting Better, Not About Paul George (Mon, 09 Mar 2015 06:54:47 GMT)

    A playoff spot is within reach, with Paul George potentially available to help grab it.

  • [New York Times] Ellis’ Big 3rd Quarter Helps Mavericks Beat Lakers 100-93 (Mon, 09 Mar 2015 04:21:51 GMT)

    Monta Ellis scored 18 of his 31 points in the third quarter, and the Dallas Mavericks closed with a 16-3 spurt in the final 6:36 to beat the Los Angeles Lakers 100-93 on Sunday night.

  • [New York Times] N.B.A. Game of the Week: Grizzlies at Wizards (Mon, 09 Mar 2015 04:13:29 GMT)

    Memphis’s season ended in disappointment last year after the team installed a new coach, but the change is paying dividends now. That’s just the sort of gamble Washington may need to consider.

  • [New York Times] Sports Briefing | Pro Basketball: Nets Fall to the Jazz; Tony Parker Lifts the Spurs (Mon, 09 Mar 2015 03:44:09 GMT)

    Parker had a season-high 32 points in leading the San Antonio Spurs to their fifth straight victory, a 116-105 home win over the Chicago Bulls.

  • [New York Times] Westbrook’s Triple-Double Leads Thunder Past Raptors (Mon, 09 Mar 2015 02:57:46 GMT)

    Even against a fellow All-Star, Russell Westbrook’s dominance continued.

  • [New York Times] Harris, Harkless Lift Magic Past Celtics, 103-98 (Mon, 09 Mar 2015 01:07:03 GMT)

    Tobias Harris and Maurice Harkless combined for 16 points in the fourth quarter Sunday night and the Orlando Magic beat the Boston Celtics, 103-98.

  • [New York Times] Jefferson, Hornets Beat Pistons 108-101 for 5th Straight Win (Mon, 09 Mar 2015 01:04:11 GMT)

    Al Jefferson scored 24 points and the streaking Charlotte Hornets beat the Detroit Pistons 108-101 on Sunday night in a matchup of Eastern Conference playoff hopefuls.

  • [New York Times] Hayward, Favors Lead Jazz Past Slumping Nets, 95-88 (Mon, 09 Mar 2015 00:30:47 GMT)

    Gordon Hayward scored 24 points, including five straight to stop a Nets rally, and the Utah Jazz beat Brooklyn 95-88 on Sunday night.

  • Liked it? Take a second to support Mike Kurylo on Patreon!

    Mike Kurylo

    Mike Kurylo is the founder and editor of KnickerBlogger.net. His book on the 2012 Knicks, "We’ll Always Have Linsanity," is on sale now. Follow him on twitter (@KnickerBlogger).

    114 thoughts to “Knicks Morning News (2015.03.09)”

    1. Pringles would actually be a great fit in Denver this time around. I hope they hire him.

    2. stratomatic March 8, 2015 at 8:09 pm
      If the Knicks trade their draft pick for anything other than a very good player and another very good draft pick, (excluding the fantasy nonsense like Anthony Davis) we should immediately move away from discussing the team and Phil Jackson and onto the 2020 rebuild and who the next GM will be.

      That’s the rub right there.

      Having said that, that has been my fear all along. Committing to Melo = trading that pick for an established, expensive player, and hoping to add one more via free agency. It would be the dumbest thing we’ve done since…committing to Melo 8 months ago?

      Phil failed his first test this summer, and if we’re being honest, he hasn’t done anything encouraging yet. It is fair to wonder how committed he is and if he knows what he is doing. This will be his second test, and unlike the first there is no going back from it. Maybe the Begley report was bunk (ok, it definitely was) but I think we all know that trading this pick is probably going to be considered because of Melo, even though it absolutely should not be.

      My worst fear is we do something incredibly stupid like trade the pick for a declining Dwight Howard or something like that, and I’m not confident that sort of stupidity is off the table right now.

    3. “Even the most advanced statistical models and theories pale in comparison to the depth of analysis performed by a knowledgeable, experienced basketball person. ”

      Paging Dr. Jowles…

    4. Yikes – this article: http://nypost.com/2015/03/08/knicks-thinking-unthinkable-with-excelling-bargnani-a-return/

      I shudder at the thought.

      But then guess who is averaging career highs in assist rate (12.5), rebound rate (10.5 bleh), free throw rate (0.38 good!), and PER (18.4)? And very close to career bests in TS% (55.2), TOV% (9.6), and WS/48 (.101)?

      Berman’s article suggests that he’s a 1-2 year minimum salary guy. I think that’s fine IMHO. As a 3rd or 4th big, he’s totally acceptable.

    5. “Most people (as seen in last night’s thread) judge trading a high draft pick for an established player (with a high salary to match his reputation) as a good move.”
      Since a lot of what was discussed yesterday was pure fantasy (e.g. trading the pick for Anthony Davis), how’s this for a fantasy — trade the #1 pick for Embiid and the #3 pick, and then turning around and trading the #3 pick for Cousins and the #6 pick, then trading the #6 pick for a pretty good player making like $6 million and the #15 or so pick, and then using the #15 pick for someone like Kaminsky. That would leave $5 million or so to pick up another ok free agent this year, and have like $20 million in cap space next year when the cap increases dramatically.

    6. “Berman’s article suggests that he’s a 1-2 year minimum salary guy. I think that’s fine IMHO. As a 3rd or 4th big, he’s totally acceptable.”
      Heresy around these parts but I agree.

    7. Which sample tells us more about how a player is likely to perform in the future? 14,000 minutes of basketball over 9 seasons, or 200 odd minutes over 12 games?

      Also, Bargs has-as he always has and always will-fucking sucked this season.

    8. Which sample tells us more about how a player is likely to perform in the future? 14,000 minutes of basketball over 9 seasons, or 200 odd minutes over 12 games?

      obviously you’re right about this statement. as for your next statement – he really hasn’t sucked this season in any sort of objective sense, other than that he was injured for most of it.

      what’s most likely? yes, it’s that he’ll revert to complete suckage. but Phil and Fish always thought he would play better than expected in the triangle. so far they’re right. so far.

    9. Cant wait for the Knicks statement of, If Bargnani was healthy from the getgo, with Melo, Calderon , Smith and Shump, we would have been a playoff team… Any day now.

    10. obviously you’re right about this statement. as for your next statement – he really hasn’t sucked this season in any sort of objective sense

      Nah, he’s sucked. Putting up a mediocre TS% while rebounding like a guard and playing awful defense means you objectively suck. Maybe you suck less than you have during some of your other even suckier season, and maybe you even suck less than some of the really sucky players you’re sharing the court with on the worst team in the NBA, but you still suck.

      Oh, but he’s putting up a career high number of assists? The triangle is perfect for Bargs! You know who else is putting up a career high number of assists? Cole Aldrich. Also Jason Smith and Lou Amundson.

    11. @ 3 (Hubert) – you have summed up my biggest fear too. Phil doubling down and trading the pick for immediate help because 1) Melo’s prime is now and 2) Phil is not planning on being around very much longer.

    12. My rational side says that if the question is would you pay the minimum for an injury prone mediocre backup center, then in a vacuum the only appropriate answer is a shrug. I’d rather have a mediocre backup C who isn’t injury prone, but I can’t get too fired up about it really.

      However my emotional side would much rather have not have Bargs around next year to remind me about how we don’t have our draft pick every time I see his big dumb face. So that’s a factor too.

    13. Here’s the right price for Bargnani-he gives us 22 million dollars and a first round draft pick and he can be on the roster next season.

    14. My rational side says that if the question is would you pay the minimum for an injury prone mediocre backup center, then in a vacuum the only appropriate answer is a shrug

      Your rational side is no good at rational analysis. Bargs is really bad at his job. There are people who can do the same job, but more effectively, for the same amount or even less money. Rationally, you don’t sign Bargs at all. The only appropriate answer is no.

    15. Nah, he’s sucked. Putting up a mediocre TS% while rebounding like a guard and playing awful defense means you objectively suck. Maybe you suck less than you have during some of your other even suckier season, and maybe you even suck less than some of the really sucky players you’re sharing the court with on the worst team in the NBA, but you still suck.

      No this is wrong. This isn’t what suck means. Bargnani has almost literally been Dirk this year. And Dirk is plainly dropping off, but he doesn’t suck yet, and neither has Bargs so far. But it’s 286 minutes on a terrible team and means absolutely nothing. Who cares if we resign him to the minimum. He sucked yesterday, he didn’t suck for an hour today, but he will almost certainly suck tomorrow.

      Which sample tells us more about how a player is likely to perform in the future? 14,000 minutes of basketball over 9 seasons, or 200 odd minutes over 12 games?

      Where was this when you were writing Cole into the all-star ballot in October?

      Analytics should be given the place it deserves: a tool to complement the tried-and-true “eye test”. The reason is pretty simple: the most sophisticated analysis and number crunching device available to mankind is the human brain. Even the most advanced statistical models and theories pale in comparison to the depth of analysis performed by a knowledgeable, experienced basketball person.

      If you want to effectively troll the Dave Berri sycophants into action, you’ve got to be a little less caricatured than that. Even the old school moneyball jokers had cool accents.

    16. Nah, he’s sucked. Putting up a mediocre TS% while rebounding like a guard and playing awful defense means you objectively suck.

      Um, does it make it better if I tell you he has a higher TS, assist rate, ORR, and a lower TO-R, all while delivering about the same rebounding rate (12.1 vs. 10.5) as Chris Bosh?

      Look, I don’t mean to be defending Bargnani here. He stinks and his greatest value right now is in furthering our tanking plan. I’m just saying that as a minimum salary player he wouldn’t be terrible as a 3rd or 4th big. Like playing 10 minutes/game.

    17. Bargnani has almost literally been Dirk this year.

      Dirk WP/48 .084
      Fucking Bargs WP/48 .008

      Dirk WS/48 .156
      Fucking Bargs WS/48 .101

      Dirk Real +/- .30
      Fucking Bargs Real +/- -1.24

      You literally are talking nonsense.

    18. Um, does it make it better if I tell you he has a higher TS, assist rate, ORR, and a lower TO-R, all while delivering about the same rebounding rate (12.1 vs. 10.5) as Chris Bosh?

      That tells you Chris Bosh has sucked this year. Seriously, can we stop this? Bargs is terrible. He’s had a 12 game stretch where he’s just been bad instead of being terrible.

    19. Your rational side is no good at rational analysis. Bargs is really bad at his job. There are people who can do the same job, but more effectively, for the same amount or even less money. Rationally, you don’t sign Bargs at all. The only appropriate answer is no.

      Oh don’t get me wrong, Bargnani is awful. But most backup/3rd string type Cs are awful (we have certainly gotten to sample a bunch of them this year). There just aren’t that many 7-footers in the world who can walk and chew gum at the same time. We’re going to have our hands extremely full in FA this year trying to put a starting lineup in place which means finding solid backups is going to be even tougher than usual. I’d prefer to still shoot higher than Bargs, but if he’s on the roster next year making the minimum to be the 4th big, I don’t think it’s rational to lose your mind about that.

    20. I have no problem with Bargs as a minimum player, but he should only see the court when one of the bigs ranked in front of him is hurt or in garbage time.

    21. Another benefit of signing Bargs is that he’ll make Towns or Okafor feel really good about themselves in practices.

    22. Bargs setting career highs in all his stat categories is small sample size theater–he’s injury prone, is one of the worst defenders in the league (which WS and WP dont accurately capture), and cant shoot beyond 18 feet. his value is shit, even at the minimum, even if he were to keep this up decent offensive production (which he wont). Why wouldn’t we just pick up a d leaguer and take a chance on him instead of taking a chance on Bargnani defying regression to the mean? I think this board has Stockholm Syndrome.

      The only reason to keep him on this team is for the GIFs.

    23. Its not Stockholm Syndrome. Its the same question that people asked about Amare.

      Amare on the Knicks for 20 million a year is a huge waste of money.

      Amare on Dallas for a few million purely as a back up is a great player.

      Similarly, Bargnani at 10 million a year and starting is a recipe for disaster.

      Bargnani on the minimum as a 3rd string bench option is a ok.

      We talk about player value in regards to their salary all the time on this blog. So why is it crazy for people to say that bargs on the minimum as a bench big would be a decent option for us?

    24. The guy we should be talking about as a min. contract addition for next year is Shved. He’s been pretty good thus far. He needs to shoot less 3’s (or get better at making them) and drive the lane more, but he’s a great passer and great ft shooter, Decent on D, and can play both guard positions.

    25. Also, the question last night that people debated, which I brought up, was whether you would trade the draft pick for Cousins AND their draft pick, which I still think is something that would give me pause. I really want Towns but if we end up drafting Okafor with the number 2 pick would people be upset with an Okafor for Cousins/draft pick trade?

      We’ve talked a lot on this blog about how the Knicks need help at every position. Cousins max is not a super max. And we’d have help at another position with another draft pick (i.e., rookie on cheap contract). Sacremento will not make the playoffs so it might even be a top ten pick.

      I don’t know if I do it for Towns but for Okafor maybe.

    26. We talk about player value in regards to their salary all the time on this blog. So why is it crazy for people to say that bargs on the minimum as a bench big would be a decent option for us?

      Because he’s injury prone and terribly unproductive, and there are better players available for the same price or less. Its really simple.

    27. amar’e is a much better offensive player than bargs and probably a slightly better (but still abysmal) defender and is also a better rebounder. One is a hyper-efficient post scorer pulling almost 3 consecutive 60+ ts% seasons, and one is a mid range jump shooter who hasn’t broken .56 ts% in his entire career. they’re planets apart.

    28. Another benefit of signing Bargs is that he’ll make Towns or Okafor feel really good about themselves in practices.

      Here’s the real reason to re-sign Bargs at minimum though not in the way d-mar intended. He’s an elite post defender – just ask Dwight and Hibbert. He therefore would be great in practice for Towns or Okafor in developing their post games which is key in the Triangle. If they’re able to score on Bargs in the post, it will be a cakewalk against other NBA defenders.

    29. the idea is that he’s a bad value even at minimum salary because he’s one of the worst players in the league

    30. I wouldn’t trade for Cousins plus a pick, full stop. Unless we were getting a deal so good that it would qualify as fantasy. We’re not winning a chip by getting him–if Phil wants to “win now”, we’d be better served by trading down for #3 and #6 and avoid impacting our 2016 cap room with an undeniably talented head-case like Cousins so we could then go for a last hurrah in the free agency sweepstakes. That pick is gonna be in the lower end of the lottery which sees a significant drop off in quality (though there are still some decent prospects).

    31. Let’s just max Bargs to make sure we have him locked up for the next 4 years

    32. HAHAHAHAHAHAHA I CAN’T TAKE THIS LEVEL OF STUPIDITY, YOU’D THINK AFTER YEARS OF BEING STUPID THE STUPID WOULD STOP BEING SO STUPID BUT IT GETS STUPIDER

    33. i fantasize about towns falling to #3 and us drafting towns and Johnson, forcing melo to play at the 4. how awesome would that be?

    34. But seriously guys: Is it just that you all love saying that stupid nickname, Bargs? It’s very close to “barf.” It’s one of the ugliest words that’s ever come out of a human mouth: Bargs. Bargs. Say it out loud. Bargs. It’s almost as ugly-sounding as “worst #1 pick of all-time” or “total waste of a roster slot” or “Phil Jackson is a fucking moron,” but not quite.

    35. /begin rant….What is happening on this board? Otherwise reasonable posters like Frank and Donnie are willing to trade Towns for Embiid and and a mid-round pick? How many bigs have to have their careers cut short due to foot injuries (unable to take repeated stress) before y’all will take off your rose-colored glasses? And Z-Man claims Ewing was a better prospect than Towns? Ewing was a beast on defense in college but showed nothing on offense – that developed in the NBA. Towns has greater set of skills at 19yo than any other college big in the history of the league: PnDive, PnPop, Post-up, 3 ball, passing, PnR defense, shot blocking. The only issue is whether he’ll be too soft and avoid contact…and Phil wouldn’t use him in spread PnR a la Tyson (i’ve watched Towns on the move jump, catch and dunk in one motion) and 4-out configs like Orlando Dwight Howard…../end rant

    36. In my mind, I had put the over/under at noon before all of the Bargs talk made Jowles’s head explode. At first, I couldn’t believe that it took until 1:00 pm but then I realized a fatal flaw in my analysis — isn’t he in a different time zones these days? I was thinking eastern when I should have been thinking mountain time.

    37. Bargnani is bad value at any contract, including one in which he plays for free. He fucking sucks. I have to hand it to him for somehow still fooling people despite sucking for 10 years, but that seems to be his only skill. Throwing away a roster spot on a horrible player like Bargnani instead of trying to find the market inefficiencies (Ed Davis, Aminu, Whiteside, Galloway, etc.) is how you resign yourself to being a shitty team.

    38. “And Z-Man claims Ewing was a better prospect than Towns?”

      Huh? Zanzi, u been drinking again?

      BTW, Ewing was a better prospect than Towns.

    39. I have to hand it to him for somehow still fooling people despite sucking for 10 years, but that seems to be his only skill.

      I assure you, it’s got nothing to do with Bargnani. It has everything to do with these scouting demigods on this site and elsewhere who think they can turn a piece of unadulterated horseshit into a bright, shiny chunk of gold.

      Bargnani fucking sucks, and no system or coach will ever change that.

      Question of the day: Could God create a basketball player so awful that not even he himself could improve him?

    40. (1) WP is a joke. (2) You Berri guys hate RAPM and “black box” RPM until it helps your argument. (3) If you like WS/48 per your argument then you think Bargs has been a bit above average this year, which does not equal “suck.”

      Dirk TS: .554
      Bargs TS: .552

      Dirk PTS Reb Asst / 36: 21 7.3 2.3
      Bargs PTS Reb Asst / 36: 19.6 6.5 2.4

      Both have been bad defenders according to stats more sophisticated than WP and WS, which predominantly use team defense as a very weak proxy. It just isn’t true that Bargs has sucked this year. It’s okay to admit this and still think that Bargs sucks, and will suck in the future, which are also true.

    41. Bargnani was always a negative value player because his scoring efficiency (even when he wasn’t struggling with injuries) was more or less average. When you combine that with his below average defense and poor rebounding the math is simple.

      However, IMHO, he’s one of the guys that Wins Produced underrates. The positional adjustment that Wins Produced uses requires that players that play C and PF be very good rebounders. The thing is, when you do most of your playing on the perimeter on offense creating spacing more like a SF (like Bargs), you will get fewer offensive rebounds (which carry a lot of weight in that system). Wins Produced has always dramatically underrated Dirk for the same exact reason. Even when Dirk was still close to his peak, they had him rated as an average or mildly above average player (which IMHO is preposterous). Rebounding is important, but it doesn’t have to come from the C or PF if his role on the team is to create space with outside shooting.

      So while I wholeheartedly agree that Bargs is a poor player, IMO he’s not not nearly as bad as Wins Produced suggests. You just have to build the team in a slightly different fashion if he’s on your team. You can hook him up with a SF that is great rebounder/defender that maybe doesn’t have an outside shot. Where that SF would be liability on offense for some teams, he’d be tolerable with Bargs at C.

    42. If we get a top 3 pick and don’t end up with Towns or Russell, I’ll be sooooooorely disappointed.
      If those guys are gone and we’re sitting at number 3, I’m guessing that we’ll pick Okafor and most likely trade him in a package deal…. but who really knows with this Jackson guy?

    43. BTW, Ewing was a better prospect than Towns.

      Oh god yeah. If y’all are too young to remember, Ewing was one of the biggest prospects in sports of all time. He was probably a bigger prospect than Shaq, LeBron, Bargnani, Davis…any one I’ve seen in basketball. This doesn’t mean he was better, it’s just you couldn’t find a single person arguing that he wouldn’t become the next Bill Russell.

    44. The thing is, when you do most of your playing on the perimeter on offense creating spacing more like a SF (like Bargs),

      The only space Bargnani creates is the 4 feet in front of him.

    45. If we get the #1 pick in the draft, I absolutely oppose trading it for Cousins. On the other hand if we have say, #3 or #4, Cousins is a very good player who can carry a team. If we got him and another pick that’s in the top third of the first round, I think that’s a good deal. Do you really want an untried guard from China instead of one of the leagues leading young big men? Of course we have to pay him more than we would the #3 or #4 pick, but we get a young guy with the new draft pick who probably good and will be cheap for a while. But this deal seems so good for the Knicks to me, that I doubt it would happen unless Cousins was forcing his way out of Sacramento.

      As for all the posters who hate Bargnani, the logic seems to be that since you never change your opinions based on recent performance, it’s impossible that he is actually better or doing better because the Triangle suits him.

    46. Oh god yeah. If y’all are too young to remember, Ewing was one of the biggest prospects in sports of all time. He was probably a bigger prospect than Shaq, LeBron, Bargnani, Davis…any one I’ve seen in basketball. This doesn’t mean he was better, it’s just you couldn’t find a single person arguing that he wouldn’t become the next Bill Russell.

      What’s even more amazing is that if you would have told those people that Ewing would be known most for his deep turnaround jumper and would shoot 74% from the line, it would seem obvious that he’d retire as the GOAT. It would be like knowing today that Okafor will become his generation’s defensive stopper.

    47. Which sample tells us more about how a player is likely to perform in the future? 14,000 minutes of basketball over 9 seasons, or 200 odd minutes over 12 games?

      Where was this when you were writing Cole into the all-star ballot in October?

      ptmilo,

      Since you’re the new Ted Nelson, you should be smart enough to see the difference between Player A, who played 14,000 terrible minutes followed by 200 below-average-to-average minutes, and Player B, who had played about 500 excellent minutes. One was a known quantity and one required more minutes to determine its value. You get it, right?

    48. Impossible to compare Towns and Ewing- Ewing played four years and was arguably the most dominant college player since Bill Walton. Times have completely changed and nobody of Ewing’s caliber would have played 4 years. Even at 19 Ewing was considered an all-time great defensive prospect and people forget just how athletic he was a Georgetown- go look at his old highlights. Would 19 year old Ewing have gone above Towns? Don’t know but when he did come out he was considered the biggest prize of the last 30 years- I’d say only LBJ comes close. The fact that a lot of guys drafted since had better careers doesn’t change the fact that Ewing was considered a better draft prospect.

    49. One was a known quantity and one required more minutes to determine its value. You get it, right?

      I get that people who don’t understand sample size enough like to make fun of people who don’t understand sample size enough.

    50. I would love to tip the scale from “what could we get if we trade our draft pick” towards “what can we get for melo”. And not just here, but in the Knicks front office, as well.

      Because as soon as we don’t sign Gasol or Aldridge or whoever Melo and Phil thinks is going to save us, that’s the direction we’re headed.

    51. The only space Bargnani creates is the 4 feet in front of him.

      Post of the day. lol

      As for Ewing, he was so good the league rigged a lottery for him or so it is alleged. Watch him as a freshman in the finals v. Carolina.

    52. What do you call a center who is being out rebounded by old man Nowitzki, who is an average player by WS (in significant measure due to his ability to take shots), and who mysterious sophisticated metrics tell sucks on defense? That dude sucks. Stop with all the clown shit defending Bargs because he’s managed to be mediocre on offense for 12 games.

    53. And Z-Man claims Ewing was a better prospect than Towns?

      Huh? Zanzi, u been drinking again? BTW, Ewing was a better prospect than Towns.

      My apologies Z, it was Frank who said yesterday: “no one in this draft is close to the prospect that Ewing was”. Obviously, Frank must have been drinking. And yes I have been drinking but only because Jowles’ shouting gave me a headache and drove me to the bottle.

      Regarding Ewing vs Towns I was not speaking to the hype or perception at the time but the substance.

    54. I get that people who don’t understand sample size enough like to make fun of people who don’t understand sample size enough.

      oh ok

    55. What do you call a center who is being out rebounded by old man Nowitzki, who is an average player by WS (in significant measure due to his ability to take shots), and who mysterious sophisticated metrics tell sucks on defense?

      You call him a slightly below average player. If you have one of those on your team as a bench player, that’s not horrible, assuming he’s not overpaid. Some newspaper writers and I think, some posters too, have commented that our current starting team would make a good bench for a good team in the NBA. That’s all people are proposing for Bargnani. As for his injuries, they are much less worrisome than Melo’s or Amare’s. He doesn’t have chronic joint issues. He took a horrific fall and tore a ligament, which could happen to any player. Then he had a a bunch of muscle strains. But those heal and are usually not chronic. If he keeps playing like he has recently and can be signed for a reasonable price, I am in favor of bringing him back.

      What the Barg’s haters have to worry about is that he might actually start playing better than he is now. After all, it has only been 12 games or so, and with completely new team mates and totally different team system. It’s not inconceivable he will improve over the rest of the season.

    56. Stop with all the clown shit defending Bargs because he’s managed to be mediocre on offense for 12 games.

      Summary of conversation.

      DRED: Bargs sucks, and even during his better shooting this year he has sucked.
      PTMILO: Bargs sucks, and always will suck, but has happened to not suck for his 286 minutes this year. Instead he has been mediocre like Dirk. This means nothing.
      DRED: Blasphemy! Dirk and Bargs cannot be compared because Dirk has four fifths of a rebound more and Dave Berri has an approachable-academic goatee.
      PTMILO: They’re actually pretty comparable this year. But it still means nothing and Bargs will still suck again tomorrow.
      DRED/Jowles: Why do love Bargs so much?? Are you his girlfriend??? Even when Bargs makes a shot, that shot sucks. The only way Bargs could ever produce a single win in an NBA game is if he played point guard and led all guards in rebounds. Stop drinking your Bargs clownjuice Mrs. bargsypants!!!

    57. Regarding Ewing vs Towns I was not speaking to the hype or perception at the time but the substance.

      I wasn’t, either. Ewing’s substance was off the charts, too! He was like Peyton Manning coming out of Tennessee, without the “he can’t win the big game” chatter. His floor was the Hall of the Fame, and sadly he never cleared that floor, because we were an abysmal franchise (save for a few years with Pat Riley). But he was legitmately (and deservedly) one of the best prospects in sports history.

    58. The only space Bargnani creates is the 4 feet in front of him.

      That’s pretty funny.

      I think you understand my point. If you are outside shooting big, you can’t get as many offensive rebounds, but the positional adjustment is designed under the assumption that you will. So you get penalized heavily. Whether Bargs is efficient or not is already reflected and punished via his TS%.

    59. Good lord.
      I go away for months…literally I think I have posted once in months … and people are debating Bargs at any price?
      This team is in desperate need for a clean start.
      Shed all the losing mentality. Gut the ‘culture.’
      The only folks in the Garden next year who have direct experience with this year’s season ought to be the fans. There shouldn’t be almost any player with memories of this season or last.
      Losing like this is a disease.
      Bargs is a career loser.
      I’m sure he is a very nice guy.
      But he’s a professional loser.
      He is putting up marginal numbers on a terrible team.

    60. Bargs has been a somewhat passable player in 286 minutes this year. That won’t last. You know what tells me it won’t last? The other 14,400 minutes of his career.

    61. OK WTF is going on here.

      Are we really trying to say that Karl Anthony Towns is a better prospect than Patrick Ewing was at that age? Like other posters have said, Ewing was supposed to be the next Bill Russell. Karl Towns is a really good prospect, and I’d be ecstatic if the Knicks ended up with him, but no one is confusing him with any of the all-time great centers. No one. Zanzibar, how old are you anyway?

      The fact that a lot of guys drafted since had better careers doesn’t change the fact that Ewing was considered a better draft prospect.

      Dudes, how many centers since Ewing have had better careers? Shaq? Tim Duncan? I think that list only goes 2 deep. And Ewing was drafted 30 YEARS AGO.

      If Ewing (and the rest of the Knicks of that era) played in a world without Jordan, the Knicks probably have a couple championships. I don’t even think that’s a homer-ish thing to say.

      And re: Bargnani – this whole thing is my fault and I apologize for this whole thread. Bargnani is not a good basketball player. As a minimum salary guy I think he’s ok. Totally defensible to roll the dice on a developmental big man also. Done.

    62. On Bargnani, the thing that gets me are the anonymous quotes talking about how Bargnani’s size provides rebounding. After ten years in the league, it is obvious that he is one of the worst rebounding forwards ever. Not just one of the worst rebounding 7′ forwards, but one of the worst rebounding forwards of any size. And not even when you account for the fact that he often plays on the perimeter on offense, he is still a horrible rebounder.

      This is what peak Bargnani gives you:

      1. Decent one-on-one post up defense;
      2. Good 14′ – 19′ range;
      3. Ability to step and dribble around hard close outs.

      These are Bargnani’s negatives:

      1. No concept of where he should be shooting;
      2. Amar’e-level bad defense in space;
      3. Lack of effort;
      4. Lack of rebounding;
      5. No conscience about jacking up 24′ shots that he cannot make;
      6. Horrible shooting from the corner 3;
      7. Excruciatingly bad body language; and
      8. Inability to stay on the court.

      I do not want him on the Knicks at any price next year.

    63. The fact that a lot of guys drafted since had better careers doesn’t change the fact that Ewing was considered a better draft prospect.

      Dudes, how many centers since Ewing have had better careers? Shaq? Tim Duncan? I think that list only goes 2 deep. And Ewing was drafted 30 YEARS AGO.

      I was referring to all positions, not just center. I think there are a fair number (though probably not lots) of guys who’ve had better careers than Ewing in the last 30 years. And Zanzibar- Towns certainly has a more diverse skill set but Ewing was the most dominant college player since Bill Walton and unlike some other great college players was athletically/physically ready to play in the NBA. And it’s not like he had no offensive game at all- he always had a soft touch around the basket and pretty good footwork. His shooting range might have surprised people but just about everybody assumed he’d eventually be at least decent on that end. Even at 19 he was a great prospect- a freak athlete with great size and fantastic defensive instincts- at least equal to Towns and by the time he came out it wasn’t just “potential” he had absolutely dominated the college game for 4 years.

    64. Bargs is playing worse than a no longer good Dirk Nowitzki, therefore he doesn’t suck. Well, I’m convinced.

    65. “Ewing was the most dominant college player since Bill Walton”
      I could be wrong, but I think that Chris Mullin won player of the year when Ewing was a senior and deservedly so. He was a better college player — and all of you 20-somethings who disagree with me never saw Mullin play in college. I watched about 75 Big East games that year (I’m exaggerating — maybe 35) and Mullin was great. Ewing was the better pro prospect, but Mullin was a better college player.

    66. Truth is if we don’t re-sign Bargs (love the name!), who’s gonna take Hibbert out of the paint?

      While I wasn’t scrutinizing the game, I did seem to hear a lot of “Hibbert is not coming out on him”. Your comment seems to be tongue in cheek, but in the two games, what I could be bothered to pay attention to indicated that either a PF guarded him or Hibbert styed put. If this is true then it would be real life proof (or disproof) of a hypothesis. (5…4…3…2…1 “small sample size!!!”)

    67. Bring Bargs back? Towns in the same solar system as Ewing?

      That’s some Fox News level trolling of THCJ and DRed.

    68. Otherwise reasonable posters like Frank and Donnie are willing to trade Towns for Embiid and and a mid-round pick?

      Trading for a package of Embiid and other Sixer picks is a reasonable idea. It may not work out, but it is reasonable. Embiid, healthy, would be the equivalent of last year’s #1 overall. Which by itself is reasonable exchange for this year’s #1, depending on how you rank the prospects of Okafor, Townes, Embiid, etc… Add to that another 1st rounder and a 2nd rounder and you are well within the realm of the “reasonable”.

      Embiid could be the next Oden. Or he could be like Blake Griffin and win roy after a year of recovery. It’s a modest risk with the possibility of extremely high reward.

      (ps– if two reasonable people offer a dissenting opinion to you, why is your first reaction to dismiss it as unreasonable?)

    69. Would David Robinson also be included in Centers better than Ewing? I guess they played in the same era but Robinson started his NBA career 4yrs later.

    70. shaq, duncan and robinson were the most anticipated and probably best prospects to come out ever… you might throw lew alcindor in there… they all produced pretty eye-popping stats… the amazing thing with duncan…he was a 4yr senior at age 20…

      towns compares very favorably to all of them at the same age… which is why he’s as good a #1 the draft has seen in years…

    71. Also, the question last night that people debated, which I brought up, was whether you would trade the draft pick for Cousins AND their draft pick, which I still think is something that would give me pause.

      I think it is much more realistic to expect the Knicks to trade whoever they draft for Cousins (or a similarly developed player). Forget about getting a lottery pick back. The reality is that the Knicks historically like to trade lottery picks for established players and nothing about Phil Jackson’s tenure this far indicates a shift from that.

      In 2002 the Knicks traded their lottery pick for McDyess. They got back Denver’s #25 pick (not their #5 pick), and that was after giving up Marcus Camby in the trade too. That is just one of many examples of the Knicks trying to fix it all by trading lottery picks for players further along in their development.

      When Phil signed Carmelo last summer and then slashed the gutted the roster for cap space it wasn’t to spend the next 4 years building through the lottery and play Moneyball with the free agent pool. It was to put a winner together as quickly as humanly possible.

      Whoever the Knicks draft this year will be short loved with the ball club. That’s the bar and I’ll take the under on whatever timeframe you want to apply to it.

    72. The relevant comparison here is Towns as an 19yo and Ewing as an 19yo. The expectation is Towns will continue to improve over the next 3 years. Here is a comparison of Towns to date compared to Ewing over his 4 years in college (the name typed is the one who had the better stat):

      FT%…………. Towns – 79% to 63%
      TOV/40…… Towns – 3.0 to 2.5 (and Towns probably handled the ball more)
      Dimes/40… Towns – 2.2 to 1.2
      BLK/40…… Towns – 4.6 to 4.5 (call it equal but Towns not playing center)
      TRB/40…… Towns – 12.8 to 12.0 (and Towns not playing center)
      STL/40……. Ewing – 1.5 to .8
      TS%…………. Ewing – .630 to .616 (we don’t have usage)
      FTR…………. Ewing – .535 to .508 (Towns not playing center)

    73. “His floor was the Hall of the Fame, and sadly he never cleared that floor, because we were an abysmal franchise (save for a few years with Pat Riley). ”

      Ewing played 15 seasons with the Knicks. They missed the playoffs his first 2 seasons then made the playoffs the next 13 seasons. They reached the 2nd rd 11 times, the conference finals 4 times and the NBA Finals 2 times during Ewing’s career with the Knicks. They won 50+ games in a season 7 times (4 times 55+ including a 60 win season). The Knicks with Ewing were as good as you can possibly be w/o winning a championship. Plus they were eliminated by Michael freaking Jordan 5 times during that span including 3 times in the 2nd rd and once in the conference finals.

      The Knicks have been an abysmal franchise in the 15 seasons since Ewing left but they were nowhere near abysmal during his Knicks career. If they draft Towns or Okafor and they go on to have similar Knick careers as Ewing it would be an amazing draft pick.

    74. I was at the McDyess draft. The Knicks were handing out orange towels emblazoned with “Lucky No. 7”. As I was entering, I heard a rumor that the Knicks were trading the pick and Camby for McDyess (who was already coming off an injury). I have never been more depressed for a draft.

      If the Knicks had kept Camby and drafted Nene, dayenu.
      If the Knicks had kept Camby and drafted Amar’e (#9 that year), dayenu.
      If the Knicks had traded Camby and the #7 for the #5, dayenu. Even if the Knicks picked Tsktishvili (an all-time bust), they would not have been saddled with McDyess’s salary and made the awful Marbury trade as a salary dump. Of course, they should have used the #5 to pick Amar’e.

    75. The relevant comparison here is Towns as an 19yo and Ewing as an 19yo. The expectation is Towns will continue to improve over the next 3 years. Here is a comparison of Towns to date compared to Ewing over his 4 years in college (the name typed is the one who had the better stat):

      FT%…………. Towns – 79% to 63%
      TOV/40…… Towns – 3.0 to 2.5 (and Towns probably handled the ball more)
      Dimes/40… Towns – 2.2 to 1.2
      BLK/40…… Towns – 4.6 to 4.5 (call it equal but Towns not playing center)
      TRB/40…… Towns – 12.8 to 12.0 (and Towns not playing center)
      STL/40……. Ewing – 1.5 to .8
      TS%…………. Ewing – .630 to .616 (we don’t have usage)
      FTR…………. Ewing – .535 to .508 (Towns not playing center)

      Except you can’t really use per 40 stats because Ewing played his entire career pre- 35 second shot clock so the pace was much, much slower. If you adjust for pace I’m guessing Ewing’s shot blocking and steal numbers are much better and his rebounding becomes much closer. Again, you’re comparing Towns to a guy who was probably a top 5 all-time college player at the time. And Johnno yeah Chris Mullen had a great senior season but Ewing’s career as a whole was vastly superior. All-time prospect? Kareem followed by Walton (maybe throw Wilt in there but he didn’t have the college success of those other two). Ewing’s down a notch from those guys but I think he was more highly touted than the bigs who came after him like Shaq, Duncan, and Robinson. And I’d add that if he didn’t have knee issues from the beginning of his career he might have been as good or better than any of those guys too.

    76. Embiid could be the next Oden. Or he could be like Blake Griffin and win roy after a year of recovery. It’s a modest risk with the possibility of extremely high reward. (ps– if two reasonable people offer a dissenting opinion to you, why is your first reaction to dismiss it as unreasonable?)

      I didn’t dismiss it as unreasonable, I dismissed it as downright nutty! It’s not a “modest risk” when a player in his only year of college ball suffers a stress fracture of the right foot, a stress fracture of the back and a sprained right knee. Even acknowledging Embiid and Towns are equal which I don’t ( .310 WS/40 to .213 WS/40), you don’t take on that huge risk just so you can draft Iman Shumpert.

    77. This Ewing vs. Towns debate is hilariously stupid. Not as stupid as Bargnani vs. anyone else (the latter wins), but stupid. Comparing raw stats without a basis of comparison (like NCAA averages, which would still totally different then than now) is fruitless. It’s even worse than WP48, which is a stupid way of approximating value, and also calls Bargnani one of the worst NBA regulars of the modern era, which can’t be the case, because I read that he’s a slightly-below-average player on this board, using the eye-test and WS48, through which he compares favorably to 36-year-old Dirk Nowitzki, who is a terrible rebounder.

    78. One last thing on Ewing vs. Towns. The college basketball landscape was completely different given how many of the top players played all four years. The level of competition was just much better- Ewing went up against more NBA caliber bigs than Towns. Also by the time he was a senior opposing coaches had three years of tape of Ewing to game plan with which made things a bit tougher. And finally, Ewing was the most reviled college player of his time- every road crowd did nothing but taunt the guy for 4 years so you knew he could mentally handle anything the NBA could throw at him. I love Towns and would take him number one- but I’d have taken Ewing over him in a heartbeat.

    79. Since the lottery began, I think Shaq and Robinson were comparable in terms of hype to Ewing. Davis, Oden/Durant and Webber would probably be on that next level. LBJ was above them all.

      But yeah, Ewing was a much more hyped up prospect than Towns.

      Towns is awesome, though!

    80. By the way, the Cousins stuff, while fine for rhetoric, is just that, since Sacto is not trading Cousins until they absolutely have to. It goes against their entire plan for the team (which is to acquire as many name players as they can to help sell the team in Sacramento). They are specifically opposed to traditional rebuilding. They’ve discussed their plan at great lengths, that they plan to take on famous players other teams don’t want anymore (remember, they tried to trade for Josh Smith).

    81. One last thing on Ewing vs. Towns. The college basketball landscape was completely different given how many of the top players played all four years. The level of competition was just much better- Ewing went up against more NBA caliber bigs than Towns. Also by the time he was a senior opposing coaches had three years of tape of Ewing to game plan with which made things a bit tougher. And finally, Ewing was the most reviled college player of his time- every road crowd did nothing but taunt the guy for 4 years so you knew he could mentally handle anything the NBA could throw at him. I love Towns and would take him number one- but I’d have taken Ewing over him in a heartbeat.

      Questions:

      1) Do you think that youth players have more experience now than in 1985? Do you think there are any economic factors regarding competition and reward that have changed or intensified since then?

      2) On any given year, there are 4500 Division 1 basketball players. Last year, 45 of those players declared as underclassmen. The NCAA loses about 1% of its players to the draft before they would be considered four-year players. I would argue that more players are lost to injury and academic sanctions than early-draft status.

      3) If Ewing was a dominant senior, wouldn’t this be considered an advantage for Towns? Towns faces the nation’s top underclassmen, and also faces the “veteran” players (the 99% who do not declare early for the draft). Wouldn’t this make Towns a more impressive player? It seems to me that Ewing would benefit from playing pimply-faced freshmen.

      4) Ewing was a reviled player, but fans are no less insane now than they were then. College fans are idiots who will yell and scream just about anything in the name of the academic institution their parents are paying absurd sums of money to. Towns also plays for Kentucky, which is a “heel” in collegiate basketball. Also, he is black. The idea that Towns doesn’t get heckled and abused by the young, drunk idiots in the stands is downright ludicrous to me.

    82. Would David Robinson also be included in Centers better than Ewing? I guess they played in the same era but Robinson started his NBA career 4yrs later.

      I will fight people who think Robinson was better than Ewing. Any day, any time.

    83. By the way, the Cousins stuff, while fine for rhetoric, is just that, since Sacto is not trading Cousins until they absolutely have to. It goes against their entire plan for the team (which is to acquire as many name players as they can to help sell the team in Sacramento). They are specifically opposed to traditional rebuilding. They’ve discussed their plan at great lengths, that they plan to take on famous players other teams don’t want anymore (remember, they tried to trade for Josh Smith).

      So they’re the NY Knicks West?

    84. Ewing played 15 seasons with the Knicks. They missed the playoffs his first 2 seasons then made the playoffs the next 13 seasons. They reached the 2nd rd 11 times, the conference finals 4 times and the NBA Finals 2 times during Ewing’s career with the Knicks. They won 50+ games in a season 7 times (4 times 55+ including a 60 win season). The Knicks with Ewing were as good as you can possibly be w/o winning a championship. Plus they were eliminated by Michael freaking Jordan 5 times during that span including 3 times in the 2nd rd and once in the conference finals.

      The Knicks have been an abysmal franchise in the 15 seasons since Ewing left but they were nowhere near abysmal during his Knicks career. If they draft Towns or Okafor and they go on to have similar Knick careers as Ewing it would be an amazing draft pick.

      Because of him, we weren’t abysmal. But everything around him (pre-Riley) was absolutely absymal. I’ll stand behind that all day.

      The Hubie Brown-Bob Hill years were a calamity.

      People seem to think Rick Pitino didn’t do more damage than good, but they’re wrong. We’ve had this conversation before, but he was handed prime Ewing, prime Oakley, young Jackson, and a healthy King – 4 elite halfcourt basketball players that could have been the foundation for a championship team – and he decided to run a full court press for two years and jettison King because he couldn’t keep up the pace (a pace that many people attribute the beginning of the deterioration of Ewing’s knees to).

      The subsequent Stu Jackson-Jon MacLeod years were as calamitous as the Brown-Hill days.

      The Riley era was the only time we didn’t surround him with crap…

    85. …And even that era was defined by bad moves in the front office:

      – they botched the Xavier McDaniel negotiations and used the cap space on Tony Campbell
      – they traded a first round pick for a washed up Rolando Blackmon
      – they used their best trade assets to acquire Charles Smith
      – the best player they ever drafted in the 90’s was my namesake, Hubert Davis, and he wasn’t very good.

      They were bailed out by the shocking, Linsanity-esque rises of Starks and Mason, without which we never would have competed. But the front office was consistently atrocious during the Patrick Ewing era, until maybe 1997-99 when Grunfeld fairly decently rebuilt the team on the fly and got fired for his efforts.

      I stand by saying the Knicks were very poorly run on every level during the Ewing tenure save for when Riley was coach.

    86. i would say duncan and shaq were by far the most hyped guys that i can remember… lebron is recent and pretty impressive for a hs student but duncan and shaq had a national collegiate stage… they were unquestioned unanimous picks since pretty much fresh/soph years and it was building for years until they hit the nba.. lebron had some insane people thinking melo deserved to be #1 just to make an argument… and he had the help of the internet…

      shaq probably trumps everyone for wow factor in their rookie year tho..

      in any case… towns probably compares better with duncan at the same age moreso than ewing given the era discrepancies…

    87. I will fight people who think Robinson was better than Ewing. Any day, any time.

      You and me against the world, Hubert. I got your back.

    88. I don’t see much of a reason to debate Ewing or to compare him to any of the draft prospects this year. Hopefully we’ll get a top 3 pick, not be stupid enough to trade it unless we get equal value (which would be unlikely), and he develops into 90% of what Ewing was. Ewing was an all time great and the best player the Knicks ever had by far (and I saw Frazier, Reed, and Monroe). If we get 90% of Ewing out of this draft, we should all be jumping up and down endlessly. If we should get so lucky as to get his equal, having Melo at the max will not only no longer be a problem, we’ll forget it’s an issue.

    89. Questions:

      1) Do you think that youth players have more experience now than in 1985? Do you think there are any economic factors regarding competition and reward that have changed or intensified since then?

      2) On any given year, there are 4500 Division 1 basketball players. Last year, 45 of those players declared as underclassmen. The NCAA loses about 1% of its players to the draft before they would be considered four-year players. I would argue that more players are lost to injury and academic sanctions than early-draft status.

      1. That’s a good point- AAU ball has changed the landscape as Freshman are now more seasoned.
      2. While that 1% looks small it looks a lot bigger when you throw out all the small conference teams that almost never have an NBA caliber guy on the team. If you’re losing 45 of the best college players a year (as opposed to the what, maybe 10 guys back in Ewing’s day?) you don’t think that makes a big difference when you factor in how many of those guys play in the major conferences? In terms of raw numbers it may not seem like a lot but at top tier schools the talent definitely gets diluted.

    90. I didn’t dismiss it as unreasonable, I dismissed it as downright nutty! It’s not a “modest risk” when a player in his only year of college ball suffers a stress fracture of the right foot, a stress fracture of the back and a sprained right knee. Even acknowledging Embiid and Towns are equal which I don’t ( .310 WS/40 to .213 WS/40), you don’t take on that huge risk just so you can draft Iman Shumpert.

      I’ve been called nutty much more than I’ve been called reasonable in my life. I prefer nutty, so thanks!

      To your points:

      A) you seem to be assuming that the Knicks would draft Townes with the #1 pick. I don’t think that’s a reasonable (non-nutty?) assumption at this point.

      B) You make it seem like Townes, or anybody else available at #1, carries no risk. Townes could blow out his knee in July. Okafor could fall down a flight of steps. All draft picks, ultimately, have a floor of Jay Williams and Len Bias.

      C) your logic dictates that you’d have given up on Michael Jordan in 1985, who also had a stress fracture in his foot at a young age. Back then there were no MRIs and no surgical procedure (probably a good thing, but that’s a nutty conversation for another nutty day:)

      D) draft Shunpert? (Are you saying that a player of Iman Shumpert ability is the absolute best a team drafting in the #11-15 range in this year’s draft could possibly hope for? (Now, that’s just downright unreasonable!)

    91. A) you seem to be assuming that the Knicks would draft Townes with the #1 pick. I don’t think that’s a reasonable (non-nutty?) assumption at this point.

      From what I’ve been reading, they seem to be scouting him more than anyone else. Take that for what it’s worth, I guess.

      B) You make it seem like Townes, or anybody else available at #1, carries no risk. Townes could blow out his knee in July. Okafor could fall down a flight of steps. All draft picks, ultimately, have a floor of Jay Williams and Len Bias.

      C) your logic dictates that you’d have given up on Michael Jordan in 1985, who also had a stress fracture in his foot at a young age. Back then there were no MRIs and no surgical procedure (probably a good thing, but that’s a nutty conversation for another nutty day:)

      There’s a big difference between a guard suffering a foot injury and a 7 footer. How often does a 7 footer have feet or knee issues early in his career, and then go on to have a great career? Maybe Embiid bucks that trend and goes on to have a HoF career, but it’s certainly considerably more risky than sticking with Towns 9assuming that’s who we get).

      D) draft Shunpert? (Are you saying that a player of Iman Shumpert ability is the absolute best a team drafting in the #11-15 range in this year’s draft could possibly hope for? (Now, that’s just downright unreasonable!)

      Shump Shump!

    92. But yeah, Ewing was a much more hyped up prospect than Towns.

      Anyone that thinks Towns is as hyped as Ewing could not have been around when he was drafted.

      I’m not much of a college basketball fan and neither are many of my friends. Yet, every one of us knew who Ewing was and was going crazy when the Knicks got the #1 pick because we all knew Ewing was a franchise changing player and we were 100% sure we were getting him. He was so hyped you watched his games even if you weren’t a college basketball fan just to see him play.

      If I took an informal poll of my friends right now, I’d bet only a couple ever even heard of Towns. If we win the draft lottery, I guarantee you I will get emails from them soliciting my opinion on who we should select. Towns is not even hyped enough to be the certain #1 pick or clear cut best option with the #1 pick.

    93. 3) If Ewing was a dominant senior, wouldn’t this be considered an advantage for Towns? Towns faces the nation’s top underclassmen, and also faces the “veteran” players (the 99% who do not declare early for the draft). Wouldn’t this make Towns a more impressive player? It seems to me that Ewing would benefit from playing pimply-faced freshmen.

      4) Ewing was a reviled player, but fans are no less insane now than they were then. College fans are idiots who will yell and scream just about anything in the name of the academic institution their parents are paying absurd sums of money to. Towns also plays for Kentucky, which is a “heel” in collegiate basketball. Also, he is black. The idea that Towns doesn’t get heckled and abused by the young, drunk idiots in the stands is downright ludicrous to me.

      3. Ewing was one of the top players in the country from the get-go. He didn’t earn that rep just feasting on freshman as a senior. Ewing’s freshman numbers were every bit as good as Towns. Over the course of 4 years you got to see him go up against far more NBA-caliber bigs than Towns will see this year.
      4. You’ve got to be kidding. I have no doubt that Towns gets taunted but nobody is throwing banana peels at him. The taunts directed at Ewing would certainly get kids immediately tossed from the stadium today if not suspended or expelled. I’m not sure society as a whole is that much less racist now but public behavior is much more policed. Ewing saw some variation of “Patrick Ewing can’t read this sign” pretty much everywhere he went. Towns isn’t seeing anything remotely comparable. Kentucky may be a “heel” but it’s nothing compared to Georgetown during the Ewing era.

    94. Please….
      for whatever reason lets not trade our pick for an established player.
      Let’s use the pick and try to build with Melo and young players.
      lets also not go all out for 2015 FA.
      We can use the dallas approach, sign some who will be a part of the team then sign players for 1 year rentals and we should be a major player for 2016 draft class.
      I am also keen on not using our money this year and just use it next year.

    95. Cousins to the Knicks is dumb. Want to see our future with the great DMC? Try to look at the Sacramento Kings. SF scorer, DMC, plus some pieces. So we’re trying to be like Sacramento Kings. Wow.

    96. The taunts directed at Ewing would certainly get kids immediately tossed from the stadium today if not suspended or expelled. I’m not sure society as a whole is that much less racist now but public behavior is much more policed.

      Good point.

    97. What about max Jimmy Butler.

      Butler and Melo could be our Jordan and Pippen.

      Then lets get 1 year rental players and get another big fish in 2016.

      Okafor
      PF
      Melo
      Butler
      Calderon

      will be enough for a playoff push

    98. Worst record guarantees a top 4 pick in the draft.

      100% chance at a top 4 pick and roughly a 2 in 3 chance of a top 3 pick.

    99. Lol I enjoy reading the blog sometimes on my coffee break these days. Whoever predicted that the disaster season would lead to some entertaining threads was spot on. It’s a nice rhetoric of delusional predictions, well measured comments and doomsdayers.

      I can appreciate why some people would be making the argument for AB on a minimum deal to be a 3rd big, but I think for everyone involved, the fresh start is the way to go. If he does re-sign for the proposed terms, I don’t think I would hate it so much as some people have suggested they would; I just don’t think I would be enamoured with the call. As much as we all love the GIF’s, I think for the collective sanity of this community of Knicks fans it’s best we let him ride off into the sunset in true Spaghetti Western style.

      I am certainly not old enough to remember Ewing as a prospsect. Not sure if this point has been raised, but considering that draft was potentially rigged so the Knicks could get him, that suggests he was potentially the better prospect.

    100. Jowles wrote: It’s even worse than WP48, which is a stupid way of approximating value

      Wow what an admission! For the longest time you were like those Japanese soldiers who hid in caves and were still fighting WW2 10 years after it ended. Grasshopper acquiring wisdom as he approaches ripe old age of 30.

      I’m a huge fan of Patrick Ewing. I watched him play at Georgetown and as a lifelong Knick fan. One of the best compliments you can pay any given player is to say that he maximized his talents and that’s certainly true of Ewing. And what he had to endure in college was despicable and beyond the pale. What’s not well understood is that people hung racist banners in his home Georgetown arena.

      Per 40 stats is all we got and we can use it as a start for discussion; for the most part those stats reflect the reality. What people don’t appreciate is that Ewing had very limited offensive skills in college. You could not build an offense around him. Towns offers all sorts of possibilities in this regard. You could high PnR a la Chandler, you could play 4-out like Dwight, you could play the Triangle. His last 13 games he’s put up Okaforian TS% as a PF. Is there any way Patrick’s defense could outweigh this? No. They’re closer than a lot of people think. Patrick blocked shots but also had a lot of goaltends. If anything, I might give a slight edge to Towns since he’s blocking a lot of shots as PF not center. Patrick was a more athletic defender (Taj-like) but Towns is very savvy and has Duncan-like instincts. Let’s give the overall edge to Patrick on defense but there’s no way it offsets the difference on offense.

      My greatest fear is we select Towns and Jax misuses him. We should be running spread PnR not the Triangle. Our main offensive weapon in the 4th quarter should be Melo/Towns PnR, PnPop. If Phil wants to run the Triangle for the first 3 quarters to involve other players more, that’s fine.

    101. I was about 9 when I started really watching the Knicks. Patrick Ewing and John Starks were my favorite players in the world. I never looked at Patrick Ewing and thought he resembled a monkey. I would have never remembered his college career or any of that happening. I never heard about the banana peel thing until reading it tonight and it’s disgusting to me. You can probably tell I’m white by this post.

    102. Ewing played against MUCH better competition in college than Towns. He was playing against guys when he was a freshman who were 22 years old and would be in their 3 rd year in the NBA today. By the way, the Ewing can’t read signs were the result of an article in the NY Times when he was a HS senior in which his high school coach said that he could not read. It had nothing to do with racism.

    103. “There’s a big difference between a guard suffering a foot injury and a 7 footer. How often does a 7 footer have feet or knee issues early in his career, and then go on to have a great career?”

      The problem with this question is that the sample size is small. Tiny, in fact. It is just seven footers who have had great careers. Of those players, I can tell you that Olajuwon missed almost a year of college ball because of a back injury. And Robinson broke his foot and still came back to play 10,000+ peak minutes (he led the league in WS/48 three time after his surgery). Even Bill Walton, as famous for his injuries as for his production, led a team to a championship and made the Hall of Fame. So of the small sample, a rather significant percentage of it actually overcame debilitating injury to be (or remain) great.

      As for Jordan’s stress fracture being different, Jordan was 6’6″ 220. Embiid is 7’0″ 249. Jordan was a lot closer to embiid’s height and weight than to that of the average 5’7″, 160 pound male. And he returned from the injury, without surgery, as physically dominant as he was before it.

    Comments are closed.