Knicks Morning News (2015.03.04)

  • [New York Post] Fired Shaw, a triangle guru, could land job on Knicks coaching staff (Wed, 04 Mar 2015 01:49:59 -0500)

    There's a new free-agent on the market — one Phil Jackson adores. Brian Shaw, who considers Jackson his mentor, was fired as Nuggets head coach on Tuesday, not even getting…

  • [New York Post] NBA slaps Knicks’ Jackson with fine for comment on Ohio St. star (Wed, 04 Mar 2015 00:53:30 -0500)

    You can't take Phil Jackson anywhere. On Jackson's first college-recruiting trip Thursday at Ohio State, the Knicks president got his club fined for remarks he made about OSU guard D'Angelo…

  • [New York Times] Gallinari Helps Nuggets Beat Bucks Hours After Shaw’s Firing (Wed, 04 Mar 2015 05:46:00 GMT)

    A change on the bench gave the Denver Nuggets a boost and ended six weeks of frustration for the struggling franchise.

  • [New York Times] N.B.A. Roundup: Ugly Gets Uglier as Kings Hand Knicks Their Worst Setback of the Season (Wed, 04 Mar 2015 04:57:33 GMT)

    The Knicks, whose previous worst loss was by 28, fell by 38 at home against Sacramento, which got 25 points from Rudy Gay and never trailed.

  • [New York Times] For Knicks, There Is One Plus: Game’s Over (Wed, 04 Mar 2015 04:35:14 GMT)

    The plus-minus statistic measures how a team performs when a particular player is on the court. On Tuesday against the Kings, Langston Galloway was minus-40 in only 23 minutes of play.

  • [New York Times] Teague, Horford Help Hawks Rally From 18 Down, Beat Houston (Wed, 04 Mar 2015 04:07:04 GMT)

    Al Horford knew the Atlanta Hawks would eventually respond to Houston’s big lead.

  • [New York Times] James Scores 27 on Milestone Night, Cavs Cruise Past Celtics (Wed, 04 Mar 2015 04:01:36 GMT)

    LeBron James doesn’t usually spend a lot of time talking about personal accomplishments, but he made an exception Tuesday night.

  • [New York Times] No Rose, No Butler, Short-Handed Bulls Beat Wizards 97-92 (Wed, 04 Mar 2015 04:01:32 GMT)

    Nikola Mirotic scored 23 points to lead the short-handed Chicago Bulls to a 97-92 win Tuesday over the Washington Wizards.

  • [New York Times] Hayward, Favors Lead Jazz Past Grizzlies, 93-82 (Wed, 04 Mar 2015 03:58:46 GMT)

    Gordon Hayward and Derrick Favors scored 21 points each, Rudy Gobert added 15 points and a career-best 24 rebounds to lead the Utah Jazz to a 93-82 victory over the Memphis Grizzlies on Tuesday night.

  • [New York Times] Rudy Gay, Kings Hand Knicks Worst Loss of Season, 124-86 (Wed, 04 Mar 2015 03:10:01 GMT)

    Rudy Gay scored 25 points, DeMarcus Cousins had 22 and Ben McLemore finished with 20 and the Sacramento Kings handed the New York Knicks their worst loss of the season Tuesday, 124-86.

  • [New York Times] Jefferson, Williams Lead Hornets Past Lakers 104-103 (Wed, 04 Mar 2015 02:55:00 GMT)

    Al Jefferson had 21 points and 16 rebounds, Mo Williams added 20 points and 13 assists and the Charlotte Hornets beat the Los Angeles Lakers 104-103 on Tuesday night for their third win in four games.

  • [New York Times] Denver Nuggets Fire Coach Brian Shaw With Team in Slide (Wed, 04 Mar 2015 02:28:08 GMT)

    Last week, Denver Nuggets players broke their huddle with a chant of “1-2-3 … Six weeks,” interpreted by some as a countdown to the end of a season gone sour.

  • [New York Times] LeBron James Moves Up to 21st Place on Scoring List (Wed, 04 Mar 2015 01:46:20 GMT)

    LeBron James has moved into 21st place on the career scoring list with 24,506 points.

  • [New York Times] Cavs’ Irving Set to Return vs. Celtics (Wed, 04 Mar 2015 00:08:17 GMT)

    Kyrie Irving admitted missing two games with a strained left shoulder wasn’t easy.

  • [New York Daily News] Garden fans chant for Tom Hanks as Knicks blown out by Kings (Wed, 04 Mar 2015 06:46:17 GMT)

    Knicks fans were so disinterested late in the fourth they started a loud “Tom Hanks” chant for the actor who was in attendance.

  • [New York Daily News] Knicks’ Jackson fined for discussing Ohio St. guard Russell (Wed, 04 Mar 2015 05:10:41 GMT)

    The NBA has fined the Knicks an undisclosed amount over president Phi Jackson’s public remarks on Ohio State freshman D’Angelo Russell.

  • Liked it? Take a second to support Mike Kurylo on Patreon!

    Mike Kurylo

    Mike Kurylo is the founder and editor of KnickerBlogger.net. His book on the 2012 Knicks, "We’ll Always Have Linsanity," is on sale now. Follow him on twitter (@KnickerBlogger).

    128 thoughts to “Knicks Morning News (2015.03.04)”

    1. You realize that every gm that we’ve had prior to phil for the last 6 years would’ve made pretty much the identical moves to phil right?

      To even imply that Phil could be somehow worse than Isiah or Layden is just so absurdly alarmist it beggars belief. Every GM for the past 15 years has had a signal failure or string of failures that’s as bad or even worse than the Carmelo contract (Trading for Mcdyess, Steve Francis, Marbury, EDDY CURRY, an embarrassing sexual harassment suit, amnestying Billups, signing Stat, trading for Bargnani, trading for Camby) At very worst you can only claim that PJ is business as usual.

    2. Basically you better hope James Dolan dies of a heart attack soon if you want the Knicks to get better. Or you could stop spamming the forums with your frankly tiresome doomsday shtick and recognize that we’ll be at minimum mediocre for a few years (genuine improvement) and have more decent draft picks than we’ve had for a long time.

      The Knicks will never have a great GM until Dolan’s gone, plain and simple. But Phil may or may not turn out to be the best we’ve had since Walsh; we’ll have to see. There’s some kind of adage about patience being a virtue that applies here.

      EDIT: forgot to add the inexplicable Allan Houston contract to that list of spectacular failures.

    3. Actually it’s possible to get a decent GM under Dolan only what by I assume is pure luck and/or witchcraft (Glen Sather); neither of which we should be expecting to strike anytime soon.

    4. This is some kind of inspired comedy routine, right?

      There is enough evidence, in my opinion, to feel that Phil Jackson is a major, major risk for the franchise. a risk not worth taking. There’s a very good chance Jackson will turn out to be Dolan’s biggest blunder ever.

      I mean, in the last 18 months, possibly (though unlikely) – but ever?

    5. I’ll tell you what’s really pathetic: thousands of people chanting the name of that pathetic fraud Tom Hanks during a Knicks game.

    6. Luke, bottom line is that your “analysis” hardly comes across as worthy of intelligent discussion, a la merciless critic THCJ. For example, you conveniently ignore the fact that 1) Jackson never implied that this roster was a lock for a playoff spot, only that it could compete for one, 2) most analysts felt the same way…at worst, they had them missing by one or two spots, 3) Phil made it clear that the reason he felt this roster could be competitive was because the East was so terrible, and 4) the biggest deal he made (Chandler) was widely praised at the time. This is not to say that Phil is a good GM or has made great moves, but your propensity to harp on things in hindsight and propose ridiculous zero-probability solutions (e.g. firing Phil now) is pretty tiresome.

    7. I mean, Phil Jackson hasn’t even come CLOSE to the blunders done in the past 15 years. Re-signing Melo was a given, and I only have an issue with the price tag and NTC (But DEFINITELY not in the same ball-park as Houston, STAT, Bargs, Marbury, CURRY).

      PJ’s biggest blunders seem to all be slightly undervaluing players traded away. I spoke a few times about the Chandler trade that was not that bad for an expiring 31 year old, and the JR/Shump and Prigs, etc., trades are not that bad. Maybe in the low negatives, but not that bad.

      Fisher needs time and a roster. Hell, we all know the Popovich-almost-got-canned story.

      The roster is now full of scrap heap finds that PJ picked up when he gave up on the year- and you know what? He didn’t pick up any legitimately sucky players.

      Basically, PJ’s biggest moves are in the next 6 months.

      Let’s cool it with the theatrics, but then again, this is all the entertainment this forum will give us for a while, so go on ahead.

    8. I know it’s a small deal, but Phil getting fined for making comments about Russell, worries me. And this is the second time he’s been fined for this (first was commenting on Fisher while he was still a player). I know Phil is more of a “big picture” guy, but it seems to be that you’d want your team President to know and follow the rules. If a long-tenured GM had made this mistake, he’d probably get a pass, but it doesn’t look good for a new executive (especially twice).

      And this defense is just ridiculous.

      The Knicks argued Jackson didn’t break the spirit of the rule since Russell is a consensus top-four pick
      .

    9. ESPN:

      Maybe Pop is right. Maybe any coach’s system would have worked in San Antonio after two trips to the draft lottery — one in 1987 and the next in 1997 — delivered David Robinson and Tim Duncan.

      Or maybe the Spurs’ story would have been totally different had they lost a regular-season road game to the Houston Rockets on March 2, 1999.

      That was during the NBA’s first lockout season, which was shortened to 50 games by a work stoppage that nearly consumed all 82. It was also Duncan’s second season as a Spur, laden with championship-or-bust expectations, only for the Spurs to stumble from the start to a worrisome 6-8 record.

      A popular former Spur named Doc Rivers also happened to be a member of San Antonio’s broadcast team in those days. The fans’ clamor for Rivers, who was already being billed as a coaching natural, to replace that what-has-he-ever-done Popovich got louder with every loss suffered during the slow start.

      But by the time the Spurs were headed to Houston for the 15th game of a truncated schedule that left no time for early slumps, pressure on Pop wasn’t coming solely from the public or the media. The belief among many of Pop’s players was that the coach was on the brink of being fired. Or being forced, at the very least, to return to a GM-only role.

      “It was different from the regular pregame,” former Spurs forward Malik Rose said, rewinding back to the game in question against a Rockets team headlined by Hakeem Olajuwon, Charles Barkley and Scottie Pippen.

      “David [Robinson] usually didn’t say much beyond a prayer in the huddle when we brought it all in, but [before this game] David was saying, ‘We’ve got to get it together, we’ve got to do this, this is a big game.’

      “If we lost that game, they were going to fire Pop and bring in Doc … that was the rumor. I would have to say it was real because of the gravity in the locker room. I’ll never forget it.”

    10. “Mindboggling that Phil Jackson actually thought this roster was playoff caliber.”
      I must have missed the time when Phil said that THIS roster was playoff caliber. My recollection, flawed as it may be, was that he was referring to a roster that included a healthy (and motivated) Melo, Shumpert, JR, Pablo, Calderon, Amare and Dalembert. I don’t think that many people disagreed that THAT roster had a chance to eke out 35 wins or so and sneak into an 8 seed. Turns out that Melo was never healthy after the first game, Calderon has been hurt on and off all year, Amare inevitably broke down again, JR was and always will be an unmotivated knucklehead, Shumpert regressed yet again and completely lost his confidence after his first 9 games (and then got hurt yet again) and Dalembert completely forgot how to play basketball. If Phil thinks that the current roster is playoff caliber, we’ve got problems, but my guess is that he knows enough about basketball to realize that THIS roster is pretty bad.

    11. “I know it’s a small deal, but Phil getting fined for making comments about Russell, worries me.”
      I agree — it’s a small deal.

    12. @Johnno-
      Exactly.

      @Rashiiid-
      PJ has always used fines to his advantage; he probably thinks it makes people hear him louder. It worked with the refs when he coached the Bulls/Lakers…

    13. I’ll agree that what we have seen from Phil and Fish is a bit alarming.

      First – the Tyson trade (which I was in favor of at the time) looks like a massive misreading of the market. It doesn’t matter at all that other people were thinking it was a reasonable trade for the Knicks at the time. Phil is getting paid $12MM/year to make the prescient move, not a move that seems like a good idea to the average Joe at the time. I get the idea that he wanted to get rid of Felton (whose relatively minuscule contract could have been stretch-waived), that he thought Tyson totally mailed it in during a bad season (probably true), and that getting some young blood on the team (Thanasis, Early, Larkin) was a good idea, but overall it was a bad deal. Of the 3 draft picks, only Thanasis really looks like he has a reasonable shot of being an impact player. Larkin’s ceiling is probably JJ Barea. Early does not look like he has any idea what he’s doing, which is not a good quality in a 24 year old NBA player. Add to that taking on Calderon’s contract– yikes.

      Second – I worry very much about how the Triangle is perceived across the league. Some of this is just group-think re: where analytics is taking the league. However, it was not that long ago that the analytics guys were perceived as outsiders and their non-conformist thinking eventually became the future. I’m not saying the Triangle is the future, but I think there is still room out there for “Triangle concepts” in a successful NBA offense. I’m just waiting for Fish to show me how he is going to modernize the offense. Difficult to tell with the talent that’s on the floor for the Knicks though.

      That said – zero chance the Knicks are going to fire Phil and Fisher. It’s not even worth talking about. They’ve had enough success in their careers that they deserve 3 years. if by 2017 we’re still talking about lottery picks, then it’s time to pull the plug.

    14. Am i missing something about donnie walsh? Didn’t he strike out big time on Lebron? Trade off or lose players that are still good right now, zebo? crawford? Hire Dantoni-ultimately a huge mistake. Sign Stat effectively setting our franchise back for 5 years maybe more?

    15. Was never big on Walsh, but to be fair he was probably more than handcuffed by Mr. Dolan.

    16. @ 18 – I completely agree with you and will also add to the posters saying that Phil did not guarantee playoffs only said its a possibility. The trade of Tyson for Calderon was a win now move, if he didnt think the team was playoff ready he should have received future assets (ie picks). Also, even if Phil only thought that this team would compete for a playoff spot could he have been more off? This team is f’ng awful.

      I tend to agree with Captain Luke. I have little confidence in Phil and/or his “vision”. He’s not going to get fired so we’re stuck with him but I’m worried about the next 6 months.

    17. I don’t think either Phil or Fish has been good at all, but I think going to the level of clamoring for them to be fired is getting a bit ahead of ourselves.

      Fisher I think got off to a really slow start, but to some extent that’s expected for a guy who was not only a first time coach, but one without any coaching experience at any level. The logical comparison is Kidd, who also looked awful for the first half of last year, but quickly ascended to seemingly an above-average NBA coach. Is Fisher making the same positive steps? It’s a bit hard to say because the roster has been so stripped down at this point, but I do think there has been some progression in the offense, some progression in his calls out of timeouts (seen a lot less of the 24 second violations out of timeouts the last few weeks), some progression in his handling of the rotations, etc. I think you really need to give him at least another half season with an actual NBA roster to have a sense of what you have with him.

      As for Phil, I won’t really defend any of his moves, and the most important one, the Chandler trade(excepting Melo’s deal which, if we’re being honest, wasn’t even a true decision point), has flopped the hardest. But I’m a realist, and realistically looking around, who would be a replacement for Phil and an upgrade? With Dolan at the helm we’re not going to bring in some 25-year old wunderkind from San Antonio, strip the team down to nothing, and rebuild. It just isn’t going to happen. And as long as we’re looking first and foremost to build a veteran team capable of contending in short order, and do it mainly through free agency, Phil seems like a pretty reasonable choice. His strongest attribute should be his ability to recruit, and he hasn’t had a chance to do it yet. Lets see him try his hand before we call him a failure.

    18. Yes, he thought a Calderon/Shump/Melo/STAT/Dalembert lineup with JR off the bench was a possible playoff team in a horrible Eastern Conference.

      So did most of us, and I don’t really blame PJ for this.

    19. “The trade of Tyson for Calderon was a win now move, if he didnt think the team was playoff ready he should have received future assets (ie picks).”

      He got picks.

    20. “Most of us” are not getting paid 12M to do it. He could have traded Chandler for future help instead traded for Calderon because he completely misread his team. If you want to give him a pass because most people thought (another thing i disagree with) this team was a playoff team be my guest, I won’t.

    21. @26 – 2nds. Mozgov cost the Cavs 2 first round picks. I think he could have gotten more/higher picks for Tyson but he agree to take back Calderon b/c he thought this team with a better PG could compete in the East.

    22. @29 –
      Mozgov for 2 1st rounders
      VS
      Tyson for Calderon/Dalembert/Larkin/Ellington/2 2nd rounders/loss of Felton

      @30- Calderon was pretty damn good last year, and Dalembert was a pretty good center last year. They weren’t risky players to attain by any stretch

    23. Calderon played 30.5 MPG as PG last year, Dalembert 20.5 mpg as starting C on a 49-win team in the west

    24. For all of you clamoring about Phil being deluded, why don’t you go revisit the preseason poll. 61% of Knickerbloggers thought we’d be a team that could contend for a low end eastern playoff spot (35 or more wins).

    25. Captain Luke, do a Google search and find out what every GM in the league (except maybe HInkie from the Sixers) was saying before the season. I’m sure you’ll find them all saying “we see ourselves as a playoff team”.

      To keep harping on Jackson saying that is just a waste of time IMO.

    26. Its ludicrous to give Phil Jackson a hard time because the opening day roster underachieved. I thought for sure we had a playoff caliber team. Last year’s team underachieved and was a playoff caliber team ( we missed by one game). To start the season we had veterans, Melo, JR and Shump who should have been motivated to step up, etc. Heck we beat Cleveland in our second game.

      But Melo got hurt. Calderon was hurt the first month of the season. JR and Shump and Hardaway did not step up. The team sucked. But on paper our training camp roster should have been a playoff team. So Phil did not overestimate them. They underachieved.

      And the second it became apparent that was the case, he began to make moves to dismantle said team and tank, which everyone agrees is the right thing to do in that situation.

      Also, way to EARLY to write off Early. He’s not gonna look good as a rookie on a team of D-Leaguers. He also has been hurt so got off to slow start.

      Top draft pick and 30 million in cap space. That is where Phil Jackson has gotten us.

      Its SOOO easy right now to crap on Phil and this organization bc we’re losing. And it sucks because anyone who disagrees can’t really say anything till this summer. So we just have to be patient. But the doom and gloom is annoying, especially since its every single day. Why not talk about the merits of who we might draft? Or talk about who we should pick up in Free aGency that we think is getable?

      Or who you think we should pick up for cheap as flyers or to fill out the roster next year. Or who you think we should keep from the current team we have now (cause I think a lot of them we should keep).

      Don’t put the last 15 years of ineptitude on Phil. Judge him after this summer and midway through next season. Because if you are calling for him to get fired now, you are basically asking for the same knee jerk reactions that have buried this franchise in the past.

    27. Can we get through a draft and a round of free agency before we kill everyone everyday? Jesus.

    28. “Don’t put the last 15 years of ineptitude on Phil. Judge him after this summer and midway through next season. Because if you are calling for him to get fired now, you are basically asking for the same knee jerk reactions that have buried this franchise in the past.”

      “Don’t put the last 15 years of ineptitude on Phil. Judge him after this summer and midway through next season. Because if you are calling for him to get fired now, you are basically asking for the same knee jerk reactions that have buried this franchise in the past.”

      DOUBLE FATALITY

    29. I don’t think you can fault people for expecting the worst. This team has been awfully shitty for an awfully long time. The high water mark of the last 15 years of this franchise was a first round playoff win against the decaying remnants of the Garnett/Pierce Celtics. We’re the worst team in the NBA and we have no 2016 draft pick, and we have a thirty-something Carmelo Anthony on a max contract for four more years, and he hurt his knee two games into his max contract. Things don’t look real sunny at the moment. If Phil manages to turn this around it will be a great story, but his moves so far do not inspire lots of confidence.

      Maybe he learns from his mistakes and figures out a way to put a winner on the floor. Or maybe we’re witnessing the Peter Principle in action.

    30. I want Phil to stay at least another year, but not because I think he’s done a great job so far. I think any GM would have rehired Melo and many of them would have given him the max or given slightly less than the max but pissing Melo off with their negotiating stance. So he’s not worse than other GMs in this respect. His trades have not been good in retrospect, but we also don’t know how the young players will do in the future, so perhaps the trades will look better in the future.

      I want him to stay because, other than rehiring Melo, he’s managing differently than previous GMs did and that is a good thing. He’s putting team basketball first, and stars second (with the exception of Melo). As an example of this, he had the Westchester Knicks places close to home and insisted they run the same coaching system as the Knicks do.

      Most of the objections in this forum to Phil have two complaints. One, he made bad trades (or he could have gotten a better deal, which is the same complaint) and two, he will blow his draft picks and cap space in some way that makes for only a mediocre team without much room for growth. But fans always think that trades and free agents should be cheaper for their team. For example, the Denver fans are probably complaining that there is no way they are going to get a replacement center of Mozgov’s capability for late first round picks. And the second complaint is basically making the assumption that Phil would screw it up the same way our previous GMs did. I’m willing to wait and see.

    31. If I have any concern about Phil, it’s that he does do weird things (the dumb tweet after the Cavs game, e.g.) and he also does not come across as very well spoken for a guy who’s supposed to be a deep thinker and the Zen master. It seems like he has trouble expressing himself and it sometimes comes off as gibberish.

      Now, whether that translates into disaster as a GM, I guess we’ll have to wait and see.

    32. Well since this is supposed to be an advanced stats blog/forum…

      Last year WS/48 numbers
      Guard X .053
      Center X .143
      Total = .196

      Center Y .147
      Guard Y .122
      Total = .267

      Career WS/48 numbers
      Guard X .068
      Center X .161
      Tota l= .229

      Guard Y .127
      Center Y .114
      Total = .241

      Last year WP/48 numbers
      Guard X .072
      Center X .222
      Total = .294

      Guard Y .146
      Center Y .192
      Total = .338

      Career average WP/48
      Guard X .090
      Center X .246
      Total = .336

      Guard Y .199
      Center Y .163
      Total= .362

    33. If Steve Mills had made the moves that Jackson had made, I’d have actually been somewhat impressed, as C-level trades were sadly a step up from previous Knick decisions. Jackson was somewhat disappointing because he kept making mediocre moves, but since the Chandler deal, he has been working towards this offseason. If he botches this offseason, then fair enough, then he deserves to be knocked. But he hasn’t botched this offseason yet. I don’t think anything he’s done has been terrible so far – just not impressive (except for that minor Prigs deal). His biggest test will be who he drafts and who he signs.

    34. “Phil Jackson has shown enough (to only a few, apparently) that he should not be trusted with those decisions.”
      Bad news — whether he should or shouldn’t be trusted with those decisions doesn’t matter one iota because, like it or not, there is a 100% chance that he will be trusted with those decisions.
      “My take on the whole thing is that the next two moves (using the accidental high pick and spending the available cap) will determine the team’s fate for the next 5 years.”
      I think that you will get unanimous agreement about this statement.

    35. Yeah, exactly, if this offseason goes poorly, then sure, bad job, Phil Jackson. It’s not like everyone is going to give him a total pass if he doesn’t do well this offseason. But we have to at least give him the chance first.

    36. The Chandler trade didn’t really pan out, but it wasn’t a franchise wrecker.

      The Shump/JR trade was kind of “meh,” but at least they moved JR’s contract. Not a franchise killer.

      The potential franchise killer was the MMM contract. That one may really turn out to be a complete disaster.

    37. Yeah, the MMM contract is a weird one, in the sense that yes, it was a terrible, terrible, terrible decision by Jackson. But it was a terrible, terrible, terrible decision that every GM that Dolan ever would have hired would have made. I do think that you’re right, though, that we (in this instance, “we” basically meaning “me”) probably give Jackson a bit too much of a pass on how terrible of a contract he gave Melo. I think that that is a fair point.

    38. It was a terrible contract, but I can’t think of another GM that wouldn’t have done it if Melo insisted.
      (Morey? Buford? Forman?)

      Truth is, free agents wouldn’t sign with the Knicks without Melo, and warts and all, he’s a top 15 player (maybe top 10 – at least, if on a good team).

    39. It will come down to this offseason, the question will be if Jackson can’t get the guys he wants will he overspend on guys that will send us to mediocrity. Not having the draft pick next year really kills us, but i would still just give out 1 year deals next year if we can’t sign impact guys and roll the capspace over to what should be a huge jump in the cap the following year.

    40. From Twitter:
      “Russ Westbrook has 4 triple-doubles in his last 12 games… The Knicks, as a franchise, have a total of 3 triple-doubles in the last 12 years”

    41. Truth is, free agents wouldn’t sign with the Knicks without Melo,

      Melo might have an impact on players signing here, but there’s no way that they would be striking out on guys if he wasn’t here, so I don’t believe that to be the truth at all. The Knicks have a lot of cap space, a possible #1 draft pick and the fact that they are in one of the biggest markets in the world. They’re going to draw guys with or without Melo.

      That said, yes, I agree that most GMs give Melo the same terrible contract Jackson did. The most maddening aspect of the deal, though, was that Jackson kept going on and on about how it was a bad idea to do so, making us think, “Oh, maybe Jackson is one of the very few GMs who won’t give Melo everything he asks for” and then, well, he wasn’t one of the very few GMs who wouldn’t give Melo everything he asked for.

    42. Very interesting article at ESPN re: Emanuel Mudiay, a player who so many commenters have negative feelings about for no apparent reason other than that he’s an athletic guard.

      http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/draft2015/story/_/id/12415902/how-does-emmanuel-mudiay-project-next-level-nba-draft

      it’s an Insider article but here’s a short snippet that I thought was interesting:

      And how does he compare to…D’Angelo Russell? Slightly more than half of the NBA scouts and execs I spoke with had Mudiay ranked ahead of Russell as the top guard prospect in the draft. It’s basically 50/50 right now, but Brown doesn’t see it that way at all.

      “They aren’t at all the same,” Brown said. “Russell’s a better shooter. He sees the floor, but he’s not a point guard. He’s just a basketball player. I don’t think you want him bringing up the ball or initiating the offense. I don’t know [if] he could guard the point. He hasn’t had to guard point guards. Defense is such an underrated thing for these young guards. If you can’t guard pick-and-rolls, it breaks everything. I used to tell Mudiay every day, ‘You are going to have guard Russell Westbrook one night and then Derrick Rose the next night. It never stops.’ I used to tease him about that. Point guard is the premier position in the NBA these days. You have to get it done on both ends of the floor.”

      and on that note, an NBA scout said:

      “Defense was a big part of his success early in China,” he added. “He could defend anyone. There’s not a lot of defense in China — which is something that stands out. You tell him to do something, he does it. On side and high pick-and-rolls he’s good at forcing his offensive player down. He can keep a player to the side of the court and keep them over there without them turning. Coaches will love him on the pick-and-roll. He pursues and his hands are active.”

    43. Re: my last post – one of the undercurrents of the D’Angelo Russell thing is that apparently OSU was playing a lot of zone specifically because Russell (and the other guards) couldn’t stop dribble penetration. I think Knick fans know something about that?

      I’m not at all opposed to Mudiay. Big athletic guard that can get to the rack, finish and draw fouls, and apparently can really guard the position. So what if he can’t shoot amazingly well yet – he’s only 19.

      I’m actually thinking I’d like Towns first and then if not him, then get Mudiay. Okafor seems great offensively and I guess it’s not that easy to project his defensive potential, but i’m just so sick of all the one-trick ponies that always seem to end up on the Knicks.

    44. Truth is, free agents wouldn’t sign with the Knicks without Melo, and warts and all, he’s a top 15 player (maybe top 10 – at least, if on a good team).

      I love you guys. Never give up. Don’t ever give up.

    45. For everyone harping on the terrible job Phil has done….it almost sounds like Phil was handed the keys to a Ferrari and turned it into a Kia. Even if we could go back with perfect future knowledge and redo the moves Phil did we would be at best first round fodder playoff loss team. Even though not intended — I think it’s better that we suck and have a chance at a top 3 lottery pick for the first time since Patrick Ewing. We have a star player (overpaid/overrated/flawed) but still a star player. And we have money in the bank to go after top free agents. We have a chance to build a great future foundation for this team. Getting rid of JR/Shump and trading Chandler in his final year are mild touchstones in the arc of time…the roster we end up with next year (the pick, the free agents) will have a much more meaningful impact on this team and mean much more to Phil’s legacy. At that point we can have more meaningful conversations about how much of a genius he is or whether he should be fired…so far nothing meaningful has happened worth harping about.

    46. Haven’t we heard that Melo was going to be a star magnet since he came here? Other than Tyson no near their prime star has come (and he apparently became disgruntled with the whole scene which may or may not have had anything to do with Melo). Perhaps the no free agents is solely a cap thing but somehow I doubt it. At any rate it is as speculative as my notion that Carmelo or pretty much any star other than LeBron has an affect on attracting free agents.

    47. The only reason I am opposed to Mudiay over Russell is that I don’t know shit about Mudiay other than some scout jabber. Not that a year of college is going to prove which guys are going to make it in the pros, but at least I can look at stats for Russell and compare them to other players. Mudiay is the mystery prize. More than anything, I want a big man who plays defense, so I’m philosophically opposed to Mudiay or Russell, but if we get fucked in the lotto I don’t know enough about Mudiay to say we absolutely should or should not draft him. Getting to the rack in China is good and all, but this is a league that Stephon Marbury was killing 2 or 3 years ago.

    48. Does anyone really think Dolan would have hired a GM who would have let Melo walk or traded him?

    49. Melo is the rare type of ‘top’ player who doesn’t make the team better.

      This is bullshit. Melo, when he’s healthy, can make his team better by doing things like making 3 point shots. Making shots makes your team do better. He probably also has some positive effect on his teammates because he still commands attention from defenders beyond just his man (as do lots of other players, just not any players who play on the Knicks). Melo is just not a top player. That, very simply, is why he doesn’t seem to make his team better than actual top players-Melo is not, has never been, and never will be as good as those guys.

    50. One thing in Phil’s favor is that he didn’t go all-out-Isiah and compound his mistakes with more mistakes once the season went south. He did the appropriate thing which is turn relatively on a dime and embrace the tank and the tear-down. Not every GM – even good ones – would have to stones to do that in NY. This is roughly equivalent to SVG cutting Josh Smith, to John Schneider getting Percy Harvin out of the Seattle locker room, etc. Take your losses and make the best of the situation. I would’ve loved to have gotten a 1st round pick out of the Shump/JR thing but we really had very little leverage there – JR was a total head case in NY and Shump is expiring. Just nuts that (salary cap implications aside) Cleveland got the TWO best players out of that 3 way deal and netted a 1st round pick to boot.

    51. Truth is, free agents wouldn’t sign with the Knicks without Melo, and warts and all, he’s a top 15 player (maybe top 10 – at least, if on a good team).

      I love you guys. Never give up. Don’t ever give up.

      +1

      Going to second what THCJ said, not even sure why I should ever post here again. DRed always in there first with a funnier, smarter comment.

      No way, no how, Melo is anything like an elite player going forward.

      I second the idea of drafting someone who can play defense. Been 15 years since we saw any of that around here….

    52. Good to see Owen back. I was surprised you didn’t comment on my master plan to get David Lee back to the Knicks!

    53. Haven’t we heard that Melo was going to be a star magnet since he came here? Other than Tyson no near their prime star has come (and he apparently became disgruntled with the whole scene which may or may not have had anything to do with Melo). Perhaps the no free agents is solely a cap thing but somehow I doubt it. At any rate it is as speculative as my notion that Carmelo or pretty much any star other than LeBron has an affect on attracting free agents.

      Um, let’s review the players that have shunned Melo since he’s been here. Hmm. JR supposedly took a pay cut to come here initially (maybe not). Jason Kidd welched on his contract with the Mavs to the point where Cuban won’t retire his jersey, all in order to play with Melo. Rasheed signed up for the Knicks. What other time did a player turn down the Knicks for even a semi-comparable offer? No way was Pau Gasol coming here for the mini-MLE when he had a 3 year 22MM offer from the Bulls.

      That’s not to say Melo will be able to sell players this summer. But to say that he has no effect? There’s just no evidence for that. As far as I can tell Melo is considered basketball royalty among NBA players.

    54. Very interesting article at ESPN re: Emanuel Mudiay, a player who so many commenters have negative feelings about for no apparent reason other than that he’s an athletic guard.

      Come on, there’s no way you can seriously cite that article as something to sway anyone in favor of Mudiay. The whole article comes down to the scouts saying, “Eh, we really don’t know. He might be really good, he might not be.” Even the positive thing you cited notes that half the scouts are going the other way on the guy.

    55. I dunno – the article seemed to say that he has great physical tools, is a great kid re: personality attributes, has great defensive potential, but that they didn’t have enough tape on him. They talked about him maturing and developing out in China, and how he did so well out there as an 18 year old across the world. There wasn’t really a negative thing said about him other than that he was shooting a bit too much.

    56. I was surprised you didn’t comment on my master plan to get David Lee back to the Knicks!

      What plan is that?

    57. I dunno – the article seemed to say that he has great physical tools, is a great kid re: personality attributes, has great defensive potential, but that they didn’t have enough tape on him. They talked about him maturing and developing out in China, and how he did so well out there as an 18 year old across the world. There wasn’t really a negative thing said about him other than that he was shooting a bit too much.

      Well, the article said that they were planning on replacing him with Will Bynum even had he not been injured, right? But yes, I agree that the article is not negative about him, per se, just that there isn’t anything in there to show that he is a better bet than the other three guys. Saying a guy is the #4 prospect isn’t really being negative about the guy.

    58. While Phil shouldn’t be judged before this off-season, he shouldn’t get credit for opening up cap-space neither, since the knicks would have had max-cap space this off-season anyway, his moves only contributed 2-3 mil to the final count

    59. Im with Frank, I like Mudiay a lot better than Russel. I’m pretty sure if it comes down to russel vs mudiay (we can’t get either big) Phil will take Russel because he is more of a fit for the triangle. If we weren’t focused on the triangle and somehow managed to luck into the #1 pick, i would trade down to philly and draft mudiay and cauley stein(if available). Run back that 4 out offense with melo at the four and make a run at butler/leonard/draymond or just sign matthews and danny green. A mudiay, matthews, green, melo and stein could be a pretty decent team in a couple of years.

    60. Cap Luke, I agree that Phil has done a horrendous job so far. Horrendous!
      There’s nothing indicating that he’s suddenly going to start making great moves, other than he’s Phil ‘Friggin’ Jackson, the genius Zen Master that has pockets full of magic dust.
      The backlash from other commenters here is expected. Anything you say about Melo and Phil will be met with a barrage of personal insults. . . . from people that know very little about basketball.

    61. @JK47 – Thanks for the kind words.

      You know who really “wanted to win”? David Eckstein. He may have only been four feet tall, but he was gritty. Give me a team of nine David Ecksteins over nine A-Rods any day. Sure, the A-Rods would hit lots of home runs, but the Ecksteins would win just by sheer grittiness and knowing how to win. They would be really good at hitting behind the runner and they’d have dirtier uniforms than the A-Rods. Because Eckstein wanted to win.

      You bet – in a school yard game, amongst guys without super-human skills, yeah, I’ll take little David Eckstein on my team everyday. . . . and he’ll kick butt.

      It’s not the guys that are the tallest, run the fastest or jump the highest that are the best players.

      The best players are athletically gifted, play smart, and have a superior fierce competitive spirit.
      Sure, everyone wants to win – but to different degrees.
      ‘Imposing will on an opponent’ is a commonly heard phrase for good reason – it often decides who the winners are, be it basketball, hockey, football or boxing. It’s the number one intangible. It’s real. But not necessarily visible.

      And of all the people to pick as your poster boy as a winner, A-Rod. A cheat.
      Yeah, that’s how to do it.

    62. Truth is, free agents wouldn’t sign with the Knicks without Melo,
      ————————
      The most likely truth is that no free agent will even think of Melo (one way or the other) when making a decision about his career.

      Melo is a hindrance to signing free agents.
      News flash: Everyone knows Mr. Sticky Fingers doesn’t pass. No one going to want to play with him unless there’s a lot of gold in the pot.

    63. The Chandler trade didn’t really pan out, but it wasn’t a franchise wrecker.

      The Shump/JR trade was kind of “meh,” but at least they moved JR’s contract. Not a franchise killer.

      The potential franchise killer was the MMM contract. That one may really turn out to be a complete disaster.

      The Chandler trade was awful. That trade, along with the Melo signing, set this franchise back at least five years. If Isiah made that trade, he’d have been chastised, justifiably.

      The Shump/JR was another case of getting less than what you’re giving. Phil has a bad habit of that.

    64. The backlash from other commenters here is expected. Anything you say about Melo and Phil will be met with a barrage of personal insults. . . . from people that know very little about basketball.

      Most of the criticisms of Melo are true (to a much lesser extent than you assert them). It’s just tiresome and annoying seeing it posted every single day when he’s not even playing. It’s like you are baiting Ruruland with every post you make but he hasn’t posted in a year.

    65. The Chandler trade was awful. That trade, along with the Melo signing, set this franchise back at least five years.

      The Chandler trade certainly did not set the franchise back at all. He was 100% leaving after this year anyway. This statement is equivalent to “the weight of the driver, along with the truck, caused to bridge to collapse”.

    66. This is bullshit. Melo, when he’s healthy, can make his team better by doing things like making 3 point shots. Making shots makes your team do better. He probably also has some positive effect on his teammates because he still commands attention from defenders beyond just his man (as do lots of other players, just not any players who play on the Knicks). Melo is just not a top player. That, very simply, is why he doesn’t seem to make his team better than actual top players-Melo is not, has never been, and never will be as good as those guys.

      When you’re on a team with a dominant, high usage player that doesn’t give the ball up, a cancer spreads. Players stop moving because they know they won’t get the ball, even if they get open. When they finally get the ball, they’re going up with it because they know they may not see a shot again, for a while. Soon, no one wants to move, or pass the ball. Everyone stands around and watches the hero-baller. When the hero-ball can’t get off a shot, he dumps it to someone with five seconds on the play clock, whose out of rhythm or position to get a shot off.
      Then, the cancer spreads to the defense. It sucks the life out of the team
      Sound familiar?

    67. As tiresome as seeing the same flawed arguments used over and over trying to silence the criticism you admit is legitimate.

      I don’t think there would be any arguments if this criticism wasn’t posted every single day. After 4 years, it just gets old so counterarguments arise.

    68. I was surprised you didn’t comment on my master plan to get David Lee back to the Knicks!

      What plan is that?

      Offer Draymond Green a max contract.
      If/when GS matches, their payroll will be >$100MM and their luxury tax bill will be ginormous, even for a billionaire like Jacob. Offer to take David Lee and his $15.5MM salary for Calderon and his $7.4MM salary, and extract some sort of pick (lottery protected 1st in 2018?) as the price of doing business. That $8MM difference will be worth >$30MM to Jacob taking into account the luxury tax.

      if GS doesn’t match, then having Green on a $15MM contract feels like overpaying but probably isn’t if we believe he has room to improve and considering the coming jump in the cap.

    69. It should be duly noted that today’s criticism is on Phil, not Melo. Tomorrow will be a different day.

      When you’re on a team with a dominant, high usage player that doesn’t give the ball up, a cancer spreads. Players stop moving because they know they won’t get the ball, even if they get open. When they finally get the ball, they’re going up with it because they know they may not see a shot again, for a while. Soon, no one wants to move, or pass the ball. Everyone stands around and watches the hero-baller. When the hero-ball can’t get off a shot, he dumps it to someone with five seconds on the play clock, whose out of rhythm or position to get a shot off.
      Then, the cancer spreads to the defense. It sucks the life out of the team

      You spoke too soon… so close!

    70. Most of the criticisms of Melo are true (to a much lesser extent than you assert them). It’s just tiresome and annoying seeing it posted every single day when he’s not even playing. It’s like you are baiting Ruruland with every post you make but he hasn’t posted in a year.

      I guess it’s okay to embelish Melo’s attributes, but the criticism is unacceptable. Let’s bash Jason Smith ($3.3 M) some more, or Galoway ($500K).
      Like it or not, this team revolves around Melo and his contract. As long as he’s sucking $23 million from the cap space, he’s relevant to the knicks future.
      And you guys can play fantasy all you want, but I’ll continue to speak the truth until everyone eventually realizes it. A team built around an extreme hero-baller making max money can never compete for a title.
      Why hate Starbury, Crawford and Zebo, . . .or JR, and love Melo?

    71. Rebuilding around someone who is more injury prone and older than Melo doesn’t seem viable. Especially since he made it clear that he didn’t want to be a part of a rebuilding team the way he mailed it in last year.

    72. I guess it’s okay to embelish Melo’s attributes, but the criticism is unexpected. Let’s bash Jason Smith ($3.3 M) some more, or Galoway ($500K).
      Like it or not, this team revolves around Melo and his contract. As long as he’s sucking $23 million from the cap space, he’s relevant to the knicks future.
      And you guys can play fantasy all you want, but I’ll continue to speak the truth until everyone eventually realizes it. A team built around an extreme hero-baller making max money can never compete for a title.
      Why hate Starbury, Crawford and Zebo, and love Melo?

      Have you ever seen anyone on this board post that the Melo signing was a good one? I haven’t. We are all just hoping it doesn’t turn about to be as bad as STAT’s signing (which gathered much less criticism).

    73. The Chandler trade certainly did not set the franchise back at all. He was 100% leaving after this year anyway. This statement is equivalent to “the weight of the driver, along with the truck, caused to bridge to collapse”.

      Most teams are willing to take on a guy for one year, feeling they can re-sign them (Love, Rondo, Dragic). Yet, we already had Tyson, and Phil is supposed to be the great zen healer that can get the world’s greatest egos to play well together. Why couldn’t Phil convince Tyson to taste his magic and stay?
      Even still, he could have got a lot more for Chandler (see Love, Mozgov)
      Instead, he got a player in return that he’s trying to unload.

    74. Zero evidence. Once again. Chandler has been vilified -but the evidence for the accusations is nowhere to be found.

      “I definitely don’t want to waste any seasons. I didn’t want to waste this season. I’m not into wasting seasons,” veteran center Tyson Chandler said Tuesday.

      Chandler was asked about the Knicks’ plan to wait next season out and try to contend in 2015.

      “I’ll cross that bridge when it gets to that point,” he said. “I hope that it’s not that situation.”

      “Your time is too short in this league, and I want to win a championship, another one,” Chandler said. “I’m not into wasting seasons.”

      While it’s not him 100% saying he won’t resign. I would still consider this more than “zero evidence”.

    75. Even still, he could have got a lot more for Chandler (see Love, Mozgov)
      Instead, he got a player in return that he’s trying to unload.

      He could’ve gotten more for Chandler. I didn’t like the trade either. It just isn’t in the same realm as the Melo signing in terms of setting the franchise back 5 years.

    76. Especially since he made it clear that he didn’t want to be a part of a rebuilding team the way he mailed it in last year.

      The more widely spread reasons for Tyson leaving was because Melo / CAA wanted him out.
      Tyson wanted win and was nauseated with the Melo/Woodson regime.

    77. The amare contract did not receive the same amount of criticism (at the beginning) because it was the first time the Knicks made the mistake with Amare. Melo, like amare, was generally welcomed to NY. You probably read the favorable reviews on this board.

      Ahem. There were many people on this board, or at least a few brilliant minds, who thought it was a terrible contract. It was never good, but its awfulness was confirmed rather quickly.

    78. Melo’s contract is the second time we hit our head against the same rock. Some people say no pain no gain.

      Yes, and that is why nearly everyone on this board was against the contract.

    79. Have you ever seen anyone on this board post that the Melo signing was a good one? I haven’t. We are all just hoping it doesn’t turn about to be as bad as STAT’s signing (which gathered much less criticism).

      Short memory you have. I was one of very few here criticizing that contract upon it’s signing, though a few others said they would have let him walk. The chorus was, we had to offer Melo the max to keep him.

    80. When you’re on a team with a dominant, high usage player that doesn’t give the ball up, a cancer spreads. Players stop moving because they know they won’t get the ball, even if they get open. When they finally get the ball, they’re going up with it because they know they may not see a shot again, for a while. Soon, no one wants to move, or pass the ball. Everyone stands around and watches the hero-baller. When the hero-ball can’t get off a shot, he dumps it to someone with five seconds on the play clock, whose out of rhythm or position to get a shot off.
      Then, the cancer spreads to the defense. It sucks the life out of the team
      Sound familiar?

      Sure, I’ve been reading nonsense like that for years. The number of passes an offense averages does not correlate to offensive efficiency. Some offenses score efficiently with lots of ball movement (last seasons Spurs). Some do not. The Woodson Knicks were iso-heavy and had consistently good to great offenses featuring one Mr. Anthony as the heavy usage, ball stopping focal point.

    81. He could’ve gotten more for Chandler. I didn’t like the trade either. It just isn’t in the same realm as the Melo signing in terms of setting the franchise back 5 years.

      I see, you now admit it was a bad trade, just arguing about how bad it really is.

      To his credit, Phil himself admitted his failure, but you still defend him.

    82. Yes, and that is why nearly everyone on this board was against the (Melo’s) contract.

      That’s an outright lie!

    83. The Knicks should be a top 10 offense, and I think the defense should be improved over last year when they ranked 24th.

      I agree with this. If we can just be a league average defense that would be a major boost.

      Oh, I think we’re 10 games better swapping Calderon for Felton.
      That will make Melo better.
      It will make stat better.
      It makes our three point and PnR better.

      Melo and Stat really figured out how to play together. If Stat can be the guy he was over the last 22 games, we could be dangerous. You know he’ll be fit for the season. I believe in Stat

      These in no way suggest that these commenters thought that signing Melo to his current contract was a good idea. They are just statements about how well they think the team will play. These statements could have been made if Melo had signed for 124 million or 80 million (the latter being a good signing).

      I, for one, am glad to have Melo back. He is coming back to win and I think this team is underrated – even by those here.

      …you got me there

    84. hoola hoop and captain luke – you both are doing God’s work. I would join in to help you two but you seem to have it under control.

    85. I also agree with the comment that in 2-3 years Phil will resign (with a nice buyout) due to health reasons. He is not in this for the long haul which really really worries me about the 2015 pick. I DO NOT want him trading that pick for a win now player.

    86. Jowles,

      Calderon and Dalembert were solid WP players last year and additionally we got some 2nd round picks and a young prospect in Larkin. I highly doubt you thought trading Chandler for that haul was a poor management move given your previous citation of WP.

      Also for those saying we didn’t get enough for Shump and JR you’re kidding yourself. JR admitted he had trouble being fucking sober while he was in New York and we all bitched and moaned about his contract, attitude, production and decision making. Shumpert has been some high potential player that duped a number of us including me especially after the start to this season, but he sucked ass after that. Both of their numbers have come down to match their New York levels for the most part with an uptick in their TS% on the virtue of only shooting 3’s as a spot up shooters in Cleveland’s innovative stand around and watch Lebron/Kyrie isolate offense.

      The Chandler trade is the one trade Phil’s made where I think it’s totally understandable to criticize him in retrospect, if only for the Calderon contract. We actually are setup now to have a first and second in 2017 and a first and two 2nd’s in 2019. Nothing spectacular, nothing great, but adding picks to this franchise’s depleted coffers IS a step in the right direction, no matter which round, for the Knicks. The one defense of the Chandler trade is that he’d probably have sucked in the Triangle on top of being pissed playing for a team with zero possibility of a title and potentially mailed in another season so I doubt his trade value was going to get better. The biggest mistake with regards to Chandler was not trading him last year when he almost certainly would have garnered more.

      The TPE in the Chandler trade was used to acquire Shved which helped in getting two more 2nd round picks for us fwiw and Phil has gained a net of four 2nd round picks since he’s been here.

    87. “And while I’m at it:
      Felton is going to bounce back with a much better season. He’s another guy that doesn’t suck as much as everyone thinks. Shit coach. Shit system. Brings out the worst in everyone except his pet shooter.”

      -hoolahoop, July 15, 2014

      And you want to be my GM.

      This shit is simple, but it isn’t easy. Phil fucked up in a huge way with the Melo deal, but I think his other moves have been reasonable, even if they haven’t all worked out.

    88. Felton’s just in a shit system again with another shit coach. Not his fault he’s 450 pounds overweight.

    89. I want to point out that Phil traded his players not to win on the talent level. He was looking to build a team culture. So he got Calderon not because he thought it was good for competing this year, but because he thought it was good for team while his contract lasted.

      I am not sure if team culture trumps talent. But sure we have seen some talented teams go south because of bad chemistry (the Lakers with Dwight Howard, for example). You can only have so many headcases under control… and things have to go right to do so. The Spurs can afford to bring Diaw because they already had a strong leadership. The knicks could afford to have JR because they were winning. Maybe the first step is having a team culture, and then you worry about ‘winning’ trades.

    90. I think everything Phil has done to date has been bad enough to be called indefensible except the Prigioni deal (which was OK or good). When you are defending moving a top level C (who everyone knows was hurt last year) for average players like Calderon and Dalembert, 2nd round picks, and filler, just to move Felton 1 year earlier, you are seeing things through rose colored glasses.

      Same thing with JR and Shump.

      Getting cap space is a good strategy, but when you are giving away real assets to rush things along one year when everyone on earth knows you aren’t going to contend next year anyway, you are taking a short term view.

    91. What the hell were you going to get for JR? He was a negative asset and instead of netting the 2nd round picks we would have got for Shump, whom it seems the Knicks decided was not worth what he would get this summer, he packaged him with JR to move them off the books. Also we have a better record without those guys than we did with them so for however good they were they actually kind of suck.

      Oh and the Knicks did actually get a 2nd rounder out of that deal albeit one in 2019.

    92. Chandler was not coming back. He’s going to want, and get, too much money for an injury prone 32 year old center on a rebuilding team. Chandler is a top level center, but he’s one for win now teams. We are not a win now team. We really should have traded Tyson last season when we could have garnered a better haul for him because the team trading for him would have had him for 1.5 years and it was just as obvious last year that we needed to blow this shit up. And yes, we probably could have got more for Tyson if we traded him mid-season, but as we also all know, Tyson gets hurt a lot. If Tyson got hurt, then we wouldn’t get shit for him. To me that makes trading him pre-season reasonable. Tyson had a one year, relatively expensive deal, was declining, and like 4 people on this board viewed him as a top level center this offseason. He was an oft injured, immunodeficient, bus-throwing-under malcontent who only dunks on offense and doesn’t try on defense anymore.

    93. Man I was hoping there would be a new topic today. Alas I’ll try again tomorrow.

      I really tried to work Tom Hanks into the discussion.

    94. The best thing that could happen right now is to not bite on captain luke or hoolas ridiculous baiting. James Dolan has mangled the psyche of this fan base so badly that we’re stuck with hoolahoop extolling the will to win that carmelo apparently lacks on an analytics board.

      Jesus.

    95. “He was an oft injured, immunodeficient, bus-throwing-under malcontent”
      “And you want to be my GM.”
      “Sure, I’ve been reading nonsense like that for years.”
      “I really tried to work Tom Hanks into the discussion.”
      Wow, on a roll today. Keep up the good work…

    96. Like just the fact that captain luke compared pj unfavorably to Isiah and Layden is so laughable that it serves as incontrovertible evidence that he should be aggressively ignored.

    97. Hoola’s entire existence on this board can be summed up in the phrase: “he’s not even wrong”

    98. “And while I’m at it:
      Felton is going to bounce back with a much better season. He’s another guy that doesn’t suck as much as everyone thinks. Shit coach. Shit system. Brings out the worst in everyone except his pet shooter.”

      -hoolahoop, July 15, 2014

      And you want to be my GM.

      Felton missed almost the entire season with an ankle injury he sustained during preseason, and has played in only 14 games, the first one being only one minute.
      I may be alone, but still he was going to play a lot better than he did last season.

    99. Felton’s just in a shit system again with another shit coach. Not his fault he’s 450 pounds overweight.

      I’m no big Ray Felton fan, but again, you don’t know what you’re talking about. He’s been out with an ankle injury all season.

    100. Felton missed almost the entire season with an ankle injury he sustained during preseason, and has played in only 14 games, the first one being only one minute.
      I may be alone, but still he was going to play a lot better than he did last season.

      Yes you’re alone in thinking Felton’s improvement matters. Felton fucking sucks at basketball and he’s fat ass piece of shit that can’t shoot, finish at the rim or be bothered to even attempt to fight over a screen.

    101. Man I was hoping there would be a new topic today. Alas I’ll try again tomorrow.

      Bye.

    102. he packaged him (Shump) with JR to move them off the books. Also we have a better record without those guys than we did with them so for however good they were they actually kind of suck.

      With that type of logic, take a look at Cleveland’s record since the trade.

    103. With that type of logic, take a look at Cleveland’s record since the trade.

      In that case they also had this Lebron guy come back from an injury that slowed him down all year, but yeah tell me more about how the Knicks are really missing JR and Shump’s tremendous two-way impact.

      If only we had kept Felton right?

    104. He’s been out with an ankle injury all season.

      This is simply not true. Felton is not hurt. He has been on the Mavs bench every game I watched recently and box scores confirm he hasn’t been inactive since Christmas. He just takes a DNP-CD every game because he’s Ray Felton and he fucking sucks.

    105. You can divert the conversation to making it sound like I’m saying Felton is a great player, but the facts remain.
      Phil has done a horrendous job so far. Initially, I liked the idea of getting him to run things and I hope he turns it around, but let’s not make believe he has not been a terrible GM, so far. Turrible.

      Melo, on the other hand, I knew was going to be a train wreck. We had a lot of young guys and flexibility to build a really good team. Since he’s been here, he’s done what he’s always done.

    106. This is simply not true. Felton is not hurt. He has been on the Mavs bench every game I watched recently and box scores confirm he hasn’t been inactive since Christmas. He just takes a DNP-CD every game because he’s Ray Felton and he fucking sucks.

      Wrong again.
      Felton made his debut for the Mavericks on December 28 against the Oklahoma City Thunder as he played just over a minute of action and recorded no stats in the 112–107 win.

      Enough about Felton. I don’t care about Felton.

    107. Feltons a good player because he has the will to win. Ignore the single statistically abover average season he had. You thought all that complaining was because he always thought he was fouled when he wasn’t? Those gun charges? Threatening his wife? All of that is about THE WILL TO WIN.

    108. Felton made his debut for the Mavericks on December 28 against the Oklahoma City Thunder as he played just over a minute of action and recorded no stats in the 112–107 win.

      Like I said, he hasn’t been inactive since Christmas. Before that he was hurt. The last 2+ months? Not hurt.

    109. Felton is like a fat David Eckstein. GRITTY.

      I know David Eckstein. You, my friend, are no David Eckstein.

    110. Feltons a good player because he has the will to win. Ignore the single statistically abover average season he had. You thought all that complaining was because he always thought he was fouled when he wasn’t? Those gun charges? Threatening his wife? All of that is about THE WILL TO WIN.

      I laughed at that. After reading an entire thread where two guys attempted to climb up onto a cross, that laugh was well placed. Well done sir.

    111. Jowles,

      Calderon and Dalembert were solid WP players last year and additionally we got some 2nd round picks and a young prospect in Larkin. I highly doubt you thought trading Chandler for that haul was a poor management move given your previous citation of WP.

      You are absolutely right, but I do see Chandler as the centerpiece of a championship team (which he absolutely was), not a trade piece to be used for marginal improvement (or, in that case, a marginal downgrade).

    112. In other news, we have a good chance to pick up a game on 2nd place (or 29th, depending on your perspective) Minny tonight as we play a resurgent Indiana team and they play the free falling Nuggets.

    113. Its SOOO easy right now to crap on Phil and this organization bc we’re losing. And it sucks because anyone who disagrees can’t really say anything till this summer. So we just have to be patient. But the doom and gloom is annoying, especially since its every single day. Why not talk about the merits of who we might draft? Or talk about who we should pick up in Free aGency that we think is getable?

      This x1000. Everyday it’s the same thing.

    114. Shumpert and Chandler were assets. No one can argue with that.

      We traded both of them away for way less than they were worth in order to move JR Smith and Raymond Felton one year earlier. No one can argue with that.

      We could have just kept Felton and JR for one extra year (we won’t be serious contenders next year anyway) and then they’d be gone the following year for nothing.

      The only way what we did makes sense is if Shumpert and Chandler were worthless to other teams -which is definitely not true OR if there was a free agent available next year that we absolutely had to have and we needed the cap space immediately.

      We should have suffered through Felton and JR Smith for one extra year and traded Shumpert and Chandler for legitimate long term assets like first round picks. Then in 2 years Felton and JR Smith would be gone, but we’d have solid picks to help improve the team timed closer to when we may actually be a very good.

      All we did was give away 2 solid assets to accelerate the cap space. Short term thinking.

    115. Guys going all out today with the semi-famous quotes today. First, DRed channels Seinfeld and now Hoola goes Lloyd Benson on us. Impressive work.

    116. Shumpert was and is not an asset as an expiring contract and entering restricted free agency this summer. You’re dreaming if you think he was returning anything more than a couple of 2nd rounders.

      Yeah the Knicks should have just suffered another 2 years of Felton and JR being shitty teammates and completely unprofessional off the floor. This is absolutely ridiculous logic.

      You are absolutely right, but I do see Chandler as the centerpiece of a championship team (which he absolutely was), not a trade piece to be used for marginal improvement (or, in that case, a marginal downgrade).

      Good luck trying to convince that center piece to stick around for a rebuild after this year. It’s not like the Knicks had Chandler locked up for the next 3 years. I already said the haul they got in retrospect was poor and Phil deserves criticism for that, but the Knicks did have to trade him or face losing him for nothing. That they used him to dump Felton’s contract obviously impacted what they got back for him.

    Comments are closed.