Knicks Morning News (2015.01.16)

  • [New York Daily News] Knicks blown out by Bucks in London (Fri, 16 Jan 2015 03:47:08 GMT)

    In case any shred of doubt remained, the Knicks are bloody dreadful on any continent.

  • [New York Daily News] Knicks Insider: Amar’e sees limited minutes (Fri, 16 Jan 2015 03:46:18 GMT)

    Amar’e Stoudemire lasted only eight minutes in his return to the lineup.

  • [New York Daily News] NBA commissioner Adam Silver confident of Knicks turnaround (Fri, 16 Jan 2015 03:36:16 GMT)

    NBA commissioner Adam Silver believes the free-falling Knicks “are in good hands.”

  • [New York Post] Why NBA commish is so confident NY All-Star Game won’t be a bust (Fri, 16 Jan 2015 02:43:32 -0500)

    LONDON — NBA commissioner Adam Silver said he's not worried All-Star Weekend will be a bust next month in Brooklyn and Manhattan because the two locals teams are experiencing dreadful…

  • [New York Post] Why refreshed Carmelo is resisting ‘the easiest thing to do’ (Fri, 16 Jan 2015 00:35:39 -0500)

    LONDON — Prince Harry would have been proud. Anthony said his knee and body felt very good after his two-week break and said he wants to be there for the…

  • [New York Times] LeBron’s Cavs Hold Off Kobe’s Lakers, 109-102 (Fri, 16 Jan 2015 07:56:20 GMT)

    Kobe Bryant and LeBron James traded hugs, big shots and verbal jabs all night with warmth and humor. In the waning minutes, they went head-to-head in yet another entertaining duel between two of this generation’s greatest talents.

  • [New York Times] James Harden Has 31 Points, Rockets Beat Thunder 112-101 (Fri, 16 Jan 2015 04:00:08 GMT)

    James Harden scored 15 of his 31 points in the Houston Rockets’ big first quarter in a 112-101 victory over the Oklahoma City Thunder on Thursday night.

  • [New York Times] Bucks 95, Knicks 79: Knicks Cross Ocean to Get Nowhere (Fri, 16 Jan 2015 02:07:32 GMT)

    The game was played on a different continent, but the result was the same: The Knicks were hammered, falling to 5-36.

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    Mike Kurylo

    Mike Kurylo is the founder and editor of KnickerBlogger.net. His book on the 2012 Knicks, "We’ll Always Have Linsanity," is on sale now. Follow him on twitter (@KnickerBlogger).

    82 thoughts to “Knicks Morning News (2015.01.16)”

    1. Same as it ever was….only worse. This team is lost.
      I get the feeling Phil doesn’t know what he’s doing. He doesn’t seem to have a coherent strategy that he has the ability to execute. The Melo contract was an instant disaster. The Tyson trade was terrible. They’re playing the wrong guys. Melo is calling the shots on his when he feels like playing or not, based on his brand. The triangle is a wreck, and probably inappropriate to implement. etc. etc. etc.

    2. I watched OKC-HOU last night. Harden was actually playing aesthetically pleasing ball in the first half. And speaking of poorly run franchises that don’t know what they’re doing, OKC lost by 11 points in a game in which reigning MVP Kevin Durant was 8-12 from the field for 24 points and Dion Motherfucking Waiters took 16 shots from the floor, scoring 16 points (to be fair to Dion, he did also manage to coral a rebound in his 32 minutes of playing time). Durant is going to force a trade or walk to a better team and OKC isn’t going to win shit for a long time.

    3. Honestly(be gentle guys) I was kind of on the Waiters bandwagon before this year. You can see what people see in him – he was a good catch and shoot shooter last year, and he has a decent ability to get to the basket. I convinced myself that it would be easier for him to stop doing the stuff he does really badly than it would be for another, less talented player to start doing some of what Waiters does well. I figured putting him on a better team, with a lot more shot creators, and if he just focussed on taking the best half of the shots he took before he could be okay. But man, watching him play more this year has been an eye-opener. That guy is awful.

      And what I will never understand is how OKC managed to talk themselves into him after he was such a disappointment for the Cavs this year. All the arguments you could make about how he could fit in and accept being a role player on a more talented team had already been falsified and yet they still gave up a 1st rounder for him. I have no idea what they were thinking.

      Hollinger playoff odds has them under 20%, which is probably too low since my understanding of how it works is that their estimated talent level is based largely on what they have done to this point this year, but still they’re in real danger. 47 or 48 seems very manageable for Phoenix, to get to 50 OKC needs to go 32-12 the rest of the way. They’re certainly capable but it won’t be easy.

    4. OKC has a terrible coach. Hes been bailed out by KD,Westbrook, Ibaka and Harden for years. He literally runs no plays. Its amazing.

    5. @2 – I’m not convinced yet. It seems that when things didn’t turn out as expected (expected means we would have 15 wins instead of 5 at this point) PJ did the courageous thing and started to blow it up. I know that a lot of you think he needs to jettison Melo too but I’m guessing that Phil wants something to attract free agents. I hope that there are other fire sales in the works. Pablo and Calderon are useful assets he could trade for draft picks to teams that need a backup point guard. Stoudemire might be an attractive asset for a team that needs scoring off the bench.

      Yes. I’m pissed that this season is a complete disaster. I’m old and have suffered a long time and this team is unwatchable and that sucks. But at this point I would rather they lost every game and got a top-4 pick in the draft.

    6. I’d love to watch Waiters and Melo play together on the same team . . . just not the knicks.
      They would rip the ball in half to get their shots.

    7. Kevin Durant’s TS% this season is 65! Why are you trying to trade for Dion Waiters and Brook Lopez?

    8. I’m old and have suffered a long time and this team is unwatchable and that sucks. But at this point I would rather they lost every game and got a top-4 pick in the draft.

      Well for once, you will not be disappointed.

    9. That was very disappointing, I have to convince myself that this is the plan , to wear a clown suit all night.

    10. PJ did the courageous thing and started to blow it up.

      I don’t really get painting the move to blow things up as “courageous”. We’re on a 3-35 streak here. Just to make sure that registered, 3-35.There is no decision other than to blow it up. It’s already blown itself up. And so far he has made one trade which jettisoned two players, one of whom was a free agent after this year and the other who was hopefully opting out after this year. I’m not really seeing this as a bold change of direction.

    11. While JR will surely opt out if he keeps on playing like this in Cleveland, no chance in hell he’d have opted out if still in NY.

    12. @11 – Yeah. But that is now. And to say that “there was no other choice” gives Dolan and prior GMs too much credit. This should have been done by Isaiah, Checketts and a lot of others a long time ago. When have the Knicks ever done this?

    13. Well, it looks like I’m going to have to adopt a 2nd team to root for to care about this NBA season. Ever since Curry joined Golden State they’ve been one of my favorite teams to watch. They’re just a fun team, esp when they were underdogs. In the East, I think the Wizards are a fun team to watch. If New Orleans could make it to the playoffs would be fun to root for those guys too. Who you guys got?

    14. @6 stat is untradable, no contender can move enough salary to take him, he will either be waved or expire.
      I don’t see many teams lining up for jose and pablo and you wouln’t get a first for either

    15. @14

      I was a huge Tyson fan when he was here, especially in that wonderful 2012-2013 season. I wore my Chandler #6 shirt every time I would 3rd-party stream the games (lol). He also was a stud on my fantasy basketball squad that season. I will always root for Tyson because he is a high-character winner in my book and I honestly think our organizational and cultural dysfunction just wore him down to the studs. So go Mavs! Also am a big Harden fan (always a fan of awesome southpaws like myself, e.g. prime CC, Pettite, Big Unit) so go Rockets!

    16. @11 – Yeah. But that is now. And to say that “there was no other choice” gives Dolan and prior GMs too much credit. This should have been done by Isaiah, Checketts and a lot of others a long time ago. When have the Knicks ever done this?

      No other Knick GM had things this obvious. The only time it was this clear during Isiah’s reign was when the Knicks didn’t own their top pick. There isn’t a GM in the world who wouldn’t have embraced tanking under these particular circumstances. That isn’t to take away from Jackson doing it. It’s not a knock on the guy for doing it, just that it isn’t all that impressive, either. The choice was made for him by their play. Minnesota did not plan on tanking coming into the season but the same thing happened to them and they embraced it, as well. It’s just too obvious.

    17. I just don’t think things going forward are that bad. A lot of the roster problems we have and lack of talent are bc of years of trading away young players and draft picks for aging veterans. This has been going on since the Scott Layden years. Donnie was the only one who had the courage to clean house for 2 years and even that plan was poorly executed. Anyone who expected Phil to make this a good team this off season was fooling themselves. Jason Smith is a one year rental player on the mini mid level.

      We will have a top 4 pick, maybe the number one pick. Okafor or Towns could be the future franchise player for this team and if that is the case, transitioning post Melo is going to be A LOT easier.

      We have 30 million in cap space, 35 if we can find a way to ditch Calderon. That’s 2 to 3 VERY SOLID NBA players. Everyone is focusing on the top names (Gasol, Aldridge, etc) but the FA class this year is also very deep, which means there will be deals to be made when roster spots start drying up and the initial wave of signings are done.

      Also, we’ll have the full mid level and the mini mid level. That nets you another pretty good player and a role player.

      So that right there is 5 players we can get this off season. Maybe 6 if Phil dumps Calderon and spends the cap space money wisely.

      And of course we look awful but Cole, Acy, Larkin, Galloway even Hardaway…most of these guys are second unit guys. I doubt they are gonna garner huge amounts of money especially when you see how many great FA are gonna be available this summer. If we want any or all of them back, its not gonna cost us a lot of money. Its not like we’re in the middle of Larkinsanity. But the experience of playing against starters every night is gonna pay off for these players down the road. We could be watching the foundation for our second unit.

      Keep your chin up, Knicks fans. If Phil does strike out, Melo will want to be traded so the no trade clause won’t matter.

    18. Also, come on! Melo didn’t play last night bc he’s selfish and only cares about his brand. He played last night bc an NBA game in London is a big deal for the NBA promotion wise and Melo is one of the most recognizable players in basketball the last 10 years. Same with Stoudemire. If you were a fan in London, even with the Knicks sucking, you’d want to see these stars. And the All Star Game is AT MADISON SQUARE GARDEN!!!! All of the big time NBA players are gonna be there that entire weekend. Even though we suck, we need/want Melo to play in the game and represent the franchise.

      He won’t play much (if at all) between now and the all star game and then they’ll shut him down for the season. People need to chillax. If we were an 8th seed right now we’d all be freaking out about how we aren’t going to have a high draft pick this year. Can’t have it both ways people!

    19. We have 30 million in cap space, 35 if we can find a way to ditch Calderon. That’s 2 to 3 VERY SOLID NBA players. Everyone is focusing on the top names (Gasol, Aldridge, etc) but the FA class this year is also very deep, which means there will be deals to be made when roster spots start drying up and the initial wave of signings are done.

      They don’t have $30 million in cap space. They have roughly $26 million in cap space (maybe closer to $27 – it’s somewhere in that spot). A little less if they keep Acy. Tristan Thompson just turned down $13 million a year. $26 million is going to get you less than you think. And that takes into count the fact that the Knicks have no one besides Melo, the first round pick, Calderon, Early (who they think so highly of that they are not even activating him for games so that Lance Thomas and Lou Amondson can get some burn), THJ and Acy. That’s not a team, that’s a joke. They can certainly become competitive next season if they hit home runs with the cap space and a home run with the first round draft pick, but by competitive, I mean playoff competitive. They certainly won’t be real contenders. Then you have to hope that they can sign someone in the next offseason. So now, this is only if they hit a home run on the pick and the 2015 free agent class and a home run in the 2016 offseason (where every other team in the NBA will have major cap room, as well, including legitimate contenders), then they can possibly be real contenders in 2016-17, only then Melo is 32 years old, so you’re going to start to see him decline (if it doesn’t happen already – not a whole lot of 30 year old who have knee surgery without any negative side effects) and then, what, you have three years of a 32-34-year old Melo along with what you got this offeason, the first rounder and the 2016 free agent. Is it a chance? Sure, but so many things have to happen just right just so that they can have a three-year window with a declining Melo that to look at this situation and say, “it’s not so bad” is, well, mistaken. It is so bad. But I guess it is true that it could be worse – the NBA’s Ted Stepien Rule saved the Knicks from not having already traded their 2015 pick (otherwise, it would have been long gone).

    20. @18
      even if you strip this roster down to melo/jose/timmy/early (renouncing everybody and don’t bring any of the young ones back at beginning of the offseason) knicks project to have 26-27 of cap room, depending on their exact drafting position.
      While that’s still a boatload of money it is nowhere near 30 million without ditching calderon.
      Any exceptions (including trade exceptions) have to be renounced if you want to use your cap room.

      That leaves the knicks with (right now) those 26 mil and the room exception (3 mil).

      E: too late i guess…

    21. $30M is not a lot of cap space when you have giant gaping holes at four of the five positions and very few players who project to even be quality backups. The Knicks are probably going to go with the “two or three stars plus dreck” model, and that shit doesn’t work.

      The best hope is that they get one of the four really great prospects in this draft– Jahlil Okafor, Karl-Anthony Towns, Stanely Johnson and Myles Turner– and are able to sign one of the young-ish free agents like Draymond Green, Jimmy Butler or Wesley Matthews, all good two-way players. Hopefully the team will still be weak enough for Melo to start MeloDrama III and demand a trade, with the Knicks getting back a decent young player and a 2016 first-round pick to go with whatever bad salary they have to take to make the Melo trade work. Then you’d have a foundation of something to build on.

    22. Is it really that fucking bad if the Knicks are able to put together a consistent playoff team, but don’t win a championship in Melo’s last years of the deal? How many teams complete a turnaround from cellar dweller to being a champion in 5 years anyways? Most teams take some time to get to that point.

      Look at Dallas they’ve been consistently good with Dirk and kept working the roster around the main parts until they got it right. If all Phil Jackson does in 5 years is create some stability and make this a consistent playoff team that actually has it’s own picks and some developed talent of it’s own years that would be a major organizational success for a franchise that has cashed in it’s chips at the first opportunity for the past 15 years.

      Everybody wants him to have dumped Melo for assets and what not, but why is it such an awful thing to have him as the face of the franchise while you actually build something from the ground up. Melo for right now isn’t bitching and seems to understand that Phil’s plan isn’t going to take place in one summer.

      Phil himself in his presser before the Charlotte debacle stated that starfucking is what this franchise has done for the past 40 years and it hasn’t panned out and that’s not the strategy he wants to pursue.

      Who cares what Tristan Thompson thinks he’s worth? Nobody else other than GM Lebron is interested in him for $13m/yr. There is value every summer in free agency. The Rockets got Ariza for $8m/yr for example.

      Will the Knicks find that value? Will they show patience? I have no fucking clue, but having the same discussion every single day and acting like Phil already maxed out Tobias Harris and spent the rest of his money on Reggie Jackson is tiresome.

      Can we wait at least until the summer before we deem this whole thing an unmitigated disaster?

    23. Is it really that fucking bad if the Knicks are able to put together a consistent playoff team, but don’t win a championship in Melo’s last years of the deal? How many teams complete a turnaround from cellar dweller to being a champion in 5 years anyways? Most teams take some time to get to that point.

      I’m fine with championship contenders. As noted, though, the odds are slim of that even being the case.

      Can we wait at least until the summer before we deem this whole thing an unmitigated disaster?

      I’m only replying to someone saying “it isn’t that bad.” It is that bad. If no one says otherwise, I certainly won’t belabor the point (outside of game threads, of course – game threads are meant for complaining). But people constantly do argue the point, hence the counter being argued.

    24. I’m only replying to someone saying “it isn’t that bad.” It is that bad. If no one says otherwise, I certainly won’t belabor the point. But people do argue the point, hence the counter being argued.

      Why is it that bad? If the only measure of success was going to be measured by being a championship contender within 5 years that’s a measure almost every GM taking over a big rebuilding project has failed at. Riley didn’t win a championship until a decade into having complete personnel control. OKC went to a Finals and hasn’t been back despite knocking 4 consecutive lottery picks out of the park. Even the Lakers last title teams needed to be built over the course of a few years before they actually won a title.

      Are we really going to sit here 5 years from now if the Knicks have 50+ games for 3 years running with their picks in hand and some semblance of normalcy within the organization and sat it was a failure because Phil re-signed Melo and we didn’t win a championship? Maybe losing has lowered my standards, but if we just consistently put ourselves in the ballpark with a shot like we did in the 90’s I can live with that and would call that fairly successful.

    25. Are we really going to sit here 5 years from now if the Knicks have 50+ games for 3 years running with their picks in hand and some semblance of normalcy within the organization and sat it was a failure because Phil re-signed Melo and we didn’t win a championship?

      Again, the odds are terrible for them being championship contenders for three years. That is why it is “so bad” right now. It is not championship or bust. Of course that’s foolish. I’d be thrilled with OKC’s recent success. I was thrilled with the Ewing Knicks. This is not that. This is “there has to be three home runs against all odds plus Melo can’t decline” for them to be realistic contenders. The odds of that are terrible. Hence the future of this team is bleak.

    26. Also, I think someone will give 12-13 million dollars per year to Thompson. He’s basically a glorified role player, but if Cleveland makes the playoffs and wins at least one round everyone on that roster will look better. It takes only one asshole, remember.

      Then again, if we bring here two high character players it can be a start to build something. Matthews and Green are my pipe dream. You can build a winning culture with guys like them.

    27. So Thompson will see big bucks because of Cleveland’s success, but Matthews and Green will both be affordable despite being key players for great teams? Green is lining himself up for a major payday. Matthews is trickier. He’s basically at Ariza’s level, talent-wise and the same age. Ariza got $8 million a year. What’s Matthews going to get? I have no idea. I agree that he is a realistic option. I think he and Knight are real possibilities and I’d be happy with them.

    28. The decision to sign Melo at the lol-not max contract is still bad. But the worst thing (which never made sense) is the NTC.

    29. I’m fine with championship contenders. As noted, though, the odds are slim of that even being the case.

      What were the odds people put on Cleveland being the Eastern Conference champion for 5 years running when they signed Lebron and traded for Love this summer? It could happen, but things almost never work out to expectations.

      I doubt most people thought the Spurs were going to win a title again with Duncan, Parker and Ginobili after they got spanked by Memphis in the first round of the 2010-11 season. Pretty sure most people didn’t think the Mavericks would win a title that year.

      There are soooo many thing that can happen between now and 2019 that could alter the Knicks’ trajectory drastically, especially with the amount of player movement and trade activity under the new CBA. Hell who knows what changes a new CBA will bring.

      Has Phil been amazing at his job so far? No I don’t think so at all, but he hasn’t done anything to hurt the franchise moving forward and I give him some credit for adjusting to the reality of this team sucking ass. This summer he’ll have a very real ability to demonstrate if he’s learned from a year on the job. Until then I’ll wait on passing judgment.

    30. No, no, I said they are my pipe dream. I don’t think they will be attainable unless we dump Calderon. 15mln to Green and 13mln to Matthews might be right.

    31. No, no, I said they are my pipe dream. I don’t think they will be attainable unless we dump Calderon. 15mln to Green and 13mln to Matthews might be right.

      Ah, I gotcha. Yeah, I think you’re probably right. That is nuts about Green but I think you’re right.

    32. Lavor, sorry, but the NTC could be a damage to the franchise. It seriously limits the Knicks flexibility going forward.

    33. Yeah, it is a gargantuan overpay for Green. But you have to start from somewhere, and we are pigeonholed in trying to lure guys with money and only money at this point.

    34. The decision to sign Melo at the lol-not max contract is still bad. But the worst thing (which never made sense) is the NTC.

      Yeah god forbid the guy makes a commitment to the franchise. I know everybody loves to believe that Melo is a blood sucking leech, but he’s been a good soldier so far under Phil, denied the bullshit rumors he wanted out (which Berman himself retracted) and defended Fisher in the media without any real prompting. The NTC to me is more about Phil and Melo committing to each other and to building the Knicks.

      I don’t particularly blame any players for taking a lot of money. I don’t see the owners rushing to throw more money back into the pot.

    35. What were the odds people put on Cleveland being the Eastern Conference champion for 5 years running when they signed Lebron and traded for Love this summer? It could happen, but things almost never work out to expectations.

      I doubt most people thought the Spurs were going to win a title again with Duncan, Parker and Ginobili after they got spanked by Memphis in the first round of the 2010-11 season. Pretty sure most people didn’t think the Mavericks would win a title that year.

      There are soooo many thing that can happen between now and 2019 that could alter the Knicks’ trajectory drastically, especially with the amount of player movement and trade activity under the new CBA. Hell who knows what changes a new CBA will bring.

      Has Phil been amazing at his job so far? No I don’t think so at all, but he hasn’t done anything to hurt the franchise moving forward and I give him some credit for adjusting to the reality of this team sucking ass. This summer he’ll have a very real ability to demonstrate if he’s learned from a year on the job. Until then I’ll wait on passing judgment.

      The Mavericks won 55 games and had major cap assets (the non-guaranteed contract of Dampier, which they used to get Tyson Chandler) the year before they won the title.

      The Spurs won 61 games the year they lost in the first round. If anyone looked at the first round as the determiner of their future over the 61 wins, then that’s foolish.

      Even the Cavs, who are certainly your best case, were only in a position for Lebron to return because they had already amassed so many assets.

      All of those teams had realistic reasons to be optimistic about their futures. The Knicks do not have a realistic reason to be optimistic about the next five years. They certainly have a chance, but it is not a realistic one. I sure as heck hope that lightning strikes at just the right spot, but I’m sure not expecting it. I’m not rooting against Jackson hitting home runs on the cap space and the picks and then the 2016 cap space. I’ll be thrilled if he does it all and the team is great again. The odds are just not in his favor. They weren’t as soon as he decided to build around a 30-year-old mega max Melo (and that’s with things already going dramatically in his favor by his plan to compete for the playoffs going horribly “wrong”).

    36. “No other Knick GM had things this obvious. The only time it was this clear during Isiah’s reign was when the Knicks didn’t own their top pick. There isn’t a GM in the world who wouldn’t have embraced tanking under these particular circumstances.”
      You don’t think that, by now, prior GM’s would have traded Bargs for Josh Smith and JR and future considerations for Lance Stephenson, and Amare and 17 future second round picks for Brook Lopez’s feet and Deron Williams’s ankles in a misguided effort to try to sneak into the 8 seed this year? And I thought that you had been following our Knicks for a long time…

    37. You don’t think that, by now, prior GM’s would have traded Bargs for Josh Smith and JR and future considerations for Lance Stephenson, and Amare and 17 future second round picks for Brook Lopez’s feet and Deron Williams’s ankles in a misguided effort to try to sneak into the 8 seed this year? And I thought that you had been following our Knicks for a long time…

      We’ve certainly had moronic GMs, but no, I don’t think any GM, including Isiah and Layden, would look at 5-21 with a bunch of expiring contracts and the team owning their own first round pick and say “Let’s try to make the playoffs”

    38. All of those teams had realistic reasons to be optimistic about their futures. The Knicks do not have a realistic reason to be optimistic about the next five years. They certainly have a chance, but it is not a realistic one. I sure as heck hope that lightning strikes at just the right spot, but I’m sure not expecting it.

      Yeah the Spurs and Mavs won a ton of regular season games and were eliminated with ease early on in the playoffs. People were expecting the Spurs to blow it up after 2010-11 and nobody picked the Mavericks to win the West the year they won the title.

      Better example would be the Mavericks now. They won 41 games after they blew up the team in 2012-13. They they then signed Monta Ellis and Calderon and became a 49-win 8 seed. They maximized their assets and are now a dark horse in the West because of shrewd player movement. n

      And again my standard here isn’t winning a title in the next 5 years. It’s establishing a culture of normalcy and consistent standards hopefully around some home grown players with our own draft picks in hand.

      The most important thing in this whole project is the draft pick this year. If you nail that it can quickly change what people perceive the trajectory for this team is, so like I said let’s wait until this summer and see how things play out.

    39. Of course I’m willing to see what happens. I’ve followed this team through thick and thin and I’m not going away any time soon. I’m perfectly okay with waiting until Melo leaves in 2023 when this team has a realistic shot of maybe starting to kind of sort of do something. And maybe Jackson will shock the world and hit those multiple home runs and the team will be contenders in 2017. I’ll certainly be here hoping it happens. It just isn’t realistic, though, that’s all. The most likely scenario is that they are not championship contenders for multiple years during the life of Melo’s deal. A tear down wouldn’t improve their odds a whole lot, either, in terms of them being contenders soon (due to their missing 2016 pick), but it would be more likely that they would be contenders for multiple years somewhere around 2018. The Knicks have a huge advantage in the fact that they are in New York. Players will come here if the Knicks just take the time to build a decent young team and then add free agents. They just haven’t actually done that in….well, decades, really.

    40. There seems to be the impression of some posters that this team is pretty similar to Isiah-era teams that made the choice to double down on trying to compete. New Flash: This team is so, so much worse than those teams. We’re 5-36 for god’s sake! I’m not at all convinced that if we were, say, 15-26 (which by the way would put us currently 2 games out of the last playoff spot because the East is bad) Phil wouldn’t be doubling down on trying to make the playoffs. That’s the situation where Isiah, etc. made dumb moves. Not with a team that was even close to this bad, because again, we never had a team that was close to this bad.

    41. There seems to be the impression of some posters that this team is pretty similar to Isiah-era teams that made the choice to double down on trying to compete. New Flash: This team is so, so much worse than those teams. We’re 5-36 for god’s sake! I’m not at all convinced that if we were, say, 15-26 (which by the way would put us currently 2 games out of the last playoff spot because the East is bad) Phil wouldn’t be doubling down on trying to make the playoffs. That’s the situation where Isiah, etc. made dumb moves. Not with a team that was even close to this bad, because again, we never had a team that was close to this bad.

      Precisely. There isn’t a GM alive that wouldn’t be tanking in this scenario. Jackson is just doing what any GM would do. That’s not a knock on him. It’s just not a…whatever the opposite of knock is…on him, either.

    42. I still can’t believe Green would get the max or close to what Thompson turned down. Green’s efficiency has really been on the decline. I realize Gordan Haywood got a max contract with poor scoring efficiency but that was in a larger role for his team and he had previous years of being efficient.

    43. I think $15 million might be stretching it a bit, but I think he’s easily getting $13 million. It’s the youth and him playing such a major role for such a good team.

    44. well, dallas took huge gambles with the calderon/ellis signings, to mirror this knicks would have to look for players that are underperforming, falling out of favour with the league, not everybodys darlings like green and matthews.

      Another two things about the mavs:

      They have one of the two best coaches in the league in RC and they had dirk, who (due to being in a different stage of his carreer) made their reloading THIS season possible by taking a huuuge paycut.

      So while it is unlikely the mavs-scenario is the best outcome I could picture for the melo knicks, but I (as a german = HUGE dirk fan) don’t think the mavs are a serious contender this season or in the future, so this is a 45-50 win first to 2nd round exit scenario..

    45. Thoughts on Draymond Green:

      It really isn’t about his numbers with him, it’s about what he means to the warriors team. He is probably their 2nd best to best (when boguts out) defender and with his versatility an awesome fit for them.
      Thus you need to pay a lot to pry him away from them. You’d have to make him an offer north of 12 mio for them not to match I think and even a 14 mil-contract they could match if the dump lee’s deal, for which they would have a first in this? draft to sweeten.

      I think that any team that overpays for him might be disappointed though, to me he’s only worth that contract if he’s the piece bringing you over the top with a lot of pieces in place (as in GS) not a foundational building block.

    46. Draymond Green is awesome because he is one of the top defensive players in the NBA who is far from a zero on offense. He reminds me a lot of Anthony Mason– thick, muscular 6’7″ forward, incredibly athletic defender, can defend multiple positions, rebounds well for an undersized power forward, good passer, unappreciated coming out of the draft… Very similar players I think.

    47. Are there any Ellis type players out there? I guess maybe Lance but unless the knicks get some picks in return and/or can unload Calderon contract that would not be wise.

      Also, K.J. Mcdanials will be an rfa and on the surface should be a hard pull to get out of philly. Doesn’t he qualify as a player that can be offered a “poison pill” type contract. Is he the player the knicks should take a risk on and is the salary structure Lin/Asik got the only type of poison pill. Is there a “pill” less the $15M in the final year.

    48. Why so glum folks? Last 4 games Travis Wear is putting up 13 and 5 with a .617 TS% in 24 minutes a night- that’s 19.5 and 7.5 per 36. I think we’ve found our building block! But seriously how sad is it that a 4 game run of reasonable play by an end of the bench guy is about as much of a glimmer of hope as we have. The ship be sunk.

    49. reminds me a lot of Anthony Mason– thick, muscular 6’7? forward

      Holy shit…..what a comparision Mase completely slipped my mind. We MUST sign D. Green lol.

    50. @48

      I don’t know if you have to poison pill mcdaniels. The max amount you can pay him as a restricted FA after 1 year in the league is the mid-level exception and I think that might already be big enough of a contract, so the sixers don’t match.

      If you wanted to poisonpill them, the third year would have to be significantly higher (since the 2nd year can only give a 4,5% raise).
      For example you could go:
      5
      5,225
      10
      10,450
      –> cap-hit for the knicks would be 7,6 each year.
      Not a fan of such a contract for a one year guy..

    51. All of those top-tier restricted free agents are going to get max offers. Leonard, Butler, Green. They’ll all get Hayward/Parsons contracts. That’s the way FA is trending, and with the increase in the cap coming in the visible future it’s not going to change.

      If Chandler Parsons played his way into a max contract, Draymond Green has easily eclipsed the criteria. Which brings us to the most important point of all: draft picks are important!! Having Draymond Green doing what he’s doing for $900,000 a year is what has made Golden State one of the best basketball teams ever through half of a season. They are 1st in defense and 4th in offense, despite a plethora of injuries to all of their bigs. The reason they keep winning is because of their depth, anchored by Green, who does absolutely everything on the basketball court well.

      Draft picks matter. Three stars + dreck won’t get you shit. But if you can fill the other slots with young guys with upside on cheap contracts, you’re onto something. Unfortunately, the Knicks don’t have the ability to get those young guys with upside on cheap contracts because they haven’t valued draft picks for over 20 years.

    52. “but no, I don’t think any GM, including Isiah and Layden, would look at 5-21 with a bunch of expiring contracts and the team owning their own first round pick and say “Let’s try to make the playoffs””
      You give Isiah more credit than I do…

    53. IMO, Jackson is strategically doing exactly what the Knicks should be doing. The question is does he value players well enough to put together a team over the next few years that can contend. He’s never done that.

      The early returns are at least suspect.

      1. The Chandler trade does not look very good unless you are very high on the draft picks.

      2. Most of feel that paying Melo this much at this age was an error, especially in the direction we seem to be heading right now where it will take a few years to rebuild.

      3. The Shumpert/JR deal is at least debatable even if fully understandable.

    54. Draft picks matter.

      I agree. There are VERY few good values in the basketball. One of them is a solid borderline star with upside on a rookie contract. If you have 1 or 2 players like that, you are in very good shape. Given that they don’t take up a lot of cap room, it gives you a chance to load up on another legit star and a bench and then have a nice window before you have to pay up. For NY, paying up doesn’t matter. It matters for teams like OKC who have a smaller window because they’ll let someone go to avoid the taxes. Sure, draft picks are kind of crap shoot unless you have a management that is good at valuing talent, but there are teams that have been able to find good value in the draft consistently and then have that bargain contract for awhile.

    55. @54
      “IMO, Jackson is strategically doing exactly what the Knicks should be doing. The question is does he value players well enough to put together a team over the next few years that can contend. He’s never done that.”

      Don’t forget the Jason Smith signing.

      Although he doesn’t matter for the future, that was a terrible player valuation.

    56. FG% 3PT% TS% A RB S TO
      Player A .507 .351 .586 4.3 3.9 1.1 2.2

      Player B .528 .324 .579 4.4 4.5 1.1 1.5

      Player A is Goran Dragic, Player B is Cory Joseph. Dragic will be 29 next year, Joseph will be 24. There will be some good value deals in free agency if we play this right. I’m not very confident we will, but there’s at least a chance.

    57. Anjica is looking good albeit against the sixers. If he could stop fouling so much he might be something. Would be a nice cheap guy to take a flyer on this summer.

    58. FG% 3PT% TS% A RB S TO
      Player A .507 .351 .586 4.3 3.9 1.1 2.2

      Player B .528 .324 .579 4.4 4.5 1.1 1.5

      Player A is Goran Dragic, Player B is Cory Joseph. Dragic will be 29 next year, Joseph will be 24. There will be some good value deals in free agency if we play this right. I’m not very confident we will, but there’s at least a chance.

      I had an eye on him too but he is a RFA so I am not sure if he would be a value deal when a team will probably have to overpay to get him out of SA.

      Also, who was the last player to leave SA to have success. George hill? He has played well but he was putting up 2k+ minutes a year for the spurs. I guess Joseph will reach that for the first time this year.

    59. Draymond Green reminds me a lot of Anthony Mason– thick, muscular 6’7? forward, incredibly athletic defender, can defend multiple positions, rebounds well for an undersized power forward, good passer, unappreciated coming out of the draft… Very similar players I think.

      He is kind of like Mase. But he blocks a lot more shots and shoots a lot more threes. That’s basically Anthony Mason without any holes in his game.

    60. I had an eye on him too but he is a RFA so I am not sure if he would be a value deal when a team will probably have to overpay to get him out of SA.

      Definitely agree, but I think an “overpaid” Cory Joseph might still be underpaid in terms of production per dollar. All depends on what happens with Duncan, Leonard, Joseph, etc, but my point is there are going to be non-max guys who would be good value out there if we’re savvy. If Joseph is only terrific b/c Spurs and he’s just an above average PG, well, there’s worse ways to spend 8 million wiz bucks.

    61. He is kind of like Mase. But he blocks a lot more shots and shoots a lot more threes. That’s basically Anthony Mason without any holes in his game.

      Except that Mase was a much more efficient scorer and a better rebounder and ball-handler/passer as well. Basically Green has played a half a season at the level Mason played at for about 6 years. Green was a terrific glue guy last year but this is the first year his offense has been good enough to really justify a big contract. I’d love it if we were able to sign Green somewhere around 13m but I’d say Mase is his ceiling and he has nowhere near enough of a track record to say he’s there yet.

    62. Yeah, but Green has improved a lot in the past year and could improve even more over the next few years.

    63. Draymond’s advanced defensive stats are off the charts. He is #1 in the NBA in defensive win shares and defensive rating. He’s third in the league in defensive +/- behind Tim Duncan and Andrew Bogut. He is obviously one of the key defensive players on the team that is the best defensive squad in the NBA. This is the kind of dude we need around here.

    64. You really can’t poison pill a contract when the most you can offer the guy is pretty much exactly what his own team will pay, ya know? Green is the only one with a chance, in the sense that GS would possibly not match a max offer, but then you’re giving Green a max contract based on pretty much one excellent year and his youth. That’s a big risk. And then they’d probably still match.

    65. Definitely agree, but I think an “overpaid” Cory Joseph might still be underpaid in terms of production per dollar. All depends on what happens with Duncan, Leonard, Joseph, etc, but my point is there are going to be non-max guys who would be good value out there if we’re savvy. If Joseph is only terrific b/c Spurs and he’s just an above average PG, well, there’s worse ways to spend 8 million wiz bucks.

      Wow, that’s the same number I had in my head. What makes it easier for me is that earlier in the year I would have taken a chance on Reggie Jackson if he was putting up similar numbers so why not Joseph at a much lower price.

    66. Most people is focused on Wesley Mathews but why not Danny Green? Is it more to do with the Spurs and Blazers cap situations?

    67. @the classic poison pill contract can only be offered to RFA that only played 1 or two years for their team, because the team doesn’t have full bird rights just yet

    68. Yeah, exactly.

      Otherwise, in the case of a guy like Green, the only way you can sort of poison pill it is offer him way more money than he is worth and hope that the team can’t afford the cap hit (well, you know, “afford” in the sense of it being too rich for their blood with luxury tax issues). The issue is that for the players who are worth it, their teams will almost always match. I don’t recall a single player not getting matched since the new CBA started.

    69. @the classic poison pill contract can only be offered to RFA that only played 1 or two years for their team, because the team doesn’t have full bird rights just yet

      How were the Rockets able to poison pill Jeremy Lin then? Dude only played 35 games for us in one season.

    70. Brian, what about Chandler Parsons?

      Sorry, you’re right. But even there, they were prepared to match when they thought they were getting Bosh. But yes, that’s a very notable example of the “Sort of poison pill” contract working, as the Rockets didn’t see Parsons as being worth a max deal if they didn’t also have Bosh to pair him with for the super-team.

      The best thing teams have going for them is how much over the luxury cap the Warriors would be if they maxed out Green.

    71. How were the Rockets able to poison pill Jeremy Lin then? Dude only played 35 games for us in one season.

      As he said, it is only when a player has played two years or less that the backloaded contracts apply. And even there, while it seems designed to hurt the original team, it is actually there to help the original team, as there used to be no way for a team to keep a player with 1-2 years in the league if another team offered that player over the MLE. Now there is, provided that you pay the difference in the MLE in the backloaded year of the deal.

    72. I’d willingly give draymond the max i think. It would depend on the availability of other decent/high value free agents like joseph and matthews though.

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