Knicks Acquire Derrick Rose; A Trade Only An Accountant Could Love

Last night on Twitter I was reminded that newly acquired Derrick Rose was a former MVP (I had no idea!), a three time All Star (that many!), and better than any Knick guard from 2016 (you don’t say!). I was accused of being a hater (not me!), and making controversy just so I could write for Bleacher Report (that’ll show those high school bullies!).

Yet when I turn to the numbers, there are so many reasons to dislike this trade. For a scorer, his efficiency has been awful. His true shooting percentage has been under 50% for three seasons, and only once in his career has he been over the league average. Heck even PER, a measure that usually overrates high volume scorers like Rose, is lukewarm on the former Bulls guard over that time with ratings of 9.7, 15.9, and 13.5.

Don't bet on Rose helping the Knicks in 2017.
Don’t bet on Rose helping the Knicks in 2017.

Granted 2014 was a partial year only 10 games played, so it might be unfair to include it alongside the other two. However it brings us to our next point: Rose’s health. He’s averaged 33 games per year over the last 5 seasons, and missed nearly all of ’13 & ’14. To boot, it’s pretty clear that his injury has left him a different player. His averages from ’09-’12 are much higher than his post injury seasons (PER: 19.9 to 14.1, ts% 53.4 to 48.2). So it’s unlikely that Rose will play much, but even if he does he’s unlikely to be anything close to his most productive self.

Next is Rose’s style of play. If the Knicks are running the triangle, the role of the point guard is (to state simply) stand in the corner and make threes. Career-wise, Rose has attempted 31.4% of his shots from under the hoop, followed by 24.0% of long twos, and he’s a pretty bad three point shooter (30.2%). Watch this video of Rose, and you’ll see a lot of screens set for him, which is not run commonly in the triangle. In essence he’s an anti-triangle PG.

So to sum up for next year, Rose may not play much, but if he does he’s likely to be highly inefficient. Additionally if he does, the Knicks would be wise to abandon the triangle, which doesn’t fit D-Rose’s playing style.


OK so if you stuck around this far, you must be a hardcore Knicks fan. So I’ll give you the positives of this trade. First is that Rose’s contract expires next year, whereas Robin Lopez’ lasts 3 more seasons and Grant 4. So by next summer New York will have $16M more to work with (unless they use it this year!). So if you only follow the financial aspects of the NBA, this is a win for the Knicks.

F**K YEAH!
F**K YEAH!

The second positive is RoLo’s departure leaves a 7 foot hole at center, which the Knicks will almost certainly fill with their 7’3″ wunderkind. Unless the Knicks get a high profile center (Dwight Howard?), it’s almost a certainty that Porzingis will be among the starting 5 on opening day. Remember this day as the start of the Godzingis era.

D-Franchise!
D-Franchise!

The third and final upside to this trade is that Rose is likely to be a inefficient/oft-injured player at a position the Knicks don’t have much depth. So it’s possible that the Knicks will finish with a bad record next year, unless Porzingis goes full beast mode. And while another losing season isn’t something I look forward to, a high lottery pick next summer would actually be more beneficial to the long terms prospect of the team than an 8th seed. Yes the Knicks have their own first round pick next year!

So while you’re watching the second coming of Steve Francis on the court (or on the bench in sweats), know that there are some beneficial aspects to this deal. But much like that slow return investment, you’re going to have to wait a year or two to reap the rewards.

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Mike Kurylo

Mike Kurylo is the founder and editor of KnickerBlogger.net. His book on the 2012 Knicks, "We’ll Always Have Linsanity," is on sale now. Follow him on twitter (@KnickerBlogger).

225 thoughts to “Knicks Acquire Derrick Rose; A Trade Only An Accountant Could Love”

  1. Per Woj, CHA wants to give #22 to anyone who will take on either Hawes or Lamb.

    Now THAT is awful management.
    They literally just signed him to a 3 year extension last year.
    And Jeremy Lamb is actually pretty decent. Certainly better than any SG we have, and would only cost $7MM.

    But we don’t have cap space to do that, right? Unless we unofficially do that trade, they pick for us, and we official-ize it July 1?

  2. Before yesterday, I would have said the 3 best moves of Phil’s reign has been signing Lopez to a responsible contract, trading Hardaway for a 1st round pick, and drafting Porzingis. Yesterdays trade completely invalidated two of those moves. How can you now look at those moves as anything other than a mistake, if we just dumped those players for absolutely nothing? I don’t know how you can look at the last three years he has been in charge and judge it any better than a disaster.

  3. We are swimming in cap space now, between the overall rising cap and Williams and Afflalo opting out of their deals. (The salaries of the players in the Bulls trade are more or less a wash.)

  4. I hear where Kevin is coming from, but I just don’t think it’s that bad.

    Lopez is good but does not move the needle. He played way better than we could probably have expected him to last year, and the result was…?

    Is he REALLY going to net a 1st round pick? Probably not.

    Would we rather have him on a responsible contract, or have $60MM to spend in what might be the best free agent class since the Decision? I would say — it’s not totally clear.

    Is the upside greater now for this year than it was 2 days ago? I would say yes.

    Is the downside worse? I would say no.

  5. Is he REALLY going to net a 1st round pick? Probably not.

    Per Woj, Thaddeus Young, who is the same age with the same salary and considerably less productive, is going to land the Nets one. You be the judge.

  6. Frank I think you and I are the only sane ppl here.

    People in the other thread are lamenting how Thaddeus young can fetch a 1 and we couldn’t get that for Lopez!

    Excuse me. We got a #2 and Derrick Rose for Lopez. That’s probably gonna be better than some low 1

  7. Trade for the #22 and Jeremy Lamb RIGHT NOW DAMMIT YOU HEAR ME PHIL?! RIGHT NOW.

  8. Excuse me. We got a #2 and Derrick Rose for Lopez. That’s probably gonna be better than some low 1

    Derrick Rose is awful, so, no.

  9. I’m not an accountant, but I did sleep at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

    This trade is not a good trade, but not nearly as bad as many on the site make it out to be. The real arguments for bad boil down to the question of how much more is Lopez (3yr/14mm) worth than a Bulls 2017 second round pick + Justin Holiday (1yr/1mm). In a vacum, Rose (1yr/21mm) for Claderon (1yr/8mm) + Grant (4yr/2.4m) seems like a wash. What this doesn’t account for is two components of option value that Rose brings to the table.

    There are two options that Rose brings to the table that have some value.
    1) He was better in the second half of last year, is only 27 and may recover a decent portion of his pre-injury game. Not saying this is likely, but it is possible — i’d say 10-20pct probability. In that case he can be signed next year after using up available cap space using bird rights. Put aside the risk that #knicks re-sign him even if sux (so far Phil hasn’t done that).
    2) Some of the Tier 1 FA’s may think of playing with Rose as a draw. We won’t know this until FA is over. If Durant, Batum, Whiteside, or even Conley come and we otherwise couldn’t have attracted them, this trade is a win. It is not a crazy pitch: “Melo+Zinger+Rose+YOU+ tier 1 FA next year = possible championship team in 2017”. Glory of bringing a championship to NYC makes a career.

    Some other interesting thoughts:
    1) If we strike out with the tier 1 FA’s, sign Howard to a 1 year deal (no PO). Howard thinks highly enough of himself that he might just do that. Have a go this year then sign 2x marquee next year.
    2) P.Gasol on a 1 year cheap deal. Rose+ Tier 1 FA + P.Gasol and that team could compete now.
    3) Flip KOQ+CHI 17 2nd for 2016 late 1st or 2x 2nd. Teams with two many picks have to dump.

  10. Excuse me. We got a #2 and Derrick Rose for Lopez. That’s probably gonna be better than some low 1

    Second rounders can almost always be bought, and Derrick Rose is a) terrible, b) unlikely to be on the team after next season, and c) if he is actually on the team after 2016-2017, we’re fucked beyond our wildest imagination.

  11. In that case he can be signed next year after using up available cap space using bird rights

    The Knicks would have to first incorporate Rose’s cap hold of $21 million into their cap space, so there is no benefit to having his bird rights as far as signing other free agents goes.

  12. Is this trade alone a franchise killer? No, not even close. But it does suggest that our front office overvalues awful players with “names”, which is a really really bad sign of things to come, with all the cap space we have coming.

  13. Insane. Derrick Rose and a 2 is better than a low 1. especially if it’s a high 2 which we expect. Haha I can’t wait til all the crow is being eaten on this site. The Knicks are a couple players away from being the 2 seed again next year while still having major flexibility. The same flexibility that was being bitched about for years

  14. Is this trade alone a franchise killer? No, not even close. But it does suggest that our front office overvalues awful players with “names”, which is a really really bad sign of things to come, with all the cap space we have coming.

    That’s why who they sign this year will be a very good indication of what their intentions regarding this trade were. If they give out long-term contracts taking up their whole cap (like longterm deals for, say, Turner and Bazemore), then that’s a pretty good sign that they legitimately think that Rose is good and that’s why they did the deal.

  15. Two things that bugged me about this yesterday, both re. Lopez:
    1. Intangibles. He couldn’t live with his brother because Brook’s cat is an asshole to Robin’s. Plus, he likes to fight mascots.
    2. His productivity / relatively affordable deal. Opportunity cost of sending him elsewhere.

    Then I dug some more. The market for him is smaller than I thought….$14M / year, C only.

    IMHO, the following 17 teams would have NO interest in him right now. Some might if they can unload salary back on us: GS, Cle, SA, Nets, Den, Det if Drummond stays, LAC, Mem, Mil, Min, NO, OKC, Orl, Phil, Sac, Tor, Was).
    Not sure (2) (Pho has Chandler, Por has youth and used to have Lopez)
    That leaves 9 teams (ATL, Bos, Cha, Dal, Hou, Ind, LAL, Mia, UT)
    The following 7 bigs are avail as free agents. All are comps in terms of skill. Some will demand more. but, you don’t have to lose assets for: (Horford, Al Jefferson, Whiteside, Howard, Zaza, Biyambo, Noah). Honorable mention: Mozgov, Speights, Hill, Ezeli)

    My point is the trade value of Lopez’ contract may not have been as great as we thought, unless we wanted to trade him for a G. Once Teague got traded, that narrowed down those options.

    Maybe the best move would have been to keep him, then try to deal him at the deadline next year to a competing team in need of a C due to injury, or whatever.

  16. Insane. Derrick Rose and a 2 is better than a low 1.

    How do you figure? Just about every metric in existence pegged him anywhere from below average to one of the worst regulars in the entire sport last season. The last time he had a TS above .50 was 2011-2012, and he played 39 games that year.

    …and on the off chance he’s actually decent, guess who gets to pay for five years of mega max Rose and his two glass knees?

  17. Brian is right. The q now is, what do we do with our financial flexibility.

  18. @13, well that sucks. I suppose the only value if he plays better than we expect is that we sign and trade him for a Tier 1 player, he turns into a Tier 1 player, or can be convinced to sign for a value contract.

  19. That’s why who they sign this year will be a very good indication of what their intentions regarding this trade were.

    Sure, there is still ample opportunities to make good moves. This offseason and next will determine the success of the franchise for the next 4-5 years. But they just traded away their two best value contracts (other than Porzingis) for a washed up superstar, so what are the odds they do something smart with their cap space?

  20. But they just traded away their two best value contracts (other than Porzingis) for a washed up superstar, so what are the odds they do something smart with their cap space?

    Is more that what they do will show whether THEY realize he’s washed up, as well, but want the $60 million to be available next season. If they just give out one year deals, it’ll show that they’re punting this season.

  21. @18 everything is not ts. Rose’s penetration is sooo valuble. If he keeps getting stronger his drive and kick game will be so great for the team. Phil will pick up some shooters as well.

    Like I said yesterday how do u stop Melo and KP at the 4 and 5 with Roses penetration? How? You don’t think this will be his motivated season of his career? Don’t be slaves to past stats ppl. He was bad last year but he had a broken fucking face for most of the year.

    Rose will be comeback player of the year (if that’s a thing)

    Def 2 seed potential next year. Maybe even 1 seed if Cleveland sleeps through season. Remember me. I’m calling it like Jowels always did.
    I can’t wait to see the team in action.

  22. You don’t think this will be his motivated season of his career?

    That was likely the reason he’s sucked for years now. Not the injuries, nope, just no reason to be motivated.

  23. Well I must admit that I was wrong. I didn’t see this coming, he just tossed away the back court and replaced it. Looks like Holiday is meant to replace Wroten, who I still think will be good elsewhere. Beyond that I’m down to see what happens.

  24. “But it does suggest that our front office overvalues awful players with “names”,”
    My sons just turned 13 years old, so they are smack dab in the demographic that gets excited over “names.” When I told them yesterday that the Knicks got Derrick Rose, my one son made a face and said, “Derrick Rose? Doesn’t he break his knees a lot?” On the other hand, Berman and Isola seem to like the deal…

  25. everything is not ts. Rose’s penetration is sooo valuble. If he keeps getting stronger his drive and kick game will be so great for the team. Phil will pick up some shooters as well.

    If your argument is that Rose’s penetration is valuable in some intangible way that isn’t detected by stats, you’re going to have to explain why the Bulls’ offense was slightly worse with him on the floor this year despite his backup being Aaron Brooks.

  26. The Bulls didn’t have Melo and KP at the 4 and 5. Huge difference. And also rose had a broken face

  27. we gotta holla @ charlotte ASAP for that 1st rounder + Lamb deal. do we need to trade them an actual player? Or can we just hit em with the “cash considerations” or a 2nd round pick?

  28. Rose has not been good. This will be a good change for him to play with Melo and KP who are far better catch and shooters than anyone he’s played with since Korver.

  29. we gotta holla @ charlotte ASAP for that 1st rounder + Lamb deal. do we need to trade them an actual player? Or can we just hit em with the “cash considerations” or a 2nd round pick?

    They can give them a phantom pick, yes. Although the league has been slightly cracking down on phantom picks as of late (but not really – everyone still does it).

  30. Also if the coaches could get Rose to only shoot in the paint that would create a higher ts as well as get the squad to the line more. Something that’s been a slog for years

  31. Then I dug some more. The market for him is smaller than I thought….$14M / year, C only.

    IMHO, the following 17 teams would have NO interest in him right now. Some might if they can unload salary back on us: GS, Cle, SA, Nets, Den, Det if Drummond stays, LAC, Mem, Mil, Min, NO, OKC, Orl, Phil, Sac, Tor, Was).
    Not sure (2) (Pho has Chandler, Por has youth and used to have Lopez)
    That leaves 9 teams (ATL, Bos, Cha, Dal, Hou, Ind, LAL, Mia, UT)
    The following 7 bigs are avail as free agents. All are comps in terms of skill. Some will demand more. but, you don’t have to lose assets for: (Horford, Al Jefferson, Whiteside, Howard, Zaza, Biyambo, Noah). Honorable mention: Mozgov, Speights, Hill, Ezeli)

    My point is the trade value of Lopez’ contract may not have been as great as we thought, unless we wanted to trade him for a G. Once Teague got traded, that narrowed down those options.

    Maybe the best move would have been to keep him, then try to deal him at the deadline next year to a competing team in need of a C due to injury, or whatever.

    Two things:

    1) That he is not a marketable commodity does not mean that he was not valuable to the knicks. We might to have to pay more for similar or worse production: probably Biyombo will be more expensive. (Although we might be lucky and sign Whiteside)

    2) His contract is long enough that there will be chances to trade him along the road, if we wanted to trade hime, that is.

  32. The Bulls didn’t have Melo and KP at the 4 and 5. Huge difference. And also rose had a broken face

    The Bulls had plenty of competent offensive players surrounding Rose. The biggest problem with their offense was, by far and away, Rose himself.

    I’m not sure people are realizing what makes this trade truly awful, which is that Rose playing above expectations might be the worst case scenario. It would almost certainly mean a max contract from the Knicks, and I think any sane human being realizes that would be an awful idea completely regardless of what Rose does this season.

    The more likely scenario involves him sucking, as he has for like half a decade now, and walking for nothing. So for a year of the shitty Derrick Rose show, we surrendered two assets. Nice.

  33. You know, I really don’t know how below market RoLo’s contract really is. How much more money would he make than the $14M AAV he’s going to make in the next three years?

  34. Rose has not been good. This will be a good change for him to play with Melo and KP who are far better catch and shooters than anyone he’s played with since Korver.

    The Bulls’ team 3PT% was .371, the Knicks’ was .346. The Bulls had Moore at 45%, McDermott at 42%, Mirotic at 39%, Snell at 36%, and Brooks at 35%. They were a far better shooting team than the Knicks were this past season, and while Porzingis certainly stands to get better, Melo stands to get worse and we actually lost our best three point shooters in Calderon and Afflalo.

    If Rose’s success is dependent on the Knicks being a good three point shooting team, we’re fucked.

  35. Also if the coaches could get Rose to only shoot in the paint that would create a higher ts as well as get the squad to the line more.

    Don’t be so sure of that. Rose only shot 49% on layups last year and had over 15% of his attempts blocked. His free throw rate has also been pitiful since the injuries, which was really the only thing keeping his TS% respectable when he was good. A Derrick Rose without superb athleticism is really a very poor player (obviously).

  36. This is not a terrible deal by any stretch. It is at worst a meh deal that essentially trades Rolo for cap space in 2017 and 2018. If you want to argue that RoLo is a steal at $14 million per, I’d respectfully disagree. He is a serviceable big that can be easily replaced by guys making less money. Heck, Hernangomez might be better than him next year.

    To lump Roses last 4 years together is a very jaded way of looking at his value. The focus should be solely on last year, where he played 66 games, and missed several games due to a face injury and resting during back-to-backs, as any guy with suspect knees should.

    A Bulls beat writer on Isola’s show this morning said that Rose should have a very good year for us. He had regained lots of his explosion, but was primarily focused on not getting injured again. He and Butler apparently got along much better than the press suggested, but there was tension because they occupied the same role on the floor and kinda got in each other’s way.

    Unlike the Francis and Amare deals, this is a 1-year flier that cost us essentially nothing of exceeding value. Obviously it needs to be followed up by shrewd. cap-friendly deals to replace RoLo (e.g Pau Gasol is still better than RoLo and can be had for cheaper). We dumped the garbage that was Calderon. We traded Jerian for a rotation wing and a 2nd round pick.

    Unlike the Bargnani deal, we didn’t give up a pick or cap space, and Rose actually has a history of being good prior to his injuries. This does not resemble that deal in any way, shape or form.

    Really, I just don’t see any reason for feeling that this trade was anything worse than ho-hum. I’d rate it a B- on its face, but more likely an incomplete, as it is totally contingent on Rose’s performance and whether he helps attract Durant (which would make the deal an A+++++).

  37. Melo hasn’t commented yet on the trade, right? Is he on vacation or something like that?

  38. Heck, Hernangomez might be better than him next year.

    How do you figure…?

    The focus should be solely on last year, where he played 66 games, and missed several games due to a face injury and resting during back-to-backs, as any guy with suspect knees should.

    He sucked.

    A Bulls beat writer on Isola’s show this morning said that Rose should have a very good year for us.

    Ah, ok.

    Obviously it needs to be followed up by shrewd. cap-friendly deals to replace RoLo (e.g Pau Gasol is still better than RoLo and can be had for cheaper). We dumped the garbage that was Calderon. We traded Jerian for a rotation wing and a 2nd round pick.

    Pau Gasol is going to be 36, Calderon was expiring so by no means in need of “dumping”, and we traded last year’s 18th overall pick for a future 2nd rounder and a guy in Justin Holiday who has been waived twice and has never really shown much of anything, at any level.

  39. @41 your only relevant player there was mirotic. I am talking about the 4/5 positions

    Melo and Porzingis were both below league average three point shooters last year. Porzingis might get better, but he also might not, and Melo probably won’t and might get worse. So there’s that.

  40. If your argument is that Rose’s penetration is valuable in some intangible way that isn’t detected by stats, you’re going to have to explain why the Bulls’ offense was slightly worse with him on the floor this year despite his backup being Aaron Brooks.

    They use to say the same thing about Melo in Denver, but his teams would produce all of those plus 500 records and get to the playoffs every year. The inefficiency wouldn’t be a problem until the post season. D-Rose has been on a team that has produced plus 500 records the last 2 years, it’s very arguable that they could’ve had the best record 2 seasons ago, and him missing 14 games is a key reason they missed the playoffs. That’s my argument, that’s what is important, don’t let the numbers create a fantasy reality for you.

  41. I have been watching this debate now for a bit. I’m not as negative as a majority of the voices here.
    1. We all knew Porzingis would make Lopez redundant.
    2. We all knew Calderon was a hindrance, particular at his price.
    3. We all knew after watching him for a year that Grant’s ceiling was probably a sound back up.
    4. We all knew the Knicks needed a backcourt, and with KP and Melo, our front court would be fairly good.
    5. Now, we all also know that getting Rose and losing Lopez, Calderon and Grant was an effort to create cap space next year.
    6. We all know a hobbled Rose is an upgrade to Calderon and Grant.
    7. We all know signing Honacek meant that the team would become more of a pick and roll team, with some elements of triangle, which means no more triangle.
    8. We all know that Phil is still shopping for a PG.
    9. We all knew the Knicks would have no picks this draft.
    10. We all knew the team would struggle as currently constituted.
    11. We all know Rose is a name that puts fannies in seats.
    So knowing all this, the Knicks need to improve through free agency. They have good cap space to work with, and more to come next year.
    This was a sound business decision.
    If the Knicks are able to secure Mike Conley for this season, I think a lot of people would be thrilled.
    The Knicks deserve all kinds of trolling for the way the team has played and how in the past it has been constituted.
    But if you need to rebuild and you lack picks, this is what you do. You give up stuff (check) to get stuff (check) and a better bargaining position (check), while improving as much as possible the product you have on the court (check).

    Rose isn’t what he was, but he is a hard worker and he played 66 games last year. People often take two years to return fully from a knee injury, and this guy had a few. He could improve, physically. He might not.
    But he likely isn’t the only move the Knicks make.

  42. Guys. The best we can hope for from Derrick Rose is a .520 TS%, 8 assists per 36 over 65-70 games played. He isn’t going to magically play at above average efficiency. What makes Derrick Rose so bad is the amount of shots he takes on such a terrible efficiency while bringing very little elsewhere in a box score. If you get that TS% up around .525 and inflate that assist rate in Hornacek’s offense, then you might have an average player.

  43. If you get that TS% up around .525 and inflate that assist rate in Hornacek’s offense, then you might have an average player.

    If that were to happen, we would probably sign him to a max contract…

  44. 6. We all know a hobbled Rose is an upgrade to Calderon and Grant.

    Put me down among those who definitely does not know this. Rose still has some talent and he brings an element of traditional PG penetration that this team was badly lacking last year. But he also takes so, so many things off the table. Calderon was bad last year. He’s bad defensively and offensively he’s extremely limited. But he plays within those limitations. He doesn’t single-handedly lose you games.

    If Rose plays anything like he played last year he will lose many, many games for this team by himself. He’s every bit as bad as Calderon defensively (maybe worse actually) and offensively he’s also very limited, but the difference is he has no idea what his limitations are. He has a 27% usage with a 48% TS. He is going to take and miss shot after shot after shot while being a defensive sieve. Calderon was a zero. Unless Rose really turns things around he will be a big time negative.

  45. I’m hearing this argument from some here that at worst this deal created cap space for next year and beyond. The problem with that argument is that Calderon’s contract expires next year as well. Then when it comes to Grant and Lopez, if you wanted to create cap space with them, why not simply trade them for picks. Instead we’re stuck with Rose now and a year from now we’ll likely just let him walk away. Thus we end up with nothing for two of our decent assets.

  46. Rose has not been good. This will be a good change for him to play with Melo and KP who are far better catch and shooters than anyone he’s played with since Korver.

    RoseBargnani has not been good. This will be a good change for him to play with Melo and KPChandler who are far better catch and shootplayers than anyone he’s played with since KorverBosh.

    Lopez + Grant >>> #9 pick in weak draft (worse trade than Bargs)

  47. Nova, nobody is going to give you a pick for grant right now. He’s just not that good or proven.

    Nobody is going to give you a pick for Lopez unless you take back salary too. Why wouldn’t you just sign Biyombo, or Zaza? spend a little less and sign Ezeli or Mozgov. spend a little more and get Whiteside or Howard or Horford. Lopez has the most value as a Knick.

  48. Durant is a possibility. He’s bffs with Rose and his mom loves Melo and New York.

    Do you think that Noah might sign for less to play with KD, Melo, Rose and KP?

  49. Can someone please give an example of:
    -a team that would trade a 1 now for Lopez, without us taking on $$? where would that pick be?
    -a team that would trade us back a useful guard for Lopez

  50. At this point the most rationale thing you can hope for is that we suck next year, since by sucking we likely ensure:
    1. We get an excellent draft pick in what is supposedly going to be a deep draft.
    2. That we will not resign Rose.
    3. Melo finally realizes the abyss he is in and waives his NTC, which results in us trading him for picks.
    4. Phil either walks away from the train wreck he created or Dolan finally sees the light and ends Phil’s misery.
    Anyway you look at it, another dreadful season is the only glimmer of hope we all have now.

  51. What’s with all this talk about Jose Calderon’s 2015-2016 season being bad?

    He posted a .096 WS/48, a -.1 BPM, a VORP of 1.0, an ORTG of 114, and a DTRG of 109. He was solidly average. We traded away an average player asked to do too much and a good player on a nice contract for Derrick Rose. The only good thing about this trade is that we’re going to tank because we’re going to give lots of minutes to him, and, if he gets injured, we’ll still be just as bad because we’re presumably not spending more money on an actually functional PG.

    Calderon has been better than Rose for the past 4 years. If you don’t see that, you’re pretty much blind.

  52. Yes, it was a bad way to go about grabbing cap space. Okay. Derrick Rose sucks. Okay.

    But we still have a shot at Whiteside, Biyombo, Durant, and Bazemore so it’s not all bad.

  53. While watching highlights of Derrick Rose from this last season, I noticed that almost every time he scored the announcers mentioned “vintage Derrick Rose” or “he’s starting to get his legs back under him”. They’ve probably been saying that for 4 years straight now.

  54. @56 Maybe not a first rounder, but I could see Grant bringing back a 2nd. I think would have been very plausible.

  55. And RoLo is on a fair deal, not a good one. He would have made $14M AAV this summer, too.

  56. Durant’s not coming here, Bazemore is mediocre, Biyombo is nice at the right contract, and Whiteside might be stupid enough to come here, but then we don’t get a good draft pick and still cap out as a routine ECF exit in a weak conference the next few years. I want championships and sustainable growth, not a temporally extended starfuck that gets us nowhere other than merely good.

  57. At this point the most rationale thing you can hope for is that we suck next year, since by sucking we likely ensure:
    1. We get an excellent draft pick in what is supposedly going to be a deep draft.
    2. That we will not resign Rose.
    3. Melo finally realizes the abyss he is in and waives his NTC, which results in us trading him for picks.
    4. Phil either walks away from the train wreck he created or Dolan finally sees the light and ends Phil’s misery.
    Anyway you look at it, another dreadful season is the only glimmer of hope we all have now.

    I actually haven’t heard much about the draft. It’s supposed to be deep? That’s good.

    Anyhow, I generally agree with you, but the issue is that the Knicks still have $30 million or so to spend, so I imagine that there’s a decent enough chance that they’ll have sign enough guys to have a mediocre team. So they won’t even suck enough to get a high draft pick.

    But really, who they sign is going to be such a huge indication of what their thought process is. If they sign guys on multi-year deals, then this was not intended as a way to clear up salary. So I guess we have to hope that they don’t sign guys on multi-year deals, as that would mean that they think Rose is good.

  58. The least you can say is that Phil has been absolutely terrible at garnering value for assets that have some like Lopez, Grant, and Chandler and that’s a huge black mark, given that understanding opportunity cost and assessing the lay of the land of player acquisition are essential skills for a competent general manager in any sport.

  59. For the record I’d be fine with Whiteside, I guess. If sustainable growth isn’t a real opportunity–if the half-assed rebuild/playoff contention is the route Phil is gonna go, might as well go all out and get our collective 2K rating up.

  60. @60 you are being the one blind to it and a slave to the stats. Calderon would not shoot unless there was someone who was at least 10 feet away.

  61. @60 you are being the one blind to it and a slave to the stats. Calderon would not shoot unless there was someone who was at least 10 feet away.

    And Derrick Rose would shoot whenever he a defender draped on him, from the midrange, at a worse percentage. All you’re saying is that Jose Calderon took good shots. Your point?

    Being blind to stats is being blind to facts: they only record what, you know, actually happened on the court

  62. @60 you are being the one blind to it and a slave to the stats. Calderon would not shoot unless there was someone who was at least 10 feet away.

    I’d rather have that than a player who shoots when there is 2 guys all over him at a worse efficiency than his way cheaper clone who they dropped (Wroten).

  63. A slave to the stats.

    That could be the new name for this website.

    Players, coaches and systems come first. Stats follow.

  64. don’t forget that Calderon couldn’t guard anyone, whatsoever, and is only getting older. if you look on these boards pre-trade, the only positives you see about him were that maybe he will be productive off the bench in limited minutes.

  65. don’t forget that Calderon couldn’t guard anyone

    Guess who else can’t guard anyone

  66. For the record I had been pretty positive about most of what Phil had done for the Knicks so far as GM. He certainly made his mistakes, but overall I believed in what he was doing. Made a great pick with Zinger, didn’t squander any future draft picks and overall brought in high character guys and seemed to be changing the culture of the team. Those feelings have now changed 24 hours ago, with this trade. With this trade he essentially wiped out all the good he had done. Not only is Rose a shell of his former self, but also a guy looking at assault charges. That on top of just giving away assets. Again as others have already said, this is about opportunity costs and properly valuing assets. Unfortunately, based on this horrendous trade, this is a concept he does not grasp. It makes me sad to write this, but it is time for Phil to go.

  67. LaMarcus Aldridge’s WS48 rose 30% last season after moving from Portland to the Spurs. Did he suddenly become a much better player?

  68. 70 & 71
    NBA players need far less space then us normal folks do at the YMCA. Caldeeons value is a spot up shooter. He literally does not do another thing on the court. So if he’s not gonna shoot it, unless he’s unrealistically onen why is he out there?

  69. People are making this way more complicated that it needs to be by speculating about the future. We don’t who will be available and willing to sign with us in the future. We know the current values of the players and their contracts.

    IMO, building a team is a lot like building an investment portfolio. Hinkie was the one guy that really understood that (and will ultimately be proven correct if they don’t screw up the assets he accumulated in Philadelphia). The idea is to accumulate undervalued assets, shed overvalued assets, and roll undervalued assets up into higher quality undervalued or fairly prices assets when possible.

    Using that model of thinking, the Knicks gave up 1 attractive undervalued contract (Lopez) and 1 good contract with upside (Grant) for a broken down placeholder on a bad expiring contract.

    If you consider a fair value contract to be worth $1, the Knicks essentially gave up $1.25 (because Lopez is undervalued at his salary in this market) to get back about 50 cents (no way Rose is worth anywhere near what he makes).

    That makes it a bad deal.

    Before you start suggesting Rose will be off the cap next year, all that means is that the 50 cents will be worth $1.00 again next year when we get to replace that cap space with players that we will probably have to pay fair value to (maybe more).

    So assuming Rose plays out the year and either gets hurt or we realize he’s not the player he was, we would have wasted another year and given away $1.25 for $1.00.

    Feel free to quibble with the actual values, but the principle is correct. It was a bad deal.

    (The Bulls 2nd round pick next year won’t be worth much and Calderon (though hated in NY because he’s not a starter) is not that bad at 7 million as a backup in this environment as an expiring).

  70. In his pomp Rose was a good player because of two things:

    1. He got to the rim constantly

    2. He got fouled constantly

    He wasn’t a good finisher. He never could shoot. And now? He still can’t finish. He still can’t shoot. And his knees are fucked. Where do you non-reub people see the upside? I mean that sincerely. I don’t get how anyone can look at Rose’s career and think he’s an upgrade to Grant. In the 8 years since he left college he’s had two seasons that were above average, and those were 4-5 years and several knee surgeries ago.

  71. NBA players need far less space then us normal folks do at the YMCA. Caldeeons value is a spot up shooter. He literally does not do another thing on the court. So if he’s not gonna shoot it, unless he’s unrealistically onen why is he out there?

    I’m not saying that what Calderon did was great or that he’s a good player anymore, I’m just saying that what Rose does it worse and more detrimental to the team.

  72. The things that no one knows right now and absolutely are necessary to evaluate this trade:

    1) Is Derrick Rose healthy? And I don’t mean healthy as in didn’t just have surgery 5 minutes ago. I mean is he as healthy as he can be? Some guys just don’t heal as quickly as others. The dude’s had knee operations pretty much every year since 2012. He’s now 16 months from his last surgery and will be ~20 months by the time the season starts. Is it surprising that his numbers seemed to get better as the year went on last season?

    2) What is the next move? Like Brian said, if they sign dudes to long-term contracts this offseason making it so we can’t offer max contracts next summer, then it probably means something different than if we sign short term contracts.

    And for all those saying that “if Rose plays like an average player we’re definitely maxing him out next year because Knicks”, that’s just dramatic overreaction. We literally have no idea what’s going to happen next summer. Even if Rose plays well, his cap hold will be so high and we will have so much cap space, there will be no need to re-sign him before doing due diligence on CP3, Westbrook, Curry, etc.

  73. How did Aldridge’s stats get so much better overnight? Could it be his new teammates and the system? Which came first, the chicken or the egg?

  74. As Frank said now guys are complaining because Rose might play like an average PG this season and we’ll overpay him. First of all, that would be a huge improvement for this team. And how can you complain about something that hasn’t happened yet? What’s wrong with you people?

  75. Is there a stat that tracks shots that should have been taken? Calderon had a shit ton of those.

  76. He wasn’t a good finisher. He never could shoot. And now? He still can’t finish. He still can’t shoot. And his knees are fucked. Where do you non-reub people see the upside? I mean that sincerely. I don’t get how anyone can look at Rose’s career and think he’s an upgrade to Grant. In the 8 years since he left college he’s had two seasons that were above average, and those were 4-5 years and several knee surgeries ago.

    The only thing to say about that is that he hasn’t had catastrophic knee injuries. He had an ACL tear which is basically a rite of passage in the NBA and NFL now. And he had some meniscus issues. No microfracture. No multi-ligament tears. Sometimes it just takes time to heal all the way – and that includes mentally as well as physically.

    Is it likely that we’ll see 2011 Derrick Rose again? No. But is it possible we might see a useful player? I think so.

  77. Jose Calderon sucked he was old and played no defense we’re going to sign Pau Gasol and be awesome shut up you stupid haters.

  78. Great article. It encapsulates everything I dislike about this trade.

    1. “Derrick Rose at his best” is probably one of the worst matches for the Triangle (or Triangle-influenced) offense. When he was winning the MVP, he did so by keeping the ball in his hands and using dribble penetration to create his own shots and shots for his teammates on the drive and kick. He has NEVER had a strong jump shooting game, let alone being a threat from the corner 3.

    2. Derrick Rose has not been “Derrick Rose at his best” for at least four years. There is no reason to believe that he will ever be “Derrick Rose at his best” again.

    3. If this deal leads to Porzingis playing a lot more 5 and Carmelo playing a lot more 4, that is a big positive. I think that the Knicks could have gotten much more useful pieces for RoLo.

    4. I am going to be rooting for the Knicks to make this work and prove me wrong because I love the Knicks. It is a lifelong commitment. The team may be unworthy of my devotion, but I give it anyhow.

  79. Frank, fire up the word processor and send another letter to Dolan. Dolan maintained control of the medical staff so all’s we need is for him to direct the doctors to fail Rose on his physical. After sending the email, you then need to accompany reub on a long cruise.

  80. Well if Rose is decent and we don’t re-sign him, then all we did was ship out two assets in order to have a worse draft pick than we otherwise would have. There really isn’t a feasible way to win this trade.

  81. No. But is it possible we might see a useful player? I think so.

    Would you say trading two useful players for the possibility of getting a useful player back is a good wager?

  82. “According to a source, Jackson told Rose of his plan to pursue Durant starting on July 1st. That in of itself may be the worst-kept secret in the NBA, along with the notion that Golden State, San Antonio, Miami and both Los Angeles clubs are also planning to recruit Durant.

    The difference now, however, is that the Knicks are not only selling Durant on Madison Square Garden and Madison Avenue, but also a roster that features a triangle we can all understand; Carmelo Anthony, Kristaps Porzingis and Rose, who turns 28 in October.”

    http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/knicks/phil-jackson-hoping-rose-helps-knicks-land-durant-article-1.2685115?utm_content=buffer133a4&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=NYDNSports+Twitter

    It’s starting!

  83. Players, coaches and systems come first. Stats follow.

    Stats are a representation of the players, coaches, and systems. And if the stats are bad, then so must be the players, coaches, and systems. Crappy players can deceive the eye, but not the stat sheet.

  84. But can good players have bad stats because of their surroundings? How did Aldridge get 30% better overnight?

  85. For once I’ll be an optimist re: Rose

    This is a good read on his performance from last year: http://www.blogabull.com/2016/4/27/11510276/derrick-rose-stats-higlights-contract

    TL; DR: His eye injury messed up his shooting in the first few months, but he shot decently afterwards. Had a good shot selection and his turnover rate was lower than the previous season.

    I didn’t watch the Bulls much last year, but it sounded like they were in a tough situation re: Rose’s role 1) playing next to Butler and 2) in a new offense.

    Best case scenario: Rose will be much more comfortable in Hornacek’s offense and will continue his play from the second-half of next year. He finds a good rhythm with Melo. KP can play the stretch 5. Maybe Rose will play some defense too! Knicks have a competent PG, something they haven’t been able to say much over the past decade.

    I think it’s really up to Hornacek to establish his role in the offense. But if their roster looks like:

    Rose – Galloway – 3 and D FA? – Melo – KP
    Backup PG FA? – Holiday – O’Quinn – Hernangomez?

    Wait holy shit our roster is super thin. I still think it’s an OK trade though!

  86. Owen, plus KP too. Don’t forget about him. And I think Noah or another useful big would sign for less to join that crew.

  87. @79 – I appreciate your effort at breaking down the asset values, but all your assumptions are based on your arbitrary valuations of the players.

    We love Robin Lopez and think he’s undervalued. Until someone else gives you something validating that, it’s just not a proven fact. Let’s say for instance we can sign Noah for 2 years $36MM (ideally it’s just for 1 year but whatever). Is that a better value than Robin Lopez? It’s close IMHO.

    We think Jerian Grant is a good contract with upside. Yes he’s a good contract, but there may be disagreement as to whether there is upside there. It’s not a proven fact.

    You think that Calderon is a good value at 7.7MM. I can tell you for sure that there are many that would not agree with that. A small standstill shooter who gets injured all the time and can’t play any defense at all. Is that any better than any number of D-league shooters who cost <10% as much?

    Re: the Bulls pick — high 2nd round picks are no longer considered throw-ins. You can't buy them for just $ anymore — usually it's players and/or future 2nd round picks. Considering how bad the Bulls could be next year, this is an actual asset.

    Justin Holiday does have value. Not sure how much.

    At the end of the day, all of us here in the peanut gallery are operating from a position of at best incomplete knowledge. Even worse, we might be operating from a position of actual WRONG knowledge. We have no idea of Rose’s health and from a trainer/orthopedic perspective whether he can get back to his old self physically. We have no idea whether Phil and co. tried to get a 1st round pick for Lopez, or whether they were told, “You know what? We see where the league is going, and sure Lopez might be playable for 20-25 min/g in the regular season, but he’ll be run off the floor in the playoffs, so no thanks”. We have no idea who is coming in FA, whereas I’m sure Phil and co. have a pretty good idea through backchannels.

    Let’s just give this some time.

  88. @99 I’m reading that Holiday is a lockdown defender with a decent outside shot. The Bulls best defender last year. A 3 and D guy like Bazemore who won’t cost us $15 million. And a great teammate too.

  89. How did Aldridge’s stats get so much better overnight? Could it be his new teammates and the system? Which came first, the chicken or the egg?

    The only stat that got better was his ts%. Everything else is nearly exactly the same.

    TREB - AST - STL - BLK - TO. - PF. - PTS
    10.4 - 1.8 - 0.7 - 1.0 - 1.7 - 1.8 - 23.8
    10.1 - 1.8 - 0.6 - 1.3 - 1.6 - 2.4 - 21.2
    
  90. Our roster:

    PG-Rose, ?
    SG-????, ?
    SF- Melo, that guy we got yesterday who isn’t the worst PG in the NBA
    PF-O’Quinn, ?
    C-Porzingis, ?

    Add Durant and baby you got a team that can compete for a 6-8 seed as long as Rose gets hurt pretty early in the season.

  91. @102 – Eh, I heard the opposite re: his shooting, that his good shooting on Chicago was a blip but he’s mostly been a terrible college and professional shooter otherwise. If he’s a good defender on the cheap, that’s nice though, especially if he’s playing next to Rose

    @101 – This is a good point about the Bulls’ pick next year. We will be rooting for them to tank. I have no idea about what next’s year’s draft will look like, but this trade becomes much different if we get the 35th pick.

  92. Aldridge’s VORP went from 1.4 to 2.2, which is about a 60% gain.

    His WS48 went from 1.65 to 2.15, close to a 30% gain.

    Overnight! Magic!

  93. Melo is also confirmed to go to the olympics. The previous 2 times he’s gone…he had his two of his 3 best professional seasons. The other being 2013

  94. Even if we don’t get KD, as massive has said, if we could sign Whiteside and say, Courtney Lee, or Bazemore and Noah or Batum and Noah this team is sooo much better and a real contender this year.

  95. Durant is a guy who refuses to take end-of-quarter heaves because they adversely affect his efficiency metrics. There’s no way he’s fooled by Rose.

  96. @111 I’m not positive on the math, but if we need to fill eight roster spots with ~$25 million, I’m not sure we can sign any of those combos. Even Batum or Whiteside on their own may be too expensive

  97. Really hope we do the Jeremy Lamb trade because we still need a SG/SF especially if Melo’s playing the 4 this year. Does trading for Lamb still give us room for Whiteside?

    Draft picks are nice too!

  98. @115. Probably not. The value in that trade is in what you think the team can draft at #22 (in what everyone is saying is a weak draft). I don’t think a team would sign Jeremy Lamb at 3/$21, even in this climate.

  99. As some have said, the FA period will really determine what Phil is up to.

    I still don’t like the trade, but it has little to do with Rose as a player. I think he’s a rental. It is all about the big play for 2017. Rose is subterfuge, Phil’s way of appeasing Dolan to keep his job if the Knicks fail to make the playoffs this year. Maybe adding Rose impresses Durant, but that’s a very long shot.

    2017 has a monster free agent list and very deep draft. The Knicks have their 1st rounder! And now a 2nd from Chicago. And KP will be the starting C, so I know that Rolo was going to be dealt eventually.

    I still don’t like sacrificing Rolo and Grant (even if he only ends up being a decent backup) for this. But please stop pining for Calderon. Horrendous D (yeah, Rose is bad too) and an overrated shooter b/c he only shoots when wide WIDE open, thus his shallow efficiency.

  100. After doing some quick math, Whiteside costs about 23.5m per year under a 94M cap; Lamb is 6.5M in 2016-2017, making their total 30M–add in the first rounder who’s salary will be what, 1M, which makes it 31M total; factoring in the Rose trade (where I think we gained 1 or 2m) and a 1.5M Hernangomez signing we have about 33M, so that leaves 2M left for some player (idk what that buys you besides a Euro or a good UDFA?) and the room exception (2.5m). Do we also get a mini mid level exception, or is that out of the running?

    Either way, it looks like we would have about 4.5-5M to spend on two FAs if we signed Whiteside and acquired Lamb. I don’t know if that’s good or not.

    Let me know if I got any of the cap math wrong, Brian et al.

  101. I will ask this and then run away.

    If Lopez is undervalued in today’s market, then does that mean that Melo and his remaining 3 yrs / $78M is also under-valued? We are about to see a lot of guys make that or more.

  102. People are making this way more complicated that it needs to be by speculating about the future. We don’t who will be available and willing to sign with us in the future. We know the current values of the players and their contracts.

    Wrong — this is complicated. What you are not factoring in is that certain max contracts are worth way more than other max contracts (three reasons — 1) because of the nature of a salary cap most max contracts are assets, 2) because of the outsized impact of a small number of players on a basketball team’s performance, max contracts typically have excess value, 3) if the cap is going to be higher next year than a current year a max contract is in the money more often than not, and 4) not all max contract players have the same value. If this improves our probability of signing a max contract player that is worth more that a max contract this year than this will be a good trade.

    That’s why who they sign this year will be a very good indication of what their intentions regarding this trade were. If they give out long-term contracts taking up their whole cap (like longterm deals for, say, Turner and Bazemore), then that’s a pretty good sign that they legitimately think that Rose is good and that’s why they did the deal.

    I don’t agree with this either. While there is a valid approach of only doing one year deals and then trying to accumulate 2x max deals next year, we should absolutely sign 1x max deal this year for the right players. Alternatively it wouldn’t be bad to sign a few long term contracts to players that are undervalued (this is by definition harder since players who’s contracts are not capped at the max are less likely to be undervalued in an efficient signing market, but is not impossible if Phil has a variant perception of value and gets it right (not a contract, but KP is a good example where he had a variant perception and appeared to get it right).

  103. Melo’s not really that much older, if you focus your attention solely on big men named Al. Both Horford and Jefferson are in their 30’s.

  104. One thing’s for sure. There are some posters here who will cheer wildly for ANY move this front office makes. Some of the same people who are rationalizing this trade and acting like it’s a genius move were also fans of the Bargnani trade. There is literally no move the Knicks could make that the fanbois would disapprove of. It’s all sunshine and rainbows no matter how awful the player is who is being acquired.

    Bargnani was a #1 overall pick! He’s like Novak, but better! He makes us a 54-win team, easy!
    Rose is on a contract year! He’ll be motivated! He didn’t have teammates like Melo and KP in Chicago!

    This team could trade two #1 picks for Emmanuel Mudiay and some of the same people would be PUMPED.

  105. Whiff on Durant. Who cares. Just go grab Whiteside.

    If we get Jeremy Lamb and a 1st rounder for free, does that still mean Phil Jackson is an idiot? I always felt Durant would re up in OKC for a year and bolt to LA with Russell Westbrook. But Whiteside is a guy who I truly believe could be had. The triangle is a big man’s offense, he will be playing in a “loaded” starting five with Melo, Porzingis, and Rose. Add Jeremy Lamb and you don’t need Bazemore since they’re comparable players and Lamb is 3 years younger.

    If we can add Lamb, DeAndre Bembry/Tyler Ulis, and Hassan Whiteside this summer then we would have won July. I truly believe that. Screw the Derrick Rose trade. It doesn’t have an effect on what we’re going to do.

  106. Shouldn’t we just get Stephen A’s reaction and conclude the opposite to be true?

  107. just googled deandre bembry. he has a sweet ‘fro, but his twitter handle is ‘colder than fire’, which makes no sense. Pass.

  108. I will ask this and then run away.

    If Lopez is undervalued in today’s market, then does that mean that Melo and his remaining 3 yrs / $78M is also under-valued? We are about to see a lot of guys make that or more.

    YES, absolutely Melo is undervalued on his current contract. Need to consider that 1) need to wait until after FA this year to compare, 2) Melo’s stats are depressed by playing with such crap players.

  109. I’m surprised no one has mentioned Trice yet. Suppose he has made great progress in the D League and comes aboard as the 3rd PG behind Rose & Galloway? Also, what if the offseason ends with the additions of Hernangomez, Noah, Troy Daniels, Trice, Jimmer, Jared Dudley, and the retention of Williams? Is that even feasible and could the Knicks get into the playoffs with that roster, assuming Rose is healthy?

  110. So fucking brutal that we’ve reset the roster 3 times under Phil already. Derrick Williams and Arron Afflalo aren’t hard to replace as talents, but we’re down at least 5 rotation guys from last year including two who were set to be rotation fixtures for a little while in Grant and Lopez. Where’s the continuity?

    On the plus side, it’s June so I’m holding out hope that Justin Holiday can be a player. He forced his way into Chicago’s rotation last year and played in the Warriors system two years back. Lance Thomas had a similar profile when we got him a couple years ago – limited success in the league, played with some good teams, good defensive reputation, never got a ton of minutes despite his coaches loving him. The Knicks obviously have openings in the rotation so he’ll have an opportunity here.

  111. One thing’s for sure. There are some posters here who will cheer wildly for ANY move this front office makes. Some of the same people who are rationalizing this trade and acting like it’s a genius move were also fans of the Bargnani trade. There is literally no move the Knicks could make that the fanbois would disapprove of. It’s all sunshine and rainbows no matter how awful the player is who is being acquired.

    Bargnani was a #1 overall pick! He’s like Novak, but better! He makes us a 54-win team, easy!
    Rose is on a contract year! He’ll be motivated! He didn’t have teammates like Melo and KP in Chicago!

    As mentioned before, the only resemblance between this trade and the Bargnani trade is that we took on a guy who had low value around the league. Other than that, it’s completely different. We did NOT send 3 draft picks out. We did NOT get a guy who has NEVER been good in the league.

    And just because us optimists are willing to look at the possibility of something other than a negative outcome doesn’t mean we think it’s a GREAT deal — it just means that we think there’s a possibility that it might be ok. What good is being a fan if you can’t hope?

  112. JK47 see me after this season. I don’t subpost. The Knicks will be fine either way. Win this year and be flexible or lose and be flexible with a high pick. Win win

  113. @124
    Actually, the DRose trade ensures that the Knicks will be able to sign a max player (PG?) next offseason. That and the 2nd round pick is the silver lining. Rose is garbage, a placeholder, and does not matter.

    @125
    LOL! Probably, yes. I’m guessing that he likes the trade b/c of DRose.

  114. Frank I’m with you except that I think that this is a good to great deal. Idc what kind of fucking negativity reins in here. This is the best transaction Phil has made.

  115. @132 Stephen a was actually pretty meh on the trade. He said its smoke and mirrors from Phik So there’s that.

  116. @134. Did he really say that! Yikes. If so, Stephen A and I actually agree on something. I think DRose is smoke and mirrors. This is all about 2017.

    If the Knicks make the playoffs this year, it is a happy coincidence.

    @129. Really agree. This seems like a huge step, at best, sideways. But, we’ll see what happens in free agency and maybe in a minor trade or two.

  117. Headline is Wrong – I am a Certified Public Accountant, and I Do Not Like The Trade

  118. If we can add Lamb, DeAndre Bembry/Tyler Ulis, and Hassan Whiteside this summer then we would have won July. I truly believe that. Screw the Derrick Rose trade. It doesn’t have an effect on what we’re going to do.

    Replace Bembry/Ulis with Juan Hernangomez but i’m right with you. I still don’t understand why MIA is the fav to sign Hassan — is it just status quo for status quo sake? Are we assuming that bc they gambled on him, and helped him, he will prefer them to other teams with different situations but equal amounts of money?

  119. Aldridge’s VORP went from 1.4 to 2.2, which is about a 60% gain.

    His WS48 went from 1.65 to 2.15, close to a 30% gain.

    Overnight! Magic!

    Stats that are derived from a combination of player and team performance go up when a player goes to a better team is supposed to indicate that the player became better?

  120. Win this year and be flexible

    And max Derrick Rose after the season OR let him walk and receive nothing but worse draft position for two assets

    or lose and be flexible with a high pick.

    Having traded two assets for a tank commander instead of just letting Tony Wroten do it for the minimum.

    Win win

    Serious request, can anyone outline a scenario for me in which we “win” this trade? If it involves Rose being good and proceeding to take a discount, please recall that this is the guy who invoked getting another max contract in his answer to a question about his (ongoing) sexual assault case.

  121. If we do a poll how will all of the naysayers wriggle their way out of it? Can we do an open ballot?

  122. What good are the stats then if they don’t solely show how good the player is? So Rose’s bad WR 48 and VORP stats last year might not really mean anything?

  123. Even if Derrick Rose comes out here next year and wins the fucking MVP award, it’s STILL a terrible idea to give him a long-term contract. The guy has not one, but TWO bum knees. This isn’t like he’s coming off one knee surgery, he’s coming off THREE knee surgeries. He has had season-ending knee surgery in three of the past five seasons. One of the other seasons he missed entirely because of his first knee injury.

    The most charitable way to look at this trade is to say that the Knicks are punting this upcoming season, and that they’re gonna go in big in 2017 free agency. We’ve seen how well this “Waiting For Godot” approach to future free agent classes has worked out in the past.

  124. Headline is Wrong – I am a Certified Public Accountant, and I Do Not Like The Trade

    An accountant. I just need one to agree. And I have a half dozen on facebook. :-(

  125. What good are the stats then if they don’t solely show how good the player is? So Rose’s bad WR 48 and VORP stats last year might not really mean anything?

    The Bulls were better offensively and defensively with Aaron Brooks on the floor. They were about a half point better offensively with Brooks, and about four points better defensively. Aaron Brooks had a .040 WS48, while Rose had .009.

    HE WAS WORSE THAN AARON BROOKS. Let that sink in.

  126. the thing is that there are gonna be multiple teams who whiff in free agency on biyombo, horford, dwight etc. etc.

    who will all have cap space and have no problem going for RoLo as a back up plan.

    really feel like PHIL is just clicking buttons

  127. For what it’s worth, I think this move brings up the ceiling of the team for 16-17.

    I don’t think signing D. Rose in the long-term is the right move, but if this trade gets KP playoff experience in Year 2 while actually increasing future flexibility, I think it’s an OK move.

    Something like low-medium risk, high-medium reward. I don’t think this trade or the players involved is worth going into hysterics one way or another.

  128. Something like low-medium risk, high-medium reward. I don’t think this trade or the players involved is worth going into hysterics one way or another.

    What’s the “reward” here? Derrick Rose has his first healthy and productive season in five years? Okay, great. Then his contract expires. You wanna give a max contract out to Derrick Rose? Because I sure as hell don’t. It’s so hard to figure out what the “reward” is in this scenario that I literally cannot figure out what Phil Jackson is thinking.

  129. I comment a lot of “off the wall” things to hopefully get other opinions to see what comes up, but John Salley is nuts. He says if the Knicks sign D12, then we are in the ECF. If he’s a 14/12/3 guy, sure- I can get on board with it. But if I was against offering Conley the max, then i’m sure as hell against signing Howard. Only because I don’t think he’d take a pay cut. If we can get him for around 15/yr, then I’d take that deal. Otherwise, absolutely not. I’d rather max out the younger Whiteside, even though Howard may still be slightly better when locked in.

  130. Don’t post very often, but the venom on this board for this trade is just too much. Y’all are acting like Robin Lopez is the second coming or something. Getting rid of a mediocre to acceptable role player for the expiring contract of a 27-year old former MVP who was better than any point guard we had is at worst a “wait-and-see.” If Rose is as terrible as y’all think he is, then we blow it up and don’t keep him. It’s not like this team with Our Savior Robin Lopez was going anywhere anyways.

  131. Headline is Wrong – I am a Certified Public Accountant, and I Do Not Like The Trade

    An accountant. I just need one to agree. And I have a half dozen on facebook. :-(

    OK, we’ll go with that. :-). I’ve been a Knicks fan for a long time so I hope I’m wrong about the trade and Rose recaptures his MVP form next year at the Garden. I just think we could have gotten him for less. It seems every time the Knicks are involved in a trade they overpay – Always.

  132. What’s the “reward” here? Derrick Rose has his first healthy and productive season in five years? Okay, great. Then his contract expires. You wanna give a max contract out to Derrick Rose? Because I sure as hell don’t. It’s so hard to figure out what the “reward” is in this scenario that I literally cannot figure out what Phil Jackson is thinking.

    The reward is the team being 1) competitive in the short-term, which I think will have an intangible benefit for KP, 2) having more flexibility next offseason, 3) potentially getting a decent high second-rounder, 4) Holliday contributing more to the team than Grant did or could

    Rose was decent in the second-half of last year and could/should be better at the point than Calderon or Grant this year. He might not, but I don’t think they gave up too much to take that risk.

    Of course I’m squinting a bit to see a silver lining. I think this team would be much differently managed if you or I were in charge, but IMO once the team gave Melo the NTC / Melo refused to leave, some semblance of logic went out the window.

    Truthfully my biggest priority is developing KP. I think this trade could potentially help in that regard.

  133. Aaaaaaand Brooklyn got the 20th pick and a future 2nd rounder for Thad Young. Is the whole “Lopez was worthless anyway” thing dead yet?

  134. What good are the stats then if they don’t solely show how good the player is? So Rose’s bad WR 48 and VORP stats last year might not really mean anything?

    I don’t use WS/VORP. I stick with per minute and advanced shooting for individual player stats. If I have to I’ll use PER, knowing it’s flaws.

  135. What good are the stats then if they don’t solely show how good the player is? So Rose’s bad WR 48 and VORP stats last year might not really mean anything?

    There is simply no way to put up a .009 WS48 without playing horrendously shitty basketball.

  136. @150 who in the east would be better?

    I’m not really sure, but I expect the Wiz to improve, along with Charlotte and Indy. Unless we sign Noah or Whiteside as opposed to Howard, our overall shooting and spacing should be worse. I have no doubt the team would be good with Howard, but if he signs for close to his max, then Phil is gonna have a hard time filling in the roster with quality depth. And we would need that with Howard/Rose/Melo not necessarily being pillars of health.

  137. Aaaaaaand Brooklyn got the 20th pick and a future 2nd rounder for Thad Young. Is the whole “Lopez was worthless anyway” thing dead yet?

    Dude is the same age as RoLo, only makes $1.5 less, and is objectively worse at everything basketball related. But yeah, Lopez had such an albatross of a contract that we had to take garbage to ditch him.

  138. Also, RE: Free Agency

    If Durant says yes to Phil’s pitch, I would expect free agents to take less to play in NY for the offensive juggernaut that would be KD/Melo/KP/Rose.

  139. Hey, why would you want a first round pick and a second round pick, and all the cost-controlled seasons that come with that, when you can have one year of a washed-up former star PG at $21M? WIN NOW, BABY.

    #NoBrainer

  140. Uh I’d rather the cap space the Lopez move got us for 2017. Sorry. Holiday and Rose +cap space > 20th pick in a weak ass draft

  141. Uh I’d rather the cap space the Lopez move got us for 2017.

    Then get multiple 2nd round picks, or a 2018 1st round pick, or a player on an expiring contract who isn’t among the worst guards in the NBA.

  142. Moving Lopez for the Young package opens up the 2017 cap space with the added advantages of getting two picks and not acquiring one of the worst basketball players in the NBA

  143. Hey, why would you want a first round pick and a second round pick, and all the cost-controlled seasons that come with that, when you can have one year of a washed-up former star PG at $21M? WIN NOW, BABY.

    The only thing worse than giving up value for a washed-up former star at 21m on an expiring deal would be then signing that injury prone star to a large 4 or 5 year deal. Look at Rose’s injury history: it’s obvious his body will not allow him to play at an elite level. He’s had many sprains, strains, fractures in addition to his major knee problems. Even if Rose played at an all-star level for a year, who would be comfortable signing a 28yo with that injury history and who relies on athleticism to a large 4 or 5 year deal? There’s no meaningful reward here. Phil’s MO appears to be making no reward trades/signings. Afflalo/Dwill were no rewards but at least the opportunity cost was somewhat low as well. Lopez/Grant for no reward just took this to a new level of Jackson incompetency. The only positive thing he’s done is listen to Clarence Gaines.

  144. As hard as these last 24 hours have been, it was heartwarming to see Jowles, Owen, and RuRu unanimously agreeing on something. Congratulations, Phil. You did it.

  145. I guess the difference of opinion here is that some of you think Derrick Rose will be terrible. I don’t. I think he’s a great fit just for penatration purposes. Sign a few shooters preferably a few 3-d guys and we got a chancenext year. If you think he’s a 0 then we won’t agree.

  146. I just read that Durant will meet with the Knicks on July 1st. Phil is really starting to put this all together!

    Yesterday morning I was talking about Augustin, JJ Avilla and Courtney Lee.
    Today it’s Derrick Rose, Kevin Durant and J. Noah.

    Thanks, Phil!

  147. Hubert, do you mean that they’re agreeing about Phil being a moron or about me being a troll? :)

  148. OK. The thad young trade makes me re-think my thoughts on Lopez’ trade-ability, although Thad did have a very good year. Not sure he’s objectively worse…..15ppg on 52% shooting and 9 boards is pretty good.

  149. Hubert, do you mean that they’re agreeing about Phil being a moron or about me being a troll? :)

    A little bit of column A, a little bit of column B

  150. if we get durant, we need to bring back JR, which I think we can accomplish be getting rid of our uni’s and just being skins all year.

  151. At this point, even if we don’t get Durant and “settle” for, say, Bazemore and Noah this team will be terrific! And we’d have money left probably for another chip too. Or we could just go for Whiteside instead of Noah but he’s more risky I think at a higher salary.

    Rose
    Bazemore
    Noah
    Melo
    KP

  152. Reub, I can’t speak for anyone else but if Durant signs with the Knicks I will take back every bad word I’ve ever said about the Derrick Rose trade, Phil Jackson, the triangle, James Dolan, and literally anything else you want.

    In the event that he doesn’t, will you do the same thing in reverse?

  153. Look, a best reasonable case scenario for next season is Rose improves to bad starting PG level (i.e. maybe .060 WS/48), and the Knicks sign Pau to a big multi-year deal (maybe $15m/year for four years) and get 1-2 other decent bench players. Assuming quality improvements from KP as well as a renaissance from Melo, you’re looking at 45-50 wins.

    But let’s look at all the assumptions we’re making here:

    Rose becomes competent: 1 in 5 chance

    Melo recovers to 13/14 levels: 1 in 5 chance

    Pau doesn’t decline: 1 in 3 chance

    KP improves significantly: 1 in 2 chance

    If you’re counting on all those things happening, the odds are ( 1/5 ) * ( 1/5 ) * ( 1/3 ) * ( 1 / 2 ) = 1 in 150 chance.

    We put it all together, and we have a 1 in 150 chance of having a chance of making the conference finals and then move forward with three of our four best players as virtual guarantees to decline each year thereafter.

  154. @101 Frank,

    I don’t think there are many people inside or outside NY that think Lopez’s current contract is anything other than attractive in this environment. Grant is a little more debatable, but I doubt there are many people inside or outside of NY that would argue that he’s on anything other than a fair contract now (or better).

    You can’t give credit to the Rose deal if NY signs Noah (or someone else) to a very attractive deal. That’s an independent move. They already had the cap space to sign someone and still could have traded Lopez and/or Grant for a quality player at other positions.

    The people that are not trashing this deal are mostly rationalizing it by coming up with scenarios where the Knicks will be better. But they are not considering the fact that we had a ton of space and almost certainly could have traded these players for MORE than a broken down placeholder on a bad contract and have been even better than that.

    Trades are primarily about asset values. We clearly gave up more than we received in terms of value. Rose has not been a good player for over 3 years, is very injury prone, and he’s making way more than Lopez who is an average or slightly above average player that was healthy all year.

    Is it a disaster?

    No

    But this is not the first time Phil has been taken to the cleaners. A dollar here and a dollar there and before you know it you’ve given away any chance of being really good.

  155. noblefacehumper, I still think as I said above that this team is on its way to greatness even without Durant but obviously I’d rather do it with him.

    I don’t get some of you guys. This is the time of the year when all possibilities are in play and we’re not behind in the standings. Hope should spring eternal….at least in this summer season of reclamation. It’s not really that hard to be optimistic, is it?

  156. I just want to see everybody’s faces after the Knicks sign Durant/Whiteside and he says “Derrick Rose is a big reason why I came here.”

  157. I can’t wait to see everybody’s ridiculous rationalizations when Phil’s next big signing is Joakim Noah.

  158. I’m kind of in between on this trade, but the idea that we lose if Rose sucks and we lose if he exceeds expectations because then we sign him to a max deal is frankly stupid. If Rose plays well and we make the playoffs, then we go into 2017 with a ton of cap space and a franchise that is viewed as on the rise. It’s not a given that we re-sign Rose if he plays well, and if he sucks, we move on from a one year deal that improved our cap position going forward.

  159. Rose playing well is almost definitely not enough to get us into the playoffs unless we make more major moves, which would indicate that Phil and co. think Rose is actually good, which would indicate that we’re fucked.

  160. Melo smiled!

    WEEEEEE ARE THE CHAAAAAAMPIONS MY FRIEEEEEEND

    It’s over folks! Durant is coming here and we will win the next ten titles, meaning Phil will need to get three toes surgically implanted for his 23 ringzzz

    Let us never forget the day when Melo smiled at a TMZ reporter– the greatest day in Knick history.

  161. Rose playing well is almost definitely not enough to get us into the playoffs unless we make more major moves, which would indicate that Phil and co. think Rose is actually good, which would indicate that we’re fucked.

    So now I’m really confused, if Phil makes more major moves, good or bad, we’re fucked?

    That’s kind of what I’m talking about, this attitude that there are no possible positive outcomes from the Rose trade.

  162. Rose playing well is almost definitely not enough to get us into the playoffs unless we make more major moves, which would indicate that Phil and co. think Rose is actually good, which would indicate that we’re fucked.

    Of course Phil thinks that Rose is actually good. There were plenty of other ways Phil could have dumped Robin Lopez’ very reasonable contract if he wanted to without taking on one of the worst players in the NBA.

    Phil probably thinks that all Derrick Rose needs is a little bit of triangulation. Then D-Rose will soar to greatness again.

  163. That’s kind of what I’m talking about, this attitude that there are no possible positive outcomes from the Rose trade.

    Oh, there are definitely some possible positive outcomes. I can think of some:

    1. The trade hastens Phil Jackson’s exit from the Knicks
    2. The trade hastens Carmelo Anthony’s exit from the Knicks
    3. The trade results in the Knicks getting a high lottery pick in the 2017 draft

  164. Overall I wish the Knicks hadn’t made this trade. I don’t think it’s a great move.

    That said, all those who are so sure that Rose can never be healthy again, please raise your hands and show me your Sports Medicine, Orthopedics, or trainer degrees. Because y’all seem very sure of something you almost certainly don’t know anything about.

    Is Rose broken and can never be put back together? Maybe. But there HAVE been players who have had much worse injuries that have come back and become good players. We just saw one dunk on everyone multiple times in the playoffs in Shaun Livingston. And it was about 4-5 years after his injury that he finally looked something like an athletic NBA player again.

    He’s not McGrady, who had microfracture at age 30 and was never the same. Not the same injury/surgery, and McGrady was a lot older.

    he’s not Penny Hardaway, who had TWO microfracture surgeries at age 29 and was never the same.

    And the other thing – is it a given that if Derrick Rose doesn’t suck we will be forced to give him a max contract for 4-5 years. Is that a rule that the Knicks have to obey now? Or are there maybe other kinds of contracts that can be offered? Because I can’t tell based on posts like this:

    What’s the “reward” here? Derrick Rose has his first healthy and productive season in five years? Okay, great. Then his contract expires. You wanna give a max contract out to Derrick Rose?

    and this

    and on the off chance he’s actually decent, guess who gets to pay for five years of mega max Rose and his two glass knees?

    To be honest – I think this trade is not great. I wouldn’t have done it. But I am able to see both sides of the story even if I don’t necessarily agree. Some of the other posters here seem to be exploding with the need to show how super smart they are looking at TS% and WS/48, as if the entire coaching staff/FO can’t open B-R also.

  165. COULD Derrick Rose regain his health? I mean, sure, I suppose it’s possible. Still, there’s this:

    2011-2012: Had season-ending surgery on left knee
    2012-2013: Missed entire season
    2013-2014: Had season-ending surgery on right knee
    2014-2015: Had season-ending surgery on right knee
    2015-2016: Stunk

    This is a good guy to gamble on?

  166. A former player was interviewed on SNY last night who had recently worked out with Rose. He described him as “Secretariat at the Belmont.” Still need more proof?

  167. A former player was interviewed on SNY last night who had recently worked out with Rose. He described him as “Secretariat at the Belmont.”

    He looks more like “Barbaro at the Preakness” to me

  168. The most charitable way to look at this trade is to say that the Knicks are punting this upcoming season, and that they’re gonna go in big in 2017 free agency. We’ve seen how well this “Waiting For Godot” approach to future free agent classes has worked out in the past.

    Yeah, I dislike the trade if that’s the strategy, as well, but, as noted, we still have to see if that is the strategy. I bet it is not, but we shall see for sure in a week or so.

  169. You can’t give credit to the Rose deal if NY signs Noah (or someone else) to a very attractive deal. That’s an independent move. They already had the cap space to sign someone and still could have traded Lopez and/or Grant for a quality player at other positions.

    Don’t agree.
    Signing Noah when you already have Lopez would be outsize $ to one position that is already getting deprecated in the modern NBA. If you have a buyer for Lopez, then sure. But who is the buyer and what is the price? As soon as you sign Noah, everyone knows you need to trade Lopez and so your bargaining power is gone.

    Nothing is done in a vacuum independent of the environment. If this year’s FA PG crop was amazing, would we have made this trade? Almost certainly not. But the FA PF/C crop is much better. That’s why this trade was made — because we need to improve in the backcourt but there’s no viable way to do it through free agency without taking big risks with long contracts on mediocre players. This is a small risk on a short contract on a player who was freaking MVP 4 seasons ago and is still only 27.

    For everyone so sure that Lopez could get a 1st round pick – why are you so sure? Because Thad Young got a 1st round pick? News bulletin — Thad Young is exactly the kind of player that is in demand nowadays – guy who can guard 3’s and 4’s, can guard smalls on a switch, can score, shoot (not 3’s but midrange), and pass. He’s long been one of Zach Lowe’s favorite under the radar players.

  170. I still don’t like the trade, but it has little to do with Rose as a player.

    Possibly. Or possibly not. Hopefully it is not about him as a player. We shall see in a week or so.

  171. If Rose doesn’t suck, it’ll probably mean he scored at a high volume at an efficiency that didn’t totally tank our offense. In other words, a classic case of a guy who gets overpaid. The narrative will be all about how he’s “back” and whatnot, and yes I would bet that he gets close to a max contract. Again, Rose has made his desire for another max contract explicitly clear, if he isn’t awful he’ll milk us for every last dollar. This, in essence, is why I genuinely believe there isn’t really a plausible scenario in which we win this trade. The other option is him walking for nothing.

  172. Question: Can MSG sign Durant to a separate contract in some status to “augment” his possible max contract with the Knicks?

  173. Someday the Knicks will make a marquee acquisition that doesn’t involve a scoring-oriented player who plays bullshit defense and isn’t even an efficient scorer. Someday, folks.

  174. COULD Derrick Rose regain his health? I mean, sure, I suppose it’s possible. Still, there’s this:

    2011-2012: Had season-ending surgery on left knee
    2012-2013: Missed entire season
    2013-2014: Had season-ending surgery on right knee
    2014-2015: Had season-ending surgery on right knee
    2015-2016: Stunk

    This is a good guy to gamble on?

    Wait, you forgot the part where he was MVP of the league.
    You also left out the part where the surgeries he had in 13-14 and 14-15 were meniscus tears, which are extremely common in NBA players and have good prognoses.
    You also left out the part where he came back for the playoffs in 2014-15 and played reasonably well.

    You also left out the part where he had a freak orbital fracture which likely was responsible (at least in part) for his bad numbers.

    You also left out this part, courtesy of Tommy Beer:

    From Christmas thru mid-March (a total of 28 games), D Rose averaged 19.4 ppg, shooting 46.9% from the floor, 35.5% on threes, 87% on FTs.

    So basically you just left out all the stuff that might not fit into your narrative.

    I’m not saying you’re wrong. I’m just saying you’re not being evenhanded.

  175. If DRed dating an Italian supermodel could help the Knicks get Durant I’d be asking about that too.

  176. That said, all those who are so sure that Rose can never be healthy again, please raise your hands and show me your Sports Medicine, Orthopedics, or trainer degrees. Because y’all seem very sure of something you almost certainly don’t know anything about.

    5 years of missed games and poor play shift the burden of proof onto the “Rose will be healthy and productive again” side.

  177. A former player was interviewed on SNY last night who had recently worked out with Rose. He described him as “Secretariat at the Belmont.” Still need more proof?

    Well that settles it. I’m cashing in on my life savings and heading to Vegas.

  178. Yeah, that’s the bizarre thing, Frank. I get, “Hey, miracles happen!” but you very much have the burden of proof when he’s been hurt and shitty for four years now. Hurt and shitty has to be the default position with Rose. You can’t reasonably claim otherwise.

    Also, if he wasn’t hurt and shitty for four years, do you seriously think that the Bulls ever would have traded him? You say we don’t have the complete info, but you think that Chicago doesn’t have the best info of anyone?

  179. 5 years of missed games and poor play shift the burden of proof onto the “Rose will be healthy and productive again” side.

    Actually it’s 4 years.
    surgery in 11-12

    out 12-13
    13-14 surgery
    14-15 surgery
    15-16 not great

    And I’m not saying he WILL be healthy. I’m just saying he MIGHT be healthy, as opposed to other side which is saying HE CAN NEVER BE HEALTHY AND WE MUST GIVE HIM A MAX CONTRACT.

  180. He probably won’t be healthy and/or productive, but on the off chance that he is he’s likely getting a lot of money. I think we can all agree that’s an awful investment even if by some miracle he plays well this year.

  181. He probably won’t be healthy and/or productive, but on the off chance that he is he’s likely getting a lot of money. I think we can all agree that’s an awful investment even if by some miracle he plays well this year.

    His bargaining power will not be great even if he plays well this year. Everyone knows his injury history, and the free agent AND draft PG classes are absolutely fantastic next year.

    I don’t think you can just assume that 22ppg on TS 53 and 70 games played automatically equals supermax contract. Especially when you KNOW that Melo will be pushing Phil/Dolan to sign CP3.

    And btw, it’s not like Rose has a no-trade clause. If he’s playing well but the Knicks are not, they can always trade him at the deadline.

  182. If nothing else, this is a good year to take the under on the Knicks win total

  183. I dunno. It really depends on their next moves. Do they go for good players on longterm deals? If so, they could still improve this year (you’d have to squint really hard to see them as a realistic playoff team, but it’s possible). If not, then yes, odds are they will not.

  184. From Christmas thru mid-March (a total of 28 games), D Rose averaged 19.4 ppg, shooting 46.9% from the floor, 35.5% on threes, 87% on FTs.

    We’re cherry-picking 28 random games out of Rose’s year now, and holding that up as evidence of something? Gee, what happened after those 28 games, how did Rose play after that 28-game stretch?

    .466 TS%
    .450 eFG%
    .428 FG%
    .323 3PT%

    Oh.

  185. this whole time i thought we got a 2nd rd pick this year…. ugh…

    let’s hope we make some more moves today…. or i guess with the way things are going hopefully not…

  186. Best case scenario we are shadowtanking. Or playing some unexpected Jacksonian game of 3Dchess as Ruru put it. Worst case we max Rose next year.

    Either way, the Knicks are basically going to be unwatchable for another year. Derrick Rose is not a fun player to watch. At his best, he was basically the OJ Anderson of the NBA. Three yards, a cloud of dust, and two foul shots. At worst, he has been one of the very worst regulars in the NBA.

    Even if Durant came here (and to be clear that is never happening) we’d still be just mediocre.

    I suppose watching Rose, Melo, Durant, and Porzingis divide up shots would be fun in sort of Game of Thrones type of way (Durant is Daenerys, Rose is the Starks?, Melo is the Lannisters?, Porzingis is Pod?) But I really want no part of it.

  187. For people who say “at least we didn’t surrender a future draft pick”, it an be argued that for a team largely devoid of draft picks and rookie contracts over the past 15 years, trading Grant, one of two such players on the roster, is the equivalent of shipping out a pick. Whether you think Grant is going to develop or not, the sentiment is the same: famous vets on other teams are more valuable than developing your own young players. That’s is the Dolan doctrine (and BC, that’s why the Ewing trade is worse than all the others: it set the precedent of buying other teams’ crap that has dictated all those other shitty trades of Layden/Thomas/Walsh/Grunwald/Mills/Jackson).

  188. I know we added the shiny championship ring of Justin Holiday as well, who people are hoping will play rotation minutes and be awesome, but in earthbound reality he played some garbage minutes in GS last year where he shot 37% from the field, and, apparently, played even worse for ATL and CHI this year while nobody was watching.

    His pro stats are bad. And his 4 year college stats were bad, which led me to wonder why he was even drafted. The answer: he wasn’t. He went to Belgium, then played some big minutes for the Idaho Stampede. It’s a decent bet that if he didn’t have a rich brother in the NBA that he’d probably still be on the Crelan Akapi Aalstars of the Flemmish Scoore League, playing for waffle syrup every night.

  189. Holiday was alright in 500 minutes for the Bulls and was a DPOY in his college conference.

    The Knicks didn’t have to take him back to make the trade work and are coveting cap space enough to cut Wroten with a half-empty roster, so it seems they actually wanted him. We still have the same scouting department that identified Lance Thomas as worthy of a shot.

    I didn’t see anyone say he’d be awesome, but if you squint, there’s maybe something there.

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