Knicks Morning News (2016.06.23)

  • [ESPN.com – New York Knicks] Thursday's Knicks Links: Reaction to the Derrick Rose trade (Thu, 23 Jun 2016 06:04:26 EST)

    Thursday's Knicks Links: Reaction to the Derrick Rose trade

  • [ESPN.com – New York Knicks] With Derrick Rose on board, is Joakim Noah next for the Knicks? (Thu, 23 Jun 2016 02:18:10 EST)

    With Derrick Rose on board, is Joakim Noah next for the Knicks?

  • [New York Times] On Pro Basketball: Knicks Trade for Bulls’ Derrick Rose but Have More Work to Do (Thu, 23 Jun 2016 03:27:21 GMT)

    The point guard and former N.B.A. most valuable player arrived in a deal that sent three players to Chicago, whose Joakim Noah might also tempt the Knicks president Phil Jackson.

  • [New York Times] N.B.A. Prospects Hope Third Pick’s the Charm (Thu, 23 Jun 2016 01:35:51 GMT)

    Ben Simmons and Brandon Ingram are expected to be the top two picks in Thursday’s draft, leaving players gunning for the Celtics’ No. 3 pick.

  • [New York Times] Feel-Good Story Ends With Rose Traded From Bulls to Knicks (Thu, 23 Jun 2016 06:42:59 GMT)

    It was once the ultimate feel-good story, with the electrifying Derrick Rose leading his hometown Chicago Bulls to heights they had not reached since Michael Jordan and Scottie Pippen were racking up championships.

  • [New York Times] Simmons, Ingram Expected to Go 1-2 in NBA Draft (Thu, 23 Jun 2016 00:12:28 GMT)

    Ben Simmons and Brandon Ingram are the consensus cream of the crop in Thursday’s NBA Draft, making the Philadelphia 76ers and Los Angeles Lakers the likely winners of the night that can shape league futures.

  • 26 replies on “Knicks Morning News (2016.06.23)”

    @254 Best I can give on this deal is an incomplete. If Phil doesn’t come through with an FA signing to make up for the loss of Lopez, the Knicks are boned.

    I’m not sure KP is ready to play a full season at the 5. Hernangomez has rookie adjustments to make. KOQ is out to lunch mentally half the time.

    From the last thread – I agree with this 100%.

    Probably worth the listen for everyone – very fair assessment of the trade from both sides. And Nate Duncan is a really good analyst.

    Couldn’t sleep last night because I was thinking about this trade, and when I listened to this podcast, a lot of it clicked with me. For those who don’t have the time, the basic points are these:

    1) whoever is in the podcast with Duncan did not like it for the Knicks because the trade was a poor use of available assets. He considered Lopez (+his contract) an asset, and Jerian Grant an asset also. But even he didn’t think Lopez would ever garner a 1st round pick.

    2) Duncan hated the trade for the Bulls because he thinks it dooms them to mediocrity or worse. I agree with him that defensively, the league is moving away from the things that Lopez can do. Lopez really can’t guard a PNR or PNP past the free throw line, so he basically just gives up free open jumpers to whoever — I remember watching KAT just drain jumper after jumper on Lopez while he stood frozen 10 feet away. And even the other guy thought Lopez would ultimately just be a trade chip or a backup center for the Bulls. On top of that, now the Bulls need a PG in a summer of a terrible draft and an even worse PG FA class.

    3) Duncan completely disagreed with Woj that the Knicks should have just taken Rose into cap space – and Duncan is right. You trade for Rose (and his trade kicker!) and then you’re left with $8MM to find your starting SG? Makes no sense.

    Good points here. I think we are wildly overvaluing Lopez. He was freaking great last year and it barely moves the needle. If Rose is good and creates drive kick ops for our shooters that will definitely move the needle. He’s 3 years older than grant. Let that sink in.

    Re: Rose and “never passing” – when Rose was healthy, he was not THAT much of a black hole. He was basically middle of the pack in terms of % of possessions ending with an assist in 2011-12, according to Hollinger – on par with Steph Curry, Isaiah Thomas, Jeff Teague, Ty Lawson, etc.

    Overall, I can live with this trade.
    I think the downside/risk of this trade is… not so much. Lopez is what he is, which is a good player who does a lot of the little things well like set screens, box out etc, but has a lot of tangible negatives also (can’t guard more than 10 feet from the basket, can’t run/play fast). I really have doubts that he would ever garner a 1st round pick in trade, especially under this current CBA. Grant is not going to be even an average starting PG in this league, and getting rid of Calderon is a net positive.

    The upside of the trade is getting a look at Rose to see if he has any of the magic left, and having upwards of $60MM in cap space for next offseason. I mean, look at this UFA class:

    Curry
    CP3
    Westbrook
    Blake Griffin
    Hayward
    Lowry
    Gallinari
    Millsap
    Ibaka

    The other parts of the trade are worth talking about too.
    Justin Holiday is probably a legit rotation SG in this league. He’s 6’6″ with 7′ wingspan, previous DPOY of the Pac10, and probably is a legitimate 3 point shooter.

    And looking at what CHI will be running out there next year makes you think they’ll probably be bad next year. They’ll have a replacement level or worse starting PG, Butler (who was quietly not that great last year, and started to break down physically), McDermott, Mirotic, Portis, Taj, and Lopez as their main guys. This will be one of the worst defensive teams in the league, with probably 3 serious minus defenders on the court at any given time, unless you play both Gibson and Lopez together, in which case they’ll be zero spacing. That 2017 2nd might be in the 35-40 range.

    Right. I think everyone needs to take a deep breath. I can’t wait to see what they do with the cap space. I expect mostly second year option deals again. Maybe someone like bazemore or Fournier long term.

    We haven’t had a penetrating guard since Lin in 2011. I’m all for jt

    I’m not that excited to see what they do with the cap space, because Phil just traded the one good use of cap space he’s ever made for a fucking terrible player.

    This trade is similar to the Bargnani trade in that the Knicks took on a player that did not have a lot of value around the league. That said, it’s basically different from EVERY other perspective.

    1- Bargnani was never good and never had any possible chance to be good. (Easy to say in retrospect of course, since I am sure someone here will dig up quotes from me from then that showed I was at least mildly optimistic that it could work out)

    2 – the Knicks gave up THREE draft picks in that trade – 2014/2017 2nd rounders and the 2016 1st. It’s incomprehensible.

    In this trade, there is at least a plausible path to Rose being pretty good.

    1 – he used to be really really good. like MVP of the league good. Like WS/48 of >0.200 for those who like that stuff.

    2 – He’s only 27 — this is not trading for 80 year old Tracy McGrady or 112 year old Penny Hardaway. He’ll be about 20 months removed from his last knee surgery. Medically speaking it is plausible that he just needed more time to recover from all the surgeries.

    And we actually GOT what is probably going to be a reasonably valuable pick. And a rotation guard. And did not take on long-term salary.

    This trade will forever be a loss because we traded two good NBA players for one of the five worst producers in the league last year. However, if we add Biyombo (age 24) and Bazemore (turns 27 next month) then the team has improved from what it was last year. The Rose trade also makes Langston Galloway a priority to re sign. The Knicks as currently composed suck, and right now we need a good free agency period. Just offer Baze and Bizzy $15M AAV a piece and figure it out from there. If Rose goes down you have a starting five of Galloway, Baze, Melo, Year 2 KP, and Bizzy. That’s a marked improvement for the Knicks on what we had last season.

    Oh, and don’t bet on Jerry Grant for the starting position in Chicago. He can’t shoot, and that was a big reason Butler and Rose didn’t work last year (it just compounded Rose’s suckish ways). Grant is likely to suck the rest of his career if he never develops a jumper, and he’s already 24 this year.

    This trade will forever be a loss because we traded two good NBA players f

    What 2 players?

    I think Bazemore is a good possibility, although Atlanta just cleared space to sign someone, which probably makes him more likely to re-sign there.

    I highly doubt Phil wants Biyombo – not because he’s a bad player, because he’s not — but because it’s clear to everyone that KP is the center of the future for the Knicks. It is soooo much more likely we’re looking at Noah or Gasol, both of whom would be stop-gap functional front court players that might not cost that much or require as many years, and who would be great PF/C mentors for KP. Both have connections with Phil (Phil actually follows Noah on Twitter), seem to be the kind of bigs that Phil likes, and have expressed interest in playing in NY to greater or lesser degrees.

    I mean, Biyombo is young and has a lot of defensive ability, but he really has no discernible offensive skills at all. I guess you could look at him as a homeless man’s version of Rodman, but even that would be an insult to Rodman.

    btw, look at what is a very possible starting lineup for the Bulls next year:

    PG: Calderon
    SG: Butler
    SF: McDermott
    PF: Mirotic
    C: Lopez

    that is awful.

    Now look at what is a possible lineup for the Knicks:

    PG: Rose
    SG: Bazemore
    SF: Melo
    PF: KP
    C: Noah.

    I’d take door #2.

    The Bulls need to offer Mike Conley a max contract as soon as they can because he makes them a lot better. Conley, Butler, McDermott, Mirotic, and Lopez with Portis, Gibson, and Calderon rounding out your top eight makes them a playoff team in the East with room to improve as McDermott, Mirotic, and Portis improve. No Conley, though, and they’re screwed.

    For all the talk about Biyombo’s lack of offensive ability, the guy put up a .586 TS% and a .542 eFG% and I think both of those would have led the Knicks in 2016. And lack of offensive ability didn’t stop the Knicks from meeting with DeAndre Jordan. If the Knicks want to improve, we’ll at least consider signing Biyombo. There is nothing wrong with having two starting centers when one of them can potentially shoot 40% from 3 point range and the other won’t play more than 28 MPG. Phil won two rings with Bynum and Gasol, and both guys would have been a starting center on about 26 or 27 NBA teams that year.

    The Bulls need to offer Mike Conley a max contract as soon as they can because he makes them a lot better. Conley, Butler, McDermott, Mirotic, and Lopez with Portis, Gibson, and Calderon rounding out your top eight makes them a playoff team in the East with room to improve as McDermott, Mirotic, and Portis improve. No Conley, though, and they’re screwed.

    Except that according to Bobby Marks, the Bulls will only have $16MM of cap room even if they renounce both Noah and Gasol.

    Honestly, the Bulls are screwed. This was not a great deal for us from a value standpoint, but it really might be disastrous for them.

    For all the talk about Biyombo’s lack of offensive ability, the guy put up a .586 TS% and a .542 eFG% and I think both of those would have led the Knicks in 2016. And lack of offensive ability didn’t stop the Knicks from meeting with DeAndre Jordan.

    yes – that’s on a USG% of 11 with zero possiblity for greater usage. On top of that, the biggest difference between Biyombo and Jordan is that Biyombo’s not a threat as a dive man because he can’t catch. Like at all. Jordan doesn’t lack offensive ability — he just lacks a jump shot (including FTs). Jordan is a better version of Tyson Chandler, who was an amazing offensive player for what he was asked to do. CP3+Jordan is the centerpiece of what has been one of the best offenses in the league for a while now.

    That 2nd round pick might turn into a great Euro pick for us, then.

    But I have a hard time seeing how a team with Calderon, Lopez, and Butler win less than 32 games. The Bulls had a Pythagorean WL record of 37-45 last year, so they definitely overachieved with their 42 wins. Losing Noah and Gasol makes the Bulls 15 wins worse, and it would be nice to grab one (or both) of those guys to platoon at center next to KP. With Whiteside and Biyombo both on the market, though, we need to prioritize adding one of them to the Knicks along with a wing player. Bazemore is my favorite wing guy. He can shoot, defend, rebound, and even create his own offense in a pinch. After that, you’ll have to overpay the RFA guys or take a chance on Solomon Hill.

    under the radar, the weirdest move the Knicks made yesterday was cutting Tony Wroten a day before the draft.

    Even if he wasn’t progressing physically (which is what both Herring and Berman have suggetsed), what would be the downside of just sitting on him a while longer to see what happens? We’re still 4 months from the season.

    The only rationale I can think of is that his salary is basically double that of the minimum cap hold, and that Phil thinks we will need that $500K in free agency. Which seems weird to say the least, because I sort of doubt that $500K in year 1 will be the deciding factor for most free agents?

    Truthfully it’s very likely that Noah and Biyombo command similar money, and if I had to pick between the two I’m taking Biyombo all day. He’s, what, 6 years younger, and Noah just posted two seasons where his TS% was in the 400s. We don’t need high usage with guys like Rose, Melo, and KP all good candidates to have usage rates in the mid 20s this year.

    Frank, Wrotten and others of his ilk will remain available late and can be claimed with minimum salaries. There’s no reason to have any cap hit from him. Hate too say it, but he’s a dime-a-dozen guy.

    Except that according to Bobby Marks, the Bulls will only have $16MM of cap room even if they renounce both Noah and Gasol.

    As is the case about 75% of the time, Bobby Marks is wrong.

    lol. OK looks like MAX they’ll have $26MM. Which is less than Conley’s max. And then they’ll have only minimum salaries and room exception to fill their other holes.

    Sources: Charlotte’s offering No. 22 – if team will take contract of Spencer Hawes or Jeremy Lamb. Hornets need space to re-sign free agents

    If this is true we should snap take Jeremy Lamb and the #22.

    If this is true we should snap take Jeremy Lamb and the #22.

    Was just coming here to suggest exactly that. Though Hawes’ contract is a year shorter.

    If I had any faith left in the Knicks front office I’d hope they jump on that Lamb deal. He’s young, not bad at all with potential to improve, and $7m AAV is about to be the new minimum salary for all intents and purposes. The 22nd pick is nice too. But we don’t do smart things, and based on our last move I’m assuming we can’t go after Lamb because he plays the same position as future Knicks max player DeMar DeRozan.

    I like that possible trade!

    Hey guys, you know that Durant is in town. Just sayin.

    Woj also says Brooklyn is going to get a first for Thaddeus Young. Kind of makes it hard to believe that Robin Lopez, who is better at everything, couldn’t have fetched the same…

    I’d do the charolette deal and ATLs if the reports are true about them trying to dump splitter with the 244th pick.

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