Congrats to Julius Randle on Making Second Team All-NBA

Julius Randle has now made it as high, All-NBA-wise, as Carmelo Anthony, James Worthy, Paul Pierce, Chris Bosh, Reggie Miller, Ray Allen, Vince Carter, Tony Parker, Blake Griffin, Yao Ming, Pau Gasol, Alex English, Dave Cowens, Paul George, Dennis Rodman, Kevin Johnson, Al Horford, Dikembe Mutombo and Joe Dumars.

That’s very impressive. I don’t think I’d vote for Julius Randle as one of the four best forwards in the NBA in the 2020-21 season, but maybe top six! But hey, if the voters want to go for him, that’s awesome! Good for Randle!

Congratulations, Julius!

Here are the three teams.

First: Nikola Jokic, Giannis Antetokounmpo, Stephen Curry, Luka Doncic, Kawhi Leonard

Second: Chris Paul, Damian Lillard, Joel Embiid, Julius Randle, LeBron James

Third: Kyrie Irving, Bradley Beal, Rudy Gobert, Jimmy Butler, Paul George

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314 thoughts to “Congrats to Julius Randle on Making Second Team All-NBA”

  1. I have the same feeling as you, Brian, and was expecting Randle to be in the third team. But if the other forwards are Giannis, Kawhi, Lebron, Jimmy and PG13, then i think it’s correct because if you take injuries and availability in consideration he’s the 3rd, only behind Giannis and Kawhi.

  2. Congrats to Julius Randle, another achievement in a great season for him.

    He even got 4 votes for NBA All-Defense…

  3. Your list clearly shows he’s a number 2 option on a championship contender. The one’s on that list that were number 1 (Melo, Yao, Carter) never won it, that says a lot right? And the one’s that made it, were clearly number 2 (Dumars, Parker, Pierce, Gasol) or even number 3 (Worthy, Rodman, Allen) on their championship teams.
    Let’s hope he is a legit number 2 and that we can find an alpha dog to play with him.
    Unless we go the Pistons 2004 route and win it with two number 2s (Billups, Hamilton) and one number 3 (Wallace). :P

  4. Durant was a monster yesterday
    his performance put a different light on Giannis’s two MVPs.

    Jeff Green had a great game,
    but more than anything I think the Bucks must be embarrassed, they choked in the second half (71-49 BRK!).

    The serie isn’t over but Bud’s bench must be trembling…

  5. Oh, and one last thing, i think this affects the money he can receive next year, right? I’m not with time to check it out, if one of you can do it, i’d much appreciate it.

  6. According to Bobby Marks Randle’s contract has “unlikely” incentives for:

    – Being named to either the first or second All-NBA Defensive Team (not achieved)
    – Being named to the All-Star team (achieved)
    – Making the playoffs while playing in at least 65 games (achieved)

  7. Happy for Julius. Hope he can do that every season. He looks Below average in the playoffs while the other guys in the list plays like stars and can will their team to victory

  8. Yep, congrats Julius.

    This series and playoff run might do more for Durants legacy than anything yet.

  9. Max: According to Bobby Marks Randle’s contract has “unlikely” incentives for (…)

    Oh, thanx Max, but when i wrote “next year” i was thinking about the next contract. Will this achievement make him eligible for a supermax extension/contract? But i guess not, as i read Beal is not eligible and he’s also All-NBA.

  10. Owen: This series ad olayoff rub might do more for Durants legacy than anything yet.

    I have believed for a long time that Durant may be one of the most underrated all-time greats. He has lived in LeBron’s shadow, and maybe even Steph and Harden a bit, yet in my 50+ years of watching basketball I have never seen a player as gifted on the offensive side of the ball at his height and length. And his defense is very underrated. He definitely should be considered a top-10 of all time candidate, above guys like Baylor, Oscar, maybe even Shaq, Hakeem, Duncan, and Jerry West.

  11. Ok, took a little time off to search it, and yes this affects next year contract but only if he repeats All-NBA next year. If he does he’ll be eligible for a supermax (35%) instead of the standard max (30%) for player with 7 to 9 years experience.

  12. So now i don’t think he’ll sign the extension, he’ll probably work his butt off to try and make the All-NBA again to sign a supermax of 235M. That’s a huge difference to the 106M max extension.

  13. cybersoze:
    Ok, took a little time off to search it, and yes this affects next year contract but only if he repeats All-NBA next year. If he does he’ll be eligible for a supermax (35%) instead of the standard max (30%) for player with 7 to 9 years experience.

    Maybe my memory is wrong but wasn’t the Supermax reserved to player that play for their original (drafting) team or were traded during their rookie contracts?

    P.S. The bonus he got this year (1,89M) will affect is cap hit next year (2021-2022)

  14. So this season:

    – We went 41-31 and got the 4th seed in the East eclipsing every preview.
    – Julius Randle won MIPY, made 2nd Team All-NBA, finished 8th in the MVP Vote and received 4 votes for NBA All-Defense.
    – Thibs won COTY
    – DRose finished third in 6MOY vote and got a 1st place vote in the MVP Ballot.
    – IQ made first or second All-Rookie Team (to be announced).
    – Nerlens Noel got one vote for NBA All-Defense.

    Plus:

    – All the mercenaries on 1-year deals except The Plague had a good-to-very-good year
    – Moving further away from his neck operation, from february on Reggie Bullock played very well
    – We finished second in 3PT% as a team (39,2%)
    – A bunch of competitors had a lot of significant injuries and/or Covid problems (CHA, BOS, MIA, ATL, IND, ORL, WAS)

    We’re on the right path but even counting on progress from the youngsters and a full season of Mitch, repeating ourselves will be difficult and improving more so…

  15. How lucky is phx to have this break… cp3 most likely won’t miss the first game.

  16. I wonder what the protocols are for a vaccinated person? I’d figure just daily tests for (x) amount of days.

  17. Max: Maybe my memory is wrong but wasn’t the Supermax reserved to player that play for their original (drafting) team or were traded during their rookie contracts?
    P.S. The bonus he got this year (1,89M) will affect is cap hit next year (2021-2022)

    Yeah, you’re right, he’s not eligible. That’s the problem in doing a quick search. :P
    Well, even with no supermax, i think the dreadful playoff performance is fading, and this accolades are more fresh in everybody’s minds, so i still don’t think he’ll settle for the extension. But we should offer it to him, off course.
    About the incentives, it affects the cap hit next year, but more importantly (and not so good for our strategy) it affects the cap hold also. At least i think it does, but this time didn’t even search it. :P

  18. Alan:
    Oof. CP3 has entered the Covid protocols, and could miss the start of the WCF.

    Let’s hope the Jazz-Clippers series has a game 7, which will be sunday, so the WCF wouldn’t start before next tuesday or wednesday. That’ll give him time to get out of the covid protocols, i think.

  19. if we give him a player option for the 3rd year (which should be possible right?)… maybe that might be enough to entice him to take the extension…

    the problem with forgoing it is that he’s gambling that his stock won’t tank back to where it was last year for any number of reasons… injury.. 3pt reversion.. lack of a pg.. where he would at best be looking at a 10-15mm AAV deal… making all-nba 2nd team tho could make his floor the 23-26mm if any injury or reversion were to happen… some team might gamble on him if we’re not prepared to….

    there’s some upside left but i’m not sure if there’s so much to the point that randle will meet the value on a 33+mm AAV deal…. if he foregoes the extension i would look to deal him asap since it could be another kp situation…

  20. I agree.

    Would you take prime time Durant over prime time Larry Legend? Bird was more versatile; couldn’t defend though

    Z-man
    June 16, 2021 at 6:40 am

    I have believed for a long time that Durant may be one of the most underrated all-time greats. He has lived in LeBron’s shadow, and maybe even Steph and Harden a bit, yet in my 50+ years of watching basketball I have never seen a player as gifted on the offensive side of the ball at his height and length. And his defense is very underrated. He definitely should be considered a top-10 of all time candidate, above guys like Baylor, Oscar, maybe even Shaq, Hakeem, Duncan, and Jerry West.

    (Quote)

  21. That’s big news on CP3. I read a great article about the Yankees infection issues post vaccination which was fascinating. Basically said that PCR tests can detect levels of coronavirus that are miniscule. The person can’t possible infect anyone but still tests positive. Protocols haven’t really adjusted for this fact but maybe they will in this case.

    It’s so strange the pandemic is over. Just walked into a grocery store and everyone was maskless. So bizarre. Not that I am complaining but it did make me realize what a large imprint this period has made on me. I think I have picked up habits which will last a long time.

    And re Durant, absolutely an all timer of a playoff performance.

  22. Z-man: I have believed for a long time that Durant may be one of the most underrated all-time greats. He has lived in LeBron’s shadow, and maybe even Steph and Harden a bit, yet in my 50+ years of watching basketball I have never seen a player as gifted on the offensive side of the ball at his height and length. And his defense is very underrated. He definitely should be considered a top-10 of all time candidate, above guys like Baylor, Oscar, maybe even Shaq, Hakeem, Duncan, and Jerry West.

    I really think if his career had panned out just a little differently he could have been in the GOAT discussion. Those OKC teams always seemed just on the verge of breaking out to multiple titles, but kept getting derailed by critical injuries and some all-time great opposition within their own conference (and of course the Harden trade) . Then he kind of wasted the absolute best of his prime years on those Golden State teams that were too loaded for him to ever really show everything he could do, perfectly encapsulated by him winning the 2018 finals MVP for a sweep where the only thing anyone remembers from the series is Lebron’s game 1. Then of course the Achilles tear removing a full prime year. He has obviously had an amazing career and I think deserves top-10 all time discussion and I still look at it and see a lot of “what if”.

  23. Durant is in the top 15 at least. He’s been so good so long and he doesn’t show any signs of slowing down.

    Chris Paul, wow. Makes me wonder how many of his teammates are getting in line for their long-overdue jabs today.

  24. If it was just a positive test and he’s been vaccinated, Paul may be able to come back quickly, per the revised protocols. These breakthrough cases (like the recent Yankees outbreak) seem to be very different.

    Meanwhile, it looks like Kawhi might be out for the rest of the Jazz series, which also stinks. I’m guessing PG13 does not have a Kevin Durant-like game in him for tonight.

  25. I recalled watching Durant play as a rookie and I didn’t like him at all. He was a deer in the headlight, senseless chucker (shades of KKnox). But boy, oh boy, what he has now become.

    Tracy McGrady was another player who elicit a sense of awe on the offensive end, but Durant > McGrady now

  26. This is great news for Julius. He absolutely deserved it.

    But let’s be real. He made second team because he played significantly more minutes than the forwards competing with him. That’s not something likely to repeat itself. We all know he’s not actually better than Kevin Durant.

    We need to do the right thing for the Knicks right now, not for Julius Randle. And I’ll tell you what the right thing is. I’m going to pull a strat here and just inform you you’re wrong if you disagree with me. This is absolutely positively 1000% the right move to make after he turns down the extension.

    Trade him to the Portland Trail Blazers.

    Here’s what we could realistically get from them:

    Covington
    Jurkic
    Unprotected first round picks in 2023, 2025, 2027
    Pick Swaps in 2024, 2026

    Then I’d turn around and give Boston Jurkic and the 21st pick for Kemba Walker, the 16th pick, and first round picks in 2022 and 2024.

    We’d still be just as good. Thibs could absolutely make that into a solid playoff team. We wouldn’t have any terrible long term contracts on the books (and make no mistake, a Julius Randle supermax would be a TERRIBLE contract). And we would be LOADED with assets.

    That’s the move, my friends.

  27. Guys I just laid the best strategy in the history of Knickerblogger but it’s awaiting moderation so you’re just gonna have to wait to behold its greatness.

  28. All my posts are stuck in moderation today. Who’s the new moderator here, Z-Man?

    Ironically, it’s my best post ever. Seriously, I just published the blueprint for delivering multiple championships to NY. Even ptmilo might support this plan. I should call Leon Rose and submit this post as my resume to replace Scott Perry.

  29. Pivoting a bit, I think I’ve hammered down my top two picks for the our firsts and early seconds (just going off Tankathon mock draft for players available then):
    my favorite picks for each:

    19. Dosunmu
    21. Day’Ron Sharpe
    32. Trey Murphy

    My second picks for each:

    19. Springer
    21. Queta
    32. Trey Murphy (I’ve really come around on this guy, and would even pick him with the 21st pick–he looks like a legit 3 and D guy who would be perfect for a team starved of SFs. His box score stats don’t jump out at you because his role was very rigid in the UVA offense but he’s shooting 50/40/90 and his film has a lot more going on in it that he may be able to expand upon in the NBA.)

    Coming out of the draft with a PG who can at least pretend to play the position, a 3 and D SF to back up Reggie and shore up our offense, and a third C for if/when Noel leaves would be a great draft. (If we kept all three of Noel, Mitch, and Taj, I’d also be fine with just grabbing Dosunmu, Springer, and Murphy…)

  30. Holy shit, CP3 and now Kawhi getting screwed in the last few hours. Between the injuries for LAC, PHX, Utah, Philly, and Brooklyn and Milwaukee being a headcase what are ATL’s odds right now?

  31. I’d like to find our own Matisse Thybulle this year. Since he was selected with just ~1200 minutes, I’ve scoured the internet for content on his one-way greatness. And… damn.

    Crazy stat: he had more steals than field goals this year.

  32. Stan Van OUT in New Orleans after only one season!

    Hell of a news day in the Association.

  33. springer i don’t consider a pg… sort of tangential to the butler/mitchell/mcbride discussions before.. he was nominally a pg at UT but probably will be something like a josh hart type in the pro’s… maybe he can develop some of those skills eventually but as of now he has way more of a scorer’s mentality and is actually kind of limited in some regard there…. he does seem like burks type so maybe he could replicate that role here…

    as far as being able to bend defenses and hunting out efficient shots … i think there’s probably only a few actual pg’s in the draft worth mentioning….

    1. Jalen Suggs
    2. Josh Giddey
    3. Ayo Dosunmo
    4. Sharife Cooper
    5. Daishen Nix

    murphy is ok.. but i think there’s a lot more better options… either younger… more diversity in their game… and higher upside…. 1st rd / top 2nd is probably way too high for a guy as limited as murphy… where do you have edwards or aaron henry silky? i think either of them or the bigs like queta or bassey or good targets for that 32nd pick…. but it’s all speculative on who would be available at which pick…

  34. I’d like to find our own Matisse Thybulle this year. Since he was selected with just ~1200 minutes, I’ve scoured the internet for content on his one-way greatness. And… damn.

    That was pornographic.

  35. Alan:
    Stan Van OUT in New Orleans after only one season!

    Hell of a news day in the Association.

    I didn’t think he was the right fit for NO anyway. Maybe Indy gives him a look?

  36. Alan:
    Stan Van OUT in New Orleans after only one season!

    Hell of a news day in the Association.

    I don’t follow the Pels closely. Was he trying to install an offense from 2007 or something?

    Here’s a trivia question, a tough one. From Stan’s page, I clicked through to Alvin Gentry’s Wikipedia entry. Can you name all five teams that he has head coached?

  37. Seems like there are female candidates legitimately in contention for at least the Boston, Portland, and New Orleans jobs. I’m not holding out hope for, say, both Becky Hammon and Teresa Weatherspoon to be hired in the same offseason, but it would take pressure off of each of them individually to succeed and not muck things up for future candidates.

  38. Alan:
    Stan Van OUT in New Orleans after only one season!

    Hell of a news day in the Association.

    I was wondering how long that was going to take. IMO he used the talent on that team very poorly. Lonzo might be more willing to stay now.

  39. Stan Van Gundy is out in New Orleans.
    Scott Brooks is out in Washington.

    Edit: I did not see that others had posted both pieces of news above.

  40. The Honorable Cock Jowles: I don’t follow the Pels closely. Was he trying to install an offense from 2007 or something?

    It looked to me like he was trying to turn both Zion and Ingram into point forwards and Lozo into an afterthought 3&D player standing in the corner doing nothing. That team should have been one of the fastest teams in the NBA with Lonzo leading the break.

  41. I don’t understand a lot of the coaching decisions in the NBA. I can understand that certain coaches may not fit the players on a team well. I can understand the occasional personality conflict between a star and the coach. Those are reasons for making a change. But other than that, the coach is either very good or he’s not. If he’s not very good, why do they keep recycling them. You are better off trying new blood and hoping you get a very good one than getting a recycled mediocrity. They keep recycling mediocrity.

  42. SVG out of New Orleans seems to increase the likelihood that New Orleans matches on Lonzo. I am not certain that the Pelicans keep him now, but the bad blood between SVG and Lonzo made it a virtual certainty that Lonzo would not return with SVG as coach.

  43. CP3 is in the middle of what is probably his last great chance to win a title. After the bubble, lock downs, and all the other precautions everyone has been taking over two seasons, how do you come up with a positive now? I sure hope he wasn’t out partying or doing something stupid at this stage with only a few weeks left to the season.

  44. I think Randle would be foolish to turn down an extension. He was exposed as a 2nd option in the playoffs and there’s no guarantee he’s going to have the same statistical season next year that he had this year.

    1. His 3p% was a such a huge jump from his norm, it’s more likely to decline than stay flat even if he is a better shooter now.

    2. The reason he got so many assists this year is that we didn’t have a viable PG option on the court a lot of the time. We ran the offense through him not by choice, but by desperation. Assuming we upgrade the PG position, he’s going to handle the ball less and get fewer assists.

    3. In the hopeful but unlikely event we get a legitimate #1 option (or more likely another good scorer) in the starting lineup, Randle is going to get fewer touches, shots, and points

    We could easily see a situation where Randle is scoring less, getting fewer assists, and lower 3p%, and is back to being considered the Randle we originally signed with a somewhat better 3 point shot. That’s a very good player that’s even better than the one I liked coming into the season, but it’s not a supermax player. He might as well take the money now and lock down that contract. Why gamble on getting hurt and further exposed as a second option?

  45. Deeefense: We could easily see a situation where Randle is scoring less, getting fewer assists, and lower 3p%, and is back to being considered the Randle we originally signed with a somewhat better 3 point shot. That’s a very good player that’s even better than the one I liked coming into the season, but it’s not a supermax player. He might as well take the money now and lock down that contract. Why gamble on getting hurt and further exposed as a second option?

    On the other hand, the difference in AAV between what he could get in an extension this summer and what he could get as a free agent next summer is huge. Jeremy Cohen broke it down here. The most he could get in an extension is four years/$116M. If he gets his 30% supermax after next season, he could get 5y/$201M. Even if you back out the last year of the SuperMax, he would get $156M over the first four years of a SuperMax deal — $40M more than he would get if he took an extension this summer.

    There are lots of alternative structures for the Knicks and Randle to agree to a shorter extension, which would give Randle more downside protection than just rolling the dice on next year. I expect that we would see one of those.

  46. I was waiting for the axe to fall on SVG, the Pels are one of the biggest disappointment of the season and he didn’t win his players support.

    Brooks is a bit more surprising but he was in his fourth year, maybe despite their good run at the end the FO think it’s time to try something new and they probably need to as they were already in the bullseye for next year.
    WAS summer revolves around Beal signing his next contracts extension, otherwise they’ll put up an auction, sell him and rebuild.

    Thybulle is very, very good on defense. People are starting to talk about him as “the new Tony Allen” but at 24 he could become more than that.

  47. Max: Thybulle is very, very good on defense. People are starting to talk about him as “the new Tony Allen” but at 24 he could become more than that.

    Didn’t you meant to say “as ‘the new Frank Ntilikina'” ? :D

  48. What are the NBA head coaches thinking right now? “Hmm, i wonder if i still have a job tomorrow” :D

  49. cybersoze: Didn’t you meant to say “as ‘the new Frank Ntilikina’” ? :D

    Ahahahahah that’s because Tybulle is not so good on corner threes… ;-)

  50. Max: Brooks is a bit more surprising but he was in his fourth year, maybe despite their good run at the end the FO think it’s time to try something new and they probably need to as they were already in the bullseye for next year.

    Brooks had reached the end of his contract, which is rare for a coach. Ordinarily, they will extend with one year left. It appears that the Wizards made an offer to Brooks, but Brooks did not find the terms and/or parameters going forward acceptable.

    If Mike D’Antoni wants to come back as a head coach, it seems to me that New Orleans is tailor-made for his system.

  51. I have to think SVG being out one year after Griffin seemingly really targeted him for the job is another sign of potential Zion discontent in New Orleans which has been rumored. They were definitely disappointing this year but you don’t really see guys out after one year unless things are pretty damn bad behind the scenes. One to keep an eye on over the next couple years.

  52. This postseason sucks.

    I think Randle would be foolish to turn down an extension. He was exposed as a 2nd option in the playoffs and there’s no guarantee he’s going to have the same statistical season next year that he had this year.

    As mentioned later, he could double his guaranteed money by waiting a year. He would be foolish to not gamble that.

    Worst case scenario is that he gets injured a la Isaiah Thomas and never gets another contract. More likely is he gets “exposed” again and drops his 4-year extension by $20M or so.

    But playing it safe, getting another All-NBA nod and leaving $100M in guarantees on the table? I’d fire my agent immediately. No question about it.

  53. how do you come up with a positive now?

    the universe seems to take immense pleasure in humbling us all…

    Shams says Clips think Kawhi has an ACL injury.

    crap…

  54. I’d fire my agent immediately. No question about it.

    at what point does enough become enough…who knows what level of persuasion leon and wes are capable of…i mean, him taking the extension now (even if it’s 2 years guaranteed, 2 years option) does help his “team for life” acquire a better supporting cast (based on the HUGE assumption the franchise uses their dollars wisely) around ju…

    theoretically i believe with those two year deals he adds like a 100 million or so over a five to six year period…

  55. ephus: If Mike D’Antoni wants to come back as a head coach, it seems to me that New Orleans is tailor-made for his system.

      

    I was going to write that I want this to happen, for three reasons. One is to see what he’d do with that offensive firepower — could be amazing. Two is to see how bad the defense could get from its already woeful level — could also be amazing. Three is the inevitable meltdown that could lead to the Zionization of MSG.

  56. My targets are fairly similar to Silky’s with the major exception that, as of now, Springer is my #1 choice at 19 (assuming 1-18 is chalk-ish–there are obviously plenty of players I’d prefer to Springer overall).

    Djphan has forgotten more about the draft than I’ll ever know, but I disagree with his characterization of Springer as more of a combo guard. I actually think he has more playmaking chops than he was allowed to show at Tennessee because they used Keon Johnson as a primary ball handler so frequently. Scoring wise, he wasn’t very comfortable taking threes but shot 81% from the line on 100 FTA and the stroke looks good to me so I wouldn’t worry about that. He also shot 66% at the rim–a higher figure than Suggs’.

    When you consider that he did what he did as one of the younger players in the country (he’ll still be 18 on draft day), I think he’s got the potential to be the main sleeper of the draft.

    Sharpe will probably have a long career, but I don’t think we can justify taking a rim-running type in the first round. Assuming we take a PG at 19, I’d prefer someone from the Duarte/Christopher/Cam Thomas group. I also wouldn’t hesitate to just take another PG e.g. Cooper/Butler/Dosunmu since being rigid with positions is kind of silly, but I doubt we do that in this scenario.

    At 32 I’d look at Bassey/Queta/Sharpe, and as of now that’s the order I’d prefer them because I think Bassey has the best chance to break through the rim runner mold due to his shooting and strength, followed by Queta due to his playmaking.

  57. It’s hard to say what to make of this Chris Paul situation with the information we have now. If you’re vaccinated, I’m pretty sure the NBA’s protocols don’t make you quarantine based on contact tracing. However if you actually test positive, I believe you still have to regardless of vaccination.

    So it’s possible he was vaccinated and still tested positive a la Gleyber Torres. It would be pretty insane if he wasn’t vaccinated as the NBAPA President, but who the hell knows?

    Edit: yep, he was vaccinated in February and still tested positive.

  58. I don’t know that NOP is exactly tailor made for D’Antoni. I don’t think Lonzo is really a PG and certainly not one in the MDA model. He’s good on the break but he doesn’t seem to really be able to run an offense.

  59. geo: i mean, him taking the extension now (even if it’s 2 years guaranteed, 2 years option) does help his “team for life” acquire a better supporting cast

    I think this proposition – a 2 + 2 extension with a player option – is a very good idea to try and sell to Julius. As you say the Knicks would get more room to build a better team, and he would need to keep this level of play for 3 more years and by then he can sign the full max (35%) because he’d have 10 years of experience. So if he’s confident he can put 3 more seasons like this one, he might sign it. In a way, that’s also a “maximization” of the possible earnings.
    Otoh, as Jowles says, it’s a lot of money to gamble on, so who knows what he’ll do?

  60. vincoug:
    I don’t know that NOP is exactly tailor made for D’Antoni.I don’t think Lonzo is really a PG and certainly not one in the MDA model.He’s good on the break but he doesn’t seem to really be able to run an offense.

    I could see Lonzo at the #2 with Kira Lewis running the point. Lewis/Lonzo/Ingram/Zion/Hayes would be a formidible offense.

  61. Donnie Nelson OUT in Dallas. Which apparently means Bob Voulgaris won that power struggle? Which cannot possibly please Luka? What the hell is in the water today?!?!

  62. It took way too long for the consensus on the Porzingis trade to correct itself but now that it has literally imploded the Mavs’ whole franchise I think we’re there

  63. Silky Johnson, Fleet Admiral of the Tank Armada: 21. Queta

    thenoblefacehumper: At 32 I’d look at Bassey/Queta/Sharpe (…) Queta due to his playmaking.

    So much love for Queta, thank you guys. I’m starting to believe that he really has a good chance to be selected by the Knicks, as he’d be a nice replacement for Noel.
    To bring good luck to this scenario, if it happens i’ll select randomly* one of you guys and send a box of the finest Port Wine i can get.
    * – your names on papers in a bag and then i take one out with my eyes closed. of course i’ll write the names of posters that don’t agree with my views in a much harder paper to know who to select and who don’t. :P

  64. Since CP3 was vaccinated, he’ll probably only miss a week. So he really just needs for the Clippers to somehow take that Jazz series to a Game 7. Unlikely with Kawhi likely out for the season, but possible.

  65. ephus: I could see Lonzo at the #2 with Kira Lewis running the point.Lewis/Lonzo/Ingram/Zion/Hayes would be a formidible offense.

    Yeah, that makes more sense. I kind of see him as a 2 ala late career Jason Kidd.

    Alan: Donnie Nelson OUT in Dallas. Which apparently means Bob Voulgaris won that power struggle? Which cannot possibly please Luka? What the hell is in the water today?!?!

    LMAO what a shitshow. Of course, with all this dysfunction around the league Dolan hasn’t thrown his kazoo into the ring so I’m getting scared about what he might do now.

  66. @wojespn
    Charlotte Hornets guard LaMelo Ball has been voted the NBA’s Rookie of the Year, sources tell ESPN. Announcement expected soon.

    Not a surprise, though Edwards came on strong at the end.

    Quickley’s definitely gonna be All-Rookie First Team, right?

  67. I don’t think we have to fear much from Dolan this year. Going to take a couple more years before he does something.

  68. i don’t actually think there is a rift between Luka and Voulgaris… if you subscribe to the theory that TheAthletic hit piece was Donnie Nelson airing out dirty laundry as he was losing influence within the organization. .and with the news today i think that is the prevailing theory… then some of those quotes could actually just be mischaracterizations or complete fabrications…

  69. I hope the Pellies hire someone like D’Antoni, because I’d hate to see the first woman coach in the NBA get a shit show like that Pellies situation.

  70. i don’t actually think there is a rift between Luka and Voulgaris… if you subscribe to the theory that TheAthletic hit piece was Donnie Nelson airing out dirty laundry as he was losing influence within the organization. .and with the news today i think that is the prevailing theory… then some of those quotes could actually just be mischaracterizations or complete fabrications…

    Agreed. What confuses me, though, is that they’re planning on hiring a new GM. Who wants that job knowing Voulgaris is going to be the shadow GM?

  71. Djphan has forgotten more about the draft than I’ll ever know, but I disagree with his characterization of Springer as more of a combo guard. I actually think he has more playmaking chops than he was allowed to show at Tennessee because they used Keon Johnson as a primary ball handler so frequently.

    we almost always agree on stuff so i always find it interesting when we don’t agree…

    i think we do agree on the objective factors that make Springer a good prospect… the things i don’t like are subjective… i don’t think his handle is all that great… he’s a two-feet jumper… and he doesn’t look all that natural running an offense… rick barnes isn’t exactly an offensive wunderkind so it’s possible there is something hidden…. the good news is i think he could be a direct burks replacement even using him as a pg part time….

    but i think this is where our eye tests focus on different things… there is a large gap between what the #s say and what scouts are saying…. and i almost never believe the scouts but i think this might be an instance where splitting the difference could be the way to go… but there’s not much more than a feeling that i have…

  72. Paying $10M for Taijuan Walker instead of paying $30M for Trevor Bauer is working out pretty good.

    Walker had the two-seamer bending into the strike zone like Greg Maddux yesterday. I love that kind of pitching.

  73. Who wants that job knowing Voulgaris is going to be the shadow GM?

    he’s probably not a shadow gm tho… at least i don’t think he is…. donnie nelson was actually the shadow gm for a long time before he actually got the title…. that’s where he got the moniker!

    what probably happened was that voulgaris made nelson look stupid somewhere… probably on the luka pick and/or the kp trade…. and voulgaris is a known trash talker and being pretty frank with people so i have no doubt he butted heads with someone like donnie… and just like most people who can’t admit to being wrong so instead of learning from it he lashed out… and theathletic piece is him lashing out….

    so i very much doubt that bob is some shadow gm… if anything he’s probably like worldwide wes or aller… where he’s probably in the room on some decisions and may pound the table for someone but they aren’t making ALL the decisions… or at least i hope www isn’t making all the decisions…

  74. Alan: Not a surprise, though Edwards came on strong at the end.
    Quickley’s definitely gonna be All-Rookie First Team, right?

    Well, given what you just said, no he isn’t making it. He’s a guard, and LaMelo and Edwards were clearly better.
    All-Rookie 2nd Team is guaranteed, i think.

  75. Hey Hubert, i just disagreed with Alan and the comment went to moderation, so maybe the new moderator is Alan. :D

  76. Haralabob is basically what would happen if you put one of us in charge of the knicks

    On the other hand you don’t need any sort of statistical/math background to know the teenager dominating the second best professional league in the world is a great prospect.

  77. Brian, you’d have to bring back Jim Jackson and Toni Braxton too at that point, wouldn’t you?

  78. But you’re right, Alan, there’s no position restrictions on the All-Rookie teams. Then yeah, Quick was one of the Top5 rookies and deserves to be in the first team.

  79. I think the all rookie team is positionless, so IQ should definitely be on it. I bet the whole first team is guards: Ball, Edwards, Halliburton, Bane, IQ. IQ is definitely the 5th guy there, though, so he could slip to 2nd team if some voters really love Stewart or Bey.

  80. thenoblefacehumper:
    It took way too long for the consensus on the Porzingis trade to correct itself but now that it has literally imploded the Mavs’ whole franchise I think we’re there

    The Mavs had a poor offseason, multiple injuries/Covid issues in the regular season to recover from, and IMO used their roster terribly in the playoffs. I’m not sure whether to blame that on Donnie Nelson, Rick Carlisle, some bad luck or Haralabos Voulgaris, but Mark Cuban just voted on who he thinks was at fault.

    Let me give you some history since I follow the Mavs as closely as I follow the Knicks.

    Years ago when asked if he could pick one NBA player to build a franchise around Haralabos Voulgaris said Porzingis. When questioned whether he’d even take him over Giannis he said “Yes” and elaborated on why. I saw the live tweets. There’s no chance it was reported incorrectly. I responded to the thread and told him he was nuts. I went on to elaborate about some of the KP downsides that Knicks fan were already discussing at the time. Point being, it’s extremely likely that Voulgaris was instrumental in bringing KP to Dallas and I’m 100% certain they still think they won that that trade (either way we were idiots for not getting a lot more for him at that time if we were hell bent on trading him).

    IMO they have team construction and coaching issues they need to address this off season, but that franchise is not worried about the two mediocre 1st rounders they gave up for KP or KP’s production. He had a terrific year on offense. They are worried about adding the right defensive/ball handling/spacing pieces to keep Doncic happy and figuring out how to use KP with a ball dominant guard that doesn’t defend much.

    IMO, the problem there last year was Voulgaris and Carlisle. I think Donnie Nelson was just the fall guy (not that I love him either).

  81. Haralabob is basically what would happen if you put one of us in charge of the knicks

    A major improvement?

  82. They should have fired whoever thought up the trading Seth Curry for Josh Richardson

  83. KP has worn out his welcome in two places now and he’s on a bad contract. They’ll need him to stay healthy and start giving a shit on defense if they’re ever going to salvage something out of that trade.

    It’s not the two 1RPs that are the downside of that trade for them, it’s the opportunity cost of the max contract that’s the problem. That’s what many of us here wanted to avoid, the max contract. He hasn’t come close to earning that money and on top of it he has a shitty attitude.

    Glad he’s gone. 3/90 still left on his deal.

  84. We weren’t just right about Eddy Curry!

    thenoblefacehumper:
    It took way too long for the consensus on the Porzingis trade to correct itself but now that it has literally imploded the Mavs’ whole franchise I think we’re there

  85. JK47: it’s the opportunity cost of the max contract that’s the problem

    Exactly this, opportunity cost. We’ve swapped an always injured, or without stamina, ungrateful prima donna for an All-NBA player earning a lot less, which leaves us room to still improve a lot, but people keep on talking about the draft picks being late firsts instead of agreeing that yeah the Knicks won that trade BIG TIME.

  86. Djphan/Noble,

    While I admittedly haven’t watched the most college film here (not nothing though), I think Murphy is one of those prospects with a somewhat unremarkable box score whose film (if you’re a believer in your eye) shows a lot more skill there than he was allowed to show in college. His box score makes him look like an exclusively 3 and D guy, but he’s got a lot more bounce than, say, Reggie Bullock and a twitchy athlete. He’s also a terrific finisher, shooting over 60% from two point land, but on low volume (since in UVA he was basically parked in the corner where he’s automatic). Defensively he’s really solid despite the lack of steals and rebounds (his biggest weakness as a prospect imo)–really terrific man defender with the length to get into passing lanes. The fact that he showed a little bit of ball-handling here and there makes me think he has more tools in the toolbox to show, and his floor is already an archetype that the Knicks really need more of. I’m not in love enough with anyone in the early second to not gamble on someone like Murphy when he already fills a role for us.

    I like Henry but I think he’ll be available later on and am not a believer in his passing (bad A:TO and his passes are usually pretty obvious/easy from what I’ve seen) or his potential as a shooter in the NBA; Edwards is really interesting and I like him, but I haven’t watched enough of him to judge him all that much.

    Re: Sharpe over Bassey or Queta: Sharpe, to me, actually isn’t really a rim runner. He’s a hellacious rebounder with great stock numbers who is a pretty switchy, multipositional defender. He feels, much more, to me, like a Draymond Green type player, but with four extra inches and worse passing and defensive IQ (still really good at both, though). I think that’s a really useful kind of player to have even if he doesn’t ever learn how to shoot. I like him more than Queta because he’s younger and I think his passing will translate…

  87. better to the NBA, where there’s less post passing in general (where the majority of Queta’s passes came from), and I think he’s more switchable than Queta, though Queta has switchy upside too. I like Bassey a lot too and would be fine taking a chance on him, I just have a thing for really switchy guys at the 4/5 who can playmake. Bassey isn’t that but he has real offensive upside as some unholy combination of lob threat and 35% three point shooter.

  88. IMO they have team construction and coaching issues they need to address this off season, but that franchise is not worried about the two mediocre 1st rounders they gave up for KP or KP’s production. He had a terrific year on offense.

    I guarantee you, a team desperately in need of both cheap production and trade assets is not happy they have two outgoing first rounders in the next three years. That they were traded in service of bringing in what is now widely deemed to be one of the worst contracts in the NBA makes it that much worse.

    (either way we were idiots for not getting a lot more for him at that time if we were hell bent on trading him)

    You know how a lot of posters on this board identified a bunch of different red flags about Porzingis around the time of the trade? It’s quite possible a lot of people who work in NBA front offices also identified these and thus the market was just not as robust as you think.

    He had a terrific year on offense.

    I wouldn’t go this far. His TS% was lower than the league average for centers, and unlike e.g. Randle he didn’t make up for that with playmaking. If you want to say he was good on offense I wouldn’t necessarily disagree, but he absolutely tanked the Mavs on defense.

  89. but people keep on talking about the draft picks being late firsts instead of agreeing that yeah the Knicks won that trade BIG TIME.

    Well, some people have cherished narratives that they need to cling to despite massive amounts of evidence that their narrative was wrong. Some people can’t just say “welp, I was wrong about that, guess I better just take the L on that one.”

  90. Deeefense: Point being, it’s extremely likely that Voulgaris was instrumental in bringing KP to Dallas and I’m 100% certain they still think they won that that trade (either way we were idiots for not getting a lot more for him at that time if we were hell bent on trading him).

    There were two trades in the Porzingis trade – (1) getting picks and prospects for Porzingis and (2) a salary dump to clear space for the coming summer (when the Knicks FO thought they could get KD/Kyrie). The picks/prospects for Porzingis was probably selling low on Porzingis, because the league was valuing Porzingis as if he could (a) stay on the court and (b) be the guy who shined for brief moments on the Knicks. But we should really look at this part of the trade as Porzingis for DSJ and 3 or 4 first round picks, because the Knicks likely would have had to have attached 1 or 2 first round picks to salary dump Tim Hardaway Jr. and Courtney Lee for expiring contracts.

    I think the Knicks FO valued being able to package both trades into one transaction with Dallas. I have no idea whether that was a proper evaluation or whether the market for Porzingis was about to collapse once it became known that he wanted out.

  91. I still think KD told the Knicks that he was coming here, so that guides my view of the KP trade.

  92. ***Seems like there are female candidates legitimately in contention for at least the Boston, Portland, and New Orleans jobs. I’m not holding out hope for, say, both Becky Hammon and Teresa Weatherspoon to be hired in the same offseason, but it would take pressure off of each of them individually to succeed and not muck things up for future candidates.***

    How can you take pressure off of them to succeed when all but 4 coaches in the history of the league are regarded as failures?

  93. How can you take pressure off of them to succeed when all but 4 coaches in the history of the league are regarded as failures?

    If one of them fails right out of the gate but the other turns out to be, say, Steve Clifford-level competent, then it makes it that much easier for the next POBO with a vacancy to hire a woman. If only one woman gets hired and she fails — as many new coaches do, given that they are usually coming to teams that struggled the year before — then the “Maybe the NBA’s not ready for a female coach” narrative becomes louder.

  94. Am I the only person who saw the Scott Brooks news and thought about what that could mean for a possible Bradley Beal trade? Philly could obviously offer Ben Simmons and that would trump just about any offer we could make but these things normally boil down to “this is where I want to play,” right? I just can’t see who Washington can hire to convince Beal that they’re ready to compete with Milwaukee, Philly, or Brooklyn.

  95. Maybe KP took the MSG dysfunction along with him to Dallas? I’m enjoying this circus.

  96. ephus: Here is a crazy idea.Chris Paul as player-coach.

    Never mind. I checked Larry Coon’s cbafaq and player-coach is no longer allowed because it would enable circumvention of the salary cap.

  97. LaMelo Ball is “big timing” the TNT NBA crew by wearing Jackie Kennedy sunglasses during his interview to discuss winning the ROY.

  98. jokic deserved mvp but embiid is the most impactful player in today’s nba and i’m not sure if it’s all that close….

  99. Who knew; take Clint Capela out of the game and Atlanta loses its wings.

  100. Capella was towering over every Knick last week, and now seems like a little kid next to Embiid. Embiid would have made minced meat out of Noel.

  101. Hubert:
    All my posts are stuck in moderation today. Who’s the new moderator here, Z-Man?

    They got out, so obviously not…

  102. JK47: Well, some people have cherished narratives that they need to cling to despite massive amounts of evidence that their narrative was wrong. Some people can’t just say “welp, I was wrong about that, guess I better just take the L on that one.”

    There’s some gray area…the middle ground argument is that we won the trade and good riddance, but a savvy GM that didn’t have a well-established of bidding against himself could have gotten a better deal. That was my position, but it was always a “whatever” kind of emotion behind it.

  103. This is insanity. I thought Embiid outscoring Trae was a done deal but it looks like Chuck might win that bet.

  104. man, Thybulle never would have touched Trae if he attempted a natural shot. Just bc you bite on a pump fake doesn’t mean you should be called for a foul.

  105. Too bad he jumped because Trae would have shot that into the crowd.

  106. Ben Simmons is 4 for fucking 14 from the FT line. It’s absurd that he’s so bad and he’s shooting 33% for the entire playoffs. These are Ben Wallace numbers. WTF?

  107. I agree Hubert. Been on that train for a while. I think they will fix it.

    This is nuts. All with Bogdanovic out.

  108. I just can’t stop laughing at the Sixers, this might have been more embarrassing than the Bucks last night because at least they had the excuse that Durant delivered an all-time performance. The Sixers just choked the most crucial game, with a wide open eastern conference, while up 26 at home lmao.

  109. Glad I didn’t get involved in that Atlanta’s mediocre argument. A couple more injuries and Trae might win a chip!

  110. Doc has always struck me as a very overrated coach. He got carried to that 2008 title.

  111. Serious question. If Philly tries to trade Simmons this offseason what could they actually get for him? His shooting has been a disaster and Philly’s on the verge of losing this series largely because of him.

  112. Bruno Almeida:
    I just can’t stop laughing at the Sixers, this might have been more embarrassing than the Bucks last night because at least they had the excuse that Durant delivered an all-time performance. The Sixers just choked the most crucial game, with a wide open eastern conference, while up 26 at home lmao.

    I have a college buddy who’s all Philly. He told me 2 weeks ago (after feigning sympathy for me) when the Knicks season ended that his Sixers would “take care of Trae Young for me”.

    How’s it goink?

  113. They got outscored 40-19 in the 4th, it’s just a monumental choke job, there’s no way around it.

  114. And I was actually rooting for the Sixers in this series too.

    As much as the sentence, “The Knicks will make the playoffs” would’ve gotten all sorts of guffaws at the start of the season, absolutely NO ONE would’ve dared written, “The Hawks will make the Eastern Conference finals”. Yet, they now have 2 cracks at it. You gotta give to Atlanta.

  115. I’ve been a pretty big Ben Simmons defender but he’s making fewer than a third of his free throws in the playoffs

  116. I really won’t be baited into this discussion again, but if you think this 4th quarter in Philly somehow proved anything about Atlanta, that’s mediocre analysis :)

    The Jazz are starting to choke also, what a night huh.

  117. Terrific game by Paul George, I didn’t think he had this one in him. Mitchell is clearly hurting but still forcing tough shots.

  118. ben simmons is a terrific player, for a coach though – dude must cause a ton of grey hair…

  119. I went to bed at the end of the 3rd quarter with the Sixers up by 18, thinking “they’re not gonna collapse again right?”.
    But they did it AGAIN.
    And you know what? It’s right, that’s what happen when you miss free throws like they doesn’t matter and it’s well deserved.
    Embiid and Curry were the only Sixers to score a field goal in the second half, Simmons’ trade value must be at its nadir.

    Then the Jazz followed the path, so they’re three (supposedly well coached) teams melting when it matters the most.
    And still the series aren’t over.

    The craziest season ever.

  120. Thybulle and Simmons lockdown D on Trae at the end were mind expanding! ;-p
    Made Frank look like Gary Payton! Bwahaha!!!
    Delightful

    I’m rooting hard for mediocrity to make it to the Finals!

  121. thenoblefacehumper: That they were traded in service of bringing in what is now widely deemed to be one of the worst contracts in the NBA makes it that much worse.

    The key with Porzingis is health. He has not been healthy, otherwise he has been a 2bpm player (2nd in his team) in an awkward position in offense and defense. Porzingis should not be your first option offensively, but he should be more involved. I have not seen much Dallas play, but in the playoffs they were using a zone defense that I think also takes away some of what Porzingis can offer. Or at least here, I thought that Porzingis at C stopped penetration somewhat. With a zone, you take away penetration and dare the other team to shoot 3pt and midrange shots, where Porzingis average rebounding is more exposed (although he has played next to Marjanovic or Powell, which helps)

  122. Just a thought:
    If I were Philly, I’d do whatever it takes to move Simmons for Dame in the offseason. Can you imagine Dame and Embiid together? Sheeeeeeesh!

  123. Bruno Almeida: Bruno Almeida
    June 17, 2021 at 12:23 am
    I really won’t be baited into this discussion again, but if you think this 4th quarter in Philly somehow proved anything about Atlanta, that’s mediocre analysis :)

    lol

    It kinda says that they can score 40 points in the 4th quarter on the road against a team with the best record in the east that had 3 of the so-called best defenders in the league on the floor. I get that Embiid is banged up but he played 39 minutes and had 37-13-5 with 4 blocks. Trae Young has a shoulder issue, Bogdo is hurting and Hunter is out. Nobody is calling them a super team but I don’t get how anyone can continue to underestimate how good they are.

  124. If the Sixers really choke this away I have to think this would be the last gasp of the Simmons-Embiid pairing. Even with Embiid having this knee issue he’s giving them plenty in this series, they’re one of the healthier teams left standing and this Hawks team, whether “mediocre” is the right word or not, isn’t anybody’s idea of a real title contender and is really lacking in playoff experience. There’s really no excuse here for getting upset as the #1 seed and I can’t see them not making some big changes if it happens. Simmons for Lillard? Simmons for McCollum? Simmons for Beal? Simmons for Lavine? Obviously there’d have to be various other pieces in many of those but I have to think any guard capable of creating their own shot that’s even semi-available is going to be something they’d look hard at. I don’t particularly see any way for the Knicks to be involved but could be one of the first big dominos of the off-season.

  125. I don’t particularly see any way for the Knicks to be involved but could be one of the first big dominos of the off-season.

    We can be facilitators who get picks and maybe lesser players (say, Seth Curry) out of it.

  126. Puts the Thibs discussion in context. Maybe he could have made changes, but Hawks are just playing on another level than the Knicks

  127. Simmons is part of the problem. The other part is paying Tobias Harris max money and having traded all their picks for Harris and half a year of Jimmy

  128. Alan: We can be facilitators who get picks and maybe lesser players (say, Seth Curry) out of it.

    Maybe. The trades I’m envisioning would mostly be another high-priced player coming back in the other direction since obviously Philly still wants to win in the near term so generally they probably wouldn’t need a third team. If it’s someone who makes a bit less than Simmons then maybe there’s a Knicks angle but I think the extra player would be coming from the non-Sixers team most likely. Something like Simmons to Chicago, Satoransky to the Knicks and Lavine to the Sixers works on the cap with some kind of small pick compensation to the Knicks for taking Sato and probably some extra value from the Sixers to the Bulls since I guess Lavine is probably now seen as more valuable than Simmons (what a reversal that is).

  129. Z-man: lol

    It kinda says that they can score 40 points in the 4th quarter on the road against a team with the best record in the east that had 3 of the so-called best defenders in the league on the floor. I get that Embiid is banged up but he played 39 minutes and had 37-13-5 with 4 blocks.Trae Young has a shoulder issue, Bogdo is hurting and Hunter is out. Nobody is calling them a super team but I don’t get how anyone can continue to underestimate how good they are.

    It also says that if Ben Simmons could shoot free throws like Shaq instead of Ben Simmons, they would have still lost the game no matter their qualities. There’s no excuse at all for a professional basketball player to hit 35% of his free throws in a playoff run. Unless you count McMillan realizing Simmons shouldn’t be on the court before title winning coach Doc Rivers a plus for them, I’m still unconvinced.

    I’ve never said Atlanta was bad, I’m just reacting to the way they are winning. No Sixer player scored a single field goal in the last 6 minutes of the game, against the same defense that was getting crushed before.

    You just keep this semantic discussion when I have explained already what I mean by mediocre, you call the 2nd tier of teams, the 7th to 8th best teams in the league good. I call them mediocre. It’s just that. I’ll simply change the word from mediocre to good, and start calling the healthy Nets or the Suns great instead then.

    It also feels like a lot of people are so eager to give Atlanta credit to fit their narratives of Thibs did nothing wrong and the Knicks actually lost to a very good team,

  130. @TheSteinLine
    Luka Doncic, from Slovenia with his national team, on Donnie Nelson’s Mavericks exit:

    “It was kind of tough to me. I really like Donnie. I know him since I was a kid and he was the one that drafted me. It was tough for me seeing that, but I’m not the one making decisions there.”

    You hate to see it.

  131. I think it’d be foolish for the Sixers to overreact if they actually do get eliminated (and since they needed two historic choke jobs to lose Games 4 and 5, I think they still have decent odds of advancing). Look at what Morey was able to do to their team in just Year 1. I imagine Year 2 will be even better. They still have moves to make and Maxey to trade. Remember, one of the main reasons the Raptors didn’t trade Lowry is that they felt that there was still going to be a robust sign and trade market for him in the offseason and they thought teams that missed out in the playoffs would be more willing to deal more for him then than they apparently were during the regular season. Lowry on this same Sixers team for, say, Maxey and George Hill (and I guess a future first), would work for both teams. It would allow them to also pull Simmons at the end of the games and allow Lowry to run the point (and Lowry is an ice-cold-killer from the charity stripe).

  132. The key with Porzingis is health. He has not been healthy, otherwise he has been a 2bpm player (2nd in his team) in an awkward position in offense and defense. Porzingis should not be your first option offensively, but he should be more involved.

    Agreed.

    This is what happened.

    Cuban was QUOTED just the other day saying the GAME PLAN was to stick KP in the corner and “use him as a decoy” (that’s the exact quote) to create space for Doncic. In other words, they traded a great shooter like Seth Curry who cost 8m and put KP (a max player that can score in a variety of ways) in his role because they wanted more space for Doncic to get to the basket. Read that again.

    As a result, KP almost never had the ball, let alone in good spots.

    Why do you think he questioned his role on the team going forward?

    He was the good soldier and did what the coaching staff (haralabos voulgaris?) told him. However, it put incredible pressure on Doncic to score because the normal 2nd option was gelded. It also turned Hardaway (a volatile inconsistent 6th man) (look at his game 7 shooting performance) into the 2nd option. IMO, it’s literally not possible to be dumber in the game of basketball than the strategy they used.

    Defensively, there WERE real issues.

    LA went small hoping to drag KP out of the paint (kind of like they are doing to Gobert now). That caused problems. They started killing Dallas inside and on switches. That’s why Dallas went to Boban and KP together even though Boban doesn’t play much in regular season. They wanted to clog up the paint better.

    Here’s the problem.

    If the opponent goes small and takes KP out of the paint, KP is naturally going to have some issues on the perimeter against smaller players and on switches. But Dallas’s perimeter defense (Doncic/Hardaway) is also poor. So everything breaks down in the paint. KP and Doncic don’t work well together on defense as is.

  133. @TheSteinLine
    Luka Doncic, from Slovenia with his national team, on Donnie Nelson’s Mavericks exit:

    “It was kind of tough to me. I really like Donnie. I know him since I was a kid and he was the one that drafted me. It was tough for me seeing that, but I’m not the one making decisions there.”

    Not to defend Donnie (he was instrumental in drafting Dirk and Doncic and also wanted to draft Giannis but was overridden by Cuban), but most people think the core problem was either Carlisle or Haralabos Voulgaris and not Donnie. It would not shock me if Donnie gave Cuban an ultimatum about his role and power and lost.

  134. Simmons for Lillard? Simmons for McCollum? Simmons for Beal? Simmons for Lavine?

    Simmons for Randle?

    We gotta start thinking about this, guys. He’s at peak value now and he’s 12 months away from either walking away for nothing, regressing to who he’s always been, or earning a cap-killing supermax.

  135. Brian Cronin: It would allow them to also pull Simmons at the end of the games and allow Lowry to run the point (and Lowry is an ice-cold-killer from the charity stripe).

    Simmons is making $30M/year and he can’t be played at the end of games.

  136. Hubert: Simmons for Randle?

    We gotta start thinking about this, guys. He’s at peak value now and he’s 12 months away from either walking away for nothing, regressing to who he’s always been, or earning a cap-killing supermax.

    It would never happen like that but imagine going into this off season with Ben Simmons, Immanuel Quickley, RJ Barrett, and Mitchell Robinson as your nucleus and still having $30-40M to add a player or two. I’d flip Julius Randle for Ben Simmons and I wouldn’t think twice.

  137. Bruno Almeida: It also feels like a lot of people are so eager to give Atlanta credit to fit their narratives of Thibs did nothing wrong and the Knicks actually lost to a very good team,

    That’s strange, I feel like a lot of people are so eager to trash the Hawks to fit their narratives that Thibs is a mediocre coach whose team lost to a mediocre opponent because he got outcoached by the mediocre playoff coach Nate McMillan.

    (I don’t really feel that way, but if i did it would be just as utterly ridiculous as what you said.}

  138. In other words, they traded a great shooter like Seth Curry who cost 8m and put KP (a max player that can score in a variety of ways) in his role because they wanted more space for Doncic to get to the basket. Read that again.

    Or they finally succumbed to the reality that KP cannot score in a variety of ways and decided the best way to salvage this disaster would be to stand him in the corner like he’s a poor man’s Seth Curry.

  139. There really should be no Thibs Hawks narratives at this point. By now we should all be in agreement that

    a) Thibs coached the series very poorly.

    b) even if Thibs coached the best series in the world we still would have lost bc the Hawks were much better than us.

  140. In other words, they traded a great shooter like Seth Curry who cost 8m and put KP (a max player that can score in a variety of ways) in his role because they wanted more space for Doncic to get to the basket. Read that again.

    I’ve read it a number of times and it’s a very charitable way of interpreting their actual conclusion, which is that 3PA are the only reliable way for 7’3″ Kristaps Porzingis to generate efficient offense.

  141. Hoo-boy. From a Shams & Co. piece on the mess in New Orleans, which continues even without Stan Van:

    Parting ways with Stan Van Gundy after just one season is not the biggest problem facing the New Orleans Pelicans. They have been unable to put together the right elements to make rising star Zion Williamson and his family happy, and multiple sources have told The Athletic that certain family members want Williamson on another team.

  142. Simmons is making $30M/year and he can’t be played at the end of games.

    Shaq and Howard had the same issue. I think he’s worth the trade off. But yes, don’t get me wrong, holy shit, dude, work on your fucking free throws, you moron.

  143. I have to agree with Z-Man on this one. Trae Young is having one of those star-becomes-superstar playoffs. If he does this one more time against the Sixers even getting crushed against a healthy, or semi-healthy Nets would still leave him as a top 5 or at worst a top 10 player in the NBA.

    Atlanta needs to upgrade around him to be a top contender but the narrative that says they’re mediocre is dead, imho.

  144. Z-man: That’s strange, I feel like a lot of people are so eager to trash the Hawks to fit their narratives that Thibs is a mediocre coach whose team lost to a mediocre opponent because he got outcoached by the mediocre playoff coach Nate McMillan.

    (I don’t really feel that way, but if i did it would be just as utterly ridiculous as what you said.}

    Yup, read the last paragraph and ignored the rest, seems like the basis for a very non-mediocre discussion. I already have to deal with enough bad faith argumentation in my line of work to entertain this any further.

  145. this simmons phenomena only existed during these playoffs… almost as soon as the playoffs started his free throw shooting has gotten half as worse…. if he shot normally on his free throws like he has throughout his career it would have ended all this nonsense….

  146. When I read about LaMelo winning Rookie of the Year and how Charlotte moved up from #8 to #3 in the draft lottery last year to get him, I get pissed off all over again that the Knicks never, ever, ever have that kind of luck in the lottery.

  147. Hubert: Simmons for Randle?

    We gotta start thinking about this, guys. He’s at peak value now and he’s 12 months away from either walking away for nothing, regressing to who he’s always been, or earning a cap-killing supermax.

    I certainly wouldn’t be averse to that but I’m pretty certain they’re going to be looking for a guard. I just don’t know that you can win a title with Tobias Harris as your best perimeter shot creator.

  148. d-mar: the Knicks never, ever, ever have that kind of luck in the lottery

    Sponsored by… the frozen envelope! :P

  149. cybersoze: Sponsored by… the frozen envelope! :P

    i think he should have qualified it by ending with “in the last 35 years”…

  150. “KP can score in a variety of ways” is a Strat-speak cliche. You see, it’s never KP’s fault that he never seems to reach his potential, it’s everybody else around him who is the problem. Always so many obstacles standing in the Unicorn’s way.

    Just like how it wasn’t Phil Jackson’s fault that the Knicks gave Joakim Noah a 4/72 contract. That one’s on Steve Mills somehow, even though Noah was the player Phil wanted because pinch post.

    We have to keep having these arguments not because we’re mean and like to pick on Strat, but because Strat insists on making the same tired arguments in a futile effort to prove he was right about certain things.

    KP is a terrible player to have on a max contract. He vanished in a winnable playoff series. He’s brittle AF. He doesn’t play defense anymore. He has three years left on his terrible contract, making him a highly toxic asset. Everybody knows it. Let’s stop with the “KP is so good doe” narrative until the guy actually does something worth a shit on a basketball court.

  151. d-mar:
    When I read about LaMelo winning Rookie of the Year and how Charlotte moved up from #8 to #3 in the draft lottery last year to get him, I get pissed off all over again that the Knicks never, ever, ever have that kind of luck in the lottery.

    Hey, Warriors fans get to talk all the shit about Jonny Flynn over Steph Curry, but they picked Wiseman over LaMelo, and we don’t even have to say that it will haunt them. They would have earned a 6 seed easily if LaMelo had played 50 games for them. They already lost.

  152. pepper: i think he should have qualified it by ending with “in the last 35 years”…

    My take was to make proof we probably rigged that 85 draft, and we payed for it for 3 decades. Now i think we’re getting lucky, RJ was luck, although we were the worst team in the league, we only had like 40% to be in the Top3 and we made it. This year we won not one tie-breaker, but two. This is going to be a fantastic decade for the Knicks. We deserve it. ;)

  153. KP is likely better than what he showed in the playoffs, but it’s concerning that Dallas didn’t think he was worth more than as a spot up shooter.

    Also KP plays with one of the best playmakers in the league and still finished with a TS% barely over league average.

    KP, when healthy and playing defense well, is a strong role player and not worth near the max especially considering his injury history.

  154. cybersoze: My take was to make proof we probably rigged that 85 draft, and we payed for it for 3 decades. Now i think we’re getting lucky, RJ was luck, although we were the worst team in the league, we only had like 40% to be in the Top3 and we made it. This year we won not one tie-breaker, but two. This is going to be a fantastic decade for the Knicks. We deserve it. ;)

    yeah…that is what I keep muttering to my self..”we’re due….we’re due”…

  155. Idk. I saw Trae Young go around Thybulle as if he were a statue for an easy layup and then a minute later fake him into committing a 3 point foul as if he was a pogo stick, both near the end of last night’s game. I think that Frank would have done much better on both of those plays.

  156. I think that Frank would have done much better on both of those plays.

    If only there was some similar example of Frank trying to guard Trae one-on-one in a crucial high leverage situation…

  157. The most insane thing Philly has done in the last few years is let Jimmy god damn Butler walk in a sign-and-trade that netted them Josh Richardson. Just about all of their current problems can be traced back to that decision. This of course gave them the cap space to sign…Al Horford.

    The fit with Butler wasn’t ideal but he’s a talent you just can’t hemorrhage like that. Hell, they were an insane Kahwi shot from possibly winning the god damn finals during his lone year on the team. I have a feeling they would be sailing through the East right now if they still had Butler.

  158. The entire theory of KP as a player rests on him being a plus defensive C who can also shoot 3s. That lets you play 5-out for max spacing on offense without making the typical defensive sacrifice that goes along with that if you’re playing a big wing as your “center”. If he can’t defend, which is a real question going forward from a physical perspective, then the whole thing falls apart completely. If you play him at C you can’t defend and if you play him at PF his offensive advantages go away completely; there’s nothing special about his shooting ability relative to other PFs in this day and age. He has to be able to regain his defensive form or there’s just no there there and discussing how he’s used on offense seems kind of besides the point to me.

  159. Is it definite that we all watch the games/plays we talk about in here and be fair about them?

  160. thenamestsam:
    The entire theory of KP as a player rests on him being a plus defensive C who can also shoot 3s. That lets you play 5-out for max spacing on offense without making the typical defensive sacrifice that goes along with that if you’re playing a big wing as your “center”. If he can’t defend, which is a real question going forward from a physical perspective, then the whole thing falls apart completely. If you play him at C you can’t defend and if you play him at PF his offensive advantages go away completely; there’s nothing special about his shooting ability relative to other PFs in this day and age. He has to be able to regain his defensive form or there’s just no there there and discussing how he’s used on offense seems kind of besides the point to me.

    Agreed, and he also needs to eat a big helping of humble pie so that he can at least recognize his own flaws and what he needs to do. Oh yeah, and stay healthier…

  161. JK47: If only there was some similar example of Frank trying to guard Trae one-on-one in a crucial high leverage situation…

    Frank stayed with Trae for his first 2 fakes on that play. Thybulle stood there sleeping and never moved as Young went around him for an easy layup. And then Thybulle jumping in the air on a 3 point fake would have had Clyde out of his seat.

  162. The Hawks are in the second round up 3-2 against the number one seed in the east. It’s not semantics. You’re using the word “mediocre” incorrectly if you think only one or two teams every year are. “good.”

    Not sure why you can’t admit they’re a good team. They are. Yeah they started out the season poorly but they have one of the best young PG’s in the league, one of the best centers in the league and a lot of good two way players. They’re the definition of a good team.

    It feels like you’re the one who won’t admit you were wrong about them.

  163. Thybulle shot 30% from three while Frank shot 48%. That’s not a rounding error.

  164. why did they let Butler go again? I was thinking that last night. googled it but couldn’t find anything with an explanation.

    Butler and Embiid alone would be unstoppable. They could sit Simmons in the 4Q if they wanted to.

    As far as I recall, he couldn’t have gotten a max from Miami if they didn’t oblige, right?

  165. Hubert:
    There really should be no Thibs Hawks narratives at this point. By now we should all be in agreement that

    a) Thibs coached the series very poorly.

    b) even if Thibs coached the best series in the world we still would have lost bc the Hawks were much better than us.

    Agreed. I’d probably just say “poorly” instead of “very poorly” re Thibs, but as the argument goes, the Hawks are good. Better than this year’s Knicks, certainly. We might have been a bit more competitive with a few more tweaks, but we were going to lose that series.

    Unless, of course, Frank played big minutes, locked down Trae, and knocked down a ton of corner threes…

  166. you nailed it TSAM, kp at the 4 is about effective as melo at the 3…neither is nearly quick/mobile enough for the position…

    that and they both seem to think the game of basketball is only played on one side of the floor…

  167. i don’t know, delusion may be pulling double duty as a verb – but, i think if we win that first game against the hawks, the hawks would’ve folded like the heat folded against the bucks…

  168. Sorry, Geo, but I can’t imagine that happening. They just had SO much more firepower than us, especially since Randle and Rj were shooting so poorly relative to their regular season performance, that I think at best we would have taken it to 6 games.

  169. the whole point was never that Thibs could have beaten the Hawks. It was that red flags were being raised that could kill us one day when we’re not facing such a superior team.

    Thibs is going to follow a similar arc to Budz, I think. Budz was amazing in year 1, taking a 44 win 7 seed to 60 wins and the best record in the NBA. He deservedly won coach of the year. He is a damn good coach.

    But he’s one of those guys that don’t know how to mix it up, a coach who won’t attack a team’s weakness bc “it’s not what they do”, or who want try something that would work bc “it’s not what got them there.” Budz got hammered after game 5, and rightfully so. He knows how to throw rock, and he throws it every time. If you can’t mix in paper and scissor here and there, you’re going to be snuffed out in the playoffs.

    Dwayne Casey was a similar guy, too. Also a coach of the year. Needed to make way for Nick Nurse, just like Budz is gonna have to make way for someone.

    Fortunately for Thibs, we are a long way away from needing to make that change. He’s a damn fine coach and he can keep doing what he’s doing until it bites us. But it probably will.

  170. how is it that they had so much firepower than us? we had the same record….

    if it’s about offensive firepower than yes they have more offensive firepower but that goes for most of the nba.. we were 23rd in the league on offense…. our strength was supposed to be our defense which we were in the top 5 in the nba…. and we’re supposed to be able to figure out how to defend the #8 offensive team in the league…. and we did relatively ok …. except we couldn’t figure out their defense against us faster than they figured out how to exploit our defense…. they have a good offensive team but these guys aren’t exactly the 2017 golden state warriors… if we can’t figure it out then what’s the point of thibs then?

    we also lost a game 1 which we probably could’ve won for any number of reasons… and the series would’ve looked a lot different… but this narrative that there was a giant chasm in between the hawks and the knicks and we really had zero chance in the series is not really supported by the evidence…. if it was then the narrative should be that we had a lot of fake progress during the regular season held together by the laws of volatility and empty arenas and everything including our defense turned into a pumpkin…. which might be true but i dont’ see anyone making that argument….

    it’s a 4/5 matchup…. all this handwringing about how much better these guys were is just hindsight…. and nobody really was talking about how much better these guys were until well after the series was underway….

  171. and this perception that the hawks were so much better than us had a lot to do with how well they defended… and how poorly randle played… i don’t think anyone thought randle would be that bad…. and if he played even a little better the tenor of the series is a lot different….

  172. Well Dallas can now finally find a coach that can bring out the true greatness of Kristaps Porzingis

  173. except we couldn’t figure out their defense against us faster than they figured out how to exploit our defense….

    I don’t think we would have figured them out if it was a 21 game series. We would have tried the same stuff over and over in hopes of “just executing better.”

  174. if it was then the narrative should be that we had a lot of fake progress during the regular season held together by the laws of volatility and empty arenas and everything including our defense turned into a pumpkin…. which might be true but i dont’ see anyone making that argument….

    Ultimately, I do believe this is exactly what happened. But another critical factor is that we weren’t a bubble team. We didn’t have the quick turnaround that 24 other teams had, so our starters logged huge minutes in a season where everyone else was either hurt, sick, or being load managed. That made a big difference. And then we just got really hot at the end. That kind of thing happens.

    It was a great year, but a sobering finish.

    EDIT: that’s not to say all our progress was fake. We raised our floor to a playoff team, and that’s major progress.

  175. Open coaching jobs (in order of desirability):
    1. Boston
    2. Dallas
    3. Indiana
    4. Portland
    5. Washington
    6. Orlando

    * Atlanta is not really open, even though McMillan still is “interim”. If he cannot reach a deal, that becomes the most desirable job.
    ** If Budd is out in Milwaukee, that becomes the most interesting job, even above Atlanta.

  176. Stein just suggested Carlisle could land in Milwaukee if Budz gets canned (which he should if the Nets win this series). Carlisle would do VERY well there.

    I’m not sure on the order. I feel like if Milwaukee or Atlanta open up, then those are both hugely desirable jobs because of the talent on hand. Boston has Tatum and Brown and an imperfect roster around them. Ditto Dallas once you get past Luka, and that could get messy in a hurry if he’s not happy with the roster. With Portland, there’s the risk of Dame wanting out if things go further south. Washington has that to a degree with Beal, but they’re a mediocre-to-bad team to begin with, so you go in knowing it may just be a rebuild. And Orlando feels like a job without a lot of current talent, but also no pressure. You get to build from the ground up, like Atkinson did in Brooklyn, only this time armed with lots of draft picks.

  177. ephus:
    Open coaching jobs (in order of desirability):
    1.Boston
    2.Dallas
    3.Indiana
    4.Portland
    5.Washington
    6.Orlando

    *Atlanta is not really open, even though McMillan still is “interim”.If he cannot reach a deal, that becomes the most desirable job.
    **If Budd is out in Milwaukee, that becomes the most interesting job, even above Atlanta.

    I forgot New Orleans. I would slot the Pelicans at 3, above Indiana but below Dallas.

  178. Before the NYK-ATL series i had the impression and the feeling and the false confident that we were gonna sweep them.
    The Full Arena effect was a factor.
    We choked.
    Atlanta didn’t and we lost our confidence.
    Atlanta definitely has better roster but it was obvious that we underperformed and that Thibs play it safe instead of adjusting to the occasions.

    Could we have played much better?
    2nd half of the 2nd game proves that we could.
    But…We didn’t…

    Atlanta’s Playoff results don’t change Knicks playoffs performance.
    We were bad.

    But Also Atlanta is Pretty Good.

    2 separate things.

  179. Imagine knowing you could coach Doncic for the next ten years and instead, leave. That’s how fucked up Dallas is right now.

  180. djphan:

    but this narrative that there was a giant chasm in between the hawks and the knicks and we really had zero chance in the series is not really supported by the evidence….

    it’s a 4/5 matchup…. all this handwringing about how much better these guys were is just hindsight…. and nobody really was talking about how much better these guys were until well after the series was underway….

    Actually if we re-read the threads in the days before the serie started some of us pointed out that the Hawks have more offensive talent, that the regular season sweep was suspect due to injuries and circumstances (i.e. different coaches) and that we would have needed to grind it out to win a difficult serie.

    It’s not a coincidence that in the poll more than 20 of us picked the Hawks to win.

    But for the most part those “birds of ill omen” were scorned from the majority of the bloggers.

    Now the pendulum has swinged in the other direction, history is rewritten and the new narrative is that we were doomed from the start.
    We weren’t, but we were totally unable to adjust to their defense, we melted in the last three games and shot like dogs all serie long.
    It happens. I hope players and coaches learned something.

  181. ephus:
    Open coaching jobs (in order of desirability):
    1.Boston
    2.Dallas
    3.Indiana
    4.Portland
    5.Washington
    6.Orlando

    *Atlanta is not really open, even though McMillan still is “interim”.If he cannot reach a deal, that becomes the most desirable job.
    **If Budd is out in Milwaukee, that becomes the most interesting job, even above Atlanta.

    I forgot New Orleans. I would slot the Pelicans at 3, above Indiana but below Dallas.

    A Lot of interesting jobs, I’m curious to see if there’s some kind of “musical chairs” with people changing place instead of taking a year off…
    I think Carlisle and Stotts are the two that have a chance to land a new gig immediately.

  182. Love to see Dallas self-immolate, especially with another pick coming to the Knicks in 2 years.

    This is the type of shitshow that ends with Janis Porzingis being named POBO. Just a beautiful mess (for Knicks fans at least).

  183. And to add to the Julius All Nba thread topic
    I’d prefer him to have played much much better in the playoffs and not get the all nba votes.

    Playing Great in the Playoffs is what really matters.

    Reg season’s awards and records are fun but slightly distractive.

  184. KP can put it together for short stretches of time and look awesome.

    The problem is that it never lasts. So far 40% of that contract is over and he was clearly not worth the max during that 40%.

    I wouldn’t be surprised if he has one great season. Maybe even two. But most of the time there are just lots of excuses for why he’s not playing well.

  185. It’s not a coincidence that in the poll more than 20 of us picked the Hawks to win.

    sorry jennifer, ain’t no us about it.

    hawks in 5 was a party of 1.

    and brian come on. calling simmons a moron for not practicing free throws? ever try to help someone through a problem like that? would be easier to teach dolan bell’s inequality.

  186. Before the Knicks-Atlanta series, the widely-held belief was that the Knicks had a “coaching advantage” because Nate McMillan was a “bad playoff coach.” In each of the first two rounds, McMillan has been the better game tactician.

    I am still not certain how Atlanta was able to make its run last night with a backcourt of Trae Young and Lou Williams. Philly was not able to score against two guards who are widely perceived to be among the worst defenders in the league. One of the advantages of Hack-a-Simmons was that it made defense irrelevant on those possessions. There were a lot of possessions, however, where Atlanta played straight defense against Philly and held their own.

    Great job, Nate.

  187. Late to the party as usual..but..

    Holy shit! Rick Carlisle too? He’s definitely a re-tread who deserves another job. Anywhere. Boston would be GREAT for him

  188. – Kristaps Porzingis is statistically the new Melo.

    – Nate McMillan is keeping the Atlanta job. He’ll likely never have a season this good again and be fired in 3 years (because where the hell does Atlanta go from here long term), but that job is his and the longer they take to pay him is the higher his price goes up.

    – Luka Doncic and Zion Williamson are supermax locks and I highly doubt they get traded. That being said, it’s going to be a very interesting off season. It would be wild if GSW took its 0.5% odds and won the draft lottery then flipped Cade Cunningham, the Wolves’ pick, and James Wiseman to Dallas for Luka Doncic.

  189. ptmilo:
    It’s not a coincidence that in the poll more than 20 of us picked the Hawks to win.

    sorry jennifer, ain’t no us about it.

    hawks in 5 was a party of 1.

    This is the first time someone call me Jennifer :-)

    Good call on the “Hawks in 5” if you’re the lonely voter,
    but I wrote “win” not “win in 5” and votes for an Hawks win (in whatever number of games) were 22 out of 109, including 2 for an Hawks’ sweep.

    So we have one winner of the lottery but a few that thought it would not be so easy.

  190. A Zion’s trade request can have unexpected consequences on the league,
    there are already many owners that are tired of players empowerment and contracts being meaningless.
    That could be the last straw.

  191. I don’t think it was a secret that the Hawks had better individual pieces, especially offensively. The Hawks had a terrible defensive rep coming into the series and I think we were justified on thinking Randle would eviscerate them as he did during the season.

    Kudos to the Hawks for playing some excellent defense, but we absolutely shit the bed offensively missing shots we made all season.

  192. Bell’s Theorem is the collective name for a family of results, all of which involve the derivation, from a condition on probability distributions inspired by considerations of local causality, together with auxiliary assumptions usually thought of as mild side-assumptions, of probabilistic predictions about the results of spatially separated experiments that conflict, for appropriate choices of quantum states and experiments, with quantum mechanical predictions.

    that is one heck of a sentence…anyone got the cliff notes on what this “thing” actually is/means???

  193. an rj barrett stan account: – Luka Doncic and Zion Williamson are supermax locks and I highly doubt they get traded. That being said, it’s going to be a very interesting off season. It would be wild if GSW took its 0.5% odds and won the draft lottery then flipped Cade Cunningham, the Wolves’ pick, and James Wiseman to Dallas for Luka Doncic.

    Luka is untouchable unless he demands a trade. There is no way in hell any sane GM would trade an under-contract Doncic for any package available in the league right now. Cunningham looks like a superstar in the making, but he hasn’t yet played a minute in the toughest league on earth. I don’t think I need to say much about James Wiseman, who strikes me as a guy who’ll soon go from highly-compensated #2 overall pick to a prove-it 1-year-contract journeyman who’s still “trying to figure it out.”

    Luka is a durable top-5 player right this moment and he’s 2-3 years from entering his prime. Maybe it’s just me, but I’m not trading a perennial MVP candidate for a package centered around a guy whose YouTube highlights begin with him roasting the Texas Southern, Oral Roberts and Oakland defenses.

  194. geo: that is one heck of a sentence…anyone got the cliff notes on what this “thing” actually is/means???

    nice try, Jimmy

  195. I mean this is a knicks blog so we are gonna have a bit of a bias… but nobody was talking like we were going to get obliterated off the floor and we had no chance… that only happened after the series was well underway and it was clear that randle was having difficulties… whether that was due to coverage… his own ego or just plainluck… that’s where the change in perception came from…

    if you told me that randle would play that badly i would’ve been amazed if we won even a game too… that’s basically what it boiled down to and we would’ve gotten obliterated by any and most teams when that happens because nearly every playoff team had better offensive players than us…

  196. Max:
    A Zion’s trade request can have unexpected consequences on the league,
    there are already many owners that are tired of players empowerment and contracts being meaningless.
    That could be the last straw.

    That’s obviously how billionaires would look at it, but the rules are collectively agreed to by labor and ownership. Dallas wouldn’t be worried about losing Luka Doncic if they could just sign a bunch of guys that would make his life easier, but ownership decided on salary caps. Owners hate the player empowerment movement, but these guys employ people who:

    – Draft Kevin Knox over basically everyone that went in picks 10-20.
    – Give Al Horford and Tobias Harris $250M+ in salary while letting Jimmy Butler leave.
    – Trade 2 1st round picks for a 7’3” beanpole with bad knees and then give that guy a max contract.
    – Sign LeBron James and then say “hey you know what? Forget shooters; let’s go out and get rough riders like Lance Stephenson.”
    – Actually trade Luka Doncic.
    – Give Andrew Wiggins a max contract.
    – say “nah we don’t need good basketball players, send Caris LeVert and Jarrett Allen to the Midwest and we’ll just take Victor Oladipo.”

    If owners want players to stay put, they need to make better hires. Stop hiring shit GMs and shit head coaches who won a playoff series in 2007.

  197. Also, we lost the series to the Hawks because guys couldn’t make shots. The Knicks weren’t exposed; the entire country just underestimated Atlanta. If we were in a series against any of Brooklyn, Milwaukee, Philly, Boston, or Miami, none of us would have been *confident* about our chances to win four of seven. We, the basketball watchers of America, did not believe in Atlanta and they’re proving everyone wrong. As far as the Knicks go, they probably played better defense against Atlanta than Philly and their 3 All-NBA defenders are, but the offense just wasn’t ready to play. Derrick Rose ran out of gas, Julius Randle got space jammed, and RJ Barrett was 20 years old so no slander formed against him shall prosper. We needed shot makers and easy bucket getters before that series and all the playoffs do is expose the holes in your team. If the Knicks had a better offense, that’s a different series.

  198. an rj barrett stan account: – Give Al Horford and Tobias Harris $250M+ in salary while letting Jimmy Butler leave.

    They didn’t have a choice with Butler. He left because he hated their culture, didn’t like playing for Brett Brown.

  199. Max: A Zion’s trade request can have unexpected consequences on the league, there are already many owners that are tired of players empowerment and contracts being meaningless.
    That could be the last straw.

    If Zion gets his wish and is traded to the Knicks BEFORE the last straw, it’s good for me. ;)

  200. cybersoze: If Zion gets his wish and is traded to the Knicks BEFORE the last straw, it’s good for me. ;)

    Current CBA expires after the 2023-24 season with a mutual chance to opt out after the 2022-2023 season, so we need to move fast, before the next lockout… :-)

  201. The Hawks regular season record is irrelevant bc they started out so poorly and fired their coach and then played outstanding ball the second half of the season.

    We had a nice win streak to close out the season but the hawks were winning even more games than us in the second half. They’re a better team and we’re predicted to be so. We overperformed in the regular season and they underperformed in the first part of the season.

    I’m just saying they aren’t mediocre. They’re good. If they were mediocre Philly would be taking care of business.

  202. And what of the others
    In some way all my brothers
    Sitting on the very top
    Could not hear the call to stop
    Behind locked doors the eyes of men
    Who take what don’t belong to them
    From those who seek the bright and starry
    Were threatened with “You will be sorry.”

    i should have known…

  203. They didn’t have a choice with Butler. He left because he hated their culture, didn’t like playing for Brett Brown.

    IIRC, the reporting from the time suggested there were definitely tensions but nothing irreparable. Philly was the only team who could give him the five year max anyway and I doubt he would’ve passed that up to walk.

    Hell, if anything they could’ve just fired Brown one season sooner than they actually did. Butler is good enough to justify sacrificing a middling coach.

  204. Bruno, please don’t use the word “mediocre” ever again, here at KB it’s a trigger word, just like “frank” is, and once used can take over a thread or even be talked about on multiple threads just because of one single reference. LOL

  205. tate making first team ahead of IQ has got to be some sort of fertitta blackmail shit

  206. IIRC, the reporting from the time suggested there were definitely tensions but nothing irreparable. Philly was the only team who could give him the five year max anyway and I doubt he would’ve passed that up to walk.

    Hell, if anything they could’ve just fired Brown one season sooner than they actually did. Butler is good enough to justify sacrificing a middling coach.

    I agree that you fire Brown before letting a superstar walk — especially at that point on the win curve — but Butler’s own words on the Redick podcast suggest that he really, really didn’t like the culture. Including players.

  207. i watched this show on neutrinos the other day…how these little sub-atomic particles can actually change their characteristics based on the environment around them…and, how it could possibly be tied in to that dark matter stuff that’s damn near everywhere and holding this whole creation thing together…

    i’ll be honest, i didn’t really get it…i know there’s really weird shit that goes on with quantum physics, that stuff requires really focused knowledge or instinctual comprehension that i just do not posses…

    even with pretty pictures and someone dumbing it down as much as possible – some of the implications are just way too complex for me to completely grasp…

    i mean how crazy is it that these infinitely small “things” have marching orders from god knows where…with the right data, damn near everything is predictable, i get that…

    bottom-line, i’m pretty sure the big bang was no accident and we’re all existing inside some freaky matrix thing…

    yeah, and i’m also pretty sure it’s only a matter of time before one of these collider machines “successfully” cracks the coconut, opens up some weird negative zone and space zombies come along to eat our brains…

  208. Yeah, I doubt that the Sixers would have let Brown get in the way of Butler’s re-signing if that would have done it. Butler met with Miami as soon as free agency started and told them he was willing to sign with Miami without a sign and trade, so what could they do? Them then getting Richardson so that Butler could get the max was better than getting nothing.

  209. This isn’t a new thing, but it’s still pretty funny how Bud has gone from bum to hero to bum to hero to fired to not fired all in the span of a few games.

  210. ***it’s still pretty funny how Bud has gone from bum to hero to bum to hero to fired to not fired all in the span of a few games.***

    “If you don’t like the weather in Jackson Hole, just wait five minutes” could be equally applied to any coach in the NBA. (besides Fizdale.)

  211. geo: that is one heck of a sentence…anyone got the cliff notes on what this “thing” actually is/means???

    Bell’s inequalities deal with two concepts in quantum physics: superposition and correlation. Superposition is the property of a particle being in different states at the same time (the famous example of Schrödinger’s cat being dead and alive at the same time, ofc such a big system cannot mantain its quantum properties and is only an example). Correlation is the property of a particle state being in relation to other particle’s state, for example, a photon of light can have polarization in the opposite direction of a different photon.

    The combination of superposition and correlation makes a paradoxical effect (EPR paradox), where correlated particles, after being separated and being subjected to different experiments that classically would destroy correlation, still show correlation. For example, a pair of photons correlated with the same polarization travel some distance and face two different polarizers, at angle of 45 degrees of their polarization. In this case, each photon should pass 50% of the time, but somehow, both pass at the same time or none at all. Why does each photon know what the other did (or is going to do)? This bothered Einstein a lot, which though of it as a “spooky” action at distance.

    Bell devised an experiment that would differentiate quantum mechanics from alternative explanations. This is not easy because it is very hard to emit (or detect) a single photon. So Bell’s experiment concerns with the average of a big number of experiments (so you can use a ray of light instead of single photons). It seems difficult to distinguish a ray of pairs of photons with quantum correlations, from a ray of pairs of ‘classical’ photons that happen to have opposite polarizations, but there is a difference: the…

  212. Bell’s inequalities.

    … I did not reach the word limit but still got a couple of words out.

  213. Looking a bit into it, I think that the Bell’s experiment uses averages for the probabilistic nature of the experiment, and not because it is hard to detect or emit single photons.

  214. thanks iserp :)

    since milo sent me out to the internet to play fetch, been doing some reading, I’m sort of, just a little bit, kind of getting the details…

    but what exactly does it mean – what’s the big picture???

    is it that randomness and chaos are only illusions?

  215. iserp: Bell’s inequalities deal with two concepts in quantum physics: superposition and correlation […]

    Congratulating IQ for being selected to all rookies 2nd team, and iserp for being selected to all IQ 1st team. Onwards and upwards!

  216. Ingmarrrr: Congratulating IQ for being selected to all rookies 2nd team, and iserp for being selected to all IQ 1st team. Onwards and upwards!

    Haha, i love this blog! ;)
    Congrats IQ! Congrats iserp! :)

  217. geo: but what exactly does it mean – what’s the big picture???

    is it that randomness and chaos are only illusions?

    It is a bit the other way around.

    Quantum theories make a really nice set of predictions that are proven to be true. However, some people still expected that quantum randomness is just some way of representing the effects of a true underlying theory (that we do not know yet), which is deterministic although perhaps very complex. So, quantum randomness would be an illusion, and the truth behind it would be deterministic.

    Bell’s inequalities prove that the randomness is real, and not an illusion in front of a deterministic theory.

  218. The Celtics are trading Kemba Walker, the No. 16 overall pick in the 2021 draft and a 2025 second-round draft pick to Oklahoma City for Al Horford, Moses Brown and a 2023 second-round pick, sources tell ESPN.

    Woj Bomb. So much for Kemba coming here.

  219. I am sitting here watching Gordon Ramsay make scrambled eggs in a bag and Iserp is dropping bombs. Sounds about right.

    Watch Kemba lead the league in scoring in OKC.

    Definitely a strong move from Stevens, dumping his guy for the old guy.

  220. I don’t even wanna know what Boston is thinking. Either they’ve completely lost their marbles or Kemba is more hurt that we know

  221. Totes McGoats as Totes McGoats:
    I don’t even wanna know what Boston is thinking. Either they’ve completely lost their marbles or Kemba is more hurt that we know

    I take that back. I completely hot take’d it without considering the money for Boston.

    I wouldn’t recommend it, but if the Knicks think Kemba is salvageable, then he can easily be had. We all know Presti isn’t gonna keep Kemba

  222. Owen: Watch Kemba lead the league in scoring in OKC.

    Feels about right:

    “First Horford, now Kemba: We’re going to brand this move — absorb a bad contract, rehabilitate the player and then move him for another distressed contract and a first round pick — the Sam Presti. As one exec texted, a Kemba-for-Porzingis swap next year seems inevitable.”

    https://twitter.com/SIChrisMannix/status/1405880913410637827

  223. Kemba was often hurt with Boston and wanted out anyway. I think that was probably mutual. He can still play when healthy, but it has been awhile since he’s been 100%. Unlike some other players with injury histories that are still young and can potentially get back to 100%, Kemba is on the wrong side of 30 and hurt. Boston took their shot, but injuries and Covid took a toll. They still have a couple of major pieces. All they need to do is retool and they are right back in the mix.

  224. The 16th overall pick seems like a hefty price to pay for what basically amounts to luxury tax savings (Horford and Kemba both have two years remaining on their deals). Maybe Boston values Moses Brown highly, but you can’t really play him with Timelord who they should value more highly.

    C- for Boston, B+ for OKC in my view.

  225. Dallas is now 50% of the way to correcting their ship. With Nelson and Carlisle out, all they have to do now is get rid of Haralabos Voulgaris and Cuban and they’ll be on their way. OK, so maybe they’ll have to settle for 75% because they are stuck with Cuban.

    That ship can turned very quickly. They took the Clippers to 7 games despite a horrible game plan. They have a very good team if they tweak their offense and bring in a solid two way player.

  226. i think horford’s last year isn’t guaranteed but i still think that’s a high price to get rid of one year of that contract….

  227. Presti is eventually going to own so many 1st round picks he won’t know what to do with them. An NBA team only has room for 15 players. 15 kids can’t win in the NBA at a high level for at least for 5-6 years assuming they draft well. He also probably won’t be able to trade the excess picks for a star because they’ll suck for a few more years and no one wants to play in OKC anyway. If his plan is to become a serious contender in 2027 or 2028 he has a good plan.

  228. I wouldn’t recommend it, but if the Knicks think Kemba is salvageable, then he can easily be had. We all know Presti isn’t gonna keep Kemba

    I thought it would have been a great move for us to get him with picks but I can understand Boston wanting a player back and we just didn’t have one to give them.

    OKC is not gonna pay us to take him.

  229. Dallas is now 50% of the way to correcting their ship. With Nelson and Carlisle out, all they have to do now is get rid of

    Porzingis.

  230. Presti is eventually going to own so many 1st round picks he won’t know what to do with them. An NBA team only has room for 15 players. 15 kids can’t win in the NBA at a high level for at least for 5-6 years assuming they draft well. He also probably won’t be able to trade the excess picks for a star because they’ll suck for a few more years and no one wants to play in OKC anyway. If his plan is to become a serious contender in 2027 or 2028 he has a good plan.

    We were literally part of a deal in which he painlessly traded up to get Poku. He’s basically set up a situation in which trading up will always be an option if he identifies someone he really likes in the draft.

    If you want to argue a team like Knicks shouldn’t pursue the strategy to this extreme because they’re better off trying to entice elite free agents that’s sensible, but it’s weird for you to criticize it while at the same time acknowledging OKC literally can’t play that game.

  231. Strat, you know OKC is in 1,000 times a better position than us, right?

    Is there anyone here who would rather have what we have right now than what OKC has?

    There is, isn’t there? I know there is.

  232. I’d love to see us make a trade like this and gain draft capital by helping out another team but where there is also some upside in the players we take on. It doesn’t feel like we’ll use all our space this summer (or at least, it doesn’t feel like we should given who is available.)

    When I looked yesterday I reckoned a trade with NO for their tenth pick for taking one or both of Adams and Bledsoe could work. Both are hugely overpaid but both could conceivably make the rotation and would render e.g. resigning Noel obsolete. In Bledsoe’s case his deal is only guaranteed 3.9m after next year. (Adams’ deal admittedly may be too long to be palatable).

    Even if we’re determined not to draft three players, 10 is a much better asset to move up from or trade for a vet. Or if we pick there, Moody or Giddey are likely to be available. We could also trade up from 19 and 21 to late lottery as well and pick, say, 10 and 14ish… all without giving up any actual assets and picking up potentially useful vets.

    What do people think?

  233. Bell’s inequalities prove that the randomness is real, and not an illusion in front of a deterministic theory.

    i promise last post on this but this isn’t right. bell’s inequality just eliminates potential hidden variables that obey locality as explanations for entanglement. it doesn’t prove anything about “reality” of quantum probabilities or randomness. you could have a deterministic nonlocal theory consistent with bell’s inequality.

    geo the big picture here is locality. in the classical world it is impossible for the outcome of a coin flip in seattle to instantaneously (ie fast than light speed) determine the outcome of a coin flip in okc, unless there is some hidden variable connecting the two coins. but not in the quantum world. particles can be “entangled” such that if a coin lands heads in seattle it literally determines what will be observed from its entangled buddy flipping in okc. some people thing the very big picture of this is an indicator that space itself (ie “locality”) is emergent.

  234. What do people think?

    I think it’s very unlikely. But New Orleans is a team that could be swayed by saving money and one that thinks they have good players already, so they are the sort of team that might trade down. I agree it’s worth trading up to number ten if a player we really want is there.

  235. As for Boston, that trade makes it clear that Steven’s thinks he didn’t have good enough players at center and point guard. When I read of the trade, my first reaction was to make a joke that Moses Brown must be a great player, but then I looked at his stats. He’s only twenty one, is 7’2”, and averaged nine points and nine rebounds in twenty minutes of play and he probably really is the reason Boston made the deal.

  236. you have to hand it to hollinger, he literally speculated on this exact trade a couple weeks ago

  237. This new Presti method is exactly the model we should be following, and was what I argued for the other day. When you maximize a player like Randle, don’t lock him up in a supermax. Trade him at his peak and bring in the next veteran on a short term deal to do the same.

    Keep doing this over and over while developing your draft picks. The point of having so many picks isn’t to roster 100% of them. It’s to have more cracks at finding the next Giannis or SGA in the mid teens.

    The constant inflow of veterans keeps us competitive in the 4-10 seed range. The lack of long term contracts maintains flexibility for the free agent market. And endless supply of draft picks provides cheap labor and multiple cracks at uncovering a gem.

    This is why I’m adamant that the jury is still out on Leon Rose. We don’t know what his plan is. Yes, we achieved the 4th seed. That was remarkable and enjoyable. The whole organization deserves massive credit.

    But achieving the 4 seed doesn’t mean you’re on your way to anything more. This could have been the high water mark. OKC was the 4 seed last year but they knew they were still way off the pace so they didn’t lock up their best player, they traded him and kept accumulating assets.

  238. Well, John Stockton comes out as a batshit insane COVID conspiracy theorist.

  239. OKC now has 36 picks over the next 7 years, 18 firsts + 18 seconds.

    I guess this approach makes sense for a team that will literally never attract a single big-name free agent. They only have the draft and trades to work with.

    Yet that makes one wonder if a city that players don’t want to go to should even have a team.

  240. if kemba is healthy he is too young to bury in okc’s weird iggy horford elysium room. but they are presumably going to want to keep playing maledon, dort, their zillion rookies and sga. but i guess it’s not crazy to think they could try to flip kemba much earlier than the deadline if he looks healthy. strange situation.

  241. Yet that makes one wonder if a city that players don’t want to go to should even have a team.

    It’s mostly worked out okay for Salt Lake City. There’s just usually little margin for error. What Presti has done is to give himself enormous margin for error.

  242. I guess this approach makes sense for a team that will literally never attract a single big-name free agent.

    It makes sense for every team in the NBA that doesn’t have a true max player on their team.

    Granted, maybe every team doesn’t have to go to this extreme. The important thing is to not fall in love with your own talent and overpay them. Sell high, move on, repeat until you have the right mix.

  243. Dallas is now 50% of the way to correcting their ship. With Nelson and Carlisle out, all they have to do now is get rid of Haralabos Voulgaris and Cuban and they’ll be on their way. OK, so maybe they’ll have to settle for 75% because they are stuck with Cuban.

    PoRzInGiS iS sO gOoD aMiRiTe

    Strat, your obsession with Dallas is a little weird. It’s almost like you’re obsessed with them solely because you’re a KP fanboy. You don’t seem to like Doncic’s game, you don’t like the people who run the team and you don’t seem to like or give a shit about any of the players on the team except for KP.

    What gives? It sure seems like your intense interest in the Mavs is closely related to being “right” about the overpaid Latvian.

  244. Strat, if Dallas had to start their roster over today and could only keep one of Doncic and KP, which would you take?

  245. Don’t get me wrong, it would be fun to have all those draft picks. But without a smart, cohesive front office/coach group, everything goes to shit. Look at New Orleans and Dallas sweating it right now.

    Btw, OKC now might fuck up our trade-up plans (they have 16 and 18, we have 19 and 21.) But maybe that’s fine in the end. Right now, I would probably go with Springer and Duarte.

  246. On OKC, it seems like the strategy is to hope that Kemba Walker returns to Charlotte form and then flip him at the trade deadline to a contender that needs a PG.

    For Boston, this is weird, unless they really like Moses Brown. They gave up the 16th pick in the draft to shed $9M of salary next season (which will not get them under the cap) and significant cap savings in the 2022-23 season (when they could save $23M by waiving Horford and paying him $14M or save $10M by just keeping Horford for the full season). I guess it is possible that they expect Jaylen Brown to be diminished next season coming off of surgery. If they expect Tatum and Brown to both be at full strength, they should not be tanking next season.

  247. thanks milo and iserp for indulging me :)

    in light of the recent coaching vacancies, trade and playoffs – not a very compelling subject for many, so, i’ll let go of pestering you both…

    the very big picture of this is an indicator that space itself (ie “locality”) is emergent.

    i need to do some more digging on locality and non-locality, and how they relate back to relativity…man, intellectually some of this stuff is like chasing a feather in the wind…heck, not even like a stiff breeze, like hurricane stuff, with cinder blocks tied to your feet…

  248. This draft is so deep in talent that I’d definitely use all of the picks and not look to trade them. It’s not exactly like we had a deep bench last season. If we get any three of Butler, Duarte, Ayo, Springer, Thomas, Murphy, Queta, Bassey, Mann, Hyland, or Cooper I’ll be happy.

  249. cybersoze:
    Bruno, please don’t use the word “mediocre” ever again, here at KB it’s a trigger word, just like “frank” is, and once used can take over a thread or even be talked about on multiple threads just because of one single reference. LOL

    Sorry to do this, but… Way back in my freshman year of college, one guy on the floor in our dorm gave guys nicknames, some okay others insulting (sort of like in Animal House). One guy’s nickname was “Foreskin,” for example.

    Another guy’s nickname was “Mediocre.” His first name was Ed, so most called him “Mediocre Ed.” He was not amused.

    Just for the record, my nickname was “Space Cadet.”

  250. cybersoze: “my significant amount of research” is quite the take, don’t you think? :D

    “Significant amount of research” = Fox News? Conservative podcasts? Posts by my Facebook/Twitter friends?

    Sad, esp. since I knew a conspiracy theorist (who was very active about it on Facebook) who recently died from Covid.

  251. TheClashFan: “Significant amount of research” = Fox News?Conservative podcasts?Posts by my Facebook/Twitter friends?
    Sad, esp. since I knew a conspiracy theorist (who was very active about it on Facebook) who recently died from Covid.

    I’m sorry to hear that. Here in Portugal there’s little conspiracy theorists, but some of the few known ones had the same fate. Hell, with their thinking, they don’t even take the most basic protections to avoid it. It’s like a ticking bomb.

  252. I am very much looking forward to the day when the Covid vaccine is available for children. Then everybody I care about will be vaccinated and ignorant chucklefucks like John Stockton can Covid it up all they want.

    Someday it will be a moron-only disease. That will be a wonderful day.

  253. an rj barrett stan account: It would never happen like that but imagine going into this off season with Ben Simmons, Immanuel Quickley, RJ Barrett, and Mitchell Robinson as your nucleus and still having $30-40M to add a player or two. I’d flip Julius Randle for Ben Simmons and I wouldn’t think twice.

    Hmmm…

    A starting 5 of Quickley, Barrett, Simmons, Mitch, and… Obi? It’s intriguing, I’ll give you that. For one, you wouldn’t need a traditional pg and it’d improve team passing. Still, you’re looking at needing…

  254. Yeah, I am so over everyone on all points of the denial spectrum. Like the people who blamed the Eriksen incident on him having been vaccinated. (when of course he wasn’t vaxxed.) It’s just so stupid. A bunch of intellectually immature people who feel authorized to spew bullshit because Fauci said people didn’t need to wear masks in February, or whatever.

    Everyone should be as mature as us, a bunch of sober, middle-agedish Knicks fans.

  255. TheClashFan: Just for the record, my nickname was “Space Cadet.”

    Space Cadet is a very cool name, the only reason i don’t suggest you change your username is that i’m a The Clash fan myself, so your username is one of the best here. ;)
    But SpaceCadet would also be higher on the list, maybe you can use it for your burner account. LOL

  256. ptmilo:
    Bell’s inequalities prove that the randomness is real, and not an illusion in front of a deterministic theory.

    i promise last post on this but this isn’t right.bell’s inequality just eliminates potential hidden variables that obey locality as explanations for entanglement.it doesn’t prove anything about “reality” of quantum probabilities or randomness.you could have a deterministic nonlocal theory consistent with bell’s inequality.

    It has been a while since I studied quantum information, so that is probably right.

    geo the big picture here is locality.in the classical world it is impossible for the outcome of a coin flip in seattle to instantaneously (ie fast than light speed) determine the outcome of a coin flip in okc, unless there is some hidden variable connecting the two coins.but not in the quantum world.particles can be “entangled” such that if a coin lands heads in seattle it literally determines what will be observed from its entangled buddy flipping in okc.some people thing the very big picture of this is an indicator that space itself (ie “locality”) is emergent.

    Well, I always thought that it depends on your interpretation. In a more ‘parallel worlds’ interpretation where Alice, instead of collapsing the quantum wavefunction, becomes entangled with the photon measurement, then Alice and Bob become entangled, and only when they share information locally we see that both made correlated measurements. That, or I have mixed a porn film argument somewhere in the middle.

    Sorry for derailing the thread.

  257. That, or I have mixed a porn film argument somewhere in the middle.

    ha, too funny :)

    aside from the whole entanglement thing over possibly an infinite distance, i forgot where i saw it, but, i remember the first time i had heard that something could exist in two places at the same time, totally blew my mind, and yet, seemed to make perfect sense…

  258. geo:
    That, or I have mixed a porn film argument somewhere in the middle.

    ha, too funny :)

    aside from the whole entanglement thing over possibly an infinite distance, i forgot where i saw it, but, i remember the first time i had heard that something could exist in two places at the same time, totally blew my mind, and yet, seemed to make perfect sense…

    yeah..just like in Avenger’s Endgame…

  259. TheClashFan: Just for the record, my nickname was “Space Cadet.”

    There is probably a multi entanglement with reversed expected measurement results here in this board as I’m pretty sure if one reveals their nickname and it turns out to be space cadet everyone else on this board regardless of locality or even time gets the very same one!

  260. The deBroglie-Bohm pilot wave theory is correct and that’s all I have to say on this topic. The Copenhagen interpretation is insane.

  261. Some more light on the Celtics trade:

    Moses Brown’s three-year, $5.5 million deal (with a team option for the last season) is also more cost-efficient than the rookie-scale salary for a No. 16 pick.

    He did show promise on the 2nd half of this season, with 6 games of 15+ PTS and 12+ TRB, even putting up a display of 20+ PTS and 20+ TRB. Could Stevens get a better player with the 16th pick, maybe yes, maybe not. This way it’s a known comodity and a better cap alocation.

  262. Also, I don’t believe in dark matter. Somebody screwed up an equation when trying to extrapolate the mass of the universe is a much more reasonable explanation than 50% of the universe is missing.

  263. My cursory understanding is Bell proved that quantum mechanics cannot be both local and deterministic. However, one can reject determinism or locality. It’s a pick your poison of thoroughly alien and unappetizing ideas.

    Either things in the universe happen at random and eschew causality or causality happens but can happen from far away, imagine playing pool , missing the cue ball with the stick and seeing the 8 ball drop into the corner pocket anyways.

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