Congrats to Immanuel Quickley For Making the All-Rookie Second Team!

Here is the voting.

It’s weird, we just had Thibs pull out of a Coach of the Year Award despite not having the most first place votes (the first time that that has ever happened), we’ve had Julius Randle somehow be named to the All-NBA Second Team!, which is just remarkable and Derrick Rose even received a first place vote for MVP (a fan-vote, so perhaps it was a trolling thing, but still)…and then Immanuel Quickley…doesn’t even make the first team of the All-Rookie Team?

What in the what?

Don’t get me wrong, first team All-Rookie is fairly meaningless for future production, but how could anyone see Quickley’s rookie season and not say that he had one of the five best seasons by a rookie? How? It’s mind-boggling. It just doesn’t make any sense.

But whatever, congrats on making the second team, IQ! In just the last five years, that’s company shared with Shai Gilgeous-Alexander, Mitchell Robinson, John Collins, Bogdan Bogdanovic, Lonzo Ball, Brandon Ingram, Jamal Murray and Jaylen Brown. RJ Barrett infamously didn’t even make the All-Rookie team in his rookie season!

Here’s a trivia question – the 2015-16 NBA All-Rookie Second Team is the most recent All-Rookie team to have a player who is now out of the NBA based on no team wanting him (You’d have to go back to 2012-13 and Dion Waiters for the first first team All-Rookie player who is no longer in the NBA because no one wants him. Mirotic is out of the league, too, from 2014-15, but that’s his choice). Who is it?

Also, as part of our all-poll content…

Which first team All-Rookie players would you vote Quickley ahead of on the first team?

View Results

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727 thoughts to “Congrats to Immanuel Quickley For Making the All-Rookie Second Team!”

  1. I’m still outraged about this. It’s like the exact opposite rationale from the one that kept RJ off of last year’s teams altogether.

    In other news, Jowles, I have seen Bo Burnham: Inside. Go.

  2. I’d vote Quick ahead of Bey and Tate, but to be honest i almost didn’t watch Tate. I like Bey a lot, i had him on my list for the Knicks picks last year, but it’s not the same to shine on the 4th placed team or the last. It’s the old story of putting stats on losing teams. And the same for Tate, even though i don’t know his game well.

  3. This troll that voted “None of them” it’s probably the same that voted “Hawks in 4″… i’m onto you, better watch your back! LOLOL

  4. okay, so bpm and vorp are our things:

    Ball: 1.9 bpm, 1.4 vorp
    Edwards: -2.6 bpm, -0.3 vorp
    Haliburton: 1.1 bpm, 1.4 vorp
    Bey: -0.8 bpm, 0.6 vorp
    Tate: -1.2 bpm, 0.4 vorp

    our man quik: 0.6 bpm, 0.8 vorp…so there it is…on top of that – the hornets, wolves, kings, pistons and rockets all had a sub .500 season…

  5. #This troll that voted “None of them” it’s probably the same that voted “Hawks in 4?… i’m onto you, better watch your back! LOLOL#

    Almost Got Me!
    I had voted NYK in 4 and I’m not a troll!
    Just a Recently-Quantum-Physics-informed NYK fan who sees and votes IQ as the rookie of the year in a parallel blue and orange universe! ;-)

  6. Alan:
    Yes. I’ve had several of the songs stuck in my head since.

    My wife was a fan before (I was largely indifferent), but she said she watched it and was like, “Oh, so this is real art by an artist.” And I have to agree. Good luck to any comedian trying to make a stand-up special about COVID in the wake of this one. Feels “big,” if that makes sense to say about a one-man show in a single room. And I loved the ending. Spoilers ahead:

    Frank Ntilikina Frank Ntilikina Frank Ntilikina Frank Ntilikina Frank Ntilikina Frank Ntilikina Frank Ntilikina Frank Ntilikina Frank Ntilikina Frank Ntilikina If you’re going to pull a false/twist ending, I ask that you at least make it thematically consistent. And Burnham did just that. Frank Ntilikina Frank Ntilikina Frank Ntilikina Frank Ntilikina Frank Ntilikina Frank Ntilikina Frank Ntilikina Frank Ntilikina

  7. cybersoze:
    This troll that voted “None of them” it’s probably the same that voted “Hawks in 4?… i’m onto you, better watch your back! LOLOL

    Hey, cybersoze, it wasn’t me. Plus I like Queta too. Lol.

  8. Ahead of Tate and Bey is the correct choice I think. For as much as the media writ large is accused of having an East coast bias, we’ve been weirdly denied some accolades we probably deserved on the merits lately. There’s this, Quickley being left off the Rising Stars roster, Mitch losing out to Marvin freakin’ Bagley for all-rookie first team, and RJ’s snub.

    This troll that voted “None of them” it’s probably the same that voted “Hawks in 4?… i’m onto you, better watch your back! LOLOL

    To be fair they were pretty damn close to the actual result…

  9. Jowles, I think there are other ways that comedians could take on 2020 — particularly a female and/or BIPOC comedian — but this certainly felt like it could stand as the definitive one if nobody else wanted to try.

  10. Knew Your Nicks: I had voted NYK in 4 and I’m not a troll!

    :P

    DudeInKnicksTown: Hey, cybersoze, it wasn’t me. Plus I like Queta too. Lol.

    +1000

    thenoblefacehumper: To be fair they were pretty damn close to the actual result…

    Phew, sometimes i think about it and yeah it was really close, those times i even feel happy we managed to not be swept.

  11. cybersoze:
    I think tonight Philly wins and forces a game 7. What do you guys think?

    It depends on whether Thybulle plays like Frank or not.

  12. #I think tonight Philly wins and forces a game 7. What do you guys think?#

    I really wish for a Mil-Atl ECF but I’m ok with any result as long as its fair and Not Refmade.
    Tonight it’s Atlanta’s Huge Chance and Philly’s Last Chance.
    Philly looks better on paper but…we saw many papers during this season turn to toilet papers so… Let’s wait and enjoy this battle!

  13. From ESPN:

    Brown, 21, impressed as a two-way player before signing a multiyear deal with Oklahoma City, averaging 8.6 points and 8.9 rebounds in 43 games — including going for 21 points and 23 rebounds against the Celtics on March 27 in Oklahoma City

    It seems to be a typical story. You have a great game against some team and then they trade for you.

  14. After Boston’s first playoff run with Kemba/Hayward it was obvious that these 2 albatrosses would fuck Celt’s future.
    Getting rid of both players/contracts was the obvious move even from back then but i really think they missed precious time and assets before completing it.

  15. So now Boston has one point guard (Marcus Smart) and five centers (Horford, Williams, Brown, Fall and Kornet). They clearly improved at center, but have some more moves they have to make.

  16. https://www.sportsnet.ca/article/rj-barretts-experience-important-canada-finding-international-success/

    RJ starting olympic qualifiers with Canada… they should at least advance to the championship game i think and then they’ll in all likelihood play a tough game against Turkey for the right to play in the olympics… Turkish team is pretty stacked and Alperen Sengun should be playing I think if you want to take a peak at the next great international big to come over… Canada is also no pushover and pretty nba stacked lineup for them and should be a good experience for RJ… i’m kind of rooting they don’t make it to the Olympics though…

  17. I think tonight Philly wins and forces a game 7. What do you guys think?

    i really hope they do but it’s all dependent on how good embiid feels in the 4th since philly literally implodes whenever embiid suffers on offense …

  18. I’m in for total chaos as long as the Nets don’t win.
    It could be funny to watch how Philly, Clippers, Bucks and Jazz will react to a “premature” exit…

  19. They need to stop whistling these stupid fouls, there’s almost no contact. The first Harris foul was outrageous.

  20. cybersoze:
    They need to stop whistling these stupid fouls, there’s almost no contact. The first Harris foul was outrageous.

    Agree 100%.
    I hope next year this thing will change for good.

  21. Either Nate McMillan has figured out a great defensive scheme to hide Trae Young or Rivers (and Thibs before him) is missing something obvious. No one puts Trae into the pick & roll.

  22. Atlanta is sending the double at Embiid as soon as he dribbles. No one is cutting hard to give him an easy pass. Even with Simmons out, the lane is clogged.

  23. ephus: I’m watching Maxey carve up the Hawks D and thinking that could have been IQ.

    Maxey and IQ have kind of opposite games. Quickley’s much better from distance, Maxey better at putting the ball on the floor and getting to the rack.

  24. Here is my suggestion for the Philly offense in the second half.

    1. Bench Simmons.
    2. Play Maxey.
    3. Run the Pick & Roll with Harris & Embiid.
    4. Curry, Maxey & Korkmaz have to be ready to shoot from 3, if Atlanta sends a 3rd man to defend the pick & roll.

  25. I did not see trae young becoming this dominant a player…he’s like allen iverson out there doing whatever he wants…

  26. philly has a net rtg advantage of +5.1 in the series so they’ve mostly been waxing the floor with atl other than some untimely misses … probably due to embiid knee pain.. coinciding with godly hawk shooting…

  27. Not only should that not be a foul on Embiid, it should be an offensive foul on Collins. It might even deserve to be a flagrant.

  28. I wonder if collins re-signs with atlanta, that okongku kid looks good, what a nice block…

    oh yeah basketball purists – whatever, but i’m fouling simmons every time he touches the ball :)

  29. This game is brutal to watch.

    Ben Simmons with 4 points. I don’t care about all the other things he does, that’s just not acceptable from your #2 guy.

  30. Still reeling from the revelation that so many Knicks fans are into quantum physics. Not a typical Venn diagram.

    Simmons would really test my patience, although that block of Trae was awesome.

  31. Perfectly fair snub, IMO. IQ only played ~1200 minutes. Tate and Bey were at ~2,000 and ~1,900, respectively.

    Desmond Bane probably has more reason to feel snubbed.

  32. not to be too wierd, but just wondering: do you believe in aliens owen?

    it seems we’re only a few hundred years from figuring out how things work…not too hard to imagine something else getting there a few hundred thousand years before us…

    who knows how long it’ll be before we start seeding other planets with rocks filled with dna gunk…

  33. Embiid is a lot bigger than Collins

    Geo, I believe in aliens but not on Earth. Except for maybe Dwight Howard.

  34. That Embiid arms spread wide “what’d I do?” bullshit is really hard to take

  35. It is bullshit but I was raised on a decade of Knicks doing it all the time. And I loved it. So I have some mixed emotions.

    Wow Trae

  36. Announcer handled the lights going out very well. “ Trae shot the lights out”

    Very cool shot with the iPhone flashlights

  37. Philly is literally attacking 4 vs 5, they’re doing everything to avoid giving the ball to Simmons…

  38. Wow this time the Sixers made their free throws and won the game, what a surprising outcome, totally unexpected

  39. it doesn’t look it.. but philly has been playing pretty good D all series…. i think with this game their D rating should surpass their regular season mark….

    you can’t expect to stop certain guys… that’s why defense isn’t about one dude locking up another dude.. not when there’s screens involved.. what makes simmons and thybulle great defenders…. besides being good on-ball defenders… is that they’re really good rotating and on help… and they have been putting the clamps on atl most of the series (besides game 1)….

    their problem is that their offense outside embiid and curry.. with some cameos from harris, maxey and milton… have been really really bad… both teams have been scrapping for every point… good defense from both teams all series…

  40. Philly dodged a big bullet, now they have a big chance to close it out at home.

    Both Eastern matchup go to game 7, nice!

  41. I have to be honest, I’ve never heard of Tate in my life. I don’t even know what team he plays for, let alone whether he’s any good at basketball. Was he ever mentioned on this blog, either pre or post draft? Cause if so, I must have been sick that day.

  42. I know Mitchell still has efficiency issues he needs to keep working on, but he’s an eye test god. Every time I watch him I’m thinking that he is so special. Incredible talent.

  43. I mean, good for the Clippers and all, but boy, the Suns must be fucking salivating at the thought of playing the Kawhi-less Clippers instead of the Jazz.

  44. That was an embarrassing ass loss by the Jazz. I know no one really took them all that seriously, but still, dang, dude.

  45. ***I have seen Bo Burnham: Inside. Go.
    did u like***

    My wife, who is on bed rest and content starved, put this on this evening. I watched it over her shoulder until she said “I can’t take another second of this” and shut it off. I would have maybe given it another minute or two, but she is highly offended by talentless white men so I didn’t fight to keep it on.

  46. Incredible, I did it again, went to bed at halftime with the Jazz up by 22…

    The Clips saved by Reggie Jackson (who’s having a heck of a playoffs run) and Mann’s lifetime game.

    And another historical collapse in this crazy season.

    Lesson to learn for the Knicks: no matter how good on defense, no matter how good a rim protector, you can’t pay a boatload of money to your center if his not able to stretch the floor and be a real threat on offense (I’m looking at you Mr. Robinson).

  47. Lesson to learn for the Knicks: no matter how good on defense, no matter how good a rim protector, you can’t pay a boatload of money to your center if his not able to stretch the floor and be a real threat on offense (I’m looking at you Mr. Robinson).

    I don’t think that’s the lesson at all. You just can’t have a rim protector who can’t also close out on threes, which is pretty much Mitch’s specialty. If you had Mitch on the Jazz last night, Mann would not be taking wide open corner threes constantly.

  48. Brian Cronin: I don’t think that’s the lesson at all. You just can’t have a rim protector who can’t also close out on threes, which is pretty much Mitch’s specialty. If you had Mitch on the Jazz last night, Mann would not be taking wide open corner threes constantly.

    Good point but I wonder how this player can be a multiple times DPOY if he can’t close out on threes…

    P.S. It’s true that this is not the first time that Gobert has been exploited in the playoffs…

  49. Donnie Walsh:
    Who needs Kawhi when you have the Boat Rocker

    Plus 1

    I was workshopping a Field of Dreams joke but you nailed it

    I can’t believe the Jazz lost that game

  50. Fell asleep by the end of the 3rd quarter, but Philly somehow managed to hold on to the tiny lead they had. It’s very nice to have two game 7 on the east, it’ll be very entertaining. :)
    About the west, wow, i thought the Clippers without Kawhi would be lucky to win 1, let alone win 2 in a row and send the Jazz home. :O

  51. For my hot take of the day, i don’t think Gobert is a max player, and is definitely not a #2 on a championship team (he’s a #3 and that’s it, a very good one, but you’ll need 2 stars with him to win it all).
    So Mitchell just rised on my list of potential disgruntled superstars asking a trade to come to the Knicks. A homecoming is always a beautiful story. ;)

  52. Can tell I’m getting old. I was asleep before the first quarter of LA and Utah was half over!

    Very surprised to wake up to Utah losing though. Hopefully Kawhi and CP3 can both play at some point soon.

  53. About rim protection, close out on threes, and offense (this is important), from the center spot, i think there’s a lot of bias in favor of very good rim protectors because of the flashy plays (i for sure love to watch a thunderous block), but there’s a reason the players like Noel are paid around 5M each year… you can’t play them in the playoffs… if not at all, at least you can’t play them when the other team goes small.
    I agree with Brian that Mitch is better than the Noel type because of the close out on threes, and a better offensive game, although a very limited one, but that can put you at what? 10M AAV? 12M AAV?
    Either way, you’ll have to play center by committee, having a Noel type when the other team has a rim protector on the floor, and a Brook Lopez type (or a small ball center like Obi) when the other team doesn’t have a rim protector.
    All this words to come to the conclusion that yeah, i’m feeling even more justified for my Myles Turner push because he’s both a very good rim protector and an ok offensive player (a average stretch-5). He’s making 18M AAV, and that seems high for you guys, but he’s not making the max like Gobert and the difference between them clearly doesn’t justify Gobert’s max money.
    I think we should try to grab him before another team realizes this. And i’m Mitch’s number 1 fan here, but Myles is way better.
    (note: if we can find a superstar magician PG like Trae, then it’s ok for the center to “just” be a very good rim protector, like Capela is)

  54. And watching what Trae is doing, i don’t think the “stupid trade” Atlanta did at the 2018 NBA Draft is being fairly reviewed. If that’s an L on Atlanta is only because they wasted the extra pick on Cam Reddish, if they had selected a good player (just good, no need to be a star or anything like that) they’d clearly had won that trade.
    Let’s say they used that pick on Herro, would you guys prefer Luka Doncic or Trae Young and Tyler Herro?

  55. Cyber, I have thought the same. I do think Luka is a much better player long term though.

    I wonder what Hubert is going to do with all that Suns bet money. Wait till they make the Finals and cash it out? Let it ride?

  56. Gobert is a 3 time and reigning DPOY, but he got totally abused by small ball last night. The lesson is that the only way to stop small ball is to post up your big and allow him to shoot over smaller players or use his strength advantage to get to the basket. Also, you have to attack the offensive boards.

    Gobert is not enough of an offensive threat to do that.

    But there’s still a good lesson in that for coaches when a team does have a player that get can get OREB putbacks, put the ball on the floor a little and shoot over small men around the basket, play bully ball etc.. If you stick your big man outside shooting 3s your are being foolish. If you do that you are gaining nothing on offense from your size advantage and but still have the speed and defensive disadvantage on the other side.

    The idea that post play is not efficient is not correct. It may be inefficient relative to some other options over 100s of players and thousands of games. It’s very efficient if you have a good post player and a mismatch.

  57. suns the current vegas favorite. keep your head down hubert. if your bookie was willing to go full yakuza in round one, this might get ugly.

    i am still thinking about clippers jazz. the only thing i know for sure is that i don’t agree with the takes above (“gobert is a number 3” or “you need a center like mitch who can close out in 3s”), but it does raise hard questions. watching last night i did think that snyder should have tried going to 1-4 (huh?) zone. it’s a pretty unusual situation where almost every opponent can blow by all or most of your perimeter defenders without a pick or even a play. utah’s injuries were part of it. but if you know are getting blown by there is no point in your smalls constantly chasing from behind like they were doing.

  58. on offense the problem isn’t that they couldn’t post gobert. gobert is not noel. he is a strong roll finisher and the jazz guards missed him repeatedly when, say, reggie jackson appeared to be in the area but was not going to stop him. some of that may just be a lack of experience in forcing the roll pass when there are bodies in the area, because usually those bodies are actual deterrents. there were definitely unexploited opportunities on that end. i also thought utah’s adjustment to set picks for mitchell further out was a mistake. it led to some space for mitchell at times
    but it really played in the clippers hands in average.

  59. I like Luka over Trae long term because of the size difference but I think Trae plays the PG position better now. He still has mental lapses where you ask “WTF is he thinking”, but he’s getting better at that and has fewer than Doncic.

    IMO, it’s too soon to throw in the towel on Reddish. He came in as a perimeter defender that needed to develop a more consistent outside shot. He only played 26 games this year. At 21 it’s too soon to call him a bust. They weren’t expecting him to come in and be a star on offense right away. If he makes no progress over the next year or two, then there’s a problem.

  60. ptmilo:
    on offense the problem isn’t that they couldn’t post gobert.gobert is not noel.he is a strong roll finisher and the jazz guards missed him repeatedly when, say, reggie jackson appeared to be in the area but was not going to stop him.some of that may just be a lack of experience in forcing the roll pass when there are bodies in the area, because usually those bodies are actual deterrents.there were definitely unexploited opportunities on that end.

    IMO executing rolls will help, but it is not enough to change the dynamic. You will only get so many opportunities to do that and once you start the defense can adjust and limit it further even with smaller guys on the court. IMO you have to go into beast mode, but these days most Cs spend so much time learning how to shoot 3s they never learn how to be centers. The more you can do the better. If you can add a 3 or roll well that’s great. But imo we need more beasts in the league that dominate the glass and inside to counter small ball.

  61. The Jazz deserve every bit of shit being thrown at them, but it was totally nuts how every single Clippers player couldn’t miss from 3 in the 4th quarter. At one point near the end of the game, Patrick Beverly, not known as a 3 point marksman, just said what the fuck and tossed one in.

    The Clips were 8-10 from 3 in the 4th quarter…crazy.

  62. If I’m ATL then I’m happy to get a 1st along with Trae for Doncic. Cam Reddish was a joke of a pick. Maybe he turns into something, but I’d bet against it at almost any line.

  63. But imo we need more beasts in the league that dominate the glass and inside to counter small ball.

    but here’s the thing. the jazz had a 120 ortg in the series. you are not going to beat that by posting rik smits or kevin duckworth or even david robinson or patrick ewing against marcus morris. the offensive rebounding helps but gobert himself is an excellent offensive rebounder, even compared to most hof centers. sure, if you had shaq or wilt or kareem you could obliterate the small ball lineups but that’s like waiting for wonder woman to join your laser tag team. the vast majority of good post up centers aren’t going to improve on the offensive efficiency put up against small ball lineups under current rules; it’s already too high.

  64. I would have maybe given it another minute or two, but she is highly offended by talentless white men so I didn’t fight to keep it on.

    This might be your best “I didn’t do the reading, but” performance yet! I mean, even the New Yorker columnist watched it before panning it. Or calling it a “virtuoso performance.” Can’t remember which.

  65. This might be your best “I didn’t do the reading, but” performance yet!

    by far the best traits to have are the ones that can be accurately skewered without causing even a whiff of insult

  66. On the Athletic the Jazz beat writer wrote that letting Mann shoot and protect the rim was the game plan and Snyder later said that they weren’t able to adjust when they start to bleed too much…

    If true the strategy backfired but on the other hand 14-19 on 3PFG in the second half (including a couple from Beverly) don’t happen every day and It’s close to impossible to recover from 25 down if the other team’s offense don’t stop getting points, just as Utah did.

  67. but here’s the thing. the jazz had a 120 ortg in the series. you are not going to beat that by posting rik smits or kevin duckworth or even david robinson or patrick ewing against marcus morris.

    I don’t necessarily think this is true… there are absolutely situations where certain mismatches have an expected outcome with a net rating way beyond 120 ortg…. it’s just that we don’t see it too much because adjustments get made once you reach say 150… like trae young guarding embiid…. or getting gobert deep in the paint vs terrence mann…

    that’s the key part is how exploit those mismatches.. and with bigs its complicated because they rely on others to get them the ball in the positions that they want… you can’t just throw the ball to gobert out on the perimeter and he’ll work his way to an efficient spot… the offense has to work towards it together… and sometimes/most of the time that’s not possible depending on defensive coverages…

  68. I went to sleep with the Jazz up by 20+ points and woke up this morning to learn that the Clips had come back and won.

    I remember back in the late 90’s that 15 point lead seemed insurmountable. 25 point deficits, even in the 3rd quarter, mean nothing these days.

  69. cybersoze: If that’s an L on Atlanta is only because they wasted the extra pick on Cam Reddish, if they had selected a good player (just good, no need to be a star or anything like that) they’d clearly had won that trade.
    Let’s say they used that pick on Herro, would you guys prefer Luka Doncic or Trae Young and Tyler Herro?

    Doncic over Young and anyone picked 10th or later in the 2019 Draft. It is not even close.

  70. also the 2nd round featured 5 out of the 8 teams with big defensive oriented plodding centers… ayton..gobert… embiid.. lopez.. capela… only lopez and embiid shoot 3s…

    what makes mitch unique is that he’s more mobile than almost everyone here cept maaybe capela… and he’s much more effective and able to defend the perimeter and rotate effectively… one of the best things he does is swatting 3pt attempts like he’s a missile defense system…

    going 5 out does mitigate his impact on the defensive end like we’ve seen in these playoffs.. but he’s fast enough to recover to help towards the rim out of almost everyone in the league… that and the fact that he’s one of the few bigs that gives embiid some problems defensively… which obv is going to be key for us since we’re in the same division…

    that said.. as a counter to 5 out.. i hope i start seeing some team start putting their centers on the worst shooter on the court… and just play off them the whole time and just relegate the offense into the reggie jackson/blake griffin/john collins 3pt shooting offense… sometimes they won’t miss like the clips entire lineup seemed like it couldn’t miss… but a lot of times i think you can live with them shooting 10 3s a game and living with the outcome…. certainly better than the alternative i think…

  71. Gobert did have the game winning block on Marcus Morris’s 3 pointer in the final second of game 1…

  72. I watched “Inside.” I was impressed by the technical skill required to make something like that all by himself and I liked parts of it but got tired of it by the end and the more I think about it, the more self indulgent it feels to me.

  73. The Honorable Cock Jowles: Doncic and there’s absolutely no hesitation

    ephus: Doncic over Young and anyone picked 10th or later in the 2019 Draft.It is not even close.

    I agree, i’d pick Doncic also. But the trade doesn’t look bad anymore, was the point i was trying to make (and didn’t achieve LOL).
    At least can we all agree that Doncic doesn’t seem to be improving? He was amazing in his rookie year and he’s the same kind of amazing 3 years later. Of course he can make a leap at some point, a la Julius Randle, but it’s kind of concerning at this stage. He’ll still be one of the best of his generation, but watching his rookie season, i thought he’d go to GOAT level territory, joining Wilt, Kareem, Jordan and Lebron. Maybe he can go there, maybe he can’t. Right now and after not seeing a single evolution in his game in so much time, i’m having doubts he’ll get there.

  74. ***This might be your best “I didn’t do the reading, but” performance yet!***

    I’m considering a blog called “30-Second TV Reviews”, only instead of reviewing the show in 30 seconds, I’m going to take all the time I want in reviewing the first 30 seconds of the show. Would ou subscribe?

  75. I haven’t seen enough of Luka this year, but what Trae Young is doing in the playoffs is extremely impressive, he’s a generational talent.

    Check out their advanced stats in the playoffs this year:

    Luka: 1, 11.8, 125 (vorp, bpm, ws48).

    Trae: 1.2, 10.7, 200 (vorp, bpm, ws48).

    Very comparable, isn’t it?

    In conclusion for me Young and, say, Brandon Clarke (as Jowles would testify he’s > RJ Barrett) or even Matisse Thybulle for Luka is not a bad anything yet. Its a time will tell kind of game.

  76. I’m with Ingmar in not having watched enough Luka, but Trae has been absolutely stellar the last 2 years and closed the gap between their rookie year numbers.

    Luka came in with an otherworldly rookie year, but Trae has made bigger improvements since.

    In the longrun I like Luka to improve more, but I don’t think it’s clear we can even say Luka is guaranteed to have a better career than Trae straight up. Add in an extra first and I’m absolutely fine with that trade.

  77. swiftandabundant: the more self indulgent it feels to me.

    I don’t think there’s a stand-up comedian on earth who can’t be described as self-indulgent. Observational comedy always comes with the subtext of “my perspective is very important, so much so that I will charge you to listen to it.” But I also found the second half draining, given how gloomy it is. But like, say, the “third act” of my favorite, Mulholland Drive, the tone shift works and throws the silly, Weird Al-like first half into stark relief.

  78. Re: roundball

    I can now defend Trae over Luka, even though at the time it was a head-scratcher (again — Euroleague MVP as a teen). And if they had taken Thybulle, I think you could make an argument that it was, on the whole, a decent trade. It’s a lot to ask your volume scorer to also be a lockdown defender on the league’s best ball-handlers, so having two excellent but one-way players instead of one transcendent talent (Luka is not a great defender at all, but he’s better than Young on O and has a higher ceiling IMO).

    The Jazz just put up an all-time collapse, but as noted, 14-19 from three in the 2H is one of those things that you just can’t stop through good defense alone. You need luck. If you had those guys in an empty gym, there’s a good chance they struggle to hit 14-19 without defenders on them.

    And I still like Clarke but he had a disappointing season to say the least. I also didn’t understand all the Hawks’ signings, and they’re one win from the Conference Finals, led by a 12-year-old boy. I took a lot of Ls this year.

  79. Yeah, my instinctive reaction still is that Luka is a generational superstar and Trae is a guy who will have a borderline HOF career, but won’t ultimately rise into the pantheon. They bring a lot of similar things to the table Both are great passers, foul drawers, both have to work on their three point shots, both are indifferent defenders. Luka is 6 inches taller and has proven himself on some pretty big stages and having that kind of build just matters. But Trae is in the process of proving that he can do it on the big stage too, even with his limitations.

    I agree there is some doubt about how much confidence you can have in that outcome, as much as I prefer Luka. I think if I had to choose between them now, knowing what I know, I think the most important factor probably is injuries. I don’t trust 6’1 guards to have long careers in the NBA.

  80. I also think Luka has a higher ceiling. But right now I’m struggling to think of a young player with a higher offensive IQ and skill than Trae. He’s becoming the terrifying guy you know will kill you in the end and there’s nothing you can do about it.

    I’m very curious to see him perform in game 7 on the road.

  81. I think eventually Trae will be decapitated on a driving floater. Especially as he tells more of the league about his first-hand knowledge of their female family members’ sexual capabilities.

  82. Yeah but when it turned dark it hit the same note over and over again for like 20 minutes. I’m all about the comedy special that turns serious but to me it just felt repetitive and self indulgent and it was just like “everything’s fucked and the worlds gonna end.” I don’t know if it was 10 minutes shorter I probably would have loved it. I was super into the first part of it.

  83. When I say that I would take Luka over Trae & #10 First Round Pick, that is not meant to diminish how much Trae has impressed me. His rim reads are spectacular. He makes the right choice just about every time. He disguises his lobs so well that opponents react by getting ready to rebound the floater. He is clearly much more than the mindless gunner that I thought he would be.

  84. i think people are going a little overboard on trae…. he’s good but a lot of his game is foulbaiting… he’s a 6ft 1 guy that gets to the line as often as a 7ft 300lbs guy and he doesn’t even so much as sniff the rim the entire game…

    the officiating will hopefully adapt and evolve to account for this because it is increasingly getting exploited and ruining the watchability of some of these games… yes that also includes our own quickley…

    so much of trae’s value depends on getting to the line a ridiculous amount and if his ftr were to ever tank then he’s probably still good but not anywhere near this level…

  85. djphan, some of the most impressive plays of last night’s Hawks-Sixers game involved Trae getting to the rack and laying it in despite Philly having so many big defenders. It’s not just foul-baiting.

  86. Yeah, just the fact Trae is 6’1″ means Luka’s game will likely age better.

    But I also expected Luka to step his game up more than he has. It’s an extremely harsh curve to grade him on, but when your rookie year already has the makings of an all-time great talent that’s what you grade it on. Luka is so talented he can coast his whole career and still get max contracts every year.

    Part of me wonders if Luka is going to put in the work to be the best. Luka showed up to camp this year having downed a few too many Texas-sized cheeseburgers. I absolutely give everyone a pass for the pandemic, but it nags at the back of my mind as a sign he may not have the commitment to reach his potential.

    Luka should be better than Trae, but it hasn’t been as clear as I think it should be.

  87. Luka took more FTA per 100 possessions last year than Trae did this year.

    Harden was up near 15 FTA per 100 possessions for HOU last year.

    The game has changed and most dominant offensive perimeter players feast at the line. I don’t think it’s an indictment of Trae, and Luka will have to change his game too if they stop calling those fouls.

  88. I was the first to mock Atlanta for that trade but maaan…this short MFKR is turning mind-blowing!
    Yesterday i felt my jaw dropping multiple times while watching Trae Young.
    Otoh Luka is Luka but…that trade looks much better than back then..

  89. i’m not saying he’s not good… certainly a guy of young’s caliber is capable of impressive moments…. but…

    1) he’s not even a great 3pt shooter.. why? because he takes a ton of these logo 3pt’ers… and otherwise really poor pullup or stepback 3s.. yes occasionally he makes them like against maxey.. but overall it’s an anchor on his game…

    2) he has an average 2p%… and most of it is because of his reliance on his floater… and how much he shoots it.. same thing with quickley cept quickley isn’t that great shooting anywhere in 2pt territory…

    3) his ts% of .589 is good.. tho not great… but it’s absolutely being propped up by his massive FTR and he shoots those at 88%… it accounts for such a ridiculous amount of his efficiency… and we haven’t seen it to this degree other than lou williams where they get this much of their value almost purely from the line…

    https://www.si.com/nba/2021/06/10/trae-young-hawks-nba-playoffs-foul-drawing

    trae only gets fouled 6.5% on his drives… for a guy who gets to the line THIS MANY TIMES where and how do you think he’s getting all these free throws?

    yes trae has the ball a ton of times…. basically the entire game… and he’s pretty damn good with the ball in his hands…. and he’s a very very talented guy… but there are limits to these kinds of players especially when they don’t shoot like curry or even like cp3 from midrange or in floater range…. more than anyone he is RELIANT on the foulbaiting which doesn’t mean that it’s his entire game but it’s a large part of why people consider him good…

  90. Donnie Walsh:
    ***This might be your best “I didn’t do the reading, but” performance yet!***
    I’m considering a blog called “30-Second TV Reviews”, only instead of reviewing the show in 30 seconds, I’m going to take all the time I want in reviewing the first 30 seconds of the show. Would ou subscribe?

    Hey, that’s too close to Alan’s show “Too long; Didn’t Watch”, you can’t do that unless you pay royalties to Alan. :P

  91. Trae Young’s change of speed/direction is badmotherfuckerish!
    I’m telling you man
    It’s not the foul baiting
    It’s his unreal body/ball control and handling of game’s pressure

  92. cybersoze: Hey, that’s too close to Alan’s show “Too long; Didn’t Watch”, you can’t do that unless you pay royalties to Alan. :P

    Thanks again for being the best agent a guy like me could ask for!

  93. trae only gets fouled 6.5% on his drives… for a guy who gets to the line THIS MANY TIMES where and how do you think he’s getting all these free throws?

    So that SI article has Luka at 7.3%, so it’s not a crazy difference. Obviously Trae is a much better FT shooter so a change will hurt him more than it will hurt Luka.

    It’ll be interesting to see if and how Trae can adjust. But I do think being so small actually plays to Traes advantage here. Part of why he gets so many calls is he’s small enough to sell the contact. And fwiw, a lot of those clips of getting run into from behind are legit fouls. They’re soft fouls compared to the 90s, but they are fouls by the rulebook and Trae is good at selling the contact.

  94. Geo. Check out The Age of Entanglement by Louisa Gilder. She puts words in the mouths of the major thinkers involved in the debates around quantum theory in general and entanglement in particular. Turns huge amounts of scrupulous historical research including diaries, letters, notes, etc. in various languages into plausible English conversations. She makes sure to get the ideas right and clearly indicates where she’s inventing the dialog.

    The result turns all the versions of ideas from competing perspectives into a series of immersive dramatized debates by vibrant personalities. It goes up to the 70’s IIRC, and only glosses the huge amount of work since then fairly lightly.

    She gives a lot of time to the participants and state of debate around the 1927 Solvay Conference and then the work by Bell in the 60’s and it’s consequences. It gives a nuanced picture of the struggle the whole community of physicists has had in accommodating some of the most radical ideas about reality ever to be posed and rigorously tested. It might not give you the clarity you’re looking for, but it will probably be very fun and make you feel better about the residual confusion and uncertainty.

  95. On Trae:

    During the Knicks series, I was upset that none of the Knicks could stay in front of him or even force him left. During this series, neither Simmons nor Thybulle have been able to stay in front of him or even force him left. They are the two of the best perimeter defenders in the league.

    Trae gets to the foul line because he can beat anyone off the dribble. Defenders foul him when off-balance and trying to recover.

  96. ephus: During the Knicks series, I was upset that none of the Knicks could stay in front of him or even force him left.

    I’m not a Rose fan, but recall the surprising effectiveness of his standing directly to Trae’s right. I think it might have only been when he started by setting the offence from the left side of the court. But Rose just completely gave him the path toward the baseline i.e. did not attempt to stay in front of him at all, and it stopped him because he refused to go left.

    I don’t know how often he did it and doubt it would pose a significant obstacle if someone did it every time. But I remember that it seemed effective the few times it caught my attention.

  97. trae is not good in isolation… he does his damage on screens.. and yes anyone can get past anyone when screened … even against great perimeter defenders like simmons and thybulle…

    they were 16th in the league in isolation efficiency running it only 4.9% of the time which was 25th… in the playoffs… they were 11th in isolation efficiency…

  98. I kind of just wish we could sit down for a meal and you could give me the tl;dr version :)

    i’ll remember the name louisa gilder…

  99. I’ve actually become quite anxious of what will happen if I win. Imagine Christopher Moltisanti owed you a shit ton of money? I know this guy through a friend who knows him well, so I probably won’t get my knees capped. But I might have to do something stupid like bet $10k on the Mets to win the World Series just to keep him happy.

  100. Hubert: Imagine Christopher Moltisanti owed you a shit ton of money?

    You ever think what a coincidence it is that Lou Gehrig died of Lou Gehrig’s Disease?

  101. Hubert:
    I’ve actually become quite anxious of what will happen if I win. Imagine Christopher Moltisanti owed you a shit ton of money? I know this guy through a friend who knows him well, so I probably won’t get my knees capped. But I might have to do something stupid like bet $10k on the Mets to win the World Series just to keep him happy.

    In the words of “The Mouse That Roared”, what if you win (again)?

  102. I’m considering a blog called “30-Second TV Reviews”, only instead of reviewing the show in 30 seconds, I’m going to take all the time I want in reviewing the first 30 seconds of the show. Would ou subscribe?

    I would 10,000% subscribe to a podcast of you and Alan talking about shows you stopped watching after 10 minutes.

  103. It’s great to have Marv Albert back in Brooklyn, where he grew up, as his great career gets closer to it’s end.

  104. You ever think what a coincidence it is that Lou Gehrig died of Lou Gehrig’s Disease?

    :)

  105. DudeInKnicksTown:
    It’s great to have Marv Albert back in Brooklyn, where he grew up, as his great career gets closer to it’s end.

    We have already gotten a Marv Albert, “Yes!” after a made basket.

    I am hoping for a “Yes . . . and it counts” after a made basket & foul.

  106. Did anyone else listen yesterday to MBreen saying “BANG! What a Man!” about Terrance Mann and going silent for a few secs after (probably from laughing) or was i just imagined it?

  107. Knew Your Nicks:
    Did anyone else listen yesterday to MBreen saying “BANG! What a Man!” about Terrance Mann and going silent for a few secs after (probably from laughing) or was i just imagined it?

    I like to think that he followed it up with “What a mighty, mighty good man!” but got silenced by standards & practices for fear of a copyright infringement issue.

    But yes, you heard that right.

  108. Four of the five Nets starters have gone all the way through the first 15 minutes. The only sub was four minutes of Shamet for Harris.

    Bucks are letting the Nets play a super slow paced game.

  109. Nets are matching Griffin with Giannis. When Giannis sat, so did Griffin. When Giannis checked back in, so did Griffin.

  110. I think the bucks when they traded all that stuff for Holliday…thought they would get more than this in a game 7…

  111. I definitely want the Nets to lose, but the Bucks are really hard to root for. Their offensive sets are atrocious.

  112. Based on that air ball, if the Bucks are up in the 4th Q and there are more than 2 minutes left, I’m going with Hack-A-Giannis.

  113. They must impress a PG-13 mark on the screen,
    the Bucks’ offense is an unmitigated horror show…

  114. a minor advantage of hammy harden is that he’s going to play 48 minutes while still being totally fresh in the 4th

  115. Max:
    They must impress a PG-13 mark on the screen,
    the Bucks’ offense is an unmitigated horror show…

    They should fire Bud and hire Stephen King, if it’s an horror show, at least give us a good one. :D

  116. imagine giannis goes like 12-12 from the line in the fourth and the crowd is just dread counting like a kid about to jump in the pool

  117. Blake did a good job on Giannis in the first half. When they sat him near the end Giannis took over.

  118. Middleton: FG 2-11, 3P 0-2, 5 PTS
    Holiday: FG 2-11, 3P 0-4, 4 PTS
    I don’t think you can win a game 7 with your 2nd and 3rd best players playing like this.

  119. Middleton and Holiday both with 2/11 (18,2%)
    You go straight back home with a 4/22 guard combo
    No Chance if those two continue bricking

  120. The Nets at least had a chance to get Kyrie back and do something interesting in the next rounds, but if this Bucks team goes through… Just more dumb basketball that wont get anywhere.

  121. I think I’d rather watch a forfeit in the east finals than watch Giannis take another 3, so yeah, just end this series please.

  122. I know this is still a close game and either team could win but it sure FEELS like the Nets are going to win this

  123. The Nets have Durant and the Bucks have Giannis, so if this goes down to the wire I think we know how it ends.

  124. I can’t root for the Nets but at the same time all things considered the Bucks don’t deserve to win this series…

  125. I know it’s his thing, but Harden, dude, no look passes are not a good idea in Game 7 of the Eastern Conference Semi-Finals.

  126. Barkley was right, the Bucks just play unbelievably stupid basketball. They should be destroying this series with their talent and everyone healthy but they keep shooting themselves on the foot. Middleton taking fadeway turnaround jumpers with Brown on him who’s like 4 inches smaller than him. It’s insane.

    I used to really root for Giannis and the Bucks but they simply don’t deserve to make it far.

  127. How does Budz not challenge that foul on Holiday? He went straight up and it was his 5th foul.

  128. Brian Cronin:
    I think Durant might be superhuman. How does he not look exhausted?

    Has literally anything changed with him after a crippling injury? He looks exactly the same as he did before, he might not be human after all.

  129. The Nets are really seeing the downside with their other players of not giving them any rest. Some sloppy defense.

  130. Ugh what a garbage game.

    I’ll have to root for the Hawks tomorrow so we at least get some watchable basketball in the east finals, I don’t think I can handle Sixers and Bucks out-trashing each other.

  131. I hate that the Bucks were bailed out twice by terrible shots that bricked badly enough that they rebounded it.

  132. Insanity all around, what the hell is going on. At least it’s an entertaining dumpster fire now

  133. The Bucks played Durant well, he just made a sick shot. The Nets have got to try to foul Holiday out.

  134. Durant is unguardable 1 on 1, but how do the Bucks not put Giannis on him for the final posession so he has long hands to shoot over, or double him? Crazytown. They lose this game, expect their coach to get fired in a few weeks.

  135. Owen:
    Aesthetically unpleasant in some ways but damn exciting?

    Exactly. Terrible, entertaining basketball

  136. underrated aspect of Duran’ts game… his fitness. He has no muscle, but never seems tired

  137. Yeah, Brook plays amazing defense. It’s shocking. All series.

    That tying shot from Giannis just hung on the rim. Could easily have rolled out.

    People give Giannis shit but he played an amazing game

    And yeah, amazing from Jrue. Strange end to the game but pretty on brand with the rest of it

  138. Durant finally ran out of gas.

    I even wanted the Bucks to win and I still found that pretty unsatisfying

  139. Haven’t wanted to say anything. As a NYer, I hate to say that I rooted for the Bucks, but I simply hated the Durant, Harden and Irving team.

  140. Bud looks like a man forced to sleep in his car after a bad divorce…

    I’m okay with the Nets losing,
    but Durant nearly pulled out a miracle,
    carrying a one legged Harden, Griffin with his 70 years old knees,
    a masked man and a bearded homeless from Brooklyn
    literally one inch away from winning the series…

    Brook Lopez the unsung hero.

  141. Luckily for Durant, I don’t suspect this team is going anywhere next season, and likely will add an additional interesting piece in free agency. Plus whoever they get for Dinwiddie in a sign and trade.

    But boy, the Bucks sure needed to see Holiday come through like that after the trade for him!

  142. I don’t see it as terrible basketball. It was a ’90s-type brawl, which is a form of basketball. I’d rather watch this than a 3-pt shootout where zero defense is played. Multiple guys played over 50 minutes and left everything on the floor. Not to mention that two all-time greats had epic games, and one hit a massive shot to send it into overtime after playing all 48 minutes and scoring 40 points. I’m sorry, calling it garbage or trash is fucking stupid.

  143. Yeah the Nets will be heavy favorites to win it next year, but none of those guys are getting any younger.

  144. i gotta say steve nash really worked out as coach… ran really nice plays for durant.. made decent adjustments as the series went on…. cut his rotation when he needed to…. not sure how much of that was mda but i think he’s a keeper in this league based on what we saw…

    we’ll see what happens next year with the nets… they need some way to deal with both embiid and giannis.. they’re gonna have to get through either of those guys and even with everyone healthy i imagine philly would still give them a pretty hard challenge….

  145. The beauty of the Nets losing is that it cements the Knicks in as the feel-good story of NY basketball for the next few months. Anything less than a finals appearance was a failure for them.

  146. Different people have different ideas of what makes a sport enjoyable:
    Z-man: “you’re fucking stupid”

  147. Now I honestly don’t care who wins from here on out. The only teams I wanted to lose for sure were the Celts, Nets and Lakers. But it’s pretty clear that a less than immortal team is going to win it this year.

  148. Bruno Almeida:
    Different people have different ideas of what makes a sport enjoyable:
    Z-man: “you’re fucking stupid”

    Yeah, some people think Rodin’s sculptures and Matisse’s paintings and Beethoven’s symphonies are “garbage” and “trash.” They’re fucking stupid.

    Generally speaking, if one doesn’t want to be called fucking stupid, one shouldn’t use words like “garbage” and “trash” to describe things that other people are really into, especially if they have some level of respect for those people.

  149. There’s exactly one good player in this game

    For all the justifiable love KD got tonight Giannis was just as good, the Nets had absolutely no answer for him

  150. This game was a healthy Bucks team barely squeaking out a win over a heroballing Kevin Durant, Fat James Harden and a bunch of relative nonentities. Props to Durant for almost dragging his team over the finish line, he is truly an amazing player and deserves all the credit. The effort level in this game was high and it was entertaining in that sense.

    It was still not very good basketball, and either of the teams that were on the floor tonight would have gotten steamrolled by a legit championship caliber team.

  151. Z-man: Everybody choked. And everyone came through. That’s what made this game so great.

    Blake played well. Brown played well. Harden did all he could. Durant was terrific. Harris choked.

  152. Z-man: Yeah, some people think Rodin’s sculptures and Matisse’s paintings and Beethoven’s symphonies are “garbage” and “trash.” They’re fucking stupid.

    Generally speaking, if one doesn’t want to be called fucking stupid, one shouldn’t use words like “garbage” and “trash” to describe things that other people are really into, especially if they have some level of respect for those people.

    Oh fuck off. I should have known better and stayed away from this trash ass condescending garbage the first time. I’m off.

  153. It’s been a weird ass season all the way through. I thought the weirdness would end with the beginning of the postseason and the usual culprits would at least make the Conference Finals. But here we are with neither the Nets nor Lakers past the second round of the playoffs. It really feels weird to see what becomes of the rest of the postseason.

  154. #Hey KYN, there were a lot of greeks at Barclays Center greeting Giannis. Nice.#

    Greece’s on fire!!!
    Very Happy for Giannis!
    Even More Happy for Nets elimination!!!
    That was a fkn entertaining game!
    KD is GOD but sometimes BALLS beat TALENT!

  155. It’s been a weird ass season all the way through. I thought the weirdness would end with the beginning of the postseason and the usual culprits would at least make the Conference Finals. But here we are with neither the Nets nor Lakers past the second round of the playoffs. It really feels weird to see what becomes of the rest of the postseason.

    It’s fascinating to have really no idea who will win it all. I guess the Suns sure look like they’re in the best spot, but who the heck knows? Paul might have, like, legit Coronavirus, right? Maybe he comes back with breathing problems. I have no clue.

  156. Is the moon there when nobody looks?

    Second Hour at the Meetinghouse – The Age of Quantum Entanglement with Louisa Gilder

    what a super neat person louisa is…i enjoyed her disjointed pattern of speech…strangely it’s really easy to follow…her passion and joy for the subject is super appealing…

    i am even more confused now reference bell’s theorem – i really would have assumed there was some type of programmed information within these tiny particles to make them behave in a certain way…although the thought that these tiny particles have different physical rules does seem to make sense…

    from my perspective it would seem to serve a purpose, but why…

    thanks for sharing unreason :)

  157. I’m in middle ground between you two, Bruno and Z-Man. Yeah, for the basketball we’re used to nowadays, it was an ugly brick contest, i even made some remarks on it. But on the other hand, it was an epic battle of hustle/fight between those two teams, and that’s very entertaining also. I don’t know around what age are you, Bruno, but i’m guessing you weren’t here to watch those epic Knicks teams of the 90s, were you? Because in those days, i would get mad at Starks, Mase, Oak for bricking it, and later LJ, Spree, Camby would do it also, but then it was “defense! defense! defense!” and we’d stop the other team which would erase the brick because it didn’t made no harm. When you focus your mind that what matters is if the score progresses, it’s a very addicting game to follow. In the end i liked it a lot, and the OT was 4-2 (i don’t count those FTs, it was just another stupid act by the referees to force everybody to play some tenths of seconds more) which obviously is a very “bricking” way of finishing it, but the hustle was there and they fought through it. Giannis came up stronger by that time, maybe because he rested a little more than KD.
    In short, i’d prefered less bricks and a little more accuracy, like you Bruno, but still with very good defense/hustle, like Z-man.

  158. Brian Cronin: It’s fascinating to have really no idea who will win it all.

    Same here, and that’s really amazing. Everybody can win it, and we’ll have to wait to know who that team will be. :)
    I think now the Hawks have a non zero chance to make it, what do you guys think?

  159. geo: Second Hour at the Meetinghouse – The Age of Quantum Entanglement with Louisa Gilder
    what a super neat person louisa is…i enjoyed her disjointed pattern of speech…strangely it’s really easy to follow…her passion and joy for the subject is super appealing…

    Geo, yesterday i watched this same video when i read Unreason’s post. But we’re not “entangled”, it’s just Google that gives the same results around the world, i guess. :P
    Really liked Louisa a lot, very relatable, and I liked that she didn’t prepare what she was going to say and most of the time, as she gestures a lot, we’d already got what she had to “say” and there she was still trying to find the right words. I found it very interesting.

  160. As long as ATL has a fully heathy core they might be as good as any other candidates out there right now. If they get past philly who knows…

  161. cybersoze:
    I’m in middle ground between you two, Bruno and Z-Man. Yeah, for the basketball we’re used to nowadays, it was an ugly brick contest, i even made some remarks on it. But on the other hand, it was an epic battle of hustle/fight between those two teams, and that’s very entertaining also.

    I probably could have used the word “shallow” instead of “stupid”, but whatever. It truly boggles my mind that any fan of the game would refer to this kind of a basketball game as “trash” and “garbage.” To me, it’s the fan equivalent of being a one-trick pony. It was a very physical defensive battle where nearly every dribble, pass and shot was contested. No one gave an inch. There were only 20 turnovers combined. Both teams shot over 40%. The Bucks shot 42% on 3’s (15-36.) There were a total of 46 FT’s, which is a pretty low number in a game like this, the refs largely let them play. All four quarters were competitive, each team scored over 22 in each quarter. Every starter played over 40 minutes except PJ Tucker, who fouled out. 5 players played over 50 minutes.

    The point isn’t that I prefer this kind of game per se, but that it is just as entertaining and compelling as a high-assist shootout, and is just a different kind of great basketball. You don’t have to prefer it to appreciate it.

  162. The only drawback for me was knowing that no matter who won I was going to be rooting against the winner in the next two rounds. Other than that it was a fun 4th quarter/OT. (I guess if you’re not entertained by someone playing 1-on-5 to a stalemate for 52.5 minutes, then I suggest you avoid watching these other things too: Spassky vs the Marshall Chess Club, Davie Hogan in a pie-eating contest, Fezzik storming the castle, the Spy Cobra vs Meerkats episode of BBC Earth, and any Jackie Chan movie.)

  163. I am genuinely baffled by the depth of dislike I see expressed for the Nets.

    To be sure, I’m no fan of the superfriends model of roster building and it was gratifying to see the latest iteration of it run aground but the satisfaction I took in their untimely demise was mostly a generic “justice was served” rather than the wicked pleasure one gets from a deeply felt schadenfreude.

    I lived in the SF Bay Area in the early ’90s and the ubiquitous insufferability of know nothing bandwagon 49er fans (most of whom did not even know the NFL existed prior to 1981) engendered in me a healthy antipathy for that franchise. Every game they lost felt like a great victory to me. Our own cdiggy has frequently posted about the torments suffered at the hands of the smug, overly entitled Laker fanbase (and, yes, we’ve all met those fans regardless of where one lives) So hating the Lakers has always made a lot of sense and is just good, clean fun to boot!

    But the Nets?

    I suppose if I personally knew of a single Nets fan whose life was made more miserable by their ouster from the tourney then I might have taken much greater pleasure in their downfall. Sadly, I do not. I figure they must be out there somewhere… only I’ve never encountered any of them in the wild. It’s true that whenever I watch a game broadcast from the Barclays Center, I always see people in the stands. Are all of them members of that rare and elusive tribe? And, if so, where do they hide once they leave the arena?

    All I need is one. Just one truly diehard, really obnoxious “Nets rule, Knicks suck” kinda fan to allow me to experience more than the tepid “yeah, that’s nice” I felt yesterday at the misfortune of that other New York team. If there are any of you out there reading this, please post here ASAP and help to fill this void in my life as a sports fan.

  164. You really can’t infer much of anything about one’s intelligence from what kind of basketball games they enjoy watching

  165. You really can’t infer much of anything about one’s intelligence from what kind of basketball games they enjoy watching

    stop pimping your knick tshirt ideas fuckface

  166. Stupid, shallow, or not….I’m glad the Nets crashed and burned.

    And wait, while Fezzik storming the castle was impressive, what about Inigo being stabbed, bleeding out, yet still exacting his revenge and riding away?
    :-)

  167. The antipathy for the Nets is mostly due to the following things;
    1) they moved to Brooklyn and immediately set out on a mission to replace the Knicks as New York’s team (and their Russian oligarch owner was hardly more likable than Dolan)
    2) after demolishing the team by trading their entire draft stash for the corpses of Garnett and Pierce (two of the most hated Knicks-killers ever btw) they rebuilt faster than we did.
    3) For better or for worse, they pulled off the 2-superstar coup after Dolan promised a very fruitful free agency period in the aftermath of the KP trade. They literally pulled the rug out from under us. And at the time, there was no end in sight for Knicks ineptitude. And when they traded for Harden, it seemed like they were locks for a cakewalk to a title, while we were supposedly on our way to another disaster of a #8 pick. And It’s not like Harden, Kyrie, or Durant are all that likable.
    4) as I said earlier, given the progress we made this year, only a championship would have made the Nets the best basketball story in NY for this season. Going down in the second round solidified it as a relatively bad season compared to expectations for them.
    5) it is still highly likely that they will contend for a championship in the next two years, but at least the prospects of a dynasty have significantly dimmed.

  168. thenoblefacehumper:
    You really can’t infer much of anything about one’s intelligence from what kind of basketball games they enjoy watching

    Even brilliant people can say really dumb things from time to time. I certainly don’t think either JK47 or Bruno are unintelligent and enjoy their commentary, but their take on this game is incredibly shallow. This was a Lagavulan 16 of a game. You may hate scotch, but if you call it garbage or trash to anyone who knows his/her spirits, you are going to come off as lacking knowledge and/or palate sophistication.

  169. Happy Father’s Day to everyone, especially the fathers among us. I hope we can put differences aside today of all days.

  170. Well look, like I said, the level of effort was high. I certainly didn’t want to change the channel. I was entertained. This still wasn’t elite basketball. This was two club fighters throwing haymakers, not Leonard and Hearns boxing beautifully and making bold strategic adjustments and all that. This was William “Caveman” Lee vs John LoCicero. YouTube that one if you don’t know it.

    I don’t like the way the Bucks play, I think their fugly offense gets exposed in the playoffs every year. They (barely) beat a badly hobbled Nets team because Fat Harden was at like 40% and Kyrie was in street clothes. They cobbled together enough fugly possessions to squeak out a win but there’s a large body of work now that confirms that they play a dumb brand of basketball.

    The Nets had no choice but to heroball this one— I don’t blame them. I just don’t like the way the Bucks play.

  171. I have always rooted for metro-area teams against all teams but my primary metro area teams, but in the case of the Nets they have built up a reservoir of goodwill with me because of the good deeds they did for my school during the Bruce Ratner era, which I realize is twice removed. The Nets were quite generous. They gave my and other schools up to 100 tickets to five games a season. While given these seats would have been unsold, the team went beyond that. After my students sent Ratner thank you notes, the next time we went to a game, Ratner’s SO found me and had me select two students to sit courtside, which came with club seat privileges. She gave me her email and had me notify her each time we were going so that she could repeat the gesture. The looks on the students faces sitting court side was priceless.

  172. If you grew up and became a die-hard Knicks fan during the 1990’s like I did then playoff games like last night are beautiful to watch.

  173. Off topic, but:

    Who is the consensus worst player ever to make all-nba first team? D’Andre Jordan? Joakim Noah? Latrell Sprewell? (I’m not familiar enough with the pre-modern era players to know who stands out from those years). I suppose it’s probably Jordan, who only made it because the league couldn’t accept that 6’6” Draymond Green played 500 minutes at center that year. But Jordan made other all-nba teams in his career, whereas Noah and Spree don’t really have much else on their respective resumes.

  174. I like the Bucks a lot and they’re who I want to win a championship, but they do not win that series without Bruce Brown’s egregious mistake down the stretch of Game 3. He should actually be cut from the team because that mistake cost his bosses millions of dollars in revenue, but that’s another story for a different day.

    The Nets don’t need to change anything to their major contributors. Bring back everybody, pray for better health, and if their big guns stay healthy they’ll win it all next year. There’s no better player in the NBA playoffs than Kevin Durant, and he should have Harden, Irving, Harris, and Griffin around him going forward. Put together some bench guys that make sense and you have a team that can dominate just about anybody in the league.

  175. Donnie Walsh:
    Off topic, but:

    Who is the consensus worst player ever to make all-nba first team? D’Andre Jordan? Joakim Noah? Latrell Sprewell? (I’m not familiar enough with the pre-modern era players to know who stands out from those years). I suppose it’s probably Jordan, who only made it because the league couldn’t accept that 6’6” Draymond Green played 500minutes at center that year. But Jordan made other all-nba teams in his career, whereas Noah and Spree don’t really have much else on their respective resumes.

    It’s easily DeAndre Jordan.

  176. JK47: This was two club fighters throwing haymakers, not Leonard and Hearns boxing beautifully and making bold strategic adjustments and all that. This was William “Caveman” Lee vs John LoCicero. YouTube that one if you don’t know it.

    There is little in the statistical profile of the game to justify this characterization. It was a defensive struggle. There were relatively few turnovers or free throws. People missed shots because they were strongly contested, not because it was a brickfest. If anything, it was one of those fights where the ref let them clutch and grab and there weren’t a lot of haymakers landed, ending in a split decision.

    JK47: I don’t like the way the Bucks play, I think their fugly offense gets exposed in the playoffs every year. They (barely) beat a badly hobbled Nets team because Fat Harden was at like 40% and Kyrie was in street clothes. They cobbled together enough fugly possessions to squeak out a win but there’s a large body of work now that confirms that they play a dumb brand of basketball.

    Well they also swept the relatively healthy Miami Heat. And their brand of basketball is similar to the ’90s Ewing Knicks brand, which I assume is what made you a Knicks fan in the first place. Sure, the Nets are hobbled, but they are still a good team with an all-time great at the end of his prime trying like hell to carry his team on his back to the next round where they would be whole again and likely win a chip. The Bucks had every opportunity to give in to their demons, but their big 3 stepped up in critical moments to will them to a win. Their fugly offense still put up 109 pts in regulation and hit 15 3’s at 42% with only 7 TOs.

    It’s fine not to like it, just like it’s fine not to like Lagavulin 16. Doesn’t…

  177. If anything, it was one of those fights where the ref let them clutch and grab and there weren’t a lot of haymakers landed, ending in a split decision.

    Thanks for making my point better than I made it.

    This was like Mike Tyson vs Razor Ruddock II. Not a great fight.

  178. an rj barrett stan account: I like the Bucks a lot and they’re who I want to win a championship, but they do not win that series without Bruce Brown’s egregious mistake down the stretch of Game 3. He should actually be cut from the team because that mistake cost his bosses millions of dollars in revenue, but that’s another story for a different day.

    The Nets spent a lot of money to keep Joe Harris. He was the guy who they needed to step up for them, and was probably the closest thing to a goat (the bad kind) in the series except for out-of-shape Harden. Jeff green gave them nothing in game 7, and Claxton and Shamet came up small. Brown made that mistake, but overall he played a very good series, especially defensively.

  179. JK47: Thanks for making my point better than I made it.

    This was like Mike Tyson vs Razor Ruddock II. Not a great fight.

    Nah, because Tyson clearly won and it was a unanimous decision. This one went to overtime and was close from beginning to end. The winner wasn’t decided until the final shot.

  180. JK, serious question: Did you like the Ewing era Knicks? And if yes, why is the Bucks brand of basketball any less appealing to you?

    Just to elaborate, I would describe the Bucks brand of offensive basketball as “unrefined” rather than “dumb.” Jrue Holiday is very much like Derek Harper. Not a guy who you can run a sophisticated offense around. And Ewing was way more of a black hole than Giannis.

  181. I don’t really get the “if you’re a 90’s Knicks fan you have to like 1990’s style basketball” argument. It’s not 1995 anymore.

    It’s like saying “you’re a fan of the 1965 Dodgers, why aren’t you in favor of bunting all the time and letting your starting pitchers throw 300 innings?”

  182. Z-man: And Ewing was way more of a black hole than Giannis.

    What do you mean? :O
    Are you talking about the 2 times HoF Patrick Ewing, with the jersey on MSG’s rafters, and that brought luck in the one and only time he represented the Knicks in the NBA Draft (2019, with the 3rd pick, later RJ as we all know), or it’s another Ewing? :P

  183. Kinda weird game 1 of the western conference finals is going to be a duel between Devon Booker & Paul George.

  184. Count de Pennies, the issue is not with Nets fans but with the player’s themselves.

    I personally like Kyrie a lot, but he’s widely despised. Durant is a basketball genius but he snubbed us, talked shit about us, and is constantly feuding with fans on twitter; he’s very easy to root against. And Harden is a cynical, foul hunting player who few people enjoy watching; and he quit on his team this year.

    Fuck ‘em all, I say.

    (Side note: how ironic is it that Durant and Irving chose the Nets based on the their alleged infrastructure, and then they went there and gutted it within a year? There is literally nothing on this team from the organization they supposedly wanted to join. They just wanted an empty vessel.)

  185. Last night’s game was “garbage”, the hawks are “mediocre.” I don’t know dude. Sounds like you’re the jaded cynical one who maybe needs to take a break from watching basketball so you can miss it and fall back in love with it. That was a super fun game to watch. Neither team was draining shot after shot but it wasn’t a brick fest either. This isn’t NBA Jam.

  186. If you don’t enjoy a game 7 that goes to OT then fuck it…
    In these games it’s all about Will to Win. Not about finesse and beauty

  187. Cousins with an unexpected impact,
    Phoenix’s still getting quality shots despite Paul’s absence.

  188. I almost forgot they had rondo on the bench, ever since he gave kawhi the evil eye he’s been kind of scarce…

    I love his perpetual: great, you fucked up again look of disgust…

  189. Payne has been pretty good last few seasons. Think hes a UFA we should take a look at him.

  190. Reggie Jackson rebirth is outstanding… and he’s playing at the minimum.
    I can’t help but root for him,
    he’s born in Italy in the town where I did my military duties… :-)

    On another subject, the Yankees turned their third triple play of the year…

  191. Where’s Morris?

    [edit] Oh, i see him now, must have been on the bench a lot of time. (i only started to watch on the 2nd half)

  192. Very nice game if you consider that Paul and Leonard are out…
    The Suns are fun to watch.

  193. I had a vision, Kevin Knox faking a corner pass and dunking in a conference final…

    Nah… I need to stop drinking too much…

  194. Max:
    I had a vision, Kevin Knox faking a corner pass and dunking in a conference final…

    Nah… I need to stop drinking too much…

    Yes but three on three.

  195. How the hell did the Clippers just turn this into a 2-point game? Suns were up ten 90 seconds ago!

    Edit: nevermind

  196. Every single one of us watching this game is thinking the exact same thing watching Bridges play lol.

  197. BigBlueAL: Every single one of us watching this game is thinking the exact same thing watching Bridges play lol.

    Yeah, we’d be way ahead if we had Mikal

  198. Remember the outrage at the rumors that Phil was looking to trade KP for Booker and picks?

    O what might have been!

  199. I know I’m a “Thibs Hater” and all but I’m beginning to think Monty Williams got jobbed.

  200. There are a few pure scorers out there in our draft range. Cam Thomas, Bones Hyland, Charles Bassey and Luka Garza come to mind. Would it be so terrible to have a few of them on our squad?

  201. Count de Pennies:
    Remember the outrage at the rumors that Phil was looking to trade KP for Booker and picks?

    O what might have been!

    If Phil had made that deal I think we’d easily forgive him for all his other horrible moves

  202. I probably wouldn’t have been thrilled about him shooting 30% from three in the semis, but yes, he had a good game today, he must be a top tier superstar.

  203. I have to confess I was rooting for the Nets. I agree, they are easy to hate for all the reasons mentioned above but they are still a NYC team, and one that my brother root for, and they even used to be a NJ team. Nets fans don’t have any of the obnoxious arrogance of Lakers or Celtics fans, who seem to think the world owes them something and obviously God will give it to them. Not only that, but both Porzingis and Harden were injured playing against Giannis. Anyway, it wasn’t an entirely a rational decision, but it’s how I felt.

  204. Knick fan not in NJ: confess I was rooting for the Nets

    Yeah, I’ve rooted for ’em too in my past. It was all the way back to the late 1970s, right after the team drafted Bernard King out of Tennessee. King started off his rookie season in NJ like a house afire and I loved watching him play. On multiple occasions, I even made the long drive from NYC to Piscataway to see him live when the Nets played there. Shit – I even remember listening to John Sterling – who did the radio play by play for the Nets back then – and his silly call of “Bernard. Sky. BB King” whenever BK would make a spectacular play. I guess one could say that I was kinda sorta a Nets fan in those days.

    My brief fling with the Nets came to an abrupt end in King’s third year when the Nets traded him to Utah for Rich Kelley, a total stiff of a center. I was fucking pissed. Of course, it all worked out for the best when a few years later Bernard found his way on to the Knicks, uniting one of my favorite players in the league with my favorite team. But I’ve never again felt any affection for the Nets since then. For the most part, I’m utterly indifferent to them. Any hostility I may feel for them is probably more rooted in residual anger over that long ago trade than in anything they may be up to in Brooklyn these days.

  205. Yeah Donovan or Shai would have probably made us a bit too good to get RJ but Bridges is the guy we could have drafted that would have given us a high floor dude but he probably wouldn’t have hurt our draft position for RJ. RJ and Bridges we’d be set at the 2/3 for the next decade. So dumb drafting Knox instead.

  206. Trae having a horrible game and the Hawks are winning. Not a good sign for the Sixers.

  207. JK47:
    I don’t really get the “if you’re a 90’s Knicks fan you have to like 1990’s style basketball” argument. It’s not 1995 anymore.

    It’s like saying “you’re a fan of the 1965 Dodgers, why aren’t you in favor of bunting all the time and letting your starting pitchers throw 300 innings?”

    Whut?! Are you really saying that basketball was garbage in the early ’90s? Or that baseball was garbage in the ’60s and ’70s?

    These are embarrassing takes. Please stop.

  208. Count de Pennies:
    Remember the outrage at the rumors that Phil was looking to trade KP for Booker and picks?

    O what might have been!

    Some of us couldn’t understand why KBers were mocking the Suns at the time for maxing Booker. Well, one of us anyway.

  209. Count de Pennies:
    I am genuinely baffled by the depth of dislike I see expressed for the Nets.

    I lived in the SF Bay Area in the early ’90s and the ubiquitous insufferability of know nothing bandwagon 49er fans (most of whom did not even know the NFL existed prior to 1981) engendered in me a healthy antipathy for that franchise. Every game they lost felt like a great victory to me.Our own cdiggy has frequently posted about the torments suffered at the hands of the smug, overly entitled Laker fanbase (and, yes, we’ve all met those fans regardless of where one lives)So hating the Lakers has always made a lot of sense and is just good, clean fun to boot!

    But the Nets?

    All I need is one. Just one truly diehard, really obnoxious “Nets rule, Knicks suck” kinda fan to allow me to experience more than the tepid “yeah, that’s nice” I felt yesterday at the misfortune of that other New York team…

    I was telling JK47 yesterday that my Laker coworkers (except one) are now pivoting to pulling for the Clips ’cause LA. Two of em tried to troll me about the Nets’ losing, to which I reminded them that I do not care about the Nets the same way they (supposedly) don’t care about the Clippers. But they tried for the whole “well LA is still in it while New York is out” angle which is just fucking lame. (Con’t)

  210. James Jones of the Phoenix Suns just won GM of the year, and I think he deserves it. But Leon Rose got one vote too (along with a bunch of other GMs who got one vote).

  211. Z-man: Whut?! Are you really saying that basketball was garbage in the early ’90s? Or that baseball was garbage in the ’60s and ’70s?

    These are embarrassing takes. Please stop.

    That is not what I am saying at all.

    The 2021 Bucks aren’t even a great defensive team. They were 10th in the NBA in defensive rating. I’m supposed to like the way they play though, because 90’s Knicks, and if I don’t I’m “stupid” or “shallow” and I can’t appreciate the fine things in life like our own oh-so-refined single malt scotch drinking Z-Man.

    I don’t like the way the Bucks play, and I don’t think they’re a great team, and I don’t see what they have to do with the 90’s Knicks, who were not similar to them. If the Bucks truly played great defense, you might have a point, but they don’t, so you don’t.

  212. I guess I do feel some type of way about the fact the Nets tore it down – and I mean for awhile they had no assets at all – and rebuilt themselves to title contenders. I mean, honestly if we’re being non-emotional about it you’d have to hand it to them. As a fan, I feel mixed bc on one hand “damn KD and Kyrie really chose the Nets over us???”; on the other hand, the Dolan stench is so real I almost can’t blame them.

  213. there was a time when i didn’t understand why everyone hated dwight. but he really is the worst.

  214. the thing i felt most when the nets loss was relief…and, all of that points back to the nets big 3…i got absolutely nothing against their franchise or fans – or anyone else on the roster, staff, front office – except for irving, harden and KD…

    even my dislike for them ain’t that deep…

    kyrie irving is a lot of fun to watch play basketball, i like this version of harden (i have a feeling he’ll show up next year 20 lbs or so lighter), KD is one of the best players of his generation, he’s amazing…they’re all pretty vocal stars though, i just didn’t want any of them to have the chance to talk any shit about the knicks reference this year’s season…

  215. Flagrant for the head hit there or the little push at the end?

  216. That is not what I am saying at all.

    of course it wasn’t, but Z-Man’s going for National Troll of the Month and he needs to have as many bad faith arguments as possible to edge out a 14 year old anti-vaxxer who has been deftly flaming posters in the the comments section of USA Today.

  217. Bob Neptune moved on to USA Today? Is that a lateral move?

    Not really sure where the foul was on Harris. And you could have called a loose ball foul on him before the rebound.

    Amazing Gallo is finally relevant in a playoff series playing for Atlanta after looking like dogshit against us.

  218. Hard to generate offense when your weakside floor spacers are Simmons in the dunker’s spot and Thybulle at the elbow.

  219. For every time that people on KB have roasted a player for playing “hero ball”, I would like to offer up Ben Simmons as playing “anti-hero ball.” I submit that Trae Young, even shooting 3 for 20, has been more valuable on offense in this game than Simmons.

  220. JK47: That is not what I am saying at all.

    The 2021 Bucks aren’t even a great defensive team. They were 10th in the NBA in defensive rating. I’m supposed to like the way they play though, because 90’s Knicks, and if I don’t I’m “stupid” or “shallow” and I can’t appreciate the fine things in life like our own oh-so-refined single malt scotch drinking Z-Man.

    I don’t like the way the Bucks play, and I don’t think they’re a great team, and I don’t see what they have to do with the 90’s Knicks, who were not similar to them. If the Bucks truly played great defense, you might have a point, but they don’t, so you don’t.

    Who’s saying that the Bucks are an all-time great defensive team? Certainly not me. All I am saying that game 7 was an excellent game that could be appreciated in a number of ways, especially for the defensive intensity on both ends. As to the Bucks, Giannis is a DPOY, that Jrue Holiday is a first team all-NBA defender at his position, and PJ Tucker is a very good defender, and they are certainly an elite defensive team by today’s standards. Maybe not the ’90s Knicks but really good. They won 4 out of 5 against the Nets after being down 2-0, and swept a very good Heat team. I don’t see the reason why you are so down on them.

    You flat out said that the game was garbage, with no nuance or reservation. That’s a far cry from “It’s not my cup of tea anymore, I prefer a more offensively oriented game and now find the defensive oriented ’90s Knicks-style basketball I used to love to be almost unwatchable.”

  221. Is Philly that much better of a market than Atlanta?

    I don’t know, these NBA playoffs have been more entertaining than most I can remember. That was epic drama last night. I understand JK47’s point, it seemed innocuous to me, not sure why we are talking about it.

    Trae looks so small sometimes out there….

  222. they really shouldn’t hack simmons when they’re up. even if he goes 1-2 the opportunity to get points with the clock stopped is too valuable to give.

  223. As to the Bucks, Giannis is a DPOY, that Jrue Holiday is a first team all-NBA defender at his position, and PJ Tucker is a very good defender, and they are certainly an elite defensive team by today’s standards.

    They were 10th in the league in defensive rating. That seems… not elite. They were a better offensive team than a defensive team. I don’t see why I have to like the way they play to keep my 90’s Knicks cred.

    Like I said, I was entertained, because it was a close game. I didn’t change the channel and put on House Hunters. I appreciated the effort level. I even wanted the Bucks to win, and they did.

    They’re still not a fun or aesthetically pleasing team to watch.

  224. Simmons’ 5 points in a game 7 not gonna cut it. Is he trade bait? Embid has to be getting frustrated

  225. Mmm I love these desperation fouls and free throws, riveting ending to a great game

  226. My bet is that Morey ships Simmons out before next season. Simmons for CJ McCollum works under the salary cap. Portland reboots with more defense. Philadelphia reboots with more offense.

  227. Ben Simmons is broken. Philly should try and trade him and get Embiid some real help.

  228. I lived to see Kevin Huerter interviewed after a game 7. I will tell my kids about this Father’s Day for years to come.

  229. I don’t know if I had money that I’d think a Kardashian was a score.

  230. Man…are we even sure Simmons could be traded for assets at this point? He’s still young so I’m sure someone would take him on, but I think the days of fantasizing about trading him for some massive haul are over.

  231. “don’t know if I had money that I’d think a Kardashian was a score.”

    hmmm…right

  232. Z-man: yawn…

    Sorry keep trying to convince us that things were better in 1993 when you were in the prime of your 60s

  233. BigBlueAL: Kourtney is definitely a score.

    I just figure they spend most of their time on their phones. Business or otherwise. I’d imagine men are more of an afterthought/plaything to them. Lol

  234. Hubert:
    Ben Simmons is Philly’s Eldrid Payton.

    Exactly.
    And there’s no place for a non-shooting backcourt player in the 2021 NBA.
    Morey has some work to do but it’ll not be easy to sell Simmons at his all-time low.

  235. JK47:
    Kourtney is the most annoying one of all

    How dare you say that! She’s easily the best looking of the 3 at least.

  236. What a game for Huerter and Gallo…
    Who would have thought that the Hawks could win a game-7 on the road with Trae shooting 5-23?

  237. Anyway, Ben Simmons dates one of the Jenner kids, not Kourtney. Kourtney goes out with the dude from Blink 182

    I am proud to say I needed to Google this and did not just know these factoids

  238. gonna be a long summer for philly…. give up two big leads in the series…. simmons passing up a layup… the thybulle foul… all those turnovers… just multiple epic choke jobs…

    they had many many opportunities to close this out early and they blew their best chance at a title…. lot of soul searching for everyone involved…

  239. I would trade low for Ben Simmons
    and
    would trade high for randle unless he pause his extension til next season to give us more flexibilty.

  240. damn…I gotta renew my people mag subscription…get caught up on all the important shit…

  241. JK47:
    Anyway, Ben Simmons dates one of the Jenner kids, not Kourtney. Kourtney goes out with the dude from Blink 182

    I am proud to say I needed to Google this and did not just know these factoids

    Sadly I knew Kourtney goes out with Travis Barker but no clue who Khloe currently goes out with except that I know she’s been with like half the NBA players.

  242. A few months ago Simmons was the main piece in Philly’s offer for Harden…
    Good times Daryl, good times…

  243. Doc Rivers was asked after the game if he thought Ben Simmons could be the point guard for a championship team and his response was “ I don’t know the answer to that right now”

    Wow

  244. Yeah, that was quite a response.

    He was a plus 1 and Embiid had 8 turnovers.

    I don’t know, I feel a little bad about him being the scapegoat here. As bad as he was…

  245. Hope the KNicks and sixers would make that trade knox and dallas first is good. Bullock also and payton if you want. hope 76ers is insane enough to do it.

    Before the season starts, randle to simmon is a no for philly but a yes to us.

  246. it is pretty crazy that this is now the second sixers player where they get the shooting yips on… simmons was a bad ft shooter but he was never this level of bad …. and he wasn’t anything close to this terrible in college…

    i am positive you could make a team work with simmons as your pg… and he is an amazing talent but he needs to learn how to shoot and he’s just going backwards….

  247. If Simmons shot 70% from the line Philadelphia wins the series. Hard not to put it on him.

  248. StatMuse
    @statmuse
    ·
    49m
    Doc Rivers 2020 playoff exit:
    G5 — Blew 16-point lead
    G6 — Blew 19-point lead
    G7 — Blew 12-point lead

    Doc Rivers 2021 playoff exit:
    G4 — Blew 18-point lead
    G5 — Blew 26-point lead at home
    G7 — Lost at home to opposing best player shooting 5-23

  249. Simmons shaking Gallo in the post, and then giving up a wide-open dunk to dump off the ball under the basket to a shorter teammate… I felt ashamed. Like I’d seen something I wasn’t supposed to see.

  250. The Honorable Cock Jowles: Sorry keep trying to convince us that things were better in 1993 when you were in the prime of your 60s

    lol, thing is, that actually happened, not some cannabinoid induced wishful thinking. Whats the o/u on when the elam ending will be adopted by the NBA? Cue: Zager & Evans

  251. Just saw this on /r/NBA, how’s this for a stat?

    Simmons put up 19 points!

    …in the last 3 games combined (and on 14 FG attempts & 20 free throw attempts lol).

  252. thought experiment: do we want Simmons on the Knicks?

    – this team needs more talent, period
    – Simmons makes the Knicks the #1 defense in the league
    – offense gets worse or treads water

  253. You had to really love the Knicks to enjoy watching their games in the mid-90s. All the non-Knicks obsessed people I knew pretty much hated watching their games and rooted for the Bulls or Sonics because they were so much, ahem, better… which seemed like blasphemy at the time, but I was the crazy one back then, not them… (and it wasn’t until I gained some perspective that I understood why. Once I’d matured, and saw the 2015 Golden State Warriors play basketball, I wanted to retroactively gouge my eyes out and forget everything I witnessed at MSG during my formative years.)

    That said, I still enjoyed the game last night. I think it was fatigue more that skill and/or style that made it a grind out. But I’m rooting for the Hawks to beat the Bucks for most of the reasons JK47 outlined. I just wish Kawhi and Paul were available to play against each other in the west. I want to root for the Clips, but I just don’t think they can win 8 more playoff games without Kawhi, and I prefer the Suns win it over the Bucks or Hawks.

  254. Gee, these mediocre Hawks are about to be in the eastern conference finals!

    This board has me rooting for extended Knicks mediocrity.

  255. Donnie Walsh:
    You had to really love the Knicks to enjoy watching their games in the mid-90s. All the non-Knicks obsessed people I knew pretty much hated watching their games and rooted for the Bulls or Sonics because they were so much, ahem, better… which seemed like blasphemy at the time, but I was the crazy one back then, not them… (and it wasn’t until I gained some perspective that I understood why. Once I’d matured, and saw the 2015 Golden State Warriors play basketball, I wanted to retroactively gouge my eyes out and forget everything I witnessed at MSG during my formative years.)

    You know, I came onto the Knicks in full in 1992. I haven’t taken to any extensive replaying of those games in full; I rather remember the beautiful defense they played and how much heart they played with. In a lot of ways, they’re style, as unaesthetic as it was particularly in hindsight, matched the onset of the hard core genre of rap that began to emerge at the time. I say that bc I came up in that culture of rap as a teen, so all of that came together to form the foundation of my love for the team. That, and I felt Ewing’s story of how he was teased and ridiculed heavily in college – i had spent a majority of my childhood being picked on regularly and socially treated as an afterthought. They would become not just my team, but part of my heart.

    Basketball is better now. There’s more talent, and the playstyles i feel allow for more flexibility for a variety of talent to shine. As much as this season’s team reminded me of those 90s Knicks, I was also reminded that we need to continue to upgrade our talent so someday we hopefully won’t have to keep in the shadows of the top talented teams in the league.

  256. I was reading about Guo Haowen. He is a 21 year old Chinese player invited to the combine. The full article is in Chinese, but can be translated in Chrome. His youth international
    accomplishments are very good. Here the link:

    https://baike.baidu.com/item/%E9%83%AD%E6%98%8A%E6%96%87/20628038

    To quote from the translation:

    In August 2018, Guo Haowen helped the Chinese U18 national youth team to the third place in the Asian Youth Basketball Tournament[1]. In April 2019, Guo Haowen participated in the International Basketball Summit[2]June 26, 2019 Guo Haowen Selected for Chinese Team for U19 Men’s Basketball World Cup[3]. In that tournament againstPuerto RicoBecame the first Chinese player to achieve a triple-double at the tournament[4] ?
    On May 2, 2020, Guo Haowen was selected as Asia’s top 20 U20 rising stars.[5]

    2 April 2018, 2018 GermanyManheimChinese U18 youth lost to the United States 96-100 at the International Youth Basketball Invitational. Guo Haowen from the Bayi team scored 38 points and 10 boards.[12]In August, Guo Haowen helped the Chinese U18 national youth team to the third place in the Asian Youth Basketball Tournament and qualified for the 2019 World Youth[1]

    On July 2, 2019, the 2019 U19 Men’s Basketball World Cup, the Chinese national youth team defeated Puerto Rico 99-94, ranked third in their group to enter qualifying. Guo Haowen scored a team-high 34 points and added 11 rebounds and 11 assists to become China’s first triple-double at the tournament and the third in tournament history.

  257. Fell asleep again (here the games are very late), and went to check the score thinking that with Embiid playing well the Sixers had pulled this one off, but the Hawks don’t cease to amaze people, i guess. And with Trae not having a good game, i think it’s time to give props to McMillan, he’s the mastermind behind this run and has done a terrific job all around.

  258. I’m sorry i brought the 90s Knicks in relation to the Nets-Bucks game, it was just to say i like tight games even if the players aren’t executing at their best (which in the playoffs, if defenses step up big time, happens more often).
    The 90s were great times, and btw i don’t want to erase it, Donnie, because it was the brand of basketball of that era and we played it best than all of the league except one or two teams. They’re my most memorable Knicks seasons, why should i erase it? :P
    Well, but that time is gone, as the game is played in a different way now.
    Let’s keep our path, the Hawks sending the Sixers home helped prove we’re not as bad as we looked in this playoffs. We’re maybe somewhere in between the amazing regular season we had and the awful playoffs. We gotta keep adding pieces.

  259. Donnie and CDiggy, I was lucky enough to have taken in nearly every game of the Knicks championship years, and those teams combined ball movement with great team defense. The ’90s Knicks did not move the ball as well but played even better individual and team defense. It was a highly successful team, and whatever DWs friends had to say about them, they were fun to watch. Let’s remember that Pat Riley of the Showtime Lakers was coaching them. If they were capable of playing a more uptempo ball movement style, they would have. If a team in constructed to best fit a certain style, you play that style.

    Dogs make lousy cats and cats make lousy dogs. If you try to have Jrue Holiday or Derek Harper play like Steph or CP3, you will lose, and vice versa. If you try to have Giannis or Ewing play like KD or LeBron, you will lose, and vice versa. That doesn’t make a team with Giannis and Jrue, or Ewing and Harper, inherently bad to watch. It’s just a different style. And the Bucks are proving that you can win with that plodding, bruising style today. If you have no tolerance or appreciation for that style, that’s about you, not about the basketball. No matter what the talent or how the rules are changed, big, physical teams who grind out offensive possessions are going to be around.

  260. And its not like the Bucks don’t move the ball at all or shoot 3’s or score in transition. They’re just not the vintage Spurs or Warriors or the ’80s Lakers or Celtics or the ’70’s Knicks.

  261. I wonder what dreck we could pawn off for Simmons right now. We could play small ball with him at the 5.

  262. bidiong the not so great:
    I wonder what dreck we could pawn off for Simmons right now. We could play small ball with him at the 5.

    But one of our problems against the hawks was having a center who wasn’t in any way a scoring threat. You mitigate Simmons’ lack of shooting a bit if he’s your center, but not enough.

  263. Alan: But one of our problems against the hawks was having a center who wasn’t in any way a scoring threat. You mitigate Simmons’ lack of shooting a bit if he’s your center, but not enough.

    I don’t disagree in the least that were offensively challenged at many positions. I’m figuring one of two things happens with him this off-season. He works his ass off and improves at the free throws and overall shooting, or he just becomes a complete lost cause. I think that’s gamble you’re taking. If #1 happens, you’re going to be really happy with the rest of the package.

  264. I happened to be in Phoenix for a depo very early on in my work life and went to Game 1 of the 1993 WCF (*) and as readers of the board know I was in MSG for all three games of the 2021 ECQF. The idea that there is some non-illusory “aesthetic” difference between those events is just beyond laughable. In terms of everything that matters about NBA basketball and sports they were essentially exactly the same.

    (*) It happened to be a 3-4 day stayover — we must have done multiple depos — so I wound up watching the Starks dunk game at Dan Majerle’s sports bar in downtown Phoenix.

  265. Classy of Doc to publicly sell out his max-contract point guard immediately after a tough loss in a big game. Just the kind of leader I want helming my ship.

  266. cybersoze: Let’s keep our path, the Hawks sending the Sixers home helped prove we’re not as bad as we looked in this playoffs. We’re maybe somewhere in between the amazing regular season we had and the awful playoffs. We gotta keep adding pieces.

    I agree, for the most part. Before the playoffs began I was convinced that reaching the playoffs was an amazing feat for this flawed Knicks team. Flawed does not mean bad. It means that the team was not ready to go “all the way”. I disagree with the “awful playoffs” assessment. Playoffs expose weaknesses.

    1. We need a dynamic player next to Julius Randle.
    2. Rose is a great #2 PG but a true #1 PG is needed.
    3. The team needs a big-bodied center in the playoffs.

    Could RJ, IQ and Mitch the solutions to those needs?

  267. bidiong the not so great:
    I wonder what dreck we could pawn off for Simmons right now. We could play small ball with him at the 5.

    I’m sorry. We already have players on this team that can’t score. There needs to be five scoring threats on the court at the same time. There also needs to be five strong defenders on the court at the same time. We had a few players on the roster that provided that this year. Randle, RJ, Rose, Taj and Bullock all gave you that. Mitch too, but he was out.

    I don’t mind the trio of Mitch, Noel and Taj at center. Mitch is that type of 2-way player but I want to see some post-up moves from him and a mid-range game.

    Replacing Payton, Burks, Frank and Knox should be the off-season mission.

  268. best i could come up with on the trade machine…

    sixers get Julius Randle, Kevin Knox
    twolves get Ben Simmons
    knicks get Anthony Edwards, Jarret Culver, Malik Beasley

    insert picks where appropriate

  269. If we sign Lonzo..should we start Quickley?
    That really intrigues me. I wonder if we can now add Ball and still afford to retain Burks and Rose. Taj I know we can keep. Noel may have priced himself out of our range- unless we don’t plan on keeping Mitch. But back to Quickley and Ball..that would open so much up for Randle and RJ. But..it kinda would pigeonhole us into banking on RJ and Randle developing into championship level players. But at the same time- we can keep 2-3 of our picks and build the team based on GREAT depth and coaching a la LB’s Pistons

    What to do here? Ball and Quickley is an intriguing combo for sure

  270. @Knick Fan Not in NJ
    That dude has already wasted two years, age 20 and 21 season playing COVID affected season being a starter for bad teams in Chinese league while showing minimal development. The best thing that could happen to him will be getting selected at the very late second round then goes to G league to develop. He definitely is below G league level at the moment.

  271. Just throwing this out to the worry warts on this site. From a story on the Kemba trade:

    ‘The trade also continues a consistent trend under Presti for Oklahoma City to work with players to find them a suitable new home, something he has done with Chris Paul, Danny Green and now Horford after acquiring all three within the past several months.’

    He costs too much, is now injury-prone, and regardless of those two points is not really on our (new) timeline. But outside of that, a great dribble-penetrator with a really good outside shot would surely be a lovely fit…

  272. Totes, I think there would be some very good things about a Ball/Quickley backcourt, but at the moment both are more combo guards than true playmakers. Lonzo’s great in the open court, not as much of a creator in the halfcourt. So, yes, we’d still be leaning on Randle and RJ’s playmaking. But a lineup of Ball/Quickley/RJ/Randle/Mitch feels like it would have a very high floor, at minimum. And then any of those guys (IQ or RJ in particular) level up even more on the playmaking front, then this could really be something.

  273. The more I think about it the more Simmons for McCollum is the trade I want to see. I’d really like to see Simmons tried in a pseudo-Draymond role where he’s the small ball 5 a lot of the times paired with strong guard play – ask him to play defense, push the ball off rebounds and steals, and in the half court set picks and play-make out of those situations. I really feel like the biggest issue of his time in Philadelphia was somebody becoming convinced that a 6’10” guy with no halfcourt offensive game outside of 3 feet was a “point guard”. I understand why it happened initially because coming into the league it seemed like he might become Lebron if the jump-shot just developed (and it’s easy to forget in retrospect that this seemed at least possible; 20% of his shots his rookie season were non-paint 2s and he shot 33% on them; not amazing obviously but as a baseline not awful). But it has been obvious for a couple years that he’s just never going to have a shot and they haven’t adjusted their perception of who he is as a player at all in light of that development (and in fairness the player he has become really doesn’t fit with Embiid).

  274. I think the issue is Simmons just isn’t a max player. If they had enough cap space free, they could get another scorer to pair with Embiid and Simmons shortcomings wouldn’t be as much of an issue. Same for Tobias Harris’s contract.

    Won’t ever happen, but would love to see Simmons on Denver. Give me two 7′ PGs running the offense, thank you.

  275. Simmons is a really interesting player but Philly is in win now mode and we don’t have anything they’d want for him. going to be fascinating to see what Morey cooks up

  276. Joinone:
    @Knick Fan Not in NJ
    That dude has already wasted two years, age 20 and 21 season playing COVID affected season being a starter for bad teams in Chinese league while showing minimal development. The best thing that could happen to him will be getting selected at the very late second round then goes to G league to develop. He definitely is below G league level at the moment.

    Thanks for the info. That’s a shame for him. I remember there was a young Chinese point guard who looked good to me when he was in the Olympics. He didn’t develop either. That’s a shame for China if their young players don’t develop.

  277. I really think Dinwiddie is going to be the play. I’m not sure Ball gives us enough offensive firepower and that’s what we lack, unless IQ can be more consistent or RJ can improve a lot more.

    Dinwiddie is an inefficient player, but it’s still an improvement over our offensive repertoire. It’s not like Rose was the paragon of efficiency last year.

    Definitely a 1yr deal though, want to sell on him as soon as possible.

  278. Kemba to Philly
    Simmons to NYK
    100 draft picks to OKC

    That, or Randle for Simmons.

  279. I don’t know. Simmons seems like a perfect “buy low” candidate.

    We started Payton all year and did pretty well despite that. And while Simmons can’t shoot either, he can score inside 5 feet/at the rim and is a way better player than Payton all around. If we got him and were able to fix his shooting at all, it would be a huge upgrade for us. Maybe he needs a change of scenery and a new shooting coach? He isn’t nearly as bad shooting as he was in this series.

    What would people be willing to trade for him? I’m curious.

  280. Not to go all Bargnani on you all, but it’s called basketball, not defense ball.

    That said, there was a big difference between 1991-1993, when Riley was exploiting the league inefficiency in trying to defeat a single team, and the mid 90s, when every team that wasn’t good enough to compete on talent resorted to the same slow and ugly style for every game. The 93 Knicks did it well, but they begat the 94 Knicks, who begat the 95 Cavs, who made the playoffs led by a Hot Rod Williams’ .496 TS% and made time tick backwards in the process. The devolution of the game was swift and painful, and was easily corrected because the problem was so obvious.

  281. Simmons has a ton of skill at everything but shooting and brings Ntilikina-esque defense with even more length and wingspan. I’d love to have him, but you’d have to build everything else around him, which would basically be space-and-pace with him driving and kicking constantly. While a lot of us would try to rationalize otherwise, he probably doesn’t work with any of RJ, Randle, and Mitch. Buying low on him and then building around him makes a ton of sense, but it would be a pretty big reboot and philosophical change for the Knicks as presently constituted.

  282. but here’s the thing. the jazz had a 120 ortg in the series. you are not going to beat that by posting rik smits or kevin duckworth or even david robinson or patrick ewing against marcus morris.

    One reason they didn’t win despite their efforts on offense was that the Clips were doing some of the same things to Utah they did to Dallas against KP. Dallas tried to adjust, but imho did the opposite of what they should have done.

    Almost every player is going to have a mismatch on some nights where the other guy is too quick, too good outside, too strong to handle inside etc..

    The taller stronger slower guys generally can’t defend the perimeter well against smaller quicker players, get caught in bad switches, and lose defensive value when they get dragged outside by small ball. That’s why small ball works against them.

    However, to some degree it’s a conscious choice on which skills you are going to work on, what you are going to try to do with your body, and what adjustments teams are going to make.

    When guys like that are spending their practice time shooting 3s they probably aren’t helping themselves stay on the court as much as if they learned to post up, play bully ball, and shoot over the smaller and weaker guys that are killing them now. They aren’t going to win a shootout with more skilled players. But that’s what teams are telling them to do (or what they are choosing to do). IMO, these players have to try to develop and use their God given bodies to keep themselves relevant and counter the bad mismatch they have now by creating a similar mismatch on the other side. Some will never be able to do. So be it. They are getting killed now against smart skilled good teams anyway. Some will though IF THEY TRY.

  283. If I was going to trade for Simmons I’d only want to give up a first this year and a first in a later year.

  284. The 76ers would obviously be way better off if Simmons had an outside shot and was a consistent scoring option. However, imo he’s taking way too much blame.

    Simmons is an elite defender, good playmaker, and can rebound. He knows his limitations on offense and generally stays within them. He does a LOT well. The problem is the 76ers have 2 major scoring options (Embiid and Harris). You need at least 3 consistent diverse scoring options unless you have 2 that are elite superstars (Harris is not).

    Simmons is not a shooter. So build a team around Embiid, Simmons, and Harris that has the correct balance and be thankful Simmons is as good as he as at the things he does well. Don’t blame Simmons for what he’s not because you aren’t a good enough team yet. He is what he is. He’s very good overall. If Simmons could shoot, he’d be top 5 in the league.

  285. Sorry but I’ve been watching basketball since the early 80’s. I’m not some philistine who hates the modern game but it has become more homogenized in playing style. Everyone is shooting a ton of 3’s and basically running similar styles on offense. The 80’s and 90’s had some AMAZING offensive teams like the 93 Suns, the 80’s Showtime Lakers, etc. Sure, the Knicks and Pistons played a bruising, defensive style that was “ugly” but not everyone played that way. You had run and gun, defensive teams, the triangle, etc. Scoring averages were pretty much in the 100’s until the mid 90’s.

    Here’s the thing about complaining about “brickfests.” Every team now passes on open mid range shots in order to take a “more efficient” 3. In that Nets/Bucks game I saw this multiple times where a player would get in the mid range and be relatively open but would kick it out for a more awkward 3 pointer. I like the game overall today still but I’ve watched many games these last few years where its possession after possession of both teams missing 3’s. And I wonder if the midrange being inefficient becomes a self fulfilling prophesy if teams are passing up good mid range shots for 3’s and end up only taking mid range shots when the possession is ending and its a more contested shot.

    Also, better defense leads to more steals which leads to fast break dunks and highlights…which are just as exciting as a 3 pointer going in. This is how the showtime Lakers scored so much. They were monsters in the open court off the steals.

    For me, I don’t want to see brick after brick of any shot. I don’t think Saturday’s game was that though. The shooting percentages weren’t awful for either team. Seeing players dive for loose balls, block shots, etc…that’s just as exciting as scoring a lot.

    The game isn’t better now (nor was it better back then necessarily). But I think its not a fair characterization to say all teams grinded it out back in the day. The Knicks and…

  286. Interesting discussion. The 3 pointer is worth 50% more than the 2 pointer, but isn’t even close to 50% more aesthetically pleasing and its impact on “efficiency” is far greater than any real athletic accomplishment — so a lot of the things we see in the efficiency data and to a degree aesthetics are, upon serious review, distortions and illusions. The increased “efficiency” is far more a matter of bookkeeping than it is athletics. Moreover, the conscious and way too often successful effort to draw non-basketball move, bullshit fouls, is an aesthetic debit.

    With that said, to use the 1995 date mentioned above, the ball went through the basket from the floor 71 times per game, and this year it’s going through the basket 80.2 times per game. So it goes through the basket from the floor one extra time every 5.2 minutes. Standing alone, that really doesn’t seem like a lot and certainly not enough to outweigh whatever aesthetics go into generating and taking shots, depending on where you come out on those.

    The zenith of the primary aesthetic change since the Illmatic era was perfectly encapsulated in Ben Simmons’s intuitive pass/quasi-kickout from a wide-open layup in last night’s fourth quarter. The idea that you would penetrate past your guy to a good open 2 pointer from like six feet and then kick the ball out to a guy way further away from the basket wasn’t even a basketball thing in the mid-90s. Now, we’re a generation into it being a primary basketball thing and a guy’s first thought even when he’s wide open a foot from the basket is to kick out. I go back and forth on the aesthetics of that, but I’m still not really a huge fan of it. Net-net, I still have the sneaking hunch that it’s just way more of a bookkeeping thing than it is anything really athletic, be it intuitively athletic or otherwise.

  287. Also, not to bring up the “process” again but 5 years of tanking got Philly to be a perpetual 2nd round team who’s best player is injury prone and second best player can’t shoot. Considering they were a playoff team that got to the second round with Iggy and Holiday before they decided to blow it up and tank for 5 years, can we really say the process was a success?

    I know what the defenders will say. They’re a title contender (are they?), they gave up on it too soon (really? 5 years wasn’t enough?) They made the wrong picks (but they picked the consensus top dudes every year).

    Embiid if he stays healthy means they can retool and be a playoff team but honestly, was 5 years of having the worst record in the league really worth it? Oh but they almost won the second round with Butler (who then bolted town immediately).

  288. The Process has become a quasi-religion and it’s impossible to reason with the committed and the faithful.(*) All you have to look at are the fatuous claims that the Process “was a lucky Kawhi bounce from a championship.” Never before in sports history has a GM been given credit for winning games his team didn’t win, over two years after he left.

    (*) The Internet has of course driven all manner of these quasi-religious sects, both within and outside sports, but that’s a bit beyond the present scope.

  289. Most of the talking heads keep referring up to $60 million as the Knicks cap space, but that doesn’t account for Noah and his stretch, picks 19 and 21, plus the cap holds on Rose and Bullock to retain their Early Bird rights.

    With $49 million going to Randle, RJ, Knox, Obi, IQ, Vildoza, and Mitch, $6 million to Noah, $5 million for picks 19 and 21, $15 million to Rose and Reggie, and then 4 incomplete roster spots, it’s more in the neighborhood of $35 million. Surely, Rose could open up more space rather easily, but I just don’t see the higher numbers being realistic at this point.

  290. Counterpoint: the Knicks take midrange shots all the time.
    Is the Knicks offense aesthetically pleasing? I’d say no.

  291. Kevin Huerter is proving Chet Haze right.

    It’s going to be a White Boy Summer.

  292. To go back 10 years from 1995, in the 1985 playoffs the ball went through the basket from the floor 83 times per game as opposed to this year’s 80.2, so whatever is to be said about aesthetics and changed aesthetics has to go way beyond just offense.

  293. If Ben Simmons bought into playing the 5 instead of the 1, he would be a good fit for a lot of teams — but not Philly because Embiid is going to get >30 mpg at the 5. I think that Simmons for McCollum makes the most sense. Nurkic would be a real trade asset, at only $12M for next season and then expiring. Or Portland could keep Nurkic and Simmons and figure out a way to get both of them 30 mpg.

    But, by all accounts, Simmons is committed to being a point guard. I do not think a team can have post-season success with a point guard who will not shoot. At this point, his offensive range is essentially the same as Mitchell Robinson’s. It is even worse than that, because Mitch is always look to score at the rim but Simmons is not.

    If Simmons insists on being a point guard, the only good fit that I see is Minnesota, because Towns is a legitimate 3 point threat. But even that does not work, because Towns wants to play with Russell – not Simmons.

  294. Most of the talking heads keep referring up to $60 million as the Knicks cap space, but that doesn’t account for Noah and his stretch, picks 19 and 21, plus the cap holds on Rose and Bullock to retain their Early Bird rights.

    they will likely be renounced at some point… whether we resign them, they sign somewhere else or we sign someone else… we are very very likely not going to break the cap for those two guys so for all intents and purposes their cap holds are window dressing….

  295. Here’s the thing about complaining about “brickfests.” Every team now passes on open mid range shots in order to take a “more efficient” 3. In that Nets/Bucks game I saw this multiple times where a player would get in the mid range and be relatively open but would kick it out for a more awkward 3 pointer. I like the game overall today still but I’ve watched many games these last few years where its possession after possession of both teams missing 3’s. And I wonder if the midrange being inefficient becomes a self fulfilling prophesy if teams are passing up good mid range shots for 3’s and end up only taking mid range shots when the possession is ending and its a more contested shot.

    This is part of the reason why I still believe you need the midrange game even in today’s NBA game. Maybe not as much in the regular season but absolutely come playoff time when defenses can key in on the paint and perimeter. The biggest evidence I have is Kawhi, particularly Toronto King of the North Kawhi who was practically Jordan from midrange.

    I’m probably in the minority on this, but this I believe this is where and how RJ Barrett can turn himself into an offensive star or superstar. I’m ecstatic that he found his range from 3; I just think with his physical strength it’d be a bit of a waste to ask him to continually gun from 3 when instead he should be using that strength (plus more ballhandling craft) to become nigh-unstoppable in the paint. And pullup Js from 15 ft.

  296. Becky Hammond and Billups getting second interview for Portland job this week.

  297. BTW, a few days ago I basically said that trading Randle for Simmons would be intriguing but risky b/c you’d have to move him to the 4, bring in a premiere 2-way wing, run a 3-guard lineup w/Obi (surround Simmons w/playres who can shoot from 3) and hope Obi/IQ/RJ all take major leaps forward.

    I’d like to modify this statement :)

    That scenario has a few too many ifs for me. I get the skepticism over whether Randle’s future contract will turn him from undervalued to overvalued, along with the fact he played really bad this postseason. But Randle improved his defense and 3pt shooting while playing a decent point-forward. Ben may be an excellent defender and point guard/forward/etc, but you gotta shoot at least a lil bitin today’s NBA.

    There are ways to navigate Randle going forward that can make sense for him and the Knicks.

  298. If Ben Simmons bought into playing the 5 instead of the 1

    What a weird opening to a sentence that makes a lot of sense

  299. The Knicks offense was fine after we got Rose. I don’t see how being an average or poor offensive team that takes mid range shots is somehow indicative that the mid range shot is always bad and I clearly wasn’t making an argument that the midrange is better than the 3, so nice strawman I guess?

    My point is just that teams now religiously take so many 3’s that it can lead to games where if one team is off at 3 they get blown out and if both are missing, its ugly basketball. Variety is the spice of life, so they say and I see this all the time where a player has an open mid range shot that they can take in rhythm but then they kick it out to an “open” 3 but that 3 is taken out of rhythm or is closed out on and they miss that shot when they could have made the midrange that was more open and in rhythm. You can absolutely tell watching a game when a player is more likely to make a shot or not by how in rhythm they are and I think tis gotten a little out of hand with so many 3’s being taken all of the time. And yes, you see it in the playoffs all the time to the point of detriment because the defense is tougher. Every team plays virtually the same way now. I still love the game and honestly the foul baiting and how quickly they call fouls on defenses is a much bigger problem for me than too many 3’s but I honestly think a correction is coming because it always comes in sports.

  300. Has it hit any of you that one of the Clippers, Suns, Hawks or Bucks are gonna win the NBA Title this season?

    I mean, forget for a sec that these teams are good (or have been good for a few years). None of these teams are known for historical championship pedigree. Clippers and Suns have no rings. Hawks have 1 (in ’58). Bucks have 1 (1971).

  301. At this time two years ago, the Suns were 19-63 and coming off a widely-ridiculed draft night. Now they’re three wins away from the Finals. This should forever retire the “win curve” idea — but of course it won’t.

  302. swiftandabundant:
    The Knicks offense was fine after we got Rose. I don’t see how being an average or poor offensive team that takes mid range shots is somehow indicative that the mid range shot is always bad and I clearly wasn’t making an argument that the midrange is better than the 3, so nice strawman I guess?

    My point is just that teams now religiously take so many 3’s that it can lead to games where if one team is off at 3 they get blown out and if both are missing, its ugly basketball. Variety is the spice of life, so they say and I see this all the time where a player has an open mid range shot that they can take in rhythm but then they kick it out to an “open” 3 but that 3 is taken out of rhythm or is closed out on and they miss that shot when they could have made the midrange that was more open and in rhythm. You can absolutely tell watching a game when a player is more likely to make a shot or not by how in rhythm they are and I think tis gotten a little out of hand with so many 3’s being taken all of the time. And yes, you see it in the playoffs all the time to the point of detriment because the defense is tougher. Every team plays virtually the same way now. I still love the game and honestly the foul baiting and how quickly they call fouls on defenses is a much bigger problem for me than too many 3’s but I honestly think a correction is coming because it always comes in sports.

    Yeah, there’s no sense in which the designers of basketball or even the designers of the trifecta intended for three-quarters of the physical space below half court to become Chernobyl — but here we are. There will be a correction, just like baseball is going to correct for its homogenizing bookkeeping excesses.

  303. Also, not to bring up the “process” again but 5 years of tanking got Philly to be a perpetual 2nd round team who’s best player is injury prone and second best player can’t shoot.

    maybe if it’s said for hundredth time instead of 20th it will finally hit home…

    the point of the process is not to GUARANTEE titles or contention… but that it’s such a robust strategy that it can tolerate you missing completely on two out of your top 5 draft picks… waste hundreds of millions worth of cap space and incinerate other countless draft picks that were amassed… and STILL have you contending for titles within 5 years… what other strategy that is remotely repeatable would get you there?

    some teams have performed better because they managed to get top 5-10 players in the middle of the first rd (giannis) or in the 2nd rd (jokic)… that’s great for those teams and they deserve all the credit in the world… but it’s not some sort of repeatable strategy to just identify the next great nba franchise player at whatever random place that you are picking… that requires an immense amount of luck on top of the skill it takes to find and develop those players….

    the process already succeeded…. that you had isaiah thomas esque style of management after hinkie left and they’re still in the upper echelon of the league should clue you in to how successful it was….

  304. At the risk of wading into the process discourse, I think you need to put the starting point in the right place; the Iggy trade wasn’t part of the process, that was pre-Hinkie and they weren’t trying to tank, they were trying to pivot towards longer term competitiveness around Bynum who was a 24 year-old all-star C. Then it turned out his career was basically over, which painted them into a bit of a corner. So they weren’t starting from the 2nd round of the playoffs, they were starting from the 34-48 team that missed the playoffs and didn’t really have a long-term future. The process started with the trade of J’rue after that year. Starting from that point also corrects the number of years they truly tanked for from 5 to 4.

    I also think you need to acknowledge that a huge portion of the process was squandered after it actually ended. In 2017-18 they made the 2nd round with 21 year-old Simmons and 23 year-old Embiid. That roster also had Covington, Saric, JJ, Richuan Holmes, TJ McConnell, TLC, Korkmaz, and rookie Fultz. They still had a bunch of extra picks as well. Clearly the talent level of the roster has degraded dramatically since then with a variety of bad moves that cost them a bunch of draft capital also.

    That said, I do think the last few years for the Sixers have highlighted how hard it is to build a title team. There are no sure things, even if you get a couple of all-stars in the draft. So if four years of huge pain are only putting you in a position that’s still pretty hard to get right, is it really worth it? That’s a fair question.

  305. Yeah, you think we don’t get it and we’re dumb. We’re not. We just disagree with you.

    My point is that they AREN’T title contenders.

    They have yet to get past the second round of the playoffs in the post process era. Yeah, they got to game 7 twice but are they REALLY contenders if they can’t even make the conference finals and get past a mediocre team like The Hawks? One unlucky bounce or not, facts are facts.

    Before the process era when they had Iggy and Holiday they were a perpetual second round exit too.

    So 5 years of processing ended them up where exactly? The same place they were before the process?

    Oh but they got Simmons and Embiid? One who can’t shoot and is about to get traded and the other, injury prone.

    You can make excuses all they want. They made poor picks. They ended it too soon. They shouldn’t have traded for Butler or signed Harris. Fact is they sucked for 5 years and are in the exact same place they were before the process.

  306. E, all merc’d out:
    At this time two years ago, the Suns were 19-63 and coming off a widely-ridiculed draft night. Now they’re three wins away from the Finals.This should forever retire the “win curve” idea — but of course it won’t.

    The Suns are getting tremendous production from a bunch of successful lottery picks. When their core of great young players matured, they added a true max-worthy player in Chris Paul. Add in some decent rotation players at market value, and voila!

    In other words, every move they made fit in with their win curve. This post is ridiculously wrong.

  307. That said, I do think the last few years for the Sixers have highlighted how hard it is to build a title team. There are no sure things, even if you get a couple of all-stars in the draft. So if four years of huge pain are only putting you in a position that’s still pretty hard to get right, is it really worth it? That’s a fair question.

    as opposed to the alternative which is to sacrifice all your future draft picks for the likes of jrue holiday.. paul george.. russell westbrook…. james harden… just so that you could be in the same place as the guys who didn’t have to do any of that…

    what is the alternative strategy that we’re saying is better here?

  308. The 76ers didn’t finish The Process, they were at one point a 50-win team with no shitty contracts on the books and then Bryan Colangelo thought “maybe Tobias Harris is the missing piece we need to win a title” and that was that.

    That contract was an epic mistake.

  309. Also, making excuses for the process by blaming all of their woes on the mistakes they made post process is kind of lame. At some point you have to have a post process period and free agents signings, trades, etc…once its time to go “all in” are always risky and can possibly fail. What competing team doesn’t have a free agent signing of trade they’d like to take back.

    Is it really fair to give a franchise a pass for 5 years where they’re allowed to be the worst possible team, miss on multiple draft picks, etc…and then expect them to be perfect in the post process period with every free agent signing and trade?

  310. JK47: The Suns are getting tremendous production from a bunch of successful lottery picks. When their core of great young players matured, they added a true max-worthy player in Chris Paul. Add in some decent rotation players at market value, and voila!

    In other words, every move they made fit in with their win curve. This post is ridiculously wrong.

    They weren’t even a playoff team when they signed Chris Paul. Everything you’re arguing is purely in retrospect and it’s just data-fitting. There’s nothing falsifiable there in the least.

  311. JK47:
    The 76ers didn’t finish The Process, they were at one point a 50-win team with no shitty contracts on the books and then Bryan Colangelo thought “maybe Tobias Harris is the missing piece we need to win a title” and that was that.

    That contract was an epic mistake.

    As mentioned above, the internet-fueled Process certainly doesn’t lack for acolytes. But it’s impossible to reason someone out of their catechism, and in most cases they aren’t even presenting their ideas for discussion and analysis, but instead as explicit pronouncements of the tenets of their faith. At that point, one kind of hearkens back to something like the Christians running around Rome blabbering on in their bare feet and moves on to other things. I’ll simply repeat that the Truly Committed actually give their patron saint credit for winning a bunch of playoff games his former franchise didn’t even play, long after the time he was even there to win games — and then move on to those other things.

  312. The thing is I’m not even saying it doesn’t work. I’m saying the pain of being absolute dogsh*t for 5 years in order to accumulate picks isn’t worth it. They could have easily built a contender in that time without processing. Look at The Nets. They had no picks at all when the KG/Pierce era ended. But in less time they were able to go from fun up and coming team to playoff team to team with KD/Harden and Irving and they did it without tanking for 5 seasons.

    Sure, suck hard enough for 5 or more years and amass enough draft picks in the lottery and you can probably luck your way into drafting some good players that can make you a playoff team. But then you still have to put the pieces around them and that’s the hard part. So blaming it on Harris or Butler leaving is dumb. All teams have to wade through the PROCESS of overpaying a free agent or making a big trade for another star in order to put the final pieces together and half of the time that doesn’t work. But guess what? Their fans don’t have to sit through 5 season of horrible basketball to do it (unless they’re Knicks fans in which case they sit through decades of incompetency).

  313. Yeah, you think we don’t get it and we’re dumb. We’re not. We just disagree with you.

    the point is that you don’t get it…. it’s called the process because it’s not always about results… that’s intuitive right? i mean i’m sure you’re the type of guy that wins a scratch off and pats yourself on the back on such wonderful choices in life … or maybe you don’t… but that’s exactly how you’re thinking about this and it’s very reductive and overly simplistic for something that’s already universally been deemed a success…. and it’s been a deemed a success despite all the things you’re focusing on and because of all the things you choose to ignore….

    are the nets failures an indictment on the superfriends approach? do you just not trade for levert and allen for james harden just because he pulled a hammy and they missed the conf finals also? that’s pretty much what you’re saying right?

  314. Also, making excuses for the process by blaming all of their woes on the mistakes they made post process is kind of lame. At some point you have to have a post process period and free agents signings, trades, etc…

    the guy overseeing the process was fired and his replacements all cashed in and incinerated everything they had left picks and cap wise on one year of jimmy butler and tobias harris…. none of that was part of the process….

  315. They could have easily built a contender in that time without processing.

    this is also what you’re not getting… just because some team managed to do it doesn’t mean that the sixers or anyone else could’ve replicated that success… the nets did a great job…. but ultimately they became title contenders because durant and kyrie decided to team up in brooklyn…. if they decided to go the knicks… the nets would’ve been stuck with a roster of d’angelo russell… levert.. allen and dinwiddie…

    how does that process start looking? marks is a great gm but there are limits to his powers and he cannot just snap his fingers and conjure up superstars…. the nets just happened to be at the right place and the right time… and made it happen..

    but that easily could’ve been the knicks and we would be talking about the genius of steve mills instead…. you really prepared to say that?

  316. If KD, etc…don’t go to the Nets then they’re a fun up and coming playoff team. IE, not really that much worse off then Philly is now.

    Again YOU’RE not getting it!

    Philly sucked for 5 years and all they’re getting out of it now is a team capped out as a second round playoff exit. IE, not real contenders. You can blame that on what they did post process but every team has to make those post process moves too and there are plenty of teams that are good with contracts they’d like to get rid of. No team makes perfect free agent signings or trades all of the time. So expecting Philly to do that post process is absurd. You’re honestly going to tell me in 5 years time they couldn’t have built a playoff team with a second round ceiling without being the worst team in the league for 5 years to do it?

    Come on bro! The process is dumb as shit. Suck for 5 years so you can not have to worry about sucking at drafting or developing or good coaching and dumb luck your way into 2 good players by sheer magnitude of suckiness but then after that if you fail at making good free agent signings or trades, you can say “well we should have kept processing?”

    Maybe Philly should have processed for 7 years. Have Embiid sit out his first 2 seasons. Would 7 years have done it?

  317. E, all merc’d out: They weren’t even a playoff team when they signed Chris Paul. Everything you’re arguing is purely in retrospect and it’s just data-fitting.There’s nothing falsifiable there in the least.

    Clearly they were on the verge of blowing up. Remember the bubble? They were quite a story during the bubble.

    Adding Paul when they did made perfect win curve sense. This is possibly the dumbest argument I have seen you make here and there is stiff competition for that honor.

  318. Dude, we turned it around in one season and our best player we signed in free agency. We tanked one year for RJ and have some late first round picks because of KP. If we draft Bridges instead of Knox we’re sitting pretty right now even if you erase the KP picks we got from Dallas.

  319. When you’re left resorting to undistilled No True Scotsman and “you aren’t smart enough to understand it,” it’s probably time to abandon ship.

  320. If KD, etc…don’t go to the Nets then they’re a fun up and coming playoff team. IE, not really that much worse off then Philly is now.

    really? a squad led by dlo and dinwiddie levert joe harris and jarrett allen would’ve been the #1 seed in the east? they would’ve made it to the second round in any of these years? let alone 3 out of the last 4?

    if that’s not what you’re saying.. what exactly are you saying is the same?

  321. The Infamous Cdiggy:
    Has it hit any of you that one of the Clippers, Suns, Hawks or Bucks are gonna win the NBA Title this season?

    I mean, forget for a sec that these teams are good (or have been good for a few years). None of these teams are known for historical championship pedigree. Clippers and Suns have no rings. Hawks have 1 (in ’58). Bucks have 1 (1971).

    Once LAL, Boston, and Miami were eliminated in the 1st round it was going to be a big deal whoever wont the championship. Of the 4 teams that were eliminated in the 2nd round the only one that had ever won an NBA title was Philly which was nearly 40 years ago.

  322. I will say that Sam Hinkie’s website (samhinkie.com, of course) delineating his current “side projects” (*) is the closest serious thing you’ll ever find to Cosmo Kramer and Kramerica Industries, so if anyone is interested in being his “Darren,” there’s probably a chance there. Silver lining is that if you’re walking down the streets of Philly and happen to find yourself getting hit by a Swiss ball filled with oil dropped eight floors, you’ll know who to blame.

    (*) E.g. — Best books. Surfacing the very best book (for you) would be a delight machine. Someone should build a real personalized recommendation system. And marketplaces where we could buy summaries, annotations, and takeaways. Or other companion elements for reading alongside people we respect.

    I’ll take the perfume that smells like the beach.

  323. The Infamous Cdiggy: Clippers and Suns have no rings. Hawks have 1 (in ’58). Bucks have 1 (1971).

    Well, now that you told me this, i’m going to root even harder for the Suns. I don’t want a team tying the Knicks for 2 championships. :P

  324. swiftandabundant:
    Dude, we turned it around in one season and our best player we signed in free agency. We tanked one year for RJ and have some late first round picks because of KP. If we draft Bridges instead of Knox we’re sitting pretty right now even if you erase the KP picks we got from Dallas.

    If we did better with our lottery picks, yeah, we’d be in great shape. Which is kind of a good argument for having more lottery picks. It’d be great to nail every one but that’s not the way it always pans out.

    What if, instead of Phil Jackson’s bumblefuckery, we had used that time to acquire some nice long-term assets? Instead of going all-in with a “win now” strategy that predictably blew up in our fucking faces?

    We’d be better off, dontcha think?

  325. This should forever retire the “win curve” idea — but of course it won’t.

    Seriously? This is your example? A three-year rebuild that includes a #1 overall pick followed by trading for a win-now GOAT PG who will not be there in three years? This is the example that blows up the win curve “idea?”

  326. “He also seemed eager to get the ball out of his hands in fourth quarters, for fear of being fouled. At one point late in the Sixers’ loss on Sunday, Ben Simmons passed up an open dunk attempt to get the ball to Matisse Thybulle, who was fouled and subsequently made one of two free throws. Joel Embiid singled out that play in his post-game comments to reporters.”
    With a coach like Doc and teammates like Joel, who needs enemies?

  327. Sam Hinkie, the person, is an insufferable dork. Which is a big part of why people have such antipathy towards The Process. Honestly, I get that. Imagine if that dorkus malorkus was running your favorite team. I probably wouldn’t be super into it to be honest.

    What he did worked pretty well though. He set up his successor nicely, and then his successor fucked it up real bad. Really it was just a proper asset-collecting rebuild, but more aggressive and shameless. The branding of it was terrible, and if Hinkie was a normal person instead of a LARPing weirdo he might have gotten a longer leash.

    I do think it tested the limits of how much blatant tanking a fan base will tolerate. The answer is “not that much blatant tanking.” In the real world you can probably only do it for 2-3 years.

    But look at what we had here with the Knicks— 20 years of mostly execrable, unwatchable basketball with few exciting young players and a constant churn of overpaid “names” stinking up the Garden. Which is worse?

  328. When someone says that something “alone” disproves a proposition, it doesn’t mean the proposition is otherwise solid aside from that something; it means the proposition is so flimsy that it can be blown up by one simple and obvious data point.

    The “three year” Suns rebuild is just another example of backfilling and curve fitting and data mining. (Google them if you don’t know what they mean. Not to mention that it isn’t three years from 19-63 — it’s two.)

  329. The “three year” Suns rebuild is just another example of backfilling and curve fitting and data mining. (Google them if you don’t know what they mean. Not to mention that it isn’t three years from 19-63 — it’s two.)

    how about let’s have you try to explain how any of that applies to the suns….

  330. I know nothing about Sam Hinkie the person. I’ve never heard him speak or read an interview with him. I could care less if he’s a dork or not.

    Again, not saying the strategy doesn’t work just that its not a better strategy than other paths of rebuilding and is probably worse because you have to actively suck for a minimum of 3 or 4 years to really make it work and even then nothing is actually guaranteed. I don’t understand how people can keep saying they’re “set up” or “title contenders” when they have yet to get past the second round! How is that any different than any other mediocre playoff team?

  331. And what about Sam Presti’s process? He has gathered so many draft picks that (maybe) OKC doesn’t even need to tank anymore. :D

  332. E, all merc’d out: The “three year” Suns rebuild is just another example of backfilling and curve fitting and data mining. (Google them if you don’t know what they mean. Not to mention that it isn’t three years from 19-63 — it’s two.)

    You can use as many buzzwords as you want, but it’s pretty fucking basic: the Suns hit paydirt on three lottery picks, THEN pushed in the chips on a max contract player. To say this somehow disproves the “idea” of the win curve is… well, there’s no other way to put it and no nice way to say it. It’s fucking idiotic.

  333. Again, not saying the strategy doesn’t work just that its not a better strategy than other paths of rebuilding and is probably worse because you have to actively suck for a minimum of 3 or 4 years to really make it work and even then nothing is actually guaranteed.

    ok so which other teams are we looking at as examples then that’s better?

  334. Drama starts where logic ends.

    Contrariwise, if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn’t, it ain’t. That’s logic.

    Logic: The art of thinking and reasoning in strict accordance with the limitations and incapacities of the human misunderstanding.

    Logic is in the eye of the logician.

    and finally:

    We live in a Newtonian world of Einsteinian physics ruled by Frankenstein logic.

  335. Remember when E made an argument against paying D-I basketball players by claiming that he would have been fine playing for free had he actually been able to make his college team’s roster? I do. He’s not serious person.

  336. speaking of Presti, Kemba Walker for Ben Simmons makes some sense. OKC is a nice place to rehab your game. Kinda like the Radiator Springs of the NBA (says the guy who spent the whole weekend watching Cars with his 2 year old).

  337. cybersoze:
    And what about Sam Presti’s process? He has gathered so many draft picks that (maybe) OKC doesn’t even need to tank anymore. :D

    Sam Presti sat his 23 year old stud combo guard literally because he was too good at basketball, and they did the same thing to Al Horford who is now back in Boston. Presti is absolutely processing his way to glory in OKC and he’s getting away with it because it’s happening in OKC and the Chris Paul rehabilitation project bought him a lot of good press. I’m only angry about this because I want SGA to be mad about this and demand a trade to the Knicks expeditiously.

  338. One thing not mentioned enough about the tanking strategy is the fact that in the end sports is still entertainment. Tampa in MLB is lauded by how good they are despite embarrassing payrolls and no name players who as soon as they become recognizable stars get immediately traded. But they aren’t a small market, it’s actually the 13th largest market in MLB. The reason they are a small market is because they refuse to invest on players and therefore despite being a very good team their fans basically don’t give a shit about them.

    I want my teams to win as much as anyone but sports for me is still entertainment and a way to get away from real life bullshit for a few hours.

  339. @TheSteinLine
    Damian Lillard. Draymond Green. Bradley Beal. Jayson Tatum. Devin Booker. Kevin Durant. Bam Adebayo. James Harden.

    I think Gregg Popovich has a decent shot at that elusive gold medal with @usabasketball in Tokyo.

    Yeah, that’s a pretty good roster so far. But if I were Nets management, I would really prefer if Durant and Harden just took the summer off.

  340. JK47: You can use as many buzzwords as you want, but it’s pretty fucking basic: the Suns hit paydirt on three lottery picks, THEN pushed in the chips on a max contract player. To say this somehow disproves the “idea” of the win curve is… well, there’s no other way to put it and no nice way to say it. It’s fucking idiotic.

    You’re addressing my point as if I’m talking about the theory of tying your transactions to where you are on the win curve. But I’m saying something different — there’s no such thing as a “win curve” to begin with, as disproven clearly by teams like the Suns. For that matter, the 2020-21 Knicks disprove the idea of the win curve. The only way you get to a “win curve” is by backfilling and curve fitting the data in retrospect, and that’s doable — but it’s no different than traders trying to trade on historical data and patterns.

    The idea of tying your transactions too closely to the win curve typically eliminates the possibility we see in sports all the time of guys, in an unplanned, unpredictable way surprising to the upside — e.g., Julius Randle. It’s stupid and poor planning/management to ignore that unplannable upside.

    The Suns didn’t tie CP3 to the “time they were ready to contend for a championship,” the Suns tied CP3 “to the time it made sense to take a swing at running it with a guy like CP3 and seeing what happened.” The much higher delta they got this year was completely unplanned — and to the degree James Jones actually gave room and berth to that unpredictability, he was very smart. (And to the large degree someone like Hinkie always thought everything could and should be “planned,” favorable surprises to the upside be damned, he was really stupid.)

  341. says the guy who spent the whole weekend watching Cars with his 2 year old

    man, once they get hooked on a movie – that’s it, chances are good – at some point you’ll be able to regurgitate the whole thing line by line…i have watched the adventures of shark boy and lava girl – soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo many times…soooooooo many times…

  342. You don’t understand the concept of “win curve.”

    Hint: it’s a lot simpler than you think.

    I hope we start winning some games soon so you disappear again.

  343. geo: Frankenstein logic

    This would be a hell of a username, here at KB. If i ever create a burner account, i’ll be FrankensteinLogic. LOL
    Oh, and btw, all your post was hilarious, Geo. ;)

  344. JK47: You don’t understand the concept of “win curve.”

    In much the same way that people “don’t understand” The Process.

  345. an rj barrett stan account: I’m only angry about this because I want SGA to be mad about this and demand a trade to the Knicks expeditiously.

    Subscribed. We can give him what he wants (draft picks), maybe there’s a deal to be made. ;)

  346. Alan: Yeah, that’s a pretty good roster so far. But if I were Nets management, I would really prefer if Durant and Harden just took the summer off.

    Maybe they need to go win a gold medal because they’re frustrated. USA Basketball for sure don’t need them, Dame, Tatum and Booker are enough to win against all the competition. Unless a certain french guard disrupts the USA again and send them home early. :D

  347. not mine soze, they’re just quotes…the whole concept of frankenstien logic is pretty darn funny, and accurate :)

    I just find it interesting when folks are so sure of themselves…

    when in reality, 90% of the posts here are simply emotional outbursts, which, in of itself is pretty funny…

    people standing on perceived solid ground with their toes dug in, when the ground itself may not really be all that solid to begin with…

  348. geo: I just find it interesting when folks are so sure of themselves…

    It is indeed, quite amazing. People prefer belonging to pretty much anything, including being right — and the certainty is typically how membership is demonstrated. Ideas are now more a vehicle for shared belonging than anything else. Obviously cults have been with us long before the internet, but there’s little question the internet has exacerbated the phenomenon.

  349. E, all merc’d out: It is indeed, quite amazing. People prefer belonging to pretty much anything, including being right — and the certainty is typically how membership is demonstrated.Ideas are now more a vehicle for shared belonging than anything else.Obviously cults have been with us long before the internet, but there’s little question the internet has exacerbated the phenomenon.

    He’s talking about you, fam

  350. A really good “What is wrong with Ben Simmons?” piece from Yaron Weitzman, who already wrote a whole book about The Process era of the Sixers. One memorable excerpt among many:

    That season, Simmons’ free-throw shooting regressed once again, plunging back down to 60 percent, not quite as bad as his rookie-season marks but still a significant drop-off from his playoff rate. He also took just 25 shots outside of 16 feet after attempting 40 as a rookie. At one point during the year, Jim O’Brien, a long time NBA coach and former Sixers assistant who was serving as a special adviser to Brown, posed a question during a coaches meeting.

    “Name me one area where Ben Simmons has improved,” he asked his colleagues.

    The room fell silent.

  351. JK47: He’s talking about you, fam

    Maybe in affect, but “The Process” and the “win curve” are monuments to misguided certainty.

  352. The Suns didn’t tie CP3 to the “time they were ready to contend for a championship,” the Suns tied CP3 “to the time it made sense to take a swing at running it with a guy like CP3 and seeing what happened.”

    You just spent hours arguing against the concept of the win curve only to state, albeit while avoiding the term, that the Suns…adhered to the concept of the win curve.

    “The time it made sense to take a swing at running it with a guy like CP3 and seeing what happened” was the time in which the Suns’ cost-controlled talent proved to be good enough that adding an elite player could conceivably get them to contention. They didn’t blow assets on CP3, or anyone else, one second before that time in order to chase marginal wins.

    Their pythagorean record in 2019-2020 was 37-36, and that was with Ayton missing a ton of the year. They accumulated young cost-controlled talent, waited until that talent proved to constitute a legitimately decent NBA team, and then supplemented in with trades and free agency. Sound familiar? It’s what all the people you’re saying are proved wrong by the Suns have been saying we should do.

    The Philly stuff is insufferable because this crowd is just going to hand wave away the extremely blatant examples of Philly forcefully departing from all of the ideas that were the basis for The Process as “excuses” or whatever. I mean get a load of some of this nonsense:

    Before the process era when they had Iggy and Holiday they were a perpetual second round exit too.

    Seriously? Andre Iguodala made the second round exactly one time with the Sixers, due to Derrick Rose tearing his damn ACL.

    Despite all of the departures from The Process e.g. letting Jimmy Butler walk in favor of Brett Brown, Philly was the #1 seed in the East this year and had the 5th ranked SRS in the league. They have literally already succeeded at building a contender.

  353. there’s no such thing as a “win curve” to begin with, as disproven clearly by teams like the Suns

    Bro What

    In November they literally traded four mediocre-to-useless players and a pick with diminishing protections for a distressed asset in the form of a HOF point guard who will likely not be in the league when Booker’s contract is up for renewal. This is the definition of operating per the win curve. They are paying Chris Paul $44M or so to win right now. There is no chance that they would have paid him $44M to join the 19-win team from a few years prior. What are you doing?

  354. thenoblefacehumper: You just spent hours arguing against the concept of the win curve only to state, albeit while avoiding the term, that the Suns…adhered to the concept of the win curve.

    That version of the “win curve” has no meaning. The “theory” is either too simple to have any meaning, blatantly obvious, overbroad, or it’s backfilled and curve fitted. That’s kind of the definition of a fatally flawed theory.

    If the Knicks had signed Chris Paul, in violation of all “win curve” tenets, they easily could have made the final four and likely would have. Everyone here (save me, who doesn’t really care about the win curve for the noted reasons; and Hubert, who proposed the idea in the first place; and maybe one or two stray others) would have been against the signing on “win curve” principles. (Check the archives.) If the theory can’t be used to predict anything real, it’s pointless. And if the theory is so broad that it would have ex post ratified a Knicks CP3 signing, it’s too broad to mean anything.

    The Honorable Cock Jowles: would have paid him $44M to join the 19-win team from a few years prior. What are you doing?

    It wasn’t the 19-win of “a few years prior”; it was the 19 win team of literally one year prior and the 19-win team who had a universally panned 2019 draft night. It’s one thing to back fit the data; it’s an even worse thing to fudge the backfit data. Another hint would be that if you have to fudge the lingo and the data, it’s time to rethink the theory.

    The primary reason the Suns are where they are is because the natural upside uncertainty and possibility broke their way, big time. This kind of upside result for them was unplanned and unpredictable. Any planning or philosophy that doesn’t allow for that possible upside uncertainty is worthless.

  355. From the Weitzman piece:

    According to league sources, Simmons’ frustration at being relegated to off-ball duty during the team’s 2019 second-round loss to the Raptors contributed to the front office’s decision to not re-sign Jimmy Butler. Brown had handed Butler the keys to the offense, and management was worried how Simmons would handle having Butler around and monopolizing crunch-time playmaking duties for multiple years.

    Yeah. This is the kind of decision-making that was happening post-process.

    But hey, keep trolling away.

  356. I mean it’s literally almost impossible to think of a team that played the win curve so perfectly. I’m trying to think of another better example and I’m drawing a blank.

    It’s like saying “The Godfather is a good example of why there’s no such thing as a good mob movie”

  357. You just spent hours arguing against the concept of the win curve only to state, albeit while avoiding the term, that the Suns…adhered to the concept of the win curve.

    Curve fitted doe
    Back fitted
    And don’t forget data fitted

    I HaZ alL Da BuzZwoRdZ

  358. Hmm.

    That’s one way to look at it.

    Another way. The franchise spent 5 years processing and felt obligated to side with the young player they acquired from processing over the older, better player that they got through the non-processed method of a trade.

    And you’re saying that proves processing is good? You’re telling me if you were GM of the 76’ers and spent 5 years processing to acquire Ben Simmons that you would then be super willing to give up on him in favor of Butler, who didn’t cost you 5 years of shitty basketball to get?

  359. JK47:
    I mean it’s literally almost impossible to think of a team that played the win curve so perfectly. I’m trying to think of another better example and I’m drawing a blank.

    It’s like saying “The Godfather is a good example of why there’s no such thing as a good mob movie”

    The other and better way to interpret it is that it’s almost impossible to think of a team that played the win curve so perfectly because there’s no such thing as playing the win curve.

    I honestly have no idea what this idea is even arguing. The Suns vastly outperformed even the most optimistic reasonable projections. They didn’t really even “play” anything, other than sensibly taking a shot and then getting really lucky. It’s like saying it’s “literally impossible to think of a guy who played the blackjack table better than the guy who drew 7 on 14.”

  360. They didn’t really even “play” anything, other than sensibly taking a shot and then getting really lucky.

    “Sensibly taking a shot” IS the goddamn win curve. Nobody’s saying it’s an exact fucking science, it’s more of a general principle you should follow. Following this principle would have you avoid doing things like giving Joakim Noah a 4/72 deal when your team is the dregs of the league, and signing Carmelo Anthony to a megamax when your team is the dregs of the league. Understanding this very basic principle would allow you to avoid signing pointless free agents like Derrick Williams and Arron Afflalo and instead using that cap space to try to acquire some assets.

    Nothing personal, but from now I’m ignoring you. You’re too tedious to deal with.

  361. And you’re saying that proves processing is good? You’re telling me if you were GM of the 76’ers and spent 5 years processing to acquire Ben Simmons that you would then be super willing to give up on him in favor of Butler, who didn’t cost you 5 years of shitty basketball to get?

    Yeah. A process that allows you to roster Joel Embiid, Jimmy Butler, Ben Simmons, Tobias Harris, and still have assets to spend is good.

    Letting Jimmy Butler, a perennial fringe MVP candidate, walk for virtually nothing, is bad.

    Hope this helps. All very complicated stuff, I know.

  362. Alan: A really good “What is wrong with Ben Simmons?” piece from Yaron Weitzman

    The problems with Simmons go way deeper than i thought. He isn’t coming here, but after reading this piece i don’t think i’d want it either.

  363. When is Philly going to hang their 2020-2021 5th Ranked SRS rating banner cause that pre game ceremony is going to be LIT.

    are you saying rob pelinka had the best strategy in the association based entirely on the fact they won a championship? is this the only standard to judge this off of?

    i think we’re all trying not to misinterpret you so you should elaborate on what standard you are using that’s supposedly better…. you haven’t mentioned it at all yet you’re assuming everyone knows what you’re talking about…

  364. JK47: “Sensibly taking a shot” IS the goddamn win curve.

    Only if recklessly taking a shot and winding up in pretty much the same place, as would have happened with the Knicks and CP3, ISN’T the win curve.

    A process that allows you to roster Joel Embiid, Jimmy Butler, Ben Simmons, Tobias Harris, and still have assets to spend is good.

    They got Butler and Harris way after Hinkie left, at fire sale prices he had nothing to do with. Sam. Hinkie. Did. Not. Have. A. Single. Thing. To. Do. With. The. Sixers. Acquiring. Jimmy. Butler. The two crown jewels of the “Process” can’t play together. The Process is a cult. Its present adherents are cultists. The cult would not exist without the internet to enable it. Maybe one of Hinkie’s “side projects” should be “deprogramming.”

  365. Yeah. A process that allows you to roster Joel Embiid, Jimmy Butler, Ben Simmons, Tobias Harris, and still have assets to spend is good.

    don’t forget the #1 pick of the draft also…..

  366. Only if recklessly taking a shot and winding up in pretty much the same place, as would have happened with the Knicks and CP3, ISN’T the win curve.

    You’ve spent months arguing this season was fool’s gold and Randle might not even be good and our record was really only good because Thibs is a bad coach and blah blah blah. Now adding CP3 would’ve put us in the finals. Which one is it?

    Sam. Hinkie. Did. Not. Have. A. Single. Thing. To. Do. With. The. Sixers. Acquiring. Jimmy. Butler.

    Who’d they trade for Jimmy Butler?

  367. I’m using the standard where people on this board say Philly is a contender bc they processed when they haven’t gotten out of the second round and the two best players they got from 5 years of processing is one who’s injury prone and another one who can’t shoot.

    And yeah, noble, we get it, if you were GM you would never ever have to deal with player’s egos and the reality of personalities getting in the way of your cold, ruthless GM skills. Yeah right.

    They septn 5 years processing. The pressure to keep their processing dudes was so high they fucked up and let Butler walk for nothing when it was Butler or Simmons.

    5 year of processing to be a mediocre team. There is literally no other way to build a contender except we literally have tons of examples of teams that do it other ways without making their fans suffer through 5 years of horrible basketball ON PURPOSE.

    And again, whatever mistakes they made post process is irrelevant because those are mistakes other teams could make too. The process got them exactly 2 good players. Nice little foundation to build a contedner but not a finished product at all.

    The point of processing was to build a championship caliber team and Philly has failed to do that. Ergo, the process was a failure.

  368. Only if recklessly taking a shot and winding up in pretty much the same place, as would have happened with the Knicks and CP3, ISN’T the win curve.

    They were at different places in the win curve, brainiac.

    You really don’t get it. Okay, ignoring you for real

  369. And again, I;’m not saying it won’t work if the goal is to suck for a super long time and luck into drafting some good players. But any idiot can do that and its not enough to win a title. And you don’t even have to process to do it. Lakers didn’t process to get Lebron or AD. Neither did the Clippers. HEAT didn’t process to get Butler. Knicks didn’t process to get Randle.

    And how many shitty teams process by default sucking every year like the Twolves and Kings but still suck year after year after year.

    Its fools gold. Yeah for Philly. Can’t get out of the second round and they’re about to blow up half of their process stars. Success?

  370. If we traded for Simmons and allowed Frank to teach him how to shoot (48% from three) we might actually have something.

  371. JK47: They were at different places in the win curve, brainiac.

    You really don’t get it. Okay, ignoring you for real

    Then the “win curve” doesn’t have a thing to do with anything, which was my original starting point so .. hmmm … I guess I kind of do “understand” it??

  372. The Suns had an EWL of 37-36 last year. They ditched Rubio and Oubre (who stunk on their teams this year) for an injury-prone star PG on the decline, and had Ayton for twice the number of games this year. They did not have any injury problems for, like, the whole year. Someone explain to me what E is talking about because I still don’t get it. I know he’s the smartest guy here, but I’ve apparently lost the thread because he keeps saying that the Suns prove that the win curve doesn’t exist but it sure looks like they made a call to snag their win-now piece (jettisoned by OKC for being completely useless to them during a rebuild) for two seasons while Ayton and Bridges were still on their rookie contracts and their volume scorer was starting his prime years. They bet on a team with an EWL over .500 and got some huge improvement out of their core. Is this not win curve? Apparently I’m too dumb for this.

    Meanwhile over in Clipperland, one of the Morris twins is making an astounding $64M over four, which will double his career earnings when the contract ends during his age-35 season, yet that contract would make no sense at all on the Thunder, Pistons or Rockets right now. Win curve? Nah. Something else.

  373. Then the “win curve” doesn’t have a thing to do with anything, which was my original starting point so .. hmmm … I guess I kind of do “understand” it??

    Actually, this post demonstrates definitively that you DON’T understand it. At all.

  374. The Honorable Cock Jowles: They bet on a team with an EWL over .500 and got some huge improvement out of their core. Is this not win curve? Apparently I’m too dumb for this.

    I don’t think it is, others think it is. To summarize, you can’t see the “curve” until after you get the data points and then it looks somehow foreordained but it really isn’t. But I agree that things are becoming tedious and semantic at this point. The GM-ing point is more to allow yourself the (intelligently, of course) possibility for a massive surprise to the upside because they happen all the time. Suns, Knicks, 2021. If that’s somehow the “win curve” in action, so be it.

  375. And you don’t even have to process to do it. Lakers didn’t process to get Lebron or AD. Neither did the Clippers. HEAT didn’t process to get Butler. Knicks didn’t process to get Randle.

    so how do you get to be on the lucky side of a star player wanting to sign with you as a free agent or demand a trade to your team? if we’re counting score that happened to exactly….. three teams? lakers… clippers and nets… how do you get into this club?

    are you also saying the knicks are in better shape? and that miami is in better shape? both teams winning a grand total of 1 game in the first rd this year?

    how are any of these better processes?

  376. I really enjoy hearing about how The Process failed for Philly despite them losing a 7-game series against a team with multiple players putting up playoffs-long career-best performances, where Philly absolutely crushed them in eFG% (and led three of the four factors in sum) but lost the series nearly exclusively at the FT line. Simmons has the yips and apparently that means Hinkie was wrong about how to build a championship contender. What the fuck are these people on about?

    You might get more a reaction out of me if they had lost each of four total games by 20, but a tight series that was decided by a mental implosion does nothing — absolutely nothing — to refute a bygone asset strategy that, despite the best efforts of Colangelo and Brand, has produced multiple winning playoff teams that lost heartbreakers in the final moments of Game 7s. The same Raptors that eked by the Sixers on a miracle shot went on to crush the Warriors that year. This year, the Sixers got ousted by a team that looks like even money against Giannis and co. To my mind, the internet today is so fucking thirsty for a narrative.

  377. If that’s somehow the “win curve” in action, so be it.

    but datamining and datafitting… curvefitting… and backfills…. what happened to that? we were all about to get schooled on these advanced concepts….

    or were these datacurves and backfits?

  378. Addicted To The Knicks:
    Most of the talking heads keep referring up to $60 million as the Knicks cap space, but that doesn’t account for Noah and his stretch, picks 19 and 21, plus the cap holds on Rose and Bullock to retain their Early Bird rights.

    With $49 million going to Randle, RJ, Knox, Obi, IQ, Vildoza, and Mitch, $6 million to Noah, $5 million for picks 19 and 21, $15 million to Rose and Reggie, and then 4 incomplete roster spots, it’s more in the neighborhood of $35 million. Surely, Rose could open up more space rather easily, but I just don’t see the higher numbers being realistic at this point.

    There are 8 players signed and 4 picks. That leaves 3 opens spots. Rose and Reggie aren’t included. According to Spotrac the Knicks have $51.3M effective cap space. Also, we have our Non-Taxpayer Mid-Level Exception for $9.5M and the bi-annual exception for $3.7M.

  379. The league has tried to discourage The Process by flattening the lottery odds, and it has sorta worked. Presti has figured out another approach that doesn’t seem to upset everybody so badly. We’ll see how the Thunder look in a few years, I would bet they’ll probably be in pretty good shape.

    If we’re saying win curve doesn’t exist, let’s take it to the logical extreme: would it help the Timberwolves if they signed Chris Paul? Would it make sense for them? Or would it make MORE sense for the Timberwolves to acquire young players, draft assets and the like? It seems pretty goddamn obvious to me, but I dunno, dAtA FitTinG or something something

  380. DudeInKnicksTown: If we traded for Simmons and allowed Frank to teach him how to shoot (48% from three) we might actually have something.

    This is you playing the Frank card to get the thread away from The Process? LOL

  381. djphan: how are any of these better processes?

    There is no “process” to be applied to any of this because none of it can be planned. That’s the fundamental reasoning flaw with both this and the win curve. The best process, far better than Hinkie’s is ” make smart trades, draft well, always draft BPA, put a good player development program in place, try not to get caught in the shitty Orlando middle, hire a good coach, be patient, prefer genuine superstars over multiple good players, plan the salary cap well. Add three more ‘get luckies’.”

    That’s really as much as the thing can be planned. People like Hinkie aren’t comfortable with things like luck and uncertainty, but you have to be and that’s why they fail. Things like “The Process” and the “win curve” are efforts to bring sense and planning to areas in which luck, chaos, randomness, and uncertainty necessarily prevail.

  382. >cybersoze: This is you playing the Frank card to get the thread away from The Process? LOL

    Well, somebody should.

  383. Again, this MF says the win curve doesn’t exist, then gives several examples of how you should do things that fit in with your win curve, and avoid doing things that don’t fit in with your win curve.

    I can’t

    Somebody please ban me or something

  384. That’s really as much as the thing can be planned. People like Hinkie aren’t comfortable with things like luck and uncertainty, but you have to be and that’s why they fail.

    well the one thing hinkie didn’t account for was curvebacks which is a little known concept just discovered during the turn of the decade… it involves the liberal use of crossfits which fit underneath all these datacurves like an arched back… through this you maximize your expected value in any given year…

    which is the crux of this whole debacle! generating excess expected value… because why the hell are you trying to win 30 games when you can just crossfit your way to 18! then you draft all the superstars that can’t shoot free throws or have functioning limbs and then manage to curveback your way into the #1 seed in the league even despite all this!

    that was hinkie’s magic that nobody gets…. not these silly datamines and backfills….

  385. They septn 5 years processing. The pressure to keep their processing dudes was so high they fucked up and let Butler walk for nothing when it was Butler or Simmons.

    You keep saying five, but it was four years. Hinkie took over after the 2012-13 season and they won 52 games in 2017-18, so it was 2013-14, 2014-15, 2015-16 and 2016-17. Four years. Or, in other terms, Hinkie took over after the 2012-13 season (where the Sixers won 34 games) and the Sixers were at 52 wins in 2017-18. The Knicks made the playoffs in 2012-13 and then didn’t make the playoffs again until 2020-21, so seven seasons. Four losing seasons doesn’t seem like too big of a deal in comparison, no?

  386. GoNYGoNYGo – Gearing up for the playoffs: There are 8 players signed and 4 picks.That leaves 3 opens spots.Rose and Reggie aren’t included.According to Spotrac the Knicks have $51.3M effective cap space. Also, we have our Non-Taxpayer Mid-Level Exception for $9.5M and the bi-annual exception for $3.7M.

    On my planning i’m not counting Pelle, so it’s only 7 players to keep, and 3 rookies at best, probably only 2. If it’s 2 rookies, we’ll have 9 players to keep come free-agency, and in need of 6 players to fill the roster.
    We don’t have access to the Non-Taxpayer MLE, because we’re under the cap, we only have access to the Room Exception (it’s 2 years, around 5M AAV).

  387. 5 year of processing to be a mediocre team.

    Uh oh, Z-Man is not going to be happy.

  388. I think with this season’s team, it’s a bit too harsh to label the Sixers a perennial 2nd found flameout even though statistically they have been.
    I thought they were a legit potential NBA Finals candidate this season. Not the favorite but better than a puncher’s chance.

  389. Congrats to Becky Hammon for making it to the final rounds of the job Chauncey Billups was rumored to be getting weeks ago (he is the other finalist, so…yeah).

  390. Brian Cronin: Hinkie took over after the 2012-13 season (where the Sixers won 34 games) and the Sixers were at 52 wins in 2017-18.

    2017-18 was over two years after he left. In non-dog years, the Sixers were a 10-win team when Hinkie left. He bequeathed his predecessors Joel Embiid and the most ping pong balls in the 2016 lottery, which they happened to luckily hit. That’s it. That was “the Process” — Joel Embiid and some ping pong balls in one lottery.

    But even giving him the benefit of every last doubt that no GM has ever been remotely given in GMing history, they improved from 34 to 52 wins in five years under his watch. I’m afraid the immortal words of Derrick Coleman can’t be improved upon — “Whoop dee damn doo.”

    It’s a cult.

  391. There are 8 players signed and 4 picks. That leaves 3 opens spots. Rose and Reggie aren’t included. According to Spotrac the Knicks have $51.3M effective cap space. Also, we have our Non-Taxpayer Mid-Level Exception for $9.5M and the bi-annual exception for $3.7M.

    The mid-level exception stuff is confusing, since it would only apply if the Knicks resigned all of their current free agents to go over the cap. So yes, theoretically it would then be available, but clearly, the Knicks aren’t going to be doing that, so it will not actually be available. Similarly, the bi-annual exception and the room exception only become available if the Knicks are close enough to the cap to need them. If the Knicks have $6 million in cap room, they don’t get to use the bi-annual exception, since they have more than the bi-annual exception available in cap space.

    In other words, all of these exceptions only apply to teams that are over or right up against the cap, which we won’t know about the Knicks until they start spending.

  392. Brian Cronin: The mid-level exception stuff is confusing, since it would only apply if the Knicks resigned all of their current free agents to go over the cap. So yes, theoretically it would then be available, but clearly, the Knicks aren’t going to be doing that, so it will not actually be available.

    Brian, i think we can’t have it because our free agents are non-bird (Noel and Burks), which only allow 120% of the previous salary, and Early Bird (Reggie and DRose), which only allow 175% of previous salary. Doing the math that doesn’t put us over the cap, and not near i should say (still with 17M in cap, after doing that).

    [edit] Unless we break the bank to keep the French Prince! :D

  393. Brian, i think we can’t have it because our free agents are non-bird (Noel and Burks), which only allow 120% of the previous salary, and Early Bird (Reggie and DRose), which only allow 175% of previous salary. Doing the math that doesn’t put us over the cap, and not near i should say (still with 17M in cap, after doing that).

    What if they gave Mitch an extension before the draft and also resigned Elfrid?

    Don’t get me wrong, I agree, they’re not going to do it, so it’s a moot point.

  394. Brian Cronin: What if they gave Mitch an extension before the draft and also resigned Elfrid?
    Don’t get me wrong, I agree, they’re not going to do it, so it’s a moot point.

    Yeah, you’re right, didn’t remember the extensions (Mitch or Julius) would “help” fill the cap.
    No way they re-sign Elfrid, right? LOL

  395. The Knicks could operate as an “above the cap” team if they were to extend the Qualifying Offer to Frank, because his cap hold would then be 25% of the salary cap. Because the Knicks would not want to be saddled with Frank if he accepted the Qualifying Offer (too much money & gives him a no-trade clause for the year), they are highly unlikely to extend the QO to him.

  396. The people who dislike Hinkie are a lot more vocal than the people who “like” him. I don’t think it takes a tremendous amount of genius to realize that collecting assets and avoiding marginal wins at the bottom of the win curve is a good idea, it seems skullfuckingly obvious to me but hey I’m just a guy who plays synthesizers for a living.

    I wouldn’t really want him running my team, and I think The Process was a little bit extreme, but it’s a legitimate way to build something. He damn sure wouldn’t have burned all his assets for one season of Jimmy Butler and he also damn sure wouldn’t have given Tobias Harris that insane contract. He probably would have been more patient, and the Sixers would have probably been set up for better long-term success. But that’s a hypothetical scenario and we don’t live on that timeline, so I guess we’ll never know.

    You don’t have to be a Sam Hinkie cultist to see that the moves his successors made weren’t really so hot. Mature individuals should really be able to recognize that some of Colangelo’s moves were counterproductive but some people have a narrative hill that they’re willing to die on so here we are.

  397. Our offseason can go in many different directions,
    on the free agent market my personal “please don’t” is Schroeder and my “there’s some photo evidence of a crime somewhere” is resigning Payton.

    Meanwhile I’m a bit confused that Game-2 of the WCF will be played before Game-1 of the ECF.

    Lopez’s block on Durant in OT was the underrated play of the weekend, Gallo’s steal and dunk that ripped the heart out of the Sixers was very good too.

    The Bucks are better equipped to counter the Hawks than the Simmons-Thybulle version of the 76ers, but they had an awful offensive series against Brooklyn. They can count on Giannis for 30 a night but they’ll go as far as Middleton and Holiday bring them.

    I like the way Monty exploited the missmatches in the first half, finding Ayton deep and against smaller defenders, forcing the Clips to play a lot of Zubac/DMC (31 minutes vs. 6 in Gm7 with Utah), a thing that Snyder was unable to do and allowed Rivers to play 5-out most of the time.

    Edit
    P.S. Process, win curve, Frank, Hinkie, mediocre and congrats IQ, just to stay on topics…

  398. You know, the Suns don’t have Paul at the moment and they are still winning playoff games. Maybe just accumulating talent and hiring a good coach gets you results even without Chris Paul.

  399. I’m late but last week Zach Lowe’s podcast with Jeff Van Gundy was great,
    I like the definition “Shooting Turnover” for bad shots… :-)

  400. You know, the Suns don’t have Paul at the moment and they are still winning playoff games. Maybe just accumulating talent and hiring a good coach gets you results even without Chris Paul.

    Right, they were at the point of the win curve where their wins were going to be going up ANYways, so adding a star veteran made sense, to help optimize their chances.

  401. By the way, I’d gladly start a new thread, but there is such a dearth of real Knicks news stories.

  402. Jowles that’s a whole lot of excuses to justify a team that still can’t get past the second round. First round exit last year, etc. you’re doing the “if only this did or didn’t happen excuse.” That’s fine one year but come on dude. This is year four of them flaming out. They’re not contenders and the processing got them the dude who can’t shoot, remember?

    Again, it works but it’s not worth the pain is all I’m saying. That’s a lot seasons of being the worst of the worst just to get to be a mediocre playoff team.

  403. Ben Simmons took 0 (zero) 4th quarter shots in the last 4 games of the series combined.
    At first I thought that was a joke.

    He’s due 140M over the next four years.

    He’s a very good defender, a good rebounder, a very good passer, but Daryl needs to send me a lot of other nice things to convince me that I must trade for him.

  404. swiftandabundant: They’re not contenders

    God I didn’t want to get involved, especially since I’m on break ,but what the hell. This is like the argument over ‘mediocre.’ A contender is someone who contends. A team picked to be in the top 4, who some experts said was likely to win it all, and who finishes with the best record in the East, and who gets to game 7 of the second round, is by definition a contender. They are contending, and at a very high level. Did they flame out? You bet, most contenders do. You seem to have the take that only the team that wins it all is a contender, which is post hoc and plays RIGHT into E’s explanation that things can only be known after they have happened, and discussing how and when you might increase your odds is all foolishness.

  405. The Knicks could operate as an “above the cap” team if they were to extend the Qualifying Offer to Frank, because his cap hold would then be 25% of the salary cap.

    no it would he 300pct of his 20-21 or $18m

  406. Brian Cronin:
    By the way, I’d gladly start a new thread, but there is such a dearth of real Knicks news stories.

    Regardless, maybe you could make a catch-all playoffs megathread any way? This is a lot to scroll through by now.

  407. JK47
    June 21, 2021 at 4:56 pm
    (stuff)…

    You really don’t get it. Okay, ignoring you for real

    JK47
    June 21, 2021 at 5:10 pm
    (more stuff)…

    Actually, this post demonstrates definitively that you DON’T understand it. At all.

    ha, too funny jk, you have about as much impulse control in regards to stepping away from a disagreement as i do of not succumbing to one of those cheery cherry syrupy filled chocolatey goodies, that sees so evilly creates, staring me in my face…

    just ain’t happening, til they’re gone…

  408. for the record, i ain’t stepping on e’s toes – who knows when i might need some lawerly advice some day :)

    i will say this, if i was an owner and my front office came to me with some “process” of sucking solidly for three or so years in order to re-build the franchise, they’d be looking for other work shortly thereafter…

  409. Brian Cronin:
    By the way, I’d gladly start a new thread, but there is such a dearth of real Knicks news stories.

    There must be mock drafts and such or evaluations of players attending the NBA combine this week. Those might be worth discussing

  410. Doug Chu
    June 21, 2021 at 7:24 pm
    Brian Cronin:
    By the way, I’d gladly start a new thread, but there is such a dearth of real Knicks news stories.

    Regardless, maybe you could make a catch-all playoffs megathread any way? This is a lot to scroll through by now.

    ditto, since when do we ever need a legitimate reason to argue with one another and pontificate for purely onanistic purposes…

  411. here ya go bc:

    Magic Johnson on Knicks: ‘Superstars are gonna want to play here now’

    i wonder which superstars he might mean???

  412. geo:
    cheery cherry syrupy filled chocolatey goodies, that sees so evilly creates, staring me in my face…

    just ain’t happening, til they’re gone…

    hey geo…you got some see’s for fathers day also I see…I got those block like chocolate pops that you can suck on forever…a chunk of hardened high fructose corn syrup with perhaps some cocoa in there somewhere…damn good…

    maybe by the time I am done with one of them I will unscramble E’s theory of chaos and how you can’t make any personnel moves until your algorithm that tells you what move to make is shown to be 100% accurate..

  413. actually the one which i’ve been thinking of the most lately:

    which, if any, of our guys do we wanna see playing olympic ball?

    i’m hoping julius stays home this summer and rests and trains more…

    rj’s young, he should play…

  414. I think he meant Magic Johnson wants to play here now.

    And Geo, as has been pointed out here earlier, the Knicks sucked for 19 out of the last 20 years. Is that more or less maddening than having someone say we’re going to suck for 4 and then we’ll be at least better than mediocre?

    E says there are no plans. Hinkey had a plan and it kinda worked, sorta. The Knicks also had a plan, but like the proverbial crazy person, they kept doing the plan over and over again even though they got the same results (less then mediocre).

  415. talk about particles in entanglement – that’s us pepper :)

    maybe by the time I am done with one of them I will unscramble E’s theory of chaos and how you can’t make any personnel moves until your algorithm that tells you what move to make is shown to be 100% accurate..

    e, ain’t a numbers guy, he’s a semantics and logic follower…

  416. Is that more or less maddening than having someone say we’re going to suck for 4 and then we’ll be at least better than mediocre?

    that is correct raven – you can not say/admit or even hint at sucking being an okay situation within the entertainment industry – big no no…

    it hurts our feelings…better for people to be simply angry, not saddened…

    the knicks were simply historically inept, like statistically hysterically bad…

  417. the moment when you’re really high, look at the page and realize you’ve done waaaaay too much posting…

  418. It might be super dumb to throw my hat into the ring after so many words have been spilled on the Process, but I was talking about this in a discord last night so I’ll do it anyway.

    Has it been mentioned that Hinkie was forced out before he got to make any moves to turn his asset hoard into a contender? He quit before the 2016 draft, where the Sixers drafted Simmons. None of us have any idea whether the authentic Process would’ve worked to win a championship. Hinkie didn’t get a chance to move onto Phase 2.

    It’s actually a credit to how effective Hinkie’s asset accumulation phase was that the Sixers under Colangelo and Brand still built a team that came within a single bounce of making the Finals in 2019, and was a #1 seed in the East this year.

    What other team survives the following moves without needing to blow it up and start over:

    – trading up in the draft for Markelle Fultz
    – trading for Max Player, Tobias Harris
    – trading away Jimmy Butler
    – signing Al Horford to play alongside Embiid and Simmons

    Only the Sixers withstand all these L’s! It’s a credit to Hinkie that these failures didn’t leave them dead in water. One great advantage of the Process is that with so many assets, you don’t need as many things to break your way. Not every draft pick has to hit. You can withstand coming out on the losing side of a trade. You can even fuck up as many times as Colangelo and Brand and still build one of the best teams in the East.

  419. geo:
    the moment when you’re really high, look at the page and realize you’ve done waaaaay too much posting…

    posting and toasting!

    kind of like wake and bake…

  420. Has it been mentioned that Hinkie was forced out before he got to make any moves to turn his asset hoard into a contender? He quit before the 2016 draft, where the Sixers drafted Simmons. None of us have any idea whether the authentic Process would’ve worked to win a championship. Hinkie didn’t get a chance to move onto Phase 2.

    It has been mentioned. And ignored.

    Some people can’t get past the “IT’S WRONG TO LOSE ON PURPOSE” part of it, and really, really, REALLY want to say that The Process failed. Some people– not just here, but in sports fandom in general– were very invested in seeing it fail. And I get that. I really do.

    Some folks, the whole topic just pushes their buttons and they’re not going to move into a more nuanced place with it. It failed, they were “right,” the narrative they wanted panned out (in a way) and they’re not open to viewpoints that don’t fit that narrative.

  421. JK47: Some folks, the whole topic just pushes their buttons and they’re not going to move into a more nuanced place with it. It failed, they were “right,” the narrative they wanted panned out (in a way) and they’re not open to viewpoints that don’t fit that narrative.

    Imagine living like that! Couldn’t be me!

    Like, I think Hinkie’s smug tech bro “look at me, I’m DISRUPTING your paradigms” attitude was annoying. It doesn’t mean he wasn’t right. It doesn’t mean that he got to start what he finished. Or that he’s responsible for how Colangelo and Brand have continued his work.

  422. if we need a new thread… rj just started training with team canada for olympic qualifiers…

    or we could be blessed with one of brian’s offseason cap analysis threads which we’re in desperate need of….

  423. ptmilo:
    The Knicks could operate as an “above the cap” team if they were to extend the Qualifying Offer to Frank, because his cap hold would then be 25% of the salary cap.

    no it would he 300pct of his 20-21 or $18m

    I stand corrected. You are right.

  424. The history of capitalism is the history of paradigm disruption, so that isn’t even mildly annoying. What is mildly annoying — more pathetic and laughable, really — is the conceit of his cult that the world somehow wasn’t patient or disciplined enough to see his brilliant analytical ideas through and that somehow this fallen world wasn’t good enough for him. His “normal” basketball moves were meh at best. Dude was a blowhard and not much more than that, end of story.

  425. I think we need one of Brian’s vote threads. Like which is better, to be mediocre, or a contender?

  426. E, all merc’d out:
    The history of capitalism is the history of paradigm disruption, so that isn’t even mildly annoying.What is mildly annoying — more pathetic and laughable, really — is the conceit of his cult that the world somehow wasn’t patient or disciplined enough to see his brilliant analytical ideas through and that somehow this fallen world wasn’t good enough for him.His “normal” basketball moves were meh at best.Dude was a blowhard and not much more than that, end of story.

    He’s a blowhard, but he was right. He figured out how to exploit the system and he did a great job of it. Curious as to why you react so strongly to it and go so far as to cast it in… theological terms?

  427. Thanks for the clarifications in the thread about the exceptions. Very confusing stuff!

    I tried to edit my last post (just to change a period to a question mark) and it marked my edit as spam.
    I can no longer post anything with links.
    Half the time my posts are simply refused.

    Is there something wrong with my permissions? Is this happening to anyone else????

  428. BTW, we could just do a “thread-of-the-day” and pick any random Twitter post suggesting that the Knicks trade/sign for that player. There’s a new player every day! Today it’s Simmons.

    BTW, no thank you re: Simmons.

  429. Doug Chu: He’s a blowhard, but he was right. He figured out how to exploit the system and he did a great job of it. Curious as to why you react so strongly to it and go so far as to cast it in… theological terms?

    He didn’t “exploit” anything and he didn’t do a “great job” at anything. But for the cult, I’d give fewer than zero fucks about the whole thing. I find the cult around him culturally interesting, if not fascinating — but in a culture, not basketball, sense.

  430. it’s not what you think jk, it’s much more nuanced…it’s like two blind folks at the front and back of an elephant trying to describe the animal…

    it’s analytics and data versus definitions and “proof”…there’s no way those things will coincide if two folks on opposite ends of the elephant wanna enjoy some vigorous digital discourse…

    you can be wrong and still win an argument, it’s easy – if arguing is what you are trying to win at…

  431. Thanks for the clarifications in the thread about the exceptions. Very confusing stuff!

    The best way to think about it is to keep in mind the word “exception.” Basically, the “rule” is that you are supposed to just use your open cap room to sign people. When you have no cap room, though, that is when you need an exception to the rule.

  432. I tried to edit my last post (just to change a period to a question mark) and it marked my edit as spam.
    I can no longer post anything with links.
    Half the time my posts are simply refused.

    Is there something wrong with my permissions? Is this happening to anyone else????

    Sorry for that. I have no idea how this system works, either. I can go edit your old comment to add a question mark, at least! :)

  433. I just wish one of the anti-process guys would finally explain why being purposely bad for 3 years in order to maximize draft chances is horrifying and something that has not and cannot succeed but being bad for 3 years (or longer!) because you’re a poorly run organization is just fine.

  434. American pro sports should adopt relegation like European soccer, that would end all tanking and process controversies!

  435. BigBlueAL: in the end sports is still entertainment.

    As a longtime Knicks fan, I’ve always leaned toward the tank/asset accumulation side of this debate. Decades of watching a shitty team whose brand of hoops has long been far from entertaining led me to see tanking as the best way forward for a team that generally finished much closer to the bottom of the league than the top. I mean how much worse would a Process-style tank have been from what we fans were already being subjected to year after year after year?

    That was how I wanted the Knicks to approach this season as well. I believe I am even on record here as expressing disappointment when Thibs was hired on account of a win now coach being the wrong choice for a team that by rights should be aiming for enough losses to ensure a top four pick.

    I am here now to admit that I was wrong. This last season reminded me just how entertaining a competitive Knicks team can be. After years of being utterly disengaged from this team, I found myself arranging my schedule to accommodate Knick broadcasts. This was a fun team to watch and root for despite my nagging suspicions that they were likely pretenders who would get bounced early from the playoffs.

    Reasonable people can disagree as to whether the Knicks would have been better served positioning themselves for a Suggs, a Cunningham this year in lieu of going balls to the wall for a 4 seed and a 1st round exit. Now that the excitement of the Knicks’ surprising season is over, I guess I’m a little disappointed to be out of the running for that level of talent. But would I trade the season I so enjoyed to have that? Naaaaa, I’m good. As BBA said, sports is entertainment and that was the most entertaining Knicks season for me in a very long time. It sure feels good to have that back again.

  436. Having a website that would fit perfectly in 2003 is a big part of what we do here. Not that I would want to kick that to the curb. Definitely makes for a different dynamic.

  437. not by accident, by incompetence…frustrating, but honest…manipulating your roster in an attempt to produce a negative result in order to gain a future competitive advantage, is dishonest…

    intentionally losing is much easier than intentionally trying to win…

  438. I barely pay attention to hockey, but that Islanders Tampa Bay final score is insane.

  439. All this talk about the win curve, by that measure what should the Knicks be expected do this off-season? The Knicks were 41-31 and by point differential that is exactly what their expected record should be so it’s not like the Knicks were lucky to have that record. There were obviously circumstances surrounding this season that helped the Knicks achieve that unexpected record but still they played like a 41-31 team.

  440. not by accident, by incompetence…frustrating, but honest…manipulating your roster in an attempt to produce a negative result in order to gain a future competitive advantage, is dishonest…

    and then there were none. okay. he didn’t call something trash or someone a mouth breather or insult someone’s sample size or god forfuckingbid play the mediocrity card. but let’s take note that the gig is nonetheless up. 27 wasted years meticulously forging a knickerblogger rep as a vonnegut character who congenitally yinyangs every strident argument with a wag the dog doodle of a snake biting its own tail or a mushroom tripping over ted cruz. all that uncareful effort of fully deniable smirksnark. and for what. just to come here tonight and finally prove he’s just another podium full of arbitrary takes like the hoi polloi he serenades. now who’s dishonest? who geo?

  441. geo:
    didn’t somebody here run into james jones in an elevator or something?

    That was me. I asked him about analytics and he said it’s not a big deal to him. Was in Portland. Then THCJ stood me up for a drink. Good times!

  442. not fair milo, vincoug is fairly earnest and i felt compelled to state something that seemed somewhat righteous and true…

    yeah, i don’t really care :)

  443. Did I stand you up or just never confirm?

    Side note this thread just got added to my mental bookmarks because of ptmilo, just pure gold

  444. speaking of which mister jowles, if your business travels take you down here to the city of angles, please let us know – drinks are on cdiggy, jk, KBPR and or donnie…they’ll hook us up…

  445. All this talk about the win curve, by that measure what should the Knicks be expected do this off-season? The Knicks were 41-31 and by point differential that is exactly what their expected record should be so it’s not like the Knicks were lucky to have that record. There were obviously circumstances surrounding this season that helped the Knicks achieve that unexpected record but still they played like a 41-31 team.

    That’s the million dollar question, right? Made all the more difficult by the fact that, what, five of their seven players who played the most minutes in the playoffs are free agents?

  446. Hinkie traded the reigning rookie of the year for a first round draft pick 3 years out. The rookie of the year was in the G-League by the end of his rookie deal and the pick became Mikal Bridges. That is an excellent move, regardless of “win-curve” and/or “process” context. If saying that makes me a member of a “cult”, then I guess I am. But it’s a pretty low bar for cultdome.

  447. @Knick Fan Not in NJ
    The drop-off in terms of sports science, training, coaching and player development to a lower tier of league like China is huge. Yet the money is still good. This results in too many bad habits and wasted opportunities.

    Yi Jianlian was trashed in NBA circles but he still got to dominate Asia for a decade. Now he’s gone, Zhou Qi the disappointing Rockets 2nd round pick still might be the best big man in Asia. Along with the several guys including Zhao Jiwei, they are still China’s MVPs enjoying money and fame, being just “good enough”. They probably can still gave Rui Hachimura and Yuta Watanabe’s Japan a legit fight for the best Asian team (they just beat Japan without these two). This still shows how much value experiences in the NBA bring.
    Hope the kid makes it.

  448. Thanks Joinone. I hope the kid makes it too. At least he seems to have drive. It’s not nothing that he was willing to actually come to the US just for a kind of pre-draft tryout.

  449. Hinkie traded the reigning rookie of the year for a first round draft pick 3 years out. The rookie of the year was in the G-League by the end of his rookie deal and the pick became Mikal Bridges. That is an excellent move, regardless of “win-curve” and/or “process” context. If saying that makes me a member of a “cult”, then I guess I am. But it’s a pretty low bar for cultdome.

    And then Elton Brand then traded Mikal Bridges for Zhaire Smith and a future first rounder (Smith is also out of the league). To be fair, the first rounder is Miami’s for this year, which is something like #18, which is not nothing. But boy, imagine this Sixers team with Mikal Bridges also on it.

  450. I believe I am even on record here as expressing disappointment when Thibs was hired on account of a win now coach being the wrong choice for a team that by rights should be aiming for enough losses to ensure a top four pick.

    I am here now to admit that I was wrong. This last season reminded me just how entertaining a competitive Knicks team can be.

    I’m not sure that you are wrong. It’s TBD.

    This season was fun as hell and I sure enjoyed it. But it needs to be the start of something. The point is not to have one fun season, then backslide into bullshit like we did after 2013.

    Any year we start winning will be fun. I would have been perfectly fine delaying it one more year if it meant setting us up for better long term success. The fun you had this year wouldn’t have gone away, it would have simply been transferred one year forward.

    The degree of difficulty to make this team a true contender is incredibly high right now. It’s not like we turned this season in ahead of a bumper free agent class. It’s quite possible, maybe even likely, that we are rim rocked in this position.

    So yeah. TBD.

  451. Hey Brian, what about a post with 2 polls about the conference finals? And please, don’t skip the option “LAC in 4” just to check if a troll votes on that one. :P

  452. Here’s an idea:

    Re-sigming Noel long term and trading Mitch for Wiseman.

    Listen, I HATE the idea of not having Mitch on this team. But this one, I wouldn’t mind. I think Kenny Payne would work wonders with Wiseman. As a matter of fact, I’d add Knox and one of our 2nds for Wiseman and a future 1st. I believe the Knicks would be looking to add a backup C in the draft with #32 anyway..and I do like Bassey btw. I’d be thrilled if we land him in the draft, but if a deal like this we’re ever on the table- I’d take it

  453. What’s frustrating about this debate is that there are very few, if any, instances of a pure Win Curve based approach to team-building, which requires a long-term alignment between ownership and management, and to a lesser but significant degree, the coach. Philly was on its way, but bailed prematurely. OKC seems to be embracing it right now. It just seems like there are lots of examples of teams who churn their way to building a decent team without following the strict win curve rule book. Dallas, Miami, Utah, Boston, Clippers, etc. have all been “churners” more than “the Process” in their respective approaches to team-building.

    I’m sort of with those who believe that there are some very simple fundamentals to team-building that are separable from the “chasing marginal wins” conversation. Maintain cap flexibility. Win transactions. Draft well. Construct a cohesive roster. Match the coach to the situation. Develop young talent. Promote a positive team culture. Build a top-notch medical/fitness/nutritional team.

    If you do these things, you can skip steps in the process if the right opportunities present themselves. This kind of thing happens all the time.

    When teams get locked into mediocrity or worse, it’s often due to things like faulty roster construction (see: Portland, Philly, Pelicans, Minny) or inability to land the right big fish (see: Boston, Indiana) or drafting poorly (see: Knicks, Kings). The chasing marginal wins thing is probably overstated in most cases.

  454. I will again preface this by saying how much I enjoyed the three home playoff games at a raucous MSG, but the cold, hard reality is that the Knicks have worked their way to the mediocre (*) middle. The big upward slope in their “win curve” is mostly a mirage, with little to no predictive value.(**) If I had to venture a looking forward prediction, it would be that there’s like a 70% chance that three years from now we will rue missing this year’s lottery.

    –Their star player just laid a massive egg in the playoffs, is hard to build around given his niche skill set, and is a year out from free agency and a big, massive raise.

    –Their roster is filled with veteran role player mercenaries, pretty much all of whom are now free agents.

    –Because of shitty drafting and development, they have a hole in the cost-controlled rookie scale sweet spot. (Not a complete one, obviously, since they have RJ. But the niche is badly underserved.)

    –Their coach, while very talented, is a bit of a red ass who doesn’t really like young players, thus making it hard to rebuild that cost-controlled rookie scale sweet spot.

    –They’re probably going to overpay the coach’s pet point guard who, plain as day, can’t play more than backup minutes without breaking down.

    –While they have cap space, they have it in a summer with a dreadful free agency class.

    –Lines of authority and responsibility in the front office remain unclear and the quality of the people in the most responsible positions remain a question mark.

    The one thing they did do is make themselves more attractive to superstars and that’s not nothing. This enterprise eventually probably rises or falls on whether they can attract one of them. The right move is probably moving heaven and earth to get Zion (or to a lesser extent Luca) here. Short of that, get ready for a lot of muddled middle in the Knick future.

    (*) No intent here whatsoever to wade into the definitional debate. Use a different word if it works.

    (**) How do the Knicks “play the win curve”? See? — there’s no answer. Because the “principle” isn’t really a “principle,” it’s just something that occasionally seems to make some sense.

  455. The Honorable Cock Jowles:
    Did I stand you up or just never confirm?

    Side note this thread just got added to my mental bookmarks because of ptmilo, just pure gold

    You told me to meet you at some bar downtown near my hotel. So I walked a couple blocks over there and then you commented into the thread that you were joking and were far from that location. Bit of dick move if you ask me but I’m a forgiving guy so don’t beat yourself up about it. Lol.

  456. Let’s take the “get a job” process, you should prepare your cv, then search for openings, then submit it to the ones that make sense, then get ready for the interview when they call you, then nail the interview… for the end result of getting hired!
    Now let’s just say your father is a very powerful man (eg, Dolan, James) and he’ll get you the interview, if you were explaining to other people how to get a job, would you skip all those steps you were fortunate to skip because of your father? Or would you build the process just like i did (because not everybody has a powerful dad, it can happen but it’s not all that common)?
    Should you try to skip steps if you can? Of course. But if there isn’t a way to do it, just do it the right way.

  457. Brian Cronin: That’s the million dollar question, right? Made all the more difficult by the fact that, what, five of their seven players who played the most minutes in the playoffs are free agents?

    Even more difficult because there really isn’t anyone available this summer and even fewer players that fit what we need.

  458. As the archives show, I was ready to go all-in on Randle, but the playoffs really, really soured me on him. (*) The right move is to sell high on him and not pay him. I’m back to where I was most of the year on him. No chance he can be a 1 on a really good team, his skills don’t really fit a secondary role, very hard to build around him in the only role in which paying him makes sense. Maxing him will be a disaster.

    He’s probably a usable chip in the disgruntled star trade market and I would certainly use him that way. I’d probably even trade him for Simmons but I’d have to be comfortable with the other moves, because Simmons is also a guy with a very niche skill set.

    (*) There’s a strong likelihood that this observation will bring mocking and ridicule and it does venture a little too close to Bill Simmons, ca. 2007 — but I was able to get a nice look at Julius’s body language and demeanor during his struggles, and it was … I’ll be charitable … not great. Just not a package I want to invest in, sorry to say.

  459. People have written 20,000 words arguing against the win curve in this thread and all they’ve really said is “We don’t understand the win curve.”

    It is ok to “chase” marginal wins while adhering to the win curve. It is not ok to sign Joakim Noah and Courtney Lee to 4 year contracts that cripple your ability to compete down the road in order to acheive those marginal wins. That’s the win curve.

    If CP3 opts out of his contract this year and becomes a free agent, who would be better off signing him to a 3-year, $120mm contract: the 76’ers or the Pistons?

    When you say you don’t believe in the win curve, what you’re saying is it makes equal sense for Philadelphia and Detroit to sign Paul. So go on. Make the argument for the Pistons to max Chris Paul.

  460. Hubert: When you say you don’t believe in the win curve, what you’re saying is it makes equal sense for Philadelphia and Detroit to sign Paul.

    That isn’t what we’re saying at all.

    Where are the Knicks on the win curve? The teams at the obvious points are easy ones, so easy that you don’t even need to cobble together a “win curve” theory to explain it at all. The principle properly described is that “NBA teams shouldn’t waste money or assets on marginal wins at the expense of lottery position.” Adding the silly term “win curve” to it is just faux-intellectualizing things and broadening the idea to a place it has no applicability.

    “Win curve” is not an idea with universal applicability. That’s the thing people are confusing with not “believing in the win curve.”

    EDIT: Hubert edited his post while I was writing. I disconcur with the assertion that “not wasting money and assets on marginal wins” “is” the “win curve.” The term “win curve” is not an improvement, linguistically or in terms of basketball, on the term “don’t waste money or assets on marginal wins.”

  461. When you’re low on the win curve, your goal should be to acquire a top player. Some people think the best way to do that is to tank. Some people think it’s best to field a competitive team and attract free agents. These are both proper strategies. Arguing about which one you prefer does not deny the existence of the win curve.

    The Knicks chose the latter strategy this year and they did it expertly by not signing anyone to a long term deal. That’s hard to do. If they can do that every year until they land a star in free agency, that’s still operating along the win curve.

  462. That isn’t what we’re saying at all.

    Yes it is!!!

    That’s why people keep telling you you have no idea what you’re talking about.

    People are arguing about which strategy is optimal for a certain point in the win curve, or where the Knicks are on the win curve, while saying there is no such thing as a win curve. That’s why everyone is talking past each other. Half the conversation doesn’t know what the fuck it is they’re arguing about.

  463. The principle properly described is that “NBA teams shouldn’t waste money or assets on marginal wins at the expense of lottery position.”

    see? we all knew you didn’t know what it was.

    That’s not the win curve. That’s tanking. Tanking is a strategy that some people think is optimal when you are low on the win curve.

    You’re basically saying “I don’t believe in the freeway bc speeding is bad.”

  464. I’ll just say this one more time and then move on. The Knicks as we sit here now disprove the “win curve” idea. Their actual win curve is trending massively upward, more upward than even the Suns’ last summer. But there’s no serious sense in which the Knicks should go all in now. The fact that you can take two teams with essentially similar actual win curves and yet have completely different prescriptions for how they should go forward falsifies the idea in and of itself. In fact, that’s exactly what it means to falsify a theory. If there are still holdouts after this obvious contemporary example, horse to water and all.

  465. Hubert: see? we all knew you didn’t know what it was.

    That’s not the win curve. That’s tanking. Tanking is a strategy that some people think are optimal depending on where they are on the win curve.

    You’re basically saying “I don’t believe in the highway bc speeding is bad.”

    Dude, you literally just said this like three minutes ago:

    It is not ok to sign Joakim Noah and Courtney Lee to 4 year contracts that cripple your ability to compete down the road in order to acheive those marginal wins. That’s the win curve.

  466. yes. yes I did. And that makes perfect sense to the people who know what the win curve is, of which you are not one.

  467. Hubert:
    yes. yes I did. And that makes perfect sense to the people who know what the win curve is, of which you are not one.

    So when I say “NBA teams shouldn’t chase marginal wins” I’m talking about tanking and when other people say “NBA teams shouldn’t chase marginal wins” they’re talking about the win curve.

    Got it.

    So where are the Knicks on the win curve? The world breathlessly awaits.

  468. Hubert: People are arguing about which strategy is optimal for a certain point in the win curve, or where the Knicks are on the win curve, while saying there is no such thing as a win curve. That’s why everyone is talking past each other. Half the conversation doesn’t know what the fuck it is they’re arguing about.

    I’m catching up. Again, that isn’t what people are saying. The Knicks, like every other team in the league, have a win curve; you can plot their historical wins, draw a line through it, and poof, there’s something there that looks like a curve. The question is really, “Given the shape of that curve, what should the Knicks do?” and the right answer of course is “We need way more data than just the curve to know the answer.” That’s what’s meant by the assertion that there’s really no such thing as playing the win curve. No one sane would look at the essentially similar 2020 Suns and 2021 Knicks win curves and say, “I got my answer now. Cocktail and edibles time.” It’s a fatuous idea.

  469. E, all merc’d out: I’m catching up.Again, that isn’t what people are saying.The Knicks, like every other team in the league, have a win curve; you can plot their historical wins, draw a line through it, and poof, there’s something there that looks like a curve.The question is really, “Given the shape of that curve, what should the Knicks do?” and the right answer of course is “We need way more data than just the curve to know the answer.”That’s what’s meant by the assertion that there’s really no such thing as playing the win curve.No one sane would look at the essentially similar 2020 Suns and 2021 Knicks win curves and say, “I got my answer now.Cocktail and edibles time.”It’s a fatuous idea.

    That’s not what the win curve is. Here are several articles about the win curve in baseball that explain it:

    https://tht.fangraphs.com/rethinking-the-win-curve/

    https://blogs.fangraphs.com/win-curves-and-player-pricing/

    https://grantland.com/the-triangle/what-is-the-mlb-win-curve-anyway/

    https://www.baseballprospectus.com/news/article/5852/when-is-a-win-not-a-win-improving-on-mpmw/

  470. vincoug: That’s not what the win curve is.

    When people have to say over and over that “you don’t understand the thing” to people that obviously do, and “that’s not what the thing really is,” you have in your hands a telltale sign of a defective thing. It’s faux-intellectual claptrap. Take the L on it. It’s no big deal.

  471. When people have to say over and over that “you don’t understand the thing” to people that obviously do, and “that’s not what the thing really is,” you have in your hands a telltale sign of a defective thing. It’s faux-intellectual claptrap. Take the L on it. It’s no big deal.

    Wow you read all of those articles very quickly!

  472. 1. In some instances marginal wins help attract trades and free agents. That can accelerate the process if done “intelligently” (as we have been doing since Rose/Thibs too over) .

    2. Arguably the 3 best teams in the NBA this year when 100% and playing all out were the Lakers, Nets, and Clippers. 2 are out and 1 is in trouble due to injuries. Point being, when you are building a team you shouldn’t necessarily think in terms of “are we as good as the top 2-3 teams if we make this move”. Just putting yourself into that 50 win category could get you a title if there is an upset or injury or two.

    3. When you make moves for marginal wins, it does not lock you into “that team”. Players contracts are assets (though people should never be treated the way Hinkie treated them). As long as a player’s contract is attractive, it doesn’t matter if he’s 22 or 35, he can be moved later in another deal that makes more sense if one comes up. You should not be asking does this 33 year old player make sense given where this team is now. You should be asking does he make us better now and can we move him later as part of deal if a much better player becomes available.

  473. thenoblefacehumper: Wow you read all of those articles very quickly!

    Go back to the Christians in Rome idea and imagine a Christian saying “No, you really don’t understand it” and “No that isn’t what it is at all” and then hyperlinking the New Testament for the Roman and you’re pretty much where we are here.

  474. I’ll just say this one more time and then move on. The Knicks as we sit here now disprove the “win curve” idea. Their actual win curve is trending massively upward, more upward than even the Suns’ last summer. But there’s no serious sense in which the Knicks should go all in now. The fact that you can take two teams with essentially similar actual win curves and yet have completely different prescriptions for how they should go forward falsifies the idea in and of itself. In fact, that’s exactly what it means to falsify a theory. If there are still holdouts after this obvious contemporary example, horse to water and all.

    You’ve already proved you have no clue what the win curve is a million times over, but this post alone shows you’re truly lost. The win curve doesn’t have a lot to do with a team’s raw win total because not all e.g. 41 win teams are created equally.

    Of course you can’t look at the Knicks’ raw win total and, without knowing anything else, say what their next set of moves should look like. You have to know how much cap space they can spend without losing current production, the ages of the productive players on the roster, etc. The answer for some 41 win teams will be “trade as many players as you can for future assets” while for others it will be “make moves to maximize the production on your current roster.”

    You’re lost because you seem to think this context-dependent approach somehow disproves the idea of the win curve. In reality, no one has ever said “you can take one look at a team’s raw win total and determine their place on the win curve.”

    That this is necessarily a context-dependent determination is so obvious no one has ever really bothered to say it explicitly.

  475. When people have to say over and over that “you don’t understand the thing” to people that obviously do, and “that’s not what the thing really is,” you have in your hands a telltale sign of a defective thing. It’s faux-intellectual claptrap. Take the L on it. It’s no big deal.

    No, you just simply don’t understand the thing.

    Occam’s Razor and all that.

  476. From here on out I will always, when I see his posts, visualize E typing madly away at his laptop, dressed in his linen undershirt with his helmet tipped back, his armor and short sword lying in disarray around him.

  477. The win curve doesn’t have a lot to do with a team’s raw win total because not all e.g. 41 win teams are created equally.

    No, of course not, but all 41 win teams with a similar curve to that 41 win endpoint are created equally or the theory isn’t worth spit.

    In reality, no one has ever said “you can take one look at a team’s raw win total and determine their place on the win curve.”

    I hope not, because a team’s raw win total would be a single point, not a curve.

    Here’s a thought: Whenever you find yourself wholly buying into an idea ask yourself something along the lines of “What would I need to see to make me not subscribe to this idea?” If you don’t have a conception of that, you really aren’t thinking things through or looking for true things. None of us are perfect snowflakes and we all glom onto things because of intuition, perspective, gut feel, preference, etc., but we should know when we’re doing that and not pretend we’re doing something else.

  478. 1. In some instances marginal wins help attract trades and free agents. That can accelerate the process if done “intelligently” (as we have been doing since Rose/Thibs too over) .

    Then those wins aren’t marginal gahhhhhhhhhhhhhh

    3. When you make moves for marginal wins, it does not lock you into “that team”. Players contracts are assets (though people should never be treated the way Hinkie treated them). As long as a player’s contract is attractive, it doesn’t matter if he’s 22 or 35, he can be moved later in another deal that makes more sense if one comes up

    Hey look, it’s that proposition you’ve restated a million times as if it’s original when in reality no one disagrees. Yeah, sign valuable contracts when you can identify them. Hot take!

    The problem is there is a multibillion dollar industry dedicated to making sure player contracts are not “attractive” to teams. These contracts are very rare and tend to require some exceptional circumstances e.g. a player being so good even the max salary underpays him or Marcus Morris reneging on a deal with the Spurs.

    If you actively eschew asset collection because you’re certain you can build a team of Marcus Morii, you’re going to fail 99% of the time because, unlike future assets which are virtually infinite and get traded countless times during the course of the NBA transaction window, there are very few of these contracts to go around.

    This is why we couldn’t get a first-round pick for Courtney Lee whenever we wanted even though he was a decent player.

  479. cgreene: You told me to meet you at some bar downtown near my hotel. So I walked a couple blocks over there and then you commented into the thread that you were joking and were far from that location. Bit of dick move if you ask me but I’m a forgiving guy so don’t beat yourself up about it. Lol.

    Whoa whoa whoa this is news to me and not in character. Link me to that thread so I can hate myself

  480. Then those wins aren’t marginal gahhhhhhhhhhhhhh

    That’s true, and I agree with you here more than Strat — but you don’t know whether the wins are marginal or not until you know whether you made the trades or signed the free agents. We need something with useful value for future action — that’s the fundamental disconnect here. Once the Knicks have a new 2022 data point to add to the win curve, people will talk about a bunch of things as if they were inevitable or made sense and all the rest (just like they’re doing with the Suns), but we need a guide to action now, before we know that data point. Right now, the Knicks win curve looks a whole lot like the 2020 Suns, but as we all (I hope) know, they are not the 2020 Suns.

  481. Cyber,

    Hollinger picked Queta as one of his draft sleepers in an athletic article today.

    Here’s an excerpt:

    Queta still has to get better defending away from the basket, and that’s a concern for any big man in today’s NBA. The Aggies always played him in a deep drop, so he didn’t get many chances to show perimeter quickness, but his rare forays away from the charge circle weren’t tragic. He’s a little slow laterally but not as bad as some other fives getting more draft hype, plus he showed a real ability to close down space and block shots from behind at the basket.

    Offensively, Queta added something to his game every year at Utah State, and by the end, he was a legitimately good passer who also had a variety of one-on-one moves to score on the block. Utah State’s plodding pace masked just how effective he was: Queta averaged 30 points and six assists per 100 possessions in Mountain West play.

    Another interesting ranking was Hollinger dropping Suggs to 6.

  482. Early Bird: Hollinger picked Queta as one of his draft sleepers in an athletic article today.

    Thanks EB! Going to read the article, and when i finish it, i’m going to send it to Leon for him to take Queta with our 32nd pick! ;)

  483. The following principle is I think indisputable (although I have been impressed by the quality of the trolls here in the past): “How good your team currently is should factor into your thinking about what moves are good for your team”. It’s not the only factor, it’s a factor. The same way that I might look at a move and think it’s bad although the identical move might be good for another team based on their roster strengths and weaknesses, or style of play, a move can make sense for one team and not for another team based on how good the team is. Call that what you will but I think everyone can agree on that much and I’m not sure there’s really much to be said beyond that.

  484. The problem is there is a multibillion dollar industry dedicated to making sure player contracts are not “attractive” to teams. These contracts are very rare and tend to require some exceptional circumstances

    Not true.

    We just did a great job of finding MULTIPLE attractive contracts this year alone. One could argue our mistake was not giving a couple of them more years. They aren’t as rare as you are suggesting. Your thinking is being influenced by the incompetence of the past. The probability of success is different when you have good basketball people and good financial people in charge. Previously we only had one or neither. So we failed.

    If you actively eschew asset collection because you’re certain you can build a team of Marcus Morii, you’re going to fail 99% of the time because, unlike future assets which are virtually infinite and get traded countless times during the course of the NBA transaction window, there are very few of these contracts to go around.

    Not true.

    First, I don’t eschew ANYTHING! You are the one limiting yourself to draft.

    A draft pick is an asset with “x” value. “X” varies with where you are in the draft, how good you are at drafting, how strong the draft is etc.. You also have to remain mindful there is a significant amount of luck involved in the draft no matter how competent you are.

    A player is an asset with “y” value. “Y” varies with how good the player is, what his contract is like, etc..

    Neither is intrinsically superior. Either X or Y can be of greater value.

    You should typically go where the better value is at that time with some exceptions.

    IMO, some people here overvalue picks. Then when one of our picks fails they blame the people making the picks as if they would never make a mistake. lol Failures come with the territory.

    What you should do depends on the value in the market that year. IMO, it’s usually a bad idea to lock yourself into the draft.

  485. but I think everyone can agree on that much and I’m not sure there’s really much to be said beyond that.

    I’d say we’re good for at least another 20 to 30 posts on the subject…

    and, agreeing with folks is nowhere near as entertaining as mixing it up a bit…

  486. Good news, i took my first Pfizer shot today. All went smoothly, and for now no side effects… i’m still a diehard Knicks fan, so no change in that! :D
    Europe is a little behind the US, but we’re getting there. Maybe by September things will be more or less getting back to normal.


  487. I’d say we’re good for at least another 20 to 30 posts on the subject…:

    This is KB, pretty sure we can squeeze 2-3 decades out of anything.

  488. cybersoze:
    Good news, i took my first Pfizer shot today. All went smoothly, and for now no side effects… i’m still a diehard Knicks fan, so no change in that! :D
    Europe is a little behind the US, but we’re getting there. Maybe by September things will be more or less getting back to normal.

    Way to go Cyber! :-)

  489. So when I say “NBA teams shouldn’t chase marginal wins” I’m talking about tanking and when other people say “NBA teams shouldn’t chase marginal wins” they’re talking about the win curve.

    Got it.

    Perhaps a new thread topic could be “win curve: defined.”

    It is not about whether or not you chase marginal wins. It’s about how much you should be willing to pay for them, and when it makes the most sense to pay a premium.

    The Knicks had the lowest payroll in the league and no long term commitments. There was no violation of the win curve, they simply outperformed expectations.

  490. Great news, cybersoze!

    I was in a store the other day where the manager (woman in her late 50s or early 60s) was masked. We got on the subject of the vaccine, and it came out that she hasn’t gotten it yet, and is hesitant, worried about possible side effects, etc. That she was masked in the first place suggested she was taking the virus itself seriously, so I just gently told her that I felt lousy for a day after my second Moderna, but ever since then I’ve just felt relieved that I can go places and not feel like I’m at risk at any moment where I leave the house. Hopefully, she gets the shot. That we have so many available and so few remaining people who want to get it exasperates me, especially when I have friends and family in other countries that don’t have nearly the vaccine supply.

  491. I asked him about analytics and he said it’s not a big deal to him.

    your interaction with him stuck out to me cgreene because right around that time i finally started becoming a true believer in all the basketball analytics stuff being touted and preached here…i remember thinking: wow, what a dummy that james jones guy is…and, sure enough, the suns continued to suck afterwards…

    i don’t know, maybe he became a true believer during then and now – or, maybe talent evaluation and acquisition, along with player development and solid game coaching are even more important than just numbers alone…

  492. If I’m 95% sure I’m going to be in the lottery, I’m running away like wildfire from all marginal wins even if I can get the wins for free because the cost in ping-pong balls is too high. That’s an inviolate principle. The less and less certain I am that I’m going to be in the lottery, the more and more I’m ok with marginal wins. Obviously there, as in the real world, the key is how good you are at projecting those kind of percentages. I’d be interested to know something like whether in the Suns planning meetings anyone said something like, “If we sign CP3 and everything breaks just right, we could contend for a championship.” I doubt it, and in reality, the looking forward odds of that were probably something like 5% (*) or less, but they hit the number. The key there is to be open-minded and permit yourself to be uncertain, including w/r/t upside possibilities. For example, every Knick planning session should include the possibility, albeit small, that RJ Barrett reaches all-NBA status. That’s just one of a zillion similar possible examples. This is a game of probabilities, best guesses, uncertainties; it’s not a game of philosophies and stubborn fixed ideas.

    With the Knicks you just have a number of possible illusions to deal with — COVID, “Thibs wins,” the heavy reliance on mercs, Randle’s playoff collapse, etc. It’s very tough to plan out where to go, and several different paths could be justified.

    (*) You could look at preseason Vegas odds to get something of a good start empirical read on it.

  493. We just hit post number 666. If that isn’t a sign to start a new thread, I don’t know what is!

  494. geo: your interaction with him stuck out to me cgreene because right around that time i finally started becoming a true believer in all the basketball analytics stuff being touted and preached here…i remember thinking: wow, what a dummy that james jones guy is…and, sure enough, the suns continued to suck afterwards…

    i don’t know, maybe he became a true believer during then and now – or, maybe talent evaluation and acquisition, along with player development and solid game coaching are even more important than just numbers alone…

    The basketball analytics stuff measures and describes things that have already happened way better than they were measured and described before but beyond that … meh. As a tool for looking forward GMing, double meh.

  495. okay then – i have just done extensive research in the last 30 seconds on exactly what the heck “win curve” actually is defined as (thanks for the links vincoug): and, most of the references seem to apply solely to team revenue…oh yeah, sports is a business, an entertainment business…

    #justsaynototanking

  496. Would the resigning of Frank Ntilikina fit within the Knicks win curve or send them tumbling back down into the depths of mediocrity?