I’d be lying if I said I knew where things stood entering the weekend, but I know Brown has made a good impression during the interview process and garnered support.

Also, re free agency:

I think the Knicks will take a look at the guard market for a bench player. Also, ESPN reports that Celtics veteran Al Horford will have a robust market this offseason. I think the Knicks will also at least check in on Horford’s situation in Boston. The Celtics shed salary by trading Jrue Holiday and Kristaps Porzingis and they certainly want Horford back, but are limited in what they can offer the veteran big man.

I’m expecting some good players to shake loose due to cap concerns and roster crunches. But I hope to see some sort of trade to retool our top 7.

Are we allowed to call Dink Pate Pink Date?

And are we allowed to call Ron Artest Ron Artest?

Seems to me that James Borrego would be an odd choice. In five years as a head coach, he never coached a playoff game. One would think that if a former coach was hired, playoff success would be a prerequisite.

I’m not crazy about Mike Brown either. Seems like he lost the locker room in Sacto, and his playoff success in Cleveland was largely on LeBron’s shoulders.

Of the available retreads, I dislike Taylor Jenkins the least. He coached a very young team that sort of fell apart due to injury and Ja’s weird shit, and seemed hamstrung by management with misfit assistant coaches.

That does sound like we’ll be priced out of the Horford sweepstakes

The argument that’s been made by others for Borrego is that the Hornets are a deeply dysfunctional organization, that he brought them out of the depths and created an interesting offense despite much less talent than he would have here.

The Brown argument is that he was also in a deeply dysfunctional organization — and gave them their first stretch of sanity and competence in a long time — and that he’s proved much better at adapting to the modern NBA, and to setting up a modern NBA offense, than Thibs. And everybody seems to like him.

The big knock on Jenkins I’ve heard from Grizzlies fans it that he can also be stubborn and bad at in-game adjustments, which… didn’t we just hear that song?

If you want playoff success, Budz and Malone are literally just out there waiting.

Julius being a free agent in a year where nobody has any money isn’t great for him

I wonder what OG would get as a free agent in this market.

The Brown argument is that he was also in a deeply dysfunctional organization — and gave them their first stretch of sanity and competence in a long time

It was a very brief stretch, though.

The biggest concern without Thibs is that we still are a deeply dysfunctional organization and he was excellent at building a dam that kept everything at bay.

I would be fine with Mike Malone.

The biggest concern without Thibs is that we still are a deeply dysfunctional organization and he was excellent at building a dam that kept everything at bay.

Entirely fair, yes.

To be clear, I meant my biggest concern is that maybe he was keeping dysfunction at bay. I’m not asserting that we are currently dysfunctional. Although there are signs. Rick Brunson being on the bench is one of the biggest, and I would feel very relieved if we “promoted” him to the front office and let the next coach have his own staff.

you don’t have to be a full on coach nihilist to know that coaches operate in a sea of noise and confounders. you’re not likely to see through that noise by leaning on the most confounded, lease controlled outcomes, like non-contextual playoff success. it’s harder than that. the stakes are smaller but so are the margins you need to disentangle. should you at least ask for it as a minimum starting point for vetting? probably not. the cost of cutting out good candidates and focusing on a tiny pool of veteran resumes via a very low information filter is probably going to outweigh any possible benefit.

can’t say i know really enough about borrego to have a useful opinion but i seriously doubt that mike malone or literally any other playoff decorated coach would have done anything in the postseason with those charlotte teams.

“The argument that’s been made by others for Borrego is that the Hornets are a deeply dysfunctional organization, that he brought them out of the depths and created an interesting offense despite much less talent than he would have here.”

I kind of cringe every time I hear anyone talk about our need to run an “interesting offense.” In my opinion, there are two truths in winning championships:

-Offense is overrated compared to defense…if you have great offensive players, you will score even with a basic offense, but if you can’t stop anyone it won’t matter. D’Antoni never learned this, which is why he doesn’t have a chip despite running some of the best offenses ever with great offensive players.
-Sooner or later you are likely come up against a defense in the playoffs. that will gum up your offense no matter how “interesting” it is, and winning will come down to great iso players taking over games down the stretch, and getting stops vs. making contested shots.

I thought we lost to Indiana because their defensive intensity was much higher than ours. I also thought OKC and IND played great defense against each other, but OKC had the better defensive personnel. Maybe a healthy Hali would have made a difference, but I, for one, was more impressed with Indy’s defense than their offense.

Detroit almost beat us because their defense was excellent. We beat Boston because their defense was lacking without Porzingis and with a hobbled Brown, an aging Jrue and Horford, and a weak defensive bench (Kornet had one good game and is a decent rim protector but is terrible in space.)

So if we hire a coach with the goal of “unlocking” our offense, and don’t address our fundamental personnel issues, particularly on defense, I am going to be expecting a rude awakening for lots of folks who want to run it back with a different coach.

pt that’s fair, but it has been a while since anyone showed any interest in Borrego despite tons of coaching changes. One would suspect that if his coaching was all that intriguing despite the record, some savvy FO would have picked up on it by now and given him another shot, or at least brought him in as an assistant. Yet he wound up not being on the sidelines for 2 seasons and then working as an assistant coach for the woeful Pelicans.

I mean, you are correct in that it’s hard to tell without actually seeing him coach a good team in a deep playoff run…maybe he’s the guy who moves the needle for us. But that would be a huge ask, given how much pressure there will be on the guy who replaces Brunson fave Tom Thibodeau on the heels of the longest playoff run in 25 years.

“i seriously doubt that mike malone or literally any other playoff decorated coach would have done anything in the postseason with those charlotte teams.”

Right, but we know for sure that Mike Malone did something in the postseason with a good Denver team. Although I suppose it could be argued that he blew the series vs. Minny last year. He also has a surly nature that might rub our softies the wrong way.

I kind of cringe every time I hear anyone talk about our need to run an “interesting offense.” In my opinion, there are two truths in winning championships:

-Offense is overrated compared to defense…if you have great offensive players, you will score even with a basic offense, but if you can’t stop anyone it won’t matter. D’Antoni never learned this, which is why he doesn’t have a chip despite running some of the best offenses ever with great offensive players.
-Sooner or later you are likely come up against a defense in the playoffs. that will gum up your offense no matter how “interesting” it is, and winning will come down to great iso players taking over games down the stretch, and getting stops vs. making contested shots.

While I generally agree with Z’s supposition here, I believe the 24/25 Knicks were a different situation. No question there is a structural problem with the defense Kat/Brunson) that needs to be addressed.

However, the offense wasn’t “interesting” by any standard, as the starting five (which the ex coach clutched like pearls) was a net negative the last 2/3rds of the season.

Both issues need to be addressed and the former coach clearly wasn’t the guy to do that. That , however, doesn’t mean the next guy won’t bollix it up worse, but they need a change to progress.

Was reading Vecenie’s draft grades and of course San Antonio successfully tanked their way to a huge win again. At this point they should just own it and change the team name to the Texas Tanks and sport an AbramsX MBT as their logo. But I digress.

I brought it up bc it’s clear that we are going to get Donnie Spurs Fan in the near future. But I think it’s too soon for next year. So I found myself engaged in a fun exercise: trying to guess Donnie’s next team.

I thought about the Clippers but they’re too local. The voyeurism of being a Pacers fan was especially endearing, so that aspect has to stay.

I thought about the Pistons and Magic. They are both up and coming but their brand of basketball is boring, and entertainment is paramount.

The perfect Donnie team needs to have a healthy dollop of antagonism. We have to be pissed off that he likes this team or else it won’t work.

I think I’ve got it (though I wonder if he will stay away from it simply bc I guessed it). It’s the Atlanta Hawks. They’re good, they’re young, they’re fun. You’ll get to tell us how great it is to watch Jalen Johnson. We all hate Trae, there’s some residual Porzingis bitterness, and Atlanta is a interesting place to pretend you’re experiencing.

Please don’t let me figuring this out prevent it from happening. It’s too early to embrace the Spurs. We need Donnie Ice Trae in 2026.

Bob, I agree, and felt that Thibs had run his course and a coaching change was the correct move. I just don’t expect it to change our chances at playoff success much, if at all. But I am looking forward to seeing a different approach to using the bench. I want to see last year’s rookies get more playing time, and vets like Delon or whoever as well. I would like to see Diawara run out there from time to time as an energy guy off the bench/transition finisher. For me, the best outcome of next season would be to turn several (or at least a couple) of these young players into dependable rotation pieces. But that is not a reason to pick a coach for this “ready to win” per se.

A slow Saturday thread filled with smart takes I largely agree with. I’m loving it.

I agree with Bob (someone bookmark this!) as well as Z-Man. Our offense was two-dimensional; I’m no coach but I could imagine a slew of stuff that would diversify things, provide more touches for everyone, get the defense scrambling, and help us become much more efficient and effective. We still have two of the best iso scorers in the league, so we’ll always (barring foul trouble) have a late ‘out’ on any play. If I were a smart offensive coach that’d be a dream situation.

But yes, especially in the playoffs, defense matters more and more the deeper you go. Again though, despite our two ‘holes’ we have a bunch of really good personnel (Mitch/Deuce/OG) and if we did more than ‘the same thing’ over and over (how about no KAT drop, guys?) there’s real hope. Hell, just changing things up now and again — I distinctly remember other teams throwing zones against us now and again and completely gumming us up for a bit.

No question there is a structural problem with the defense Kat/Brunson) that needs to be addressed.

However, the offense wasn’t “interesting” by any standard, as the starting five (which the ex coach clutched like pearls) was a net negative the last 2/3rds of the season.

Both issues need to be addressed and the former coach clearly wasn’t the guy to do that.

Because a coach isn’t the person who needs to fix structural issues. That is the architect’s job.

If all we do is change coaches, all we’ll do is change the way we address the structural flaws. They’ll still be there, and they will inevitably get exploited.

Leon needs to fix the structural flaws, not hand them to a different coach.

“…we have a bunch of really good personnel (Mitch/Deuce/OG)…”

-Mitch’s skillset is too narrow for me. ymmv. Great contract, though!
-Deuce is undersized and his offense is limited. Great contract, though!
-OG is also limited on offense and paid an awful lot for a guy with those limitations. Great defender, though!

I wouldn’t mind if we moved on from any of these guys, but getting commensurate value for them won’t be easy.

“…if we did more than ‘the same thing’ over and over (how about no KAT drop, guys?)…”

I think this is an oversimplification, as there were multiple coverages played throughout the playoffs, both in game and across games. We clearly had a personnel problem. Thibs made a pretty significant shift vs. Boston, he had players switching everything. It kinda worked, although Boston missed a load of open 3’s to help us out. At the end of the day, KAT can’t be hidden, especially with Brunson on the floor. Good offensive coaches will run multiple actions specifically geared towards exploiting his weaknesses, and will do so over and over again. And good defenses will find ways to gum him up so that his offensive output will not cover for his defensive shortcomings.

The 2024-25 Knicks reminded me of the 2012 Knicks v. Heat playoffs in that there a simple defensive move that severely limited our offense that we never effectively countered. In 2012, the Heat fronted Carmelo Anthony in the pinch post and we never effectively countered never found a scheme to counter.

Last season, teams defended KAT with a wing and we never found an effective counter.

I hope that our next coach has a strategy to make teams pay for defending KAT with a wing.

“I hope that our next coach has a strategy to make teams pay for defending KAT with a wing.”

Don’t hold your breath.

I’m expecting to re-up with the Pacers next season. But if they trade Bennedict to the Hawks, then it’s on.

I’m not sure Mike Malone is the right guy, but one thing he did do was win a championship with a team with a suspect defense. Had Denver ownership not been so cheap, he might have won 2-3. Of course he also had Jokic to work with. 😉

I’m still strongly in the Jenkins camp. I think to win a championship with this roster it’s going to take some coaching upside. I’m not sure he’s the guy, but I think out of the contenders so far, he’s the guy most likely to provide it. IMO we should gamble a little. He’s shown enough to not make it a huge gamble. Bare minimum he’s a good coach.

I don’t want Brown at all. He’s my last choice (can we have ranked voting?). He’s a very good coach, but he’s the kind of guy I would hire if I just wanted a solid coach that’s going to make the team competitive every night.

If that’s the direction they go (and it looks like it is), I’m going to be very disappointed. To me, that would be an indication that winning a championship is just lip service. My expectation will be 2-3 years of 50 wins, tough playoff play but an early exit. IMO, there’s almost no chance Brown improves the team off Thibs.

I hope that our next coach has a strategy to make teams pay for defending KAT with a wing.

You could just keep running the same offense.

I don’t have the stats handy but I recall hearing on a Lowe podcast that the Knicks essentially quit running KAT-Brunson PNR when faced with this strategy. There was never a major drop off in the ppp, we just quit running it.

It was our abandonment of the play that led to the precipitous drop in offensive production. KAT-Brunson PNRs were still more effective than Brunson-Hart PNRs even with a wing on KAT. We chose to run the worse play.

I hope that our next coach has a strategy to make teams pay for defending KAT with a wing.

Put someone that can defend and shoot the 3 like Deuce on the court.

Just to elaborate, ephus, there are several issues with KAT being guarded by wings, and not all his fault. First, it’s also that Brunson is being guarded by wings, making it hard to run the PnR effectively with those two. Second, if you post KAT up, teams will make the entry pass difficult, eating up the shot clock, and run weak side help at him as he power dribbles. The problem is compounded by Hart being dared to shoot, OG being unable to dribble, and Mikal being unable to consistently punish PGs and bigs switched on to him, and neither of those 2 guys being a strong rebounder. If you put Mitch or Deuce out there, you bring their offensive shortcomings into the picture (with Deuce, he can’t create or rebound and is undersized on D.)

Shams Charania
@ShamsCharania
·
BREAKING: The Chicago Bulls are trading Lonzo Ball to the Cleveland Cavaliers for Isaac Okoro, sources tell ESPN.

There goes that idea. 😉

it’s also that Brunson is being guarded by wings, making it hard to run the PnR effectively with those two.

There’s no evidence to support this idea. It was less effective than when a C was on KAT but it was still good. We just gave it up.

How many teams besides the Thunder & Celtics had two wings that could guard Brunson and KAT?

Okoro is extremely useless.

Sometimes I think we should re-hire Hubie Brown and let him run his 2 units of 5 playing the starters 30 mpg and the reserves 18mpg.

It would have better enabled the Knicks to stay with the Pacers track meet style.

I grew up with Wilt playing 48.5 mpg , but those days are gone. The way players are conditioned today with emphasis on weight training and plyometrics the human body just can’t stand 40+ mpg anymore.

What the hell is that trade for Chicago? Unless they’ve decided that Lonzo’s just never going to play more than a couple of dozen games a season. And even then, Okoro sucks.

Indiana’s positional length was a problem for us. Hali is a weak defender, but his length helps overcome that when compared to guys like Brunson, Trae, etc. (I wish that Brunson had the defensive impact of other undersized PGs like Lowry and CP3, but alas…). Nembhard is a solid 6’5″ with excellent athleticism. Siakam and Nesmith are a formidable wing combo. Turner is a quick-twitch 5 who protects the rim on D and stretches the floor on O. Their bench wasn’t as good defensively but they were aggressive and connected, and relied on disrupting plays rather than guarding guys individually, and guys like TJ and Mathurin would kill you with their pace. We just didn’t have the personnel to run that kind of defense without killing the offense.

That’s a nice trade for the Cavs. A three guard rotation with Garland, Mitchell, and Ball is pretty sweet. All three can be primary ball handler or play off ball. They could even play all three together. Damn I hope he’s not healthy next spring.

They also have a solid three forward rotation with Mobley, Strus, and Hunter. And Mobley can play C.

So many options for that team.

Okoro is extremely useless.

I wanted Lonzo Ball. I always liked him.

He pairs well next to Brunson defensively, can shoot the 3 and could run the offense when Brunson was out. I’m not sure if his knee can handle starters minutes, but I like him on the court instead of Hart when required. The only issue was the knees.

My ideal is finding a starting PF and shifting OG down to SF, but finding a Deuce with some size to replace Hart in the starting lineup works for me also.

I just had a good chuckle envisioning Thibs allocating minutes to Lonzo Ball.

Also that’s like, what, the third good player the Cavs have picked up without giving up a core piece since they went “all in”? (Strus, Hunter, Ball). And they still have first round picks in 2030, 2031, 2032.

“I grew up with Wilt playing 48.5 mpg , but those days are gone. The way players are conditioned today with emphasis on weight training and plyometrics the human body just can’t stand 40+ mpg anymore.”

Bob, as a fellow OG, beyond Wilt being a true freak of nature, as it applies generally, I think this is an oversimplification.

If you watch game film, guys like Wilt would basically live in the paint on both ends. You would almost never see him chasing guys around on the perimeter, certainly not 25 feet from the basket. West wasn’t driving and dunking, or guarding guys who were driving and dunking.

On top of that, playoffs were shorter and there was no international play.

Still, lots of those guys had short careers. Bill Russell was done at 34. Willis at age 31. Oscar at 35. West at 35. The minutes load took a toll. Most of the guys on the career minutes leaderboard are from well past Wilt’s day. If anything, weight training might have helped those guys.

And even then, Okoro sucks.

NBA GMs are too smart to give us anything good for our guys, though. They all saw how bad Mikal Bridges is and now he’s worthless.

I don’t know how this would stand up to scientific scrutiny, but this study suggests that the load on modern players is significantly higher than it was in the 1979-80, let alone 1960’s.

( I should also mention that guys in the 1960’s started their careers later, most playing 4 years in college…Wilt also played for the Globetrotters before entering the NBA at age 23.)

NBA GMs are too smart to give us anything good for our guys, though. They all saw how bad Mikal Bridges is and now he’s worthless.

What position would you like to fill by trading Mikal?

It’s unlikely we are going to get a starter as good as him with a different skillset at the same position.

IMO, it doesn’t make sense to get 2 inferior players just to add depth. I get that depth is an issue, but I don’t want to weaken the starting lineup for a better bench. I want to add someone to the bench with some quality that comes cheap.

The only way I’m trading Bridges is as part of deal to get my ideal starting PF.

Lonzo getting back on the floor was a feel-good story, but he really wasn’t all that productive. That seems like a fair trade to me, to be honest.

Lonzo has Allan Houston decline written all over him. I don’t think he will help Cleveland very much, other than as a contract that either expires or can be dumped as salary-filler in a mid-season trade.

Sounds like the 2026 draft might be very deep…at least we can’t trade that pick yet!

Okoro was one of my draft misses. I really thought he’d be a good 3-and-D wing and would have taken him had Hali been off the board (though he was taken at 5 I think).

Of course, Hali wasn’t off the board and we still didn’t take him….

What position would you like to fill by trading Mikal?

I want Leon to win a trade.

IMO, it doesn’t make sense to get 2 inferior players just to add depth.

How about we trade Mikal for one superior player, and add depth, and add picks? (Like when Atlanta traded Murray for Daniels, Nance, and two firsts.)

Or how about we just trade Josh Hart for a PF who is much better than Josh Hart? (Like when Boston traded Smart for KP.)

Almost every champion I can think of fleeced someone along the way. I want Leon to join the club of GMs who ripped someone off.

I’m expecting to re-up with the Pacers next season. But if they trade Bennedict to the Hawks, then it’s on.

donnie desperately trying to avoid introspecting why his basketball wayfaring has sojourned from the wisdom of insecurity to the pink pony:

https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZP8rWdK1S/

Still, lots of those guys had short careers. Bill Russell was done at 34. Willis at age 31. Oscar at 35. West at 35. The minutes load took a toll. Most of the guys on the career minutes leaderboard are from well past Wilt’s day. If anything, weight training might have helped those guys.

Russell and Wilt were both 4th in MVP voting the year they retired so they could still play at a higher level than Chris Paul today.

Wilt jumped to San Diego of the ABA after the 73 season for $600,000 which was nice money in 73 , maybe $4,000,000 or so today, (but wasn’t allowed to play, only coach) but nothing like the 50,000,000 Lebron gets for hanging around today.

Bob Petit retired after his 11th season partially due to injury and partially due to the fact it was the first season he wasn’t first team all NBA. Finishing 2nd team all NBA was below his standards.

No one is going to argue modern nutrition, etc doesn’t extend careers. The working conditions help too. I remember in college flying home from Salt Lake to NYC for Christmas and being on a United flight where the last 5 rows of the coach section were the Utah Stars. Seeing Zelmo Beatty scrunched up in a coach seat was pretty funny.

I do , however believe the emphasis on vertical explosion has made modern players more prone to the plethora of non contact ACL and Achilles tears we see today.

How about we trade Mikal for one superior player, and add depth, and add picks? (Like when Atlanta traded Murray for Daniels, Nance, and two firsts.)

Daniels at the time of the trade was not seen as a superior player.

plus mikal could very likely be viewed as the inferior player

Ball really seems like the perfect Ty Jerome replacement.

Mikal has one year left on what is still a bargain $24M contract. Then you’re gonna have to pay him an amount that is going to make him rather unpalatable. Adjust your trade expectations accordingly.

Daniels at the time of the trade was not seen as a superior player.

Exactly. There is a player out there who is better than Mikal Bridges but just hasn’t gotten the minutes.

And there is a player out there who is better than Josh Hart but is in the last year of his contract that a team wants to trade bc they know he won’t resign.

Fleece someone like Brad Stephens always does. Be a top front office.

I hadn’t talked about this before but I have really been hoping that Rose can trade one of our players for a guy who’s always injured, misses the entire playoffs his first season here, misses most of his second season here and when he does play he plays like shit, and then has to be salary dumped. Trading one of our better players for a guy like that would really go a long way to showing that Rose knows what he’s doing.

Good Macri interview 🤭

https://bsky.app/profile/knickfilmskool.bsky.social/post/3lsojoj3ryg2s

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