Knicks Morning News (2024.10.01)

Nice to know I can already cross off one team from my list of potential contenders…

“Harden said the Clippers will figure out the best style of play to be successful but that it will have one key component.

“I am going to tell you one thing: It is definitely going to involve a lot of me,” Harden said.”

Some thoughts about yesterday’s thread.

1) About Alan bringing up that almost nobody in the media is thinking this is a win-win trade, i’d say we don’t need the media to validate a trade we think is a step forward for us. And it is. I’d also say that the Wolves aren’t trading Randle right away, they’re going to see how the team looks and i have to say that going from Conley + AntMan + SlowMo + KAT + Gobert to Conley + AntMan + DDV + Randle + Gobert is a clear upgrade. Even if KAT is the best of the 3, they now have a much more balanced starting lineup. Of course, this will only happen if Randle can get back to his level of play pre-injury.

2a) I don’t think the Hart to the bench is a good move, we should play our best lineup, and frankly who really cares about how strong the bench is? We’ve tasted this on the last two seasons, having a great bench surely makes you respectable and you’ll be top4 and go to the 2nd round, but then some strong lineup comes to play with us and what matters is how we can match against them. Some coaches effectively* play only 6 players when deep in the playoffs, so the bench is not what matters most when talking about going to the ECF and the Finals. But hey, if the guy starting in place of Hart is just to play a few minutes and have Hart change the pace of the game when he’s called up, i’m good with that too. I just don’t think we need to do that.

*they’ll have 8 guys in the box score, but 2 of them will play 6 mins or less, or something like that.

2b) Still about the bench, if the season shows it really is important to make an upgrade we can do what we did in 2012-13 and get some very good veterans to round out the rotation. That is a good strategy when you are a contender, not so much when you weren’t a contender and it only got you to a respectable level, like in 2012-13. Because that team was still needing improvements and we already had brought in all the pieces we could get.

3) Hart is hilarious! “Who’s Karl?” “Wow, we’ve got KAT?” 😀

4) It wasn’t easy but i’m going with Donnie for the comment of the thread:
[in reply to the Knicks being considered the best lineup in the NBA on paper]
“For the first time in decades he doesn’t mean toilet paper.” 😀

5) “It’s a business, not a fraternity. And I think Brunson understands that and will get over it pretty quickly, especially because it’s not like DDV landed in basketball hell like Detroit or Washington. The Wolves should be really good next year and he should be a big part of that!”
Yeah, i think Z-man nailed it, Brunson surely understands this and will be the same old Brunson pretty soon. And i’m starting to think the Wolves can get to the Finals with this new and more balanced lineup. It’d be great to have a Knicks-Wolves finals! 😉

And last, but not least… THIS COMMENT WAS BROUGHT TO YOU BY DRAFTKINGS !!! 😀

I remain fascinated by the idea that both coaches already have had mixed experiences with the player they traded for — Finch had Randle and used him quite effectively in New Orleans but ultimately the team decided to let him walk for nothing (on a reasonable contract no less) and of course Thibs has already had the KAT experience.

Anyway – we are extremely lean depth-wise now. Has anyone heard anything at all about Kevin McCullar health-wise? He seems like he could be a Thibs guy, was a 4 year college player, and solid all-around by all accounts.

I suppose he could also be traded as part of making the $ work.

“I am going to tell you one thing: It is definitely going to involve a lot of me,” Harden said.

Believing Harden is an important piece of your team at this stage of his career doesn’t look like the best strategy to win, i agree.
But the minute PG13 walked out the door, and add to that Kawhi being always injured, i think they weren’t contenders anymore.

cyber, I noticed yesterday that the two opening night games are Knicks-Celtics and Wolves-Lakers, so we get to see both teams right off the bat! Well I doubt that you’ll be staying up all night to watch! In Spain I was trying to follow the Mets and it was really weird to reckon with the 6 hr time difference, games were starting at 1:10AM and I found myself randomly waking up at 4 to check scores on Spanish ESPN. It gave me a special appreciation for you and our other overseas fans who often post during game threads!

I suppose he could also be traded as part of making the $ work.

Why would we send so little money away? When we have a problem filling the roster spots and will exactly need cheap players to fill it?

It gave me a special appreciation for you and our other overseas fans who often post during game threads!

I have it a bit easier, because in Portugal (and in the UK) we have “only” a 5h difference. Almost all europe (Max, Farfa, iserp, slovene_knick, …) have a 6h difference that makes it a little tougher. And the crown goes to KYN, because in Greece i think the difference is 7h and that is too much. I usually don’t watch the Knicks when out west, because i have a 8h difference, so i don’t know how he does it. 😉

I have very mixed feelings about Pete Rose. Having watched most of his career with hateful admiration, I think there’s a legitimate argument that he’s the best player of all time. I vividly remember the All-Star Ray Fosse play…when the game actually meant a shitload to players and fans. I also remember how he played well in on the infield grass at third base against Mickey Rivers and totally intimidated him.

His gambling, off-the-field boorishness, and irreverence are unforgivable, but the dude played the game with an unparalleled passion and never cheated the fans once in his remarkable 24 year career. Despite not being particularly athletic, he turned himself into an all-star at 5 different defensive positions. He was a fearsome sight at the plate, in the field, and on the bases. No player ever cared more about winning than he did.

There are HOFers who are way less deserving of being inducted than him. Hopefully he will get in posthumously.

In Spain I was trying to follow the Mets and it was really weird to reckon with the 6 hr time difference, games were starting at 1:10AM

How did it go in Spain, Z-man? Did you like it? I think it is a beautiful country, almost as beautiful as Portugal! 🤭 😉 🙂

cyber, my wife and I absolutely loved both Mallorca and Barcelona. I did not know going in that it was the annual Mercé celebration in Barcelona, and the whole city was set up with concerts and other celebratory events. Some folks bristled at the crowds of revelers but as a New Yorker they didn’t bother me at all. The Sagrada Familia was the most astonishing work of art I have ever seen, and Montserrat is a must-see as well. And Mallorca is literally paradise in September, perfect temperatures, bluest water I have ever seen, all kinds of beaches, astonishingly beautiful landscapes, quaint villages, excellent food, outstanding wine. I must also say that the women of Spain are quite beautiful! (Men too, but I digress…)

We are thinking about Portugal next fall, so be prepared!

Our much missed friend Fred Katz wrote a very interesting piece on The Athletic about extensions taking the place of free agency and the new CBA rules shrinking the FA market for many players, at least for the next two summers (for instance Tyus Jones and Gary Trent signed for the minumum this summer).

Julius is one of the extension-eligible players singled out, here’s the snippet for the non subscribers:

Julius Randle, Minnesota Timberwolves
Contract: $28.9 million in 2024-25, $30.9 million player option in 2025-26

Part of the reason the New York Knicks agreed to trade Randle for Karl-Anthony Towns was Randle’s contract situation. Extending Randle, who could sign for as much as $181 million over four years, would have undone the financial favor Brunson handed them this summer.

But with the Timberwolves, circumstances become even more complicated. That $181 million extension is now off the table — at least for the immediate future.

Because the Knicks are trading Randle, a deal that’s not yet official, he will become subject to the league’s extend-and-trade rules. He could still add years to his contract, but he won’t be able to tack on as many and they can’t be as lucrative as they would have been in New York.

The Knicks could have offered Randle a starting salary as large as 140 percent of $28.9 million, what he’s due to make in 2024-25, with 8 percent annual raises. But in the first six months after trading for Randle, the Wolves can offer a starting salary that’s only 120 percent of his 2024-25 number, can hand him only 5 percent annual raises and can’t offer the same length. Thus, the Wolves’ max extension offer to Randle would be $109 million over three years.

Six months after the trade, eligibility for that four-year, $181 million mammoth would return. If Minnesota disappoints, Randle could have lost his leverage by then. If the Wolves roar to the top of the Western Conference, maybe he’ll have put the pressure on them.

In the meantime, would three years and $109 million be enough to entice Randle, whose market may get squeezed next summer, when the Houston Rockets could be the only team seeking All-Star free agents? And would the Wolves, who have second-apron issues of their own, which is part of the reason they traded away Towns, commit long-term money to his replacement?

I think there’s a legitimate argument that he’s the best player of all time

???

I’d like to see that argument for the guy who is 66th all time in WAR (just as an example)…

The trade makes sense for both teams on its face, but I wonder if anything specific involving contract negotiations created more urgency. For example, did Randle balk at opting in without an extension, even suggesting that he might opt out and leave for nothing if his terms were not met?

Even if that “threat” was only theoretical, it certainly makes sense that Leon would actively shop him rather than deal with the uncertainty of how to either overpay him or replace him, either via trade at a weakened bargaining position, or after losing him via free agency and still being in taxpayer/first apron territory.

That Leon was able to escape that simmering situation at the cost of DDV while filling a gaping hole at C is at worst cleverly opportunistic and at best absolutely brilliant.

KAT is the kind of player that will maintain substantial market value, even on his max deal. Virtually every team in the NBA can use someone like him.

I keep wondering who will be left unprotected during the inevitable expansion draft. Could that have been a factor in trading DDV? With Brock Aller, who knows?

The trade makes sense for both teams on its face, but I wonder if anything specific involving contract negotiations created more urgency. For example, did Randle balk at opting in without an extension, even suggesting that he might opt out and leave for nothing if his terms were not met?

Even if that “threat” was only theoretical, it certainly makes sense that Leon would actively shop him rather than deal with the uncertainty of how to either overpay him or replace him, either via trade at a weakened bargaining position, or after losing him via free agency and still being in taxpayer/first apron territory.

That Leon was able to escape that simmering situation at the cost of DDV while filling a gaping hole at C is at worst cleverly opportunistic and at best absolutely brilliant.

KAT is the kind of player that will maintain substantial market value, even on his max deal. Virtually every team in the NBA can use someone like him.

I keep wondering who will be left unprotected during the inevitable expansion draft. Could that have been a factor in trading DDV? With Brock Aller, who knows?

All of this.

Surely Randle’s contract status had a big influence on this trade. If Leon has shown one thing, he puts a valuation on a player and sticks to it. He wanted Donovan Mitchell, but wouldn’t exceed a certain price point. He obviously liked IQ but not so much at >30M.

And certainly the notion of consolidating reduces the risk of losing a capable player/asset in expansion. (which never entered my mind during this discussion.)

“???

I’d like to see that argument for the guy who is 66th all time in WAR (just as an example)…”

LOL It’s hyperbole for sure, but to be fair a lot of the guys above him were pitchers and sluggers, or compilers that were nowhere near as impactful on winning. If picking players in their respective primes for a hypothetical world series team, he’d be near the top of my list, as would Derek Jeter, who is 99th in WAR. Even with his crazy-good stats (was either first or second in total hits 12 times and in times on base 13 times) so much of what made him great were things that didn’t show up in the box score.

For my money, Willie Mays was the greatest position player of my lifetime, and Bob Gibson was the greatest pitcher. But Rose is way up there at the top.

If Rose isn’t a compiler I don’t know who is.

Rose isn’t one of the best players of all time.

Rose played seven seasons at the tail end of his career where he was no longer any good. He compiled 80 WAR in his career but about 78 of that came from 1963-1979. If he retired in 1980 instead of chasing the hit record he’d still have been top 50 all time in WAR, alongside a lot of players who we recognize as great players.

Pete Rose was absolutely a great player. Best of all time is ludicrous though. I mean, Rickey Henderson was the same kind of player and much much better, leaving sluggers and pitchers out of it. And Ted Williams of course….

My dad, a lifelong Yankees fan, who grew up at Yankee Stadium watching Mantle, Yogi et al play the Mayses and Aarons of the league, says that Ohtani is the greatest baseball player he’s ever witnessed and it’s not even close. (He doesn’t know what WAR is I’m sure, he’s a 78 year old eye-tester. But when cross-comparing generations of players, old geezers shouldn’t be completely ignored:)

LOL It’s hyperbole for sure, but to be fair a lot of the guys above him were pitchers and sluggers, or compilers that were nowhere near as impactful on winning.

Aren’t pitchers and sluggers also classified as baseball players. Rose wasn’t even the best player on all thoses Cincinatti teams (Joe Morgan). He might have been 4th impactful (behind Morgan, Bench and Perez) on that team.

You can’t mention Rose in the same sentence with Mays, Musial, Frank Robinson, Aaron, Bonds, Ted Williams, Mantle etc forgetting about all the great pitchers and old timers like Ruth, Gehrig, Cobb without starting a laugh track.

The all-time single season WAR leaders are a bunch of Babe Ruth seasons, followed by some steroid-era Barry Bonds seasons, then a few Ted Williams/Mickey Mantle seasons, a Roger’s Hornsby season, a Honus Wagner season and a Ty Cobb season. Then there’s Aaron Judge 2024.

Willie Mays never had a season where he compiled as much WAR as Aaron Judge did this year.

Seems like it should pretty obviously be Ohtani. How do people still have this debate?

Surely Randle’s contract status had a big influence on this trade.

I would swim further up stream on this one.

Randle had one foot out the door when Leon paid OG. He was 100% getting traded when Leon took in Mikal and pre-negotiated his extension. He didn’t drop 5 picks + swaps for a 2yr rental.

Rosas set the table during first week of July and Randle/KAT trade was only a matter of time. Only reason it didn’t happen earlier this summer was because Leon tried to get them to take Mitch and Deuce instead of DDV. Once they included Donte, Minnesotta leaned in and trade started to come together.

All those other reports/rumors that Knicks have interests in, – insert your garden variety mediocre & flawed center, this whole time were typical Leon misdirection plays.

This front office’s best attribute is that they negoatiate in good faith and move in silence.

Again, I would put Rose in the Derek Jeter class of player, meaning a guy whose impact on winning went far beyond his stats.

I would definitely induct Rose into the Hall of Very Good

Has anyone heard anything at all about Kevin McCullar health-wise?

Only thing I’ve seen is they gave him RJ’s number

As to Willie Mays, he may have been the best offensive and defensive player of his era, and played in two of the most challenging parks to play in. He was the quintessential 5-tool player. Also considered to be incredibly clutch both at the plate, in the field, and on the bases, kind of a savant of the game with the athletic talent to match.

What Ohtani is doing is fantastic. But Mays led the league in WAR 10 times and in 7 of those seasons had a higher WAR than Ohtani had this year. And there’s no way that WAR accurately factored in Mays’ impact on defense at a critical position. He played over 150 games a season for 13 straight seasons, and then played in 130+ games in 4 of the next 5 years.

“I would definitely induct Rose into the Hall of Very Good”

Since it’s called the Hall of Fame, and since Rose is kinda famous…maybe he belongs?

Now that every league has jumped into bed with sportsbooks, Rose’s lifetime ban feels pretty arbitrary. He’s a deserving hall of famer on the merits, but hardly an all-time great.

I do wish Ichiro came over when he was younger so he could’ve taken the all-time hits record–Ichiro is definitely baseball’s “hit king.”

Willie Mays delivered sustained excellence over a very long period of time. It’s no slight on Mays to say that he never had a season where he accumulated as much WAR as Judge did this year, that was meant to show how truly brilliant Judge’s 2024 was. If you throw out Barry Bonds’ steroid seasons, Aaron Judge just had the best single season performance in MLB in 68 years. Mickey Mantle’s triple crown season in 1956 was the last time a non-juiced-Bonds player racked up more than 11.1 WAR.

Obviously WAR is just one metric and it probably doesn’t do a flawless job of allocating defensive value to mid-20th century players, but that was one hell of a season.

Willie Mays never had a season where he compiled as much WAR as Aaron Judge did this year.

Fan graphs and BB ref don’t calculate WAR the same way (the difference being the defensive component where Mays excelled).

According to fangraphs Mays had 7 seasons WAR 9 or greater and Judge 2. According to BB Ref Mays had nine years WAR at or above 9 and Judge 2.

Call me in a decade if you want to compare players.

What Ohtani is doing is fantastic. But Mays led the league in WAR 10 times and in 7 of those seasons had a higher WAR than Ohtani had this year.

Mays was a better hitter than Ohtani but only sometimes, isn’t terribly convincing.

“Mays was a better hitter than Ohtani but only sometimes, isn’t terribly convincing.”

Huh?

Judge is not juiced, but Yankee Stadium is.

WAR makes park adjustments. Also Judge had an insane 1.106 OPS on the road.

A fantastic story about KAT’s tenure in Minnesota:

https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/5802060/2024/10/01/karl-anthony-towns-impact-timberwolves-trade/?source=emp_shared_article

“Per Shams, the Knicks offered Julius Randle and Mitchell Robinson for KAT earlier this summer, but the Wolves rejected that offer.

Minnesota also rejected just Randle and DiVincenzo. Minny finally accepted the offer of Randle, DDV and a future first”

https://x.com/tommybeer/status/1841159682905534968?s=46&t=mhUnoqe17aQ9qM7P-jrKqA

Fun fact: over the last 3 years, Yankee Stadium has an exactly league average park factor per Statcast.

Right field gets a lot of attention and rightfully (lol) so, but there are areas like Death Valley in left-center that suppress runs too.

Thanks Alan,
it looks like we lost a good guy, very involved in the community, but we found another one.

Was Francisco Lindor’s HR in the 9th inning the most impactful hit in Mets history? That one at bat increased the Mets’ odds of winning the World Series by 2%.

There are so many factors that make it impossible to compare players across eras….the baseball itself, bats, pitch types, strategies, parks, technology (radar gun, swing mechanics analysis, biomechanics, nutrition analysis, muscle recovery analysis, etc.), impact of DH, travel amenities, analytics, rules changes, etc…

Judge’s season surely transcends all historic differences. No park in any era could contain him. That said, I firmly believe that he wouldn’t be hitting as many HRs if he played his home games in Candlestick Park. But even with 52 and 48 instead of 62 and 58, his seasons would still be historic. The dude is a monster. So is Ohtani.

The most impactful HR in Mets history in my book was Dykstra’s HR in Game 3 of the NLCS. That team was heavily favored to win it all, and if they lose that game, they almost certainly lose that series.

Sadly, there’s a much longer list of impactful HRs against them.

The trade makes sense for both teams on its face, but I wonder if anything specific involving contract negotiations created more urgency.

I’m sure it’s not just one thing, but a slew of reasons which made this trade make sense for Leon:

1. About Dante.
a. There was a glut of shooting guards: Mikal, Hart, Deuce, Dante & Dadiet. And he was going to get squeezed for playing time.
b. He costs $12M as a backup and the Knicks just signed McBride for $4.3M – a better bargain. Deuce fills that same roll.
c. He was a Nova boy but why wasn’t he on the “Roommates” podcast (Jalen Brunson and Josh Hart are the hosts along with some other dude from Nova)? Rumors were that he wasn’t that into the “Nova Knicks” thing.

2. About Julius.
a. He’s hurt and the shoulder might never be the same. It takes at least year for a shoulder to heal. He’ll play but I wouldn’t draft him in a fantasy league.
b. The Knicks desperately needed a starting center and they had other power forward candidates.
c. When the Knicks made Jalen Brunson the team captain it was a clear signal that something was happening. Wouldn’t you give it to the most senior 3-time all-star, 2-time all-NBA player?
d. Next season Randle has a player option and was sure to decline and demand big bucks. Although expensive, KAT is signed for 3 more years.

3. About KAT.
a. Center – Even healthy, Mitch is not an NBA starting center. It’s 4-on-5 basketball. But he’s an elite rebounder. So is KAT. And who do you want on the line with the game on the line? Mitch or KAT? We now have a 35 mpg all-star center.
b. Defense – Many people think the offense will be great but the defense is going to be formidable. Randle was only an average defender. KAT is a good defender and can guard the perimete but he’s also a rim protector, with OG and Bridges who are both defensive player of the year candidates guarding the perimeter, the defense will be stifling.
c. Spacing – KAT is an elite 3 point shooter (19th in the league 41.6%). 4 of the 5 Knick starters are in the top-100 from 3pt. This opens up the lane for cutters.
d. Pick-n-roll/Pick-n-pop – KAT gives the Knicks dangerous offensive flexibility. He and Brunson will have a field day.
e. Rotation – Thibs likes to play a short rotation – 8 or 9 players. Before the trade, the Knicks had 11 or 12 players that deserved minutes. KAT for Julius and DDV cuts that list down and gives the rookies an opportunity. Kolek, Dadiet, McCuller and Hukporti could all see some time this season. Kokek and Dadiet have signed regular contracts.

4. Also, the trade sets the Knicks up for this season and next. A breakdown of the current status of the 2025 Knicks. :
• Signed starters: Brunson (1), Mikal (2), Hart (3), OG (4), KAT (5)
• Signed bench: Kolek(1), Deuce(2), Dadiet(3), Mitch(5),
• UFAs: Payne(1), Shamet(2), Achiuwa(4), Sims(5),
• RFAs: McCullar(2), Toppin(4), Hukporti (5),
The number in parentheses is their primary position. See how this team is built to go forward? The Knicks only have Washington’s 1-10 protected pick next year plus two 2nd round picks.

So much for Mook 2.0. Per Edwards:

“Marcus Morris opted against re-joining Knicks on a camp deal, per sources, after he was waived due to financial implications of the Karl-Anthony Towns trade. Morris became unlikely to make the Knicks roster. He is now a free agent and aiming to join a team before the NBA season.”

Judge’s season surely transcends all historic differences. No park in any era could contain him. That said, I firmly believe that he wouldn’t be hitting as many HRs if he played his home games in Candlestick Park. But even with 52 and 48 instead of 62 and 58, his seasons would still be historic. The dude is a monster. So is Ohtani.

I’m surprised you didn’t mention Death Valley, Yankee Stadium was the worst park in history for right handed power hitters! While the fences moved back and forth over the years, left center field was 500 (1923), 490 (1924), 457 (1937), 430 (1976), 411 (1985), 399 (1988). So up to 1975 it was at least 457 and now it’s under 400. Mickey Mantle might have had 800 homers in this version of the stadium and Joe DiMaggio would be thought of even more glowingly.

As something of an amateur shit-stirrer myself, I seem to remember someone on this board stating with much ferocity that there was no way Randle would make less than roughly $40 mil AAV with his next contract. How are we feeling about that now that he’s at least temporarily in Minnesota?

Most impactful hit in Met’s history( call by Vin Scully)?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fH7iDL7f3-M

Hah! “Much ferocity” was actually just a prediction. Any ferocity you sensed was due to another poster who disputed my prediction refusing to go on the record with his own. Are you bold enough to be willing to? If not, you really shouldn’t engage in stirring shit. If yes, kindly state for the record what you think the AAV of his next contract will be. As for me, I’ll stick with my prediction.

Again, I feel like this is the most legitimate chance for us to win a championship since the 90s…but I’m still feeling the emotional hangover. January 2024 is ever going to be our “Rosebud.”

Extending Randle, who could sign for as much as $181 million over four years, would have undone the financial favor Brunson handed them this summer.

But the whole reason Brunson did the favor was so they could keep the team together.

Not sure where you got that from…

This Pete Rose discussion should be noted as maybe the best example of how modernity has made us smarter and stupider at the same time.

1975 World Series MVP
1973 NL MVP
17X All-Star
3X World Series Champ
3X NL Batting Title
2X Gold Glove
4,256 Hits (1st MLB History)
746 Doubles (2nd MLB History)
2,165 Runs (6th MLB History)
5,752 Total Bases (9th MLB History)
1,566 Walks (14th MLB History)
135 Triples
160 Home Runs
1,314 RBI
198 Stolen Bases

But…you know…WAR and all that.

As a gambler, I’m obviously extremely biased. But I’m going to defend Pete Rose’s gambing to a certain point.

IMO, athletes should be allowed to bet on any sport they want including their own sport UNLESS they are in some way a participant in that specific event (player, coach, ref etc..) As long as you are not a participant, your bets create no incentive for you to either try harder in the short term at the expense of the long term or to dump a game if you bet against yourself.

I have a license to own horses. I don’t own any right now, but when I do I am free to bet whatever I want. My bets have no impact on races I am not involved in and rightfully so no one cares what I do.

I don’t care if Rose bet on other baseball games and I certainly don’t care if he bet on other sports. There’s only an issue if he bet on Reds games and even there the real problem is betting against them not on them. Unless they have proof he bet on Reds games IMO all should have been forgiven, especially in light of how sports gambling is now legal and widespread.

This Pete Rose discussion should be noted as maybe the best example of how modernity has made us smarter and stupider at the same time.

1975 World Series MVP
1973 NL MVP
17X All-Star
3X World Series Champ
3X NL Batting Title
2X Gold Glove
4,256 Hits (1st MLB History)
746 Doubles (2nd MLB History)
2,165 Runs (6th MLB History)
5,752 Total Bases (9th MLB History)
1,566 Walks (14th MLB History)
135 Triples
160 Home Runs
1,314 RBI
198 Stolen Bases

But…you know…WAR and all that.

List those same numbers for Mays, Aaron, Ruth, Gehrig, Williams, Cobb Musial, Robinson, etc and Rose’s look downright puny. No one is saying Rose wasn’t a great player and the greatest compiler…. just that he isn’t close to the best ever.

And, of course Rose played his entire career on rock hard astroturf which certainly juices his BA and XBHs. For your life with a runner on second and 2 outs, do you want Rose, Boggs or Tony Gwynn at the plate (contemporary non power hitters?)

It’s a complete joke he’s not in the HOF

Not sure where you got that from…

From Jalen Brunson.

”It’s kinda simple. I want to be here. I want to show that actions speak louder than just talking about stuff. I want this team to be together for a long time.”

https://syndication.bleacherreport.com/amp/10132116-jalen-brunson-on-knicks-contract-simple-actions-speak-louder-than-just-talking.amp.html

Unless they have proof he bet on Reds games

Dude, that was exactly the point. He did.

I want this team to be together for a long time.

Okay. My bad.

“For your life with a runner on second and 2 outs, do you want Rose, Boggs or Tony Gwynn at the plate?”

Rose by a country mile. Or Jeter.

“List those same numbers for Mays, Aaron, Ruth, Gehrig, Williams, Cobb Musial, Robinson, etc and Rose’s look downright puny.”

Rose has the most hits and got on base more than any of them, and in most cases, by a wide margin. What was the mantra of Moneyball? “He gets on base.”

I have a license to own horses. I don’t own any right now, but when I do I am free to bet whatever I want.

That’s not exactly true, Strat. In Ny you aren’t allowed to use your own horse in exotics, because you can influence who finishes second or third in the race. It isn’t enforced, but its on the books…..

Pete Rose ranks #38 all time in WAR among position players, and those numbers aren’t inflated by the 0 WAR seasons he was putting up at the end of his career when he probably should have retired. That seems like a pretty accurate reflection of his value as a player to me.

Brooks Robinson, Joe DiMaggio, George Brett, Jeff Bagwell, Charlie Gehringer, Johnny Bench, Ken Griffey Jr, Roberto Clemente and Chipper Jones are some players who rank near him.

Randle’s next contract will be fascinating. I wouldn’t be surprised if he picks up his player option even without an extension, it’s far from clear there’s more than $31M out there for him in 2025-2026. The Wolves are almost definitely not giving him his max when he’s eligible, that would basically defeat the purpose of their intentional downgrade.

I’m glad he’s gotten paid a hell of a lot already because he may well be, fairly or unfairly, pigeonholed as a “floor raiser” and get squeezed in the age of the aprons.

Much as I like the guy, I’m much more comfortable tying our fate to a dead-eye shooter like KAT who has proven he can be a part of deep playoff runs.

Rose has the most hits and got on base more than any of them, and in most cases, by a wide margin. What was the mantra of Moneyball? “He gets on base.”

Wait, what?

CAREER ON-BASE PERCENTAGE
Mays .384
Aaron .374
Ruth .474
Gehrig .447
Musial .417
Cobb .433
Williams .482
Robinson .389

Rose .375

So, other than beating Hank Aaron by one point, Pete Rose actually got on base less than all of those players.

But, you may say, he got on base more TOTAL times than those players. Which would be true. Now guess who made the most OUTS in MLB history? It’s Charlie Hustle by an enormous margin. He made 1,000 more outs than the guy in second place (Aaron).

Rose not only bet on the Reds, but did so as a manager. So he could, you know, make decisions that were suboptimal for the team and/or his players, but good for him personally. It was a shitty thing to do and he had no one to blame for himself for his lifetime ban.

Like I said before it admittedly seems a bit…weird, now that every other advertisement is an exhortation to gamble on sports as often as possible. But no one should confuse that with the conduct itself being excusable.

“Brooks Robinson, Joe DiMaggio, George Brett, Jeff Bagwell, Charlie Gehringer, Johnny Bench, Ken Griffey Jr, Roberto Clemente and Chipper Jones are some players who rank near him.”

That’s fair. But Rose had a distinction that is hard to describe. He got the most out of a very non-athletic package, and played with a ferociousness that none of those other players exhibited. The way he intimidated Mickey Rivers in the 1976 WS is unparalleled. The 44 game hitting streak is second longest to DiMaggio, who is also shafted by modern day analysis, as he was widely considered to be the best all-around player of his time, maybe of all time.

Rose by a country mile. Or Jeter.

I’ll be crying at your funeral 🙂

https://x.com/AaronGleeman/status/1040055761999605761

Z-man, not to wade into a discussion on baseball when our Knicks are actually worth talking about, but the idea you’d take Rose over Babe Ruth is hilarious. Never mind Teddy Baseball, Willie Mays, Lou Gehrig… “intimidation” isn’t terribly necessary when you destroy the other team because you keep hitting homers and extra-base hits. It’s similar to the “clutch” argument people have about basketball – it don’t matter if you’re clutch if the Babe has put the game out of reach, or if Boston has buried you in 3s.

I like how training camp has begun and Charlie Gehringer has been mentioned in this 70 post thread more than Tom Thibodeau.

So much for Mook 2.0. Per Edwards:

“Marcus Morris opted against re-joining Knicks on a camp deal, per sources, after he was waived due to financial implications of the Karl-Anthony Towns trade. Morris became unlikely to make the Knicks roster. He is now a free agent and aiming to join a team before the NBA season.”

I thought he was washed anyway. I’m skeptical anyone keeps him past training camp. Maybe he’ll get offered a midseason job after an injury somewhere.

It’s probably Shamet and either McCullar or Hukporti. I’d guess McCullar.

Darius Bazley, Danilo Gallinari, Robert Covington, Jae Crowder, Doug McDermott, James Bouknight, Dennis Smith Jr, and Markelle Fultz are still out there for those of you who enjoy pondering what scrapings are left at the bottom of the barrel.

Out of that bunch I guess I’d say Crowder might have the best chance of actually contributing.

Trevor Keels got waived by the TWolves last Thursday. A 2-way Knicks reunion? lol

The picture of Boggs weeping in the dugout after muddling his way to a .290 BA, .371 OBP, and .759 OPS…not to mention his career .273 average in 174 playoff ABs..would not make me very comfortable putting my life in his hands.

The picture of Boggs weeping in the dugout after muddling his way to a .290 BA, .371 OBP, and .759 OPS…not to mention his career .273 average in 174 playoff ABs..would not make me very comfortable putting my life in his hands.

Your boy (and mine , too!)Aaron Judge .211 in the playoffs – no bueno! Boggs is in the top 10 in the last 50 years with RISP so I’d be very comfy with him up whether he weeps or no. 🙂 And, of course Gwynn is the best (to no one’s surprise). The Gambler…. no where to be found…

“Z-man, not to wade into a discussion…”

, at least quote me accurately, I said “I think there’s a legitimate argument that he’s the best player of all time.” I did not say that I would make that argument or accept it. In fact, I said “LOL It’s hyperbole for sure…” I also expressed agreement with JK on the group of players he belonged with, most of whom had a singular greatness about them.

If you do choose to wade in on the discussion, at least have the courtesy to read it carefully before commenting.

You know who I’d really rather have than all of them is David Eckstein

He was short in stature but man did that guy have heart

Bob, as I said, I’d choose Jeter over all of them, and he’s even lower on the WAR list. And I hate the Yankees!

You know who I’d really rather have than all of them is David Eckstein

He was short in stature but man did that guy have heart

Exactly

Yeah, you got me, Pete Rose is just a glorified David Eckstein.

Too bad there haven’t been any interesting basketball developments of late so we’re stuck debating on some baseball player’s legacy.

There isn’t even a recently deceased basketball great we could be discussing instead or anything!

The Gambler…. no where to be found…

His train will get there eventually.

There isn’t even a recently deceased basketball great we could be discussing instead or anything!

Yeah, does no one else want to revisit Dikembe’s short but entertaining stint with the Knicks? I’d definitely put him behind DDV on a list of one-year Knicks, but I was happier to briefly have him on the team than a whole lot of guys who stuck around longer this century.

Good old fashioned game here…

My favorite image of Boggs was him riding on horseback around the Yankee Stadium outfield celebrating winning the 1996 World Series.

Shams today:

“They need to pay [Aaron Gordon], they know it, but there are some salary restrictions moving forward in the years to come, and if they can’t get there with an extension with him, you look into free agency next year with a player option, he’s going to be coveted by any team with cap space, so that is a worry for Denver right now before the start of the regular season,” Charania said.

Aaron Gordon watch is on!

His extension window closes in three weeks.

RIP John Amos, one of the most magnificent faces on television.

He was signed briefly with the Broncos and the Chiefs, so we can talk about his sports legacy, too (won a Golden Gloves, too…).

Hart + Deuce for Gordon works in the trade machine, Z-man.

That said, I’d really like Leon to stop making major trades for a while, so we can see what the heck this current roster looks like together.

Might as well go full into luxury cap Hell. That’s why we deal with Dolan.

“My favorite image of Boggs was him riding on horseback around the Yankee Stadium outfield celebrating winning the 1996 World Series.”

Nice of him to bail on the Sox to ride on the coattails of Jeter, Mariano, et. al. to a ring. He stunk in that series too, and stunk in his Yankees postseason career in general. I definitely remember hearing that from Yanks fans.

Well, Wade Boggs was 37 years old in his first year in the playoffs with the Yankees, and also played at ages 38 and 39.

Wade Boggs was a flat out better player than Pete Rose, was better at his peak and also provided more value over the course of his career, unless you really give some sort of massive outsized value to a tiny sample size of postseason at-bats (he’s no Eckstein) many of which were accumulated when Boggs was washed up, or to “intimidation” or whatever dumb intangible we’re pretending is worth thousands of outs.

Sure he was.

We should be taking a long look at starting deuce not trading him for Aaron Gordon

Wade Boggs was a much better hitter than Pete Rose, who would even bother trying to debate that?

Boggs also drew the pinch-hit bases loaded go ahead walk in the 10th inning of Game 4 vs Steve Avery which was a huge play in that series. He signed with the Yankees prior to the 1993 season and in 5 seasons covering ages 35-39 he hit .313 with a .396 OBP both higher than Rose’s career averages. Boggs for his career had a slash line of .328/.415/.443 which needless to say destroys Rose’s career slash line.

Yeah but Wade Boggs rode a horse and looked all wimpy that one time, while Pete Rose was a macho tough guy who would flare his nostrils at you and stuff

I mean I’m not trying to detract from how great a player Rose was. He played multiple positions and in his early days was a very good baserunner while Boggs wasn’t great defensively at 3B and was slow as shit as a baserunner even in his prime.

But Boggs was an incredible hitter, much better than Rose which isn’t exactly a controversial take.

Not a great start statistically for Severino, but just giving the Mets 6 innings today is real big.

RE gambling on the sport you play or manage, I’d think the spectre of someone getting in big time debt to a “bookie” or whatever is something every sport should avoid. So, no gambling on the professional sport you play. The old “integrity of the game” line and all.

Sorry, Pete, you did that to yourself, but RIP.

I haven’t followed baseball in a very long time, but one thing I remember is that Pete Rose got caught stealing like half the time he tried. Isn’t that the baseball equivalent of having a 1:1 assist-to-turnover ratio as a point guard?

Hart + Deuce for Gordon works in the trade machine

I’d offer Hart and the WAS picks (throw in some Brock Aller magic to make it work). Maybe even Hart & Precious.

But not Hart & Deuce.

There’s other versatile bigs in the sea.

Gordon is a worse 3pt shooter AND a worse rebounder than Hart! Yes, he’s 4 inches taller, but he might not even be as good a defender as Hart at this point.

I’d offer Hart and the WAS picks (throw in some Brock Aller magic to make it work). Maybe even Hart & Precious.

But not Hart & Deuce.

Hell… why don’t you just demand Jokic for that price 🙂 J Hart and Deuce… tooooo much!

You fellas realize Gordon is a pretty big piece of what Denver does, right?

Wait so Hubert complains about Hart cause he’s not a good 3pt shooter so he wants to trade him for a player who’s not only a worse 3pt and FT shooter but also has a worse TS% for his career? I get Gordon is bigger and is a more traditional PF but he also averages less rebs than Hart and is not a shot blocker despite his crazy athleticism.

I mean in theory sure I’d like to have Gordon but I’m not even certain hes a better basketball player than Hart.

My favorite image of Boggs was him riding on horseback around the Yankee Stadium outfield celebrating winning the 1996 World Series.

I whooped and cheered and cried with my 10-year-old pals when the Yanks won that chip, and I remember seeing him on the horse and thinking it was the coolest thing in the world

the only explanation I can give for it as an adult man who also likes a pint and wears a decent mustache is that he had just chugged a 12-pack between the final out and the victory lap and had just enough of a buzz that he needed assistance to leave the grounds

From ages 24-39, Boggs OPS+d 134, Rose 128. Give Rose a slight edge with the glove and in baserunning and it’s a quintessential wash. Maybe very, very small advantage Boggs.

Won’t be long before Eckstein replaces Hitler in Godwin’s Law, at least as it applies to KB ….

When people stop using the David Eckstein Fallacy (making arguments based on small sample sizes in baseball postseason) then we can safely retire Eckstein’s Razor

Damn, we had to give the Hornets two 2nds in this deal… they even got one from Minny.

EDIT: Ah but we’re also getting James Nnaji’s draft rights…

We got some 20 year old Nigerian center who averaged 8mpg for Barcelona from Charlotte in the deal, maybe our problems are solved

Someone needs to supply us with an in depth scouting report on James Nnaji.

He barely plays but apparently Barca have loaned him out to another team this season so i’m guessing he’ll get more time this year.

He was the 31st pick in the 2023 NBA draft! Turned 20yo in August.

1-0 Mets baby! This is fun.

side question

has Daniel Jones’s face always been that small and asymmetrical, or is it getting smaller from holding the ball too much and taking all those hits in the pocket

I love this Mets team so much.

There’s a lot of guys who shoot worse than Hart that I’d trade him for.

We’re a bit short, in case you haven’t noticed.

And it’s really a waste of OG if we’re going to use him to bang with the Siakims and Randles and Markkanens of the league, or to have him cover up Towns deficiencies. We’re paying him $40M to be the Terminator of Perimeter Ballhandlers. Let him do his job.

Didn’t realize the Brewers recent playoffs history was so bad, almost as horrible as the Twins.

Here are the agreed trade details, per sources.The trade call has not taken place yet.New York receives: Karl-Anthony Towns (from MIN) and the draft rights of James Nnaji (from Charlotte)Minnesota receives: Julius Randle (from NYK), Donte DiVincenzo (from NYK), Keita…— Bobby Marks (@BobbyMarks42) October 2, 2024

Huh, Nnaji was a guy some people liked during his draft. 31st pick in 2023. Pretty standard rim runner, has held his own in limited time in the Euroleague.

KAT as a Center once put up a season with a 7.8 BPM, I think his defensive efficiencies are being greatly exaggerated.

We got some 20 year old Nigerian center who averaged 8mpg for Barcelona from Charlotte in the deal, maybe our problems are solved

So that’s what Z-man was doing in Barcelona, now it all makes sense. 😀

We are thinking about Portugal next fall, so be prepared!

Now we’re talking! 😉

Keith Smith:

Multiple NBA and international sources told
@spotrac
that the Duane Washington Jr. sign-and-trade part of the Knicks-Timberwolves-Hornets deal took a LOT of creativity on the part of the NBA side, the FIBA side and on the side of Partizan.

Partizan has some huge Euroleague games coming up and didn’t want to be without Washington for those games. Timing of getting all of this done was key for Partizan to agree to release Washington to be a part of the deal.

Some truly incredible creativity on the part of the Knicks, Wolves and Hornets front offices to get this deal pushed through.

Aaron Gordon seems like the quintessential Jokic Fallacy, if we’re talking fallacies. Basically he slides around and dunks off of Joker’s brilliant passes. He doesn’t rebound (he’s 6’8″, 235 and averages 6 rebounds) and can’t shoot (.291 from three last year, career .323). He makes 68% of his free throws.

Can we puleeeze stop talking about him.

https://x.com/SamQuinnCBS/status/1841265589655879937?s=19

Dunno who this reporter is but I appreciate his praising of the Knicks front office manipulating the salary cap.

Times leading the league in hits:
Boggs 2
Rose 7

Times leading the league in Runs Scored:
Boggs 2
Rose 4

Times being in the top 10 of MVP voting:
Boggs 4 (no wins)
Rose 11 (1 win)

Boy those voters were sure dumb back then to not understand Boggs’ greatness and how overrated Rose was! Musta been fooled by the flared nostrils.

BTW if you throw out Rose’s years after age 40, his total bases per 162 games was roughly equivalent to Boggs even though he made a few more outs.

Rose was a much better all-around player and was unquestionably a better leader and more clutch player. The closest comparison I saw over the years is Derek Jeter, and I don’t know anyone who would rather have had Boggs than Jeter.

BTW Rose was the 1975 WS MVP on a team with Johnny Bench and Joe Morgan. Just lucky, I guess.

Not a great start statistically for Severino, but just giving the Mets 6 innings today is real big.

He only did that once for the Yankees in 10 postseason starts! He now has as many postseason wins for the Mets as he did in pinstripes.

Aaron Gordon seems like the quintessential Jokic Fallacy, if we’re talking fallacies. Basically he slides around and dunks off of Joker’s brilliant passes. He doesn’t rebound (he’s 6’8″, 235 and averages 6 rebounds) and can’t shoot (.291 from three last year, career .323). He makes 68% of his free throws.

Can we puleeeze stop talking about him.

Tell us you know nothing about Aaron Gordon without saying you know nothing about Aaron Gordon.

I wonder what the Nets players feel when they see what the crowds at Barclay’s are like for Libs games

Wade Boggs has a 91 career WAR, Rose finished with 79 career WAR. Also had a career 131 OPS+ compared to 118 for Rose.

Both great HOF players but Boggs is being criminally underrated by Z-Man.

https://x.com/kevinoconnornba/status/1841275874911338842?s=46&t=mhUnoqe17aQ9qM7P-jrKqA

Wade Boggs didn’t lead the league in hits that many times because he was busy walking 100+ times per year. Kinda hard to rack up a lot of hits when you’re walking in 15% of your plate appearances. Boggs led the league in on-base percentage six times. Rose twice.

Who needs Aaron Gordon when we now have James Nnaji.

Any chance we can buyout Nnaji and use the 2nd Rd exception on him as the 14th man?

We may need to.

https://x.com/kevinoconnornba/status/1841275874911338842?s=46&t=mhUnoqe17aQ9qM7P-jrKqA

Sounds like a young Mitch.

Hubert, please enlighten me! I mean, I like Aaron Gordon the fella, he seems nice and all. And, you know, he’s tallish, although he doesn’t play tall (except for that dunking thing). So what am I missing? Clearly you know secret Aaron Gordon things. Don’t keep them to yourself.

Honestly, it’s pretty amazing what the front office has been able to do with this trade. I really didn’t want to trade those guys but we definitely have a great front office now.

Sab is on a god damn MISSION

“Wade Boggs has a 91 career WAR, Rose finished with 79 career WAR. Also had a career 131 OPS+ compared to 118 for Rose.

Both great HOF players but Boggs is being criminally underrated by Z-Man.”

BBA, do you think that Boggs was also better than Derek Jeter? Just wanna hear you say it. Because (other than the David Eckstein bullshit stats Jeter compiled in playoff games) Boggs also has way more career WAR than Jeter, and so does Rose…and Boggs has a way higher OPS+ than Jeter, who is very similar to Rose and below him if you throw out Roses post 40yo years. Go ahead, say it! Boggs was better than Jeter!

Vecenie’s draft profile on Nnaji:

https://x.com/Sam_Vecenie/status/1841278492358676845?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet

Derek Jeter was not as good a player as Wade Boggs. He gave some of his offensive value back by being a below average defensive shortstop.

Francisco Lindor is a better player than Derek Jeter was.

Damn, we had to give the Hornets two 2nds in this deal… they even got one from Minny.

Like Henry Clay said, the best trade is one where no one ends up happy.

Aaron Gordon seems like the quintessential Jokic Fallacy,

Yep… he was the guy who anchored a championship defense starring other defensive stalwarts like Michael Porter, Jammal Murray and Jokic!

Yeah, Derek Jeter didn’t walk as much as Boggs either. What a dummy!

I might be the biggest Jeter fan on the planet and I can admit that yes Boggs was a better hitter than Jeter.

Jeter was an excellent baserunner but we all know about his defensive reputation although certainly early in his career I never even considered it an issue, same with Bernie Williams.

When the Yankees signed Boggs he was coming off the worst season of his career but 12yo me was super excited about the move and Boggs was great as a Yankee. He was a big reason they started turning the corner in 1993 along with signing Jimmy Key and obviously the trade for Paul O’Neil. As a Yankees fan I’ll never speak a bad word about Boggs and will always appreciate his years as a Yankee although I’m still pissed he sat out the final few games of the 1986 season making it difficult for Mattingly to pass him for the batting title which Boggs won 5 times.

Times leading the league in hits:
Boggs 2
Rose 7

Times leading the league in Runs Scored:
Boggs 2
Rose 4

Times being in the top 10 of MVP voting:
Boggs 4 (no wins)
Rose 11 (1 win)

In this thread we learn the guy with the better BA, OB% and Slugging% who plays on grass is a worse hitter than the guy who plays on fuzzy concrete because he has 5,000 more ABs.

Didn’t the Nuggets have one of the worst Defensive ratings of recent NBA champions? They won it all because like Boston they had an incredibly fortunate playoffs path and had Jokic in charge of one of the best offenses in the NBA.

This Liberty team is the most fun team that has played in Barclays.

he was the guy who anchored a championship defense starring other defensive stalwarts like Michael Porter, Jammal Murray and Jokic!

So he effectively guarded Karl-Anthony Towns, Kevin Durant, LeBron James, and Jimmy Butler while the Nuggets posted the 3rd best DRtg in the postseason. I’m sure Josh Hart could do that, too.

PS – I understand, Bob, that the Nuggets may not do that deal. But we’re not in position to pay sticker price. Eventually we need to make one of those Celtics-style trades, and I’m trying to take advantage of their financial hardship. If they don’t want to, so be it. We can afford to pass.

Aaron Gordon was very uninspiring in Orlando. He seems like a really cool guy, and his ceiling was high, so I followed him pretty closely back then. But he was kind of an RJ Barrett there: I’m glad he found a perfect place for himself. And I’m sure he’d contribute positively in NY if he came to this current team, but Hart is an even cooler guy and I like his game more:)

Also, re: Willie Mays, he faced on and off field racial vitriol as one of the early integrators of baseball that Pete Rose, Babe Ruth, Ted Williams, Mickey Mantle, Wade Boggs, Derek Jeter, and whoever this Judge guy is didn’t. Does WAR take that into account?

Yeah, Aaron Gordon rocks the career -0.3 DBPM. Which, if I understand that “stats” thing correctly, means he’s below an average NBA player on defense. Anchor might actually be the right word. He did play with the guy who led the league in DBPM the last three years, but you do Aaron Gordon!

Let’s see, Josh Hart gets more rebounds, is a better three-point shooter, a better foul shooter, and a better defender (1.4 DBPM). Also gets more assists and steals. So let’s trade him and another key player for Aaron Gordon!

I’m starting to be convinced. You do good work.

A more recent Nnaji scouting report based on this disappointing last season in Barcelona: https://www.si.com/nba/hornets/news/checking-in-on-james-nnajis-development

I’m surprised these haven’t gotten more play…

KAT & Embiid have some violent history:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zRl3k4P4Gok

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5630jF7vaiM

There’s a Towns dunk on Embiid in that second vid that would make MSG lose its shit.

Knicks Sixers gonna be real fun.

Damn KAT even punked him on twitter:

https://x.com/KarlTowns/status/1189780305349160960

The way this thread is making me reminisce about the glory days of Fire Joe Morgan has made it all worthwhile….

PS – I understand, Bob, that the Nuggets may not do that deal. But we’re not in position to pay sticker price. Eventually we need to make one of those Celtics-style trades, and I’m trying to take advantage of their financial hardship. If they don’t want to, so be it. We can afford to pass.

I didn’t bring this fake trade up, but IMO Denver never swaps him for Josh Hart.

We also get to throw the KAT/Butler history into Knicks/Heat. Juicy.

As long as Embiid isn’t yanking legs it’s cool.

“So that’s what Z-man was doing in Barcelona, now it all makes sense. 😀”

Shhhh…my wife thinks I was posting on Facebook!

Two guys who were thought to be too soft to be a primary cog on a champion were Dirk Nowitski and Elvin Hayes. Yet Jason Kidd and Wes Unseld, plus a bunch of other high-character and effective role players helped those guys get over the top. I think that Jalen and the gang can help KAT become his best self, and to accept Thibs’ style of coaching.

Two guys who were thought to be too soft to be a primary cog on a champion were Dirk Nowitski and Elvin Hayes.

David Robinson as well. It helped having Tim Duncan come along.

One comment beyond the obvious in the Mets’ win…Stanek’s stuff is really filthy.

Okay, so with the deal done, we have the following players under big league contracts: Brunson, KAT, OG, Bridges, Hart, Mitch, Deuce, Precious, Kolek, Payne, Sims, Dadiet. We have Toppin, Hukporti, and McCullar signed to two-way deals. We have Shamet signed to an Exhibit 9 contract. By all accounts, we are going to sign Shamet to a minimum deal, and promote either McCullar or Hukporti to a real contract. Thats the roster. No financial wiggle room for a 15th guy. In-season acquisitions will be extremely tricky, because we have to match salary exactly and can’t pull off another Aller maneuver where we give contracts to scrub free agents. So this is our team for a minute, it seems like.

I have to say I like the deal with Charlotte. We did give up two seconds, but we got Nnaji back, and he is the equivalent of a nice second round draft and stash. He was originally drafted number thirty one, which is certainly better than either second round pick we gave up. So net we gave up one pretty bad second round pick.

Also, I suspect that Charlie Brown, Duane Washington Jr. and Daquan Jeffries will all be in Charlotte’s training camp. Why wouldn’t Charlotte want to see what they can do? They will have a chance to impress and make the team and they all now receive full NBA more than minimum salaries, so this is great for them.

Alan, are we now definitely over the 2nd apron? Spotrac seems to think not…

From what I’ve read the Knicks if they want can remain below the 2nd apron until 2026-27 season.

Putting Tyson Chandler next to Dirk made the biggest difference. Minnesota thought that’s what KAT needed, too.

KAT is not soft. That’s a dumb narrative. But guys like him & Dirk & Elvin Hayes & David Robinson all need a big next to them to carry some of the water. It’s way too hard to dominate on offense and be the only big on defense.

I expect Towns to be great but I really don’t think surrounding him with three guards and OG is the right formula.

I think it’s a terrible formula for OG, too. Power forward guarding Julius Randle, Chet Holmgren, Pascal Siakim? That’s not why we’re paying him $40M.

If Mitch comes back healthy and we can just switch between Mitch and Hart depending on the matchup that’s one thing but I don’t get the sense Mitch is long for here.

So I guess you can send out inflated small salaries and you can also send out the cash to pay for them? Strange loophole.

I agree, Z-man. I’m not sure the NBA will be happy about this. But, on the other hand, I don’t like the rule about having to send out more salary than you take back either. This got around that rule, so I’m ok with it. There are so many team affected by this that the rule makes normal trades very difficult. I think if you are under the second apron and stay under after the trade, that should be enough.

Trying to figure out whether or not James Nnaji is related to the Nuggets’ Zeke Nnaji. Google seems to be all “we don’t know, man” on this important issue.

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