[CBS Sports] – Mon, 09 Sep 2024 16:36:25 GMT
- Knicks’ Josh Hart eggs on ‘f— Embiid’ chants from fans during podcast with Jalen Brunson in Central Park
- Villanovas Jalen Brunson and Josh Hart take Roommates Show to Central Park, flex transformation of Knicks
- On N.B.A. Player Podcasts, Theres the Star and Then the Other Guy
- Roommates Show Block Party draws thousands
- New York Knicks’ Josh Hart Does Good By Fan
[CBS Sports] – Tue, 10 Sep 2024 02:53:00 GMT
Knicks’ James Dolan won’t support NBA’s 2024-25 operating budget, per report
[Hoops Hype] – Mon, 09 Sep 2024 18:37:04 GMT
Stephon Marbury: Jalen Brunson didnt pass up anything with the Knicks
[sny.tv] – Mon, 09 Sep 2024 14:30:42 GMT
- How good can Knicks be defensively during 2024-25 NBA season?
- Mikal Bridges and OG Anunoby defensively, going small, center concerns and more – The Athletic
- 3 bold predictions for the Knicks in the 2024-25 season
- Why Knicks Fans Think They’re the Biggest Threat to the Celtics (w/ DJ Ace of Knicks Film School)
- Predicting the 2024-25 Knicks Opening Night rotation
[Nets Daily] – Mon, 09 Sep 2024 17:52:18 GMT
- Mikal Bridges salutes Brooklyn Nets in latest New York Knicks podcast
- 30 Teams in 30 Days: Addition of Mikal Bridges strengthens Knicks’ core
- Mikal Bridges Shares Excitement With Knicks Fans At Central Park Event
- Mikal Bridges cant wait to start season with psycho Knicks
- Knicks’ star acquisition has the ‘itch’ to dominate with new team
[Empire Sports Media] – Mon, 09 Sep 2024 19:06:59 GMT
- Knicks reportedly eyeing quality center option from Portland via trade
- Windhorst: Blazers Robert Williams III is Very Tradable
- Knicks expected to ‘monitor’ trade for former All-Defensive center
- Grade the mock trade: Grizzlies make risky move for injury prone big man
- Trail Blazers could be open to trading former Celtics big man
67 replies on “Knicks Morning News (2024.09.10)”
Time Lord would be a great pickup. But Portland probably knows that, too, so let’s see what the season brings. It’s either him or one of the Washington or Orlando centers, probably. Or we stand pat because Mitch stays healthy (haha) and small ball works for us.
The 🔤 of Clyde:
https://x.com/NBA_NewYork/status/1833344139527659845
I miss the Knicks, and i miss Clyde and Breen! 🧡💙
A healthy Time Lord is great. Unfortunately, he makes Mitch look like Mikal health-wise.
Anyway, he’d have to come at a steep discount just based on that injury history.
I really like the idea of RWIII but yeah, his bum knees are scary. Looking at it differently, the only reason he would even be available is because of his health, because when healthy he’s really, really good.
cyber, I forwarded that link to my girls, they adore Clyde like no other!
Cyber starting the morning off Dishing and Swishing!
I missed the Yabbadabbadooo moment – that would have had me agape
With RWIII you’re just hoping that between him and Mitch, one is healthy for the playoffs.
Not so different than KP with Boston, really. If the season goes well, it could come down to who has a functioning center when we meet them in the playoffs.
Yeah, but the Celts had Hoford the Timeless One…who even at his age is better than most centers in the NBA.
Listened to yesterday’s Lowe Post segment where Zach and Bobby Marks talked about the Randle situation. They ran through a bunch of fake trades, mostly involving centers coming back in a package (Randle for Kuzma and Jonas, Randle for John Collins and Walker Kessler, etc.), and dismissed all of them as unrealistic for one or both teams to consider. Like us, Zach thinks the Knicks want to just see what a healthy version of the team looks like, and will worry about any more deals later. Bobby stuck to this guns on the contract stuff he mentioned to Macri earlier in the summer, but also suggested Randle might do what Josh Hart did a year ago, by picking up his player option and negotiating an extension from there.
Nothing earth-shattering. Just always interesting to hear two of the smarter and more plugged-in analysts out there talking about our guys.
Oh, and Zach suggested that both Randle and Ingram and Aaron Gordon are all going to be interesting test cases of whether the new second apron rules will affect the kinds of contracts given to All-Star level guys who are definitely not capable of being the best player on a championship team, and maybe not even the second best. For a long time, guys just got paid, and teams would worry about maybe trading them later. Now, maybe not?
I intentionally didn’t bring up the Lowe/Marks pod even though it was good because the idea that Randle has something less than mega-max value is oddly provocative around these parts. In any event, I agree with Zach that letting it ride for this year is a perfectly good option, as Randle is a very good player. If, god willing, he has an incredible year, he’s not walking on us because we didn’t give him an extension.
Timelord is genuinely one of my favorite players in the league when healthy, but at this point it’s very hard to justify trading real value for him. In six seasons he’s played over 1,000 minutes once. Sadly he’s kind of a theoretical player.
The disrespect on Randle’s name right now is out of control. I know Zach Lowe is a lot smarter than me but grouping Randle and Aaron Gordon together doesn’t make any sense.
As for the idea that you can’t win a title with Randle as your #2… the Knicks could have won the title just last year with Randle as their second best player if he hadn’t been injured. Sure the Celtics were better but we could have won that series, especially with Porzingis out.
We didn’t actually get very far without Randle. We lost in the second round, in rather humiliating fashion, to a very unimpressive Indiana Pacers team that we would have stomped on had Julius been healthy. And people acting like he holds us back?!
If all this talk means we can get him at a discount, though, hey I’m all for it. But you probably have to act now. Once he starts playing he’ll likely put these stories to bed.
Z-man, I think there are two different kinds of Randle discussions. Zach’s take isn’t that he holds us back. It’s that he could become too expensive, given our other contracts and the threat of the second apron, and that he is maybe not the ideal fit on a roster where Brunson dominates the ball. Though as he notes, he saw the same January games the rest of us did. If that’s the real Randle/Brunson dynamic when Julius is back to full health, Randle is going absolutely nowhere, and will get paid whatever the hell he wants. Which I’m fine with.
Zach’s point was that players who can’t be the best player on a bonafide contender may well get squeezed in the Age of the Aprons. It was hardly disrespectful, it’s a trend you can easily observe by looking around the league, and Lowe was, like me, quite complimentary of Randle in general.
It’s just not that likely there’s $40M AAV out there for him.
Lowe probably has a much higher opinion of Aaron Gordon than we do. He was instrumental in the Nuggets winning a championship all of one year ago.
He’s more of a super role player to me, but there are definitely guys who hold him up pretty high.
By the metrics, Gordon has beaten Randle
In the last 2 seasons. Gordon has put up an EPM of +4.4 and +2.5. Randle was at +3.2 and +1.8. DARKO also gives the edge to Gordon: +2.39 to +2.11 DPM.
I think it’s a lot of noise from playing next to Jokic, but Gordon is a good player in his own right and fits Jokic almost as well as Jamal Murray.
Yeah, I started off by addressing Zach and then poorly transitioned to some other mainstream arguments that have been driving me crazy. “Randle holds us back/doesn’t fit” is more prevalent on Bill Simmons’ podcast.
EB, I hold Gordon in very high esteem, as well. I think he lines up more with OG Anunoby than Julius Randle, though. And if we’re talking about how players who can’t be the best player might get squeezed, well….
Cyber, I saw that on X. Very funny.
I don’t think it’s any disrespect to compare Randle and Gordon. Gordon plays a lot more defense I think.
I have harped for a long time about how salary rules seemed to make it impossible to pay 2nd tier stars less than the max, i.e. closer to what they actually deserve. I guess the second apron is the fix for that issue. Which I honestly think is probably healthy for the league.
Time Lord seems like a really good fit for what we need if he’s healthy but I think people are maybe underestimating how backed into a corner we are in terms of trade options assuming all the Nova boys are off the table. Williams doesn’t make a lot but I just spent five minutes poking around in the trade machine and couldn’t find anything that looked remotely reasonable outside of rolling it into a bigger trade with Randle as the outgoing salary.
I think the question of whether all our role players have de facto no trade clauses because they’re part of the best friends club with our superstar is going to be an interesting one to monitor moving forward.
The disrespect was calling Randle a player who you can’t win a title with if he’s your second best guy.
That is true of Aaron Gordon. He is an excellent all around basketball player, but he’s a bad #2 option. Even with Jokic as his #1, the Nuggets have never been very threatening with Gordon as their #2.
That’s not Randle, though. He’s not the Aaron Gordon of the Knicks, he’s the Jamal Murray.
Here’s a bunch of guys who fit the “not the best or 2nd best guy on a championship team” bill and what they got paid this summer:
Siakim – 47M
Anunoby – 42.5M
Quickley – 32.5M
Hartenstein – 29M
Harris – 26M
Bridges – 25M
DeRozan – 25M
Claxton – 25M
KCP – 22M
I don’t see the trend you’re referring to.
“I intentionally didn’t bring up the Lowe/Marks pod even though it was good because the idea that Randle has something less than mega-max value is oddly provocative around these parts.”
Really?? I don’t recall anyone affirmatively stating that Randle deserves a mega-max deal, let alone that he will get one or that we should sign him for one. What is actually “oddly provocative” is making ridiculous statements like this one.
“It’s just not that likely there’s $40M AAV out there for him.”
Boldly stated, considering you are so reluctant to go on the record with what you think Randle’s salary will be in 2026-27. Maybe it’s because you don’t want to look as foolish as you do in retrospect when you dubbed him the most detrimental player in the NBA and suggested that he should be traded at the first opportunity in an “asset-neutral” deal before his contract became an immovable albatross (while cleverly not defining what that meant, considering that you though his contract was maybe the worst in the NBA. I’m guessing that it is considerably less than the “asset-neutral” return that someone like Zach LaVine would bring back, considering that you never disparaged LaVine to the same degree.)
Didn’t the Nuggets win with Aaron Gordon as their second best player?
Just a Jokic exception I guess.
I mean, Aaron Gordon is not Scottie Pippen. But he is a very good player.
“Z-man, I think there are two different kinds of Randle discussions. Zach’s take isn’t that he holds us back. It’s that he could become too expensive, given our other contracts and the threat of the second apron, and that he is maybe not the ideal fit on a roster where Brunson dominates the ball. Though as he notes, he saw the same January games the rest of us did. If that’s the real Randle/Brunson dynamic when Julius is back to full health, Randle is going absolutely nowhere, and will get paid whatever the hell he wants. Which I’m fine with.”
I don’t disagree with anything that Lowe is suggesting. However, the issue is around leverage. Randle has considerable leverage (note: not ALL the leverage, just a considerable amount) in the sense that the Knicks can’t possibly replace him if he walks….even to his own financial detriment! In other words, if Leon meets with Randle and his agent and says, “Well, Zach Lowe is pretty smart and he says you are unlikely to get paid more than X dollars if you opt out and go unrestricted so you had better opt in and then accept our very reasonable extension offer of X plus $Y” (say, somewhere around $30-35M AAV), Mintz should advise Randle to tell Leon to go fuck himself, he’s opting out and will take his chances and bet on himself having yet another all-NBA season. Which is why I have very comfortably gone on the record that when the dust settles, Randle will be signed to an extension very much like Brunson’s.
But how much leverage will Randle have in a summer when cap space teams are few and far between? He loves playing in this city, but does he love it enough to become the face of a rebuilding Nets squad?
“Didn’t the Nuggets win with Aaron Gordon as their second best player?”
Most would argue that Jamal Murray is their second best player, when healthy of course. I don’t think it’s wrong to feel otherwise…Gordon is a strong defender and fits very well with Jokic…but I don’t think his skillset is transferrable to any setting, i.e. one without an immortal C next to him.
FWIW I was not suggesting Randle is being disrespected because people think he might not get paid.
It was the bit about how he can’t be the 2nd best player on a title team that irked me.
“But how much leverage will Randle have in a summer when cap space teams are few and far between? He loves playing in this city, but does he love it enough to become the face of a rebuilding Nets squad?”
Rebuilding teams can turn the corner and become playoff teams very quickly in the era of the second apron. Additionally, how much would Randle actually be risking? If the Knicks offer is, say, $32M AAV, does anyone actually think that there isn’t a single non-horrible team out there that would offer him something significantly above $25M?
Most of the basement dwellers have decent cap situations and excess draft picks, and if they acquire Randle on a market-level deal, they can pick up excellent players from teams desperately trying to unload salary after failing to contend.
But again, the play is to make the Knicks blink. I still haven’t heard a convincing argument that the Knicks would be better off letting Randle walk than to pay him a Brunson-level extension. Until that argument is presented, it seems silly to suggest that they should lowball him based on what other teams might offer.
I think “winning with him as your 2nd best player” is just a narrow and inaccurate way to look at things. Winning if he is your clear 2nd option on offence, so and so (Embiid, Jokic, Tatum, Brunson) can’t win if x is your second best player, few teams have a roster to win if x is your 2nd best player are more accurate. When Porzingis went to Boston, we knew it would work whether he was the 2nd best player or not. Likewise, I have no idea if the Knicks will be better with Mikal or Julius becoming the 2nd best player. All I know is that a healthy Julius has the skill set to be an all-NBA player whether he is the perfect fit for this team or not.
And count me out on Time Lord. Brings back shades of Nerlens’ 2nd season when we needed him to back up Mitch.
Playoff Jamal Murray was unambiguously the Nuggets 2nd best player.
Gordon is probably the 3rd best player overall, but I’m not sure there’s a huge gap between him and either KCP or MPJ. They all play pretty divergent roles while still being well-rounded enough to avoid hampering the team (e g., Gordon shot 39% on 3s during the championship run). The team needed each to fill their respective niche in order to compete: KCP was the primary stopper, Gordon cleaned up everything on both ends, and MPJ was a high-volume shooter and tertiary scorer.
One under discussed portion of this is that if Randle walks it likely opens up the full MLE for us this summer. So the worst case scenario is we get to go shopping with nearly $15M in free agency.
The very simple argument for why we could be better without Randle is:
1. He is a bad, lazy defender
2. He has played atrociously bad in 2 playoffs/15 playoff games
I see, um, some folks, are still not capable of having a rational discussion about Julius Randle.
Asking someone for a precise contract prediction for the 2026-2027 season is of course a ridiculous exercise, with there being so many factors unknowable to us e.g. what will happen between now and then, Randle’s personal weighing of security vs earnings maximization, etc.
But I will predict this just as strongly as someone predicted the Bargnani trade would age well and that Ron Baker would be a solid NBA player: Randle won’t get $40M AAV from a non-Knicks team.
All of these figures are well below the max for everyone but Siakam and OG. There are obviously circumstances in which non-#1s can still get paid like #1s, and the Siakam/OG situation wherein the player has the team by the balls after a major trade is an obvious example. There’s also the incumbent advantage enjoyed by guys like Murray and Jaylen Brown, among others.
There’s a difference between Randle’s intrinsic value as a basketball player and Randle’s value to the Knicks.
IMO, at least for now, he has more value to the Knicks.
If a team has multiple efficient high usage scorers, imo losing Randle doesn’t mean that much.
He’s not super effcient.
He’s not a particularly good defender.
He makes poor decisions at critical times.
But on the Knicks, he’s the 2nd option and then there’s a big drop off to Mikal and OG. OG is clearly not a 2nd option and there’s some question about whether Mikal could take over the role and remain efficient.
We saw what happened last year when Randle got hurt. We had no trouble replacing his rebounding, play making and defense. However, Brunson had to turn into a superman scorer for us to win games. That he did it on many nights was great, but that’s not how to contruct a sustainably winning basketball team.
IF (big if) Mikal can grow into solid 2nd option, imo Randle can be replaced in a trade for a starting C and we could slide OG to PF. If he’s more of a co 3rd option with OG, then we need Randle.
Not all 15. IIRC, he had 2-3 good games combined across the Cleveland and Miami series’ last year. Or maybe 2-3 good halves? Anyway, there were definitely stretches where he was going downhill and seemed unstoppable like the wrecking ball we know he can be. He was just too badly injured to do that for long periods of time.
Noble, if you’re right that there is a clear and obvious trend where NBA teams no longer want to pay big money for guys who can’t be the best player on a team, then you’re wrong that OG had us by the balls.
If you’re right that OG had us by the balls bc teams were going to offer him big money if we didn’t, then you’re wrong about the trend.
Multiple things can be true.
1. Teams may not be as willing to pay 2nd and 3rd option players quite as much anymore.
2. We had to pay OG because we traded so much away for him and elite 3&D switchable wings like him are in high demand around the league but not that easy to find (at least at his caliber).
3. He’s probably overpaid.
but that’s partly where Hartenstein came in, as he could serve as an outlet when teams doubled Brunson. Without Randle or Hartenstein, defenses can zero in on Brunson. Still, I doubt Brunson can keep that pace for 82 games and the playoffs.
I’m not convinced Mikal is a true number 2 scorer. Even if he can be, we might be better off with him as a lockdown defender & 3rd option.
I like Randle and want him to stay, but I don’t even think he’s screwed if he walks for nothing.
We’ll still get something back in a sign-and-trade or else have 15 mil to spend on a 3-and-D pf.
I’m just pointing this out to say I don’t think Randle “has us by the balls” per se, but I do think it’s in the best interest of both sides to get a new contract done.
My guess is that they’ll sign him for something between $35-40 mil AAV, although idk if it will be an extension this year or a new contract next. Randle and Leon probably already have it mapped out.
We are going to miss Hartenstein even if/when Mitch is healthy (and I’m getting more skeptical about him being ready and anywhere close to 100% for the start of the season). There’s no doubt about that.
The spacing is way better than in the days of Payton and RJ, but I’m still a little skeptical of the spacing with the Mitch/Randle combo also. I-Hart also does more on offense than Mitch aside from that floater.
A lot of these guys have better complementary skill sets than Randle. They pass or shoot or defend, or do all three. Randle pounds the rock, is a questionable floor spacer, doesn’t cut, and falls asleep on defense.
Randle is great, but he’s not necessarily a great fit next to any #1 options.
Aaron Gordon might only fit next to Jokic, but his cutting and defense are a perfect complement to him. Same with Murray’s 2-man game.
Boston’s team might not have quite the jigsaw puzzle fit Denver does, but they all shoot, defend, and drive.
The Heat’s run to the finals was similar. They lacked raw talent but everyone in the rotation were passable shooters, defenders, and drivers.
I think Randle fits just fine but there’s definitely question marks there that will make other teams hesitate to offer him big money, especially entering his 30s.
Yeah, but these two can’t:
1. Because of the second apron, NBA teams don’t want to overpay guys who can’t be the best player on a title team.
2. NBA teams wanted to offer OG Anunoby a max contract.
we finished the season completely dependent on jalen for our offense…
one more year for deuce to get comfortable as a point guard along with the addition and some rapid growth by kolek, hopefully makes us less totally dependent on jalen for things to work…
gotta figure out a way not to get crushed when he goes to the sideline during the playoffs
OG is an exception to the fact that teams don’t want to overpay for 2nd and 3rd options because of his plug and playability. There is not a single team in the NBA where OG isn’t an immediate starter and huge upgrade because he can effectively play three positions and is an elite defender and super role player.
Randle, Murray, Gordon, etc, are very different, even if they might be arguably better, because they are all much more specific type players and don’t fit into every situation.
On top of that we probably overpaid OG a bit to ensure we could keep him. In the open market he might not have gotten quite as much but we were leveraged into a situation where we couldn’t afford to let him test the market and he hadn’t been here long enough to develop any real loyalty to the team.
We are not as stuck with Randle and low balling him/forcing him to test the market might be the correct play. Let some other team offer him $30+ million before we do. If he gets a big offer we match and if he is so offended he wants to leave for less money or to a worse situation because we didn’t overpay him out the gate then good riddance.
A trend isn’t a rule.
[Looks at thread he largely kicked off]
I have some regrets.
It’s definitely the right play. Bidding against yourself is usually dumb.
“But I will predict this just as strongly as someone predicted the Bargnani trade would age well and that Ron Baker would be a solid NBA player: Randle won’t get $40M AAV from a non-Knicks team.”
I know how pissy you get when someone accuses you of saying things that you didn’t say verbatim, but it seems like you have no problem doing that yourself, as you are doing here. It’s also interesting that you once again needed to go back over a decade to find a “prediction” that I was dreadfully wrong about (I didn’t actually predict anything, just defended the logic of the trade, but whatever), and then one of them was about a UDFA that I hoped would pan out but unfortunately didn’t.
For all of my dumb takes (including some that actually occurred in the last decade, I’m sure you can dig some up) none, including defending the Bargnani trade, come close to your assessment of Randle in Summer 2022, or your “rudderless mess” takes on Leon’s tenure…you know, stuff that is actually relevant today.
What’s interesting here is that I don’t even have an issue with the take that paying Randle $40M AAV (which is btw far less than Siakam and significantly less than OG) might be an overpay in a vacuum. But just like with OG (and with players such as IQ, RJ, iHart…all of whom are probably overpaid in a vacuum), we’re talking about a situational overpay based on the consequences of not overpaying and daring him to walk. Which is why I think Leon will cave, and why I won’t blame him for doing so.
It’s also interesting that you are unwilling to do here what you seem to be asking of E before you will respond to him…which is to make a statement that can actually be verified in hindsight. It really comes down to two questions:
1. Will Randle still be on the roster in 2026-27?
2. What will the AAV of his contract be at that time?
I predict Yes to #1 and $40M AAV to #2. I feel more strongly about #2 than #1, meaning that if he is not here, someone will pay him somewhere near that amount, either via free agency, sign-and-trade, or sign now, trade later. But if I had to bet, I would go with his being here on something close to a Brunson-level extension.
Because I’m busy I oversimplified a bit but I think other posters have clarified what I’m getting at.
High-usage guys who clearly can’t be #1 options are, to some extent, getting squeezed because they’re generally not easy to slot into any lineup and teams in general have shied away from paying top dollar to go from bad-to-mediocre.
Again, there are exceptions. Murray and Brown are crucial pieces of bona fide contenders (the two most recent champions), which gives them obvious leverage. Now, I do think Boston and Denver probably could’ve played some hardball if they really wanted to, but they probably calculated it wasn’t worth it for non-basketball reasons (and probably correctly).
DeRozan is in Randle’s ballpark as a scorer and player. He’s a demonstrably better scorer, in fact. He got 3/$70M and even that took a while. I am aware he is significantly older than Randle and that undoubtedly had a role, but the point is these kinds of high-usage, non-top dog types aren’t hitting the open market with a ton of frequency, and are getting a somewhat chilly reception when they do.
OG, Gordon, and other guys with elite complimentary skills are simply in a different category and there’s no real trend to discern there. They get what a team will pay them based on their age, production, etc. The Pistons were dying to reel in OG for money alone because if/when they get good, he’d fit right in (or he’d be easily tradable to someone else).
Forget about the exceptions… who are the examples?
Certainly not DeMar DeRozan. He is 35 years old, will be the 4th option in Sacramento, and he got $25M/year for 3 years.
What the second apron has done is squeeze the middle class. Only 6 teams used even a portion of the mid-level exception this summer. Zero teams used all of it. Guys who used to get $8-10MM are getting the minimum. Guys like Tyus Jones can’t find a job.
But guys like Randle? Current all stars? Show me one who got squeezed. Even the fugazis like Tobias Harris are still getting paid.
I should point out that $40M AAV in 2026-2029 is somewhere around 22% of the salary cap. That is nowhere near the vicinity of actual mega-max deals. Brown will be making 33% of the cap. So is Towns. So is Beal. Murray will be getting close to 30%. Siakam will be at 29%.
However it turns out, I will definitely give Leon some grace when the dust settles with Randle, whether he gets paid, traded, or settles for less. He’s handled contract negotiations very well to this point, at least in my book. Some situational overpays (Hart, OG, probably RJ, Fournier, Kemba, Rose) but some excellent underpays (Brunson, DDV, Mitch, iHart (alas!), Randle, Deuce). I just don’t think it’s his style to play Ainge-level hardball.
Brandon Ingram is getting squeezed mainly because he is seeking a $50+AAV extension…far more than Randle is even eligible to make. Personally I think that Randle is the better player, and he has more awards and accolades.
This was just two people talking shit to try to fill airtime when there is really nothing to say or anyt NY drama to play out…
Folks, our one and two are Brunson and Randle. They’r a lot better than people give them credit. Our three and four are both perfect complements to 1&2 and the best 3&D wings in the world. Mitch is pretty damn good at rim running and rim protection. He’s the best in the world at offensive rebounding.
We have a really really good team with an insane bench. Josh Hart and DDV had unbelivable careeer seasons, destryed Embiid led 76rs and have now been relegated to bench roles because the starters are that good.
LETS GO win 55+ games this season and make a deep playoff run…who knows, we may have a little luck and even catch a break like the Celtics just did.
I don’t think it’s your personal opinion. Julius Randle is demonstrably better than Brandon Ingram.
Ingram is consistently decent. He doesn’t have the good/bad splits like Randle did for his first four years here. But Randle’s highs are way above anything Ingram has ever delivered.
FWIW I don’t think Ingram is getting squeezed by the apron. I doubt there was ever an era where a team would be thrilled to give him 35% of the cap.
I don’t have a dog in the “how much will Randle get paid” fight. I hope it’s true that we can squeeze him. I’m more irked by all the disrespect that gets slung his way while people make their case against him.
Julius Randle is a bona fide “top dog”. He proved that when he carried Payton, Barrett, Bullock, and Noel to a 4 seed. You think Aaron Gordon could have done that? Or Brandon Ingram? Of course not.
He can’t be the top dog on a championship team, but neither can nearly all the max players out there! Trae Young, for instance, is never going to be the best guy on a championship team. Does anyone think he’s going to have to settle for 20% of the cap on his next deal?
Totally
I think people underestimate how willing Randle is to playing team basketball. I truly don’t believe he wants to be the #1 guy. I think he likes having less pressure. He facilitated very well last season. Let’s be realistic as well… When Brunson sits for his 6 minutes a half, it’s perfectly fine if Randle takes up 20 seconds of the shot clock every possession slowing the game down because it helps mitigate the other team while Brunson is on the bench. Randle is a damn good basketball player and trading him would be a mistake. If he stays healthy he’ll likely make All-NBA this year. I’d personally like to see him healthy in the playoffs to see what he can do. He’s not a great defender in the team sense, but he’s adequate 1 on 1. We have more than enough on the defensive end that he’s not a deficiency there. I’m looking forward to seeing how this team comes out of the gate. My birthday is on the 22nd and I can’t wait to celebrate a W against the Celtics!
There’s still a salary floor, so players willing to go to bad teams will still be able to get overpaid. The squeeze is going to come from good-but-not-great teams not wanting to go over the apron to re-sign non-vital free agents. That’s why Paul George is in Philadelphia now and not LA. Ballmer Bucks, like Dolan Dollars, can’t be tossed flippantly around anymore. It’s not a rule, but it does look like things are trending away from the Big Three model, which leaves the #2/#3 guys in a bit of a lurch.
Bad teams are likely the ones who will bid up Randle.
Zach Lowe previously and comprehensively picked apart the apron excuse for the Clippers:
Bidiong, I like everything you said except “If he stays healthy he’ll likely make All-NBA this year.” I don’t think so. He won’t be THE man anymore — with Brunson, OG, and Mikal, not to mention Divo throwing flame, he’ll be lucky to average 22-10. Which is about what I expect, so maybe All-Star, but All-NBA doesn’t seem likely unless it is clear he’s somehow carrying the team. Which probably means something bad has happened.
But I would be very, very happy with 22-10, and I think that’ll be a critical piece to this puzzle.
At the end of the day, I don’t think this question is likely to be resolved any time soon. Randle does not have to decide on his player option until after the season, and it doesn’t seem like Leon is in any rush to extend him. Hopefully Randle will play so well that folks will come around on him.
In a larger sense, I don’t see a championship in our future unless either Randle or a replacement starting forward of his caliber is a part of it.
“Bidiong, I like everything you said except “If he stays healthy he’ll likely make All-NBA this year.” I don’t think so. He won’t be THE man anymore”
I sort of agree, but Randle was super-dominant in January with Brunson and OG in the fold, and I think Mikal might actually help Randle as a 3PT threat. The key for me is whether Randle a) is healthy and b) can cut down his turnovers. It may also help that he’s playing for a contract.
The important thing is that he’s proven that he can play at an all-NBA level. He did it twice and was on his way a third time. And it’s in Brunson’s best interests for Julius to actually play like an all-NBA player, so he will be happy to defer enough for that to happen.
Alan, I liked the thread!!!
And I would want to pay Ingram 50 m about as much as I want a rash on my butt….
“The goal was to get [Paul George] as much money as possible, but we still have to add to the team by managing max cap space in 26-27 and being out of the second apron in 25-26. We’re trying to win a championship, that’s why we brought this group together. That’s why we gave up so much to get Paul and Kawhi. The unfortunate part of it, we only had one healthy postseason. That’s not anybody’s fault, but that’s the reality.”
-Lawrence Frank, July 15th 2024
He says he did pretty much exactly what TNFH said good teams were going to do to these kinds of second-tier players when it comes to paying them in the apron era. You can believe he’s lying, or incompetent, or whatever, but George is no longer a Clipper, so there is a reality to it.
Paul George will be 34.5 years old when the season starts and before this past season went 4 straight seasons where he never played more than 56 games. He still managed to convince a team to pay him $50+ AAV for the next 4 years despite not hitting the 4.0 BPM mark since 2020-21. If anything, it proves the point that it you try to lowball that kind of player, there will be a taker and you will lose him, which is exactly what happened.
George was great last year, and cost the Clippers a lot to acquire. Letting him go to avoid the 2nd apron isn’t nothing.