Knicks Morning News (2018.05.07)

Harden’s game really is repulsing. How do you hook a guy, slam the ball into his face and get a foul call.

https://streamable.com/0foh2

He is hard to watch. Too much iso too!
Houston is boring. They act like they are exciting basketball and all but they are not. GS series will be over in 5 games.
Boston Cleveland might go 7 though.

Houston is boring. They act like they are exciting basketball and all but they are not. GS series will be over in 5 games.

Even though I’ll be rooting for GS, there is a good chance Houston might win. Golden State has lost a lot of the player movement, the cutting. Their defense fluctuates from very good to very bad, Draymond Green’s game has fallen off a bit, as has Iguodala’s. GS still is, at least on paper, the best roster in the NBA, but Houston has played better this season.

I expect the de-facto NBA Finals to be longer than 5 games.

That said, with this organization, I wouldn’t be surprised if they didn’t tank.

I don’t think that has anything to do with Fizdale, per se, but the organization itself. He’s not a moron. He’ll follow the lead of his bosses. If they want him to tank, he’ll tank. It’s not like he’s going to, like, go rogue or anything like that. Let’s hope that the organization knows when to tank.

I think when your “star” is injured and your hope lies in testing out a bunch of young guys in extended minutes, that’s pretty much the optimal time to tank. Call me crazy.

Tanking is a huge gamble that fails more often than it succeeds. Not necessarily the best or only strategy for a team in the Knicks’ situation.

Tanking really just means getting rid of anyone who isn’t going to be part of the future of the team. Doing that typically means that you will suck. If you do suck, good for you. If you somehow don’t suck, good for you, as well.

I don’t think that’s what tanking is. That’s a total rebuild – I’m all for it.

Tanking is intentionally losing to get better draft opportunities.

@10 I think that is a VERSION of tanking, the one I like the best – most honest, classy.

But wasn’t what Philly did simply trading away veterans and players who had no place for their future?

For all we know nobody on the Sixers organization ever told players or coaches to lose games on purpose, they just focused on young guys and gambles (which lead them to dudes like McConnell, Covington and Holmes) and didn’t sign veterans who wouldn’t be a part of their future plans.

For all we know, it’s possible nobody has ever tanked!

Its actually an interesting thing to think about. Did Philly ever actually “tank.” I mean we know they traded away all their vets from their Iggy core before they started the process. And they did pick players in the draft who were injured or who had overlapping skills/positions both to get the best talent but also to extend the window of their rebuild…but did they ever intentionally play bad players or players that they never thought would be a part of the team in order to lose? Did they ever pull players out of games who were hot or not play a player who was playing well in order to insure the loss?

This is the harder thing to prove in the NBA but I think is really important. I think most people who rail against tanking have no problem with a youth movement rebuild. Its the idea of making that a 5 year process and intentionally playing bad players along the way in order to maximize losses that doesn’t sit well. For the Knicks this year I would have had no problem with Frank getting more minutes earlier in the season or Burke being called up earlier but if Frank is going off in a game and gets sat because the game is close and we want to lose the game…that’s a problem for me.

With Fizdale…I do not think we can expect coaches to tank or intentionally lose. The fact is that even if people know a team is tanking…the coach is the one who takes the biggest hit to his reputation and legacy. At the end of the day his record as a coach is the biggest thing a coach has to stand on when he’s applying for other jobs. Think about if you have a job on your resume where you only worked there for 3 months before you quit or got fired. When you interview for another job, the only thing that recruiter sees is that you didn’t work for a long time at that job. You can explain why that was the case and maybe the recruiter will believe you but its a wall you have to climb over that you’d rather not if you didn’t have to.

Do you have any indication that players and / or coaches with the Sixers organization were told to intentionally lose games or are you just intent on taking some sort of moral high ground?

Are you going to play Cinderella and pretend you don’t believe Philly tanked?

After years of daily talk about the need for tanking, talking about how the Knicks were not tanking ‘correctly’, talking about how Philly was tanking, how San Antonio tanked into Tim Duncan, etc., all of a sudden, there is no evidence anyone ever tanked!!!!

How dishonest can some of my fellow Knickerbloggers be?

C’mon, guys…let’s keep the conversation honest.

We’re arguing semantics here, again. “Tank” or “rebuild?”

And, “tanking” as I see it is something that a front office does. It does not necessarily involve a coach or players throwing games. The FO removes vets who have no future on the team for the best young player/draft assets possible. Keep young players, play them, and evaluate. Keep the young players who you think could develop into something special (at least a good rotation player), and deal off those that you don’t, again, to try to acquire future assets.

The Knicks absolutely should “tank” this coming season. Try to trade Lee. Try to trade Kanter if he opts in. Do NOT sign or resign vets like Beasley, even to cheap one year deals. Maybe keep one token vet for “leadership” (LT could fulfill that role, but I’d still unload him for a 2nd round pick if possible).

FWIW, I’m cynical about the current FO recognizing this. If they did, they would have somehow dealt OQ and Lee for whatever and kept Willy before the trading deadline. But, perhaps they viewed Willy as not a good future rotation player, so moved him for picks. So be it, but I think they were wrong on him.

My prediction.

I think the chances of the Knicks tanking right from the start of the season are close to 0%.

They are going to do what they did last year with the possible exception of moving someone like Lee, Thomas, or Noah if a deal makes sense. They are going to play players based on merit and try to win as many games as they can with what they have and what they add in the off season.

The more interesting question is what they do with KP.

Let’s just say he’s ready to play at the end of December. They have a choice.

1. They can play him, continue his development, see how he fits with the other young players, get a feel for what 2019 is going to look like, and win even more games.

2. Take a more conservative approach, sit him out the entire year, and ultimately go into all out tank mode down the stretch like they did this past year.

That’s where it gets tricky.

If the goal is to sign free agents in 2019, they pretty much have to play KP when he gets cleared and try to finish off the season well. That way, they can make the case to free agents in 2019 that the team is on the upswing and with another summer of development and couple of free agents the future is bright. If they get off poorly (as expected unless we get a surprise), sit out KP the whole season, and go into all out tank mode down the stretch, no one is going to come here in 2019.

This thread’s Cinderellas openly talking about ‘tanking’:

http://knickerblogger.net/2017-18-game-thread-knicks-kings/

That was then (virtually the same thing in every game) – but as of today they don’t know if ‘tanking’ actually exists!

If the goal is to sign free agents in 2019, they pretty much have to play KP when he gets cleared and try to finish off the season well. That way, they can make the case to free agents in 2019 that the team is on the upswing and with another summer of development and couple of free agents the future is bright. If they get off poorly (as expected), sit out KP the whole season, and go into all out tank mode down the stretch, no one is going to come here in 2019.

I find it hard to believe that FA’s will be looking at us after an inevitable <30 win season next year(with or without KP). We should be looking at the 2020/21 off seasons where we'll hopefully be coming off a playoff appearance or two.

The 2021 class has Beal, Porter Jr., Gobert, AD, Beal, Giannis and Oladipo.

the Knicks played future rotation guys Marshall Plumlee, Sasha Vujacic, Chasson Randle and Maurice Ndour 20+ minutes

The fact that the Knicks were trying to lose too doesn’t mean that they weren’t tanking. And c’mon, Tiago Splitter shotting 3s and taking almost 20 shots per 36?

2. Take a more conservative approach, sit him out the entire year, and ultimately go into tank mode down the stretch like they did this past year.

There is 0% chance of KP sitting the whole year. It’s a contract year for him and he would never accept it.

KP’s getting maxed regardless but yeah he’s gonna want to play.

On the other hand it would be funny if we drafted Mo Bamba who plays well and lowers KP’s asking price.

There is 0% chance of KP sitting the whole year. It’s a contract year for him and he would never accept it.

That makes sense to me, but my “question” is more about whether KP and the team look good enough before the end of the season in order to attract free agents in 2019 and less about whether KP eventually gets cleared and plays some minutes at some point. If they wait until later and go really slow, they are going to have a tougher time selling their plan in 2019.

#protank

@29

Are you able to hold a discussion or you just want to troll really?

I am pro tanking, I have always been and will continue to be until the NBA stops rewarding tanking as a viable rebuilding alternative. I wanted the Knicks to play Mudiay 48 minutes every game and start me and you at the frontcourt so we could have lost every single remaining game. I don’t care about moral platitudes of winning the right way when I root for one of the most morally bankrupt organizations in pro sports ever.

What I’m going against is this stupid morally charged argument that tanking is somehow cheating (when it’s literally supported by the rules) and that Philly destroyed the integrity of the game. They did what every team has done in stretches, give minutes to shit players and lose. They just managed to do it correctly and are reaping the benefits of it, just like no one will remember the Mavs sitting every rotation player down the stretch to leapfrog Atlanta down the standings or how Chicago shut down every player with an ounce of talent they had to keep losing and keep up with the Nets. Just like the Knicks playing Melo 20 minutes and Marshall Plumlee 28 in a meaningless last game of the season (and still somehow winning because Knicks).

What I’m going against is this stupid morally charged argument that tanking is somehow cheating (when it’s literally supported by the rules) and that Philly destroyed the integrity of the game.

This is like Bill Clinton arguing over the definition of the word “is.”

I don’t know if anyone says tanking is cheating. It does take a big steaming dump on the concepts of sportsmanship and competition. It’s also a strategy that doesn’t actually have, by all available evidence, a greater record of success than any other competent approach to team-building. And it absolutely is a strategy that WILL harm the NBA if more teams start following Philly’s example.

Mike

Lee has to go or we’re going to have a Willy situation at 2/3.

I’m looking forward to the Frank, Baker, Dotson, Lee, Hardaway starting lineup with Mikal Bridges and Troy Williams as the first guys off of the bench.

I think teams like Chicago and Dallas took it to new levels this year. Even in Philadelphia, the players were trying and the coach didn’t sabotage wins. The front office played a numbers game, employing as many speculative prospects as possible and using pump-and-dump strategies. But you got the feeling they were really looking for value. TJ McConnell and Robert Covington developed from the minutes they got, and Michael Carter-Williams netted Philadelphia the 10th pick in this year’s draft.

This is the first year I ever watched the NBA and thought the coach was actively working to lose the game he was playing based on instructions from the GM/owner. And the Bulls were playing players who they know can’t play in this league. They weren’t looking for the next Robert Covington when they played Cameron Payne.

In theory, I don’t ever want to see the Knicks do that. It really was loathsome to watch. But if Silver is going to sit on his ass and do nothing, then we have no choice. This is like the steroids issue in baseball. Players had to take them to keep up. So we’ll have to do it, too, since now it’s going to be the way, thanks to Silver’s inaction.

@47

Exactly. Philly even found players who would very likely start for our own team in those seasons in Covington and McConnell. It is the way the league works for bottom feeders, and it’s stupid not do it.

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Source: Stan Van Gundy and the Pistons have parted ways.

What’s the worst situation for a new coach – Charlotte or Detroit?

He really isn’t. His defense is up to par, but the offensive production is definitely 100% not max contract worthy.

So Detroit finally parted ways with SVG, I expected them to wait until the middle of next season to see what the Blake addition gives them. I guess the situation is so plainly bad they didn’t feel the need.

Detroit is a candidate to go full bore King Tiger Tank mode for the next few years. Er, excuse me, rebuild mode…

Is Hinkie available?

I’ve only read the headline and it was enough to make me cringe. I almost feel bad sharing this with DRed.

Hail to the Chief: How Brad Stevens Has Stopped the Sixers

Philly was on a collision course with history. Until it ran into the President.

https://www.theringer.com/nba/2018/5/7/17326080/brad-stevens-celtics-sixers

Aside: I’m having a hard time writing off the Sixers. I think if they win tonight they can come all the way back. It would be nice if their coach made *some* adjustments instead of continually having his pants pulled down.

Tanking becomes cheating when you sit players mid-game who are playing well to simply lose, when you sit young promising players with fake ailments so you can start worse players you have no intention of keeping. What Chicago and Dallas did down the stretch was cheating, that’s why they were warned. Just because the commissioner has no teeth doesn’t make the act not wrong.

What Philly did, for the most part, was not cheating and a great move. They might have cheated in individual games but I don’t know, but the act of signing youth and trading away every vet was not cheating and really smart. With that said what Philly did is not repeatable. They were able to build this team because three times the best player available in the draft was hurt and missed their rookie, or first two seasons, extending their ability to stay bad and they were also the beneficiaries of one of the worst trades in NBA history with the Kings.

The irony of that article you could make a decent case that, over the last 8 years, Danny Ainge has been more valuable than all but the top tier of players in the league. But Stevens? Give me a break.

@61 You hit the nail on the head!

The story of Philly getting good gets reduced to “tanking”, or whatever you want to call it. But Philadelphia made some smart trades too. For example, they traded a rookie of the year for a first round pick (a trade that was widely derided at the time but proved to be a good one over time) and got a first round pick for taking on McGee’ contract.

Seems like a lot of people are overcomplicating what I think is ultimately a simple concept.

The most optimal form of “tanking” is exactly what Philly did. It was essentially one long audition while the team racked up high lottery picks. For the most part, they thought there was a non-zero chance that everyone on their roster could be a part of their future.

Since undrafted free agents, second round picks, and waiver wire types tend to not be wildly productive, Philly was very bad and picked pretty highly in the draft. The 3-4 intriguing players from that time period were locked up on team-friendly deals to surround the eventual high picks, while the rest just went by the wayside and it didn’t matter because they cost anything to acquire. They didn’t waste any roster spots on the Courtney Lees of the world.

Meanwhile they stayed active on the cap space rental market until they were ready to field a competitive team. They had some lucky breaks to be sure but really they just followed the logic of the win curve and, lo and behold, decades of empirical data wasn’t wrong!

The Blake Griffin contract has to be one of the worst in the NBA right now. The Pistons took that mess on and actually paid the Clippers for the privilege of doing it. They gave up a player that is or will arguably be the better player and also gave up a first round pick. Griffin is obviously a lot better than Bargnani, but it’s the same kind of thing. If you take on a bad contract (Bargs or Griffin) you are the one that’s supposed to get paid. It’s comically bad to be paying. I always thought Stan was a pretty good coach, but he was clearly way out of his league when it came to making personnel moves.

I think the Celtics have a lot of two way players and that makes a big difference in the playoffs. Horford can defend Embiid and can score too, and that makes Boston’s matchup with Philadelphia much better. Miami didn’t really have anyone to do that. Toronto, on the other hand seems to be suffering because they don’t have enough defense.

For the record, I think Stevens is probably a good coach, but his Celtics teams have been more talented than the lamestream media realizes, and he gets lionized because he’s a nerdy looking white dude, which for some reason is the sports medias platonic ideal of a coach.

Yeah, you read these articles and holy shit, the racial thing is glaring.

So no one is interested in Cobra Kai, huh?

Jeez, what do the Raptors do now? Blow the whole thing up? Come back next year with the same crew and get spanked in the playoffs again?

Ujiri’s job just got a whole lot more complicated.

It’s not just that Toronto lost, it’s that they got swept and some of the games weren’t close. I predict another coaching vacancy. From a GM point of view, I would consider going after Kawhi if I were them.

I would potentially go the other way and look to off-load DeRozan. I think that suggestion was raised on yesterday’s thread. I doubt they do it considering the fan lead revolt that would likely happen.

I don’t know if Gregg Popovich would trade for Kyle Lowry considering they have Dejounte Murray in the fold, but I could see the intrigue there for sure. I just want to see Toronto actually have a chance even though we play in the same division as them. Anything is better than Boston.

Yeah, I think it kinda starts and ends with DeRozan. He has stalled in his development and has never managed to find a way to be a more efficient scorer, and he’s never been much of a defender in the first place. Lowry is better but also older and thus probably less valuable in terms of a trade.

If I’m Ujiri I’m looking to make a DeRozan deal while finding a way to unload Ibaka’s contract. If Leonard is healthy and available he would be the ideal target for sure, a team with Lowry, Wright / Anunoby, Leonard, Siakam and Valanciunas is much scarier to me than what Toronto has right now.

Very tough offseason decision for Toronto. Breaking up a 60-win team is no easy call. They have to think about fan loyalty and attendance. On the other hand, they will obviously never ever beat LeBron. But if they change something, what should they change? There are no obvious weak links in the team, nor anyone with tremendous trade value. What could they get for Lowry, DeRozan, Valanciunas, or Ibaka that would make them a better team next year?

Given how much money both Lowry and DeRozan have left on their contracts it’s tough to see them getting much of anything other than other teams problems in return. Lowry has two years left at 30m+ per and DeRozan has 2 plus a player options at around 28 per. Both guys have struggled enough in the playoffs that it’s tough to see another team thinking one or the other is going to put them over the top. Add to that the fact that Toronto has enough young talent that even if you do trade those guys you’re probably not going to wind up with a high lottery pick to rebuild around and I’m guessing that they just fire Casey and hope LBJ takes his talents to L.A. so they can fight it out with Philly and Boston.

My reasoning for a DeRozan trade is that Blake Griffin, who’s probably a worse player and has a much worse contract just got traded for the 12th overall pick + Bradley, Harris and Boban, which is a pretty good haul. Granted it happened because of Detroit’s stupidity, but I would say there’s plenty of teams out there that would want DeRozan still.

The Lakers are the perfect match because they’ll have so much cap space that they can take DeRozan’s salary without matching anything. I’m not thinking about a premium, but I could see them offering something like Kuzma + sign and trade Randle + a protected future first for him, for example, with those pieces serving as assets + guys like Poeltl or Wright to trade for other players. The Clippers could offer Gallinari plus either Lou Williams or Beverley + filler + picks.

I’m just throwing out ideas of what could potentially happen, as I think DeRozan definitely has a market and Toronto has to make a move to be any relevant in the east.

I am from Germany anf for example in our highest soccer league the worst 2 teams must go one leage down. So we dont reward the worst teams, the must go down, because they are not good enough to be in the best league. So I know, you have a different system. But I think maybe they should reward the 9th seed with high pics. Tanking sucks really!!! Should be a good mix, of course the worst teams, should have a high pick, but not considered for the first picks maybe onlye up to 5% in Lottery. Something like that, it is only an idea. But tanking is cheating, I hate to watch the Knicks tanking and then making bad draft picks on top. It is cheating the ppl who pays money home, in MSG, it is wasting time. And not much player developoment at all on the tanking roster. Maybe, if the fight hard, they would improve and are better next season. And how many rebuild season do we else need??? I have the feeling we never did a really rebuild since the 2014-15 season. So those year are only trash, nothing happened!!! Ok it was Phils failure. Regarding Mills and Perry, I actually don´t know if we will succeeding one with them. If the situation 2020 is similar they must get fired!!!! I wish there would be a position above Dolan who can fire him!!!!!

As constructed Toronto aka Jamestown will be a top four team in the Eastern Conference for another 4 yrs, minimum. Consistent sell outs, two all-stars, growing fan base (revenue) etc… and some folks here think this is a perfect time for owner to move away from this situation and go back to losing aka discounted tickets and lower merchandising revenue?

Every franchise/owner has the same goal, get to the top 4 teams in your conference and give yourself a shot at the finals and stay at the top four spot as long as possible. Injuries, sickness, player forced trades, veteran is picked of waivers, player surprises downside, life timing (players personal situations like family sickness, marriage, alcohol/drug abuse etc), poor referring (ex: Hubert Davis call or Charles Smith non call), someone gets hot and outplays their abilities, ejections and/or suspensions, perfect matchups, etc…are often X-factors and determine who wins a specific series.