(Sunday, March 04, 2018 10:26:07 PM)
SACRAMENTO, Calif. — Knicks coach Jeff Hornacek said because of “certain things,” he decided to stand pat with the starting lineup for Sunday’s game in Sacramento and not pull slumping Michael Beasley. Though Beasley made a big shot down the stretch during the Knicks’ comeback from a 19-point deficit, it was still another dud for…
(Sunday, March 04, 2018 6:55:20 PM)
SACRAMENTO, Calif. — The Knicks rallied from a 19-point deficit to tie the score in the final seconds. But a victory was not secured Sunday and the already dour mood of Knicks coach Jeff Hornacek did not improve much after his team absorbed its 40th loss of the season. “That’s how you’re supposed to play…
(Sunday, March 04, 2018 12:33:37 PM)
SACRAMENTO, Calif. — Knicks general manager Scott Perry, the former Kings executive, is attending the team’s four-game Western swing, though he took a detour Thursday to Tucson, Ariz., to catch Stanford at Arizona. Perry and his flock of new personnel men are ready to dance as conference tournaments commence and the NCAA Tournament beckons. This…
[NYDN] Examining Knicks GM Scott Perry’s up-and-down draft history (Sunday, March 04, 2018 8:52:40 PM)
It’s a cliché, of course, but it’s true: the NBA draft is a crapshoot.
[NYDN] Knicks fall to Kings on Skal Labissiere’s last second game-winner (Sunday, March 04, 2018 8:48:36 PM)
In a battle at the bottom, the Knicks showed they are somehow worse than the Kings.
(Monday, March 05, 2018 1:08:27 AM)
SACRAMENTO, Calif. — For three quarters, the Knicks played like a team that didn’t care about winning. They were fortunate that their opponent seemed to have that attitude for most of the fourth.
(Sunday, March 04, 2018 9:34:46 PM)
SACRAMENTO, Calif. — The days are winding down on the Knicks’ season and maybe Jeff Hornacek’s time as their coach. But he delivered a strong message to his players over the weekend, and it was by design.
(Sunday, March 04, 2018 11:49:38 PM)
Kings forward Skal Labissiere drained a three-pointer with 1.6 seconds left in Sacramento to hand the Knicks their fourth straight defeat, 102-99. The team has now lost 12 of its last 13 games.
(Sunday, March 04, 2018 5:46:00 PM)
The Knicks and Kings, both well out of playoff contention, play each other Sunday night in Sacramento.
100 replies on “Knicks Morning News (2018.03.05)”
It looks like he will be traded since he’s been racking up DNP’s and Hornacek stated he’d be focusing more on the younger players. There would be no minutes for him next year when you have Lee, Hardaway, Frank, Baker, Bridges ahead of him. It’s mind boggling that NYK are gonna have traded two young players who showed some promise each for a couple of 2nd round picks without having really given them a chance.
With Lee falling off, KOQ is becoming the clear choice for team MVP. He plays 17 mpg off the bench. Think about that.
Dolan:Mills/Perry:Hornacek::Dumb:Dumberer:Dumberest
The Phoenix GM used to be a video analyst for Celtics. I remember reading that he and Hornacek would go over analytics reports before every game. It was that memory plus him being a respected gritty ex-NBAer who Kerr liked which gave me hope that Horn might be a decent coach. But he’s been terrible in almost every respect. Regarding the analytics, he appears to be proof that a fool with a tool is still a fool.
My pick for next coach would be Shane Battier who’s director of analytics and player development for Heat. He’s a very smart guy and he might be how I had hoped Hornacek would turn out. Triple whatever Heat are paying him and maybe he’s interested. In fact, the best way to take advantage of Dolan’s willingness to spend is to try to pry away guys like him from other organizations by offering them more bucks. Instead we’ve gutted the scouting department which was the only bright light in the organization.
If we pass the Bulls and finish 8th in the tank race I’ll be happy. Anything better than that seems impossible considering how blatantly these teams are throwing games.
It’d be the epitome of Knicksy if we finished 9th but also 1 game out of an 8-way tie for first. (Then Charlotte leapfrogs us in the lottery.)
Why ISN’T Shane Battier a coach already somewhere? He seems like he would be perfect for the job.
That does seem to be the best realistic scenario.
I’d be ok with Shane Battier as our starting SF
Dudes – we very well could win only 1 or 2 games the rest of the season — the schedule is pretty tough. The only games in which we might theoretically be favored are home v Mavs 3/13, home v Bulls 3/19, and home v Magic on 4/3.
The Bulls on the other hand have a LOT of winnable games, with games against the Grizzlies x2, Hawks, Knicks, Magic, and Nets x 2.
The Nets have Mavs, Grizzlies, Magic, and Bulls — but they’re not trying to lose, so they may eke out 5 wins or so.
Anyway, I think it might honestly be a 50/50 shot of us passing getting at least to #8. The Bulls game in a couple weeks might be the clincher.
I think Hornacek needs to go. This is what, 3 seasons in a row that his teams have started ok and then tanked hard down the stretch? I kinda feel like good coaches are better able to hold their teams together than this.
Love the Battier idea. Between that idea, Fizdale, Blatt, and maybe JVG, there are a lot of good possibles out there. Not sure who else will be hiring guys, but none of those other teams have KP.
(1) He may not want to coach
(2) He may be open to coaching but Heat are paying him a lot of money
(3) Most teams just recycle the same garbage of former coaches
(4) He’s been somewhat outspoken against Trump; since most owners are pro Trump, they might not want him. BTW my main concern with Battier would be his ability to motivate others. His anti Trump statements show me he’s more than ready to step up when the situation demands it and he’s not just a low key nerdy type. He’d be the perfect successor to Pop.
Hornacek could be fading in the second half of the season because of something in the way he coached, but that’s only part of it. The team’s defense has been horrible since KP went down. And with Mudiay, Kanter and Beasley 60% of the starters, it’s hard to imagine it gets good. That’s on the front office. But they mostly played the hand they were dealt, since they were limited in how to trade Carmelo, and Beasley was fine as a backup and a good pickup for that purpose. So mostly our badness was baked in by previous decisions once KP was hurt.
btw Mudiay is really the stealth tank move of the season. Already a -21.6 on/off net rating for us. Mills/Perry are geniuses.
giving up a second round pick for good shot a better first one is worth it. But somehow I doubt that was Perry’s actual thoughts about the trade.
Team was already a flaming dumpster even before KP got hurt – just not quite as much of a dumpster.
It’s not just the wins and losses — in Phoenix he got into it with players also (Markieff Morris) – and now Noah.
Not true at all that we had to be this bad. We’ve won 1 out of the last 13 games. Hornacek’s whining about the defense but look at who he’s playing. IF the goal is to win and give some burn to younger players, this would be a much better distribution:
1: Burke (35) Frank (13)
2: Lee (32) Frank (16)
3: Hardaway (33) Dotson (15)
4: Lance (15) B (15) Williams (10) Hicks (8)
5: KOQ (25) Kanter (15) Kornet (8)
I’m not saying we should do that but if you take what NYK’s appear to want to do that would be the better approach. I’m on record before the all star break saying Burke would be a nice rotation player but he’s the greatest threat to the tank. I advocated limiting his minutes because of that and the fact he’d be on the team next year at which time we could give him plenty of minutes. I said we should play Mudiay 35mpg.
@Zanzibar – Good post and I agree.
Random question: Is Jerami Grant actually good his or no? He seems impactful when I’ve watched the Thunder play and his box score stats look solid and fairly promising at his age. The underlying metrics, like on/off are more clouded on how much of an impact he has. I think he’d be an interesting player to look at this summer and he’s unrestricted as well.
Trading Dotson would be awful. Not because he’s a legit asset (he hasn’t shown too much), but because it makes clear that the Knicks’ understanding of “player development” is “perform like a 10 year vet immediately or be benched in favor of 10 year vets during a lost season”
Utterly embarrassing. Remove everyone from their post.
I’m a fan. One of the lesser dumb Colangelo moves (and he has had a number of them in his relatively short time in Philly) was when he dumped Grant.
Random thoughts
Mudiay is so bad on both ends of the court right now, he could take a huge leap forward this off season and still only be worthy of an end of the bench slot. He’s so bad I can’t believe he’s actually this bad.
Lee, O’Quinn, and Beasley should not be getting a lot of minutes right now. It’s utterly ridiculous.
Hornacek said that one goal for the season was to improve the defense. Then he starts Mudiay, Kanter, and Beasley and wonders why our defense sucks.
It looks like Dotson is the latest victim of the pointless burial of a young Knicks prospect. The ridiculous part of this is that as far as I can tell, in his limited minutes, he looks like one of the better defenders on the entire team. Giving Frank and Dotson a look would be logical and it would probably be our best defensive backcourt.
I’m starting to think Mills and Perry are going to clean house of virtually everything “Phil”. First it was Hernangomez. It would not shock me if Dotson is traded in the off season. I wound’t even be shocked in Frank is put in play next year. We are going to build a team of Beasleys and Hardaways to match the basketball IQ of our management.
I like Jerami Grant, he plays very hard and within himself and contributes a lot to the team.
Compare the Knicks to the Kings now. The Kings ended up winning yesterday which is terrible for their draft position, but they played a crunch time lineup of Fox, Bogdanovic, Temple, Carter and Labissiere, with Hield, Mason and Jackson also gettting a lot of minutes. They won behind clutch plays by Bogdanovic and Labissiere. They have so many rookies and young players that these sorts of games are perfectly fine, as they are developmental steps for a roster full of youngsters with some upside.
We played O’Quinn, Lee and Beasley crunch time (plus Hardaway who’s a veteran at this point) and still lost.
If we draft Wendell Carter, then maybe an offer to Grant might make some sense.
If we draft Mikal Bridges, then maybe Julius Randle since Lakers may not match an MLE type offer since they are meticulous about preserving cap for this summer and next.
The Lakers have played an interesting gambit freeing up all that cap space. The goal this summer is Bron and George. They may get George but not Bron. If they get George, they then could try to pick off one of Kyrie, Butler, Kawhi(?) or some other star the following summer. If they whiff on both Bron and George this summer, they still could hope to sign two stars in summer of 2019.
Paradoxically it might be easier for a team like Lakers or Knicks to sign two stars in 2019 than one since it would make them contenders and therefore more attractive to each of the stars. If you’re wondering if Knicks could free up enough cap for 2 stars in 2019, here’s the #’s presuming we dump Lee for an expiring contract(s), stretch Noah, don’t re-sign KOQ, and don’t use MLE/BAE dollars that go into 2019-20.
Timmy…….. 18.1m
KP…………… 7.5m (QO cap hold)
Noah………. 6.5m
Frank……… 4.8m
Dotson……. 1.6m
Kornet……. 1.6m
2018 pick…. 3.1m
2019 pick …. 5.2m (presumes 5th seed)
6 cap holds.. 6m
————————————————–
TOTAL………About 54m
dotson is promising and probably the most promising out of all the young guys on the roster…. he could conceivably be the SF we need…. although he’s probably better at SG….
we have a logjam at the 2 spot… which means he’s the odd man out but we really shouldn’t be playing th2 at the 3…. it should be troy and dotson….
I’m wondering if Hornacek’s style as a coach is that he rides players in a way that they eventually get frustrated (like Noah) or tune him out. His rotations may also frustrate some players who wasn’t a more stable role.
Just a reminder that the Knicks finished the first half of the 14/15 season with a record of 5-36 including a streak where they lost 26 of 27 games. That was with a Carmelo playing most of the games.
Zanzibar you left out KANTER!
Its crazy the Knicks might win 3 to 6 less games than they did last year and end up with more teams in front of them with worse records. Tanking in the NBA isn’t a problem though. 🙂
Next year’s headlines:
“Knicks 10-72 record worst in franchise history”
“NBA Commissioner Adam Silver announces new lottery system, all non-playoff teams get equal odds”
Oh I’m already anticipating a brutal Knicks season next year, just in time for the flattening of the lottery odds. We’ll finish with the 2nd worst record but draft 5th.
#KnicksGonnaKnick
Headline this summer:
Adam Silver strips Chicago, Orlando, Mavs of their 2018 draft picks.
Commissioner Silver stated they all went too far in tanking when the NYK unveiled their new stealth weapon Mudiay playing him 45mpg. Mark Cuban stated: It’s not fair at all. Mudiay was like the surprise WW2 V-2 rocket dropped out of nowhere and terrorizing all of us. What did you expect us to do? Cuban claimed Silver should have penalized the NYK as well. Silver then fined Cuban $500K for his impudence adding: They gave up a 2nd round pick and McBuckets for the guy. It was legitimate for them to play him and hope a change of scenery might flip a switch.
@20
The thing is also that the Lakers might just be good. They’re 17-7 since they broke a 9 game losing streak in the beginning of january, with Ball, Ingram, Kuzma and Randle all showing pretty good performances.
If they get PG and a decent Center they could start a Ball / PG / Ingram / Kuzma / center lineup that could honestly become very scary, even if they do whiff on Lebron.
@27
In a 4 man draft of course.
Though people are going nuts about the tankathon this year, I don’t think it’s indicative of a permanent trend. Next year’s change to the lottery odds has prompted a bunch of teams to bottom out now while they still have a chance. Only Phoenix, Atlanta, and Chicago can be credibly accused of a long-term tank plan. Brooklyn was never trying to lose; they just suck.
Memphis, Orlando, Dallas, Sacto, and New York were all trying to win at the beginning of the season, then changed strategies once their seasons spiraled out of control. They all know that tanking will be much more futile next year because of the new odds. I’ll be surprised if more than 3-4 teams tank this blatantly next season.
I count 6 of our 18 remaining games as “winnable” (we’ll be slight favorites or dogs). Of Chicago’s 20 remaining games, 9 are winnable. Let’s say both teams win 2/3 of their winnable games (including maybe a steal of another game.) That would give the Knicks 4 more wins, or 28 for the season. Chicago would have 6 more wins, or 27 for the season.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but the only noise about trading Dotson is Begley’s tweet which said other teams want to target him in trade — not that the Knicks want to trade him… right?
@33 Exactly. People need to calm down on here.
@33 and @34
I interpreted Begley’s tweet as coming from Dotson’s agent. I saw it as the first shot fired by a disgruntled agent threatening a trade request. Another basketball writer interpreted it that way also. I could easily be reading something into it that’s not there, but I don’t see sources at other teams telling Begley they may target Dotson unless the word is out that Dotson is not happy getting buried at a time they are supposed be developing young players.
Yeah the Lakers have been fun for awhile. The switch may have been turned on for Ingram and Randle.
If I were them I’d see what I could get for Ball (Deandre?, Kawhi?) and sign LeBron if that’s what he wants.
The knicks have one very good (not great) player.
As KP watches games in his living room with his brother, manager, Janis, I imagine they’re conversation often focuses on weighing the pro’s and cons of signing a big money extension with the knicks, or planning a reboot.
KP had one simple request from this organization – start going in the right direction. From the clusterfuck of last season, it seemed simple enough. That hasn’t happened.
Don’t forget, KP had to backtrack his brother’s comments that no matter where he played, he was going to get paid well, and money wasn’t the sole criteria for them.
Also, when Phil was shopping him last off season, KP was surprised and happy that elite players of the league reached out, telling him they’d welcome him on their teams.
Connect the dots.
Dotson is a rookie who was the 44th pick in the draft. His agent has no right to be disgruntled about playing time.
@ 37 – or maybe KP is watching games in the living room with his brother and realizing that right now there are really just 2 actual contenders in the NBA…Houston and GSW. And then a small tier of second contender/pretenders (Cleveland, Boston, Toronto, San Antonio, etc). And there are teams with legit all stars better than him (NO comes to mind), that are barely playoff teams because they are equally mismanaged. And that there are a bunch of bottom dwellers that are equally bad or worse than the Knicks.
And as he’s talking to his brother he and his brother will realize that the Knicks are gonna have a top ten pick this year and next year and a first rounder every year going forward and by the time he’s back and up to full speed they’ll have cap space opening up from Lee, LT and Noah all leaving. And that they all ready have him and Frank and Hardaway along with some other young players that could be parts of a good team in the future (Burke, Williams, Dotson, Kanter?, Ron?). And that he can make the most money staying with The Knicks.
Things are really not as bad as they seem. This is what I hate about tanking. You guys all advocate for it but when the L’s start piling up you can only be negative about the organization and not see the positives. This year really has been drama free and the early season should prove to KP that he can be the centerpiece or one of the centerpieces on a good team. Things are very different right now if Hardaway isn’t out for 5 weeks in December and January.
Besides the Noah issue things have been pretty drama free this year if you actually ignore the press for the most part. Perry has been very low-key and quiet about his moves and the drama show from the Phil/Melo saga is long in the rearview. Is Horns the man to stay here while we rebuild? I don’t know but even not waiving Noah to me shows a really good restraint. Why do something rash now when you aren’t even sure what the deal with Horns for next year is.
@39
I agree with you.
Sure, I imagine they’re going to take everything into consideration.
As far as tanking, I believe it’s idiotic for a multitude of reasons, all things considered.
I’m not going to argue the merits of his agent saying something because it was all just speculation on my part. However, another frustrated 2nd round pick of ours got himself traded by complaining about playing time.
If we are talking about players earning their time based on merit, Mudiay should be buried. He’s bad on both sides of the court. So something is driving his playing time other than merit.
If we are talking about development, Lee’s minutes should be sharply reduced to make room for Dotson.
If you ask me, Dotson is one of the few decent defenders on the team and we know he can shoot if left open. I see no reason he shouldn’t be getting 10 of Lee’s minutes.
Here’s the thing with Mudiay starting. I get that people think he shouldn’t because Burke is better right now and Frank is at least better on defense and everyone thinks he should be our starting PG of the future.
But here’s the deal. We have 3 more years after this to evaluate and groom Frank. And he may not be a PG when its all said and done. He might be our starting 2 or 3 who has playmaking ability and is paired with another combo type guard (maybe Mudiay, maybe not).
And Burke, while great, tops out as a 6th man, second unit PG. You do not want a PG that short as your starting PG if you are serious about competing eventually. As admirably as he’s performed on defense, he is never going to be a positive on that end. At best he’s neutral and gives you a lot of scoring and some playmaking which is perfect for a bench role. I’m glad we got him and hope we hold on to him but he is not our starting PG of the future.
Mudiay could be that guy. I mean, the odds are long but he’s got the physical tools for it. He could be a plus defender if he learned because he’s big (like Frank). And he has that PG mentality and can dish out assists and push the tempo. He just sucks at shooting and finishing and makes a lot of mental mistakes on both sides of the floor. That’s a problem but its hopefully fixable but we only have him for this year and next year. So start him so we can hopefully groom him into that role. And even if he doesn’t work out, this next season is pretty much lost anyways. Its low risk, high reward. And if it doesn’t work out we still have time to develop Frank. Plus I don’t get people getting so worked up about specific positions. Frank and Mudiay could in theory really work well together as a one two combo.
one good to really good player can change everything…. right now things look bleak but all it really takes is a draft pick to pan out to turn things around….
we have some mediocre players… but if kp turns into a real player and we draft another one like him… things look a lot better… but the key is getting those kind of players…
that’s why last year’s draft was so important…. and this year’s is even more important…. there isn’t a lot of time to assemble a core before you get fired and so you have to maximize the bullets that you do have…
Come on, this year has been drama free for Knicks standards only, and those are unrealistically yet amazingly repetitive standards. This is not a plus, this is a “less bad” situation.
Like I said before, I would be very happy to be tanking like Sacramento is. Playing every young guy on the roster and yes, having two or three veterans around them. I’m not happy with the 10th oldest team in the league coming to a situation where the front office fails once again to realize the ceiling of its own squad, is capped out for the next year AND has little young talent to speak of.
If THJ played the entire season we would be in Charlotte’s position, which is pretty much as bad as it gets in the NBA. And see, it’s one thing to be in Charlotte’s position with Charlotte’s roster, and a very different thing to be in the same position like the Lakers are having a bunch of promising dudes and lots of cap space. Hardaway has regressed this year, not developed.
I still refuse to give Mills and Perry credit for not shitting on the rug.
It’s deja vu all over again re: mudiay.
If player x just learns how to do three things he’s shown no aptitude for in the past, we just might have a player on our hands.
It’s such a con.
we’re only nine and a half games out of 8th place…
let’s go knicks…
OK….here’s a statistical breakdown on Damyean Dotson:
-Players with more than his 250 total NBA minutes at age 23 yrs, 10 months: Half the friggen league.
-People who have heard of him: The 30 of us, plus his friends and family
-Odds I would have spelled his first name correctly if I didn’t look it up; 15% (I did not know there was a “y”, and I can spell “Edmund Sherod” without googling it
-Chance “DD” will ever be on “Modern Fishing with Jared Jeffries”: 5%.
@42
I don’t have a problem with Mudiay getting minutes. I have a problem with Dotson not getting minutes. If we are in developmental mode (which we should be at this stage), then we should be finding some time for Dotson too. We are still using some kind of half baked strategy where O’Quinn, Lee, Beasley, Hardaway and Kanter are getting a lot of minutes. It appears as though winning the game is still part of the thinking. That doesn’t make much sense to me. Maybe Dotson and Hernangomez both just stink, but Willy looked OK last year and Dotson has looked pretty good on D at times this year. I want to see Dotson get a fair shake at being whatever he can be before we bail on him or he asks to leave like Willy .
But, again, why the hell should we even attempt in the first place to give minutes for Mudiay in the hope that he gets better at 3 or 4 things he’s been completely terrible at in 2.5 years instead of simply just playing Burke and Ntilikina?
Start Burke, start Lee and give him his 10 minutes per game so the toxicity from hell of the tanking doesn’t curse this immaculate franchise, give Ntilikina and Dotson every single other minute. It’s actually very easy.
I do kinda love Mudiay because I’m convinced he’s a top 5 contributor to losses in the league, but as it became obvious yesterday this team is not tanking at all. Why then? Maybe our coach and our front office are, just throwing it out there, kinda shit at evaluating players?
I want to see Dotson as well, but I can understand why he doesn’t play due to the 9 SGs on the team. I’ve been calling for him to get SF mins since October, but it’s clear that’s just pissing into the wind at this point.
I do not think mudiay should be getting Frank’s pg minutes. I’d rather have Dotson play pg than mudiay. That’s what I think of mudiay.
Edit: Ideally, Dotson should be getting Frank’s SG mins, and Frank should be getting Mudiay’s PG mins.
@20, @39
KPs cap hold in 2019 is 17m, not 7m. If we sign him to an extension his 2019 value is whatever year one is of that extension – up to 27m.
We’re threading the eye of the needle on 2019 cap space. With rookie deals, cap holds etc we’re slated to have less than one max slot as it stands. As you say Zanzibar, that’s without spending any MLE money, any second round pick money and any money on our own FAs this summer Koq) or next (Kanter, Burke, Mudiay).
If we can trade Lee for literally nothing AND stretch Noah AND hold off on an extension for KP AND do all the above we can get to about $45m in space depending on the cap – with the lowest max (for the least experienced players) being c$27m.
So if we strip our team to it’s core and send out assets with nothing in return, we can get to 1.5ish max contracts.
Half-baked solution for addressing NCAA corruption:
1) All players become draft-eligible at age 18. Drafted players must play at least one full season in the G-League, at a salary commensurate with draft position.
2) Any player that signs a letter of commitment to any NCAA college automatically can’t be drafted until 3 years after June 1 of their freshman year.
This would actually help NCAA basketball by re-creating teams that stay together and gel, fostering the notion of a student-athlete that actually has to attend classes for three years (and is close enough to graduation to consider finishing up later) and adding pressure to consider revenue-sharing with student-athletes.
This would help the NBA by making the G-League more attractive and competitive, and enable teams to develop players in a more NBA-oriented environment.
Thoughts?
Gee, and people foolishly thought that the Knicks were in bad shape!
@52 I think #2 is a non-starter for me. That’s too close to indentured servitude. You’re telling a kid he can’t earn in the NBA for 3 years while his college is profiting off of him.
Damn Negative Nancys!
Let’s face it, Courtney Lee is never getting traded. He’s the next Allan Houston of the organization.
I would simply allow high school kids to go pro straight up and work to make the G-League an attractive destination.
If more potential stars play in the G-League the games will attract a lot more interest and it can truly become a developmental league. The most NBA ready players would be able to practice and be with their teams from the start, and the more raw ones would have the developmental league as a stepping stone to prove themselves.
I don’t care about giving anything back to the NCAA to be honest, lesser prospects would still want the scholarship and the benefits of a college education and the die hard fans would still follow it anyway. They shouldn’t be gifted a rule that forces young players to stay in college for x amount of years, unless they make contracts and get rid of the shady quasi-slavery thing. Either compensate those kids or cease to exist, I don’t care.
I don’t think we are in such horrible shape. A lot depends on KP coming back 100%, Frank developing, and making a very good pick either this year and/or next year, but I’ll take all those “ifs” over being capped out with older players on the downside like we have been for much of our recent history. Part of trying to develop much of the core via draft is the uncertainty over whether any of the picks will develop into star players. It reminds me of that scene from Godfather 2. “This is the business we’ve chosen”.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=io43ak_Vias
I’m way more concerned about the competency of management than the position we are in right now.
I personally don’t think we are in too bad shape. 11 players on our 15 man roster are 25 and under and we have a nice amount of 1st and 2nd round picks going forward. Would be nice to have an extra couple of firsts over the next few years, and the cap space is still an issue, but overall it’s not as bleak as previous years. The onus is on the FO now to stick to their guns. If they are dead serious about the youth movement, then you need to move Lance, Lee in the off-season and not re-sign KOQ and Beasley. Even then KOQ and Beasley would be okay as vets on the right deals.
If the FO really commits to building a young roster, then I would have no problem with giving Hornacek the keys, if only to see what he could do with a team that isn’t half trying to rebuild, and half trying to push for a low seed in the playoffs.
I agree with Bruno that there’s no reason to pander to the NCAA. It’s a cartel rife with corruption whose specific purpose is to suppress the rights of its laborers. Why would we want to give them concessions? Because of nostalgia for a time when they played “good” basketball, and made less money than they do now?
Abolish the NCAA and/or give the players free-market rights, and then we can talk solutions.
Also, THJ really needs to show some signs of consistency.
The top priority for the knicks is development of their young players. Unfortunately, all their projects seem to regress under this organization’s fine tutelage.
Man, going into this year the Bulls were supposed to be a shoe-in for worst record in the league. They replaced Jimmy Butler with Justin Holiday, for godsakes. And yet here we are in March, a game up in the loss column.
Never underestimate how bad a Knick season can be, people!
I don’t know why the players association ever agreed to the Done and 1 system.
“We don’t want to risk drafting high school graduates because they might bust.”
“Okay, so then don’t draft high school graduates.”
“But then they might become stars like KG and Kobe!”
“Okay, so then draft high school graduates.”
“But they might bust!”
“Okay, so then don’t draft high school graduates.”
“Can’t you just protect us from our own stupidity?”
The Bulls kinda actually did what many of us wanted the Knicks to do… they sorted their cap situation to a very good place, they traded their star and got real assets from it and put the young guys to play. Outside of Lopez and Holiday their entire rotation has consisted on 25 and under guys, with Markkanen, Dunn, Lavine, Valentine and Portis all playing big minutes.
They’re the sort of team that’s fine with not getting a top 3 pick for the cost of some wins here and there because there’s plenty of guys to continue developing this year and next year. Of course they would rather do it and end up with Doncic or Ayton but it’s the right process, as much shit as GarPax received for how they went about it.
Arguing about whether the players should be paid (obviously if the current system stays they should be) skips right past the obvious (once considered) point that it makes absolutely no sense for Duke University and the University of Kentucky to have minor league basketball teams in the first place.
I honestly think the healthiest solution is probably to just disentangle what’s effectively the minor leagues for two major American sports from institutions of higher education all together. I’d just get rid of athletic scholarships for college sports, and let real minor leagues replace the market gap that would be left. Colleges would still have club sports but it wouldn’t be big business and the whole toxic culture would be done away with. Obviously it’ll never happen because there’s a huge amount of $$$ in play, not only for all the sports stakeholders but also for the universities that have sadly tied their entire identities (and consequently fundraising) to a football team that has less than nothing to do with the core mission of the institution. The whole situation is messed up from its most basic point.
International leagues stand to benefit massively with any NCAA fall out. Not every kid coming out of high school is necessarily interested in or meant for college. Playing pro overseas is starting to become a legitimate stepping stone to the NBA. The pay is good and the lifestyle is pretty great as well from all accounts. Plus you only need to look at the last few lotteries with multiple euros making the transition.
I know our Australian league is floating the idea of creating a developmental pathway in light of a few US imports and local players spending time in the league (e.g. Terrance Ferguson, Torrey Craig, James Ennis, Joe Ingles) and making the transition to the NBA. Still really just a pie in the sky idea at this stage though.
The main thing that pisses me off about Mudiay (besides giving up a second round pick for a terrible player) is it exposes just how hollow the whole “meritocracy” argument was when it came to Willy.
Clearly, the organization makes considerations other than current production when deciding who plays. Otherwise Mudiay would never see so much as G league minutes. That’s perfectly fine by me! They should be making those kinds of considerations (player evaluation, development, etc.).
Yet for some reason, Willy was told he had to be a better player than Kanter/KOQ in his second NBA season if ever wanted to see the floor. Not to mention the fact that we clearly could’ve used him after KP went down, we clearly could’ve waited for a better offer in the offseason, and I clearly could just root for a different team and not be angry all the time.
I just assume that Mudiay’s practices are amazing. Practices that we don’t see and therefore can’t prove what happens in them are typically the reason for why the Knicks do the things that they do and not incompetence.
Well, but if we are to assume he plays this well in practice and then sucks so much during games, there’s gotta be some degree of institutional incompetence involved right? Does Lance Thomas kill every practice too?
I don’t buy it too much Brian, I’m sorry.
I was thinking that if the NBA competed for the best players, the NCAA would have to cave and start paying players. Players would have to choose between essentially signing a 3-year contract with the school (schools could have a “salary cap” of some kind to keep things fair at the college level) or being drafted and immediately starting in the G-League and playing there for 1 year at a rookie salary scale based on draft position. I don’t see it as pandering to the NCAA, in fact, it’s quite the opposite, you would be forcing them to pay their best players for a 3-year period at some semblance of their market value, or risk losing them to the direct route to the NBA.
Think about it: how many players in the one-and-done class of 2018 would have gone straight to the NBA if they knew that they would not be NBA-eligible for 3 years if they attended college? College basketball would surely get watered down (just like college baseball). But I wonder if viewership would suffer much, since the NCAA product might actually benefit from losing most of the true NBA prospects like, say, Deandre Ayton, to the early draft and having the lesser (but still very talented) guys like Villanova’s Kris Jenkins become the 4-year stars of the NCAA. Jenkins is still getting $60+K of free education at an elite college plus the free publicity via TV exposure, plus perhaps whatever salary/profit-sharing arrangement that the NCAA comes up with.
But then why not just simply remove the One and Done rule? Wouldn’t that alone resolve most of the issues (not the inherent unfairness of the NCAA making money off of the college athletes, of course, but that doesn’t look like it will ever go away) by letting the best players just skip college all together? So the guys who stick around would be the ones who are okay with being just college athletes.
I was done in by Poe’s Law!
Also, to clarify, it’s not the NCAA that would make players ineligible, but the NBA. They would be telling the best players: either skip college altogether and come straight to us, or see you in three years. That would increase their leverage over the NCAA in competing for players and then developing their assets correctly (or in the Knicks’ case, incorrectly) for the NBA game.
Brian, the kicker is that one-and-done players are not ready for the NBA anyway, and would be well served by a year or two in the minor leagues. I think that the way things stand, there’s way too much pressure to put 18 yo’s on the NBA roster without developing them properly. A mandatory year (or maybe eve 2) in the G-League could be the answer to that.
But if you still make it possible to be a one-and-done player, the benefit of playing in college for a year and getting all of that marketing and TV exposure to lift your draft stock would still be there. In a way, players like Brandon Jennings and Emmanuel Mudiay could have been 1-and-done players, but chose to go pro overseas and make far more up front than had they played in college (possibly covering up their flaws that would have been exposed in the NCAA, but I digress.) Yet most top college players still opt in for that year in college rather than playing in Europe or Asia.
I have a more middle of the road view on the “value” proposition with regard to college sports.
Colleges make a huge investments in their sports programs. It costs a lot of money to build arenas, training facilities, hire the best coaches, staff, scouts, etc… Just like any other business, they are entitled to a risk adjusted return on their investment.
They also offer value to their customers (which in this case is not just the fans).
If I am talented 17 year old basketball player, do I want to go Joe Blow U or do I want to go to Kentucky, Duke, North Carolina etc.. where I will get the best coaching, best training, use of the best equipment, facilities and medical staff, have all the major NBA teams scouting me, appear on national TV lots of times, and have the major sneaker and other interested companies knowing all about me.
There’s a huge potential advantage to the player from attending one of the right schools. If there wasn’t a payoff from attending these schools, all the best prospects would go to Europe or Asia to play where they could get paid the market value for their talents immediately. Most don’t do it because they perceive going to play for Calipari a better deal even though they won’t get paid.
I’m not smart enough to know what the right system is or what the fair compensation should be, but it’s not as simple as saying colleges are generating a lot of revenue and the kids are not getting paid therefore it’s a terribly abusive system. There are huge investments involved, value given back, and free market alternatives if the kids want to get paid.
Again, I just don’t know what the right system is.
The thing is that most franchises, especially the ones drafting top 10, would most likely not be ok at all with their draftees having to play in the G-League. Think about the Lakers for example with Ball, and the whole excitement around him from the fans, or if Atlanta or Memphis drafts Doncic, those teams will want him to play right away to bring the fans to games, generate interest / marketing opportunities etc. Even if in terms of basketball pretty much every player would benefit from an additional year of development, I don’t think franchises would be on board with this.
Then there’s the case of the rookies who are indeed ready to play right away, who would be getting “punished” in a way (them and their teams) by being forced to play in the developmental league.
I think maybe a clause where there’s a call up period, like the september call ups in baseball could work. Players would start in the G-League but then teams would be allowed to call up their high school first round picks to the pros I don’t know, at the all star break or for a specific period of time.
I like the idea of involving the G-League, but to be honest I think the most realistic possibility is to get rid of one and dones and make salaries higher on the G-League. The reason some players go to Europe or China over the G-League is money, mostly, simply because the G-League has terrible wages and bad conditions overall.
Going to Europe or Asia is a huge thing for 18-year-olds to do, especially when they “know” that they’ll be drafted by a North American team in a year. In a choice between college for a year or Asia for a year, I can see a lot of guys choosing college. Now, college for a year or the NBA, they’re almost all going to say “NBA.”
And the ones who don’t, well, then there ya go, NCAA, those are your new stars. 🙂
Aren’t you an avowed capital-L Libertarian? How could you possibly hold this opinion and be a champion of free-market solutions?
i really think the current system is fine…. that one year in college tells you a whole lot about a player and there’s a lot of evidence to suggest that subsequent years are just added noise….
the ncaa has a problem…. but getting rid of the one and done rule just filters the problem down to high schools… and it’s not like high schools and aau don’t have a whole lot of issues now either…
Oh, look! Larry Nance has scored 20 points on 12 shots with 12 rebounds and 0 turnovers in 23 minutes against Drummond.
I was under the impression that a no-offense dunker like Nance couldn’t put up that kind of volume against a strong defense.
You think it’s fine? Fine for whom? The schools, coaches and the NBA? What about the players, bro? Who gives a fuck whether subsequent years are “added noise?” Sounds like monopoly-loving bullshit to me.
Jowles u mixed up libertarian and capital L libertarian but your point stands, thus my post.
I’m sure it’s obvious here, but nothing makes me seethe more than average joe citizens doing mental gymnastics to protect the interests of our nation’s elite.
The NCAA exploits “student-athletes” t0 make money. The colleges and universities profit from this exploitation as well. No solution that excludes cash payments to students will be sufficiently just for the “student-athletes.” D1 football and basketball players make NCAA sports a billion-dollar industry — they deserve to be paid accordingly.
@SBondyNYDN
yeah but the upside
I’m on the same page here with you commie pinkos Bruno and jowles 🙂
The ncaa is not a free market.
That’s why I would like the One and Done rule to go away, as well. Its removal would screw over the NCAA and the owners, but it gives the players the most freedom, so I like that result the best.
I’m not a communist. I’m advocating for laborers to be paid rather than being “honored” to play under “scholarship” for an “academic institution.”
We could see Mudiay play 40 mpg and still not lose as badly as the Bulls are losing — to a Celtics team playing without Kyrie Irving!
And I believe laborers are entitled to the fruits of their labor. Nobody is entitled to your shit.
i think it’s fine for everyone… the ncaa benefits of course but the nba benefits with knowing the players a lot more than they did in hs… you get a lot more certainty with who you’re drafting that college does for them….
the players have the most to lose but it really only affects the best of the best…. someone like jahlil okafor has no where to go but down… and he did.. he was consensus #1 ahead of towns and everyone.. and he wound up lower than that…. a lot of other folks wind up increasing their stock substantially… someone like trae young is a good example…
yea the players will get paid but if you’re a real nba prospect your payday will come…. what matters is whether or not the marginal players will get paid and if they can develop in that environment… the gleague has to be a lot more than what it is now in order to support that and quite frankly i don’t think the economics is never gonna be right for that… the ncaa has always been a free developmental league and it’s pretty tough to beat free…..
and i absolutely do advocate that ncaa players should get paid…. if the ncaa dropped that shroud i think all parties would be fine with that….. but right now the system benefits everyone for the purposes of identifying nba ready players…. how non-nba players get compensated is an entirely diff story….
Well, if by communist you mean something completely entirely unrelated to every autoritarian experience, leftist or rightist, yup, here I am.
The thing that irritates me about the NCAA is the idea of young, generally poor and black people, being “gifted” scholarships to produce millions of dollars for universities and the NCAA. That’s all. I’m not against sport related scholarship or college sports, but against this bs that somehow colleges “pay back” what they receive from these talented people.
They don’t and it doesn’t even come close to it. It annoys me that these guys have control over a young player’s choice of dedicating him or herself to a sport as a profession.
Yes, obviously going to a big program benefits players in some ways, but I am sure a top prospect in the end makes a lot more for his school than he gets for himself. I don’t think the NCAA should completely die but they shouldn’t have control over these young people’s careers for their own profit.
Bruno, “commie” was meant as a joke. I even used a smiley face. I hate commies, socialists and progressives; the idea that someone is entitled to your labor or service or property is offensive to me.
I know man, that’s why I answered in what I think at least is a light hearted way. It’s more difficult to convey context as a non-native speaker I guess.
Every competitor for the tankathon has lost today, damn.
Bulls with a statement loss tonight.
“You think you can out tank us NY, think again!!”
And, per usual, you are dead wrong.
Man, Isaiah Thomas looks completely done, like Derrick Rose kinda done.
5/20 for the game, last possession he misses a free deadball foul free throw AND turns it over trying to get a shot on the possession. Holy crap.
I think what I described IS the free market at work.
Players have a free market choice. They can go play for Calipari and gain all the advantages of a great coaching staff, his promotion, national exposure on TV, getting scouted by NBA scouts, and getting noticed by major corporations or they can go to Europe or Asia (like the Ball brothers) and get paid immediately. A free market also allows for the NBA to draft kids at whatever age it deems to be in its own best interests as a business and citizen. Everyone can also change their minds.
I don’t know which is the better value proposition. However, most kids choose school. That’s telling you something about the value proposition. I strongly suspect that if enough top young players do what the Ball family is doing, it will ultimately hurt the college game and reduce the revenue to those schools. So then the market will dictate that they improve the deal they are offering young players when they recruit them so they don’t opt to leave the country. Paying them might be the solution.
It will all get sorted out over the long haul depending on the values of the players (by players here I mean the basketball players, the NBA, European and Asian teams that will be recruiting also, agents, G-League, etc..)
A free market is not you and I deciding we think “fair” is kids getting paid in college or drafted right out of high school.
Just to add to this briefly:
1.We don’t even know the return on capital that most universities are getting on their sports programs. It may not be all that much better than other good businesses.
2. In my early 30s I sent a letter to Warren Buffett offering to PAY HIM to work for him. In my mind, the value of paying to work for HIM was greater than getting paid to do similar work for someone else. He rejected the offer. lmao