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Knicks’ Josh Hart Responds to Jalen Brunson Trolling Him with Sleeping Photo on IG – BleacherReport
Friday Posted & Toasted Notes: Hungry KAT, paid Hart, talkative Shaq – Posting & Toasting
Knicks Notes: Jack Kayil to play overseas this season; what’s next for Tyler Nickel – SNY
The definitive top Knicks head coaches of all-time – Posting & Toasting
Why this is the most important season of Miles McBride’s Knicks career – SNY
What “New York, We Here!” meant to Knicks fans #JuliusRandle #NBA #Knicks – Knicks Film School
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126 replies on “Knicks Morning News (2026.08.24)”
first…
Man, doggiest of dog days. Maybe time for a Question of the Day, bringing back a discussion from the weekend, in two parts:
1. Is the Knicks Mt. Rushmore definitively Willis, Walt, Patrick, and Jalen? If not, who is being swapped in and out?
2. Who is in the rest of your all-time Knicks top 10?
I’m the person over the weekend who said that, while I’m not quite there yet, I’m getting warmer to putting OG on Mt. Knick Rushmore.
I certainly think he’s played a significant role in bringing the team to where it is right now.
Also, Mount Rushmore famously has four faces on it. Unless you watch the movie North by Northwest (highly recommended), you don’t really see the brush underneath.
If I’m asked to design Mt. Knick Rushmore, I’m definitely climbing half way down the mountain and inserting a sculpture in the brush of Jeff Van Gundy hanging onto Alonzo Mourning’s leg.
In no order and without deep thought (because I didn’t cut the list to the last six of the top ten):
Bernard King, Alan Houston, Dave DeBusschere, Earl the Pearl, JR Smith, Carmelo (reluctantly), Jeremy Lin, Oakley, Starks, Richie Guerin.
“Owensays:
August 24, 2026 at 03:52
PCA will win it unless Sho gets back to pitching”
Which he is indeed doing, per The Athletic Windup:
He’s Back
Ohtani returns to the mound
Shohei Ohtani, a ballplayer of some renown, will reprise his role as two-way unicorn for the Dodgers in the near future. He threw a live session Saturday, facing hitters for the first time since July 3, and could be in line to start — in more of an opener role — Sunday against the Tigers.
There was a time earlier this season when it was not out of the realm of possibility for Ohtani to win both NL MVP and Cy Young. The former would have been no shock: Ohtani has won four MVPs already. But the latter would have been perhaps Ohtani’s greatest feat yet. Through 10 starts this season, Ohtani had a 0.74 ERA in 61 innings. Through 14 starts, he had a 1.79 ERA in 85 2/3 innings.
With Ohtani playing through left knee and right biceps discomfort, the Dodgers pushed pause on his pitching in early July. The build-up has been methodical. After all, the Dodgers are all right in the starting pitching department — their options this October could include Yoshinobu Yamamoto, Tarik Skubal, Blake Snell, Tyler Glasnow, Roki Sasaki, Justin Wrobleski, Eric Lauer and Kris Bubic.
Ohtani won’t have a shot at a Cy Young this season. We’ll have to settle for him providing only a potentially all-time MVP battle with Pete Crow-Armstrong.
Those two 70s teams were stacked with all-stars and hall of famers.
JB carried a bunch of role players and a mentally flawed all star who scored 11, 13 and 2 points in the last three games of NBA finals to the mountain top.
He may be the greatest NBA player ever when it comes to the ability to solve defenses.
Jalen Brunson is the greatest Knick of all time.
I am dealing with an excruciating gout in my big toe situation so answering this question is just the distraction I need until the meds kick in.
The indisputable Mount Rushmore:
Willis
Clyde
Brunson
Patrick
My next six:
DeBusschere
Monroe
OG
Bernard
Barnett
Bradley
-Brunson can move up to #1 with another title.
-To pass Earl and/or Dave, OG would have to do something like what he did again.
-KAT is a top-10 lock if he sticks around for 2-3 more years.
-Bernard is a controversial pick because he only played 203 games with the Knicks, but at his peak, he may have been the best player in Knicks history, and his stats over his 18 playoff games, included single-handedly putting a scare into one of the greatest teams of all time, are very compelling.
-Mikal and Josh are certainly within shouting distance of displacing Bradley and Barnett.
-I know there are folks who would put Melo in the top 10, but I’m not one of them.
In points scored Allan Houston is 4th all-time in Knicks history and he had a bunch of huge playoff games and moments. He’s gotta be top 10 all-time.
I agree Melo is a tough pick but he did win a scoring title and has the franchise record for pts scored in a game. His first 4 seasons as a Knick he was really fucking good.
“He may be the greatest NBA player ever when it comes to the ability to solve defenses.”
lol
“In points scored Allan Houston is 4th all-time in Knicks history and he had a bunch of huge playoff games and moments. He’s gotta be top 10 all-time.”
Sorry BBA, I couldn’t disagree more. He was actually a rather mediocre playoff performer with the Knicks. He was also a poor rebounder, passer, and defender.
Over the dead of the weekend I suggested that it might be more interesting to conduct these exercises without the 70’s Knicks. Approximately three of us watched them, and they are so good they crowd out all the interesting conversations.
The only thing really worth discussing in a Knicks Mt Rushmore, for instance, is if anyone should be put ahead of Patrick. A Knicks Mt Rushmore of the last 45 years, on the other hand, opens up tons of possibilities (I’d go Brunson, King, Ewing, OG).
I ended up using the all-nba format and devising three all-Knicks-from-1980 teams using traditional positions and it was surprisingly fun. Either might be worth a go if you’re bored.
Allan Houston in 60 playoff games as a Knick averaged 19ppg with 45/42/88 shooting splits.
Fascinating proposition.
Do you separate him from the guys who had cheat codes? Like Kareem could solve any defense by using the sky hook, Jordan could just beat you one-on-one no matter what you did, and Steph could just pull up from 40 feet.
The reason I noted above that I was reluctant to put Carmelo in the top ten (and dare I say even in the top 20) is that he was an impossibly good scorer, but he was also IMHO a seriously one-dimensional player.
I cannot recall a single game when I saw him play serious defense, or make anyone around him better through assists or rebounding. And I watched every single painful game during those years.
I don’t really blame Melo for taking a great deal to join the Knicks. For that, the fault lies entirely with he who shall not be named. But it’s certainly the case that Melo arrived on a deal that threw away the entire team that might have supported him. He’s a great player, but Wilson Chandler, Raymond Felton, Danilo Gallinari, and Timofey Mozgov was too steep a price to pay.
I forgot how bad KAT was in those last three games.
He did enough in the playoffs to cement himself as an unassailable Knicks legend. There’s no question about that.
But that has nothing to do with how much we can count on him going forward. Even in his best playoffs he disappeared a lot. The foul trouble in games 4 &5 was absurd.
Who is in the rest of your all-time Knicks top 10?
Tier 1
Clyde
Patrick
Wilt
Brunson
Tier 2
Oakley – 3rd in minutes played.
Tier 3a
DeBus
Starks
Monroe
Kurt
Bradley
Mason
Mitch – Highest eFG%, 2p%, OREB%, Block%, ORAT, WS/48, second in TS% (Jericho Sims)
Tier 3b – Depends on how you view the olde days.
Gallatin
Braun
Tier 4 – current players – let’s see how much they play for NYK, before adding them above
OG
KAT
Tier 5 – players that I would definitely rank higher than Melo
King
Houston
Kurt
Bradley
Mason
Tier 6 – players that I might rank higher than Melo
Ward
Hart
Melo had some monster rebounding games as a Knick and he did also have some high assist games although not as many as he could’ve and should’ve had.
I think we downplay too much just how good he was on the court his first 4 seasons as a Knick. But I too have a hard time putting him in a Top 10 list because of how many different players contributed to all the playoff teams of the 90s and now we have this new championship core. Not to mention obviously the core of the 1970 and 1973 championship teams.
Damn Miike no love for Spree? I know his efficiency numbers were pretty bad even for that era but he was fun to watch. Although I was the rare Knicks fan who loved H20 more than Spree.
That’s interesting, Mike. I actually had to google famous knicks named Kurt to see if there was someone other than Crazy Eyes who you had ranked in Tier 3a.
(I’m assuming you’re not referring to Kurt Rambis’ coaching stint.)
Houston’s playoff BPM was 0.8. He scored 17 points per 36 and did little else. Even as a scorer, he was mediocre inside the arc. He was a very good Knick but mostly one-dimensional.
I would add Sprewell to Tier 6.
“That’s interesting, Mike. I actually had to google famous knicks named Kurt to see if there was someone other than Crazy Eyes who you had ranked in Tier 3a. (I’m assuming you’re not referring to Kurt Rambis’ coaching stint.)”
Fantastic question, Hubert. I’ve been racking my brain trying to figure out who that is, too. No way Kurt Thomas belongs with DeBusschere, et al. in that tier.
I just can’t bring myself to put Melo in our top 10.
The first four seasons he was really good. But that first season was really half a season. Half of the season was built off the backs of Amare and the young guys we shipped out for Melo. So we probably would have made the playoffs anyways.
The second season we got pummeled by Miami in the first round.
Third season was the 54 win season. That was the best season with Melo and for awhile we looked pretty damn good. but disappointing playoffs.
His last good season we didn’t even make the playoffs. And that was when he got the single game scoring record too.
After that, it was all bad.
Should Randle get any top 10 consideration?
KAT’s block of the inbound pass at the end of game 4 was just as important as OG’s tip in.
If he doesn’t get a piece of that pass, Castle dunks the ball and the greatest win in Knick history goes up in smoke.
That play isn’t as iconic as the tip in because it’s not aesthetically pleasing— you can barely see him tip the ball. But it was just as important.
I was referring to the “from the neck up” ability. Nothing to do with athletic ability or unguardable skill. It’s not just him figuring out how to score better in a series, it him figuring out how to win the series. (ATL)
JB says this all the time using the phrase “find a way; no matter what we believe that will always find a way”.
This team belief and trust in him is the root of all comebacks and why his teams defined analytics. Rockets had it last with Hakeem Olajuwon.
I’m pretty much with Z-Man on his list. And sorry about the gout, I used to get that in my 20s due to reprobate behavior, actually had a case this year despite living more or less super-healthy. Go figure. That is, if pizza and donuts qualify as super-healthy.
Regarding Knickerblogger’s list, I have a few qualms mostly related to love overshadowing skill. I wouldn’t have Oak on his own tier, I don’t mind him being in Tier 2 with a bunch of other, though. If you look at 3a as 2, I’d not have Mason or Kurt in there, and I wouldn’t even have Starks. I love all three, especially John, but he’s by far the lesser player to Sprewell head-to-head, and I wouldn’t put Spree in there either. I would put King in there instead.
Spree, Mason, Houston, maybe Bradley would be my Tier 3s. Outside of Jalen I’m loath to include our other starters from last year since the book has yet to be written, but all of them could end up on the list, with KAT and maybe OG being Tier 2 and Hart and possibly Mikal being Tier 3.
As for Melo… he’s honestly probably Tier 2, but I’m happy to leave him off entirely as I so hated his game.
just when it looked like there was zero reason to tune in to sports at the moment – along comes the robot olympics…
sadly, believe most of the bots are remote controlled, but it’s a start…
400 meters in under 40 seconds ain’t too shabby…
And yeah, I’d put Randle into my big-bucket Tier 3 (Really Good Knicks).
“just when it looked like there was zero reason to tune in to sports at the moment – along comes the robot olympics…”
That seems like a reason *not* to watch.
And where is Mr. Bill? And The Human Eraser? (OK, the latter I just mentioned for the few who will know who he is without looking him up. But Mr. Bill ahead of some of those guys? Hell, yeah.)
What makes this a difficult exercise is that we all weigh things like longevity, scoring vs. role-playing, all-star/all-NBA seasons, peak, contributions to championships, etc. differently.
Bill Bradley and Dick Barnett were so-so statistically and should be nowhere near the top 10 in a vacuum. But they were starters and played 30+ mpg on the most decorated team in Knicks history. And it wasn’t just the two championship years. They went to the finals 3 of 4 years and missed the finals in the fourth year because of a 2-pt loss in game 7 vs. the Bullets. So most of their “greatness” is due to the greatness of their team, in the same way that Josh and Mikal are vaulted up the list by this championship on the heels of a conference finals appearance.
A list of the 10 BEST Knicks ever, based on peak seasons and discounting playoff success, might look quite different. I would probably keep the Mt. Rushmore intact, but Bernard King would be a firm #5, and Melo surely would be in the top 10. I don’t think any 2025-26 Knick other than Brunson would be anywhere near the top-10. Even Julius Randle would be higher than anyone else on this team.
“And sorry about the gout, I used to get that in my 20s due to reprobate behavior, actually had a case this year despite living more or less super-healthy. Go figure. That is, if pizza and donuts qualify as super-healthy.”
If I were to make a list of the top-10 most physically painful thing I have experienced, this would merit serious consideration. I feel like someone shattered my big toe joint with a ball peen hammer.
KAT in 2 seasons has been an All-Star twice while averaging 22 ppg and 12reb with a TS% close to 63%. His regular season stats will definitely warrant his place in the Top 10.
Hear you Zman. They were both all stars who made sacrifices to win.
Add Dave DeBusschere who was an 8x All Star. Earl Monroe 4x. Jerry Lucas 7X. Those 70s teams were super stacked with talent.
That’s why I can’t put neither Willis nor Clyde above JB. They not only had each other but their peripheral talent was way better than what Brunson had to work with + lets be honest, KAT is no Reed.
Yet Brunson still found a way to climb the same mountain top.
Brunson is the GOAT Knick.
There is still way too much KAT slander going on…
It’s actually kind of a tough call between Randle and Melo. Melo played longer and had the better single season, but Randle kinda had better numbers during his Knicks tenure:
Melo in 6+ seasons: 25 points, 7 rebounds, 3.5 assists
Randle in 5 seasons: 23 points, 10 rebounds, 5 assists
The defense is probably a wash. Maybe Melo wins for having a better season personally and team-wise, but Randle is no slouch.
To Z-Man’s point being a complementary piece on a team as good as the early 1970’s Knicks is worthy of esteem. ( cf Melo refusing to alter his game for the betterment of his teams). I always thought Barnett’s was one of the more underated Knicks of that era. Clyde always credited him with guarding the number 1 guard so he could play the passing lanes and make steals. The willingness to sublimate your ego and game is a big deal. I give KAT credit for doing this during the playoffs.
Be interesting to see how Jalen Brown does with this aspect.
I find it hard to criticize KAT for the three last finals games when there seemed to be a referee conspiracy against him.
He was also excellent the first two games of the finals.
“I find it hard to criticize KAT for the three last finals games when there seemed to be a referee conspiracy against him.”
This. So much this. And in combination with Wemby having the exact opposite going on for him the fact that we won this in five games is even more extraordinary.
My point was that he’s no Willis Reed and that’s why Brunson is GOAT. Didnt mean to specifically criticize KAT but now I will…
Can you name one game in the last three series that he absolutely dominated and won it for us? – That’s what’s expected from the highest paid player on the court (both teams) and 2nd best player on a championship team.
From recent years only, Middleton, Murray, Brown, JDub, Wiggins all dominated and helped their 1A win a finals game. KAT played OK in two and sucked in three of them, – culminating with a 1 for 7, 2 point, 5 TO close out game five. This is why everyone on this board is against paying him anywhere near the max.
I think in general we’re not giving enough credit to the non-Jalen starters (and others) on this current team. The book’s not written, and a career with the Knicks is different than a two-year stint. But even our fifth starter, Josh Hart, is a demonic defender and finisher who has become a 41% three point shooter and is the best rebounder for his size in the entire league. Sure he’s down for two-three brain farts per game, but he’s comparable or better than John Starks in most stats. So where should he rank?
Again, I’m hesitant to put any of them in there until the book’s been written, but all four of our other starters are bucking for a tier in there somewhere. At least for me.
And I’ll just add in this, from today’s Macri, regarding another current player:
Advanced stats, counting stats and everything in between all tell the same story. Year after year, Deuce McBride keeps getting better. He’s become one of the league’s elite marksmen, hitting 3.7 threes per 36 minutes at a 41.3 percent clip last season. Among rotation players, only Kon Knueppel, Sam Merrill and Isaiah Joe can claim to have done the same. Then in the playoffs, he overcame a lingering injury to be a co-sixth man (along with Landry Shamet) for the championship run. Even with a quiet end to the finals, McBride produced plenty along the way, adding to a postseason legacy that now includes an astounding 58 games, just two back of Allan Houston for 15th most in franchise history.
You have to use resources on defense to account for KAT even if he’s not putting up numbers. He is a spacing machine just because of the threat of his shooting.
Raw +/- is noisy, but the Knicks were +44 in the Finals with KAT on the floor and -32 with him off.
KAT on Wemby on: Knicks +30
KAT off Wemby on: Spurs +41
We SUCKED when KAT didn’t play. Our spacing crawled into a hole and died.
And sure, the foul trouble was his fault, but also some of those calls were really fucking dubious.
This is also why I wouldn’t mind having a stretch 5 as the primary backup C rather than a rim-running defense-first guy like Mitch. Let the league figure out how to defend 48 minutes of us playing five out.
I will again point out that in 1970, Willis Reed was not just a guy who braved injury to play in a dramatic game seven. He was the league MVP that year (only MVP in Knicks history despite being an original franchise). He had to go through Wes Unseld and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar before going up against Wilt. In the first 4 games he put up 37 and 16, 29 and 15, 38 and 17, and 23 and 12. Then after he completely ruptured his hip flexor muscle in game 5 and sat game 6, he won game 7 just by stepping on the court and hitting 2 jumpers. Every Knick who talks about that game said that the moment Willis walked on to the court, they knew they were going to win.
No one will ever convince me that he isn’t the greatest Knick of all time, because I can’t think of a single player in Knicks history, and maybe only one other player in the history of the NBA (His initials are BR) who could have inspired his team to win a game largely without him, simply by stepping on to the court when he had one working leg, and drag a dead leg around for 20 minutes in front of a GOAT candidate who destroyed them in Game 6. Can you imagine if he did that today, instead of in a time when the game wasn’t even shown live in New York, with no internet and no social media?
I also give Willis the nod in part because of the fact that he grew up in heavily segregated rural Lousiana in the 1950’s rather than with the advantages that Brunson had. Among the teammates who absolutely revered The Captain were a Rhodes scholar who went on to be a US Senator and presidential candidate, arguably the GOAT of NBA coaches, a guy respected enough to be a player-coach in the NBA at age 24, and a guy with a Ph.D. in education.
Eventually, my generation will disappear and no one will care much about researching the grainy videos and newspaper accounts enough to appreciate Willis Reed’s greatness and put him ahead of Brunson on the all-time list. That’s fine with me, though. It it had to be someone, Jalen is as worthy as anyone.
I hear you JK on the spacing and you’re 100% right but on/off stats from 2nd best player on the team are a terrible baseline to measure performance.
The fact that KAT was more valuable as a spacing threat than with the ball in his hands doing damage in the last three playoff series says it all. Means that JB + all other role players put in all the work.
Clyde is #1
It’s interesting to hear you say that about KAT’s tip. I have watched the replay a lot. I still don’t know if Castle waltzes in for a layup. But it was a big play. Not putting it on the same level as OG
Gee, it’s almost as if the space created by KAT made it easier for players like Brunson to do their work. By, you know, creating space for them to operate in.
That spacing has immense value.
It wouldn’t have been a layup. It would have been the most demoralizing dunk in Knicks history.
KAT prevented it.
Zman, I can give you one of the two…Willis Reed or Clyde Frazier to go ahead of Brunson. But not both. They had each other. Brunson has KAT.
As far as leader of men, JB is doing it in an era where no one is willing to be led because they’ re all taught to be leaders themselves and build their own personal brands. In my opinion, Brunson is the best leader in the league right now.
Agreed, 100%. But a lot more is required from a #2 than spacing.
When you watch the clip it seems like Hart was there though?
Whatever, I don’t care. It was an amazing tip
I didn’t think Director was being harsh on KAT when he said “Brunson carried a mentally flawed all star” in the finals, and I’m not blaming the refs for the foul trouble KAT was in the rest of the series. First play of game 4 he hip checked Fox in plain sight. Fourth play he did his stupid hook thing with Wemby’s arm. And Game 5 was even worse.
That’s not slander that’s what happened.
KAT is a Knicks legend forever. And Joel Embiid might score 50 pts on Andre Drummond opening night because KAT can’t stay on the court.
Duality.
BR?
Yeah it’s a bummer we only won 13 straight playoff games and won the NBA Finals in five games. Maybe someday we’ll get a “real” #2.
Regarding that pass that KAT tipped, I’m not sure that the tip itself was necessary, as he clearly forced Harper to throw a lob pass that imho allowed Josh Hart to get back into the play enough to have prevented a dunk. I wonder if there are ways to measure the initial speed and trajectory of the pass before KAT tipped it. Those kinds of plays have to be perfectly timed, and lobbing a pass makes it harder.
If you freeze this video at the 54 second mark just as the ball leaves Harper’s hands, you can see that he takes a slow, predictable windup and sort of shoots the ball like a jump shot with an upward trajectory rather than throw it like a hard soccer throw-in. Look at the way his left hand follows through to the side. It was the kind of slow lob you see in dunk contests. Then at the 56 second mark, Josh appears in the lower left-hand corner of the screen while the ball is still very far from the play. Josh slipped a bit but still seemed to recover enough balance to have impacted that lob had KAT not tipped it.
And while I give KAT tons of extra credit for tipping the ball, his primary job was to make any kind of direct pass with mustard on it difficult, i.e. to make Harper throw a weak lob rather than a bullet pass. KAT’s hands were right where they were supposed to be, tip or no tip. That’s why you put a 7-footer out there in the first place!
There’s an analogous situation in golf that any who play a lot has encountered many times. When you are in a fairway bunker, you have to choose a club with enough loft to clear the lip, but in doing so, you lose speed and distance and might not get it over the next hazard and to the green. Harper took one club too much and and caught the lip.
“This is also why I wouldn’t mind having a stretch 5 as the primary backup C rather than a rim-running defense-first guy like Mitch. Let the league figure out how to defend 48 minutes of us playing five out.”
I’ve been in agreement with a lot of what you’ve been saying lately, JK. However, I cannot agree with this (although you do bring up an interesting point). We need a “defense-first” guy in that third center spot not only for the obvious reason that it is the type of guy we are replacing in Mitch, but just because we need more defense than true standouts OG, Deuce, and Alvie at this particular point in time, and it would be great to have a 7-foot one of those.
FWIW I’m reading Director’s comments as pretty benign and am surprised they’re generating this much heat.
The question he’s indirectly posing is how much is KAT worth? He’s been getting paid at 35% but that’s Jokic/Giannis/SGA territory.
JK makes great points about KAT’s spacing, but Chet Holmgren does that too and finished 2nd in DPOY. He makes 25% of the cap.
When SGA’s extension kicks in, the Thunder will be at:
SGA – 35%
Chet – 25%
Williams – 25%
That’s what you want, and IMO the Knicks should look just like that when Brunson’s extension comes, with KAT & OG next to each other at 25%.
That’s not slander and it’s not discounting the value of KAT’s spacing. It’s just recognizing the plain fact that he’s not really a second star he’s just a great player like OG (and Chet, and Williams).
I wouldn’t care if we were a large market team with deep pockets willing to spend whatever it takes, but alas we are the small market Knicks and we have to be fiscally prudent.
I would still have Clyde ahead of Brunson but that is a more compelling argument to me than putting him above Reed. But even there, Clyde not only had his own legendary close-out game, he was extremely highly decorated that year. All-star, 4th in MVP voting, First team all-NBA, first team all-defense. Overall, Clyde was 6X all-NBA (4X first team), and 7X all-defense first team. He came in 4th, 7th, and 6th in MVP voting. And he definitely should have been MVP of the 1973 finals (some say the 1970 finals as well although I think Willis deserved it.)
I don’t think Brunson is there yet, but others may disagree. The defense alone is incredibly lopsided, and Frazier was a great offensive player as well.
Chet was so fucking bad in the conference Finals, disappearing in Ben Simmons-style fashion in such a punk ass manner that I question whether he’ll ever be the same again. I don’t think he’s very germane to the conversation. He played like a complete bum in the Conference Finals. Wemby swatted him like a bug.
Thank God we had KAT instead of that dude.
Still don’t know who “Kurt” and “BR” are. I’d be happy to look them up to find out, but not enough to go on. Maybe it *is* Kurt Thomas (but shouldn’t be)? BR I just have no clue, although I feel like I’m supposed to. Doubt it’s Barney Rubble or Baskin-Robbins.
I don’t think anyone benefitted as much from the immaturity of the Spurs as KAT. Against a more mature opponent, his unforced errors an disappearing acts might have been much more costly. But he is still a massive plus out there, and he largely did enough great “KAT” things to turn the series.
He was the third best Knicks player out there. But for a first time, I saw a path to him dominating a series whether he scores a lot or not. His gravity is a huge plus, and his defense is much improved. Did he give us a max salary’s worth of production and impact? Probably not. It would definitely feel a lot better if his salary and Brunson’s were switched.
Because of the draconian salary cap and apron, sure, you don’t want KAT to be your highest paid player, but he’s getting underrated here by some. We are simply just not all that good without the otherworldly spacing. I take issue with this comment:
KAT only gives you spacing? What about the fact that he was #2 in the NBA in total rebounding percentage, and was the starting center on the #1 defensive team in the playoffs? What about the passing?
The guy played his ass off, foul trouble or no foul trouble. Without him we would have been well and truly screwed, as evidenced by how the team played when he wasn’t on the floor.
KAT in the finals was only slightly better than Chet in the WCF:
KAT: 13.0 pts on 59% TS, 10.6 reb, 2.4 ast, 1.4 stl, 1.0 blk
Chet: 10.7 pts on 60% TS, 7.1 reb, 1.0 ast, 0.7 stl, 1.0 blk
Okay what about the defensive end? Close there?
Nope. Wemby had a 63 TS% against the Thunder, 53 against the Knicks. KAT held Wemby to a 40 eFG% as the primary defender.
Somebody now post Mitch’s stats from the Finals!
I concur that KAT gives a lot more than just spacing. He is an elite offensive player, period. He is among the best defensive rebounders in the NBA and a very good offensive rebounder for a guy who also shoots a few 3’s and is therefore out at the line rather than in the dunker’s spot. He also got better at protecting the paint, thanks in part to Brown’s schemes. The brainfarts hurt, but he’s an awesome player, if somewhat overpaid.
I was a chronic detractor, even when he was putting up bigger scoring numbers. But these playoffs, he had a very grounded look about him, as if the moment was not too big for him. Wemby is gonna make a lot of players look human at times, but KAT destroyed him at times as well, particulary in pivotal games 1 and 2.
Director did not say KAT only gives us spacing.
I feel like we’re having different conversations here.
The point he seemed to be making was that Brunson & KAT are not Jordan & Pippen, Shaq & Kobe, or LeBron & Wade. Heck they’re not even Tatum & Brown.
This is a Brunson & the gang situation, like Dirk’s Mavs & Steph’s Warriors when he didn’t have Durant.
KAT is excellent but if he’s your #2 you’re gonna need a great #3, as well, and a really strong #4.
We’re fortunate to have that. If KAT gets paid, we won’t. And KAT’s not going to give us enough as a #2 to make up for not having someone like OG or even Mikal.
no doubt about KAT’s skill, just his commitment to defense and moving the ball to set up his teammates…
KAT’s made the conference finals 3 years running…2026 playoffs’ KAT is a easy top 20 player…
all for one, one for all KAT is spectacular…got to beat 4 different teams in the playoffs to win it all, he can easy be the difference in at least 2 of those series…
don’t think we get him for 25%, would be nice, but, no…could see him though coming in around 30%…and, that would be pretty great…
hopefully captain clutch follows suit, if he wants to keep his stay clutch crew together…
while we are dreaming, josh re-ups at around 10%…oh yeah baby, keep these starters together for another 3 or 4 years would be wild…beyond expectations…
at some point, would be nice to add some young (less costly) talent…go mo go…and tyler too…we really need to hit on a good young backup big this season…
other than staying healthy, peaking for the playoffs, finding a young/less costly big that can help is key…
no way to even dream of replacing mitch’s statistical impact…not happening…
not sure why we let go of huk, liked his motor a lot, moved off his screens too quick, but a lot to like (blocks, speed), hopefully some way, some how we wind up in a better situation at some point…
Brunson and KAT > Tatum and Brown
Anyone who watched those teams knows Willis was the best player. Ask Clyde and he’ll trell you that to this day.
His ass whipping of the entire Laker’s team breaking Rudy La Russo and Henry Finkel’s jaw in the same fight is the most alpha dog action in the history of professional sports.
wow, almost 2 years of seriously doubting the ability of those 2 offensive engines playing enough defense to win 16 games in a single post season…
glad to be wrong on that one…
honestly, because of the drawn charges and his physicality, never really saw jalen as the issue…
for me it was all about KAT not wanting to play as a defensive center…because it’s exhausting work to do that, rebound – and run around to score…easier though if after defending you have to only run back to the arc, instead of the post or under the rim, to get the ball to pass/shoot/drive…
think I saw something, some where rating KAT as like the 4th best center – not sure if it was just in the east, or the entire nba…
Perhaps but Tatum and Brown are close to each other in quality, like all the other duos I mentioned. That was the point.
KAT is closer in quality to OG than Brunson. In fact many folks have reasonably wondered if OG isn’t really our 2nd best player.
No one has ever wondered if KAT is better than Brunson.
Maybe if we used “1A” instead of “#2” this misunderstanding would clear up.
Shaq & Kobe, LeBron & Wade, Tatum & Brown… those are more like 1 & 1A combinations than a #1 and a #2.
What makes our team special is that Brunson’s a great #1 while KAT and OG are a great 2 & 2A combo. Not that Brunson & KAT are a great 1 & 1A combo.
thanks Bob, just watched it…wow, mister reed there really got on a roll, didn’t he though…
My favorite thing about that final play with KAT guarding the inbound pass was right before it when he got the fans to crowd up on The Spurs player inbounding the ball so they had very little room to maneuver when making the pass.
that’s some next level using homecourt advantage shit right there and a pretty smart play by KAT.
jalen had a tough time against those hawk defenders…needed a dominant big to get by them…
there are a few teams in the east that can make it tough on jalen to dominate…
we have a big whom can dominate offensively, and play some decent defense too…
Shams:
Just want to say I smiled at the KAT/Chet comparison. KAT with lots more ppg, a ton more rebounding, more than double the assists, exactly double the steals. But they did have the same blocks per game!
Pretty generous uses of “lots” and “a ton”, Raven.
I am also glad we had KAT instead of Chet but I think folks might have been underestimating how much KAT struggled in the finals.
Chet was done in by Wemby, whereas KAT was done in by his own tendency to foul like an idiot.
Thanks, Hubert.
I only intended to speficy how weak of a #2 KAT really is thinking that we would all agree and this will strengthen my argument that Brunson is the all time great Knick because he literally won with less talent than the 70s teams.
Never intended this conversation to be about KAT.
Instead you ended up turning the doggiest day of summer into a rollicking good time. Nice work!
Somehow all of this overshadowed Mike K ranking Kurt Thomas as a top 10 Knick of all time. I think we need to get back to that.
I love Brunson and think he will go down as the greatest Knick ever but putting down his teammates is not necessary and in fact is bullshit.
I don’t want to start a generational war here but don’t get me started on actually believing that KAT, OG, Bridges and Hart are less talented than the supporting cast of the 70s Knicks…
Here’s my question for Z-man and any other old heads around: if Dollar Bill, to use one example, had the same career numbers and played on teams that were mostly good, but never won a title, much less two, would he be in the Hall of Fame? With some of the guys on the 70s Knicks, I genuinely don’t know enough to know. Earl and Jerry Lucas would be, given what we saw of their play on other teams, in addition to contributing to the 73 title. But would Bradley? Would Barnett?
Asking both because I’ve always wondered and because it helps sort through the whole question of who has the deeper team between Jalen and Clyde.
Unless you’re doing it in a game thread?
Game threads are funner during Lent.
On Clyde vs Brunson argument,
Big Al, are you saying that KAT, OG, Bridges and Hart are better than Willis Reed, Bill Bradley, Dave DeBusschere and Earl the Pearl Monroe?
If yes, please educate me and show me what I’m missing.
Scoring-wise, KAT was definitely not a 1A overall in these playoffs. But he was an extremely effective player overall. His BPM of 9.4 over 19 playoff games can’t be dismissed. He and Brown finally got on the same page in the playoffs, and now they have an entire season to build off of that. I’m expecting a huge year from KAT.
It’s funner when we know who “BR” is, especially since he is likely only one of two players “in the history of the NBA who could have inspired his team to win a game largely without him,” other than Willis Reed.
“Here’s my question for Z-man and any other old heads around: if Dollar Bill, to use one example, had the same career numbers and played on teams that were mostly good, but never won a title, much less two, would he be in the Hall of Fame?”
It’s hard to say, Alan. All of the players subjugated parts of their respective games on that team. Dollar Bill was obviously a high-IQ player, and an extremely good mid-range shooter in his time. He was also a fantastic college player who was very hyped in the media. And it definitely helped that his name was Bill Bradley. But assuming the same numbers he put up, and without being sort of a famous guy from Princeton, definitely not.
The thing is, Bradley was the kind of intelligent, selfless role player that championship-level teams likely valued. So I think there’s a strong possibility that if not on the Knicks, he would have wound up doing the same stuff for a contender like the Celts or Sixers or Lakers or Bullets or Bucks.
Dick Barnett was a bit closer to putting up HOF stats than Bradley, but not really there. He was a pretty legit scorer, tough defender, and a smart, slick, flamboyant presence on the court. But without the championships, probably not.
The fact that he didn’t get inducted as a player until 2024 kinda speaks for itself. But he was every bit as deserving as Bradley, so maybe there is some elitism/racial bias involved.
Listen I respect the 1970s Knicks and all great athletes from the past so I don’t want to start a holy generational war especially since I’m 46 so I’m not exactly a spring chicken myself.
But the NBA in 1970 had only 17 teams and didn’t even have all of the best basketball players in the world since the ABA was around and there were no foreign players. I’ve watched highlights and actual game footage from back then and sorry but its hard to watch and can’t be compared to the modern game.
I guess I’m sounding like the current younger fans who say that Jordan played against plumbers but I’m instead disparaging the players from the 60s and 70s which I know is unfair to do.
They were funnest that one week you stuck to your New Year’s resolution.
Looked up “Knicks with the initials B.R.” again, and all it (stupidly) came up with was Mitchell Robinson. 🙂
Z-man, who were you referencing there, pretty please?
Shit Hubert I don’t even think it lasted that long cause that was exactly the time the Knicks went on their 2-9 stretch!
It’s Bill Russell, Doogie
Yeah, respectfully, I think Director’s case for Clyde having better players surrounding him is overstated. In 1973, Willis, Lucas, and Barnett were nothing close to their prime selves. It was really Clyde, DeBusscherre, Earl, and Bradley (probably his best year) and then aging vets and scrubs.
But Lucas, DeBusschere and Bradley combined to provide great spacing in that time, giving Clyde and Earl room to operate, while Willis mostly just anchored the paint. Dean Meminger was very good off the bench, especially in the playoffs vs. Boston.
I think both Clyde and Brunson had excellent teams around them, and comparing across eras is really hard to do. I put Clyde ahead of Brunson on the Knicks list because he is way more accomplished and is a 2-way player. But before all is said and done, Brunson might surpass him, especially if he wins another chip with this group.
Game one on the road, KAT goes 18-12-4 and was the primary defender on Wemby, who shot 6-21. He bested Wemby pretty easily. 1-0 Knicks.
Game two, KAT goes 21-13-4, shoots 8-12 for an .815 TS%, leads the team in plus/minus at +11. Better game for Wemby but KAT still outplayed him. 2-0 Knicks.
Game three is his worst game, and the Knicks lose.
Game four, he’s in foul trouble throughout but plays really well when he’s on the floor. Goes for 13-10-2 for a .962 TS% in 25 minutes, is +17 in those minutes, makes a killer clutch defensive play to save the greatest win in Knicks history.
Game five he wasn’t very good.
He played a huge role in three of the Knicks’ four wins, even with the foul trouble.
What are we even doing here?
Al you were hysterical that week. You were so serene for like 3 days, saying things like “I’ve come to realize there’s nothing worth getting worked up about, it’s just a game”. It was like watching someone go all out in the gym on Jan 4th.
Thanks, Hubert. “his initials are BR” is only five characters (seven if you count the spaces) more than “Bill Russell,” so especially in such a long post not sure why we went with the more secretive method. LOL I don’t understand, but I guess I don’t need to. 🙂
You tell me, man.
We’re just saying Brunson doesn’t have a teammate who is a superstar like him.
Do KAT’s numbers look like Kobe’s in 2000 or Wade’s in 2011? Did he win MVP like Brown did in ’24?
Also, most people didn’t see KAT’s tip because there were few replays. You had to really watch for it. And all of the cameras immediately went to filming Jerry Seinfeld and Taylor Swift and the on court celebration.
But if the Spurs had gotten a shot off, there would have likely been LOTS of replays, at which point the refs would have HAD to reverse the shot, because the clock didn’t start counting from 1.2 when KAT tipped it.
Or they might have let a shot attempt count, which would have caused the greatest riot in the history of MSG.
Nah Hubert the one time I genuinely went off which included non game threads was the final week of the 2025 regular season when we blew the 3 games in a row to Boston, Detroit and Cleveland.
My game thread bullshit most of the time is for fun and some people actually get a kick out of it but the only time I brought real negativity to non game threads was the aforementioned final week of the 2025 regular season.
this team’s story – may – just be beginning…
hard to compare players just entering their peak to other folks whom played a whole career…unbalanced…
Sorry to hear that, Z-man. I’ve had gout since my 30s and it stinks. Rather then take medication I basically gave up drinking, meat, high fructose corn syrup (which used to be in everything), and lately, seed oils (which really are in everything and are a trigger). One of those things once per week is the max. It’s boring AF, but I take solace in that it makes me eat pretty healthfully. That said, I’ve been debating going on allopurinol… It’d be nice to be able to drink and eat meat at the same meal and not freak out.
As for Willis, it wasn’t as dramatic as him limping out of the tunnel, but Brunson was playing with a damaged tendon the whole series. That’s kind of a big deal, no? Especially since the locker room probably knew about it, and it had to steel their resolve.
Well, I suppose we did also say Brunson “carried a mentally weak all star.”
Fair enough.
Thanks, rama, it’s weird but I guess more typical for gout to hit seniors, but my wife had a single attack back in her 30’s so there’s that. I went to a podiatrist who prescribed heavy duty Naproxyn for a few days, already took the edge off. I’ve had a run of craft beer drinking lately and alas, that might be something that has to change immediately.
Point taken on Brunson, but I would offer as a counterpoint that most players played through lots of pain back then, and the quality of medical care was pretty primitive. They still do today, even with advances. Brunson’s injury clearly didn’t seem to affect him all that much, other than maybe pain and soreness. I’m guessing that his ankles were barking at him after games. As to whether it inspired the locker room, I dunno, did you ever take a good look at Josh’s finger?
Willis was literally crippled. So for me, it’s not quite the same.
One guy who never gets enough credit for playing through pain is Patrick Ewing. That guy was a warrior. But I was always a bit disappointed that he didn’t try to play through his partially torn achilles. It never required surgery, but it didn’t matter because he was pretty much washed up anyway. That was clearly his last hurrah.
I have no doubt that Willis would have played until it snapped.
At some point this summer I learned this is the play the Spurs were running with 1.2 seconds left btw:
https://youtu.be/RDpOLRCyrMw?si=UQwRthjr-6l3Bgpl&t=22
David Wells had to leave Game 5 of the 2003 World Series after 1 inning because of gout. It was an unfortunate ending to his Yankees career.
So just for giggles I compared both Barnett and Bradley to the current Knicks starter that gets the least respect from most folks here, Mikal Bridges, and Bridges is, to put it in language Hubert can understand, TONS better at virtually everything than either of those two, except Barnett has a slight lead on ppg (less than KAT had on Chet) and Bradley had another slight lead in assists (also less than KAT’s lead over Chet in assists).
I presume this is an artifact from the fact that the game has morphed so much since the early 70s that such comparisons are essentially pointless, but I was still a bit surprised. Also, Bill Bradley was only 6’5″.
thing that sticks out the most about that: was at work, walking around inside a warehouse, my toe “snapped” or some shit, and it sounded like a tree branch breaking…
it was a bit frightening in the moment…lots and lots of beer and beef on the menu during that time…
feels like beef takes years to process thru these days, so, less of that thank you…
given up most alcohol cuz I feel constantly thirsty, thought/knew drinking would dehydrate me even more…
thought it was from all the weed intake…turns out just a little side treat of diabetes…
so, now gotta really regulate alcohol AND energy/caffeine drink use…man, 2 prior faves, even better as a combo…feels like red bull and tequila were made for one another…
did do my fave pizza combo (green peppers and meatballs) the other day…just anti-acided up – and went for it…yum…
now i’m curious, cuz it does happen, if there are any over the counter short term relief things…
Another kinda glaring stat from those 70s Knicks Raven are the mostly pedestrian FG and FT%’s. Now its not fair to compare efficiency stats to the current players because of the lack of a 3pt line obviously but DeBusschere for instance for his career shot 43% from FG and 70% from the FT line.
I think Brunson is third after Walt and Willis mainly because he hasn’t been a Knick as long. Give him 3-4 more years as a Knick and I’m pretty sure he’ll be at #1.
I think KAT and possibly OG will be top 10 Knicks if they stay and play at least 3-4 more years for the Knicks. Right now they are at best top 20.
Top 10
Tier 1
Walt
Reed
Brunson
Ewing
Tier 2
DeBusschere
King
Monroe
Guerin
Tier 3 (pick 2 to round out top 10 – my choice is Starks and Gallatin)
Starks
Gallatin
Oakley
Braun
Carmelo
Tier 4 (is huge and this is probably not everyone)
Randle
Barnett
Bradley
OG
KAT
Mitch
Lee
Houston
Spree
Hart
Jackson
Ben , come on my man. That list is a joke right. OG in same tier as Randel and RJ Barrett? That’s insulting
I think the #1/#2 thing is a bit overblown at this point.
KAT was clearly the last piece of our puzzle, and when that comes available, you don’t worry about the price some previous team allotted that player.
And even though I think Wemby was a bit overrated offensively, KAT had some truly amazing defensive stands against the guy, especially in game 1. It was truly shocking, and I think KAT deserved forever flowers for the grit he showed over the course of that playoff run.
The fact that he’s not a “walking bucket” like some players doesn’t really matter. You fill in what you need where you need it.
And of course that doesn’t mean his contract isn’t a big problem moving forward.
It will be fascinating to see how the KAT and Hart contract negotiations go. The Mitch scenario was almost understandable, but will Dolan break up his perfect starting five over tax money? If he does, that will be a much bigger deal that letting Mitch go.
“Ben , come on my man. That list is a joke right. OG in same tier as Randel and RJ Barrett? That’s insulting”
RJ Barrett isn’t listed anywhere. What are you talking about? If you read closer, it’s Dick *Barnett*.
At least “Kurt” is gone. 🙂
Apologies in advance for the name drop (even if I think I’ve done it before). Ben Stiller and I have become slightly friendly since we spoke for the Serling book (he’s a huge Twilight Zone fan). I asked him either the next day or the day after if he thought KAT tipped it. And Stiller, who was standing right there — and filming stuff with his phone for the documentary he was making — replied, “I think so.”
Even when you watch it on replay, it’s very hard to make out.
Although I don’t think it would have been a dunk even if KAT missed it for reasons already stated, the tip not only slowed the ball down, it deflected it away from the basket up the lane a bit, so Castle had to go back and get it.
Between Kurt Thomas and RJ Barrett, who belongs more on a list of greatest Knicks? (Probably neither one of them belongs—I understand that—but which one belongs *more than the other one?) Yes, that is a serious question.
Kurt Thomas was a likeable journeyman big. RJ Barrett was the Prince who just couldn’t deliver (at least while here). So kind of depends.
Just for fun I did Dave DeBusschere vs. OG. DD was way better in counting stats (except steals and blocks), OG killed with things that ended in %.
And Dave was just 6’6″. Next they’ll be telling me Willis was only 6’10″…
“Kurt Thomas was a likeable journeyman big. RJ Barrett was the Prince who just couldn’t deliver (at least while here). So kind of depends.”
That sounds pretty damn near perfect. Thanks, Raven.
Okay, last one, we all hope. Blasphemously, I did Willis vs. KAT. KAT KILLED Reed in everything but rebounds (12.9 to a not-so-bad 11.1). Crushed.
Too bad KAT’s such a lousy #2.
For sure, ess-dog. But we were talking about KAT’s next contract, which he wants indexed to that previous team’s valuation.
This team can only afford to have KAT at 35% and OG at 25% bc Brunson is at 22.5%.
When Brunson goes up to 35%, we kinda need them to flip places.
That’s where the 1 & 1A thing comes into play, and why I’m (perhaps harshly) pointing out how KAT was a lot closer to Chet in the finals than Brunson. We are not a team of two stars.
The only way you can pay all of these guys is if you’re in a really large market and make lots of revenue. Alas, we’re not like those rich teams in Cleveland and Phoenix and Boston that paid huge tax bills. We’re just trying to get by here in small town New York City.
At least we can all afford to go to games.
“And Dave was just 6’6″”
So is Draymond Green.
Willis Reed was 6’9″ So is Bam Adebayo.
The funny thing is that everyone makes it seem like Jalen Brunson is the only guy who dominated his position while being undersized. Willis and Dave were extremely intelligent, super-athletic, tough as nails, and very polished for their time. They were plenty big enough and would have been just fine in today’s game, assuming that they could benefit from all the advantages that today’s players have access to.
Hey Alan, just coming on to complain bitterly about this season’s Reacher. Endless bad expository dialog, still waiting for a quip or even the scent of a humorous aside, and Ritchson is even more wooden than usual. It’s like the whole screenplay was written by Andrew Child.
Patiently waiting for Alan & Kathryn to drop a Furious episode (while inpatiently waiting for the finale after that excellent cliffhanger)
think i’m in episode 2, maybe 3…it’s the pulpiest of pulp media…
ever heard of Seedance 2.5?
that, plus Higgsfield AI, run by Claude…seems you can make about anything now…better yet, useful prompts and the thing does the thing…crazy…
HAL makes YouTube sitcoms now…and, they have an audience…
best AI creation I’ve seen yet: the entire story of Robert’s Rebellion, an animated story
mentioned it a while back, not only will we get Winds of Winter and a Dream of Spring – it’ll appear as live action media…yep…
Hubert, we did a Furious episode a few weeks ago!
And Raven, I think this Reacher season is better than the last couple. I generally don’t find the show’s sense of humor funny, and come for the creative violence. And I think the fight scenes this year are a level above anything they’ve done previously — certainly on this consistent a basis.
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