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Knicks Morning News (2025.06.20)
06/20/2025 11:00:03
06/20/2025 11:00:03
06/20/2025 10:48:26
06/20/2025 09:02:08
06/20/2025 07:44:05
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117 replies on “Knicks Morning News (2025.06.20)”
To echo the thread last night, it really has been a weird ass Finals.
And the fact Obi was out there absolutely stroking above the break 3s is very strange.
Can’t believe Jalen was negative 40
Born in Nigeria, Nnaji was selected in the 2023 NBA Draft after playing for FC Barcelona. Instead of heading to the NBA though, he remained overseas. Last season, the center was loaned to Girona in Spain, and after an agreement to leave, was then loaned to Merkezefendi in Turkey.
Nnaji played a combined 22 contests with the two teams in 2024-25. With them, he posted averages of 6.1 points, 4.0 rebounds, 0.2 assists, 0.5 steals, and 1.0 blocks in 16.3 minutes. Nnaji shot 70.3% from the field and 51.7% from the free-throw line.
great from the field horrible from the line no threes
I don’t know if that’s great from the field because when I looked at the highlight reel someone linked to yesterday, a lot of his shots were dunks.
Imagine a league where valuations are primarily driven by TV/media packages and where the two best teams mid season are in 3rd-tier markets.
To fix this conundrum, imagine if a team owned by a casino operator who has paid hefty fines in the past to avoid criminal prosecution made a historically lopsided trade, particularly as it relates to future competitiveness, to another sports franchise. And that other sport franchise turns around almost immediately and out of nowhere sells itself for a price £3billion above its estimated valuation (last valued in Dec 2024).
Everybody wins other than the casino operated team. Oh wait…
I get why people are saying the Thunder don’t seem like all that but two things:
1. It’s the Pacers. They’re really good and they matchup perfectly with the Thunder in a way few other teams can.
2. It’s really early for them. Like year 2. Most dynasties are still struggling to get over their nemesis in the 2nd or 3rd round at this point.
They’re going to be a lot better if they win. All these role players who disappear will have the confidence of champions. And Chet is really raw still.
Another random thing people are saying I think doesn’t make sense:
The Cavs are not playoff viable.
A 64 juggernaut getting taken out by the Pacers is clearly not the disqualifying event folks made it out to be. That team is still way ahead of us in the East pecking order.
Not really seeing that Mikal is even better than Obi at this point. There’s certainly nothing in the numbers to support it.
Kind of forgot how low the Thunder had sunk even a short time ago. The night Presti predictably took Leon to the cleaners, his team had just finished a season with 21 pythag wins, 28th in SRS.
https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/6436187/2025/06/20/knicks-2025-nba-draft/?source=emp_shared_article
Edwards running through a bunch of potential draft picks if we stay at 50. As you might expect from that position, it’s a bunch of players with various kinds of flaws, but also strengths: a dead-eyed shooter with questionable defense, a jack of all trades/master of none, all-around talent with questionable athleticism, etc.
Meanwhile, Hollinger with the power forward free agency breakdown:
https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/6433197/2025/06/20/nba-free-agency-2025-power-forward-market/
Guys who could be gettable for the exception or on a minimum:
Trey Lyles
Jabari Walker (with Precious listed in between Lyles and him)
Guerschon Yabusele
Chris Boucher
Trendon Watford
Nic Batum
Sandro Mamukelashvili
Bol Bol
Jeremiah Robinson-Earl
Jeff Green
Marvin Bagley
sdog brought up lyles around this time yesterday morning and here he is again i like yabusele or watford do not want 84 year old jeff green
To another point made last night, it was really surprising the way so many OkC players disappeared on offense. They really do need live ball turnovers to juice their scoring.
I wonder how good the OKC offense is when you take points off turnovers out of the equation.
OKC isn’t that skilled a team. I guess it can work when all the other teams sort for the same “3 & D” types.
No question there’s a Moneyball (*) opportunity for the first GM who’s independent enough to break away from the herd and stop sorting for and preferring those guys, and instead buying relatively cheaper all-around skill even if it’s not as “efficient.”
I personally from an aesthetic sense am kind of tiring of the Lu Dorts of the basketball world.
(*) In the purest sense of the term.
Can I ask which poster this “Lil Penny” guy is before I call his comment calling a 68-win team with the 2nd-best net rating IN NBA HISTORY that’s in the Finals with a roster that gives 90% of its minutes to players under 27 “[not] that skilled a team a total fucking moron?
Seriously, this might be the dumbest comment I’ve seen in 15 years of skimming this site for dumb fucking takes. Is this Kendrick Perkins’ burner account? Is this a testing ground for a First Take producer’s idiotic takes about basketball?
The 2nd-best net rating IN LEAGUE HISTORY.
We all get dumber from comments like this. Delete your account.
I hate to break it to you but “Lil Penny” is ptmilo’s newest handle, Jowles
In my mind, the Haliburton shot from g1 missed and we just brought OKC to 7.
In my mind.
Lil’ Penny is the poster formerly known as “E”. You must have missed his hundreds of pro RJ Barrett posts.😂
Repeating: “I guess it can work when all the other teams sort for the same “3 & D” types.”
The regular season is an aggregation.
Within a universe where players aren’t sorted for all-around basketball skill.
Shooting the basketball is a skill. Shooting the basketball from 23 feet 9 inches, as opposed to say, 21 feet is not a basketball skill.
I mean, don’t get me wrong, the guy whose range extends to 23-9 is more skilled all else equal to the guy whose range extends only to 21 feet, shooting range being a core basketball skill. But a guy who makes 36 percent from 23-9 isn’t more skilled a shooter than the guy who makes 53 percent (*) from 22 feet.
The math distorts the game and therefore the skill we see on display. The trifecta is not 50 percent more difficult, yet it counts for 50 percent more points. The less-skilled player who by happenstance counts two feet more range within his skill set will therefore have a place in the league, and will crowd out the more overall skilled player — even if in reality even his shooting skill itself isn’t even necessarily better.
This happenstance over-credited skill will also crowd out things like better defenders.
That’s the universe in which OKC has put together that net rating.
(*) Or even like 47 percent.
Another day, another thread strangled in the cradle by E
Don’t love any of the options in this draft at our slot. In fact, I think it runs out of useful players at around 40.
Unless the Knicks move up, I’d just take the youngest, rawest player on the board and bet on potential upside (because we are going to need players once this Brunson window is over).
That leaves mostly Euros like Markovic, Zikarsky, or Almansa.
Or the wonderfully named Dink Pate.
EDIT: Kaminari, you just elicited a loud guffaw over here. Well done.
I haven’t figured him out yet.
Watching the game it seems to me like he’s always hitting some key shot and is critical to the team, but seeing a -40 is only half shocking to me. His on/off for the year was -8, he was only +1.5 last year and was negative in his rookie year. He’s -3.3 for his career. I haven’t analyzed all the lineup data, but having a very strong bench has something to do with it. Then again, Shai was +11.1 for the season.
no dink pate please
I have seen quite a few suggestions on these innanets regarding a Bridges for John Collins deal. Um…no? On the surface it looks good- but are we really so desperate to make a move that we’d trade an Ironman for a guy who’s never played a full season? And then rely on said player to help cover for KAT on defense? Simply..nah
HI JOWLES!
E is the resident idiot savant…heavy on the idiot, light on the savant.
TJ McConnell is one of the most unique players I’ve ever watched. He plays at a speed that one rarely sees in the NBA, and his piss-ugly jumper masks a very high level of offensive skill. He has great court vision and anticipation on both ends and is a master of the basketball chess match.
I remember very well how he used to torch us when he was with Philly and I used to wonder, is this an outlier game or is he actually a very good player masquerading as a scrub?
I think we have an answer now.
The one guy who comes to mind as to his speed in the offensive halfcourt is another diminuitive two-initial guy…JJ Barea. TJ tilts more towards pesky defender and pass-first PG, and JJ was a really good scorer, but both had this knack for dominating the tempo if the game while on the floor.
Collins I guess gives you a stretchy 4 to play with Towns and shifts Obi down a step. Utah would probably want too much
Ever see the movie Twins? ptmilo is Arnold and E is Danny DeVito
I actually can abide the take that the 3PT math being far too rewarding forces teams to over index on a very particular skill, often at the expense of other, more holistic skills we traditionally associate with being good at basketball. It’s at least arguable that the aesthetic experience suffers when someone like Isaiah Joe is objectively more conducive to winning than, say, Brandon Ingram.
Of course, E is characteristically playing fast and loose with the is/ought distinction. He wants to say OKC would be better with RJ Barrett over e.g. Dort and walks right up to that line before retreating a bit to the “ought” side of things, because he probably knows that’s laughable.
There is oddly a lot of Thibs’ offense in OKC: conservative, efficient, uncreative, lots of talent seemingly underutilized. One could easily see Thunderblogger.net becoming frustrated with their halfcourt offense if they weren’t so good at generating turnovers.
But they are so good at it, so this low-risk approach is probably the right move even though it can look pretty ugly on a bad night. Players this young aren’t supposed to be very good in the NBA Finals.
It would not surprise if Carlisle steals this game 7. I would put together my own conservative game plan that limits turnovers, then count on those young guys tensing up like MFers.
I loved OKC coming into the season, but by mid season they were outperforming my projection on offense by quite a bit. When I tried to explain it, I noticed that they generated a LOT of TOs and were very efficient that way. It reminded me of the Knicks being OK on offense but all the extra OREBs turning us into a much better offense than shooting, playmaking etc.. . suggested.
I never tried to do the math required to figure out how critical their defense is to their offense. I’m not sure I could with available data. But before the start of the series I said the Pacers could win the series if they kept their TOs down. It’s critical enough to matter.
Maybe we need a 2.5 point shot. 😉
Textbook example: Mikal Bridges for his career, even after a very good year this year, is shooting .367 from between 16 feet and the trifecta line. That would be unplayable without the distorted math.
OG’s shooting .360. Here are OG’s career percentages from the other BB-ref ranges, beyond the rim:
3-10 feet: .338
10-16 feet: .358
16 feet-trifecta: .360.
There’s no real sense in which it can be said that OG Anunoby (*) shoots the basketball well. He is in fact an unskilled shooter of the basketball.
(*) I don’t mean to pick on him in particular; I’m sure there are a ton of similar examples.
E prefers “skilled” players like RJ Barrett, Dejounte Murray, and Cam Reddish. Guys like Lu Dort can’t hold a candle to the Dejountes and Cams of the world. You want to be good at basketball, you need players with moxie like RJ Barrett.
OKC had a good half court offense in the regular season, I don’t know where it’s gone
Yes, I prefer watching basketball with skilled players playing it.
Guilty as charged.
I’ll say it again. I think Kolek could learn a lot watching TJ McConnell.
The three-point shot is a gimmick put in place out of desperation to try to gin up interest in the professional game when several NBA games were played in front of smaller crowds than used to watch our games at Podunk High.
Even though no other sport counts successful efforts from longer distances as higher-scored events, it was perfectly fine as an occasional thing for many years after its adoption. But once the math of it got hacked and then the player pool sorted out to exploit that math, it grew out of control and far beyond its original intent. It’s time to rein it in.
To make it worse, OG’s and Mikal’s shooting numbers inside trifecta land are in an environment wherein those spaces on the floor are more open than before the trifecta revolution. Getting a good shot away from, say, 15 feet used to be far harder. (And again I don’t mean to single them out; there are certainly countless other examples.)
I think the issue with OG is that he’s not highly skilled at shooting while moving but he’s skilled if he’s not. So the idea is to improve his ball handling, shooting off the dribble, finishing off the dribble etc.. If he can’t do that, then up his efficiency by telling him to do less of that and just accept being 4th option that’s getting paid a HUGE pile of money to be an elite defender that shoots open 3s and dunks on cuts and in transition.
Dejounte Murray has a career eFG+ and TS+ of 92 and was one of the worst players in the NBA this past season.
Skilled!
Post of the day so far!
And with that, my work here is done. All the rest is noise.
OKC is +9.7 with Jalen on, so it’s not like they’re losing his minutes. They’re just an absurd +17.7 when he sits. I suspect he’s playing all of the non-SGA minutes, which dents his value.
His TS% was slightly below league average this year and his playoff TS% is down to .549, so he’s probably miscast as a #1 scorer when SGA is on the bench, at least for now.
Btw not only was E’s comment not dumb, it’s actually intelligent.
“Not that skilled” doesn’t mean “not that good.” This should be pretty obvious.
The Thunder are the embodiment of 3&D analytics. They’re like a baseball team where every player hits a lot of home runs, gets a lot of walks, and strikes out too often. Of course they’re great, those are the most valuable things you can do.
But when you face a sinker ball pitcher who throws bowling balls in the strike zone, suddenly your whole approach is nullified, and you need something else.
When teams stop committing turnovers against the Thunder, it has been consistently clear that they do not have that something else, which is the skill E was referring to. They all have a skill, but outside the top 3, it’s the same skill: 3&D.
And Chet’s been useless while Jalen’s been inconsistent, so that lack of variety in their skillsets has been on display.
No one on the Thunder’s 4-10 is an excellent secondary creator like Andrew Nembhardt, an unstoppable lightning bug like TJ McConnell, or instant offense like Obi Toppin.
They’re just all better at 3 and D.
And look who piped up to lick his hero’s asshole again in a transparent reach for approval at another person’s expense.
dred i am not sure why we care about shifting obi down a step since he has not been on our team for a couple of years now
I actually think OKC would have been better off keeping Josh Giddey. Caruso is great at what he does, but Giddey (3 BPM this season) would have given them an additional playmaker, and he’s still only 22. On paper it seems like the kind of trade that helped both teams, and maybe OKC takes game 7 and rattles off a few championships anyway. But Giddey, the Bulls version, does seem like a player they really could use right now.
The thunder have (for the series) turned Indy over at a normal rate for them. Whatever Indy is doing to OKCs offense it is not just not turning the ball over
giddey the bulls version also seems like a player we could use right now
“And look who piped up to lick his hero’s asshole again in a transparent reach for approval.”
Don’t worry hubie, as long as E’s in town you won’t be the dumbest poster here! Most disgusting maybe…
mean
OKC is one home game away from the first championship in their franchise’s history after a 68-14 season. Seems a bit odd to be quibbling about their mix of players.
I also don’t get the point of comparing Brandon Ingram to Isaiah Joe. They are two very different players in very different roles on very different contracts.
The Caruso vs. Giddey comparison is more interesting, but I would have to disagree with JK. Caruso is putting up a playoffs-leading 4.8 DBPM in the playoffs. He is also putting up a .604 TS% on a 15% usage. I don’t think Giddey would have had nearly the impact that Caruso has, and he’s due for an extension. I get that Giddey had a breakout year, but it was for a shitty team under no pressure.
It’s definitely more.
For one thing, Chet has vanished. Whether IND gets credit for that or he’s just not ready, I don’t know. Probably a little both.
And Jalen’s been inconsistent. See Chet above.
But the turnover statistics are also a little misleading. OKC had two dominant turnover games (1 & 5) that make it look like they’re turning IND over consistent with what they normally do.
But last night IND only had 11. In game 3 it was 14. Both below OKC’s regular amount (they’re averaging 17.8 in the playoffs). And those are the games where everyone has commented on their offense.
OKC has a lot of skill but it doesn’t have a wide variety of skills, which is what I took E’s comment to mean. They’ve loaded up on the most valuable skills, so they’re great. But in this series you can see the limitation of that approach.
Put another way: I imagine right now Sam Presti very much wishes he had one more creator instead of 5 clones who do the same thing. (That’s likely what Nikola Topic will be next year.)
i cannot meet later today i am off after 1pm
Regardless, it was a very valid point, not at all one that warranted personal insults and an ugly, gleeful gang up.
The other thing to discuss with Nnaji is his rookie salary could make maneuvering under the 2nd apron easier if we choose to use the TP-MLE.
Also, Rokas said he wouldn’t return to SL, claiming he’s shown everything he needs to. I’d still like to see what he has, but we don’t really need another guard.
Precious said he’d consider returning to NY now that Thibs is gone.
It’s really weird how defense wins championships until it doesn’t. This is the best defense since the Spurs, Pistons and Ron Artest nearly strangled the league into irrelevance. But now they’re not that skilled because the Pacers stole Game 1 and are largely playing like the 58-win team they actually are. Okay.
neither of those teams won exactly 58 games okc won 68 and indy won 50
wtf Doogie? If blogging at work is too tricky for you, maybe wait til you get home?
Precious said he’d consider returning to NY now that Thibs is gone.
I can’t think of one, but replacing Precious and Thibs with other names has got to be something to laugh at.
It’s funny, I’ve been wondering why Isaiah Joe isn’t playing this series… they could really use his shooting. When Joe gets hot, he can go on runs like Nesmith’s against us (sigh).
Not sure where this comes from, maybe it’s been a thing around here at one time or another, but I’ve never said it and never believed it. It’s a hoary boomer cliche that isn’t remotely true. In basketball, football, or any other sport.
They’re not that skilled because they’re not that skilled. They take advantage of distorted basketball math within and against a universe wherein every other team is also targeting said math.
Rather than the loaded term “efficient,” which has its own independent meeting, let’s use the term “effective” to denote teams that are very or extremely good in the post-trifecta revolution association.(*)
The Thunder are an extremely effective basketball team. No question about it. That said, if I had one game or a seven-game series to win, I’d trade Alex Caruso for Josh Giddey without blinking an eye. Why? Because the offense is much less likely to grind to a halt with him, and would be far more versatile, and much harder to target and stop, and Caruso’s defense, excellent as it is, doesn’t make up for that delta. Defense does not, in fact, win championships.
If you put truth serum in Sam Presti, I bet he’d say the same thing.
(*) There might be better terms. I took my swing at one. Some of these “effective” teams are surely also “skilled.” But the Thunder aren’t particularly skilled.
Alex Caruso career shooting percentages:
3-10 feet: .334
10-16 feet: .326
16-trifecta: .271.
Boy can’t really shoot a basketball in any serious sense. What he can do is shoot the ball almost always from a standing start from 23-9, based on the efforts of others, at a percentage (.376) that, while certainly not “good” in any real sense, can work given the math of basketball. But add any movement, add any twist in feet placement, add any stop and start, add any unpredictability or surprise in spacial player location, add anything out of that extremely narrow comfort zone, and he can’t shoot a basketball.
Among a bunch of other things, that’s what’s meant by basketball “skill.”
He’s a very skilled defender, including in the various components that make up the whole.
In terms of the aesthetics of it all, if your thing is watching shooters who can’t really shoot make 37 or 38 of every hundred catch and shoots, great, that’s your thing … but that pales in comparison to other skills and athleticism that can be displayed by high-end players on a basketball court. To a lot of eyes, it’s gotten real old.
This is like the perfect snapshot of Knickerblogger psychosis.
E doing his damnedest to highjack the whole thread in his daily effort to get attention, despite saying some of the dumbest things imaginable.
Hubert inexplicably defending E, and then pivoting to attack Z-Man with accusations of ass-eating (seriously, Hubert, was that a bad breakfast shrimp?).
JK using ‘logic’ and ‘statistics’ to prove E’s points laughably absurd.
Jowles being mean, which for me just lights up my life.
Doogie being a world-class dumb-ass clown and including his work texts in the thread (unless it’s a schtick, in which case, don’t).
Looking forward to more classic moments…
Now Josh Giddey, OTOH, can shoot a basketball. Career of .453 from 3-10 (.500 this year); .442 from 10-16.
He can also create shots for himself in those ranges, which is why he makes far more of them.
Then add in the court vision, ability to break down a defense, the 8.6 assists/36, the nearly 10 rebounds/36, and it becomes obvious that he’s simply a far more skilled basketball player than Alex Caruso.
Other than the fact they’re both white guards, I can’t think of any similarities in their game. Very different players.
Goddey almost never shoots anywhere not near the basket unless he’s wide open, because (at least until this season) he couldn’t shoot. Shooting a nice percentage on a shot you attempt less than once a game is pretty irrelevant and doesn’t suggest a high level of shot making skill
Like I said, Raven, it’s gonna be a LONG summer.
Something about this team and franchise finally being pretty good and going farther than we have in 25 years is bringing out the crazy in people (me included).
Life was so much easier when we could all just make gallows humor jokes about Mudiay.
I defended the argument. There have been more than a few games this postseason where people wondered how the Thunder ended up among the best teams ever.
Murderbot Diaries volume 2 & 3 have arrived – today is a very good day…
the writing is very easy and straightforward, not too scientific, pulpy kind of…i really like how authors use androids as a means for closely examining the human condition…
more so than anything – it’s not all this depressing dystopian vibe, which can make for good drama, but…
who needs and/or wants constant drama in their life…
This Giddy Caruso argument however I cannot abide. Alex Caruso has been the terminator in this postseason. OKC would make that trade again 100 times.
Giddy instead of Aaron Wiggins would be nice, but not Alex Caruso. I can’t tell you how many times I wish we had just kept Donte and Randle and traded for Caruso instead of Bridges.
Caruso is #1 in 4yr DRAPM. He’s got a variety of defensive skills and they’re all at a very high level. Giddey might have more offensive skills, but they aren’t at all that high of a level. At some point they can hardly be called skills.
Caruso also adds 4.6 asts/36 for his career. So it’s not like he’s only standing in a corner.
Giddey hitting a midrange shot once every 2.3 games is hardly a skill.
Hubert, I think Occam’s Razor is the (as usual) obvious answer, which is that OKC is a bunch of kids. They’re possibly the youngest, least experienced championship contender out there. I mean, Caruso is the old man at 31 (and I somehow think he’s still 25). The fact that they’ve been struggling to do one of the hardest things in sports, close out a world championship, is to be expected in my book.
They have other guys who are Caruso-lite. They don’t have other guys who are Giddey-lite.
Caruso in a vacuum is the better player, but they’re a little lacking in the shot creation department. You could probably cobble together a reasonable Caruso facsimile by doling out more minutes to the guys they already have, but it’s the lack of shot creation and passing that is bedeviling them in some of these games.
be careful giving donnie too much hope raven…it’ll only break his heart more when/if they lose on sunday…so so close…
Here’s the ’98 Bulls top-6 players by minutes from 10-16ft:
MJ – .416
Rodman – .333
Harper – .278
Kukoc – .344
Longley – .342
Pippen – .289
Here’s the ’25 OKC top 6(*):
SGA – .548
Jalen – .523
Dort – .429
Wallace – .407
Wiggins – .457
Joe – .313
(*) Hartenstein is 7th with a .509 on 22%(!) of his attempts and Caruso was 9th in mintues with a .500 in that range
Caruso is shooting .326 for his career from 10-16 feet.
The 1998 numbers aren’t comparable. That area was much more crowded and much more explicitly defended then. Now, most defenses don’t even care much if you want to launch 16 footers.
SGA and J-Dub are both shooting very well from that range because they’re very skilled players. The fact that they’re both over .500 from there proves the point very well.
They’d have been an entirely worthy 1-2 in 1998. Not *quite* Jordan-Pippen, but that’s the best 1-2 wing combination in association history.
Exactly. They’re missing their Kukoc. Giddey’s a fair comp. Rodman and Harper were Caruso and Dort, with the rankings being Rodman, Caruso, Dort, Harper. (Pre-knee injury Harper was better than both Caruso and Dort, but by 1998, Harper was mostly D and facilitation.)
Yeah but those guys lack his game-wrecking ability. Unleashing him against backups and tired starters at the end of their shifts has been huge.
Mitch gives us the same thing, btw. People need to reimagine what a 6th man can be. Everyone wants Josh Hart off the bench. I want Mitch, in the Destroyer role, like Caruso. That is one hell of a weapon. That is our TJ McConnell.
In fact, if you want to sum up the difference between skill and “effectiveness” in one single data point, you can’t do much better than these career 10-16 foot shooting percentages:
Shai Gilgeous-Alexander — .503
Jalen Williams — .516
Alex Caruso — .326
OG Anunoby — .358
Mikal’s at .475, which again proves the point. He’s more skilled, which is why he was able to do Brooklyn Spring 2023 and why the hope was that he could be when he got here somewhere between Phoenix and Brooklyn Spring. The biggest problem with him seems to be that, while he can still “shoot the basketball” in the true skill sense, his effective range seems to be slipping back behind the magic 23 feet, 9 inches mark.
Good back and forth.
Even with their shots being more heavily contested, those percentages show that the 98 Bulls had zero skill from the midrange outside of MJ, and even he was borderline from that distance.
How often has shooting from 10-16ft been an NBA skill significantly more valuable than spinning a basketball on your finger? Maybe the Bulls were an outlier, and they were the team I just happened to pick, but after the 3pt line was implemented and before defenses started keying in on 3PAs (probably under Thibs in Boston) was the midrange shot ever really a skill?
There’s a couple player exceptions certainly, Jokic, CP3, SGA, etc. But is Giddey’s shotmaking from 10-16ft even a meaningful skill at 44% on 1 attempt a game? Where is that line?
And re: The Bulls. Does Rodman count as unskilled because he can’t shoot even though he’s supremely skilled at rebounding and defense?
If we’re accounting for talent at a skill instead of just counting the number of different skills, Caruso is more skilled than Giddey.
This didn’t pass the smell test so I picked two guys off the top of my head…
Chris Webber — .346
Allen Iverson — .370
No skills?
hadn’t thought about it, that’s funny though…
Neither really shot the basketball that well beyond the rim. That’s the skill being measured.
Allen Iverson’s career FG% was .425. That’s brutal.
No one anywhere, anytime would have said Chris Webber shot the basketball well.
The idea behind the exercise was to see whether surface passable 3 point percentages that got you the math advantage were the product of someone otherwise being a good shooter of the basketball. Confirm for SGA and J-Dub, fail for Caruso and OG.
It seemed you were suggesting it was a stand in for being skilled. As if getting to the basket isn’t a skill. Like poor Scottie Pippen kept getting all the way to the rim bc he didn’t have the skill to shoot from 10 feet away.
rift
Probably didn’t explain it well enough, then.
Skilled versus “effective.” Caruso and OG, because of math, are effective but not skilled shooters. SGA and J-Dub are both.
There’s also more skill and creativity that goes into those percentages than just the raw numbers themselves. Ability to stop and gather on balance, ability to change direction, body control, ability to discern pressure from multiple directions, etc. They aren’t just catch-and-shoot shots like most threes.
We all see how limited OG is in dribbling to a spot in that general range and then gathering and then doing anything positive — be it shooting the ball himself, or something else. That’s what I mean, and that’s a lack of skill in pure distilled form. But notwithstanding that lack of skill, he can still be effective offensively because of math.
But as you’ve noted, too many “math” guys and your offense is prone to bogging down and getting countered. That’s what we’re seeing with OKC.
last six seasons: total of 81 nba players attempted at least 1500 shots from 3-22 feet, and the median hit 45.2%. the second least efficient gunner of the 81, jalen green, made 37.6% on 1682 shots. well ahead of one skill player who hit 35.1% of 2137 shots.
Of course getting to the rim on your own is a skill. Getting there not on your own also is, but not as much of one.
Win or lose, it’s been an incredibly fun few months rooting for these guys and sharing it with you all. Hopefully Haliburton and Co. have 48 more minutes of magic in them. But come Monday morning the cows gotta be milked and the corns gotta be shucked. We don’t have the luxury of dwelling on our miseries and wallowing in our dissatisfaction. That’s what we in the Heartland call “a Big Market problem”.
Giddey is a career .330 shooter from 3
Caruso is at .376
OG is at .375 and makes 50% more 3s per 36
This also seems like a skill to me. It also seems like it should weigh on an opinion of Giddey’s shooting.
OG gets to the rim for a higher percentage of his shots and makes a higher percentage once there. Skill?
yes, okay…sunday sunday sunday…
that is what we call udder ridiculousness no matter where we are
OKC has been forced or schemed or tricked into not passing the ball anymore and they’re attempting about 11 fewer 3s per game than they did in the regular season.
Shooting’s the skill. Shooting from 23-9 as opposed to 20 or 18 or 22 isn’t.
It is if it shows your range, but it doesn’t show your range if you shoot 370 from 23-9 and 350 or whatever from 18. (See, yet again: SGA and J-Dub, confirmed as good shooters and possessors of the shooting skill by other outside shooting data; OG/Caruso, not confirmed.)
But the main takeaway is that shooting from 23-9 isn’t a skill qua shooting from 23-9. That’s a completely arbitrary and distorted line. It has no independent meaning and no impact on skillset.
Percentage of shots at the rim doesn’t measure anything because the denominator is total shots, which depends on to a large degree on creativity and skill. I’m sure guys like Rodman and Mitch and Truck Robinson shot most of their shots at the rim, too.
Yeah, we know it does, but it isn’t. That’s the whole entire debate. There’s nothing magic about 23-9. It’s arbitrary and capricious. You get a math advantage at that distance, but that has nothing to do with skill.
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Donnie do you and the Sixers still text?
It could be the Pacers’ rotations. They have been exceptional, and I think a lot of these OKC role players don’t feel comfortable without a lot of daylight.
Okay, but the 3pt line is part of basketball, so it is a basketball skill.
And shooting with greater range is still a skill. The difference between .330 and .375 is meaningful.
And if Giddey has a similar skill level on deep shots as OG, why can’t Giddey get off as many 3pt attempts as OG?
If OG is taking shots that are worth more points behind an arbitrary line that requires no more skill than in front of the line, does that speak to OG having a higher basketball IQ than Giddey? Does that count as a skill?
OG takes 13.7 fga/36. Giddey takes 13.6. So even accounting for number of shots, OG gets to the basket on a higher % of shots.
I think we’re once again seeing Carlisle out coach an opponent. How good is Daigneault? He doesn’t really need to be that good to win with OKC.
It’s not just the OKC players that are inexperienced, Daigneault coached 10 playoff games before this season, Carlisle had coached 150.
E, I think we need to address the real crisis in basketball, and that’s the lack of reward for shots made from out of bounds.
When a player makes this shot from inside the legal playing field they call it a “field goal” and reward that player points! Conversely players who excel at the clearly more difficult and impressive basketball skill of making shots from out of bounds get NOTHING!
This arbitrary and capricious disparity cannot stand. I hope you’ll join me tomorrow at picketing Adam Silver’s personal residence in protest of this arcane and unfair math disparity.
We also need to look at the unfair prejudices against players who make shots with the clock stopped or during halftime. Why shouldn’t their points count!? I’m tired of this bullshit of rewarding arbitrary adherence to “rules” instead of pure basketball skill.
Assisted baskets are a pretty big part of the picture. OG was assisted on 72% of his 2pt attempts so rarely creates his own shot. Giddey was assisted on only 41% of his 2pt attempts, so he’s creating his own shot far more often. He has the ball in his hands a lot. OG does a lot of drifting to the corner waiting for somebody to pass the ball to him so he can shoot a 3.
Giddey has been a really good player for a season and a half now.
“The 2nd-best net rating IN LEAGUE HISTORY.”
And if the Pacers win Game 7 on the road, that will mean…what, exactly? What if the Thunder lose on Sunday but win the championship next season with a completely pedestrian net rating? Would that mean THIS team is somehow better than THAT team?
And by the way, what did Jowles think of last season’s Celtics? Their play-by-play radio hump WOULD NOT SHUT UP about how “historically” great they were based on the same sort of analytics.
Oh, and I forgot. What was the net rating of that Dallas Mavericks team that won the title over LeBron, Wade, and Bosh?
Giddey takes 2 pull up shots a game. Shooting 40% on those is better than shooting 32% but it’s not really a big part of his game, nor a particularly effective part. He’s good at getting into the paint or to the rim and scoring there or getting fouled. He’s still not shooting 3s unless he’s wide open.
Overall he’s a good player despite his middling usage and efficiency, but because he’s a great playmaker and maybe a good defender. He’s also still 22 so he’s got plenty of time to work on his shooting. Would he swing the finals? I think OKC could use some more playmaking but Indy would also be sagging off him on defense like teams were last year.
A lot of the comparisons of three point shooting percentages to mid range shooting percentages are a little unfair. Three point shots are often catch snd shoot shots because offenses are set up to generate catch snd shoot shots there. But mid range shots are usually off the dribble. Almost nobody sets plays to generate catch snd shoots from the mid range. Since catch snd shoot shots are easier to make than off the dribble shots, this biases the statistics in favor of three pointers. It would be more fair to compare off the dribble percentages for three pointers with mid range percentages when assessing “skill levele”.
Essentially, offensive schemes pump up three point percentages relative to mid range ones.
The Pacers aren’t jealous of my ex-wife the New York Knicks, why would they care if I slept with the Sixers for a night or two 11 months before we even started dating?
Some incredibly dumb shit being posted here today. (Well, MBunge is in the mix, so it’s sort of a given…)
One of the things being terribly underrated here is Indiana’s defense. It’s surprising (well not really) because they totally gummed up everything we tried to do, and are doing the same to OKC, albeit with a bit less success because OKC is are a better team than the Knicks. Instead, folks are criticizing Thibs and Daigneault rather than crediting both Carlisle and the Pacers’ personnel. Seems like amateur hour here. Is anyone actually watching the games?
Do people other than Pacers fan Donnie Walsh not realize that Carlisle has been out coaching everyone?
would seem somewhat obvious to heavily favor the thunder on sunday – however, tricky ricky for the pacers is doing one heck of a coaching job this post season…
I was happy earlier to read luke weaver was back for the yanks…sports are just so cruel…
Really glad coaching doesn’t matter, because otherwise Carlisle might have the Pacers a game from winning the world championship.
And that’s with his star having one leg in the graveyard
(…and the other one is giving a high five…)
oh man, kind of bummed – just found out juice wrld ain’t here no more…
been letting the kids take over the music while driving…one of my favorite tunes they play is wishing well…
perky got me itching like an anthill…dang, hearing the truth hits hard…asked the boys if juice wrld had anything newer out, no luck, he didn’t make it…
I think Carlisle is excellent at his job and has been for 25 years. Sometimes his players play excellently as well and make him look great (like the past few months), and sometimes his players play poorly and make him look bad (like in 2010). I think that firing him at any point in his career would have been silly.
I also think that he is getting a disproportionate amount of credit here for having the Pacers still playing basketball in late June than he deserves because I think it is easier for knick fans to rationalize that the knicks were out-coached rather than out-played, when, in reality, they were equal parts both.