I know it’s the middle of the night for most of you, but maybe you’ll read this in the morning.
KFNINJ, i think that is the superpower of this Pacers team, they’re great and every team thinks they’re better than them and they should win… the Knicks fell for it, and it’s very hard to overcome that because you put a lot of unfair pressure on your shoulders by thinking you’re better than them when you’re not. If the Knicks entered the ECF thinking it was a close battle and every play would count, i think we could’ve prevailed. Funny enough, not even in the Finals they’re getting the respect they deserve. Well, if OKC is still thinking they’re better and the Pacers “steal” game 2 like they did to us, it’ll be game over.
What I don’t get about the Giannis rumors is what can the Knicks even offer for Giannis that other teams can’t beat? What would a “tsunami-sized” offer for Giannis be?
Think tsunami, Brian. Use your imagination. Pretend you’re Naomi Watts.
Or, you know, think Melo.
I hope we all enjoyed the last two years… It was fun (kinda).
I can’t imagine it’s anything we’d be happy with.
They’ve already traded their first round picks, though, right?
What I don’t get about the Giannis rumors is what can the Knicks even offer for Giannis that other teams can’t beat? What would a “tsunami-sized” offer for Giannis be?
there is none. but woelfel is bucks-sourced and putting a prom dress on rumors probably makes sense for them. unless of course giannis was planning to demand a trade to nyk. then it only makes sense for his agents.
We can only get Giannis if he wants to come here and they decide to him a solid… This does get the bidding war going if they really are going to trade him… If we had canned Thibs a year earlier, maybe we could have grabbed Atkinson… I still can’t believe we traded Obi for 2 second round picks… smh
If Leon is eventually fired, the first question for potential replacements should be “Who would you prefer to have in your starting lineup as your 1A-2 option: KAT or Siakam?”
Any candidate who prefers KAT should immediately be shown the door.
Never say never, but the chances of Giannis being traded here in a way that makes sense for Milwaukee are extremely remote…and that’s including possibilities that don’t make sense for us.
Again, that’s the tragedy of the Bridges trade. All of those beautiful picks squandered for a player of the caliber you could have picked up at less than half the cost…you virtually slammed the door on future transactions of this nature during the Brunson window.
wait what, no basketball today…oh man 😞
this nba season is coming to a rapid end…
Since we’re doing a Leon retrospective, consider this:
– he had one excellent run of player transacations: Brunson, Hartenstein, Hart, Donte, OG.
– everything he did before and after would fit seamlessly on the resume of Isiah Thomas, Phil Jackson, or Steve Mills.
There’s no denying how good those moves were. By making them Leon ushered in the best era in modern Knicks history.
But if you take a step back and examine his record it paints a pretty clear picture. He’s the GM equivalent of when Trey Burke had a great year for us by hitting an unsustainable amount of long twos.
think Melo
To Z-Man’s point, the irony of the Melo tsumami offer was that Chris Paul became available six months later and went for a smaller package. D’Antoni needed a PG, not a duplicative forward, but the cupboard was empty and, well, here we are.
Not to repeat what has already been said but if we’ve fired Thibs bc we think he lost the locker room and didn’t utilize the current roster to its best abilities, it doesn’t really make sense to blow up the roster. Get a new coach, shore up the bench and see what happens. Even if you eventually want to move on from KAT, Mikal, etc…it makes sense to let them play under a new coach and system and possibly up their trade value. Giannis only makes sense if there’s a trade that doesn’t force us to deplete the already thin roster, which seems impossible.
“– everything he did before and after would fit seamlessly on the resume of Isiah Thomas, Phil Jackson, or Steve Mills.”
Not true. For all my misgivings about KAT, more value came in than went out. We will continue to agree to disagree on the OG trade, I believe that was a net win for the Knicks.
OTOH, I agree with those who believe that iHart could have been retained on a slightly more expensive deal that involved better Bird rights, and that Aller has gotten too cute with the salary cap machinations, especially around the draft. And of course there was drafting Obi over Hali. But by and large, everything was recoverable until the Bridges deal.
We will continue to agree to disagree on the OG trade, I believe that was a net win for the Knicks.
I put the OG trade on the list of his excellent moves. We can quibble about the extension but the trade was great.
We can agree to disagree about the value in KAT, though. I think Randle, Donte, and the 17th pick is approximate value. I also think KAT is a lot less desirable on the trade market that most think. His contract is bad.
“To Z-Man’s point, the irony of the Melo tsumami offer…”
…was that you paid an enormous sum for a player who, like KAT, was deeply flawed and overpaid for his overall impact on winning. At least with KAT, you got him on a bargain deal compared to what was bantered around here on KB in the years preceding the actual trade.
But a smart GM would understand that KAT’s main value is his trade value. You already have to think about building around Brunson’s defensive (and to a degree offensive) limitations. To have to do that for a second player in building a championship-level team is an extremely difficult proposition, and with the paltry assets we have left, virtually impossible without fleecing some moronic opposing GM.
KAT is the only asset we really have that has “potential” outsized value on the trade market, although I fear most GMs have gotten past the point of being deluded by his box score-based stats. I don’t think anyone out there is giving us a load of unprotected picks or a legit superstar or two potentially excellent young players for him. But hey, here’s to hoping that there are some morons out there who can be fleeced…other then Leon.
Anyway I’m pretty sure I know what Leon’s next move is. Look away now if you don’t want it spoiled.
The combined salaries of OG, Mitch, and Tyler Kolek is $54,715,409
Kevin Durant makes $54,708,609
You really can’t have Thibs as your coach if the plan is Brunson, KAT, and Durant.
Leon’s weird/bad approach to the draft and draft picks in general is going to come back to haunt us one day. Probably one day sooner than we think. Not next year, and maybe not the year after, but soon.
OG Anunoby is the youngest player in this core group. Next year will be his age 28 season. Miles McBride is the only playable guy on the roster under 25, and he’ll be 25 next year. All these guys are going to start hitting their decline phases at the same time. We owe five future unprotected firsts, and probably three of those are going to be due as this team starts declining.
I don’t see our window as very long, and once that window is closed things are going to get bleak quickly. Leon has taken us farther than I thought he ever would, but he has some serious blind spots.
KAT and JB just got a team to the ECF and took two games off the Pacers superteam while being coached by an ignoramus, perhaps there’s a way to get something more out of that combo
Leon acquired KAT because he’s family. And then he gave up the assets he thought he had to give up to reel him in.
We all have the predicate assumption that this is like the vast majority of other NA sports franchises, where the front office evaluates the entire universe of available talent, ranks them against each other in terms of sensible criteria, and then acts accordingly. (*)
But that is not what is going on with Leon. Leon’s universe is his basketball “family” and the occasional WWW rant/rave about some guy because he has a connection to Kentucky.
Leon doesn’t have a big board, wherein Karl-Anthony Towns ranks 21st via purely basketball criteria and therefore he’s more appealing as an acquisition candidate than the players who rank 24th, 32nd, and 45th. (**) Which is also in part why he punted and incinerated all those draft picks. And very likely why he drafted Obi Toppin.
(*) Sometimes in that universe mistakes are made, criteria are misapplied, evaluating eyes aren’t very good at evaluating, etc. — and that separates good front offices from less good ones — but the underlying predicate is still the same.
(**) Again, teams that do have big boards, i.e., practically every other team in NA sports, can get the rankings wrong, sometimes badly. Brock Aller and Gerston Rosas may in fact have such a big board. But if they do, it’s an entirely academic exercise. Leon is going after family to implement an underlying philosophy imposed by James Dolan — the same philosophy James Dolan has had since at least the time he blew his stack at the image of Donnie Walsh recruiting LBJ from a wheelchair.
“I put the OG trade on the list of his excellent moves.”
Hmmm…I seem to recall you insisting that it was a significant overpay, and comparing it to the price Indy paid for Siakam as a point of reference. My take at the time was it was a market-value deal, which was justifiable given the current and historical issues between Toronto and ther Knicks. But if I’m wrong on that recollection, I apologize.
“We can agree to disagree about the value in KAT, though. I think Randle, Donte, and the 17th pick is approximate value. I also think KAT is a lot less desirable on the trade market that most think. His contract is bad.”
I don’ think his contract is as bad as it seems, given how much max salaries have escalated. I also think ther Randle’s contract situation alone significantly depressed his market value and injury situation (I think he was underrated and undervalued, but we’re talking market consensus. I mean, what would Randle have brought back on the open market? A single unprotected first and salary filler, if that? So if you or anyone else believes that KAT’s market value was: an unprotected pick, a lottery protected pick, and a solid 6th-7th man on a good contract, that sort of speaks to the vast degree that KAT is overrated, and why it is foolish not to try to cash him out to some team who sees all that magical hidden value some posters here see in him, i.e. those who think he’s a coach away from being unlocked into his true superstardom. And it’s actually a plus that he’s signed for a few more years, the buyer doesn’t have to worry about immediately extending him.
I also think that KAT will retain significant value due to his sheer size and skill, much like KP has. In that sense, the goal should be to sell as high as possible on him. I don’t think Minny shopped him for long enough…not as egregiously as the Doncic blunder, but definitely to a degree. And I think Leon topped out on what he could have gotten for Randle.
I don’t remember a time when I was this anxious to see the team’s next move. And it’s weird because it’s coach related and not player related. Part of me believes Thibs could have won with this roster if he had one last crack at it, but I also really wanna see a smart coaching hire. I would love for it to mirror the Cowboys’ hiring of Brian Schottenheimer in the sense that I was all “WHAT THE FUCK?!” until Schotty assembled his staff. Now I’m excited about the hire. I have no doubt the Cowboys will get good coaching, and I would love for the Knicks to have the same. Question is- who’s the under the radar, smart hire? Is it Johnnie Bryant? Chris Quinn? Sam Cassell? Stephen A Smith?(OHHHHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAA!) Last one was a joke, obviously lol. I need Leon to hurry up and figure it out so I can enjoy my 1st place Mets and the start of football season until the NBA season starts. Oh..and the WNBA season too. Delle Donne has retired, and I thought I’d have no one to watch- but the youngins on the Mystics and the new parity in the league are really fun to watch. Disappointed in Jewell Loyd though. I thought she’d kill it playing with Aja Wilson.
Leon was getting OG come hook or come crook. He didn’t even wait until the deadline to see how the market developed. And then Indy got Siakam, a way better player, for roughly the amount Leon paid.
MSG’s deep connections to CAA are well-known, widely-reported, and predate Leon Rose. (*) James Dolan wouldn’t even sign Mike Woodson’s contract extension until Mike Woodson changed agencies to CAA. So it’s small surprise that Leon salivated over his kid’s client, and shipped out two non-CAA young assets, one of whom he had already low-balled in the negotiation of his second contract.
It’s simply par for the course here. Nothing has changed, in that regard — although again, Leon has put together a good basketball team via his family. Complaining about this is at this point like complaining about gravity.
(*) And are almost certainly why Leon Rose was hired in the first place.
“KAT and JB just got a team to the ECF and took two games off the Pacers superteam while being coached by an ignoramus, perhaps there’s a way to get something more out of that combo”
Sure. It’s also possible that Thibs is an excellent coach who maxed out this team, that they only got to the ECF due to events that are far less likely to occur in subsequent years, and that the new coach will be no more successful in squeezing more juice out of those two guys specifically and this roster generally than the guys who took over for Thibs the last two times he was fired.
“Leon was getting OG come hook or come crook. He didn’t even wait until the deadline to see how the market developed. And then Indy got Siakam, a way better player, for roughly the amount Leon paid.”
But then he got KAT for arguably less than he paid for OG and since KAT is “indisputably better” than Siakam, it all worked out! Thanks, E!
Today is a puzzling day to be a Knicks fan. There are lots of rumors of potential coaches, including Jason Kidd rumors that would require a trade. I’m not sure what Dallas would want from us. There are lots of rumors about potential big trades, but I’m not sure how much trade value KAT has or if Giannis would particularly agitate to go to the Knicks (if (HUGE IF) he asks to be traded from Milwaukee).
Leon’s weird/bad approach to the draft and draft picks in general is going to come back to haunt us one day. Probably one day sooner than we think. Not next year, and maybe not the year after, but soon.
It’s been haunting me for the last two years, either of which could have ended with titles if Leon hadn’t squandered so many choice picks.
The “philosophy” of using draft picks as currency for “superstars” relieves Leon of the need to actually work and prepare for drafts. Win-win for everyone.
Leon acquired KAT because he’s family. And then he gave up the assets he thought he had to give up to reel him in.
Thibs was family, Obi was family, Brunson was family, OG was family, KAT was family. We are fortunate Leon has a talented family but this is a bit like the Fast & the Furious.
What I don’t get about the Giannis rumors is what can the Knicks even offer for Giannis that other teams can’t beat? What would a “tsunami-sized” offer for Giannis be?
Assuming the Bucks even want to blow things up totally and do a draft type rebuild over 5+ years.
Instead of thinking about players. I’d frame the question another way.
What could the Knicks get back if they traded OG and/or Bridges as a package or separately and all they wanted back was short contracts and picks. That’s how much value we’d have to trade in pick form.
We’d have those picks, the Wizard’s pick, some swaps and 2nd rounders.
I don’t understand all the trade rules, but 3 team trades are not out of the question.
I’m far from advocating that because I think Giannis requires a stretch C. That means Towns would probably stay, but losing OG and Bridges leaves the defense still a mess.
I don’t remember a time when I was this anxious to see the team’s next move.
I’m telling you it’s going to be Durant.
The Suns are already out on Durant and have reportedly promised to trade him. There’s not going to be a long line of suitors.
OG, Mitch, and Kolek works perfectly and is actually a pretty good return for the Suns and OG and Mitch pair very well with Booker.
Does anyone think Leon would turn that down?
I know there’s no objective way to measure this, but I still believe Francisco Lindor is the greatest leader in professional baseball today—and in all of New York sports.
the irony of the Melo tsumami offer… …was that you paid an enormous sum for a player who, like KAT, was deeply flawed and overpaid
Though factually correct, I don’t think that fits the definition of situational irony.
You really can’t have Thibs as your coach if the plan is Brunson, KAT, and Durant.
If that’s the plan, I’m becoming a Pacer fan.
I don’t hate the Durant idea (don’t like it), but if I am making a trade for him, I’m using Bridges. I’m not giving up the better wing defender (OG) and making the defense worse. I don’t totally hate giving up Bridges and upgrading the offense.
Leon sacrificed flexibility and a longer window for a better shot at a win-now kind of scenario. And that largely paid off— we just made the conference finals and had our best season in 25 years. Unfortunately we didn’t win a title, now the team needs some repairs, and all the flexibility is gone.
Given our current roster and salary situation it is going to be very difficult to make moves to improve this team that aren’t lateral moves. We don’t have that promising young player on a rookie scale contract that you can slot into the starting lineup while we trade his more expensive veteran equivalent to fill other holes.
I don’t hate the Durant idea (don’t like it), but if I am making a trade for him, I’m using Bridges. I’m not giving up the better wing defender (OG) and making the defense worse. I don’t totally hate giving up Bridges and upgrading the offense.
The math doesn’t work bc the Suns are over the 2nd apron. Has to be OG and Mitch.
EDIT: a combination of Bridges, Hart, and Deuce gets close to the possibility of being able to fill in with Aller magic.
OG Anunoby is the youngest player in this core group. Next year will be his age 28 season. Miles McBride is the only playable guy on the roster under 25, and he’ll be 25 next year. All these guys are going to start hitting their decline phases at the same time. We owe five future unprotected firsts, and probably three of those are going to be due as this team starts declining.
I think he sort of understands that…maybe?
That was the reason I was strongly in favor of drafting young players last year compared to previous years. And he did. As Hart and others start aging we need for Kolek, Hukporti, Dadiet and McCullar to develop into solid rotation players (hopefully at least 1 worthy of starting). We also have some 1st rounders we can’t trade that we can use in coming years to add some other young talent.
Leon sacrificed flexibility and a longer window for a better shot at a win-now kind of scenario. And that largely paid off— we just made the conference finals and had our best season in 25 years. Unfortunately we didn’t win a title, now the team needs some repairs, and all the flexibility is gone.
Given our current roster and salary situation it is going to be very difficult to make moves to improve this team that aren’t lateral moves. We don’t have that promising young player on a rookie scale contract that you can slot into the starting lineup while we trade his more expensive veteran equivalent to fill other holes.
Totally fair take, and it captures the core of where the Knicks are right now. Leon went all-in on a tight window, and to his credit, it got us deeper than we’ve been in decades. But yeah, the price of that success is the kind of roster rigidity we’re now facing.
The biggest issue is exactly what you said—no cheap, high-upside guy ready to step into a bigger role. Deuce, maybe, but he’s more of a bench piece. So any upgrades require moving real assets or messing with the core. Unless there’s a creative trade out there that shakes loose an undervalued starter or star, we’re probably looking at small tweaks rather than big leaps.
And that’s all the more reason why this team needs a coach who’s better suited to maximize the talent on hand than Thibs was. With flexibility gone and limited avenues for roster upgrades, the margin for error is razor thin—and that makes coaching matter even more.
The math doesn’t work bc the Suns are over the 2nd apron. Has to be OG, Mitch, and a rookie/vet min. No substitutions allowed.
I know the Bridges math doesn’t work, but no other combinations with him can possibly work?
I’d just want him to be the major piece instead of OG
The one thing we are very good at is capology and fooling around with salaries to accomplish what we want.
Though factually correct, I don’t think that fits the definition of situational irony
classic weekend meta-donnie, calling out zman’s alanisirony following his own jagged little pill and thus achieving the first top shelf irony of the thread
KAT and JB just got a team to the ECF and took two games off the Pacers superteam while being coached by an ignoramus, perhaps there’s a way to get something more out of that combo
🙂
You are making a good point.
When the Lakers couldn’t do much to improve the players, they changed the coach. They’ve done this two times now. We are kind of in the same boat. Of course we are exploring trades. We always do. But we could easily find there’s not much we can do, trade wise. I’m just hoping the new coach is good enough we don’t go downhill.
I know there’s no objective way to measure this, but I still believe Francisco Lindor is the greatest leader in professional baseball today—and in all of New York sports.
No one thinks Lindor isn’t a terrific player, but the greatest leader in baseball? Exactly where has he led the Mets in 4.4 seasons?
No one thinks Lindor isn’t a terrific player, but the greatest leader in baseball? Exactly where has he led the Mets in 4.4 seasons?
You’re asking where Lindor has led the Mets like he’s the GM, owner, and entire pitching staff rolled into one.
But to answer your question, he’s led them to two postseason appearances (about to be three) in that span.
OG is arguably our 2nd best player, and could take another step forward next year with better ball handling. I wouldn’t trade him for Durant, only for Giannis.
This team was a historic shooting streak by a secondary player, from being up 1:0 in the ECF and maybe playing OKC now. It’s flawed, and Thibs has worn out his welcome, but we shouldn’t be in panic mode.
I know the Bridges math doesn’t work, but no other combinations with him can possibly work?
not easy but not impossible. could imagine (cap only point here) for example, hart and mikal plus $10.3mm more in fake newly signed salary going to a third team via the same trick we used in the kat deal. but do need to send $55mm one way or another and would need a third team for any deal with the suns.
But to answer your question, he’s led them to two postseason appearances (about to be three) in that span.
And how exactly does that stack up with other players in all professional sports? Your statement is a bit hyperbolic, no? Again a wonderful player.
Kind of agree with Hubert because I think Giannis will stay put.
I hope Leon learned his lesson after the Kemba trade, but I think KD will feel too good for him to pass up.
I guess we round the lineup out with Mitch and (gulp) Mikal for defense and go small ball with KAT at center and Hart at SF.
That could get ugly, but maybe the right coach could make it work… for a year or two at most.
On the bright side, KD could mentor French futurestar Dadiet?
Am I the only one who would love to see KAT in SF playing in an offense next to Curry with Draymond to backstop his weak defense and directing him on the floor with Jimmy?
The different tone of daily KB threads this week reminds me of the five stages of grief. Acceptance looming now.
And how exactly does that stack up with other players in all professional sports? Your statement is a bit hyperbolic, no? Again a wonderful player.
I said baseball and NYC sports, and I stand by that. Outside of Lindor, who are we really talking about? Judge? Great player, but a postseason ghost.
Freddie Freeman absolutely deserves praise—he’s come up big in October and helped two teams win titles—but he doesn’t carry anywhere near the same day-to-day load Lindor does, especially when you factor how stacked that Dodgers lineup is.
And again, this is obviously subjective—I acknowledged that. But for me, so much of the Mets’ identity and success begins and ends with Lindor. He’s the best player at the premium defensive position in the sport, and the tone-setter for everything that team does.
Grief is a lifestyle choice for Knick fans.
ha, that was nice Rough 😊
Not to repeat what has already been said
I must get bored easy…I keep hoping and praying ess-dog gives us some more day in the life dialogue (not sure why, but just enjoy that kind of creativity), or steveoh and jk share some more stories (more stories please 😊)…
talking about a bunch of ifs and maybes along with some shoulda, woulda, coulda’s – doesn’t seem to spark it up for me much…
Even if the nuts and bolts of a Durant trade could be worked out, does he even want to come here for his final bow?
In re cross-era athletic comparisons and musings and what-ifs, Secretariat’s Belmont win 52 years ago is still to this day the fastest 1.5 miles ever run by a horse on dirt.
Horses were already max-trained and groomed for athletic purpose by 1973, humans weren’t. (*) That’s the only difference. Groom and train Babe Ruth as a 2001 birth cohort and he’s “Babe Ruth” in 2025.
(*) For a variety of reasons which are beyond the current scope.
We have a very good team.
I don’t think Thibs maximized the Brunson/KAT combo on offense.
I don’t think either Brunson’s ball dominance or the frequent use of isolation is the best way to maximize the overall offense.
Maybe KAT and Mitch will be a little better in lineups together if given a chance to play together over the course of a full season.
Maybe a transaction or new coach will move Hart to the bench where his Swiss Army Knife skills will be more useful and we’ll get better spacing and possibly even POA defense in the starting lineup.
I don’t want to panic too much about trades. IMHO moving on from Thibs was the correct thing to do. However, it can backfire if they bring in the wrong replacement. They have to get the new coach right!
In re cross-era athletic comparisons and musings and what-ifs, Secretariat’s Belmont win 52 years ago is still to this day the fastest 1.5 miles ever run by a horse on dirt.
Today’s Belmont is a very good race. Unfortunately, the track is very sloppy and it’s still raining. That could have an impact on the result, though the 3 main contenders ran on slop in the Kentucky Derby and handled it well enough to not be sure it was the reason for losing or winning.
Honestly, I wouldn’t mind a KD trade if it moves KAT and includes Richards. I’d even sacrifice Kolek & Dadiet to make that move if need be. I would also do the trade mentioned here in a heartbeat if Atlanta’s game, or some other move for KAT or Bridges that adds another C and 1 or 2 other rotation pieces.
Poindexter, I’m not going to download the app to read the rest. What’s the crazy trade idea suggested there?
and would need a third team for any deal with the suns.
Why is that? I’m still trying to figure out the apron rules. I know the Suns can’t aggregate players themselves but I thought they were allowed to take more than 1 player back.
Poindexter, I’m not going to download the app to read the rest. What’s the crazy trade idea suggested there?
Oops..forgot I was reading it from the app. It was:
ATL- Ayo Dosunmo
CHI- KAT, Mann, Bufkin, Dadiet, and ATL’s ’27 2nd
NY- Vucevic, Huerter, Ball, CHI ’26 1st
That’s an easy yes for me, and the cherry on top is Vuc was a better defender at the 5 spot this season
How has Ball looked since finally returning?
Why is that? I’m still trying to figure out the apron rules. I know the Suns can’t aggregate players themselves but I thought they were allowed to take more than 1 player back.
the suns can take back more than one player but teams above the first apron can only take in up to 100% (used to be 125%) of the salary they send so it’s nearly impossible to match up with two apron teams alone.
Mine was like the black fly in the wine, his was straight up rain on a wedding day.
The player I would look for is a strong defensive 4 who can rebound, and I’d trade Bridges for him even if I have to sacrifice some offense.
Sorry, geo, today’s discussion is about how much my everything hurts and why the dogs are shitting and barfing all over the house. Definitely not up to Knicks2025’s standards.
How has Ball looked since finally returning?
He kinda looks like a player who’s finally healthy, but still trying to get his legs under him. He should be much better this coming season. He still makes open shots, moves the ball well,finds open guys easy, and plays passing lanes very well. If we had Ball at SG, and kept Bridges and OG, our perimeter defense would be crazy because he’s still a decent POA defender- even while recovering
PJ, the fact that you like that trade makes me question my sanity
Went to see King Gizard and the Lizard wizard 2 days ago. If you like alternative neopsychedelia and they’re playing near you don’t miss em
Getting ready for I Am Morbid in a few days!
After The Knicks it’s the Concerts period!
PJ, the fact that you like that trade makes me question my sanity
To be fair, the only reason I like that trade is because it adds 3 legit rotation pieces who can start on other teams, and it adds to the defense. Would be a great trade if Thibs was still coach lol
the suns can take back more than one player but teams above the first apron can only take in up to 100% (used to be 125%) of the salary they send so it’s nearly impossible to match up with two apron teams alone.
And it has to be precise to the dollar? I thought there would be some leeway. The trade I came up with above involves an excess of just $6,800 (.0001242%).
Lindor is a perfectly fine team leader, likable guy, accountable, plays the game with joy, usually says the right things, seems like the unofficial captain of the team.
The leadership really comes from the top though. Mendoza has been everything I could have hoped for in a manager– a serious guy and strong tactical manager with a feel for the modern game and analytics who puts his players in a position to succeed and holds them accountable. Runs a tight clubhouse, didn’t go into panic mode when the team came out of the gate struggling last year. Keeps the Mets relatively controversy-free. Tends to play the guys who earn playing time, but doesn’t bury anybody either. And Hefner is as good a pitching coach as there is in the game.
The Mets need to start getting some hits with RISP. If they figure out that part of the equation, they’ll run away with the division. Half of the Phillies lineup looks like garbage, and they’re a brutal defensive team.
Having Many Trade Options is much better than not having them.
Going deep into the playoffs makes that possible cause everyone loves winning players and envisions that “in my team he’ll be different and ideal”.
never once in my life have i thought that in my team someone would be different and ideal
As for Giannis i don’t see anything new than the news from Usa about him. Tsunami offer, Sams Charania and the already known rumours
The idea of KAT for Vooch and Ball made me throw up in my mouth a little.
I do think there’s middle of the road teams like CHI that would pay handsomely for KAT despite his gut punch of a contract. Odd to me how much this board under values our own guys. KAT is a top 15 guy. He’s been to the conference finals two years in a row. He’s a sensational talent in his prime, and he will make you lose your mind. What’s not to like?
I think the Bridges deal was a really bad overpay but I’m not sure it was a truly fatal error. Trading value for a 38 year old Durant who doesn’t guarantee a damn thing? That would be bad.
#never once in my life have i thought that in my team someone would be different and ideal#
Different than his previous flawed self and Ideal for a Contending team!
The story of my optimist fan life!
If the Freak ain’t coming here KD can be a fine backup plan but they will both definitely be graded according to the pieces we’re going to send out.
This off-season has Many Trade Options but demands Chess Moves to be successful.
Leon should undust his stratego this summer and start practicing before pulling the trigger.
We probably have one Move.
Many Options but One Crucial Move to be “The Men” Next Season.
My pre-thibs sacking trade idea for Kat and Mikal was to Utah for Markennen, sexton and Kessler. Would have given Thibs his two trad bigs and given us Pf and Guard depth/quality. No idea if they would have done it. Not sure I’d do it now as I want to see what our lineup can be with a different coach…
And it has to be precise to the dollar? I thought there would be some leeway. The trade I came up with above involves an excess of just $6,800 (.0001242%).
yeah as written the cba says 100 percent, not around 100 percent. if the tiny shortfall was bc nyk was sending too little, it would be easy to fix with one minimum contract guaranteed at only $6800. but your trade has the excess on the incoming suns side and that seems unfixable bc they are second apron so can’t aggregate out period. if they swapped huk for kolek in that deal then they could clean it up as above. either way if they wanted to make a deal with mitch and og it would be all but academic to include a third team to make it work, but it’s a bit harder with formulations that induce a bigger salary gap like some hypothetical mikal deals.
Lindor is a perfectly fine team leader, likable guy, accountable, plays the game with joy, usually says the right things, seems like the unofficial captain of the team.
And just happens to be the best at a premium position and on a Hall of Fame trajectory.
The leadership really comes from the top though.
Lindor was that guy before Mendoza. Showalter valued him immensely for exactly that reason.
The Mets need to start getting some hits with RISP. If they figure out that part of the equation, they’ll run away with the division. Half of the Phillies lineup looks like garbage, and they’re a brutal defensive team.
The issue is that the lineup from 5 through 9 is flat right now. If you give Marte credit, then it’s really 6 through 9. Vientos has underwhelmed, and the injury hasn’t helped. Alvarez needs to step it up—otherwise we’re leaning too hard on Torrens. Baty will be streaky, which is expected, but the bigger questions are whether Acuña can consistently square up the ball and whether Mauricio’s “liberal” pitch recognition will translate at the Major League level.
Alvarez has a broken hamate bone and those take a long time to properly heal. He might not get his bat really going this season at all.
Fortunately this iteration of the Mets is smart, and they won’t give up on him. He’s still only 23, a baby for a catcher.
ugh, sorry to hear that ess-dog…hope your spirits are alright…for some reason when the pooch gets sick i kinda get sad, which doesn’t otherwise really happen too often…
i think though it’s ’cause i feel guilty when things go wrong with her cuz i did something wrong, which unfortunately is true to that point too often…
hope you all are feeling better and out and about soon again…
jiminy…watching media day for the finals, just listened to pascal and now hali…
when the heck did these young athletes get so aware and thoughtful, profound at moments…
luv the way shai listens, thinks about it, and then speaks…60 plus and i can barely manage it…
yeah got what whatever it is you were fittin’ to say, so let’s just move forward now with me talking again
Fortunately this iteration of the Mets is smart, and they won’t give up on him. He’s still only 23, a baby for a catcher.
Yeah, I’m all for giving Alvarez time. For perspective, he’s around the same age as Baty, Acuña, and Mauricio—except he plays a position where players typically take longer to figure things out. But there’s a legitimate question about whether his approach at the plate will allow him to be consistently productive.
OG, Mitch, and Kolek works perfectly and is actually a pretty good return for the Suns and OG and Mitch pair very well with Booker.
Does anyone think Leon would turn that down?
Breaks my heart. I’m sure I’m getting the ages wrong, but KD is about 37 years old. Mitch and OG are each about a decade younger. We’d have no runway.
I think the Dallas Mavericks front office has done more to improve the state of our franchise than even our own front office.
1. The KP trade
2. Letting Brunson walk
3. Giving us our Casey Smith-led training staff.
4. Now this.
I think the most likely Durant trade, to the extent that any are likely, is just KAT plus a rookie (such as Dadiet) for KD. The Suns get to pivot without going full rebuild and get a very good player on a long-term deal, plus a guy to dream on. We get a better fit and KD on an expiring which gives us lots of flexibility in the following two years while staying competitive this coming season.
Starting lineup is:
JB
Mikal
OG
KD
Mitch
Works per the FanSpo trade machine, which hasn’t wronged me yet.
Would I do it? I don’t know–how is KD on defense these days? He was really good on that end on Golden State, but it’s been a while. But the top end version of that starting 5 is probably better than the top-end version of a starting lineup with KAT at the 4, and definitely better than the top-end version of a starting lineup with KAT at the 5. We’d have to find a C on a vet min or hope that Huk is ready to be a backup.
I think we’d still be sending value in the trade–maybe we could grab Dunn in the deal? KAT surely can’t be equivalent value to Durant to a team that can’t tank like Phoenix, since he’s locked down long-term and in his prime. From the other side, the argument would be that freeing up our cap is payment enough. I guess I would pull the trigger on the deal as listed above, since flexibility is more important than ever.
we need to continue to play mitch less than regular starter minutes if we want to have him at all nick richards although not awesome is still a center whereas dunn is not i could even be pretty happy if we poached plumlee or bol bol much more happy if we plucked plumlee maybe even over richards
This is the last year of Durant’s contract, so I’m not sure what the plan would be once that expires. The whole thing just seems like a rather bad idea.
KAT is way too much to give up for Durant.
which is why we need more from then like a plumlee and or maybe an ighodaro i am not saying i am in favor of any of this i am saying that if we did it we could not expect mitch to play 36 minutes per game in the absence of kat and we would need a center ahead of or at least on par with huk to make up for it
They’re not allowed to aggregate players in a trade.
Works per the FanSpo trade machine, which hasn’t wronged me yet.
it’s wrong. it hasn’t quite met the task of the new cba when it comes to the aprons. but again if we wanted to do that deal it’s close enough that there’s no doubt we could make it happen.
oh yeah on no aggregation hard no on kat for kd straight up we can do better unless it could be a three way trade somehow but i do not want us to work that hard to get kd
KAT for Durant is way too much.
My brother in law, who is a Cubs fan, asked me today what the Mets need going forward. He said the Cubs need a good starting pitcher or two and the Mets may have a surplus very soon.
I told him we need an all-round CF, so want PCA. We both laughed.
Spotrac has a trade machine. If anyone has the full CBA, it’s them. They might still be working out some kinks though.
Allen Iverson turns 50 today. Always the controversial player in the on-paper vs in-reality debates.
Question to all of you wholly objective, thoroughly non-biased, judicially impartial fans out there:
Who do you rank higher on the all-time great list? Iverson or Ewing?
Iverson played in an era that was well suited to his talents. Ewing probably would have been a really valuable stretch 5 in the modern game.
In the actual eras they did play in… maybe that’s a push
Allen Iverson turns 50 today.
Which reminds me, as I was scouring the internet on Thursday searching diligently for some ex-Thunder, current-Pacers fans to share the excitement with, blinded by unseasonal interest in NBA basketball, I totally forgot your birthday. We’ve gone our separate ways over the last few weeks, but I still love you, man. Happy belated birthday, Big Blue Al. May you have more LJ 4 point plays in your future.
Everyone struggles with the “apron” because before the NBA started redefining the English language, it has never been used the way they do. It’s a made up meaning for a confusing concept.
Durant is on his victory lap, I don’t want any part of him.
Kidd is a coach that should stay far away from us.
It would be great if our offense evolved from players pretending to be Al Harrington
Also King Gizzard are based about 15mins from me (Brunswick) and they are an amazing band. Every album different but still awesome.
Thanks Donnie, yeah my birthday is a very famous day in Knicks history at the expense of the Pacers. You’re presence here will always be welcome no matter my frustration at the Pacers success.
#Also King Gizzard are based about 15mins from me (Brunswick) and they are an amazing band. Every album different but still awesome.#
Went almost unaware (except a few youtube views on a few tracks just to check what they play) and felt that they might Not be my cup of tea after the 2 first tracks they played but …. BANG!
In the third one they started Jamming endlessly with High Energy Psychedelia and hooked me pretty well!
The plumes of smoke i inhaled throughout the set from the never ending joints around me may helped a bit too!
What was clear was Thibodeau’s firing being spearheaded by Knicks owner James Dolan, sources told Yahoo Sports. Dolan and team president Leon Rose held exit meetings with key Knicks players and the complaints were clear.
Dolan, whom sources said was never a huge Thibodeau fan through the years, asked the questions in the meeting while Rose took a secondary role.
A couple of players felt like Thibodeau played the starters too many minutes and felt he had an inability to adjust, sources said, and another player said he didn’t feel like he could play for Thibodeau if the coach returned next season.
My brother in law, who is a Cubs fan, asked me today what the Mets need going forward. He said the Cubs need a good starting pitcher or two and the Mets may have a surplus very soon.
I told him we need an all-round CF, so want PCA. We both laughed.
Sigh.
What was clear was Thibodeau’s firing being spearheaded by Knicks owner James Dolan, sources told Yahoo Sports. Dolan and team president Leon Rose held exit meetings with key Knicks players and the complaints were clear.
Dolan, whom sources said was never a huge Thibodeau fan through the years, asked the questions in the meeting while Rose took a secondary role.
A couple of players felt like Thibodeau played the starters too many minutes and felt he had an inability to adjust, sources said, and another player said he didn’t feel like he could play for Thibodeau if the coach returned next season
This makes it pretty clear that Thibs didn’t just get fired — he lost the locker room. Dolan leading the exit interviews while Leon Rose took a backseat tells you everything: he wanted to hear it straight from the players. And what he heard was blunt — too many minutes, no real adjustments, and in at least one case, a player flat-out saying he couldn’t play for Thibs if he stayed. Once that kind of statement is made, it’s done. Rose didn’t need to push back because the message was coming directly from the players themselves.
The real Minutes Police were the guys playing all the minutes
JK, what is your handle over at Fangraphs? Baseball opinions on points
I am taking Ewing all day long…
I’m a very big YES on Lonzo Ball if we could make that happen in a reasonable way. I was a big fan before he got hurt and I’d gamble on him now.
It sounds like Thibs lost a lot of the locker room, which I’m actually a little surprised by as it relates to anyone but Bridges. Definitely seems like it was untenable to keep him on unless we wanted to trade a bunch of guys to keep Thibs, which strikes me as a bad idea. It also helps explain why they seem to be targeting guys known as “players coaches,” for better or worse.
I hope the Mavs don’t bend the knee and continue to reject draft compensation from us for their totally excellent coach.
With the news that Zach Edey will be out for the start of next season after ankle surgery, I would see if the Knicks could turn Mitchell Robinson, Deuce McBride & Josh Hart into Desmond Bane. Bane is exactly the third 3&D wing with size to slot between Brunson & KAT.
Memphis would be betting on a Mitch & Edey center tandem to anchor their defense in the playoffs.
That article doesn’t pass the smell test. His “sources” sound like Mad Dog’s radio rant.
For career value, I would take Ewing over Iverson and I don’t think it is close. Iverson has a higher peak (2001), but that was the only season when an Iverson team made a deep playoff run. Ewing (139 playoff games) had nearly double the number of playoff games as Iverson (71). After his first few seasons, Iverson was a defensive liability, while Ewing was a defensive star.
AI was known for being a cultural icon…Patrick Ewing was known for being – thrifty…
on the court though, pat all day every day…
JK, I hat is your handle over at Fangraphs. Baseball opinions on points
My Fangraphs handle is shootybabbitt (lol) but I rarely post there
It’s a great site. Completely changed how I experience baseball for the better.
I mean, those players aren’t wrong. Thibs was way too rigid, which is why teams always got the jump on up at the beginnings of third quarters. And he never really adjusted until after seeing 2-3 weeks of data, much less in a game.
He did improve a little in the playoffs but not enough to keep up with the Pacers.
I guess my ideal coach would be a former player with some years working as an offensive assistant on a staff… maybe it’s Jerry Stackhouse’s time?
Most of all I want a coach that will take an evidence-based approach to maximize this roster. An open mind that balances creativity with pragmatism. Age, background, those are secondary.
122 replies on “Knicks Morning News (2025.06.07)”
KFNINJ, i think that is the superpower of this Pacers team, they’re great and every team thinks they’re better than them and they should win… the Knicks fell for it, and it’s very hard to overcome that because you put a lot of unfair pressure on your shoulders by thinking you’re better than them when you’re not. If the Knicks entered the ECF thinking it was a close battle and every play would count, i think we could’ve prevailed. Funny enough, not even in the Finals they’re getting the respect they deserve. Well, if OKC is still thinking they’re better and the Pacers “steal” game 2 like they did to us, it’ll be game over.
What I don’t get about the Giannis rumors is what can the Knicks even offer for Giannis that other teams can’t beat? What would a “tsunami-sized” offer for Giannis be?
Think tsunami, Brian. Use your imagination. Pretend you’re Naomi Watts.
Or, you know, think Melo.
I hope we all enjoyed the last two years… It was fun (kinda).
I can’t imagine it’s anything we’d be happy with.
They’ve already traded their first round picks, though, right?
What I don’t get about the Giannis rumors is what can the Knicks even offer for Giannis that other teams can’t beat? What would a “tsunami-sized” offer for Giannis be?
there is none. but woelfel is bucks-sourced and putting a prom dress on rumors probably makes sense for them. unless of course giannis was planning to demand a trade to nyk. then it only makes sense for his agents.
We can only get Giannis if he wants to come here and they decide to him a solid… This does get the bidding war going if they really are going to trade him… If we had canned Thibs a year earlier, maybe we could have grabbed Atkinson… I still can’t believe we traded Obi for 2 second round picks… smh
If Leon is eventually fired, the first question for potential replacements should be “Who would you prefer to have in your starting lineup as your 1A-2 option: KAT or Siakam?”
Any candidate who prefers KAT should immediately be shown the door.
Never say never, but the chances of Giannis being traded here in a way that makes sense for Milwaukee are extremely remote…and that’s including possibilities that don’t make sense for us.
Again, that’s the tragedy of the Bridges trade. All of those beautiful picks squandered for a player of the caliber you could have picked up at less than half the cost…you virtually slammed the door on future transactions of this nature during the Brunson window.
wait what, no basketball today…oh man 😞
this nba season is coming to a rapid end…
Since we’re doing a Leon retrospective, consider this:
– he had one excellent run of player transacations: Brunson, Hartenstein, Hart, Donte, OG.
– everything he did before and after would fit seamlessly on the resume of Isiah Thomas, Phil Jackson, or Steve Mills.
There’s no denying how good those moves were. By making them Leon ushered in the best era in modern Knicks history.
But if you take a step back and examine his record it paints a pretty clear picture. He’s the GM equivalent of when Trey Burke had a great year for us by hitting an unsustainable amount of long twos.
To Z-Man’s point, the irony of the Melo tsumami offer was that Chris Paul became available six months later and went for a smaller package. D’Antoni needed a PG, not a duplicative forward, but the cupboard was empty and, well, here we are.
Not to repeat what has already been said but if we’ve fired Thibs bc we think he lost the locker room and didn’t utilize the current roster to its best abilities, it doesn’t really make sense to blow up the roster. Get a new coach, shore up the bench and see what happens. Even if you eventually want to move on from KAT, Mikal, etc…it makes sense to let them play under a new coach and system and possibly up their trade value. Giannis only makes sense if there’s a trade that doesn’t force us to deplete the already thin roster, which seems impossible.
“– everything he did before and after would fit seamlessly on the resume of Isiah Thomas, Phil Jackson, or Steve Mills.”
Not true. For all my misgivings about KAT, more value came in than went out. We will continue to agree to disagree on the OG trade, I believe that was a net win for the Knicks.
OTOH, I agree with those who believe that iHart could have been retained on a slightly more expensive deal that involved better Bird rights, and that Aller has gotten too cute with the salary cap machinations, especially around the draft. And of course there was drafting Obi over Hali. But by and large, everything was recoverable until the Bridges deal.
I put the OG trade on the list of his excellent moves. We can quibble about the extension but the trade was great.
We can agree to disagree about the value in KAT, though. I think Randle, Donte, and the 17th pick is approximate value. I also think KAT is a lot less desirable on the trade market that most think. His contract is bad.
“To Z-Man’s point, the irony of the Melo tsumami offer…”
…was that you paid an enormous sum for a player who, like KAT, was deeply flawed and overpaid for his overall impact on winning. At least with KAT, you got him on a bargain deal compared to what was bantered around here on KB in the years preceding the actual trade.
But a smart GM would understand that KAT’s main value is his trade value. You already have to think about building around Brunson’s defensive (and to a degree offensive) limitations. To have to do that for a second player in building a championship-level team is an extremely difficult proposition, and with the paltry assets we have left, virtually impossible without fleecing some moronic opposing GM.
KAT is the only asset we really have that has “potential” outsized value on the trade market, although I fear most GMs have gotten past the point of being deluded by his box score-based stats. I don’t think anyone out there is giving us a load of unprotected picks or a legit superstar or two potentially excellent young players for him. But hey, here’s to hoping that there are some morons out there who can be fleeced…other then Leon.
Anyway I’m pretty sure I know what Leon’s next move is. Look away now if you don’t want it spoiled.
The combined salaries of OG, Mitch, and Tyler Kolek is $54,715,409
Kevin Durant makes $54,708,609
You really can’t have Thibs as your coach if the plan is Brunson, KAT, and Durant.
Leon’s weird/bad approach to the draft and draft picks in general is going to come back to haunt us one day. Probably one day sooner than we think. Not next year, and maybe not the year after, but soon.
OG Anunoby is the youngest player in this core group. Next year will be his age 28 season. Miles McBride is the only playable guy on the roster under 25, and he’ll be 25 next year. All these guys are going to start hitting their decline phases at the same time. We owe five future unprotected firsts, and probably three of those are going to be due as this team starts declining.
I don’t see our window as very long, and once that window is closed things are going to get bleak quickly. Leon has taken us farther than I thought he ever would, but he has some serious blind spots.
KAT and JB just got a team to the ECF and took two games off the Pacers superteam while being coached by an ignoramus, perhaps there’s a way to get something more out of that combo
Leon acquired KAT because he’s family. And then he gave up the assets he thought he had to give up to reel him in.
We all have the predicate assumption that this is like the vast majority of other NA sports franchises, where the front office evaluates the entire universe of available talent, ranks them against each other in terms of sensible criteria, and then acts accordingly. (*)
But that is not what is going on with Leon. Leon’s universe is his basketball “family” and the occasional WWW rant/rave about some guy because he has a connection to Kentucky.
Leon doesn’t have a big board, wherein Karl-Anthony Towns ranks 21st via purely basketball criteria and therefore he’s more appealing as an acquisition candidate than the players who rank 24th, 32nd, and 45th. (**) Which is also in part why he punted and incinerated all those draft picks. And very likely why he drafted Obi Toppin.
(*) Sometimes in that universe mistakes are made, criteria are misapplied, evaluating eyes aren’t very good at evaluating, etc. — and that separates good front offices from less good ones — but the underlying predicate is still the same.
(**) Again, teams that do have big boards, i.e., practically every other team in NA sports, can get the rankings wrong, sometimes badly. Brock Aller and Gerston Rosas may in fact have such a big board. But if they do, it’s an entirely academic exercise. Leon is going after family to implement an underlying philosophy imposed by James Dolan — the same philosophy James Dolan has had since at least the time he blew his stack at the image of Donnie Walsh recruiting LBJ from a wheelchair.
“I put the OG trade on the list of his excellent moves.”
Hmmm…I seem to recall you insisting that it was a significant overpay, and comparing it to the price Indy paid for Siakam as a point of reference. My take at the time was it was a market-value deal, which was justifiable given the current and historical issues between Toronto and ther Knicks. But if I’m wrong on that recollection, I apologize.
“We can agree to disagree about the value in KAT, though. I think Randle, Donte, and the 17th pick is approximate value. I also think KAT is a lot less desirable on the trade market that most think. His contract is bad.”
I don’ think his contract is as bad as it seems, given how much max salaries have escalated. I also think ther Randle’s contract situation alone significantly depressed his market value and injury situation (I think he was underrated and undervalued, but we’re talking market consensus. I mean, what would Randle have brought back on the open market? A single unprotected first and salary filler, if that? So if you or anyone else believes that KAT’s market value was: an unprotected pick, a lottery protected pick, and a solid 6th-7th man on a good contract, that sort of speaks to the vast degree that KAT is overrated, and why it is foolish not to try to cash him out to some team who sees all that magical hidden value some posters here see in him, i.e. those who think he’s a coach away from being unlocked into his true superstardom. And it’s actually a plus that he’s signed for a few more years, the buyer doesn’t have to worry about immediately extending him.
I also think that KAT will retain significant value due to his sheer size and skill, much like KP has. In that sense, the goal should be to sell as high as possible on him. I don’t think Minny shopped him for long enough…not as egregiously as the Doncic blunder, but definitely to a degree. And I think Leon topped out on what he could have gotten for Randle.
I don’t remember a time when I was this anxious to see the team’s next move. And it’s weird because it’s coach related and not player related. Part of me believes Thibs could have won with this roster if he had one last crack at it, but I also really wanna see a smart coaching hire. I would love for it to mirror the Cowboys’ hiring of Brian Schottenheimer in the sense that I was all “WHAT THE FUCK?!” until Schotty assembled his staff. Now I’m excited about the hire. I have no doubt the Cowboys will get good coaching, and I would love for the Knicks to have the same. Question is- who’s the under the radar, smart hire? Is it Johnnie Bryant? Chris Quinn? Sam Cassell? Stephen A Smith?(OHHHHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAA!) Last one was a joke, obviously lol. I need Leon to hurry up and figure it out so I can enjoy my 1st place Mets and the start of football season until the NBA season starts. Oh..and the WNBA season too. Delle Donne has retired, and I thought I’d have no one to watch- but the youngins on the Mystics and the new parity in the league are really fun to watch. Disappointed in Jewell Loyd though. I thought she’d kill it playing with Aja Wilson.
Leon was getting OG come hook or come crook. He didn’t even wait until the deadline to see how the market developed. And then Indy got Siakam, a way better player, for roughly the amount Leon paid.
MSG’s deep connections to CAA are well-known, widely-reported, and predate Leon Rose. (*) James Dolan wouldn’t even sign Mike Woodson’s contract extension until Mike Woodson changed agencies to CAA. So it’s small surprise that Leon salivated over his kid’s client, and shipped out two non-CAA young assets, one of whom he had already low-balled in the negotiation of his second contract.
It’s simply par for the course here. Nothing has changed, in that regard — although again, Leon has put together a good basketball team via his family. Complaining about this is at this point like complaining about gravity.
(*) And are almost certainly why Leon Rose was hired in the first place.
“KAT and JB just got a team to the ECF and took two games off the Pacers superteam while being coached by an ignoramus, perhaps there’s a way to get something more out of that combo”
Sure. It’s also possible that Thibs is an excellent coach who maxed out this team, that they only got to the ECF due to events that are far less likely to occur in subsequent years, and that the new coach will be no more successful in squeezing more juice out of those two guys specifically and this roster generally than the guys who took over for Thibs the last two times he was fired.
“Leon was getting OG come hook or come crook. He didn’t even wait until the deadline to see how the market developed. And then Indy got Siakam, a way better player, for roughly the amount Leon paid.”
But then he got KAT for arguably less than he paid for OG and since KAT is “indisputably better” than Siakam, it all worked out! Thanks, E!
Today is a puzzling day to be a Knicks fan. There are lots of rumors of potential coaches, including Jason Kidd rumors that would require a trade. I’m not sure what Dallas would want from us. There are lots of rumors about potential big trades, but I’m not sure how much trade value KAT has or if Giannis would particularly agitate to go to the Knicks (if (HUGE IF) he asks to be traded from Milwaukee).
It’s been haunting me for the last two years, either of which could have ended with titles if Leon hadn’t squandered so many choice picks.
The “philosophy” of using draft picks as currency for “superstars” relieves Leon of the need to actually work and prepare for drafts. Win-win for everyone.
Thibs was family, Obi was family, Brunson was family, OG was family, KAT was family. We are fortunate Leon has a talented family but this is a bit like the Fast & the Furious.
Assuming the Bucks even want to blow things up totally and do a draft type rebuild over 5+ years.
Instead of thinking about players. I’d frame the question another way.
What could the Knicks get back if they traded OG and/or Bridges as a package or separately and all they wanted back was short contracts and picks. That’s how much value we’d have to trade in pick form.
We’d have those picks, the Wizard’s pick, some swaps and 2nd rounders.
I don’t understand all the trade rules, but 3 team trades are not out of the question.
I’m far from advocating that because I think Giannis requires a stretch C. That means Towns would probably stay, but losing OG and Bridges leaves the defense still a mess.
I’m telling you it’s going to be Durant.
The Suns are already out on Durant and have reportedly promised to trade him. There’s not going to be a long line of suitors.
OG, Mitch, and Kolek works perfectly and is actually a pretty good return for the Suns and OG and Mitch pair very well with Booker.
Does anyone think Leon would turn that down?
I know there’s no objective way to measure this, but I still believe Francisco Lindor is the greatest leader in professional baseball today—and in all of New York sports.
Though factually correct, I don’t think that fits the definition of situational irony.
If that’s the plan, I’m becoming a Pacer fan.
I don’t hate the Durant idea (don’t like it), but if I am making a trade for him, I’m using Bridges. I’m not giving up the better wing defender (OG) and making the defense worse. I don’t totally hate giving up Bridges and upgrading the offense.
Leon sacrificed flexibility and a longer window for a better shot at a win-now kind of scenario. And that largely paid off— we just made the conference finals and had our best season in 25 years. Unfortunately we didn’t win a title, now the team needs some repairs, and all the flexibility is gone.
Given our current roster and salary situation it is going to be very difficult to make moves to improve this team that aren’t lateral moves. We don’t have that promising young player on a rookie scale contract that you can slot into the starting lineup while we trade his more expensive veteran equivalent to fill other holes.
The math doesn’t work bc the Suns are over the 2nd apron. Has to be OG and Mitch.
EDIT: a combination of Bridges, Hart, and Deuce gets close to the possibility of being able to fill in with Aller magic.
I think he sort of understands that…maybe?
That was the reason I was strongly in favor of drafting young players last year compared to previous years. And he did. As Hart and others start aging we need for Kolek, Hukporti, Dadiet and McCullar to develop into solid rotation players (hopefully at least 1 worthy of starting). We also have some 1st rounders we can’t trade that we can use in coming years to add some other young talent.
Totally fair take, and it captures the core of where the Knicks are right now. Leon went all-in on a tight window, and to his credit, it got us deeper than we’ve been in decades. But yeah, the price of that success is the kind of roster rigidity we’re now facing.
The biggest issue is exactly what you said—no cheap, high-upside guy ready to step into a bigger role. Deuce, maybe, but he’s more of a bench piece. So any upgrades require moving real assets or messing with the core. Unless there’s a creative trade out there that shakes loose an undervalued starter or star, we’re probably looking at small tweaks rather than big leaps.
And that’s all the more reason why this team needs a coach who’s better suited to maximize the talent on hand than Thibs was. With flexibility gone and limited avenues for roster upgrades, the margin for error is razor thin—and that makes coaching matter even more.
I know the Bridges math doesn’t work, but no other combinations with him can possibly work?
I’d just want him to be the major piece instead of OG
The one thing we are very good at is capology and fooling around with salaries to accomplish what we want.
Though factually correct, I don’t think that fits the definition of situational irony
classic weekend meta-donnie, calling out zman’s alanisirony following his own jagged little pill and thus achieving the first top shelf irony of the thread
🙂
You are making a good point.
When the Lakers couldn’t do much to improve the players, they changed the coach. They’ve done this two times now. We are kind of in the same boat. Of course we are exploring trades. We always do. But we could easily find there’s not much we can do, trade wise. I’m just hoping the new coach is good enough we don’t go downhill.
No one thinks Lindor isn’t a terrific player, but the greatest leader in baseball? Exactly where has he led the Mets in 4.4 seasons?
You’re asking where Lindor has led the Mets like he’s the GM, owner, and entire pitching staff rolled into one.
But to answer your question, he’s led them to two postseason appearances (about to be three) in that span.
OG is arguably our 2nd best player, and could take another step forward next year with better ball handling. I wouldn’t trade him for Durant, only for Giannis.
This team was a historic shooting streak by a secondary player, from being up 1:0 in the ECF and maybe playing OKC now. It’s flawed, and Thibs has worn out his welcome, but we shouldn’t be in panic mode.
I know the Bridges math doesn’t work, but no other combinations with him can possibly work?
not easy but not impossible. could imagine (cap only point here) for example, hart and mikal plus $10.3mm more in fake newly signed salary going to a third team via the same trick we used in the kat deal. but do need to send $55mm one way or another and would need a third team for any deal with the suns.
And how exactly does that stack up with other players in all professional sports? Your statement is a bit hyperbolic, no? Again a wonderful player.
Kind of agree with Hubert because I think Giannis will stay put.
I hope Leon learned his lesson after the Kemba trade, but I think KD will feel too good for him to pass up.
I guess we round the lineup out with Mitch and (gulp) Mikal for defense and go small ball with KAT at center and Hart at SF.
That could get ugly, but maybe the right coach could make it work… for a year or two at most.
On the bright side, KD could mentor French futurestar Dadiet?
Am I the only one who would love to see KAT in SF playing in an offense next to Curry with Draymond to backstop his weak defense and directing him on the floor with Jimmy?
The different tone of daily KB threads this week reminds me of the five stages of grief. Acceptance looming now.
I said baseball and NYC sports, and I stand by that. Outside of Lindor, who are we really talking about? Judge? Great player, but a postseason ghost.
Freddie Freeman absolutely deserves praise—he’s come up big in October and helped two teams win titles—but he doesn’t carry anywhere near the same day-to-day load Lindor does, especially when you factor how stacked that Dodgers lineup is.
And again, this is obviously subjective—I acknowledged that. But for me, so much of the Mets’ identity and success begins and ends with Lindor. He’s the best player at the premium defensive position in the sport, and the tone-setter for everything that team does.
Grief is a lifestyle choice for Knick fans.
ha, that was nice Rough 😊
I must get bored easy…I keep hoping and praying ess-dog gives us some more day in the life dialogue (not sure why, but just enjoy that kind of creativity), or steveoh and jk share some more stories (more stories please 😊)…
talking about a bunch of ifs and maybes along with some shoulda, woulda, coulda’s – doesn’t seem to spark it up for me much…
no doubt, something will happen though…
https://twitter.com/ShaxNBA/status/1930979342911185291
Even if the nuts and bolts of a Durant trade could be worked out, does he even want to come here for his final bow?
In re cross-era athletic comparisons and musings and what-ifs, Secretariat’s Belmont win 52 years ago is still to this day the fastest 1.5 miles ever run by a horse on dirt.
Horses were already max-trained and groomed for athletic purpose by 1973, humans weren’t. (*) That’s the only difference. Groom and train Babe Ruth as a 2001 birth cohort and he’s “Babe Ruth” in 2025.
(*) For a variety of reasons which are beyond the current scope.
We have a very good team.
I don’t think Thibs maximized the Brunson/KAT combo on offense.
I don’t think either Brunson’s ball dominance or the frequent use of isolation is the best way to maximize the overall offense.
Maybe KAT and Mitch will be a little better in lineups together if given a chance to play together over the course of a full season.
Maybe a transaction or new coach will move Hart to the bench where his Swiss Army Knife skills will be more useful and we’ll get better spacing and possibly even POA defense in the starting lineup.
I don’t want to panic too much about trades. IMHO moving on from Thibs was the correct thing to do. However, it can backfire if they bring in the wrong replacement. They have to get the new coach right!
Today’s Belmont is a very good race. Unfortunately, the track is very sloppy and it’s still raining. That could have an impact on the result, though the 3 main contenders ran on slop in the Kentucky Derby and handled it well enough to not be sure it was the reason for losing or winning.
Honestly, I wouldn’t mind a KD trade if it moves KAT and includes Richards. I’d even sacrifice Kolek & Dadiet to make that move if need be. I would also do the trade mentioned here in a heartbeat if Atlanta’s game, or some other move for KAT or Bridges that adds another C and 1 or 2 other rotation pieces.
Poindexter, I’m not going to download the app to read the rest. What’s the crazy trade idea suggested there?
Why is that? I’m still trying to figure out the apron rules. I know the Suns can’t aggregate players themselves but I thought they were allowed to take more than 1 player back.
Oops..forgot I was reading it from the app. It was:
ATL- Ayo Dosunmo
CHI- KAT, Mann, Bufkin, Dadiet, and ATL’s ’27 2nd
NY- Vucevic, Huerter, Ball, CHI ’26 1st
That’s an easy yes for me, and the cherry on top is Vuc was a better defender at the 5 spot this season
How has Ball looked since finally returning?
Why is that? I’m still trying to figure out the apron rules. I know the Suns can’t aggregate players themselves but I thought they were allowed to take more than 1 player back.
the suns can take back more than one player but teams above the first apron can only take in up to 100% (used to be 125%) of the salary they send so it’s nearly impossible to match up with two apron teams alone.
Mine was like the black fly in the wine, his was straight up rain on a wedding day.
The player I would look for is a strong defensive 4 who can rebound, and I’d trade Bridges for him even if I have to sacrifice some offense.
Sorry, geo, today’s discussion is about how much my everything hurts and why the dogs are shitting and barfing all over the house. Definitely not up to Knicks2025’s standards.
He kinda looks like a player who’s finally healthy, but still trying to get his legs under him. He should be much better this coming season. He still makes open shots, moves the ball well,finds open guys easy, and plays passing lanes very well. If we had Ball at SG, and kept Bridges and OG, our perimeter defense would be crazy because he’s still a decent POA defender- even while recovering
PJ, the fact that you like that trade makes me question my sanity
Went to see King Gizard and the Lizard wizard 2 days ago. If you like alternative neopsychedelia and they’re playing near you don’t miss em
Getting ready for I Am Morbid in a few days!
After The Knicks it’s the Concerts period!
To be fair, the only reason I like that trade is because it adds 3 legit rotation pieces who can start on other teams, and it adds to the defense. Would be a great trade if Thibs was still coach lol
And it has to be precise to the dollar? I thought there would be some leeway. The trade I came up with above involves an excess of just $6,800 (.0001242%).
Lindor is a perfectly fine team leader, likable guy, accountable, plays the game with joy, usually says the right things, seems like the unofficial captain of the team.
The leadership really comes from the top though. Mendoza has been everything I could have hoped for in a manager– a serious guy and strong tactical manager with a feel for the modern game and analytics who puts his players in a position to succeed and holds them accountable. Runs a tight clubhouse, didn’t go into panic mode when the team came out of the gate struggling last year. Keeps the Mets relatively controversy-free. Tends to play the guys who earn playing time, but doesn’t bury anybody either. And Hefner is as good a pitching coach as there is in the game.
The Mets need to start getting some hits with RISP. If they figure out that part of the equation, they’ll run away with the division. Half of the Phillies lineup looks like garbage, and they’re a brutal defensive team.
Having Many Trade Options is much better than not having them.
Going deep into the playoffs makes that possible cause everyone loves winning players and envisions that “in my team he’ll be different and ideal”.
never once in my life have i thought that in my team someone would be different and ideal
As for Giannis i don’t see anything new than the news from Usa about him. Tsunami offer, Sams Charania and the already known rumours
The idea of KAT for Vooch and Ball made me throw up in my mouth a little.
I do think there’s middle of the road teams like CHI that would pay handsomely for KAT despite his gut punch of a contract. Odd to me how much this board under values our own guys. KAT is a top 15 guy. He’s been to the conference finals two years in a row. He’s a sensational talent in his prime, and he will make you lose your mind. What’s not to like?
I think the Bridges deal was a really bad overpay but I’m not sure it was a truly fatal error. Trading value for a 38 year old Durant who doesn’t guarantee a damn thing? That would be bad.
#never once in my life have i thought that in my team someone would be different and ideal#
Different than his previous flawed self and Ideal for a Contending team!
The story of my optimist fan life!
If the Freak ain’t coming here KD can be a fine backup plan but they will both definitely be graded according to the pieces we’re going to send out.
This off-season has Many Trade Options but demands Chess Moves to be successful.
Leon should undust his stratego this summer and start practicing before pulling the trigger.
We probably have one Move.
Many Options but One Crucial Move to be “The Men” Next Season.
My pre-thibs sacking trade idea for Kat and Mikal was to Utah for Markennen, sexton and Kessler. Would have given Thibs his two trad bigs and given us Pf and Guard depth/quality. No idea if they would have done it. Not sure I’d do it now as I want to see what our lineup can be with a different coach…
And it has to be precise to the dollar? I thought there would be some leeway. The trade I came up with above involves an excess of just $6,800 (.0001242%).
yeah as written the cba says 100 percent, not around 100 percent. if the tiny shortfall was bc nyk was sending too little, it would be easy to fix with one minimum contract guaranteed at only $6800. but your trade has the excess on the incoming suns side and that seems unfixable bc they are second apron so can’t aggregate out period. if they swapped huk for kolek in that deal then they could clean it up as above. either way if they wanted to make a deal with mitch and og it would be all but academic to include a third team to make it work, but it’s a bit harder with formulations that induce a bigger salary gap like some hypothetical mikal deals.
And just happens to be the best at a premium position and on a Hall of Fame trajectory.
Lindor was that guy before Mendoza. Showalter valued him immensely for exactly that reason.
The issue is that the lineup from 5 through 9 is flat right now. If you give Marte credit, then it’s really 6 through 9. Vientos has underwhelmed, and the injury hasn’t helped. Alvarez needs to step it up—otherwise we’re leaning too hard on Torrens. Baty will be streaky, which is expected, but the bigger questions are whether Acuña can consistently square up the ball and whether Mauricio’s “liberal” pitch recognition will translate at the Major League level.
Alvarez has a broken hamate bone and those take a long time to properly heal. He might not get his bat really going this season at all.
Fortunately this iteration of the Mets is smart, and they won’t give up on him. He’s still only 23, a baby for a catcher.
ugh, sorry to hear that ess-dog…hope your spirits are alright…for some reason when the pooch gets sick i kinda get sad, which doesn’t otherwise really happen too often…
i think though it’s ’cause i feel guilty when things go wrong with her cuz i did something wrong, which unfortunately is true to that point too often…
hope you all are feeling better and out and about soon again…
jiminy…watching media day for the finals, just listened to pascal and now hali…
when the heck did these young athletes get so aware and thoughtful, profound at moments…
luv the way shai listens, thinks about it, and then speaks…60 plus and i can barely manage it…
yeah got what whatever it is you were fittin’ to say, so let’s just move forward now with me talking again
Yeah, I’m all for giving Alvarez time. For perspective, he’s around the same age as Baty, Acuña, and Mauricio—except he plays a position where players typically take longer to figure things out. But there’s a legitimate question about whether his approach at the plate will allow him to be consistently productive.
Breaks my heart. I’m sure I’m getting the ages wrong, but KD is about 37 years old. Mitch and OG are each about a decade younger. We’d have no runway.
Looks like we are being denied permission to speak with Kidd.
Pheeeeeeew…..
I think the Dallas Mavericks front office has done more to improve the state of our franchise than even our own front office.
1. The KP trade
2. Letting Brunson walk
3. Giving us our Casey Smith-led training staff.
4. Now this.
I think the most likely Durant trade, to the extent that any are likely, is just KAT plus a rookie (such as Dadiet) for KD. The Suns get to pivot without going full rebuild and get a very good player on a long-term deal, plus a guy to dream on. We get a better fit and KD on an expiring which gives us lots of flexibility in the following two years while staying competitive this coming season.
Starting lineup is:
JB
Mikal
OG
KD
Mitch
Works per the FanSpo trade machine, which hasn’t wronged me yet.
Would I do it? I don’t know–how is KD on defense these days? He was really good on that end on Golden State, but it’s been a while. But the top end version of that starting 5 is probably better than the top-end version of a starting lineup with KAT at the 4, and definitely better than the top-end version of a starting lineup with KAT at the 5. We’d have to find a C on a vet min or hope that Huk is ready to be a backup.
I think we’d still be sending value in the trade–maybe we could grab Dunn in the deal? KAT surely can’t be equivalent value to Durant to a team that can’t tank like Phoenix, since he’s locked down long-term and in his prime. From the other side, the argument would be that freeing up our cap is payment enough. I guess I would pull the trigger on the deal as listed above, since flexibility is more important than ever.
we need to continue to play mitch less than regular starter minutes if we want to have him at all nick richards although not awesome is still a center whereas dunn is not i could even be pretty happy if we poached plumlee or bol bol much more happy if we plucked plumlee maybe even over richards
This is the last year of Durant’s contract, so I’m not sure what the plan would be once that expires. The whole thing just seems like a rather bad idea.
KAT is way too much to give up for Durant.
which is why we need more from then like a plumlee and or maybe an ighodaro i am not saying i am in favor of any of this i am saying that if we did it we could not expect mitch to play 36 minutes per game in the absence of kat and we would need a center ahead of or at least on par with huk to make up for it
They’re not allowed to aggregate players in a trade.
Works per the FanSpo trade machine, which hasn’t wronged me yet.
it’s wrong. it hasn’t quite met the task of the new cba when it comes to the aprons. but again if we wanted to do that deal it’s close enough that there’s no doubt we could make it happen.
oh yeah on no aggregation hard no on kat for kd straight up we can do better unless it could be a three way trade somehow but i do not want us to work that hard to get kd
KAT for Durant is way too much.
My brother in law, who is a Cubs fan, asked me today what the Mets need going forward. He said the Cubs need a good starting pitcher or two and the Mets may have a surplus very soon.
I told him we need an all-round CF, so want PCA. We both laughed.
Spotrac has a trade machine. If anyone has the full CBA, it’s them. They might still be working out some kinks though.
Allen Iverson turns 50 today. Always the controversial player in the on-paper vs in-reality debates.
Question to all of you wholly objective, thoroughly non-biased, judicially impartial fans out there:
Who do you rank higher on the all-time great list? Iverson or Ewing?
Iverson played in an era that was well suited to his talents. Ewing probably would have been a really valuable stretch 5 in the modern game.
In the actual eras they did play in… maybe that’s a push
Which reminds me, as I was scouring the internet on Thursday searching diligently for some ex-Thunder, current-Pacers fans to share the excitement with, blinded by unseasonal interest in NBA basketball, I totally forgot your birthday. We’ve gone our separate ways over the last few weeks, but I still love you, man. Happy belated birthday, Big Blue Al. May you have more LJ 4 point plays in your future.
Everyone struggles with the “apron” because before the NBA started redefining the English language, it has never been used the way they do. It’s a made up meaning for a confusing concept.
Durant is on his victory lap, I don’t want any part of him.
Kidd is a coach that should stay far away from us.
It would be great if our offense evolved from players pretending to be Al Harrington
Also King Gizzard are based about 15mins from me (Brunswick) and they are an amazing band. Every album different but still awesome.
Thanks Donnie, yeah my birthday is a very famous day in Knicks history at the expense of the Pacers. You’re presence here will always be welcome no matter my frustration at the Pacers success.
#Also King Gizzard are based about 15mins from me (Brunswick) and they are an amazing band. Every album different but still awesome.#
Went almost unaware (except a few youtube views on a few tracks just to check what they play) and felt that they might Not be my cup of tea after the 2 first tracks they played but …. BANG!
In the third one they started Jamming endlessly with High Energy Psychedelia and hooked me pretty well!
The plumes of smoke i inhaled throughout the set from the never ending joints around me may helped a bit too!
https://sports.yahoo.com/nba/breaking-news/article/sources-some-knicks-players-werent-thrilled-with-tom-thibodeau-with-his-firing-being-spearheaded-by-owner-james-dolan-225418057.html
One of the players = Mikal Bridges
Sigh.
This makes it pretty clear that Thibs didn’t just get fired — he lost the locker room. Dolan leading the exit interviews while Leon Rose took a backseat tells you everything: he wanted to hear it straight from the players. And what he heard was blunt — too many minutes, no real adjustments, and in at least one case, a player flat-out saying he couldn’t play for Thibs if he stayed. Once that kind of statement is made, it’s done. Rose didn’t need to push back because the message was coming directly from the players themselves.
The real Minutes Police were the guys playing all the minutes
JK, what is your handle over at Fangraphs? Baseball opinions on points
I am taking Ewing all day long…
I’m a very big YES on Lonzo Ball if we could make that happen in a reasonable way. I was a big fan before he got hurt and I’d gamble on him now.
It sounds like Thibs lost a lot of the locker room, which I’m actually a little surprised by as it relates to anyone but Bridges. Definitely seems like it was untenable to keep him on unless we wanted to trade a bunch of guys to keep Thibs, which strikes me as a bad idea. It also helps explain why they seem to be targeting guys known as “players coaches,” for better or worse.
I hope the Mavs don’t bend the knee and continue to reject draft compensation from us for their totally excellent coach.
With the news that Zach Edey will be out for the start of next season after ankle surgery, I would see if the Knicks could turn Mitchell Robinson, Deuce McBride & Josh Hart into Desmond Bane. Bane is exactly the third 3&D wing with size to slot between Brunson & KAT.
Memphis would be betting on a Mitch & Edey center tandem to anchor their defense in the playoffs.
https://www.espn.com/nba/trademachine?tradeId=2dnmgle2
That article doesn’t pass the smell test. His “sources” sound like Mad Dog’s radio rant.
For career value, I would take Ewing over Iverson and I don’t think it is close. Iverson has a higher peak (2001), but that was the only season when an Iverson team made a deep playoff run. Ewing (139 playoff games) had nearly double the number of playoff games as Iverson (71). After his first few seasons, Iverson was a defensive liability, while Ewing was a defensive star.
AI was known for being a cultural icon…Patrick Ewing was known for being – thrifty…
on the court though, pat all day every day…
My Fangraphs handle is shootybabbitt (lol) but I rarely post there
It’s a great site. Completely changed how I experience baseball for the better.
I mean, those players aren’t wrong. Thibs was way too rigid, which is why teams always got the jump on up at the beginnings of third quarters. And he never really adjusted until after seeing 2-3 weeks of data, much less in a game.
He did improve a little in the playoffs but not enough to keep up with the Pacers.
I guess my ideal coach would be a former player with some years working as an offensive assistant on a staff… maybe it’s Jerry Stackhouse’s time?
Most of all I want a coach that will take an evidence-based approach to maximize this roster. An open mind that balances creativity with pragmatism. Age, background, those are secondary.