I don’t like this Woj bomb:
ESPN Sources: Free agent C Isaiah Hartenstein has agreed on a three-year, $87 million deal with the Oklahoma City Thunder. Hartenstein leave the Knicks for the top West seed eager to add his size, skill and physicality.
Can’t compete with $29 million a year for a title contender. That suuuucks.
Come on, Leon, come up with an awesome Plan B!
EDITED TO ADD: Apparently the third year is at least a partial team option. That seems to fit the timeline of the Chet and JWill extensions better.
325 replies on “ESPN.com: Hartenstein to Thunder for 3 Years, $89 million”
This one is on Brian and his jinxes! š
repeating from previous:
given the reports that ihartās third year is not guaranteed, then the deal would really look like 2/60 with no player option. this is far less of a risk for okc and does not leak into the year they have to extend chet and jdub. this make it less of an āoverpayā than it looks compared to the 4/90 declining deal with a player option that seemed like the most dangerous competitive offer. although it could turn out to be partially guaranteed, so itās hard to say for certain.
The way it went down was peak Dolanās Razor. Thanks, Brian!
It’s infuriating that the Knicks lose what could be its final piece for a title run due to CBA shitfuckery.
As soon as a I saw that Claxton contract I started preparing myself for the idea that Hartenstein wasnāt returning. There was just no way our max allowable offer was going to be competitive given the market.
Itās actually due to poor planning by the front office.
For the last week or so, you guys have been wishcasting the idea that they have everything on lockdown and they have a plan for all contingencies.
Well, they didnāt even have a plan for Isaiah Hartenstein becoming good when they signed him.
They should have either signed him for three years or made the lottery pick. One or the other.
Now OKC has the guy we could have picked (Williams) and the guy we punted the pick to sign.
Ruh Roh Scoobie
Plan āBā
So, what where those trade backs in the draft about again? They could’ve traded up for a center
Well the original sin is that they only signed him for two years, but once that part of the cake was baked there was not a lot they could do about it. I donāt think many believed heād be a $30M AAV player even at his 200 percentile outcome.
From what I understand the Knicks could have something like $11M in wiggle room to play with, so perhaps there is a creative way to bring in that rim running, shot-blocking big that weāre not thinking about. Hartenstein will be missed but next man up.
i am asking the people to come up with their most creative plan b.
randle at the 5 is excluded by statute.
Hubert we really have no idea if iHart would’ve taken a third year and there are good reasons to believe he wouldn’t have, as evidenced by…the way him not doing so panned out for him.
“Ms. Hartenstein will not leave to go to a city as boring as OKC”, well money talks
The biggest issue is after spending all those assets on Mikal and paying huge money to OG the team has a huge hole that could derail them from contender status.
So it turns out we mortgaged our future into the 2030s for a team maybe a little less good than we had last year. With zero reliable centers and zero avenues to get one. I knew iHart was gone but wow, we couldn’t even get Jalen Smith or someone like that. With Goga off the board who is even left?
Hereās my plan B.
Someone put Mitch on a flight to Lourdes and have him bathe in the waters for awhile.
There was never a chance that iHart would return. I wish him well until we play OKC.
Mitch Robinson, Jericho Sims and Ariel Hukporti are our centers for 2024-25. If anything, let’s resign Precious. We need a backup for Randle.
Paying ihart 30m per year is just wrong
Finding the next JoNoah for Thibs won’t be THAT Hatd
Keep going forward gentlemen!
Mitch is the better defender when heās 100% but thatās rare and even when heās at 100% we are going to lose a little spacing and playmaking.
When Mitch is playing and healthy, the defense with OG, Bridges and Mitch should be top 5 and we have enough offensive power, but itās not optimal, especially with Mitch always hurt.
It’s not creative at all, but I think GoGet Bitadze remains the best Plan B (at least among options I’m aware of). We could probably run similar sets with him in iHart’s place, and it looks like he’s pretty solid from the floater range we like.
If Goga is out of our price range, I’d be interested to see if we could reverse-Obi the Pacers for Isaiah Jackson.
I didn’t see that he signed anywhere ????
I- Hart was a really good passing center which made the offense flow a lot better compared to Mitch.
I mean, if Goga is out of the picture why not take a flyer on Biyombo?
Hasnāt it been argued many times here that rim-running, shot-blocking bigs are not a rare commodity and donāt have a lot of value? Well, letās go get one!
Iām only half joking here. Seems like you should be able to find a guy like that on a non-contending team who doesnāt make a big salary.
Because he has spent a decade plus stinking up NBA arenas? I have always thought Biyombo was one of the worst NBA players I have ever seen and I am amazed that the guy has played 16,000 minutes.
Mo Wagner…
Begley reported right after the Bridges trade that I- Hart was gone, so he did break this news last week.
“Most creative?”
I think we better ready ourselves for Jericho Sims to have his “Devean George on the 2023-24 Lakers” moment.
I will remember you
Will you remember me
Don’t let your life pass you by
Weep not for the memories
iHart was a joy to watch. I loved watching his game blossom in NY. It’s not fair.
CJ McCollum will not see heaven for allowing this CBA to happen
Our not drafting a center gave me hope we might be getting iHart back but now that we are not, holy fucking shit what a catastrophic blunder.
For whoever asked, Magic will be offering Goga more than we can afford to.
Thibs’ big man whispering abilities meet their biggest test yet: James Wiseman
āHasnāt it been argued many times here that rim-running, shot-blocking bigs are not a rare commodity and donāt have a lot of value? Well, letās go get one!ā
I agree. I think a healthy season from Mitch is all the traditional 5 minutes we need. Iām not sure I buy the whole āinjury proneā thing given how dangerous basketball is.
Looked at Hukporti tape. Heās a lefty with a nice floater! Keep being you, Leon
Itās time for Josh Hart to play center.
For real though: Goga if gettable, Bamba or Reed if not.
The Thunder made 2 excellent additions. They have to be the favorite out west
From what I can tell, and somebody tell me if Iām wrong, we can offer Goga something like $11M.
The Magic are going to go way above THAT? He doesnāt even have a spot in the rotation there as they have too many bigs. I wouldnāt rule out Goga to the Knicks just yet.
I think OKC going away from the 5 out offense could hurt them. Chet was a matchup nightmare at the 5.
āThe Thunder made 2 excellent additions. They have to be the favorite out westā
Yeah, but thatās a gigantic bag for Hartenstein, no? The non guaranteed 3rd year makes it a little more shrewd but still. For a guy that youāll forbid to shoot from outside the paint?
i feel like blasting some air supply. love passing bigs in general and have been stanning ihart since he was floating around unwanted. at a game last year, he saw my then-six year old and, without a whit of solicitation, gave a pair of his shoes to Scott King to pass back to him. losing hartenstein and iq (rj was perfectly likeable not sure why i never quite warmed up) has totally sucked. at least lucky we still have so many likeable players.
Unless we somehow duck under the LT (I could only see it if we trade Mitch and even then it’s tight), we can only offer Goga the TPMLE of a hair over $5M AAV.
Yeah, Hart was both good and fun, it sucks he’s gone.
Thanks for that, Noble. So uh yeah, maybe Goga is not a thing.
The best pitch to Goga is probably that heād play a lot here and get a chance to thrive in Thibsā system and maybe get a big bag of his own on his next contract. You know, basically pull a Hartenstein.
I think they overpaid, but it doesnāt really matter. They are a serious contender and he helps without doing any long term damage if it doesnāt work.
I do think it’s fair to wonder now why the heck they didn’t draft a center.
Do they just accept being hard capped at the first apron at this point? Avoiding that would involve giving up more assets, so maybe just accept the hard cap?
I think they are going to alter the Bridges deal to give us more money to work with.
https://x.com/shwinnypooh/status/1807776482644705329
Without the CBA Steve Ballmer could just buy everyone so letās not go there. Again, Sam Presti has shown himself to be a magician. Iām not really interested in peopleās leftover bigs. Deuce was ready for a bigger role that no one thought he could handle. Iād rather Sims step up. There really wasnāt enough minutes to go around on this team with Ihart coming back. Cs gave up very popular guys and got better. Knicks will adapt and get better.
I loved ihart, but do you guys really think he was the final piece of a championship roster?
I expect an immediate pivot. Probably Bitadze or even Wiseman. I know..Wiseman has been bad, but he’s young, of high draft pedigree, and showed high level skills but not much ability to put it together. Much like Hartenstein was when Thibs got ahold of him, though Hartenstein’s floor was higher. But an immediate pivot to possibly add a center, a bigger F/C(maybe Achiuwa if his market isn’t great), and roster all of our rookies now that we have a tad more money to spend. I’d still look to move Sims and bring Milton back. Maybe the FO focuses on figuring out the Randle situation as well. I’m disappointed we lost Hartenstein, but I can’t blame him. He went to a good team for alot of money. Problem for him will be the fact he’s now the only reliable C on that team as Holmgren is probably better at the 4 anyway.
I hope Hartenstein holds up and we will see him in the Finals lol
I definitely want any iHart replacement to have some of his passing chops and will also miss him badly. Maybe I’m just salty, but requiring three seasons for full bird rights to kick in seems like overkill. I get not triggering them after one because that would make circumvention pretty easy, but if a guy spends two full years somewhere I don’t think he and the team are trying anything funny.
Re: passing chops, maybe we can expand the trade with the Nets to get Day’ron Sharpe? They’re Obi’d with him–last year of his rookie scale deal and likely to walk–so maybe they’d toss him in for some seconds?
I actually DO think Hartenstein was the final piece of a championship roster. With him, we really didnāt have a weakness. Without him, we have a rather large one as weāre now talking about relying on the likes of James Wiseman and Precious Achiuwa.
Unless we somehow duck under the LT (I could only see it if we trade Mitch and even then itās tight), we can only offer Goga the TPMLE of a hair over $5M AAV.
i think we can use the non-tp mle all the way up to the first apron even if we are over the luxury tax line
Well, I-Hart gives them a much better shot than Sims or the next available option. He maximized the starting lineup in a way I’ve never seen Mitch be able to do. I- Harts passing ability is a big loss.
Altering the Bridges deal doesn’t really give us more money to “work with” at this point. Even if we’re hard capped at the first apron, I think we can finagle access to the full TPMLE. Not being hard capped at the first apron was only a priority if we needed room for iHart, so now there’s not much of a point to moving heaven and earth to avoid it.
I think you’re right, Brian, they’ll probably accept being hard-capped at the 1st apron. We have the Taxpayers MLE (5.17M) and the BAE (4.67M) to bring in iHart’s replacement and… maybe a backup PG?
i wasn’t a big fan of Reed (not sure if he signed overnight) but I recall Hubie Brown always being enamored with him when he did the games ….he is gone in Philly since Drummond is coming in…not sure what he will be paid…
Other than that…I am not on the ledge…we still have a good squad…and if miracles happen and Mitch can be healthy….we’ll be alright..
I Hart is a massive overpay.
I’d sooner give Jericho Sims all the minutes he could handle than give one minute to James Wiseman. Same goes for a guy I learned about last week named Ariel Hukporti.
I have mixed feelings on how good he really is and much value he adds. I think the issue is that he was our best fit at C and more reliable than Mitch. So we took a step backwards at one position which is not what you want after just going all in on Bridges.
Maybe theyāll sign and trade Precious as part of the Bridges deal to open some dollars?
The issue really isn’t the loss of iHart. It’s that we are left with Mitch. We need to upgrade Mitch to someone less injury-prone and with a different skillset given the current roster. So I see a Mitch trade as a possible Leon plan b. And perhaps that includes Julius.
The original sin is that they traded a lottery pick in a stacked draft to sign him for two years. If you liked the guy so much back then, lock in some protection for yourself. If he was unwilling to sign for three years, say thank you very much and make your lottery pick.
To add insult to injury, even the most ardent front office supporter cannot say with a straight face that those Detroit and Washington picks are likely to convey. We squandered one of the biggest potential boons to the franchise, and we have nothing to show for it two summers later.
All these little things some of y’all kept hand-waving have now come home to roost. We have built a Death Star with a thermal exhaust port and we probably don’t have the resources to fix it.
One of two miracles could bail us out: we find a center just as good with our limited resources, or Mitch stays healthy.
#prayformitch
It’s also worth pointing out Hartenstein started every single one of those games that factored into OG Anunoby’s 20-3 record. We were 0-5 without Hartenstein after the OG trade. Could very well be that y’all have been crediting the wrong guy.
Seeing as how we used one of the firsts acquired from the series of 2022 draft night trades to trade for Mikal Bridges, I think it’s quite reductive to say we “traded a lottery pick” to sign iHart for two years.
Hubert the Knicks didn’t look good against Indy after going up 2-0 without OG. I-Hart was also getting cooked by Turner. Both players are good, but OG is the more valuable player between the two.
In addition to being something that is purely theoretical based on the last 5 years ir so, a fully healthy Mitch still leaves us with a 20 minute gaping hole at the 5 every night. Picking Pacome instead of one of the many available center prospects was absolutely insane
Please don’t try this weak shit again unless you’re prepared to explain your position that the entire Mikal Bridges trade would have fallen apart without the inclusion of Milwaukee’s 2025 draft pick, even though we could have easily replaced it with the either of the 2024 draft picks we held onto.
Our ultimate goal is to compete with the Celtics, and the addition of Bridges definitely helps us match up better with them. However Porzingis is still the problem. We start Mitch at center, KP hangs out by the 3 point line and completely negates Mitch as a rim protector.
And on the offensive end, no one really has to guard Mitch except on rolls to the basket. So Porzingis can just hang around the paint and protect the basket.
We almost need a Kornet type as our backup who can at least keep defenses honest
The original sin is that they traded a lottery pick in a stacked draft to sign him for two years. If you liked the guy so much back then, lock in some protection for yourself. If he was unwilling to sign for three years, say thank you very much and make your lottery pick.
I’m sorry, but “the lottery pick for iHart” never made sense to me because there were a bunch of other intertwined transactions/potential transactions happening. We lost iHart for nothing because he became too (way beyond expectations) good in 2024, not because of decisions made in 2022.
D-Mar Mo Wagner..
I mean, there was this guyā¦
https://www.reddit.com/r/Hartenstein/comments/sx7p1g/the_all_star_week_is_here_so_to_fill_time_i_want/
Might not have been a bad idea to trade up in this yearās draft to take one of the bigs. KelāEl might have been tough to grab but we probably could have traded up to get Missi. Wouldnāt mind having that guy on the roster right now. The French Tobias Harris kid looks decent but this is a win now situation.
I-Hart looks better than he was because Mitch was constantly hurt or less than 100% and next up was Sims.
Thatās not to say he wasnāt critical.
Itās to say when you have no backup the starter is a huge plus over the 3rd string.
Same with Brunson and no backup PG.
Yes, we probably could have made the trade if we included one of our own picks instead of the Milwaukee pick. This…does not stand for the proposition that the Milwaukee pick was worthless.
I’m assuming you are trying to be funny or fictitious. IHart on the Knicks 23-24 pre OG = 16-14. I Hart on the Knicks when OG played = 20-3.
That implies IHart was the secret sauce… pretty funny.
“iHart cost us a lottery pick” is completely new to me, at least. If you’re going to be completely wrong, might as well be original. I get the kvetching but I think it should still remain fact-based and anchored in reality to some extent.
As several people have said, the loss of Hartenstein stings me less than our inability to replace him.
I’m kind of in a “fuck Isaiah Hartenstein” mood, to be honest, and have been since he no-showed half the playoffs, including that goose-egg in game 7.
It’s not “worthless”, and I’m sure I didn’t use that word.
It was an extremely terrible return for the pick that could have been Jalen Williams.
Hartenstein had been the one saving grace of that gaffe. And now he’s on the same team that stole the pick from us.
Ihart has top energy and pretty good bball insticts but let’s not act that we lost Baby Olajuwon!!!
I don’t know about $30M but I thought he could outplay our ability to re-sign him since he came.
His numbers this year look pretty similar to his numbers in LA, they might even be worse.
That is in fact one implication of saying we traded it for Isaiah Hartenstein, because it omits that, in addition to the space required to sign Isaiah Hartenstein, we received other, valuable stuff.
Filipowski was available
Just because it’s new to you, Doug, doesn’t mean it hasn’t been a fact for two years.
You’re doing your own version of “it’s not really incinerated if we got something for it”, but I didn’t say it was worthless.
I never said 10 cents isn’t valuable. I said 10 cents was a terrible return for trading a dollar.
This is a nice get by OKC. I believe IHart can probably play a little 5 out. He is a career 31% 3 pt shooter and probably will relish the opportunity to chuck up a few more. They have to be prohibitive favorites in the west for the next 3 years. Knicks have their work cut out for them. I would shoot for Bitadze and also bring back Precious. Also, one thing I know about Knickerblogger is that it always vastly underestimates what players are āworthā. Itās the Umarrell Effect.
It’s all covered in the in-out chart since lottery day 2022, now officially complete (and brutal) with iHart’s departure.
To me, Holmgren and iHart is not a great fit, but, c’est la vie!
Mo Wagner or Goga Bitzade would be nice. Is Orlando keeping all their centers?
Mo Bamba would be ok in my book, also.
Like PT I love passing bigs so I loved I-Hart and he was on my “personal fave” team even before coming here.
Fit often is more important than “raw value”, he would have worked pretty well with our other four starters with his passing skills from the post and his screening ability, plus he and Mitch would’ve give us 48 minutes of very good to great defense.
Now, with Julius and Mitch back into the starting lineup, I’m worried our dreaded spacing problems will raise their ugly head again.
With him we would have been title contenders while, barring an unexpected surprise, without him we’re a pretty good team but less flexible and really thin at Center.
I’ll probably need a month-long mourn to get over it.
In the meantime I’m still waiting their “W plan” to finally grade this offseason, but the “A+ cum laude” option is gone for good.
You can’t be mad that the Knicks lost a guy who sucks, gotta pick one
If my spreadsheet is correct, and I’m not convinced it is, we can use about $7.9M out of the non-tax MLE to sign Goga and hit the 1st apron to the cent.
Assumptions:
* Kolek, Hukporti, Rokas, McCullar
sign for min
* Sims stats on roster
* Carry 14 players
Issues:
* Bottom of our roster is 4 potentially
useless rookies & Sims
I would have been happy with Filipowski but he is not the prototypical Thibs center. I probably would have just gone with Collier and Filipowski with our picks as Filipowski at least gives you a little bit of shooting from the 5.
I donāt hate what we did in the draft but this seems like a curious time to take a flyer on an upside play like the French kid when there are plug-and-play guys who play at positions of need still on the board. Could have also just done Filipowski and Kolek if you really want to go for the plug-and-play thing.
The seeming lack of preparation for the fallout makes me more likely to believe Dolan played a big part in the Mikal trade.
Well, eventually the Knicks will have to get away from the rim runners to improve the teams overall ceiling. Flip paired with Mitch would be a viable duo with different skill sets. Mitch defense against a team like Boston is not very valuable since they have Centers who bomb away from 3 and Mitch is most valuable around the rim. On the other end he isn’t going to make them pay on offense.
Portland currently has Ayton, Clingan, Williams, and Reath. I’d start there.
I think Filipowski sent up some massive red flags in his interviews for him to drop as much as he did. At some point 29 teams realized they were talking to Charles Melton’s character from May/December
I heard he fell because of his GF..
I-Hart was fine. Decent centers exposed him. It was more about flow and fit than anything else. His offensive rebound bursts and passing skills were real positives. He took the money, so I will forget about him. Leon will scoop up another center who will play the Thibs way and we will be happy.
If Filipowski fell in the draft because his girlfriend is older than he is, thatās a market inefficiency you should be taking advantage of, especially if you desperately need a center.
I for one am really excited to see Thibs turn another hustlebunny into a fan favorite.
I really can’t believe we straight up locked in to like a 51 win team with no plan whatsoever to get a playable center who isn’t the worst offensive player in the league. We project to have about 15 games where Mitch and OG are even on the floor.
Hard not to say “I told you so” when so many voices here didn’t want to believe iHart was worth ecen 20m, let alone near 30. I guess it’s BOS/OKC in the finals until the Wemby era begins and we can start looking forward to when we finally tear down this monument to the mezzanine and start building fir the 2040s.
E must be devastated at how lightly he has to tread given that he has dogged iHart on multiple occasions.
IHart can’t shoot, only does well on fake AIO metrics, vanishes in the playoffs and it’s a horrific catastrophe that he’s gone
Yeah maybe just bringing back Precious and coaching him up on offense is our best bet at this point.
Contrary to Noble and DRed, you can dog iHart and Leon simultaneously here because Leon painted himself into the “either iHart or garbage” corner.
Hartenstein doesn’t have to be great for his loss to be devastating when you can’t bid on 99% of the replacement market.
(But honestly I’m only dogging iHart because I’m bitter, which is childish but whatever.)
Hmm. Time Lord. Kind of forgot about him. Maybe thereās some way to make that happen.
Oh good Pagliacci is here to do some squalling crybaby shit. That definitely adds a lot to the conversation.
nvm, I think I forgot to include bonuses.
More bad news:
Dalton Johnson: Kevin Knox has a strained calf and will not be part of the Warriorsā summer league team anymore.
Has to be this. Only Dolan could want to lock in a perennial first round exit team until 2032. We aren’t even better than the Sixers now.
Lot of people around here who don’t know how to behave at a funeral š
I would have taken Filipowski. He is the only big that fell to us, who I think could have contributed on both ends of the floor right away. I don’t know why they took Dadiet or what the plan is now, but I do think they have earned a little trust that they have a plan.
Who has tastycake’s plug-in thing? I think it’s going to be necessary to survive this summer.
You could do it straight up for Donte.
You could maybe do it for Deuce + [sign Alex Burks for $8MM and trade him] + the Fugazi picks.
Some other interesting buy-low options for backup C:
Jock Landale, if he’s waived (each of his years is non-guaranteed)
As TNFH mentioned, Isaiah Jackson
Xavier Tillman
And the Celtics just re signed Derrick White
(1) Trade ??? for Jock Landale
(2) Randle for Jarrett Allen
(3) Mitch to NOP, Ingram to ORL Wendell to NY (no idea why this wouldn’t be a WCJr for Ingram swap)
(4) Dadiet & rest of picks for Kessler
(5) Remake MSG to look exactly like OKCs stadium and trick their players into playing for us
Trust that they have plan!? They have literally just been exposed as not having one. No plan to get a serviceable C is even possible at this point without sacrificing the very depth and talent that would have made us great with iHart.
With Mitch we probably get 35-40 healthy games. With Mitch & Time Lord, we maybe get a combined 40-43 healthy games.
“Dadiet & rest of picks for Kessler”
I thought of this, but didn’t feel like getting lambasted.
Kessler- easy pass. Knicks don’t need to use up assets on a rim runner
Huh? He’s significantly overpaid, which is what happens when you have guys on your team go UFA.
Leon went vet-heavy, let’s pay retail, in lieu of making draft picks. This is what happens.
Kessler shot 33% from 3 his rookie season and took 6x as many 3s his second season… just don’t look into his shooting numbers any more than that
4/125.
Must be nice.
I understand gkhenman’s optimism but this is where I’m at.
These guys came here with a massive war chest of their own picks and surplus picks. They squandered way too many picks with no concern about equal value. And then they threw everything that was left at OG and Bridges.
I don’t trust they have a plan now, but I won’t begrudge you if you do.
Can Dolan buy the Celtics?
Shame to lose iHart – he gave us some of the best memories from this year’s run, and I loved the way he played.
Even worse to lose him to OKC, who I do not enjoy. Oh well.
Totally unsurprising that certain posters here feel the need to act like the sky is literally falling, but this is why I created Knickerblocker – free in the Chrome store!
Really hard to pay premium dollars for your top 8 guys these days and Brunson and Randle are both due for raises… have to find bargain guys who can do the job, or grow some kids into the role. Hoping Mitch stays healthy for 82 + playoffs is a pipe dream. Randle or OG at the 5 may be borne out of necessity here… as bizarre as that may seem for a Thibs team.
Are we still paying Jo Noah? Maybe he can suit up.
Did we give up when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?!?!?!?
Anyway, I donāt think itās going to be impossible to find a competent backup C who can provide some rim protection, rebounding, and the occasional dunk here and there. If the plan is to bring back Precious Achiuwa and pretend like thatās the solution then yes, roast away. But weāre not quite done yet and centers are not impossible to find.
I don’t think Achiuwa is the answer, but I also don’t think this is the end of the world either.
Leon told Dolan for years the 1s would bring in a superstar, a superstar never came in, Dolan lost patience, said where’s my superstar, told Leon to trade them this summer, and the 1s were spent this summer for Mikal. Leon gets extra brownie points for “fucking” BKN at the same time.
There’s no real reason to believe “we’re going to hoard assets and trade them for a superstar” was even Leon’s idea in the first instance. That’s a Dolan thing. Most likely, Leon went along to get the job.
Claxtons 4 year, 100 million dollar deal seems dumb on his end after this I-Hart deal. It’s not even like he was doing it for a good team.
It’s here.
I will say this for Thibs, though: the dude brought centers back!
He did such a good job bringing centers back that now his team can’t afford to get him one š
Also, there’s no reason to want to trade Julius. We’d get shit value for him right now and he’s likely to be very good this year anyway.
I don’t think it was the the age gap itself. I think it was the way he answered questions about that situation in the interviews. It’s not just the older gf he was getting questions about, it was also cutting off his entire family for her.
Something about the way he addressed the situation was fishy and made 29 teams pass on a legit 7 foot stretch 5. Some of them, including us, passed on him twice. We generally agree that NBA GMs are not immune to being stupid, but I think this points to him talking about his relationship and his family — or not talking about it, who knows — and giving a lot of people a “something is very wrong here” feeling.
Duke had also successfully kept the details of his relationship a secret when he was there. Even the most plugged-in members of their fanbase barely heard a whisper about it. So he never had to face scrutiny about his girlfriend or being estranged from his family before the draft.
It’s impossible under the new CBA.
The amount of Knicks PTSD on display right now is truly breathtaking. We were one win away from the ECF last year despite being riddled with injuries, acquired an all-star caliber player, some interesting rookies, lost a great but ultimately “80-20” sort of player who is arguably no better than his backup, and now we have people besmirching the Leon Rose FO as bumbling incompetents who locked us into the mezzanine. It’s hysterical catastrophizing.
Leon and Co obviously knew that this was a possibility. We can lambast them when we end up with Jericho Sims or Ariel Hukporti as our backup C (though the latter actually seems decent to me.) Until then, we should wait for yet another move instead of flying off the handle.
We also shouldn’t act as if Mitch being injured for half a season is a foregone conclusion. He’s played 60+ games, which to me at least qualifies as his being “fairly healthy” in 3/6 seasons–4/6 if you expand the interval to >= 59 GP.
If Mitch has one of his healthier seasons and we acquire a decent backup C–entirely within the realm of possibility–losing Hartenstein is close to a non-issue. If he has one of his less healthy seasons, we’re in some amount of trouble–but unclear how much until we know who the backup C is. Note that this is true of pretty much *every* contender. If KP is injured, Boston is eminently mortal. Likewise with I-Hart and OKC. Or Philly with Joel or PG.
It’s also important to price in that we’re going to be *much* less reliant on our center position for our defense with Mikal in the fold, so even if we’re playing a subpar backup C we may have a very good defense during those minutes, contingent on lineups. Again, this is all still up in the air. But the idea that Leon and co have abjectly failed in their asset management of I-Hart beggars belief and essentially relies on unsubstantiated superstition regarding what he was or wasn’t willing to take in 2022.
Bigger picture, the betting markets also don’t agree with such a pessimistic assessment of the Rose FO and therefore the Knicks prospects, given that we have the fifth best odds–tied with Minnesota–to win a chip next year sans I-Hart’s replacement and the PG to Philly news. The evidence simply does not support the view that Rose has locked us into a faux-contender, nor does it support the idea that we could’ve had our cake and eaten it too with I-Hart. Knicks PTSD might support such suspicions, but Knicks PTSD isn’t evidence.
Katz’ article says the Knicks knew this was likely for a while, so I will go ahead and predict that the center position is addressed in a way that is at least satisfactory to everyone that isn’t coming up with fan fiction about James Dolan demanding Mikal Bridges.
Everything you said is correct, but you’re giving E way, way too much credit when you say he’s legitimately exhibiting the symptoms of Knicks PTSD. It’s just a shtick.
Celtics owners back loading an enormous tax burden and bouncing is pretty wild
Weird timing right after they just re-signed White. It makes it more obvious they are cashing out and ducking the tax
It must’ve been a pretty easy negotiation with Derrick White, knowing they wouldn’t be the ones paying him anyway
Still the leader in the clubhouse.
I can almost hear Leon sweating and feverishly working the phones from here in Virginia.
Going to miss IHart but he richly deserves a big deal and OKC is a perfect landing spot, in basketball terms.
Goga or bust.
I donāt know, at this point I do believe Leon has a plan. View is quite hazy though.
W/R/T Portland and their C options, is it feasible to use Mitch, Randle, Dadiet, and maybe Burks in a S&T that Nets us Ayton and Time Lord? Or maybe sending Jeffries instead of Burks? We’d probably have to also bring Achiuwa back as the nominal starting PF for balance, but I’d be intrigued by Ayton as a interior presence who can score and rebound while not using as many possessions as Randle does. It’s a crazy idea, but if anyone can make something similar to that work- it’d be Brock Aller. Billups would have to bring Advija off the bench, but they have their C of the future already, so Leon & Co might be able to talk them into it with Mitch having a descending contract.
Time Lord is never healthy and the Celtics won the title right after they upgraded from him.
Time Lord is pretty interesting but also so injury prone. I am not sure how you make that happen without giving up a real rotation piece $-wise.
This whole thing is such a bummer. With iHart back I would put us in the top 4 teams in the league. Without him, I kinda feel like we’re in the 2nd tier looking in — not just because iHart is great, but because the alternative (Mitch) is so injury-prone and now with multiple lower leg surgeries.
Goga would be fine – not sure if he’s taking the TPMLE or if there is more $ out there for him. The best selling point for Goga would be that Isaiah came for the same role with the same coaches/development staff and he just got paid $90MM. We can also offer him more minutes than ORL where he was playing <10 min/game most nights by the time the spring rolled around.
Otherwise I suppose we're looking at Xavier Tillman or bringing Precious back. I am not opposed to bringing him back and building the infrastructure for a more switch-heavy defensive scheme.
TIL that Time Lord had two surgeries on his left knee and then one on his right.
So, uhhh, nvm.
I was going to suggest taking the 80/20 path and sign Mason Plumlee, but apparently he signed for the minimum yesterday before even letting the 80/20 market take form.
What about the other C in Orlando? The one no one there seems to like because he doesn’t shoot threes?
I’ve been a Wendall Carter Jr stan since draft night. He’s been underwhelming but decent, and he’s still just 24 years old.
If you could steal Wendell Carter, then yes by all means do that. He DOES shoot threes and does it quite well and heās on a value contract. Heād probably cost quite a bit I would imagine as I would think many teams would be interested.
There’s no stealing anyone at this point. We’d likely have to give up Donte. Such is the corner we’ve been painted into by our meticulous planning.
But we could replace Donte with the combo of Deuce and a re-signed Burks.
Nova vibes though!
Thatās one unintended consequence of this roster build that I donāt like. Now you have to keep the Four Amigos together or risk a palace revolt.
I don’t think you do. Either Donte or Hart is likely going to be traded to plug this new hole. It might not happen this summer, though.
Timelord has played 215 games in 6 seasons, that’s an average of 36 games per season. Thanks, but no thanks.
Maybe weāll just wind up going with Ariel HucklebuckPortiā¦.
At this point I think the move would have to be Randle for a very good C. Maybe not this summer, but at some point. The best version of this team probably has OG at the 4 and Mikal and the 3, so that Donte can play.
Trading Brunsons best friend in Hart would cause issues I think
ahem…i did a cursory search but i couldnt figure out who time lord was… can someone fill me in… apologies…
Robert Williams III
thank you… effective when healthy…
I’m not a huge Randle guy, but the drop off in shot creation from Randle to Mikal is pretty big.
It makes the most sense to me but Thibs will hate it. Roster is pretty unbalanced right now. No idea what C that would make sense for.
I don’t disagree, but I think the drop off in shot creation is mitigated by the increased spacing in that lineup.
If the Knicks use their mid-level, can they then at some point before the deadline trade that mid-level player plus a minimum guy for someone a bit less than the combined salary?
Klay Thompson to Mavericks. Sheeeesh.
The issue there is we need a full roster and if we send out a min contract we’ll probably need a min contract coming in to meet the 14 man requirement
Award for the most encouraging post of the day goes to danvt. I hope you’re right, man.
For all the good it’s worth, I currently have Hukporti ahead of Sims on my depth chart based solely on having seen Sims play basketball.
I’m pretty disappointed that people have so little faith in Hukporti
I feel like Bitadze vs. Tillman vs. bringing back Precious are the most likely answers. Tillman probably has some playmaking potential that has yet to be realized – I remember back pre-draft that his passing was one of his best characteristics.
In a more serious vein, Orlando desperately needs guards who can shoot, we desperately need a center with ankles, so I could imagine we work with each other’s strengths to get something done. Hard to lose DDv, but him for WCjr would probably be a win for both teams.
Hukporti Island sounds like it would have good drinks.
They can’t seriously think of trading Donte.
At that price I’m glad he didn’t go to Philadelphia.
Some of you guys just love being miserable. The Knicks next season are going to win over 50 games, reach the Conference Finals and have a helluva series vs whoever they face. They are going to be really fucking good.
We could sign Burks for $8mm and package him with Deuce for Carter to make salaries match, and throw in the Fugazi firsts.
I can’t imagine that’s very attractive to Orlando, though.
Golden State swipes KB fave Melton. MELT ON, brotha!
Respectfully, Al, you let this Yankees team fool you, too!
As much as they’ve frustrated me the past couple of weeks the Yankees are still tied for 1st place and have the 2 best hitters in baseball. They’ll be fine just like the Knicks will be without iHart.
I bet the Spurs move for Lauri. That pick they got from the Wolves would be great in a trade like this.
Al, I can tell you right now how the Yankees postseason is going to go: every inning that doesn’t have Soto or Judge is going to be 1-2-3 with 3 k’s.
Yup…. absolutely no reason to slide when 2 of your 5 starters go out at the same time with your 4&5 place hitters….and their top outfield prospect who was hitting .389 in rehab at AAA…. jeesh….
Not really, we are probably a low 50s win team with 3-5% championship equity just like last year. We lost more talent than we brought in and our roster is far less balanced while our rivals got significantly better.
Main difference is we blew our vaunted pick stash to be locked into this for eternity.
Sorry if I’m not swayed by blithe assurances that this is a good outcome from the same people who stuck their heads in the sand and pretended iHart wasn’t a lock to leave us.
Cole’s start yesterday was encouraging and looks like hopefully Gleyber might finally be getting his shit together too. It’s funny how excited Mets fans are about their team who are 40-41 and most Yankee fans are frustrated with their team being 54-32 lol.
Randle for Jarrett Allen seems like the move. Randle is a better fit next to Mobley than Allen long term and Randle is tough for our spacing with both Mitch and whoever backs him up and with Hart.
I think it is a win for both teams.
Knicks lost more talent than they brought in is just as moronic a statement as the same shit being said last summer when they added DDV and lost Obi.
No thanks on Jarrett Allen. Mitch is still only 25 and has four seasons of playing ~60+ games healthy. We just need a good backup for Mitch, ideally one that can space the floor….and if we can’t get that, small ball lineups in spots with Julius+OG+Hart+Bridges+Brunson works too
I really donāt want to give up Randle.
Then again iām not really excited about giving up anyone. The whole point of Bridges was to put together a rock solid team.
This upcoming season Obi will be making more money than DDV and iHart will be making more money than Bridges.
The Kay show basically just called I Hart a scrub
Yeah for all the people here who rightfully love Mitch they now seem to be forgetting he’s still on the roster.
It looks like we’re already in panic mode and we’re wildly underestimating… the infamous internal improvements! š
One thing I believe we can do (intercede any time Mr Milo)… assuming we finish this Bridges trade in a way that doesn’t leave us hard capped… is we can use Bird rights to sign Alec Burks for 1 year, ~$10mm (as long as we’re under the 2nd apron).
And then some time in January/February we can use his salary along with Deuce (4.7MM) and Pacome (2.7MM) in a trade for a C making up to $17.4MM
We can’t use him in a S&T now without a 3 year deal, but I think that way is perfectly legal.
I love Mitch. I think when fully healthy like at the start of the season he was better than IHart I just think he tops out at 25-30 minutes a game and has injury issues.
Getting someone like Allen gets us back to our 48 minute 2 headed center monster and provides injury insurance.
Randleās fit here is questionable and he is one year away from needing a contract we probably canāt afford and shouldnāt give him.
I agree the Knicks shouldn’t extend Randle, but trading him for Allen isn’t the answer. Allen doesn’t bring the necessary shot creation the Knicks will need after Randle is gone.
There is absolutely a reasonable argument that iHart us a better player than Bridges. Just about every metric favors iHart. iHart+ Bojan >>>> Bridges and a bunch if draftees who will likely play 0 minutes.
I know you don’t want this to be true but be reasonable.
The simple move is to just play Randle at C more. Idk, something like:
Brunson 32 ā Deuce 16
Bridges 10 ā Donte 32 ā Deuce 6
OG 16 ā Bridges 22 ā Hart 10
Randle 16 ā OG 16 ā Hart 16
Mitch 24 ā Randle 16 ā Achiuwa 8
Throw in Kolek for a couple minutes here and there
Heretic!
Diamond hard no on Randle for Allen unless we want to lock into 45 wins instead of 51 AND help the Cavs at the same time. If these are our options this is truly shaping up to be a dark age
Btw guys do we hate Deandre Ayton? Asking for a friend.
“I love Mitch. I think when fully healthy like at the start of the season he was better than IHart I just think he tops out at 25-30 minutes a game and has injury issues.
Getting someone like Allen gets us back to our 48 minute 2 headed center monster and provides injury insurance.
Randleās fit here is questionable and he is one year away from needing a contract we probably canāt afford and shouldnāt give him.”
I kinda love it, until someone talks me out of it. We went on our playoff run without Randle (and without a whole bunch of other players, too, as the playoffs went on). And we need a Center, and Allen is a good one.
As usual, though, we’re probably underestimating how difficult it would be to get him. Why would Cleveland be interested in helping us out immensely by doing a 1-for-1 trade?
Randle at the 5 not only won’t happen but it’s also a shitty idea. The benefits of 5 out tend to evaporate when said 5 is horrendous at both shooting and protecting the rim.
“Btw guys do we hate Deandre Ayton? Asking for a friend.”
Yesterday we hated him. Today…….not so much.
Cavs would probably think we’re helping them by trading Randle for Allen which would allow them to play Mobley at Center.
Randle at the 5 really means Anunoby at the 5.
All trades of Julius Randle get a no from me. The whole point of paying that price for Bridges was to go all in on Brunson and Randle.
https://x.com/TheDunkCentral/status/1807864034475364716
No state income tax in Texas hurt the Lakers?
“All trades of Julius Randle get a no from me. The whole point of paying that price for Bridges was to go all in on Brunson and Randle.”
I get that; really, I do. But we have to do *something* now that we’ve lost Hartenstein.
We don’t love him… especially on his current deal.
I’m not entirely sure how we acquire him unless we sign Burks to a $16M deal to combine with Hart. And I do believe the Burks sign and deadline trade works.
Generally speaking, it’d be very on brand to punt the C problem till the deadline
I think we love Duop Reath. Unfortunately, so do the Blazers.
Daniel Theis, anyone?
Send your friend a link to the second apron penalties.
I love iHart but some of you are acting as if we just lost Ewing in his prime.
There most likely wasn’t a basketball point to paying that price for Mikal. All these issues being spotted by KB — all very real — are a very strong inference in that direction.
Do we really think Leon gave up the mother lode for Mikal willingly, knowing that the end result would be jettisoning another core piece? And being hard capped?
No interest in Randle for Allen, and I think people are underrating both Randle in general and his fit with the team as currently constituted.
Remember how valuable iHart was as a 4-on-3 generator when Brunson was trapped? Now imagine those same sets with Julius Randle (as well as Mikal Bridges and OG Anunoby on the wings). Randle is still the best candidate on the roster to punish defenses for pressuring Brunson. I’m not saying he should be untouchable, but trading him for an ~80% FG AST’D guy like Allen would be a step backwards.
I agree that more willingness to opportunistically play Randle at the 5 would go a long way towards mitigating our center issues, and am very cautiously optimistic Thibs might be just a tad more Randle-at-the-5 curious after giving OG some spot 4/5ish (unclear who was the “center” between him and Precious but doesn’t really matter) minutes in the playoffs.
Sure, but any analysis that doesn’t account for positional scarcity is worthless. Derek Jeter and Richie Sexson were similarly offensively productive, but Jeets is in Cooperstown while Sexson is in the funny names Hall of Fame because it’s way, way harder to find a shortstop who can hit like than than a first baseman.
Same goes for big wings vs centers and productivity writ large. There are literally too many productive centers for all of them to even get NBA jobs. The Knicks have, like, 20% of the productive big wings in the NBA.
Look, having two starters at center last year was a waste of resources anyway. A Mitch/Goga pairing is a lot more in line with what most teams have. If you donāt like/believe in Mitch, thatās one thing, but he was having a career defensive year before he got injured.
And we definitely shouldnāt trade a rotation player for a backup center. Thatās just not happening. Please, be reasonable.
We have a great team. Think about Phillyās big three: We have three guys (Mikal, OG, Mitch) who can absolutely shut them down. All we need now is a cromulent backup center to spell Mitch, and we can get one via trade for 2ND ROUNDERS or with the mle.
This.
It also alleviates the minutes crunch at guard/wing.
If Deuce/Bridges/OG/Hart can’t make Crandle passable nothing can (but also maybe it can’t)
Maxey did whatever he wanted in the playoffs with Mitch and OG on the court. Mitch can make Embiid work, but he isn’t going to turn him into some bum.
I think he absolutely knew it was a major risk.
There’s nothing stopping us from eventually trading for a very good C. We can keep the flexibility we need to make trades going forward.
Most of us are assuming the Villanova boys are off limits in a trade. That only leaves Randle and we need him to be #2. That’s not necessarily true.
Assuming there is no move for another C now and we just sign Precious or something like that, what’s going to happen is they are going to take a good look at the team with Bridges on and Randle off the court.
If Bridges is showing that he can be a solid #2 scorer behind Brunson like he was on college and looked like he might be in NJ at times when he was their #1, that opens the door to trading Randle as part of a deal for a high level C. That moves OG to PF and 2 out of 3 of Bridges, Hart and DDV back at SG/SF.
If Bridges doesn’t look he can create enough to be a #2, then one of the Villanova boys (probably Hart) is going to be on the move.
There are plenty of moves still possible. It gets trickier if you want to keep the Villanova boys all together, but it can be done. In poker terms, there are still “outs”. We aren’t drawing dead.
That didn’t really happen last year with OG and part-Mitch. Philly’s playoff ORat was identical to their regular season one in a playoff environment where league average ORat dropped by 1.7. And Embiid was hobbled in the series.
I doubt Mikal closes that gap much.
Generally speaking big picture, put whatever rationalization on it one chooses, but the Knicks playoff defense was quite a bit worse last year than the year before, when they were first in the entire association.
The Knicks already did the “let’s put together a defense that will be awesome in the playoffs” thing. They changed it up from that. Didn’t really work.
I’d rather trade Winner than Randle. The Nova corps is not unbreakable.
The parts that now have to be thrown overboard is going to be a big theme of the offseason and season. And next offseason.
It’s really not that iHart is so great.
It’s that 48 minutes of Sims and Hukporti at C just entered the chat.
The NBA Finals was Horford & Porzingis vs Gafford & Lively. It’s a pretty solid way to build a team.
I’m not sure this is true at all. This season without Randall from Feb 1st the knicks were a busted ass 31 footer or a hammy tweak from reaching the conference final.
I’m not advocating a Randle for Allen swap (the CAVs would have to add Dean Wade or two smaller salaries to make the money work) but we didn’t have Randle anyway in these past playoffs, and Allen for IHart is a fine swap, and then we are adding Bridges on top of that, so I believe that roster is much stronger than what we just ran out there at any time in the playoffs. I don’t think any of us were happy looking down the barrel of extending Randle 4 years at +/- 45M/yr
Would I like it better with Randle, IHart AND Bridges…. of course, but that isn’t possible, and in hindsight if someone was willing to give him 58M for two years it was never possible.
No to trading Donte or Randle.
OG at the 5 seems interesting, but I guess that would be mostly reserved for playoff time against bench players.
I think we have to move Randle at some point anyway so moving him for a center that is probably better than IHart and also younger and less injury prone seems like a good move.
I know many of you are convinced that Randle is the answer as Brunsonās #2 but I am not there. He is a poor defender, isnāt great at stretching the floor, and as he ages and gets even more reliant on his outside game he will lose much of his value especially once we are paying him $40 million a year.
If Randle isn’t the #2, they don’t have one and we’re going to be right back here in a year or two chasing another missing part, this time shot creation.
Randle made 218 threes his last full season, he stretches the floor enough.
Yeah but I’m not putting Jalen-Brunson-compares-favorably-to-Michael-Jordan-in-the-playoffs down as something I expect to happen every year.
We could have easily lost to Philadelphia, and we didn’t look very convincing going up 2-0 against Indiana.
And all that was with Josh Hart shooting over 40% from three! Which is another thing we can’t bank on happening every year.
This team, IMHO, really needs Julius Randle. Donte and Hart are far more expendable.
I have my concerns with Randle in the playoffs. It’s very clear he can perform at an all star level in the regular season. With Allen, the shot creation issues will be a daily topic post Randle trade.
Doesn’t it matter what comes back in return? Why are they exempt?
That’s exactly where I am in this snapshot, but let’s see what else they do. They aren’t finished.
I think Randle is probably around 50-50 to be gone at the deadline if they think they need to upgrade C. Some of that is contingent on what Mikal Bridges shows us. IMO, he was underutilized on the Suns as the #3 or #4 option, but the Nets tried to make him a #1 and he’s not that either. That’s probably why they willing to trade him. They need a #1 option. We need a #2 option. If he shows enough creation ability to be considered a #2 for us, Randle is probably gone. I think he was the #2 option at Villanova.
I think this is my Plan B. Don’t know if it’s enough, though.
– A re-signed Alec Burks
– Deuce McBride
– The Detroit pick
– The Washington pick
– Brooklyn’s 2025 2nd rounder
For Wendell Carter Jr
So the Thunder are winning 65 games next year, huh?
The obvious most valuable yet redundant player is Donte. I am not sure we’d break up the Nova core, but on his contract he is a very enticing piece. If we’re going to get a good center, that’s the path. Trading Randle is madness.
Yeah, sorry, if it is for Jokic it is ok.
In all seriousness, because I dont think there is an available C good enough for that trade to work for us, because I consider Mitch to be really good for us and will give us 28 min every night, because in the playoffs we can use Randle or OG at the 5 against the opposing bench player, because I believe there will be a C serviceable enough for us to find in the market without trading any of our core players.
And I very much would like to see Brunson, Donte, Bridges, OG and Randle playing at the same time at some point.
Absent injuries or another major move now or at the deadline by someone else, imo they are the clear cut favorite coming out of the west. They added two perfect pieces, expect significant internal upside, Denver got weaker, and no one else out west took a leap.
lmao, I’m going to file a bar association complaint against you for shamelessness
Just checked the 24 best Centers of the previous season to find us a good one
Meh…
I d prefer signing a totally unknown PassFirst Jugoslavian Center to back up Mitch than trade Randle for most of them
I mean How Hard is to find a poor man’s JokicNurkicVucevicesque Backup C nowadays?
In basketball terms, breaking up the Villanova crew should clearly be on the table. But in terms of the locker room, I’m less sure what that does to the team chemistry.
As far as Randle goes, I’ve been saying for long time his impact on winning is less than the boxscore suggests. He’s not a good defender, he’s a ball stopper, and he’s not a high IQ player I think the playoffs added even more evidence to that argument. We finished the season great and were an OG injury away from the conference finals without him.
Josh Hart gave us the rebounding and playmaking he normally gives us and we got the missing scoring by Brunson upping his usage and committee. We can’t count on Brunson playing like that every night. But now that we added Mikal Bridges, we have another scoring option.
IMO we would NOT miss Randle all that much.
It won’t be that difficult to find a C that’s enough an upgrade to make us a better overall team even if we lose Randle because we have very good rebounders and secondary playmakers elsewhere.
I would not get too freaked out by the center situation yet. Losing Hart really sucks. Over the course of last season he was probably our second most impactful player. We’re going into next year with a very different team than the one we finished last season with, and the FO should proably give them some time to play before they trade Randle or Donte or whoever.
Trading Randle to get a “modern” center that usually gets 10p 10r and a few assists while shits his pants on the FT Line ain’t exactly my preferred method of upgrading but…You Never Know what might actually work!
IHart was top 15 in EPM. We all watched him all season long. He was an absolute beast. We arenāt replacing him in whole.
Just going to take a wait and see approach and hope in Leon we can trust.
Yeah, even Mitch is going to be a step down if he stays healthy most of the year. But on the other hand we have a healthy Randle, OG and Mikal
I have doubts Randle is willing to commit to being the version of himself that we need him to be, and I worry that as he gets older heāll attack the basket less and less and thatās a lot of his value on offense. Plus heās going to need a huge raise that we probably canāt give him without being stuck in salary cap heāll.
He also is inconsistent in his approach. When he is making fast decisions and attacking the basket and focusing on defense he is very very good. But when he is settling for outside shots, getting cute with the ball, or too busy bitching about a bad call to play defense he stops being a good player.
Allen is one of the few moves where we get similar win-now value for him in a trade. And vice versa, Randle is one of the only trades I can see Cleveland doing that can get good them good win now value for Allen.
IHart grabbed his opportunity, played the basket of his life last season and earned his economic security for life. Happy for him.
Neeeext!
Allen is a lot better than you all are giving him credit for. He just turned 26 and per/36 averaged:
18.7pts/12.0rebs/3.1asts/2.0stocks with a 74%FT% and shot over 50% from 10-16 feet the last two years so he has some potential to add range.
He would be a potential upgrade at center and every bit as valuable as Randle.
The big advantage that the Nova Knicks gives us is players that are willing to do what it takes even if it means coming off the bench and they play the right way. That is not always a given and a big reason they hold more value than just their baseline talent. For that reason and their team friendly contracts mean Iād move Randle way before any of them.
I’ve been saying he’s going to OKC for big money even before the playoffs started. Its a no brainer and Presti is no sucker.
OKC is unbelievable. Stacked with elite two way players. Adding a 3+ BPM & EPM, WS .200+ player to a 57 win team is just not fair. This is nearly on the same level as KD to Warriors, mathematically + FIT. They’ll be flirting with 70+ wins and best regular season team ever.
We can not replace iHart in the aggregate. Goga will do OK in drop coverage and protecting the rim, JB never hits the roll man so playing above rim or mid range floaters are not as important as offenive rebounding.
The season is on Mitch’s wheels, now.
Shooting 74.2% for the season is shitting in his pants? IHart shot 70.7 this season.
Celtics owners giving away someone else’s money like candy
#Shooting 74.2% for the season is shitting in his pants? IHart shot 70.7 this season#
I wasn’t shooting on Jarret Allen but on most new Centers that don’t have the talent to be Jokic or the determination to be dominant in the paint or the patience to constantly upgrade their game…
They seem ok with a big contract and give you their 10/10/3 without caring much…
Jarret Allen seems pretty cool and pretty soft imo
I’d suggest More Gym
For next season’s team with Bridges and a healthy Randle I think Mitch’s superior defense and rebounding is more important than iHart’s passing. Mitch on one leg was more impactful defensively in the playoffs than iHart.
The obvious issue is Mitch’s health but how quickly we forget what he did in the 2023 playoffs compared to iHart.
Boston has some of the craziest contracts in the league, every starter makes 30m+, and it somehow works.
Aaaaand Goga is gone.
If you’re a Hardcore Knicks fan Like Most If Not All in here are Then you can’t ignore the fact that you SAW Mitch and Randle Kicking Ass for Long Periods before getting injured.
You don’t WISH that they May Play Well.
You’ve SEEN It Happening.
Fearing that they might get injured or have a nervous breakdown or a midcareer crisis is legit..
But tearing down the Team in case of any of the above happening is like Sixers trading Embiid away because of injury fears.
Moe Wagner will work
Barring a trade Knicks will probably just bring Precious back.
It’s gogover
jawohl
Really flies in the face of “this front office is prepared for everything.”
I like Udoka Azubuikeā¦ Moses Brown can playā¦ Luke Kornet (remember him?)
Any of these UFAs and more can still be signed and become a decent backup.
Don’t panic. It is far more important to get everyone (everyone!) healthy than to sign a backup center to start the season. Let the new roster gel. See what’s up with Mitch/Sims/Precious/Hukporti. It’s a long season.
Kornet already just re-signed with the Celtics yesterday.
My Kondom for a BackUp Horse!
Or maybe this front office realizes backup Center isn’t exactly the catastrophe that some here are trying to make it out to be just so they can continue to have something to complain about.
https://www.mercurynews.com/2024/07/01/kurtenbach-klay-thompson-is-gone-and-the-warriors-situation-has-gone-from-bad-to-worse/ it’s bad in Dub Nation
Ehh itās not just ābackup centerā that weāre worried about. You really canāt count on Mitchell Robinson to play more than like 1500 minutes, and you really donāt want Mitch on the floor at the end of games because he canāt make a free throw. We need somebody to play those other 2400 minutes and a center who is not a sub-Shaq FT shooter to close out games.
Itās a pretty significant problem.
Too bad on Goga, does make you wonder whatās gonna happen with Wagnerā¦
Overall, I agree with whoever said weāll probably have a different look in general next season that de-emphasizes the traditional center position compared to yearsā past.
This, basically: https://x.com/benritholtznba/status/1807908776516681905?s=46&t=lSgB_Y82ThYZg2DjRoVHNA
So Iām not sweating itā¦yet. I still think we need another traditional-ish center of borderline starter quality.
We can get a backup center.
Problem is we’re all in and a player short.
Tatum 5 years $314 million
How many years before we see our first $100 million/year contract?
How about Josh Nebo of Maccabi? Heās a bit undersized but rebounds like a madman and can pass, hit floaters, etc.
Or see if Hukporti can win the job, heās been a pro in Europe for two years.
I wonder what the Bulls are doing. Vucevic wouldn’t work if you needed a defensive anchor, but we don’t with all the wing defense. On offense he does iHart stuff except better, mostly. Since they dealt Caruso and are desperate to unload Levine, seems like a teardown could be in the offing….I just don’t know what we could give up that wouldn’t hurt us.
Any chance it’s time for this guy? Maybe Thins can coach him up, starting with telling him that if he ever attempts a 3-pointer he will be immediately sent to the G-League…
“Maybe Thins can coach him up, starting with telling him that if he ever attempts a 3-pointer he will be immediately sent to the G-Leagueā¦”
An unfortunate (but humorous) typographical error, for sure.
I canāt believe Dallas gave up Green for Thompson. Thatās a step down and why in the world wouldnāt the Warriors have wanted him. What an absolute steal for the Hornets.
Ex Knick Quentin Grimes will replace Green if healthy
Thompson replaces Ex Knick Tim Hardaway Jr and he’s a perfect fit next to a ball dominant Luka on offense. He will get plenty of open looks from 3.
Just curious – what’s the most we can offer a free agent like Goga? He signed for 3/25 – could we have exceeded that or are we capped out?
I’m not a big Thompson fan. IMO he has lost a step on offense and multiple steps on defense, but he can still shoot. Dallas needs more of a 3rd option that can space the floor better and hit the 3 even when guarded. Green is a lower usage player. His role will be replaced by a healthy Grimes. I’m back to thinking Dallas may have some issues on defense with this move. Thompson doesn’t defend like he used to.
Haven’t really talked about this from Hartenstein’s POV yet…
I’m genuinely surprised he accepted what is essentially a 2 year, $60MM deal. He must know the Thunder will most likely kick him to the curb before year 3 when it’s time to sign Chet and Jalen.
If he trusted his tendon, he would have probably made considerably more money doing the one year wink wink deal with us. And if he doesn’t trust his tendon, well, he may not be around to cash in in two years.
The taxpayer MLE is 2/10, Tastycakes. We maybe could have worked some magic with part of the NTMLE but that was the only straightforward offer we could have made.
We only have access to the taxpayer mid-level exception of a little over $5 mil/year, and we only have all of that money if we can avoid being hard-capped at the first apron. We also have access to the $6.8 million trade exception from when we sent Obi to Indiana. So in theory, we could get another team to send such a player into that exception in exchange for a pick, or the draft rights to Rokas, or whatever. And that could include a sign-and-trade. But that’s still not as much money as Goga got from Orlando.
I’m pretty sure we could have exceeded that if we made the same moves that were required for us to give I-Hart the contract we offered him. We may still do something with that Bridges deal.
I’m really confused at this point.
The Knicks allowed plenty of potential targets at C to get scooped up even though everyone knew they were in big danger of losing I-Hart after the big contract than went to Claxton.
Either they still have something up their sleeves that we don’t know about, they are asleep at the wheel, or they’ve decided to go into the season with some combination of Mitch, Precious, Simms and the draft pick and potentially address the C issue at the deadline.
Kind of shocking how bad Wiseman has been thus far in his career. Like, he should be able to accidentally block at least one shot a gameā¦
That’s probably an underrated issue.
He had the same issue for two seasons. It could very well be chronic and limit his minutes. That may not matter to OKC who might use him for limited minutes anyway, but it could have been an issue for us. We need a C that can handle the starting role and play 35 minutes. It was a luxury to have both him and Mitch.
People seem to believe that trading for Bridges caused us to lose iHart, but the two are unrelated. Given what OKC offered, iHart was gone no matter what. If anything Bridges compensates for his loss.
We could not have, Strat. We only had the ability to offer iHart as much as we did because we had his Early Bird rights. Any outside free agents have to either come into cap space, of which we have none, or into the exceptions we have access to, which are the taxpayer mid-level and a couple of trade exceptions, one of which is also around the taxpayer mid-level, one of which is the $6.8 mil I mentioned earlier.
Strat, we could only offer iHart that money because we had early bird rights on him, we can’t offer that same money to a free agent.
Edit: Or what Alan said! š
This seems a reasonable guess. I wanted to sign him, but knew there was a non-0 chance he’d blow out an Achilles and we’d lose him for a year.
Correct. A lack of foresight two years ago caused us to lose iHart. His departure was etched in stone the moment Mitch got hurt and he started to play well. That’s why at least one person here predicted he’d be on the Thunder as far back as January (and I almost nailed the exact deal, too; I said 3/75 at the time, it’s 3/87).
I believe he didn’t want to sign a long term deal two years ago, he wasn’t making much money and though he had a good opportunity to showcase himself here? I could be misremembering though.
I thought if we included extra contracts into the Bridges deal we lowered our salary enough to get the larger exception.
I don’t really care how we got here. I just want a solution where we sign a free-agent cromulent center that we can now pay and do not have to give up anything to get. (Wow, seems like the draft might have been a good way to do that!)
I’ve been on Team Leon Optimism, putting my faith in the idea that the cadre in the front office is too smart to have been caught off guard by this and not have a Plan B. In fact, it has been written in many places that they probably knew a few days ago that iHart was out the door. If that’s the case, wouldn’t we have heard something today? My faith is wavering, but I hope that I am wrong and am instead just being impatient.
Not targeting a C in the draft and picking this particular moment to invest a first round pick in an eighteen year old developmental wing doesnāt make a lot of sense to me. I donāt know if there was some magical thinking that led them to believe Hartenstein was returning, but itās not looking like thereās much of a backup plan now that todayās dust has settled.
JK which C did you have in mind?
You may be right.
I don’t think we should be blaming management for not knowing that Mitch would get hurt so often and I-Hart would flourish in a larger role. They got a good look at I-Hart in a Clipper’s uniform and gave him a deal based on what was known at that time.
At that point, we were pretty sure Mitch was our C of the future and he was the backup. Mitch may still be the C of the future, but all the injuries have clearly hampered his development and raised risks for the future.
You can’t improve your handle, FTs, range, or passing if you are constantly under the knife, in a boot, or can only swim for conditioning. I’m not convinced we’ve seen his best yet. He’s only 25. KP had similar chronic injury issues that delayed development and he peaked this year at 28. If he can stay healthy (other than occasional day to day stuff), he still might expand his game. I was more willing to move him if I-Hart was here to stay, but now we are relying on him to develop.
Is Orlando not resigning Wagner? He would be a fine backup, but does not seem to be in their price range if Goga got what he got.
Right now it looks like plan A was to hope to get I-Hart back and plan B was to go with Mitch/Simms (and maybe Precious) and a 22 year old rookie from Germany we don’t know much about and to address the C position at the deadline if Mitch is having injury issues again. Maybe the rookie can play. He’s 22 and was in a pro league.
Drafting Hukporti signals a change of thinking. I-Hartās weak-ass offense in the Indiana series was never going to get it done. How are you going to beat the Celtics with Horford extending bigs to the perimeter while your little teardrops net you 6 points a game. A physical, inside pounding center paired with a healthy Randle could win a war of attrition. This is my team optimism outlook. Or Leon really blew this big time.
Seriously, I would love to acquire Bamba on a minimum make-good deal. He’s a NYC kid with crazy measurables. Why not waste a roster spot on him rather than a Jeffries or Toppin?
A trade up for Missi might have been possible. Filipowski seems like he would have been a reasonable risk. Ighodaro isnāt a great prospect but is probably already a better player than Sims. There were a few options.
I’ll shift to team optimism later when the season starts. But I’ll give you a spoiler:
I may not buy all this “Leon always has a plan” wish casting, but I think Leon’s a really great improviser.
Alan, who is that show runner you always talk about who isn’t afraid to write himself into a corner because he’s confident he can get out of it?
That’s Leon. Things look bleak, then he hits a pinch-hit grand slam home run in the middle of the season (the Rose trade, the Hart trade, the OG trade). Somehow he’ll do that again.
And if I had to guess it will somehow be Deandre Ayton, who I don’t love, but I suspect would inexplicably blossom under our wing.
That’s Vince Gilligan from Breaking Bad and Better Call Saul. Though it’s less about him not being afraid as it is him being terrible at planning. He’s just insanely talented, and in the area of getting out of corners most of all.
I’m getting the suspicion they think Hukporti can play.
He has an interesting history. He played the 21-22 season in Australia (Melbourne) and off that entered the NBA draft. He decided he wasn’t ready and went back to Melbourne.
He tore his Achilles Tendon in the 2nd game of the 22-23 season and sat the year out.
He returned to Melbourne and posted per 36 numbers 16.5 pts/ 13.8 rebounds / 2.9 blocks. Supposedly the Knicks worked him out pre draft before the 22 draft.
I’m interested in watching the summer league in 2 weeks…
just some cap wonkery points of clarification because i sense confusion:
1. you can use the full mle even if you are over the tax as we currently are. but it hard caps you at the first apron, so you can only use the portion of it that brings you up to the first apron.
2. you can only use the taxpayer mle if it brings you over the first apron. so you cannot use it if you are capped at the first apron by, say, taking in more than you send out in a trade (the mikal trade before amendments). and you cannot optionally use it stay below the first apron.
3. you can only use a prior season traded player exception if you stay under the first apron. so if you use the taxpayer mle, your traded player exceptions from the prior year disappear.
JK, I see the logic in it, but in reality, I don’t think any of those prospects solves the issue any more than a vet’s minimum guy or our #58 pick.
This is really more of a “here and now” problem. Guys are going to shake loose.
I think it’s simpler than we are making it.
They wanted I-Hart back, but like Jazzfunk said, he is not some star C that’s irreplaceable. All the names that were being floated around are not starting level Cs.
So again, I’m guessing plan A was I-Hart and plan B was Mitch and them looking for a legitimate starting C at the trade deadline if that’s not working (unless they are still working on something behind the scenes).
One thing these guys do is target specific players for specific positions/roles.
They know what they want at each position and go for it.
They targeted Brunson – Check
They targeted OG – Check
They targeted Mikal – Check
J-Hart and DDV are also players they wanted.
They have someone (or a couple of people) in mind at C but it’s not Drummond, Valanciunas, Goga, Plumlee, Bamba, Biyambo etc..
Next up is the trade deadline.
I think that how you feel about things right now is about how much faith you have in this FO to find value on the margins. I think they have been pretty good at it recently. But it’s definitely a big test right now.
If we amend the Bridges deal and send more money, will that add to how much we can use to sign another player?
If we amend the Bridges deal and send more money, will that add to how much we can use to sign another player?
yes, but due to the dollars more than avoiding the first apron hard cap that comes with the bridges trade as is. if we sent out more salary we would be farther under the first apron and thus have room to use more of the full mle. currently we only have around $5mm or so to use of the full mle, so sending out more would give us more room for every dollar of space created.
adjusting the bridges trade might also avoid the first apron hard cap, but if we used the space via the full mle or a traded player exception from last year we’d hard capped all over again.
That’s exactly how I see Leon. I think he’s terrible at planning; but man is he good as swinging those mid-season trades. That’s his talent.
Ayton, Kessler, Poeltl, Carter, Capela… somehow he will end up with one of these guys, and they will be a perfect fit.
I see Leon Rose as the grim reaper of pessimism!
You need to try hard and pass the borders of surrealism to whine about the knicks lately.
And all this sneaky turnaround without any draft luck or superstar preference.
Like it or not Rose turned the chronic knicks shitty situation to a respectable and highly competitive future.
Waiting patiently for his next chess move
Totally random but didn’t Strat used to have a moniker like “Stratomatic says Mikal Bridges and Mitchell Robinson will lead the Knicks to the promised land” or something?
He gave the optimist a team of grit
While turned the pessimist into Magritte
I like Allen, and the Randle trade idea is probably a reasonably good one (I say probably, because nothing about Randle is ever definite ā heās gotta be one of the most sustainably inconsistent performers the league has seen).
The weird thing to me is that if Allen is available, why wouldāt Presti get him with some of the asset pile heās sitting on? Allen is a lot cheaper, and better. Heās like 120/60 of Hartenstein. All those future picks are great to look at and all, but he canāt them with him.
Randle hasn’t been good in the playoffs, but his regular season performance has been solid for the Knicks. 2 time All NBA player and 2x All Star.
I also remember when Jarrett Allen got destroyed by Mitchell Robinson in the playoffs.
I just donāt think anyone wouldāve predicted two years ago that someone would think IHart would eventually be worth about 30mil/year. I donā didnāt even see anywhere this past week where heād get that much: the most I read was 25mil/yr.
Hate to lose him, but you cannot turn down that kind of money.
Anyone still think OG was an overpay now? š
I feel good about the team and Leon Rose. Yeah, I’m putting on those Rose colored glasses. This is how it could be a good thing.
I always thought iHart was gone. He just got too good and the friggin new CBA rules screwed us. Why is there a limit on a Bird contract? Bird rights were meant to allow teams to retain players they developed. Call it the Bird Crap rule.
I’m as confused as a drunk running through Times Square naked in January about the apron rules but I think the Knicks will be under 1st apron rules when all is said and done.
The roster looks like this today:
C: Mitch, Sims, Hukporti
PF: Randle, Dadiet
SF: OG. Hart, McCullar
SG: Bridges, DiVincenzo,
PG: Brunson, McBride, Kolek
That’s 13 players. What’s missing? PF and C. My guess the Knicks have $15M to play with. I suggest resigning Achiuwa as the #1 priority and I would take a flyer, if cheap as hell, on Wiseman.
We all forget that Wiseman has the physical tools. Hey, you don’t get drafted 2nd overall if you didn’t have the tools. Yeah, he doesn’t play defense. A better way to say that is that he doesn’t know how to play defense. I think Thibs can teach him. I think he’s worth a dart throw.
I’m waiting very *impatiently* for the next chess move.
I don’t like “they’ll address it at the trade deadline” *at all*. We’re 50 games into the regular season at the trade deadline. I want to be able to run a “whole team” out there at the beginning of November.
I think Ayton could work, but he’d have to do a lot of work to shed his reputation of “low motor,” “takes plays off,” etc. that he has right now. Thibs obviously don’t play dat. I could live with Ayton for sure, but not if Thibs won’t play him. Ditto for Wiseman, who I want even less. For the second overall pick, he’s pretty much a bust. And I think it’s even *less* likely that Thibs would give him any minutes than it is for Ayton.
And for the love of G-d and all that is holy, it’s Jericho *Sims*, not Simms. This has been a public service announcement from your friendly neighborhood Doogie. š
Just looking at the big guys from Villanova squad. Any idea where Dylan Painter is?
Also; tastycakes, you are a god amongst men. thank you
I hope Sims works like crazy this summer and gets better since he is now our second string center.
And quite possibly our starting center, at some point. I have more faith in him than most, but still I’d like a better option.
Dylan Painter is playing in Europe. Sign Arcidiacono back, too.
I thought that the Knicks had a real chance at keeping iHart once he didn’t automatically accept the OKC offer, but I guess as it turns out, he HAD accepted it right away, and just waited until later to announce it. That’s too bad.
Spitballing to reduce Center anxiety: Kevan Looney?
Warriors guaranteed his contract. They’re likely going to trade him (presumably in a package for another player to help match salaries), but at $8 million, I don’t think he fits here.
Bo, we’d have to trade for Looney, since the Warriors guaranteed his contract. He doesn’t fit into any of our exceptions, and the only salary we have on the books who would work under the cap is Donte, and… no.
Aha. Thought we could do some Aller-nastics and include the Dubs in the Nets trade.