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Knicks Morning News (2023.12.26)


  • NBA Christmas Day scores, takeaways: Luka Doncic deserves more MVP buzz; Knicks’ Jalen Brunson dissects Bucks – CBS Sports
    [CBS Sports] – Tue, 26 Dec 2023 07:37:00 GMT
    1. NBA Christmas Day scores, takeaways: Luka Doncic deserves more MVP buzz; Knicks’ Jalen Brunson dissects Bucks
    2. Stats rundown: 3 stats to know from the Dallas Mavericks Christmas Day win over the Phoenix Suns, 128-114
    3. Luka Doncic becomes 6th-youngest and 7th-fastest to score 10000 career points
    4. Suns show signs of life vs. Mavs before same story in 4th quarter
    5. NBA Christmas 2023: Doni pours in 50 as Mavs burn Suns; Celtics top Lakers


  • Angel Reese gets celebrity row treatment during Knicks’ Christmas win over Bucks – New York Post
    [New York Post] – Mon, 25 Dec 2023 23:29:00 GMT

    Angel Reese gets celebrity row treatment during Knicks’ Christmas win over Bucks


  • Knicks’ Brunson has 38 in ‘special’ win over Bucks – ESPN
    [ESPN] – Mon, 25 Dec 2023 21:36:00 GMT
    1. Knicks’ Brunson has 38 in ‘special’ win over Bucks
    2. Jalen Brunson gifts reminder of elite ability on Christmas Day
    3. Bucks vs. Knicks Final Score & Summary
    4. Christmas Day NBA Bucks vs. Knicks odds, line, spread: 2023 NBA picks, predictions from proven model
    5. Brunson scores 38, Knicks snap Bucks’ seven-game winning streak with 129-122 victory


  • 50 Cent, Chris Rock, John Legend and Chrissy Teigen lead the stars on MSG’s Celebrity Row as the New York Knic – Daily Mail
    [Daily Mail] – Mon, 25 Dec 2023 21:08:58 GMT

    50 Cent, Chris Rock, John Legend and Chrissy Teigen lead the stars on MSG’s Celebrity Row as the New York Knic


  • Taj Gibson gives Knicks ‘energy’ in finding big role vs. Bucks – New York Post
    [New York Post] – Tue, 26 Dec 2023 00:30:00 GMT

    Taj Gibson gives Knicks ‘energy’ in finding big role vs. Bucks


  • RJ Barrett shakes off struggles to drive key Knicks win – New York Post
    [New York Post] – Mon, 25 Dec 2023 23:34:00 GMT
    1. RJ Barrett shakes off struggles to drive key Knicks win
    2. Knicks Notes: Barrett, Bucks, Brunson, D. Murray
    3. RJ Barrett puts up another dud as Knicks take loss to Bucks
    4. Knicks’ RJ Barrett’s shooting slump continues vs. Bucks
    5. There’s no reason for Knicks to lose faith in RJ Barrett amid ugly shooting slump


  • 2023 NBA Christmas Day: Lakers, Knicks lead all-time stats – ESPN
    [ESPN] – Mon, 25 Dec 2023 15:00:00 GMT
    1. 2023 NBA Christmas Day: Lakers, Knicks lead all-time stats
    2. NBA on Christmas Day: Key questions, top players, big matchups
    3. Ranking the NBA’s Christmas games: Why Celtics-Lakers, Warriors-Nuggets top the holiday slate
    4. NFL Christmas Monday schedule: TV channels, how to watch Week 16 games
    5. NBA on Christmas Day: Results from every game … ever


  • Dom Amore: UConn’s Andre Jackson Jr. a ‘prototype’ fit with Bucks, NBA – Hartford Courant
    [Hartford Courant] – Mon, 25 Dec 2023 22:09:20 GMT

    Dom Amore: UConn’s Andre Jackson Jr. a ‘prototype’ fit with Bucks, NBA


  • How will the Milwaukee Bucks celebrate Christmas in New York? – Milwaukee Journal Sentinel
    [Milwaukee Journal Sentinel] – Mon, 25 Dec 2023 11:02:38 GMT

    How will the Milwaukee Bucks celebrate Christmas in New York?


  • Forgotten New York Knicks star who scored 60 points in Christmas Day game reveals his diet of milkshake a… – The US Sun
    [The US Sun] – Mon, 25 Dec 2023 13:00:00 GMT

    Forgotten New York Knicks star who scored 60 points in Christmas Day game reveals his diet of milkshake a…


  • 50 Cent & Fat Joe Spend Christmas Day Together Courtside Watching New York Knicks – HipHopDX
    [HipHopDX] – Mon, 25 Dec 2023 22:45:58 GMT

    50 Cent & Fat Joe Spend Christmas Day Together Courtside Watching New York Knicks


  • Milwaukee Bucks Star Giannis Antetokounmpo’s Message After Brutal Knicks Loss – Wisconsin Sports Heroics
    [Wisconsin Sports Heroics] – Tue, 26 Dec 2023 01:46:25 GMT

    Milwaukee Bucks Star Giannis Antetokounmpo’s Message After Brutal Knicks Loss


  • Milwaukee Bucks vs New York Knicks – December 25, 2023 – FOX Sports
    [FOX Sports] – Mon, 25 Dec 2023 20:46:47 GMT

    Milwaukee Bucks vs New York Knicks – December 25, 2023


  • Knicks Remain Interested in Raptors All-Defensive Wing: Report – Heavy.com
    [Heavy.com] – Mon, 25 Dec 2023 18:32:57 GMT
    1. Knicks Remain Interested in Raptors All-Defensive Wing: Report
    2. Scotto’s Latest: Raptors, Pacers, Hawks, Markkanen, Hornets, More
    3. TRADE RUMOURS: Knicks interested in Anunoby, Siakam destinations and more
    4. Raptors Rumors: NBA Execs See Pascal Siakam Trade as More Likely Than OG Anunoby Deal
    5. Raptors Continue To Explore Trade Market, Who’s Available?


  • New York Knicks vs. Milwaukee Bucks: live game updates, stats, play-by-play – Yahoo Sports
    [Yahoo Sports] – Tue, 26 Dec 2023 06:22:43 GMT

    New York Knicks vs. Milwaukee Bucks: live game updates, stats, play-by-play

  • 137 replies on “Knicks Morning News (2023.12.26)”

    Looks like i missed a fantastic game, given that we’re talking about Knicks players and MVP candidates in the same conversation. 😀

    Enjoying this first Christmas with my son. Made even sweeter by a Knicks win today.

    That’s great, CDiggy, enjoy! 😉 And i hope everybody else had a happy Christmas too! ☺️

    New York vs Milwaukee W 129-122 Record 17-12

    Well, this is exactly the kind of game I needed, a nice well played win against a full-lineup contender* where everyone makes something useful.

    And it was easier than the score shows, the Knicks took the lead midway through the 1st quarter, ignited by Brunson (15 points) and Barrett (14) and never reliquished it.

    The Bucks, who finally had a bad shooting day against us, cut the lead to 4 in the middle of the 3rd but Josh Hart (8 points, 4-4 FG) and a nice string of free throws helped Brunson (9 points, 4 assists) restore a double digit lead going into the 4th and while Milwaukee stayed often in single-digit range they never really threatened.

    Next: OKC on wednesday, first of 3 games (including a B2B) to close 2023.

    THOUGHTS:
    – This is Jalen Brunson’s team and it has been since last year.
    Now it looks like our All-NBA has finally agreed (or made peace with).
    We’re a better team when Julius understand that being the second option makes him a better, more efficient, more useful, less volatile player.
    And he can still have his nuclear moments where he steamrolls over everyone.

    – We killed them in the paint, not only at the rim. JB, IQ and even J-Hart exploited the “soft” in-between part of their defense with floaters and short midrange shots.

    – Eye test (and later a quick check 😉 ) we did a better job closing out on corner threes. The bucks took only 9 of those shots (and shot 2-9, it was 10-14 two days before).

    – All our players did something to help, but Grimes’ 12 minutes is a thing to watch going on.

    – The win assured us a winning record entering 2024 no matter what happens in the last 3 games. Nice.

    STATSOF THE GAME:
    72-50. Knicks’ huge edge in PITP.

    23-12. Knicks’ advantage in Fastbreak Points.

    GRADES

    Brunson A
    He owns the Bucks.. and this team. 38 efficient points, 6:0 AST:TO. I hope he gets an All-Star nod this year.

    Randle B
    Stronger as the game went on. Solid, engaged on defense (playing against Giannis helps).

    Barrett B-
    An “A” first half (18, 8-13 FG, 4 Rebs) a “C-” invisible 2nd (0-1 FG, 2 TOs). The full “RJ Barrett Experience” in a single game.

    Di Vincenzo C
    Bad shooting night (1-6) but 4 assists.

    Hartenstein B+
    Another strong game (11/8/4). His 4th foul** could’ve been a turning point but Taj hold the fort well.

    Quickley A
    Exploded in the 2nd half. Why only 22 minutes?

    Hart A-
    He has moments when he looks like a videogame with the burst button always on.

    Gibson B
    The way he stymied Giannis on consecutive possesions in the 2nd quarter, with guile, experience and smartness, is something Sims (and many others) must look to.

    Grimes C
    Slowly slipping to the end of the bench, but I’m pretty sure he’ll have his chances in the upcoming games, now it’s up to him to show something.

    Thibs A-
    He asked for a reaction and got it, the energy level was totally different. Reducing Grimes minutes is understandable, to me IQ still played less minutes than he deserved, but we won, broke the streak against the Bucks and he did a good job.

    * Maybe the Bucks were punch drunk after two days in Babylon and took us lightly, reassured by their 22-7 record and the the repeated beatings they gave us. But it doesn’t matter.

    ** His 3rd foul, a Giannis And-1, was a refs’ joke.

    I do think you can build a true contender with Brunson as your 1A, and I think one just has to look at Minnesota for the blueprint. They’ve built a contender around Anthony Edwards, and I don’t think anyone would suggest he’s out of Brunson’s league.

    You start with Mitch as the backbone of an elite defense, and you surround Brunson and Mitch with size and shooting (i.e. the opposite of our current strategy).

    Imagine OG & Mikal Bridges, for instance, as your wings, with someone like Jalen Johnson at the 4 providing elite defense and floor spacing.

    Have fun scoring against that team, or stopping Brunson when there’s three guys on the floor who can shoot.

    Nice recap, Max! I’d probably bump DDV’s grade up a bit…I thought his D was very instrumental.

    One thing I’ve recently noticed (and Dame remarked on it) is that we seem to be pushing the ball in transition more than we have previously under Thibs. I remarked on it during the first IST game vs. the Bucks, it was so stark in that game that it looked like we ran out of gas at the end…but since then, we’ve been running out quite a bit, so hopefully that will continue.

    Ouch!
    You’re right Z-Man,
    DDV was a “C+” (to me he was better on defense than Grimes and I gave Grimes a “C”), but it got lost copying and pasting multiple times between Word and here (I don’t trust internet when writing long posts)… 🙁

    And I agree we are trying to run more, even Julius is leaking more often and getting more fastbreak points…

    Re: Brunson

    Hubie, if I understand it well you’re suggesting a “post 3-point revolution” version of the Detroit Pistons (even if Hamilton, their worst defender, was a better defender than Brunson).
    Should be fun.

    I was thinking more like the current Minnesota Timberwolves than the old Detroit Pistons.

    If you swapped out Conley and Edwards for Brunson & OG, that team is still a contender, and Brunson is the 1A.

    I got a little carried away with my Brunson in the MVP discussion comment yesterday , but I don’t think his impact on the Knicks can be overstated. Yesterday 38 points and 0 turnovers (despite having the ball in his hands basically the whole game) and he made every big shot down the stretch

    I don’t care if he’s a 1A or a 2 or whatever, he’s a superstar and very rootable and I’m really glad he’s a NY KnIck.

    Before Dec 1 Queta had zero double-doubles and now he has two. One was 10 pts and 10 rebs in 21 mins and the other was 14 pts and 12 rebs in 23 mins. He also shot 75% from the line in December on 12 FTA. Only one thing bugged me about his games in December… the Celtics won 6 of 7.

    quick look at the quickley/brunson minutes since they’ve played together. it’s 1322 minutes and 2660 possessions. net 3P% variance has been pretty modest at 34.5% nyk and 33.4% opponents.

    knicks have scored 121.7 / 100 and allowed 112.3 / 100 for a net of +9.5. nyk have made 27.1 rim fg plus corners 3s and opp have made 26.5 (per 100). nyk have 12.6 TO /100 and opp have 13.2. nyk have 30.6 fta /100 and opp have 24.6.

    Nice win for a lot of reasons not least because everyone was getting ready to publish their the Knicks can’t beat good teams article

    I think we have some similarities to the 2004 Pistons, but i don’t think we have the same chances. I think the competition (the good teams) are a lot better now than they were at that time. I’d say we have some chances to get to the ECF, and that would be amazing for what we had to endure this century. The Finals seem almost impossible and to win it is definitely impossible. I can review this if we improve the SG and/or SF positions. On the other three we’re good to go.

    I honestly think what we need is a good third option who is a two way player. Aka mikal bridges lol. But seriously offensively Brunson and Randle can match up with any top duos in the league. But defensively they have their weaknesses. But a solid and consistent third option who was also a good defensive player along with a center like iHart who is good defensively but has a little offensive game too…that’s as good of a starting five as any in the league. Throw in a solid bench with IQ as the 6th man and we could compete.

    You see how we win yesterday when RJ actually plays halfway decent? But I just can’t bet on him anymore turning the corner and doing that consistently.

    Do whatever it takes to get mikal. Tamper if you must! OG would be a nice second option.

    I mean seriously the nets are not doing anything. Give them lots of picks and RJ.

    We have a problem, the players that would fit like a glove are in Brooklyn, a team that won’t deal with us, and in Toronto, a team that we’re suing for whatever reason… does Dolan need an extra 10M? I don’t think so!
    Is there any other options to improve our team? Because we keep talking about Mikal and OG but that’s not going to happen. It’s more likely for us to grab Dejounte than those two.

    I hope everyone understands that everything that’s fantasized about the efficiency increase you can get from replacing Barrett, you can also get by replacing Randle.

    Randle is not an efficient offensive player, at least in the current structure. The fact that he’s not RJ levels of inefficiency is really neither here nor there. (Julius is currently 15 points in TS% above RJ, and a handful of points above his personal Knick career TS%, which is really no big deal.)

    There’s no reason to believe Mikal’s and OG’s TS% and 2PT% wouldn’t get turfed by Thibs’s structure, just like pretty much everyone who’s come to play for Thibs has seen happen.

    (NOTE: Here’s what these straightforward numerical statements are not:

    1. A defense of RJ Barrett.
    2. Any kind of detraction from yesterday’s nice win.)

    Oh, and i almost forgot, thanks for the recap, Max. I missed the game again, this time because it was a little too early and i was still in christmas mode playing board games with the family. 🎲🃏🀄

    We have a problem, the players that would fit like a glove are in Brooklyn, a team that won’t deal with us, and in Toronto, a team that we’re suing for whatever reason…

    Well… they’re also in the draft…

    I love how this site can go from ‘toss a little MVP love Brunson’s way’ (e.g., a fifth place vote or two) to ‘better or worse than Dirk’s winning year!’ in a NY minute.

    Just FYI, here’s Macri’s take on the topic:
    “At just over 26 a night, JB is 17th in the league in scoring, 11th since an up and down first seven games, and eighth in that time frame among players who have played at least 10 games.
    The seven that are higher: Embiid, Luka, SGA, Giannis, KD, Trae Young and De’Aaron Fox. All but Young, who plays for a losing team, are on everyone’s short or long list for MVP and are considered shoe-in All-Stars. Since November 8, among those eight, only Giannis is scoring at a more efficient clip than Brunson.”

    So, you know, not going to win. But a few toss-a-bone fifth-place votes? If he keeps this up, I could see it…

    I guess the real question is whether Macri is on the MVP voting panel. That will decided whether he gets a 5th place vote.

    There’s no reason to believe Mikal’s and OG’s TS% and 2PT% wouldn’t get turfed by Thibs’s structure, just like pretty much everyone who’s come to play for Thibs has seen happen.

    I’m waiting for pt to correct this, but I guess it’s below his pay grade.

    IMO, MVP candidates should be two way players. I would have a much shorter list of serious candidates than the press or fans. We beat one yesterday.

    When i first saw the moniker: Educate_the_weak i took a bit of offense.

    I saw it as a silly display of bravado meant to slight others. For myself personally – I’ve known for a very long time that i normally wouldn’t be the smartest person in the room, or when sitting down discussing work with others.

    So, i have my own insecurities.

    Now though – I see “educate the weak” more as a subtle plea for personal erudition.

    What were you thinking?

    I hope everyone understands that everything that’s fantasized about the efficiency increase you can get from replacing Barrett, you can also get by replacing Randle.

    I guess in a very technical sense it is true that on December 26, 2023 Randle and RJ are in the same efficiency sphere for the 2023-2024 season, though Randle’s is still better by a degree that is absolutely statistically significant (107.4 points per 100 true shot attempts for RJ vs 110.9 for Randle).

    However, I don’t blame anyone who trusts Randle to be the more efficient player moving forward, because:

    1) for the last 22 games, or 76% of the season, Randle’s TS% has been .598 while RJ’s has been .535

    2) as Knicks, Randle’s TS% is .551 while RJ’s is .519

    So I don’t think it’s a particularly safe assumption that you can get the same efficiency increase by replacing Randle, outside of a scenario where we’re theoretically replacing Randle with Markkanen and RJ with Wiggins or something.

    In fact, assuming you meant we’d by hypothetically replacing them both with similarly efficient players, I think it’s a terrible assumption.

    I guess the real question is whether Macri is on the MVP voting panel. That will decided whether he gets a 5th place vote.

    Macri? It’d be a 1st place vote for sure! 😛

    I object to a government and society that encourages them, especially lotteries because the “take” is enormous and the people most likely to play lotteries and scratch offs are those that can least afford to throw away money.

    Was thinking about your words a bit yesterday Strat. What i finally landed on was that most likely ever since there has been a: Neighborhood – there’s been someone(s) running a numbers game.

    A few huts or caves away from whomever might have been trading some of their home brew or collected mushrooms to other folks.

    I don’t agree with the idea that replacing Randle or Barrett would yield similar results because of how play when they’re good. We saw against Brooklyn the value Randle can bring when he has a favorable match-up, he has the ability to dominate those and bully weaker defenders. The match-ups Randle struggles against are generally when defenders swarm and double him, or when they have really good strong defenders in the paint to throw at him.

    Meanwhile, Barrett has good games when his shot is falling, which is very inconsistent and doesn’t seem to be connected much to the type of defense he faces. He has had great games against teams like Toronto, that have the type of defenders to give him issues, and terrible ones against other teams like the Jazz or the Suns, who have no one really that should be able to clamp him and are bottom tier defenses. It really seems it’s all about the randomness of whether the same shots simply go in or don’t.

    I think Randle is still a useful weapon to have, even if he would be much better suited to being a 3rd option.

    Is there anyone here who doesn’t think the Knicks should upgrade on Randle if they had the opportunity? RJ is a just a more tradeable guy if you’re dealing with teams that are looking to get worse in the near term.

    RJ is a just a more tradeable guy if you’re dealing with teams that are looking to get worse in the near term.

    There’s no way to possibly know that DR ed. Perhaps, just perhaps some front offices throughout the league do in fact not have access to rowan barrett junior’s basketball reference statistics page.

    That could totally be the case. And maybe, just maybe that team needs a guy who can get up 15 shots a night for at least 70 or so games a year.

    i think we can trade RJ for a serviceable forward – if we include a couple of picks and fournier’s expiring, which would be totally worth it.

    It is near impossible to have a negative .9 vorp through four plus seasons and still be of use to winning basketball. It’s just not happening for him.

    Maybe him, fournier, picks and quik would get us: ???

    I truly don’t get comparing RJ and Randle as if they were some kind of analogs. Randle is much, much better than RJ in virtually every aspect of basketball that is worth discussing…shooting, passing, rebounding, defending….it seems pretty clear to me that Randle is a very valuable asset on his current deal, whereas RJ is a significant liability.

    Leon, or any POBO, would be hard-pressed to replace Randle’s production, especially for the amount he is getting paid. I’m in favor of throwing out Randle’s numbers from the first 6 games or so, when it was clear that he was still recovering from ankle surgery. Since that time, Randle has picked up right where he left off last year, meaning that he is consistently playing like an all-NBA type player. Right now, the drop-off from Randle to a Plan B power forward scenario is unthinkable. There is no iHart (for Mitch), or IQ (for Brunson), or JHart (for RJ), or Grimes (for DDV) to fill his spot in the starting lineup. At least Julius gives us a chance against the best PFs in the NBA like Giannis, Tatum, and KAT…and he dominates players who can’t match his physicality.

    It’s pretty simple. We should obviously be open to trading either player.

    Thing is, if we traded Randle we would almost certainly get worse immediately. Every metric on the planet indicates as much and it’s common sense. Getting worse immediately as a result of a trade can of course be justified, but we would have to ask 1) whether we’re being compensated with enough future equity, and 2) whether it makes sense to make a market value present-for-future equity trade in the absence of a complete tear down.

    If we traded RJ, on the other hand, there’s a very good chance we would get better immediately. It wouldn’t be guaranteed–I don’t think he’s so bad he’s obviously detrimental–but given his salary there are a lot of potential trade targets more productive than him. Just as a trade of Randle that makes us worse isn’t per se unjustifiable, a trade of RJ that makes us better isn’t per se justifiable, but given our place in the standings/on the win curve it sure seems like this is the kind of trade we’re more interested in pursuing.

    This simple formulation is why I find it befuddling people talk about potential trades as if there’s no big difference between trading one versus the other.

    They would be two completely different types of trades, with drastically different implications for our organizational goals and future. Just saying “we should trade one of them” without grappling with this is not particular insightful, IMHO.

    As to RJ, since we’re winning, I’m okay with riding out his latest slump on the hope that he settles in as a plus player, something like he was in the first few games. I don’t really feel an urgency to do anything right now.

    Z-Man and then Noble captured what I was going to say more eloquently than I could have done. In short, Randle’s a two-time All-NBA player at or near his peak — as maddening as he can be (and to his credit he seems to becoming less so), how are we upgrading from him — Giannis? As Noble said, it’s almost certainly going to be a (likely significant near-term) downgrade, which means switching to a totally different path than we’re currently on.

    RJ, not so much.

    Except he really “doesn’t give us a chance” other than in a very flexible interpretation of that term. His Knick TS% is 551. He doesn’t make that up on defense, or even close.

    And he’s worse in the playoffs.

    The difference in opinion here appears to be treating his hot streaks as if that’s the “real” Julius, when (a) it isn’t; and (b) that standard isn’t applied to other players equally.

    When he plays well, the Knicks can win — which you can say about any number of players both on the Knicks and in the association generally. He doesn’t or hasn’t played well enough consistently enough to get them out of mezzatory and doesn’t project to ever do that. In the playoffs, he’s been even worse.

    As to the likelihood of “downturn,” it’s no different than any other player. If they got a better player, there would be no downturn. There would be an upturn.

    (PS: The “all-NBA” thing doesn’t mean jack squat.)

    His .550-ish career and in-season TS% shows the opposite conclusion of a very likely downturn. (As for that matter do his defensive limitations and indifference.)

    In terms of Hubert’s high vol strategy, with which I concur for this roster, both Randle and Barrett are very streaky players. If somehow, someway they could both get on hot streaks in the playoffs, that might be a bet worth playing.

    TNFH, we’re making similar points, but I take it a step further. I don’t get why anyone would even want to trade Julius, considering the way he’s playing right now. The guy has been utterly dominant in this latest stretch, to the point where he’s woefully underpaid. The team has gone 15-8 in our last 23 games, and Julius is just as much of a reason for that as anyone on the team, including Brunson. Since November 26 (a 14 game stretch) he has not had a game TS% less than .543 and has had been over .600 in 9 of those games. In that same stretch, Brunson has had games of .513, .478, .442, and .477.

    I know that Randle is not a hot trade commodity because of his mercurial nature and basketball IQ issues. But so what? He’s way more valuable to us than he would be to many opponents. We’re not just winning with him, we’re often enough winning because of him.

    From Tommy Beer, some interesting IQ stats over the last 12 games:

    – Quickley has played 241 minutes with a plus/minus of +58 and a net rating of +11.3

    – RJ has played 340 minutes with a plus/minus of -69 and a net rating of -9.4

    – DDV has played 257 minutes with a plus/minus of -44 and a net rating of -8.1

    Now obviously some of that is playing against starters vs. bench players, but I don’t think it would hurt to try Quickley with the starters at least before trading a ton of picks for Murray. Or maybe we could just make him more of a focal point in the offense, since the Knicks are 10-3 when Quickley takes more than ten shots and 7-9 when he takes less than ten shots…

    Yeah when people say would you want to upgrade from Randle I always think “sure!” But then I wonder who. He’s literally one of the best PF’s in the league.

    I’d move him for a true superstar or if we were fully retooling the entire team. But if the goal is to improve this team to the next level, Randle should stay, not go. There’s literally only a few PF’s in this league who are better than him and they are not gettable..

    We should not be looking to trade Randle. For 3/4ths of the season he’s been playing like an all-NBA player for ~40% of what most of those guys cost. In what I can only assume was Strat’s personal D-Day, he even got his raw +/- up to +2.5 recently, so you know he’s good.

    Now, if we get blown away by an offer, sure, trade him. But his detractors have never been able to put together a trade that makes sense.

    I’d trade him for all the following power forwards (using ESPN’s depth charts).

    Tatum
    Cam Johnson
    JJJ
    Giannis
    KAT
    Zion
    Jalen Williams
    Banchero
    Durant
    Keegan Murray
    Siakim

    Wild cards: Draymond, Jalen Johnson, Miles Bridge (yeah, everyone knows — I don’t want him), Jeremi Grant

    Nor is there any association rule that he has to be traded for a PF in order for it to be an upgrade.

    It’s pretty disingenuous to keep quoting Randle’s “Knicks TS%” in talking about the here-and-now and what to expect going forward. No one cares about what Julius did when he was playing alongside PGs Alec Burks or Frank Ntilikina or Elfrid Payton or Kemba Walker.

    The only pertinent question is: How does Randle fit on a team run by Jalen Brunson in the context of what is available/possible at this moment?

    In other words, what has Randle’s TS% been playing alongside Brunson in games where he was not either injured or recovering from injury?

    This is not to say that concerns that Randle might perform poorly in the playoffs are invalid. I’m an optimist in that regard, but can see why someone would not be.

    But until there is a deal that nets not only a better regular season performer than Randle has been alongside Brunson who is guaranteed to perform better than Randle has in the playoffs, the shouting at the wind about trades that will never happen so that one doesn’t have to stomach Randle and his two “meaningless” all-NBA awards anymore is pretty pathetic.

    But his detractors have never been able to put together a trade that makes sense.

    The other teams not wanting him and seeing through him proves the detracting point, not the supporting one.

    “The other teams not wanting him and seeing through him proves the detracting point, not the supporting one.”

    Do we have actual evidence that teams don’t want him and see through him? Or are you just making stuff up to suit your narrative?

    “Do we have actual evidence that teams don’t want him and see through him?”

    Just re-addressing the disingenuous TNFH thing wherein you have to “suggest a trade another team would do.”

    Yes, typically when proposing a trade you are encouraged to have at least a semblance of a case that it makes sense for both teams.

    If you question the true quality of a player, it’s a point in your favor that other teams don’t see the player as as valuable as his superficial “numbers.”

    No trade makes sense for the other teams because they don’t see him as that valuable, yet we have to fete him as valuable … doesn’t really make a lot of sense.

    And I provided a list. He really isn’t “one of the best PFs” in the league when you really look at the PFs.

    I haven’t changed my view that Mitch, RJ, and Randle are not an ideal fit on offense and Brunson, RJ, and Randle aren’t an ideal fit on defense.

    Not that I have any great ideas, but imo just thinking in terms of upgrading Randle is too limiting. They could replace Randle with a more 3&D type power forward and also look trade for a scoring wing in two separate deals. So maybe we’d get less scoring out of the PF position, but we’d get better spacing and defense and we’d make up the difference in scoring with a more complimentary wing.

    The idea would be to upgrade the defense and spacing and just shift the scoring usage.

    They should try to include Randle in a DJ Murray trade and see if that can sucker ATL into including Jalen Johnson in the package coming back.

    There are 6 PFs with a higher EPM than Randle, all of them major stars except Lauri:

    Giannis
    KD
    Kawhi
    Tatum
    KAT
    Markkanen

    Sure he’s not perfect, but there are many other positions we should upgrade before PF.

    “Yes, typically when proposing a trade you are encouraged to have at least a semblance of a case that it makes sense for both teams.”

    That seems fair. How about some indication that the Knicks are actually trying to move Randle, beyond the pie-in-the-sky guys like Giannis, Embiid, KAT, and are getting rebuffed?

    Markaten technically isn’t a PF on the source data I used, even though he really is.

    Add him to the list.

    How about some indication that the Knicks are actually trying to move Randle, beyond the pie-in-the-sky guys like Giannis, Embiid, KAT, and are getting rebuffed?

    That’s not really the test though because (1) they might be trying to move him for guys below that class and still getting rebuffed (*); and/or (2) they might not be offering him for guys they should be because they’re overvaluing him.

    (*) There are a lot of guys on the list whose team would not trade them for Julius, e.g.

    This is the thing when people say no one wants Randle. When have the Knicks ever indicated that they were looking to trade him. The only time that’s ever really been mentioned was way back when we drafted Obi. Even then it was basically stated they would “eventually” move on from Randle and Obi would be his replacement. But since his first all NBA season the Knicks haven’t made any real indication that they want to move him. Even during the disastrous follow up season. So I don’t really know where this idea comes from that no one wants him. We haven’t shopped him.

    They could replace Randle with a more 3&D type power forward and also look trade for a scoring wing in two separate deals.

    BKN would never do it, but Cam Johnson fits this bill very well. Would be a perfect modernization/normalization trade. But Leon’s nowhere near swift or creative enough.

    I count 27 SFs better than RJ by EPM, and that’s ignoring all the SGs & PFs who could also play SF.

    I’m very pro-Randle but I think you guys are underestimating how much impact a floor-spacing two way big would have. We could definitely replace Randle and get better. A lot better. And I don’t mean by trading him for Giannis. Someone as
    basic as Jaden McDaniels or Aaron Gordon could do the trick. Neither of these guys are as good as Randle in a vaccuum but they’re incredibly versatile on both ends.

    (It’s too soon to add Jalen Johnson to the list… we need time to see if this breakout is legit… but I’ll tell you right now if you offered Randle for Johnson you’d hear a dial tone real fast.)

    Cam Johnson’s career playoff splits are 489/416/859 in 38 playoff games.

    Yeah, I’d take that.

    Sure, if we gloss over the fact Cam Johnson has a 16.6 usg% in the playoffs, doesn’t pass, can’t rebound like Randle, and doesn’t create his own shot.

    But yes, his shooting %s are higher. Funny how that’s rarely relevant when others critique RJ.

    So we space the floor better but we lose a guy who constantly draws doubles and gets the other teams front court in foul trouble (and gets lots of and 1’s). I honestly think people make way too much about how much we need to “modernize” our offense with a floor spreading PF. And you know we could always try adding a floor spreading SF first and see if that does the trick.

    Cam Johnson is a complementary player who would be a terrible replacement for Randle as a starting PF in a win-now situation. He doesn’t rebound, pass, defend, or create. He is also hurt all the time and has never played more than 1730 minutes in a season.

    But hey, you clearly just want to salary dump Randle, so why not propose ridiculously one-sided trades while you’re at it?

    Replace Randle with Cam Johnson and the Knicks would be fighting just for a play in spot rather than the 4th seed. In fact you could say the same thing about the majority of players on E’s ridiculous list.

    I was conservative and left McDaniels and A. Gordon off the list, but read and digest what Hubert wrote.

    Did you know that Luca, Giannis, Embiid and lebron all average more turnovers per game than Randle?

    And you know we could always try adding a floor spreading SF first and see if that does the trick.

    I think better spacing at one of either the C, PF or SF position would make it easier on everyone that remains. IMO, replacing RJ with a solid two way player that shoots the 3 a little more consistently would make a noticeable difference.

    I wholeheartedly agree that once we acquire Nikola Jokic, swapping out Randle for Aaron Gordon would be an absolutely terrific move!

    (Without Jokic, not so much.)

    Can has a defensive rating of 118 and randles is right under 116. Is that “way better”?

    Aaron Gordon is shooting 25% from 3pt range while taking less than 2 per game but sure he’ll space the floor much better than Randle does!

    Ah, another hijacked thread. Guys, next time remember these immortal words:

    “Okay, E.”

    That’s all that needs saying.

    As for Aaron Gordon, he is a perfectly cromulent mini-Julius.

    13.6/6.9/3.4 on 18.2 USG%, vs. 22.9/9.4/4.9 on 28.4 USG%.

    25% from 3, 60.6 FT% this year for Aaron, vs. 29.3% from three, 77.3 FT% for Jules.

    I mean sure, somewhat different roles, and one has Jokic. But c’mon. About the only thing they share in common is height.

    Jaden McDaniels with his career averages of 10ppg, 4 reb and negative 2.2 BPM would be an even better replacement for Randle!

    For the record, I tried to push this thread in a “maybe Quickley should start?” direction but was unable to derail this stellar convo.

    for sure iq should start but as thibs says “it ain’t about minutes…it’s all about the team”….i tried every foreign language translation app but I haven’t found one that can decipher that morse code…

    The problem with both Randle and RJ is that they provide so little value when the ball isn’t in their hands.

    Between the two of them, Randle’s better by miles. But we’re also in the penultimate year of his current contract.

    Look where the ball is going, not where it is: in 1.5 seasons, would you rather have Randle kicking off a 4 year extension at age 31, or 25 y/o RJ with two years left?

    Randle’s been fantastic for us, he’s much better than RJ, but his time here should be up soon. I don’t want him on that next contract.

    Anyone notice that Giddey has quietly been terrible this year?

    His secondary counting stats are still great, but he’s been incredibly inefficient and EPM thinks pretty poorly of his defense too.

    He’s young enough that you don’t trade him, but maybe bench him and move Jalen to his more natural position on the wing.

    “Aaron Gordon isn’t on the list. But by all means, keep pummeling that strawman!!”

    “It’s about me!! Me-me-me!!!”

    HUBERT said Aaron. Then you pointed out his statement. But…

    Okay, E.

    But Hubert, I’m actually at least partly and maybe mostly with you and your “look at where the ball is going” comment. Although I’d hate it if the only choice was keep Randle OR keep RJ. Like, get rid of one ASAP because he’s an albatross (prove me wrong, RJ, please…) and get rid of the other in a while and in a way that either improves us or moves us onto a different timeline.

    And no, Noble, I don’t have a trade in mind, at least for the latter (for the former, a bag of rocks would do fine…).

    Aaron Gordon is shooting 25% from 3pt range while taking less than 2 per game but sure he’ll space the floor much better than Randle does!

    Dude he averaged 37 mpg and was the third best player on a team that won the title. The guy ain’t chopped liver.

    If the question is who can handle 27% USG better in an all-ISO offense, the answer is Julius Randle all day.

    But Aaron Gordon guards 3 frontcourt positions very well, crashes the boards with a vengeance, and moves incredibly well without the basketball. Would we be better off with that skillset? Quite possibly.

    About the only thing they share in common is height.

    Precisely.

    Your problem is you’re comparing guys to Julius on Julius’ terms. I’m looking for guys who do all the things Julius doesn’t.

    HUBERT said Aaron.

    Right. That means it’s not “about me,” but instead about the idea.

    Your problem is you’re looking for guys who do what Julius does better than him.

    Exactly. The entire basketball issue is that you don’t want players like Julius trying to do all the things Julius tries to do.

    You want to modernize, normalize, and repurpose away from that.

    But in any event, there’s well into double digits of only PFs you’d trade Julius for.

    I agree that Aaron Gordon is a very good basketball player and his acquisition by Denver was the final piece to make them a championship contender.

    But he’s a perfect fit for Denver because of Jokic and Murray. The 2 seasons prior even after trading for Gordon when Murray couldn’t play in the playoffs the Nuggets didn’t have enough scoring cause Gordon was just a 13ppg scorer for them in the playoffs.

    We all know Randle’s flaws and that he’s not in the elite tier but he’s very good and a much more important player than some here want to give him credit for.

    But that’s the problem, no?

    If you get Aaron Gordon, you need to make massive upgrade elsewhere to replace his usage. If you move RJ, it’s pretty easy to get a straight upgrade.

    Regardless, those guys are still net downgrades and you better be getting some draft picks or something in return.

    Double digit PFs better than Randle lol seriously E you need to invite us when you have your next stand up comedy act!

    Look where the ball is going, not where it is: in 1.5 seasons, would you rather have Randle kicking off a 4 year extension at age 31, or 25 y/o RJ with two years left?

    That’s the question I keep asking. Randle is obviously the much more productive player now, but I’m less sure who I’d want 2 years from now if we replace one of them. RJ may not become the player we hoped he would, but I think he’ll be better than he is now coming into his peak years. Randle could be at the start of his decline.

    It’s all moot though because they aren’t going to trade Randle. Scott Perry pretty much said they love Randle. He hinted they wanted a taller longer SF and to move RJ to SG where he would have a size and strength advantage almost every night.

    But that’s obviously not the only option for upgrading a position. It sounds like there’s legitimate interest in trading with Atlanta for Murray if they can work something out. I’m still not 100% sure how I feel about that. I guess it depends who goes out.

    I mean this all gets back to the “chrome and leather” thing. It’s not really all that hard to find the right pieces to surround a ten jillion BPM megastar like Nikola Jokic who ruins opposing teams mostly by himself. Aaron Gordon will do just fine as a third banana.

    Bring Aaron Gordon in here to replace Julius Randle and we’d all be talking about how much he sucks in about a week.

    Scott Perry pretty much said they love Randle.

    [that emoji Porzingis put on his Instagram when it leaked that Phil Jackson was shopping him]

    Indiana with a change to their starting lineup tonight, Hield and Obi to the bench. Will Obi be back in the starting lineup for his revenge game Saturday vs the Knicks?

    But that’s the problem, no?

    If you get Aaron Gordon, you need to make massive upgrade elsewhere to replace his usage.

    Not really. Gordon’s still a 20+ USG player (and a very efficient one, at that). He’s just not an ISO USG player.

    Unlike E, I have immense appreciation for Julius Randle. The degree of difficulty he overcomes is incredible. I know Aaron Gordon can’t do what Julius Randle can do. But I don’t think someone has to be able to do what Julius does to make us better.

    I mean this all gets back to the “chrome and leather” thing.

    Is there a pre-chrome and leather phase? I always assumed the place would be tidied up and prepped for the c and l. I guess it doesn’t have to be, but that’s inefficient and a time waste.

    hey 🌶…

    increased the dosage this time to 3.5 grams…just trying to loosen things up a bit…

    you know, i think what i find most entertaining and enrapturing about KB is that fact that I am sooooo certain that if you can’t explain your point and like 30 fucking words or less – it is certainly all bullshit your are spewing…

    and yet…

    Bring Aaron Gordon in here to replace Julius Randle and we’d all be talking about how much he sucks in about a week.

    Not me. I’m a huge Aaron Gordon fan. I’d just be arguing we need a second trade for a good scorer to replace Randle’s current usage as the second option. But IMO we need that anyway.

    Or within a week, a bunch of people would be saying how great the ball movement is when Brunson and Barrett and the rest pass to an off-ball cutting and running Gordon for slams and efficient shots generally.

    The offense doesn’t *have to be* nail-pounding ISO. It’s that way (essentially) because of one guy.

    Fun facts, currently Knicks have a 118.4 offensive rating compared to Denver’s 118.5. Last season Knicks had a 117.8 offensive rating compared to Denver’s 117.6.

    Yeah but Denver doesn’t even turn on the jets until the playoffs. Thibs coaches every game like it’s game 7.

    After an outlier season last year, Gordon is back to his 0.5 OBPM career average.

    Seriously, wtf are people talking about?

    He doesn’t space the floor, he doesn’t create shots, and he had a crap efficiency until he lines up next to Jokic.

    Great guy to have next to Jokic, but he’d be terrible here.

    “Bring Aaron Gordon in here to replace Julius Randle and we’d all be talking about how much he sucks in about a week.”

    You mean, like he did in his 6.5 years with Orlando when he topped out at a .541 TS%?

    If we traded Randle for any of these high assisted-FG rate guys defenses would load up comically hard on Brunson and we’d obviously be worse for it. What an absurd conversation, you don’t even have to look further than Aaron Gordon’s pre-Jokic career.

    I mean…

    I’d just be arguing we need a second trade for a good scorer to replace Randle’s current usage as the second option.

    …yes, that’s the point. Do you think these guys grow on trees?

    What an absurd conversation, you don’t even have to look further than Aaron Gordon’s pre-Jokic career.

    Aaron Gordon is like 16th on “the list” and he’s in his prime now.

    If we traded Randle for any of these high assisted-FG rate guys defenses would load up comically hard on Brunson and we’d obviously be worse for it.

    Brunson can’t pass out of a double-team? (Assuming that what you project even unfolds. And not that it really matters anyway because Aaron Gordon is at/near the bottom of a long list.)

    There’s no real evidence that the Knicks’ offense will suffer dramatically if they get rid of Julius’s ISOs and no evidence at all it will suffer in the playoffs. There’s a reason few if any other teams play ISO-ball.

    coming off a nice win and it’s another really long thread whining about one of our better players, good shit

    Someone else’s definition of ISO in entirely different contexts, including but not limited to, movement away from the ISO and time the ball is held and by whom and where on the court.

    Return to sender.

    There’s no future in depending on Julius style ISOs. (That beget other ISOs for fear of never getting the ball back.) Basically everyone here knows that. It’s a band-aid, if not a full on co-dependency situation.

    Time to end it. The list has been provided. Plenty of non-PFs can be added, I’m sure.

    Anyone notice that Giddey has quietly been terrible this year?

    His secondary counting stats are still great, but he’s been incredibly inefficient and EPM thinks pretty poorly of his defense too.

    He’s young enough that you don’t trade him, but maybe bench him and move Jalen to his more natural position on the wing.

    Maybe he is distracted by legal problems. Assuming he resolves those, maybe it’s an opportunity to buy low.

    It seems to me a lot people want to trade Randle because they don’t enjoy watching his style of play. We do have a top rated offense, even if it looks ugly (and I’m not sure everyone agrees it looks ugly—I have a friend who thinks the Knicks are fun to watch). I’m not in favor of messing that up unless we are improving our defense by a lot.

    Our offense is something like 4th in the league after the first 6 games and 9th or 10th including them. The offense is great and there’s no need to modernize it.

    E constantly bitches about Randle’s lapses in effort and then with a straight face says we should get Zion to replace him.

    You can’t make this shit up.

    “Our offense is something like 4th in the league after the first 6 games and 9th or 10th including them. The offense is great and there’s no need to modernize it.”

    But what else could we possibly talk about after beating one of the best teams in the league on national TV on Christmas Day?

    Our offense is something like 4th in the league after the first 6 games and 9th or 10th including them. The offense is great and there’s no need to modernize it.

    Well, that’s not true. Our weird offense is based off of offensive rebounds and not actually putting the ball in the basket. We do have the 10th ranked offense but we’re 19th and 21st in eFG and TS.

    People here are really staring at RJ’s 0.0 OBPM and 0.0 VORP and saying to themselves “Julius Randle has to go,” smdh.

    nice to see myles turner and the pacers long term commitment to each other working out…

    turner is still putting in some legit
    work out there…

    Edit: holy cow, just saw myles is only 27…feels like he’s been out there since forever…

    “People here are really staring at RJ’s 0.0 OBPM and 0.0 VORP and saying to themselves “Julius Randle has to go,” smdh.”

    Truth isn’t truth!

    Knicks make the 11th most 3s per game and are Top 10 in FTAs, fewest turnovers and obviously in grabbing offensive rebs.

    They do a few other important things well on offense beside just grabbing their own missed shots.

    When Barrett passes lol. He never fucking passes the ball. Randle averages 4.9 assists per game. Brunson averages 5.9.
    RJ averages 2.4.

    Don’t look now but the Bulls are 9-4 in their last 13 games. I wonder what kind of reception Zach LaVine will get in the locker room when he returns…

    Well, that’s not true. Our weird offense is based off of offensive rebounds and not actually putting the ball in the basket. We do have the 10th ranked offense but we’re 19th and 21st in eFG and TS.

    We’re 7th in efg% after the first 6 games and 10th in TS%.

    So we could get rid of Randle, or maybe the rotation player with the worst efg%, which is RJ.

    For those who live with the belief that the Knicks are more damned than most with their early picks:

    ‘In 2015, Detroit was deciding between Johnson and Devin Booker. It took the former. In 2018, the Pistons selected Henry Ellenson. He was out of the NBA by the age of 24. In 2017, Van Gundy and company decided to go with Luke Kennard over Donovan Mitchell. To put a cherry on top, the pick Detroit sent to the Clippers as part of the Griffin trade ended up being Miles Bridges, who was then traded to the Hornets for Shai Gilgeous-Alexander.’

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