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2023-24 Game Thread: Knicks @ Suns (West Coast Good Teams Road Trip Opener, which is kind of a thing)

The Knicks head to Phoenix for the start of a stretch of them facing off against some good teams, and just like the Jazz game, the Suns have gotten healthy in time for the Knicks, with this being just the second time all season that the Suns’ “Medium-Sized Three” of Devin Booker, Bradley Beal and Kevin Durant will all be in the starting lineup at the same time.

Grayson Allen will also be back in the starting lineup for a change.

The Suns and the Knicks are both struggling recently, so the Knicks have a real chance here to sneak a win in before heading to Los Angeles to take on the resurgent Clippers tomorrow night.

Let’s go, Knicks!

123 replies on “2023-24 Game Thread: Knicks @ Suns (West Coast Good Teams Road Trip Opener, which is kind of a thing)”

Durant just went supernova, holy shit. Really a thing of beauty.

I probably shouldn’t like Myers but his discussion of trying to get Durant to shoot more was interesting.

Terrible closing minutes by Julius. That last second shot into a double team rather than dishing to a wide open RJ was total brain fart

this hasn’t been the worse game in the world…kevin durant plus devin booker >>> entire knick roster…

still though…if jalen and RJ can have a good game, we may have a shot…

it’s like it’s impossible to defend in the nba at the moment…typical over/under is like 250 these days…

edit: kevin durant >>> entire knicks roster

It’s gonna take a miracle to hold Phoenix under 130 pts.

One needs total concentration on every defensive possession. Alas, Randle and concentration don’t go together. He repeatedly got lost on defense the last five minutes, allowed KD to get hot, and then Randle got nervous and messy on offense, too. He is who he is.

Someone should try playing defense against Durant. He’s going to score efficiently anyway, but we don’t have to give him EXTRA points by being off him and lazy on defense.

RJ is bouncing back with a pretty good game so far. He’s more controlled on offense when the ball goes in the basket which of course leads to the ball going into the basket more often because he’s taking fewer bad shots.

Grimes may not have been effective enough on offense in the starting lineup, but I don’t like DDV in the starting lineup on defense. I don’t expect Thibs to figure out what he should do.

(I’m glad you said it Rough so I didn’t have to)

I am concerned Brunson is losing his magic mid-range touch. It’s been several games now. I hope this is temporary.

Knicks offense is still fine though. Defense has been their problem the past few weeks.

I am concerned Brunson is losing his magic mid-range touch. It’s been several games now. I hope this is temporary.

hey rough, do you know what’s up with the wrap on his right hand?

Every time we play this team and I watch Booker torching us, I remember the rumor back when Phil was in NY, before KP started getting hurt, and at a time when the Suns were a mess. Phoenix had offered Booker, who had asked out, and picks for KP. Could have, would have. So many times with this team. It’s maddening.

hey rough, do you know what’s up with the wrap on his right hand?

That could be a major reason. He is banged up, for sure.

That could be a major reason. He is banged up, for sure.

You would think with their starting PG banged up they’d find a few extra minutes for their two way playing backup PG.

I’m remember the play Brunson banged his right hand. I’m pretty sure it was last game. It doesn’t seem to be stopping him much in the 2nd half.

I think Jalen is ok

19-point third quarter. I think I will start questioning his shooting at the end of the half every time.

It’s all about the defensive end, folks. We don’t seem to be able to hold a team, any team, below 30 points per quarter. Tonight it was 30, 38, 31 for the Suns. Let’s hope we lock down on D to close the game.

It’s all about the defensive end, folks. We don’t seem to be able to hold a team, any team, below 30 points per quarter. Tonight it was 30, 38, 31 for the Suns. Let’s hope we lock down on D to close the game.

No Mitch in the paint to clean up some of the mess.

Quickley has a tendency to dribble more than I prefer, but the 2nd unit moves the ball better than the 1st unit.

I’m not sure where RJ is going to level off for the season from the FT line, but I feel pretty confident we can ink in that he’s improved.

Edit: pepper beat me to it.

Ewing will always be my favorite Knick ever but God damn Brunson is already a close 2nd.

Brunson having that kinda game where his offense is so good that his deficiencies on defense don’t matter too much.

Brunson is electric right now and it’s feeding the defensive energy. Great way to close.

What a game. I didn’t see this one coming at all. A lot of very good efforts in this one and fewer bad decisions.

Finally!!! F–g finally! A good defensive quarter! 2:20 to go and the Suns scored only 15 points. Vogel throwing in the towel.

I’m pretty sure Taj Gibson’s mere presence in the locker room was the difference. 😉

Only shooting performances just as good I could think of is Crawford’s 50+ pt game vs Miami and of course Melo’s 62 and 50 pt games.

I didn’t see Houston’s 50 pt games.

Hopefully this puts the last thread into the KB trash…along with some of the dumbest posts ever.

Hopefully this puts the last thread into the KB trash…along with some of the dumbest posts ever.

Amen, and it should shut up Troll-iacci for a while

Ha- Durant throwing shade at QG in the post game complaining that they shouldn’t have let a guy who can’t dribble get up 6 threes.

Bench play shouldn’t get lost in the deserved praise for Brunson- the bench unit got the lead and Brunson brought it home.

Phenomenal fourth quarter and important W for several reasons. First, it came at a much needed time. Second, it came against a theoretical ‘contender.’ Third and most important, the Knicks showed they can still play good D; they clamped down on D and got consecutive defensive stops when they needed them. All in the fourth courter

Third and most important, the Knicks showed they can still play good D; they clamped down on D

Amen. Let’s hope they sustain that effort.

Unsung hero: Isaiah Hartenstein. He was a huge part of both hanging tough and then the critical run.

Amen. Let’s hope they sustain that effort.

If you play good D and don’t shoot well, you are still in the game. If you play good D and shoot well, you blow the other team out. This is what we did in the fourth today. It’s as simple as that.

KD in the Phoenix postgame presser:

“Quentin Grimes got 6 3s off… He doesn’t dribble at all. That’s the stuff you can’t have.”

He’s right, but that’s funny.😆

Grimes does have to improve his handle and ability to shoot off the dribble to become the player we need him to become.

Where are all the RJ haters tonight?

We know what he is.

He’s a streaky shooter that can be his own worst enemy.

Whoever the coach was that told him when he was young that if he is shooting poorly just keep putting it up gave him the worst advice he’s ever gotten. That’s what you tell a Durant or Booker, not an RJ or Starks.

When the ball is dropping for him he plays more controlled. When he’s missing he sometimes gets even more aggressive and turns a bad night into a debacle. I thought he might have outgrown that, but that last game was a flashback of foolishness.

Overall he’s better this year than last, but he’s inching forward when what we really need is a breakout.

I liked this game better than the previous one.

3 point shooting volatility has an outsized impact on perception, especially when it goes from one extreme to the other on either side of the ball.

Our bench killed them. They need more depth.

Personally, I don’t we’ve solved the Grimes/DDV dilemma at the SG position yet. Grimes can’t do enough on offense but we lose something on defense we can’t afford to lose with DDV. It seems clear Thibs is not even going to try starting Quickley. Maybe he should try Hart, but we desperately need that longer player that can defend the bigger wings, knock down 3s, and do something off the dribble.

I didn’t see the game, but I suspect that Grimes got his shots off without dribbling at all because he is so fast with his release.

KD wasn’t complaining when Klay Thompson was hitting 8 threes on his team without dribbling a single time…

What a game by Brunson, just fucking wow. He keeps rising on my list of favorite Knicks ever.

I like Taj. He can probably still give us some productive minutes off the bench, but I’m not sure that was the right move. We may need someone that can give us 15-20 consistent productive minutes. I’m not sure he can do that.

I had some hopes for Sims early on even though he doesn’t give you much on offense. But now I don’t think he’s very good on defense either. Either way, I think we are going to wind up needing another big that can play C and give us solid minutes even if I-Hart is the one getting the bulk of the minutes. Since I don’t expect them to do that, hopefully Sims will prove me wrong.

It sounds like Randle is determined to shoot fewer 3s and go back to more bully ball to try to raise his efficiency. If we had a bigger SF and slid RJ back to SG he’d be able to do the same thing to smaller SGs. Of course that’s the spacing problem I keep talking about with Mitch, RJ, and Randle. It’s harder to get in there uncontested or with an easy mismatch when there’s not much outside shooting and space and you are kicking out to an unreliable 3 point shooter some of the time.

“Let me know when RJ Barrett cracks a 0 BPM. Or at least pass a note to my skeletal remains.”

What’s weird about RJ’s BPM is that he is going to sport a negative DBPM no matter what because of his low steals and blocks number. The “smart guys” on KFS and guys like Fred Katz think that RJ’s defense is “much improved,” yet his DBPM is lower than it was last year when he was by those same accounts playing terrible defense.

As such, I think RJ is playing better overall than his BPM would suggest. Obviously he’s still benefitting from his early season hot streak from 3, but he was also hurt by the first few games back from the migraines.

The improvement in his FT shooting seems real, hopefully that will be a leading indicator for his other shooting numbers. I think he will always be erratic from 3, and his current 35% seems pretty baked in. For now, his 2pt shooting has been the most discouraging thing for me. Hopefully that can creep up to at least last year’s 50%-ish level.

It seems like Randle and Brunson are in peak form right now, so maybe RJ can step up somewhat and round out a Big 3 of sorts.

Good for Brunson but also good for us for winning in the road against a goodish team after playing so poorly the night before. And it was nice for RJ, Brunson and Randle to all play well at the same time.

1-0 in the 2nd Taj Era.

I like the Taj pick up mainly bc it’s a non guaranteed minimum deal that cost us nothing. So it’s not like we can’t cut him if we need to and he can give us minutes or just ride the bench.

It sounds like Randle is determined to shoot fewer 3s and go back to more bully ball to try to raise his efficiency.

There’s a Katz article that came out yesterday (?) that says Randle has done a better job getting deep post position instead of settling for long 2s he’s getting his midrange shots closer to the bucket.

Katz also thinks Randle is doing a better job reading the defense and passing out of double teams even though his assists are down. He says Randle is posting more from 6ft rather than 12.

I’m wondering if playing closer to the basket actually improves spacing because the man who doubles has further to go to recover to a shooter.

1-0 in the 2nd Taj Era.

Technically it is the 3rd Taj Era. He was was waived prior to the 20/21 season (ending Era 1) and re-signed about 10 games in (starting Era 2). Era 2 was much better than Era 1, so logic would dictate Era 3 being much better than Era 2!

What’s weird about RJ’s BPM is that he is going to sport a negative DBPM no matter what because of his low steals and blocks number. The “smart guys” on KFS and guys like Fred Katz think that RJ’s defense is “much improved,” yet his DBPM is lower than it was last year when he was by those same accounts playing terrible defense.

DBPM is why I hate BPM. OBPM is honestly fine, but the way they credit defense relies way too much on the overall team defense and doles out that credit based way too much on counting stats.

RJs EPM is at +0.8 right now. He’s +0.9 on offense and -0.1 on defense, which isn’t half bad for a guy who was -2 or something on defense last year(wish I had saved the data). Not sure how accurate that is given Randle is positive on defense (maybe rebound overcredit) but it’s a welcome change.

Subjectively he looks better on the perimeter to me and has actually done a decent job rotating to the rim and contesting vertically a la Quick.

Also, if there’s an over on Brunson shooting 44% from 3 this year I’d think pretty hard on taking the over.

Where were you when Jalen Brunson set his career high in steals?

In a bar catching up with my oldest friend trying not to watch it from the corner of my eye

It’s unfortunate that the best two players on the block are probably both on Toronto with Siakam and OG. Thanks, Dolan.

Siakam would obviously be a weird fit with Randle but he’s good enough that I’d at least toy with the idea. Defensively, he’s quick enough on the perimeter to make it work.

Obviously the other option is just moving Randle which might set our offense back but could salvage what’s looking like a terrible defense.

Strat, I think that’s the move you’re ideally looking for. You unload Randle without skipping much of a beat at PF.

Where were you when Jalen Brunson set his career high in steals?

Covering my eyes every time the Knicks were playing “defense”

I couldn’t make it past the first half.

What was clear is that the Suns are bad on defense for a “contender.”

9-9 is really an insane night.

From Larry Brown Sports:

“Kevin Durant has enjoyed unparalleled success against the New York Knicks throughout his career, averaging 29.5 points, 7.2 rebounds and 5.8 assists in 25 games. Perhaps more impressive than that is his 21-4 record against the Knicks all-time.

That fourth loss came during a 139-122 defeat on Friday night at the Footprint Center.

While that loss seems insignificant on the surface, it snapped an incredible decade-long string of success. It was Durant’s first loss against the Knicks since April 7, 2013, when he was a member of the Oklahoma City Thunder. That’s more than 10 years of dominance — 3,904 days to be exact.”

Ten years…that’s crazy.

Good win against a good team (with a lot of problems and KD’s already brewing).

Brunson fantastic career night and efficient games from Julius and RJ are a good recipe for winning, I agree with Z-Man about I-Hart as the silent hero of the game.

I did advocate for a change in Julius shooting diet for years, so I’m totally okay with him attacking the rim, using the midrange and keeping defenses honest with occasional threes… now if only he could try on D more often…

And RJ’s FT progress is another nice thing.

A night like this isn’t happening every day and I still think this team has a hard ceiling, but it offsets the unexpected loss in Utah and give us some breathing room during a difficult road trip.

Let’s Go Knicks!

Ten years…that’s crazy.

It’s really crazy, even more if you think the streak includes some games against Brooklyn which he basically played picking up players from the local YMCA…

Most metrics either don’t capture individual defense well or not at all. IMO, that’s why you have to look elsewhere for evidence and also watch the games. RJ looks a little better to me on defense, at least compared to last year and the limited evidence I look at suggests he’s not a plus defender, but not terrible like last year.

I agree about RJ defense.
To me he’s less “bulkier”, more “fit” this year, he moves better both on defense and offense (some “twirling” moves were cumbersome last year).

Maybe the real plus of his FIBA experience has been the need to be in game shape all summer (and work on basketball things, like FTs) instead of pumping iron too much?

“I agree with Z-Man about I-Hart as the silent hero of the game.”

The key for iHart is staying out of foul trouble. Even though he isn’t the imposing presence that Mitch is, he moves incredibly well (had some awesome blocks last night!) and his passing ability sparks a cutting game that is nonexistent when Mitch is on the floor. It’s weird….he sometimes seems like a very high-IQ player but also does a lot of dumb things…ticky-tack fouls, terrible outlet passes, etc. If he could just clean up those things, he’d be a quality starter (and right now, he is sort of a starter in every way except for actually starting.)

OTOH, Sims is a gargantuan step down from Mitch or iHart. He’s literally a replacement-level minutes eater right now. Obviously a gifted leaper with good lateral speed/quickness and switchable out on the perimeter. He’s just not able to get the timing down on his defense around the rim. He would benefit from not trying to jump out of the gym when protecting the rim and focusing more on contesting rather than blocking shots, especially when rotating to guys attacking the rim. Maybe these reps will help him get into a better rhythm, but he’s in “hold your breath” territory right now. I wonder if Thibs will consider replacing some/all of his minutes with Taj once he gets into some kind of game shape…

well, julius probably ain’t wrong…

when jalen plays that way, we are a much much better team…

can’t wait to see taj start taking and making threes…make it rain old man, make it rain…

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Taj would be immediately removed from the game and would never see the light of day again if he took a three-pointer…….even if he made it.

Lovely. Taj Gibson is an “old man,” and he is 21 years younger than me. I should only be so “old.”

“Taj would be immediately removed from the game and would never see the light of day again if he took a three-pointer…….even if he made it.”

It’s kind of odd that the self-appointed chief of KB’s grammar police would post something so blatantly and demonstrably wrong…

Taj has been taking and making threes since the last year of his first stint with the Knicks. He’s actually gotten pretty decent at corner threes.

On a side note iHart should be starting soon with Taj backing him up cause Sims just isn’t good enough.

Unfortunately everyone on the Clippers is knocking everything down but that’s par for the course nowadays with Knicks opponents.

Actually, RJ has defended George pretty well despite giving up 3 inches. Kawhi has been really good, though, and he’s just very hard to stop when he’s on.

Yeah its not an insult saying Randle is struggling to cover Kawhi, in fairness he’s stayed with him pretty well for the most part.

Donte is 4-4 from three tonight and I believe he was 43% from three coming in

The boy can shoot

Yeah unfortunately this game might turn into a Clippers blowout win in the 2nd half.

Yeah thanks to the refs

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