[CBS Sports] — Wednesday, November 8, 2023 7:23:10 AM
Knicks vs. Spurs prediction, odds, line, spread, time: 2023 NBA picks … CBS Sports
[Daily Knicks] — Wednesday, November 8, 2023 7:00:44 AM
Stock soaring for 3 New York Knicks, while 2 are fading fast Daily Knicks
[Pounding The Rock ] — Wednesday, November 8, 2023 7:00:00 AM
Looking back at Pop’s opposing head coaches- Knicks edition Pounding The Rock
[Hoops Hype] — Wednesday, November 8, 2023 3:32:23 AM
Spurs vs. Knicks: Start time, where to watch, what’s the latest Hoops Hype
[Pounding The Rock ] — Wednesday, November 8, 2023 3:00:00 AM
Game Preview: San Antonio Spurs at New York Knicks Pounding The Rock
[Newsday] — Tuesday, November 7, 2023 6:40:16 PM
Syosset’s Stephanie Mincone joins Knicks City Dancers Newsday
[New York Daily News] — Tuesday, November 7, 2023 6:40:00 PM
RJ Barrett becomes youngest Knick to reach 5,000 points New York Daily News
[Reuters] — Tuesday, November 7, 2023 6:21:00 PM
After ’embarrassing’ 41-point loss, Spurs visit Knicks Reuters
[New York Daily News] — Tuesday, November 7, 2023 6:19:34 PM
Mitchell Robinson rebounding at historic rate for Knicks this season New York Daily News
[Heavy.com] — Tuesday, November 7, 2023 4:48:33 PM
2 Knicks Players Got Votes But Excluded in ESPN’s NBA 25 Under 25 Heavy.com
[Meridiano.net] — Tuesday, November 7, 2023 3:19:31 PM
NBA: Esta figura de New York Knicks alcanza r?cord anotador y arruina el debut de James Harden con Clippers Meridiano.net
[New York Daily News] — Tuesday, November 7, 2023 3:07:44 PM
Knicks not backing down from Victor Wembanyama challenge: ‘Just … New York Daily News
[Sports Illustrated] — Tuesday, November 7, 2023 1:35:04 PM
Sixer Nixer? Ex Embiid Teammate Sounds Off on Knicks Trade Rumor Sports Illustrated
[Sports Illustrated] — Tuesday, November 7, 2023 1:31:11 PM
Barrett Reaches Knicks Milestone in Win vs. Clippers Sports Illustrated
[Pickswise] — Tuesday, November 7, 2023 12:34:00 PM
San Antonio Spurs vs New York Knicks Prediction, Odds and Picks PickswiseKnicks bracing for first look at Spurs’ ‘unreal’ Victor Wembanyama in Garden debut New York Post Spurs vs. Knicks GAMEDAY Preview: How to Watch, Injury Report, Betting Odds Sports Illustrated
[CBS Sports] — Tuesday, November 7, 2023 11:40:42 AM
Knicks’ Jalen Brunson: Shooting struggles continue CBS Sports
[PEOPLE] — Tuesday, November 7, 2023 11:04:34 AM
Irina Shayk Brings Her Sultry Style Courtside in Thigh-High Leopard Boots at Knicks Game PEOPLE
[NBA.com] — Tuesday, November 7, 2023 11:00:00 AM
New York Knicks to Celebrate the Legacy of Willis Reed Annually on … NBA.com
[San Francisco Chronicle] — Tuesday, November 7, 2023 10:24:31 AM
New York Knicks Stax San Francisco Chronicle
[FantasyPros] — Tuesday, November 7, 2023 10:19:00 AM
Russell Westbrook scores 17 points in loss to the Knicks FantasyPros
[FantasyPros] — Tuesday, November 7, 2023 10:18:00 AM
Paul George scores 10 points in loss to the Knicks FantasyPros
[Pickswise] — Tuesday, November 7, 2023 9:12:00 AM
Spurs vs Knicks 11/8 Same Game Parlay Picks at +406 odds Pickswise
69 replies on “Knicks Morning News (2023.11.08)”
Fascinated with how Mitch vs Wemby goes. Mitch is so much stronger, but stretch 5s are his kryptonite, and Wemby can in theory shoot over him.
And since the Spurs are technically playing Wemby at the 4, I wonder if they’ll try to have him guard Julius, or if they’ll put him on a non-offensive threat like Mitch, while Zach Collins does his best to body up Randle.
Meanwhile, really good Katz notebook article from yesterday digging into Mitch’s improvement, whether he thinks RJ has actually taken a leap (spoiler: he does), our shooting woes, etc.
https://theathletic.com/5040220/2023/11/07/knicks-early-season-storylines/
That’s a good question. It would take more time than I have or am willing to spend to go back and look at every backup PF that was available, but using no time or energy at all, if I was charge and couldn’t convince Obi to stay, at an absolute minimum we’d have Taj on the bench JUST in case Randle got hurt or J-Hart was getting abused by a bigger guy that night. I’m fairly certain we could do better than that though.
From Katz
And that’s exactly why imo Randle ultimately has to go.
1. Mitch is going to be inside. He’s not going anywhere unless Embiid shakes loose. He’s too important anchoring the defense and gives our inefficient offense the extra possessions we desperately need.
2. Brunson is the starting PG. He’s not going anywhere. He shoots the 3 well enough, but we want him to be able to operate inside also.
3. Grimes is the solid defender we need next to Brunson and shoots the 3 fine with a quick release that helps provide space.
That leaves Randle and RJ.
Both of those guys want to drive into space that does not exist, just like Brunson. Unless one of those 2 guys becomes a real sharp shooter, we will have spacing problems. It’s not as bad as when Elfrid was the PG :), but it’s not good.
So take your pick?
Who goes over the long term?
RJ is younger, improving, and extends the widow, but Randle has been the much better player so far. I’ve been going back and forth on it for the last few years, but I think Randle has become the more obvious choice as time has passed.
Randle is still inconsistent and suspect mentally.
RJ is getting better.
Robinson has solidified himself at the starting C and we aren’t talking about guys like Myles Turner fitting with Randle better anymore.
(unless we get Embiid who might open the court a little better).
It was a pretty dry market for power forwards.
One guy I did like was Keita Bates-Diop. He took a minimum deal with the Suns hoping to pull a Bruce Brown, i.e. get lots of minutes on a desperate contender and parlay it into a good deal.
You couldn’t have gotten him to do that here because playing behind Randle he’d have little opportunity to shine. You would have had circumvent the “prove-it” year and give him the money up front. Not a wise move.
I find the DDV signing to be perfectly analogous to drafting Jalen Johnson. JJ would have seemed like bad use of a 1RP in year 1 but we sure would be glad to have him now. I expect DDV to follow a similar trajectory.
Passing on 4 years of a solid player just so we could have 12 minutes of a backup PF in a season where we have a nearly zero percent chance of winning a title would have nearly incinerated the value of the MLE (and this might be the last time we can use it for a while).
Granted, the total value of Jalen Johnson’s rookie contract is less than the AAV of DDV. I get it. But I don’t see us getting under the cap in the next 3 years, so what’s he really holding us back from?
(The answer is the second apron, which basically means maybe in the future we won’t be able to use the full MLE. So you want to sacrifice the MLE now because you might need it later? That’s like benching your best player in the 4Q because he has 4 fouls. You’d be consigning yourself to the outcome you’re afraid might occur.)
Bottom line, I am Leon’s harshest critic when it comes to asset management, and I think he did well here. It looks wasteful now, but it’s a four year deal and lots of change is coming.
Per Katz:
“If they could have hit a shot on opening night against the Boston Celtics, they would’ve won that game. The same goes for the home loss to the Cavs. If anyone other than Brunson had stepped up against the Bucks, that’s another win.
Pull just one of those games out, and the Knicks are 4-3 with victories over multiple good teams. It means they should count on finishing around where the projections had them at the start of the season: somewhere in the middle of the Eastern Conference’s playoff picture.”
This is pretty much where I’m at right now. Beating the star-studded Clips sort of balances out the dreadful home loss to the Cavs. The record is pretty much what it should be, and would have been better if they could have executed another play or two in crunch time vs. the Celts and Bucks.
My guess is that once everyone settles in to their respective roles and the schedule lightens up, the Knicks will start winning lots of games on the strength of a bully-ball starting lineup and a turbocharged bench with RJ playing a prominent role on the bench mob. It’s only a matter of time.
look i like donte… i like hart… it’s just a simultaneous risky and low upside move… they don’t add much if any wins and come playoff time they are low impact…. much like the incineration… our resources should be devoted towards getting those difference makers from a VARIETY of ways… not just hope and pray embiid or giannis choo-choo-chooses the knicks…
that’s a very narrow and frankly dumb thread the needle kind of strategy that is doomed for failure…. it only really takes any number of things to go wrong… let alone injury…. in order for this thing to sink… all of those things turned out well last year and it was great but you have to get that every year from here on out from the same cast of characters… that’s a heavy lift….
That’s not my primary complaint.
My primary complaint is that Quickley is arguably the best two-way player on the team, still has upside, can play the backup 1 or starting/backup 2, and his minutes have been reduced in part because we have a surplus of guards with the addition of DDV. I also think it makes him more likely to be traded in a consolidation because DDV is part of the Villanova club. Maybe that’s more of a disagreement with Thibs than a disagreement with the DDV signing. I may not have been expressing myself well about the issue. But it makes no sense to me to reduce Quickley’s minutes. imo they should be increased over last year if we actually want to win more games.
Having a solid backup PF is just another issue I see with this team that will reveal itself on the occasional night that J-Hart is getting abused or when Randle gets hurt and we are trying to play with Mitch and Sims.
and hopefully so people can move on….
the biggest development in the league this year is not wemby… it’s chet…. who is probably actually better.. and while he won’t shoot 50% from 3 or 90% from the line… he is going to be really good….
and because of that… i think there’s a 50% shot that the thunder will be the best team in the west and might actually contend this year… i mean finals is a tough prediction for such a young team… but i don’t see how they won’t be a 50 win team this year….. and possibly 55 if either jalen williams and giddey take a step up….
this won’t top drafting 3 mvps…. but this is impressive…
I think we can be fairly certain management expected to draft someone last year using the Dallas pick, which is why they were willing to use a pick to bring in J-Hart. J-Hart filled a current need, but they still had the Dallas pick available. Then Dallas fell apart and tanked.
We are going to have two first round picks this year instead.
Plan A is still to try to sign a star before the deadline or in the off season (a few new names pop up almost every year) using some combination their own picks, excess picks, swaps, the Fournier contract and some combination of other players. If that falls through again, I’d expect them to draft at least one player this year and possibly two. But we know Fournier is still here as a trade asset. So they are looking to do something this year as a first option, even if it’s just an upgrade.
The greater issue you’re alluding to, strat, i.e. that the front office does not value IQ adequately, is indeed problematic.
And your preseason concerns about teams adapting to us have proven to be spot on. I have seen/heard people say “if the Knicks just made this shot or that shot they’d be 5-4 or 6-3.” Well, that’s not going to change. We’re a poor shooting team and we’re going to keep missing those shots.
It’s kinda of crazy, but it really does give credence to the idea that NBA coaches are procrastinators and the playoffs are the deadline that forces them to put in extra work.
For example, it seems like no one really tried to solve the Julius Randle problem in 2021 until the playoffs. After McMillan figured it out, everyone copied him the next year and Randle went through hell until he got help in the form of Brunson.
Likewise, it seems like no one really cared enough to figure out how to stop our 3rd-ranked offense when we were just one game out of 82. But come the playoffs, both Bickerstaff and Spoelstra rolled up their sleeves and got it done. And now that the book is written, everyone is going to use it.
I truly don’t get how the DDV signing can be construed as a negative for this team, other than the normal risks associated with any long-term deal.
The FO has been committed to the hybrid method of rebuilding since Day 1 when they hired the ultimate win-now coach in Thibs, with a strong emphasis of rebranding away from the debacles of the past. Any productive discussion of managerial decisions needs to be considered within that overarching framework. There have been both good and bad moves made in furtherance of that plan during the last 3+ years. But the goal has always been to re-brand the Knicks as a winning franchise that will a) entertain fans in the best traditions of the LunchPail Knicks, b) be attractive to high-level players who hit the market, and c) build and maintain a roster/cap/asset flexibility to “prudently” pounce on opportunities when they arise.
Locking up the likes of 26yo DDV at a mere 7-8% of the projected cap deal for 4 years is 100% consistent with those goals.
-in the short run, he will help the team win games, whether he plays 15, 20, or 25 mpg.
-assuming good health, his contract is very likely to be considered a positive asset, and at worst neutral salary filler in any consolidation trade going forward.
-he can be salary dumped at minimal cost if necessary, but it would never be necessary. Virtually any team would be happy to have him on his contract.
-he has been a starter in 127 of 280 games, mostly for the contending Bucks and Warriors. If there is a consolidation trade that requires IQ, Grimes, or both to be included, he can seamlessly slip into their roles and become a top-6 rotation player on a bargain contract.
Again, who gives a shit how many minutes he plays right now? Judging a quality rotation player’s contract solely on the basis of minutes played, or on how it affects other player’s minutes (other than at the extremes), is about as boring of an undertaking as I have ever seen on this site, especially given this team’s current managerial priorities.
I think the Thunder do have a shot this year especially if they add some beef. As it is right now if they run into Denver in the playoffs it’s going to be party over for them, Chet looks great but he has no chance against Nikola.
Hart had an outstanding playoff series against the team with the second best SRS/net rating in the NBA a few months ago, so this seems overstated.
That said, I do agree with the larger point I think you’re making, which is that in the NBA four quarters don’t equal a dollar. In other words, we’d be better off spending DDV and Hart’s combined money on one deserving ~$30M AAV player than on both of them, because it’s much easier to find guys who can at least come close to replicating their production on the cheap than it is to jerry-rig the production of a star.
Where you lose me is by not acknowledging the fact that this was simply not an option available to us this past offseason, so we would’ve been passing on Hart and/or DDV for a bag of magic beans. This only makes sense if you think Hart and/or DDV are actively detrimental to our overall position.
While I very well understand the idea that players can help us immediately but still be detrimental to our position, I think that’s a downright laughable proposition with regards to DDV. He makes too little and does too many in-demand things. Like I said, if this somehow comes back to bite us I’ll be here to take my lumps. But it won’t.
It’s closer with Hart, because he makes more and has a more niche skillset. I could entertain the idea that we may one day rue signing him. I’m still taking the under on that though. First of all I think we’ll want him around as long as we’re trying to win games anyway–he’s the kind of guy that’s more valuable as a rotation player than as a trade chip.
If we do need to trade him though, I still don’t think it’ll be a problem. I don’t buy that a contender wouldn’t toss us their garbage expirings for Josh Hart, but I do say that with lower confidence than I say it about DDV.
At the end of the day we’re trying to win games right now and Josh Hart unambiguously helps us do that. Next year he’ll make ~13% of the salary cap and we couldn’t have repurposed the money some other way. It’s just not a set of circumstances I see hurting us in the long-term.
I don’t think the Knicks are a great shooting team. But on KFS, a disconnect between the quality of shots taken (the Knicks were ranked pretty high) vs. shooting percentage was pretty extreme.
There has been a propensity for certain posters here to tout the ISM as being responsible for opponents’ low 3pt% even when large samples were concerned. Seems like the Knicks aren’t afforded the same courtesy when they miss quality shots. The immediate reaction is “opponents have figured us out!” rather than “seven games is a tiny sample, the shooting will come around!”
I mean, the Knicks had the 3rd ranked offense in the NBA last year over 82 games. They are currently 28th, with virtually the same roster and the same coach. Does anyone in their right mind actually think that they are going to continue to be anywhere near last in the NBA in 2pt%?
I think it is a best practice to not be angry about things that have not happened and may well never happen. There will be plenty of time to get made about an IQ trade if there is an IQ trade.
I do agree we should be getting Quickley more minutes on the merits. He’s at least arguably been our best player this year.
Thing is, DDV’s minutes don’t have to come at IQ’s expense. That’s the decision Thibs has made in the early going and I’m not going to bludgeon him for it (yet) because most teams are still figuring out their rotations to some extent.
But Quickley is at least getting close to forcing the issue re: being guaranteed 30 minutes a night, and if/when he does the extra minutes (which are only 6 per game as of now) should come at the expense of whoever is playing the worst of out of the DDV/Grimes/Hart/RJ group.
The Thunder might already be really good, and their long-term positioning might be the best in the NBA.
Half serious, half “it would warm my heart for non-serious reasons”: can we pry Poku from them?
If Wemby covers Mitch its gonna be hilarious watching him trying to keep Mitch from getting offensive rebs. I also think Randle should cover Wemby not Mitch, hate having Mitch cover a big who’s always gonna be camped out on the perimeter.
So far, this seems to be Grimes with Hart a fairly close 2nd. Hopefully they all turn it around because A. winning is good and B. you can’t trade guys nobody wants.
As to being figured out in the playoffs, I dunno. Last year the Knicks were pretty much a .500 team when you subtract out their 14-4 record vs. the teams with 35 or less wins (DET, HOU, CHA, ORL, WAS, IND, SAS). Seems like any playoff-level team had a pretty good read on us. If anything, it’s the Knicks who “figured out” the Cavs, and were then beaten by the team that “figured out” the Bucks, the Knicks and the Celtics.
we don’t have to do these kinds of deals… it’s perfectly acceptable to get slightly worse guys for cheaper and shorter contracts… that’s how most contenders do it… there’s no reason to lock in these guys for 4 to 5 years… you have the same ‘matching contracts’… but you also have the ability to 1)clear out the bad for low cost and retool without costing you much and 2)have more flexibility in trades in order to bring in more contracts and top flight talent.. who is going to want to take in long term contracts if they were trading for a star? what does that leave you in terms of trade options?
josh hart and donte will not be difference in how many games we win and how far we go in the playoffs…. josh hart outside of a game or two in the cavs series… was mostly invisible….
and guess what happens if Randle is not all-nba Randle? we are a .500 team… and we’d be apron’ed into a .500 team for the next 5 years… that’s not a risk? we’re looking at what our team is like under those conditions… you want to lock that in? oh we can just trade everyone? how many picks is that gonna cost us this time?
i mean look… it’s possible… not likely.l.. that we get the same kind of performances from everyone on this team for the foreseeable future… but odds are against it…. people get hurt… people lose their shot… skills deteroriate… that’s the life of +/- 1bpm players…. that’s the julius randle experience….
locking that in voluntarily has always been a dumb strategy…. the hornets did it and relied on batum to be kemba’s sidekick along with a host of role players…. batum was not that guy reliably despite all of kemba’s efforts… the role players had volatile years… their team went to the dustbin….
we’re not exactly like that… but it sure does rhyme…. for better or worse this is the team for the foreseeable future….. you might be cool with it now.. but i imagine it’s not gonna be cool later….
“Where you lose me is by not acknowledging the fact that this was simply not an option available to us this past offseason, so we would’ve been passing on Hart and/or DDV for a bag of magic beans. This only makes sense if you think Hart and/or DDV are actively detrimental to our overall position.
While I very well understand the idea that players can help us immediately but still be detrimental to our position, I think that’s a downright laughable proposition with regards to DDV. He makes too little and does too many in-demand things.”
Very well said. And I fully agree with your take on Josh Hart. Likely an overpay for a guy his age and with his warts, but I’ll go with Steve Kerr on why I’m okay with it:
-Josh Hart is projected to top out at 12.8% of the cap.
-DDV will top out at 8.1% of the cap.
-Batum topped out with CHA at 23.6% of the cap, when he earned $24M in 2018-19 and the cap was $101.9. When they waived and stretched him, it resulted in a dead cap hit of nearly $9 million for 3 years. CHA never won a playoff series with Batum on the roster, and never even made the playoffs after they signed him to a 4-year guaranteed deal for over 20% of the cap.
I wish Knox nothing but the best, and hope at some point he becomes consistent enough from downtown that he can at least be somebody’s 10th man. He always seemed like a good kid who suffered from both bad advice (leaving Kentucky a year earlier than he should have) and winding up in a terrible organization with an incompetent coach. I’m not sure there is a circumstance where a guy with his lack of coordination and court awareness could have ever been molded into a real NBA player, but this sure wasn’t it.
Great at 3-on-3, though.
Isn’t playing .500 vs teams with winning records and beating the shitty teams what good teams are supposed to do? That’s basically the formula for winning 50 games which is close to what the Knicks did last season.
Contenders do this because cheap, short deals are often the only options available to them. When they do have access to the MLE or similar money due to Bird Rights, they lock up their backend rotation players all the time e.g. Strus, Hachimura, Poole, McDaniels, Duncan Robinson, and Aaron Gordon just to name a few off the top of my head.
Contenders would obviously prefer to lock up reliable backend rotations players rather than hope they hit on flyers every year, and I think it’s actually a good idea for us to lock these guys in before we reach the point where we can’t spend real money anymore.
Again, to disagree you have to think DDV and Hart are active impediments. The case for that just seems so weak to me when you consider the alternatives, or more importantly the lack thereof.
It’s more like they don’t put in the extra work because the juice isn’t worth the squeeze:
1. It’s one game.
2. The changes you put in place to stop the Knicks then have to be undone the next game anyway.
3. Your changes might not work.
4. If you’re on the 4th game of a 6 game road trip, you might want to just give your players the time to go out and chase women rather than keep them for a 2-hour film session and get them pissed off at you.
Etc., etc.
Then, yeah, when the playoffs come none of these things are things anymore.
This is really stupid.
“Isn’t playing .500 vs teams with winning records and beating the shitty teams what good teams are supposed to do? That’s basically the formula for winning 50 games which is close to what the Knicks did last season.”
Absolutely! The larger point is that 50 win teams are generally not expected to get past the second round of the playoffs. We weren’t the 58-win Bucks, or the 57-win Celts. Nor were we the 64-win Suns or 56-win Grizz of the previous year. We weren’t some kind of capped-out regular season juggernaut that flopped in the playoffs because some team cleverly figured us out. We got about as far as any reasonable analysis of our roster would have expected.
“This is really stupid.”
who farted?
at some lull in the action…could we do just the briefest of brief: gardenblogger
talk about synergy…i’ve been having that old man in the garden time the last week or so…it’s beautiful outside, best weather of the year…crazy number of birds around…
put in an arch to try some jasmine…
been wrestling with the rose bush for over a week…unless there’s some planting or construction stuff going on – I like to let it go wild…need to do a better job going forward at pruning and harvesting everything…
i do got good soil though, and a crazy amount of sun…lots and lots of sun…
We’ve won all the games Randle has shot over 30% from the field and lost all the games he’s shot under 30%.
The “We’d have a winning record if we shot better” isn’t asking our team to be deadeye shooters it’s asking a player one year removed from an all-NBA team to not be the worst player in NBA history.
To put it in perspective, bad Randle shot 41% from the floor two years ago. If you adjust Randle’s fg% to 40% in each game and adjust the final scores to reflect that, we’d be 5-1-1.
We don’t even need good Randle with back, we need Randle to be worse than his worst season ever (but only by a little).
are there any numbers yet to show how josh has done at the power forward position…
i missed the clippers game – was he playing the four with the bench?
come on… only hachimura was signed with him taking up the rear in the rotation… all of the rest of those guys were signed while they were or with the intention of them being starters… almost all of them still starts …. aaron gordon had the 4th highest usg on the team and been a starter for years now…. Strus got his deal and starts for the Cavs.. Duncan Robinson started while leading the league in 3pt shooting… McDaniels starts for the wolves… Poole started for the warriors…
Hart and Donte .. do… not.. start….
completely not understanding… they are not active impediments NOW…. and maybe next year they might not be…. but years 3… 4 and 5? it’s more than probable that either 1 or both of them severely disappoints and becomes pretty hard to move….
there’s no reason to lock these guys in… none… what does donte add that you needed to add on all that risk down the line? oh it’s only 9% of the cap? how much of the cap were the burks and noel and kemba deals? and those were just one year left… how easy was that to unwind?
the logic is that these guys are good and will forever be good… and since i’m right about that…. it makes no sense to not commit whatever you need for good guys who will be forever good…. that’s what you are saying … and that is a very silly statement….
Just going to co-sign everything that TNFH writes from now on.
I hope we keep Quickley. I will mourn when we trade him. But until we do I am going to enjoy his performance and not try to read the entrails as to whether he is on his way out or not.
Mitch may be the only guy in the NBA who can block a Wemby jumpshot. I am seriously excited to watch the game tonight.
I have often felt there is some quantum of performance effect in the NBA. Some players will produce a similar amount year to year although how they do it changes, as if they have a certain amount of production in them, uh, intrinsically.
The Knicks are doing that so far. They are what they are even though they have done it completely backwards, being the best defensive team in the NBA so far after being almost the best offensive team last year.
To me it’s been strangely enjoyable to watch. It’s been a mess but I like this team, even with all its flaws. Once you make your peace with them not going the full rebuild, the grass is actually greener than expected.
The Mitch from Owen’s icon would have thrown Wemby’s shit into the third row. I doubt if he can do it now though.
My whole post is about how he doesn’t need to be one
The Knicks dumped a totally washed Kemba Walker, a totally washed Nerlens Noel, and a market value role player in Alec Burks (around 24% of the salary cap in 2022-23 salary) for a marginal change in actuarial draft pick value (according to pt), and did so in a pinch on a moment’s notice, so that they could pursue a desired opportunity while maintaining a favorable salary cap position i.e. without dead cap or cutting young players.
(cue the cherry-picking brigade…)
I mean, you’re shifting between “1-2 BPM players” and “starters.” The former is solely an indicator of production, while the latter depends largely on a player’s team.
Everyone I listed falls into the “1-2 BPM players” category, in fact in many cases this is actually a generous description of the listed players.
This raises the question, if DDV and Hart were exactly the same but existed in a world where for whatever reason the Knicks were less deep, so in this fake world they were “starters,” would you have fewer objections? That seems extremely arbitrary!
The alternative to Josh Hart was using a first round pick that likely would have been in the mid teens if we hadn’t traded it for Hart.
I don’t know why we keep lumping DDV and Hart together. Two totally different scenarios.
djphan, “other midlevel-ish contracts have been bad, therefore the contracts for DDV and Hart are bad” is not a convincing argument.
I was bitching about the Noel deal the second it was signed, because centers are fungible and Noel wasn’t particularly good. This doesn’t have implications for DDV and Hart, who are not centers and are better than him.
As for whether they’ll be good “forever”…I mean, obviously the hell not. But you account for the possibility of age related decline whenever you sign a contract. DDV is 26. Hart is 28. If you want to make the case that this is a disqualifying risk in either or both of their cases, go ahead and make it, but I’m not seeing it.
I am responding to djphan, who is lumping them together. I already said I agree that Hart comes with more risk and I can understand skepticism about his place on the team. I just don’t share it because 1) he’s good and 2) I don’t think we’re trading him anyway.
The DDV stuff I simply do not understand at all. He makes no money and does stuff that all teams want all the time.
Hart was huge in us winning a playoff series. Where is this coming that him or DDV can’t help us come playoff time?
Seems like if you can wrap up a healthy mid-prime player who single-handedly dropped your team 8 draft slots while electrifying the fan base and helping them win their first playoff series in a decade on a 12% of the cap deal, you should do it…
The Knicks’ salary structure is indeed weird…excluding rookie scale players, the range in salaries is less than $20M. Barring a trade or outsized contract for next year, same.
i haven’t shifted anything… i haven’t even stated 1-2 bpm players anywhere… it’s +/-1 bpm players…. so i don’t know where are you grabbing these quotes…. you were the one who mentioned these guys who happen to be starters … not me… i’m just pointing out that they are starters.. you are trying to equate guys who’s teams made heavy investments in them to fulfill roles that both Hart and Donte are not even remotely filling… the minutes and impact are like night and day…
and as we demonstrated with EB who was kind enough to show us all…. nobody but the Detroit Pistons spends the money that we do for the 8th and 9th guys on the team….
first.. Donte is 27… second … these are 4 and 5 year deals…. there was no discount in aav that was “accounted” for…. they were given the most that could afforded…. that’s it…. that’s all irrelevant anyway… the whole “they are good players and so it always makes sense to get good players” DOES NOT HOLD for every year of these 4-5 year deals…. so there is every bit of a world where they turn into bad investments….
so let’s not repeat that like only this year matters…. the issue is that we didn’t even add any wins to this season in return for added risk later on…. that is the issue…. these 4 and 5 year deals do not come as a free lunch and only as dolan dollars.. .the risk is that you’re apron’ed into a team that is very far from contention.. and possibly just a .500 team…
27?????
OMG HE IS A GEEZER!
It is a well known fact that the moment a role player turns 30, his 3 point shooting percentage drops 10 percent.
Donte DiVincenzo was born on January 31, 1997. He is 26 years-old, albeit with an additional 281 days.
My apologies but most of the guys I listed fit that description as well! You keep raising the fact that they were signed to be starters, but again, all that means is that 1ish BPM players are starters on other teams, but not the Knicks. I don’t think we should stop trying to acquire good-ish players just because we have a bunch already, and DDV and Hart are much more likely to be good-ish than the Kellys Oubre of the world.
If you think the risk of age-related decline is inexcusably high in either case, say so. I’m just not seeing it. I think Hart will be able to rebound with the best of them when he’s 31 and Donte will be able to shoot and defend opposing guards when he’s 29.
This is the most dubious thing you’ve said so far. Without these two guys we’re, say, a Quickley rolled ankle away from disaster. I think our depth is actually key to our regular season win total.
that totally reminded me of something principal Benjamin Krupp would say…
then i remembered you was a principal…hmmmmmmmm…any not yet mentioned superpowers there z-man….
you don’t have to stop trying to acquire good-ish players…. you just don’t have to spend the most money and the most years in order to do so… we don’t need a ferrari to grab groceries once a week…. kelly oubre is just fine.. and actually kind of helps us in certain defensive matchups and positional flexibility and helps on some usage issues for the second unit… there’s countless other examples… and even if it were a mistake it would NEVER EVER be a big one for guys that are play EIGHTEEN MINUTES a game…
you want this effort on actual GOOD players… like OG or someone in that class.. that can potentially make a decent sized difference… or if you choose to take a risk like this go for someone who’s going to start for you….
what would be a BIG mistake is if Donte gets hurt… or if he loses his shot… or any number of things could happen… Evan Fournier had a much longer track record as a starter and he was exiled at 29… is that impossible for Donte?
do i need to say it for the 20th or 21st time? it’s a cost benefit question… you think the cost is free and so why give up free money? everyone loves free money.. ‘you’re stupid for not taking free money’… yea if you think in this narrow a fashion of course everything you hear must sound so stupid….
there is another perpsective tho! i do not think it’s free… and the benefit is actually quite low…. not nothing.. but injury insurance is like really really low on this team’s list of priorities esp when its this young…. preparing for a trade is the ultimate counting your chickens before it roosts kind of thinking that is just asking for it to backfire…. and also a very dumb reason….
it does not add any marginal wins… it’s insurance against a guy who might provide a win or two from going down… that we don’t outright lose that win or two from their contribution if they do… but it doesn’t really turn us from a .500 team to an upper echelon team… that is how you act when you think you’ve already arrived… and we haven’t…. we’re not contenders under any definition of that word….
The Knicks played well for two games in a row (yes there were signs of them getting their groove back against the Bucks as well) and Wemby is in town today. Maybe enjoy it for once, instead of bitching about 2m a year difference for a good role player in his prime.
Other teams did it. But given where the conversation went it didn’t feel worthwhile to go through the 2nd half of the NBA.
Rui Hachimura and Matisse Thybulle who don’t count because $11M isn’t $11M if you’re a RFA or played on the same team last year.
Then there’s Chris Boucher, who Masai signed to a 3yr/$35M contract, played 20.0394736842 mpg that first season.
Unfortunately, that’s 0.0394736842 mpg over the limit and so doesn’t count.
I agree with you. That’s a better attitude to take than mine. I do think the probabilities have changed though. Signing DDV makes Quickley more expendable in the eyes of management and Thibs based on the non extension and minutes so far.
It’s clear that ultimately we need a serious upgrade at some position to become contenders. The only reason I would add still another somewhat duplicative role player would be if he was on such a huge bargain contract we could use it as part of trade for an upgrade later. I agree with djphan in that I think there are diminishing returns on some of these role player additions. I think the Hart move added more wins than the DDV move. Next move has to be for a serious upgrade (other than maybe adding a backup PF)
The Clippers just turned a bunch of aging vets and a couple picks into a 5+ BPM player who led the league in apg last year.
(BTW, RoCo signed a $24M extension prior to 2022 when he played 16mpg)
and hopefully so people can move on…
Wonder why THAT did not WORK…As darules says, Wemby is in town. Only time of the season (unless we meet in the finals). Enjoy it.
Players don’t just get hurt in the regular season. Immanuel Quickley missed the last 3 games of the Heat series. Grimes played through injury.
One more good player could’ve been the difference between winning and losing that series. Donte could’ve been the difference between a mezzanine team and a contender.
Injury insurance was a very real need.
I will take everyone advice and enjoy the game with my friends at msg… I hope everyone else takes a chill pill… I promise someone elses basketball opinions won’t ever ruin your life if you don’t let it…
so are we gonna start with mitch or randle on wemby? i am guessing the latter but the former would be more fun.
pt why are you talking about tonights game and not a draft pick we fucked up 3 years ago
wemby wemby wemby!!!
oh wait, are we supposed to be rooting for the knucks tonight…
Edit: yeah, I’m keeping the typo…the new york knucks…
I’m not worried about Quickley’s minutes distribution versus DDV’s. Quickley is getting enough minutes that other teams can probably see how good he is if they want to trade for him and if they don’t, that will probably make it easier for us to re-sign him.
I also can’t see the argument that signing DDV hurt us. He is a bit like Burks who can also defend and shoot, and, from posts above, he makes half as much as a percentage of the cap. Of course I wish we had signed someone with more impact, but maybe that wasn’t available.
Definitely mitch on wemby….thibs ain’t thinking outside the box
I bet you Barrett gets blocked tonight.
https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/38844003/victor-wembanyama-san-antonio-spurs-madison-square-garden-debut