[news.google.com] — Monday, June 26, 2023 4:56:40 AM
The Milwaukee Bucks are seen as a potential landing spot for free agent guard Derrick Rose Sports Illustrated
[news.google.com] — Sunday, June 25, 2023 11:12:25 PM
Knicks Star Shares Incredible Kobe Bryant Story Sports Illustrated
[news.google.com] — Sunday, June 25, 2023 9:00:00 PM
Lakers News: LA Listed As Landing Spot For Former MVP Guard In Free Agency Sports Illustrated
[news.google.com] — Sunday, June 25, 2023 8:54:00 PM
Former Indiana men’s basketball’s Race Thompson signs NBA … Indiana Daily Student
[news.google.com] — Sunday, June 25, 2023 5:18:34 PM
New York Liberty Conjure Thrilling, OT Comeback vs Washington … Sports Illustrated
[news.google.com] — Sunday, June 25, 2023 5:00:17 PM
Zach LaVine-Knicks trade idea actually wouldn’t be complete disaster Daily Knicks
[news.google.com] — Sunday, June 25, 2023 2:39:41 PM
Race Thompson to play for New York Knicks in NBA Summer League Inside the Hall
[news.google.com] — Sunday, June 25, 2023 2:35:45 PM
Indiana basketball: Race Thompson on Knicks NBA Summer League roster IndyStar
[news.google.com] — Sunday, June 25, 2023 2:30:00 PM
Fact Check: Is Paul George getting traded to Knicks? Debunking trade rumors about Clippers superstar Sportskeeda
[news.google.com] — Sunday, June 25, 2023 2:06:20 PM
Liberty’s Breanna Stewart Named WNBA All-Star, Captain Sports Illustrated
[news.google.com] — Sunday, June 25, 2023 1:46:17 PM
Former IU basketball forward Race Thompson with Knicks for NBA Summer League The Daily Hoosier
[news.google.com] — Sunday, June 25, 2023 1:42:48 PM
Race Thompson to play with New York Knicks in NBA Summer … BVM Sports
[news.google.com] — Sunday, June 25, 2023 1:26:11 PM
Indiana’s Race Thompson to Play For Knicks’ Las Vegas Summer … Sports Illustrated
[news.google.com] — Sunday, June 25, 2023 1:05:44 PM
Who Should Play For Knicks Summer League Squad? Sports Illustrated
[news.google.com] — Sunday, June 25, 2023 12:51:00 PM
NBA analyst comes up with trade that sends Damian Lillard to Knicks Sportskeeda
[news.google.com] — Sunday, June 25, 2023 12:04:00 PM
Knicks and Josh Hart agree to delay decision on player option until Thursday Posting and ToastingSources – Josh Hart, Knicks to extend player option deadline – ESPN ESPNKnicks make big Josh Hart decision amid NBA free agency ClutchPoints
[news.google.com] — Sunday, June 25, 2023 10:00:01 AM
Should the Knicks trade for a star this offseason or hold onto their assets? Daily Knicks
[news.google.com] — Sunday, June 25, 2023 9:19:51 AM
Knicks could pry ‘certainly available’ Paul George from Clippers Empire Sports Media
[news.google.com] — Sunday, June 25, 2023 8:00:38 AM
Predicting where each New York Knicks free agent will play in 2023 … Daily Knicks
145 replies on “Knicks Morning News (2023.06.26)”
I won’t weigh in on what’s been said already in this tedious discussion beyond throwing my lot in with the loose coalition of ptmilo, TNFH, strat, JK47, Raven, BBA, EB, etc.
Some additional points:
It seems pretty clear that the Knicks fully expected the DAL pick to convey. If not, it would have made more sense to offer that pick over their own top-14 protected pick, which I would imagine that POR would have accepted at the time. So the notion that they wanted to trade out of the draft seems absurd; they just rolled the dice on the DAL pick being the better one to retain and lost.
And had the DAL pick conveyed, it would not have been used on Cam Whitmore. Does anyone really think that he would have been the pick, given this FO’s emhasis on character, work ethic, and durability? Teams with notoriously good GMs…OKC, TOR, MIA, UTA…passed on him for not meeting their standards on that front, nor did anyone try to trade up or in to draft him as he dropped. It’s ludicrous to make the argument about him in any way whatsoever.
Looks like we got a Thompson after all, it’s just that it’s not Amen or Ausar, it’s Race Thompson! 😛 Time to analyze this type of fringe prospects to be ready for summer league! 😀
And the argument isn’t about Josh Hart being worth a lottery-protected first, is it? It’s really about the perceived value of breaking the schneid of not winning a single playoff series in a decade. Because that’s what the trade accomplished at a minimum.
Personally, I’m a big believer in the “utility” of culture-building, including that of establishing a culture of winning. Case in point: even with the family connections, I doubt that Jalen Brunson chooses to come here if he thinks this is a likely lottery team that was fully dedicated to rebuilding through a bean counter’s approach to the draft. And his reaction to learning that the team just acquired Josh Hart pretty much said it all. He knew that Hart would significantly add to that culture of winning.
That doesn’t mean that one should automatically buy in to that approach, or to every decision that Leon is making in the furtherance of that approach. But it doesn’t make sense to ignore that context and to treat Hart as a “fungible” player. He brings more to the chosen approach than just his numbers. He is a perfect representative for what this team is trying to build, and a perfect complement to what Brunson brings. And we saw that play out in his 25 regular season games and his 11 playoff games. So personally, I couldn’t give a shit about who we missed out on because Dallas ingloriously tanked their way to the #10 pick.
As i said yesterday, i think both sides have a point, but in my case i was in need of a playoff series win, and if we remember it correctly after sending the Cavs home, we were favored to go to the ECF. It’s only the second time since 2000 that we can dream of going to the ECF, and i think we need more of that, year in and year out, even if going to the 2nd round is mezzanine or whatever, i prefer it to the days of Hornacek, Fizdale, and so on. And we have the assets to grab a big fish, so we’re playing the python approach and that’s the thing, until the prey is in our sight, we have to wait.
In the hopes of pushing us away from yet another subject that keeps consuming all the oxygen around here while getting absolutely nowhere, some Knotable Knicks Knews:
1. All accounts are that Leon wants to avoid the Knicks being a tax team this year, which makes sense when we’re not a contender yet. If Hart ultimately chooses to opt-in and then extend, that gives us the full non-taxpayer mid-level this year, if we want to use it, and also allows us to keep Sims and Deuce. If nothing else, those guys are useful In Case of Emergency players, and preferable to many other end-of-the-benchers we’ve had lately.
2. Steve Popper says that DRose is unlikely to come back, since he wants to find a team where he can be in the rotation. Good.
3. Related to that, Macri wrote the following in today’s newsletter:
On the one hand, top 50 feels way too generous to a guy who was a disaster in his first season here, and was, as he says, basically only great for less than half a season. On the other, I remember when Macri did his countdown of the 50 best Knicks ever (last summer, maybe?), and the guys near the bottom were already pretty sketchy. Sad fact is, we haven’t had a ton of great players, and/or we haven’t had a ton of players who were good here for an extended period of time.
Just reading about Race Thompson. He played for Woodson at Indiana. Maybe there was some communication between Woodson and the Knicks.
And summer league starts July 7! Man, is time flying.
No matter how many times it’s wheeled out of the nursing home, all wheezy and shit, “They wouldn’t have drafted him anyway” remains a quintessential non-defense.
There’s no real “value” in that, “perceived” or otherwise. Other than on the “Knick curve,” it’s a non-accomplishment. Continually citing it like some kind of security blanket makes the Knick fanbase sound like a bunch of rubes.
Beating Cleveland in 5 was nice and fun and obviously better than an alternative scenario of losing to Cleveland in 5. It has no basketball big picture meaning beyond that.
Sure he does.
We have this “treasure trove” of assets and we have to justify sending one pick out for Josh Hart? We have been and are building through the draft.
Also, I’m still trying to make sense of the Jacob Toppin thing. He may be better than Chris Smith, but by all accounts, he’s a non-prospect. So the only reason you sign him to a two-way is as part of the whole Leon/Wes “family” approach to team-building. Yet all the reporting is that those two have agreed to find Obi a new home this offseason. Unless the idea is that it’s a transactional signing? i.e., “We’ll give your brother a contract that no NBA team would, and in exchange, you stick around and continue to play the good soldier.”
It’s some kind of payoff or favor to the CAA/Kentucky thing the Knicks have going and which the Knicks always have going because with the Knicks under current ownership it’s never just about basketball.
And then they and we wonder why they can’t really compete with the franchises where it is just about basketball ….
You mean you won’t “weigh in” even though you “weighed in” twice? Last night when your bait got no bite and then about 12 hours later when you posted the exact same thing hoping for a bite? That “not weighing in”?
It’s really about the perceived value of breaking the schneid of not winning a single playoff series in a decade.
I think this nails it. And it goes to the heart of what “contend” means to a Knicks fan today. When I called E out yesterday for his statement that the Knicks didn’t contend I had my Knicks hat on (he didn’t–if he even has one). But perhaps a more objective take (you take the same fact pattern but don’t know it is the Knicks) would at least show room for debate on what contend means.
A case in point: On Feb 6, Dallas was tied for 5th (half game from 7th) with a 29-26 record and traded for Kyrie. On Feb 9, we were 7th with a 30-26 record and traded for Josh. After playing 81 games, we comfortably made the playoffs, with most posters thinking the season would be a success if we won a playoff series. After playing 81 games, Dallas, facing at best a play-in game, decided to write-off the season most likely because they didn’t see a likely WCF repeat appearance.
Forgetting about the fact that Leon doesn’t value draft picks highly–can you imagine the outcry if he had ordered the Knicks to lose the last game if it meant not qualifying for a play-in game?
I think, but I couldn’t confirm this, that a two way contract is not a long term contract in the sense that the team can get out of it just by waiving the player. So my instinct is that the Knicks may have signed Jacob Toppin so that he can play in the summer league. This will give him a lot of visibility to all the NBA teams and to teams from other leagues that scout for prospects at summer league. Maybe that’s a family favor, but it’s a relatively small one. Of course, the Knicks will see what he does too, but if they have someone better they don’t have to keep him.
Chill people, there’s three slots for 2-way contracts under the new CBA. So now, to waste a slot on a bad prospect is not that big of a problem, we still have the other two to try good prospects. And to be frank, i don’t think we have a history of having good prospects on 2-way contracts. Besides Sims, and maybe Alonzo Trier, did anybody else get promoted to the main roster with success?
If you really believe this, then I expect to never read a post from you again until the Knicks make the Finals. Because apparently every game up until that point is meaningless.
This is utter bullshit. Sports is entertainment. We watch it to be entertained. The point of the game isn’t to maximize our draft picks and salaries and assets. It’s to win fucking basketball games and, ultimately, a championship.
You can’t skip the line and just put together a team of players and win a championship. Teams have to grow. GM’s and coaches have to win games and lose games and figure out what they need to do to make THE TEAM better. You only do that by reaching a certain level and then hitting a ceiling.
You’re basically saying that it’s ok to put on Avenger’s Endgame, skip to the final battle, watch it to find out how it ends and that would be totally fine because all that matters is the final result of winning a title.
Sounds like a confession that there’s a “Knicks curve,” BE. There’s nothing wrong with that; it’s just not my premise when I armchair GM the team.
“Forgetting about the fact that Leon doesn’t value draft picks highly–can you imagine the outcry if he had ordered the Knicks to lose the last game if it meant not qualifying for a play-in game?”
I would have applauded it, as it would have been the right move.
Didn’t we have some kind of discussion about tanking to get the Wizards’ pick or something like that at some point last season? Or even losing on purpose to the Wiz in a play-in game? Something like that.
Nothing like a Monday morning where E going Full Metal Asshole…
Continually citing it like some kind of security blanket makes the Knick fanbase sound like a bunch of rubes.
So now I am a rube. Much appreciated
The other franchises don’t judge success this way. That fact puts the Knicks at a distinct disadvantage.
There’s nothing to celebrate in trading a 1 for a Josh Hart in order to win a playoff series and then have him play like crap in the second playoff series and then pay him retail and then go oh the season was a success they won a playoff series finally.
Someone has to report the cold, hard facts. I guess that obligation falls here. Plenty of time for former philosophical allies to come in from the cold.
Are we really suprised?
E literally doesn’t post for weeks on end when we’re on win streaks and then shows up the moment we lose a game.
E, can i ask you what teams out of the 30 NBA teams, you agree should be trying to win? Because by record the Knicks were 8th overall and shouldn’t be trying to win by your standards. Cavs were 5th but they lost to those bums, the Knicks, so they shouldn’t be trying to win too, i suppose.
I think no matter what anyone thinks about Leon’s approach, he does not appear to be going anywhere any time soon. I believe that ownership and the fanbase are both satisfied with where the team is. I think most fan bases would be happy to be where the Knicks are. I know that Hornet fans certainly would be.
I’m fine with the Knicks “trying to win,” within reason. They aren’t a tear down. Yet, anyway.
They’re also nowhere near a team that should be trading 1s three straight years. They’re also nowhere near a team that should be employing two LCHBs at major wing minutes. Trading a 1 for a second LCHB was stupid. The end of the world? No. Stupid? Yes.
I strongly co-sign the idea that winning a playoff series has utility, beyond the accumulation of fond memories (which, on a separate note, I think is being blithely discounted. I mean I tend to be a cold-hearted rationalist when it comes to sports fandom, but I can’t fathom assigning literally zero value to Knicks’ performance in the 2023 playoffs when evaluating the trade).
Our plan revolves around making star players want to come here. We’ve all said our piece as to the wisdom of this plan versus a more traditional rebuild, but at the time of the Hart trade the plan was very much already in motion such that “don’t make the trade because the larger plan is bad” wasn’t really a coherent position.
Winning a playoff series is absolutely the kind of thing that can influence the decision of a star player. It’s impossible to say whether it will literally be the swing factor in such a decision, but NBA history and common sense indicates it can absolutely have utility.
I’m both a big fan and a cold-hearted rationalist.
To every thing, there is a season.
The “attracting a star player” delta between winning in the first round and losing in the first round is marginal. It’s certainly not worth a bad trade. Is Cleveland now materially less likely to attract a star player than if they’d instead won the Knicks’ series? I see no basis for this conclusion. Since it’s impossible to really measure, but instead has to be intuited and proxied, expect the discussion to continue.
In terms of the trade off, I’d give up the 2023 playoffs for true contention in 2025 and 2026. If you’d been to the Rangers’ 2022 playoff games, you’d understand. But I agree that’s a personal preference. The other alternative is to just take each year as its own experience and eventually the experiences add up to whatever they add up to, and I get that. It’s just not my perspective.
TNFH, exactly.
And just to clarify re: Cam Whitmore, my point about him was NOT to defend the strategy per se, only to say that if you are going to pine over who they could have picked if the pick wasn’t traded away, cherry pick someone who there was actually a chance that they might have picked, given the reality of their drafting proclivities. Whitmore would be a hard no, as he was for the Heat, Thunder, Raps, Jazz, etc. Ther soundness of passing over him as they surely would have is a valid thing to discuss, but there is no doubt that they would have passed over him. Does anyone disagree with this?
“Other teams do not celebrate winning playoff series” is not a take that would stand up to scrutiny.
From Sam Amick’s latest notebook: https://theathletic.com/4640012/2023/06/26/nba-free-agency-news-rumors-damian-lillard-james-harden/
Assuming Father Time hasn’t caught up with Jimmy quite yet, a core of him, Dame, and Bam, plus all those Heat Culture success stories, would be very, very scary.
I think it’s totally legit to openly question Leon’s approach to team building versus a full, draft-oriented rebuild. I think it’s also perfectly cromulent to question if Thibs’ system (traditional defensive center, extreme minutes for his starters, iso offense, etc.) can succeed in the NBA.
What isn’t cool is taking a victory lap right after a pick traded like 3 months ago gets made, even though we currently have zero data points on the draftees taken 23rd or lower (or 18th or whatever).
We get it: You would have preferred a down-to-the-studs rebuild. I think most people here would’ve preferred that. Dolan, who likes playoff revenue, did not prefer that. So we got Leon.
But grandstanding by holding up how we didn’t win a chip (never mind that 28 other teams didn’t either) as proof that Leon and Co. are dumber than you is disingenuous at best.
“Since it’s impossible to really measure, but instead has to be intuited and proxied…”
Sort of like RJ’s value as a player…oh wait, it actually IS possible to really measure….every available metric says he has sucked! But one poster in particular likes to intuit and proxy him to greatness based on his ability to miss more shots than nearly everyone else in the league…
“Other teams don’t measure success by ‘winning a playoff series'” stands up proud and tall and irresolute to scrutiny.
E is soaking way too much usage on this board. I wish there was a way to tag comments on his posts, so I could skip them too. Something like a Warning: Comment to E tag.
i understand that yea series wins matter… but that’s a far leap to saying that a bench player is a key piece to making that happen….. it was a 5-game series… do we lose the series without josh hart?
again… what you guys are missing is that these things do not have to be mutually exclusive… we could have very easily won a playoff series without josh hart…
we had the second best playoff defense.. but guess who was first? the cavs! we didn’t exactly set the world on fire advancing in 5 games…
and i cannot believe we are actually sitting saying that winning a playoff series is some key to attracting a star? who is this star? damian lillard? bradley beal? zion williamson? paul george? zach lavine?
we’ve discussed these ad nauseam.. they are all either very flawed… or flat out wanted to go somewhere else… this whole argument about winning a playoff series to attract a star is akin to believing in god… because it’s some theoretical future carrot for a star to be led to mecca…
it’s unprovable.. unknowable… and likely does not even exist… and it’s not useful at all to the discussion….
it’s like saying we got leon rose to attract stars and free agents only we have to keep doing favors and paying some sort of tax in order to do so…
you don’t get it…. and not listening/reading is why this keeps going in circles….
leon rose gonna leon rose… but the hybrid approach does not necessitate trading first rd picks for bench players! or burning picks for nothing! or trading a bunch of picks so you can sign hartenstein… nothing in the hybrid approach makes you do any of those things!
you can judge these moves ENTIRELY IN ISOLATION without even uttering the words hinkie and think these are pretty terrible moves…. you don’t have to agree with it either! the vibez are so fucking awesome i get it! but you’re not understanding! try to understand!
Because I AM actually skipping all of E’s excessive trolling efforts to derail our conversation and make it all about him, because him him him —
Allan, I’ve been fascinated by the Toppin thing. It seems bizarre to take someone’s brother, especially a brother who doesn’t seem very good (although perhaps the next slam dunk champion), if you’re going to just trade the other guy.
I can’t help but think that this is a message to Obi that you’re safe. But that seems like a bizarre thing to do, given his current situation on the team. I mean, out of the thousands of mediocre players out there, why take another Toppin?
I skipped over most of Macri’s list so I don’t know who all was there, not that I’d have known them anyways, but being the 2nd best player on a playoff team feels like it shouldn’t carry that much weight when you lose in 5.
I’ll say in his support that Rose had a 4.3 BPM for that series and a 2.4 BPM for his 35 regular season games.
But Hart came in and put up 3.4 BPM and his playoff BPM would look much different if we cut it off after round 1. He’s getting penalized because our team was good enough to win.
Marcus Morris had a 1.8 OBPM, and I struggle to believe that BPM is correctly characterizing Rose as being a much better defender.
Lin put up a 3.8 BPM in 35 games but the team didn’t make the playoffs that year.
In our last deep playoff run year, Kidd led our team in regular season BPM playing 76 games and 2000 minutes.
Pablo Prigioni had our highest playoff BPM. By VORP it was Melo followed by Raymond Felton. (Shump, Prigs, & KMart were an additional 3 other players with better BPMs & VORPs at least as good as this year’s RJ for some perspective)
None of the above makes me think all-time great Knicks outside of Lin, which has more to do with sentiment and narrative than him being a great contributor.
As good as Rose was, I think it was too short a time and without any significant result to put him in the pantheon just because he was the 2nd best player on a playoff team that felt like it relied on having a solid group 1-9 to get things done.
On the other hand, he did come back and put together another great half season the following year before his injury. The combo of dislike for personal reasons, his 1st stint, and contract reasons perhaps tints the anti-Rose colored glasses a bit too much for me. He was very good.
I don’t believe we would have been the 5 seed without the Hart trade.
I think the Jacob Toppin signing is a bribe to try to keep Obi happy, which probably means he’s not going anywhere this summer.
Impossible to say for sure, but Hart almost certainly improved our seed and thus got us a better matchup, and in the series Josh “unplayable in the playoffs” Hart averaged 11.6/7.8 with a .645 TS% while primarily guarding Donovan Mitchell, who put up a .518 TS% in the series in what I’m sure E thinks is one big coincidence.
Contra E, I never came close to saying winning the series closes the book on discussions of the trade. However assigning it zero value is just as extreme as saying it ends the debate in favor of the trade. I mean, the whole point of this enterprise is to win playoff games!
I almost always enjoy our discussions even when we disagree, but gotta say this rubbed me the wrong way a bit, because I didn’t come close to saying it. I said it could absolutely be a factor, which quite frankly is not remotely controversial.
I’m not a Macri’s subscriber anymore and maybe it’s true that the bottom of his top-50 list was sketchy (BTW Brunson and Randle must already be new entries), but Rose’s first stint here was terrible and honestly he didn’t play enough for me to be in the top-50 even if his half-season after the trade was better than expected.
DJ, without Hart, and because he played out of his mind when he got here, i think there’s a very good chance we didn’t make it to 5th, so we would’ve faced one of Bucks, Celtics or Sixers. So again with a very good chance to not be able to get out of the 1st round. You can dislike the trade because you prefer the prospect we would’ve taken with the pick, but to say we would advance to the 2nd round with the way we were playing before Hart and after, i think that’s not very likely. He helped to make the difference for us to get to the 5th seed.
I’m in this camp also.
I’ve been saying playoff experience is a plus for years.
I think part of the development of a player and championship contender is getting playoff experience and learning how the game changes, how to handle the extreme pressure, how to stick together if things aren’t
going well etc… The more experience you get, the more likely you are to develop as a player and team and handle it better .
ok sorry i don’t mean to misrepresent… but even saying that it’s a factor… i mean we’ve been hearing this for years now…. getting leon rose will help in attracting stars… getting to the playoffs will help us attract a star… winning a round will help us get stars…
stars have absolutely been on the market the last 3 years…. including right now… where is the evidence that it even remotely exists?
I’m not worried about the Hart trade, although i would’ve preferred to have a pick because i didn’t even pay attention to the draft, without the Knicks involved. I just noticed there was one guy a lot taller than everybody else and that’s it. LOL. What i’m worried about Hart is what his next contract will be, and if he can keep a level of play not far from the level he showed once he got here. Technically he was on a contract year, if he intended to opt out, and we have a lot of examples of players having big years on contract years and then going back to a level quite far from that.
Why are we debating the details of Josh Hart’s contribution last year?
We know he helped. The degree doesn’t even matter much.
The key question is whether he’s good enough to be an important part of a championship contender longer term.
I think the answer is yes. He’s a very good role player, especially off the bench. He plays with high energy, rebounds extremely well for his position, makes all the hustle plays like diving for loose balls that get extra possessions, can make plays, and despite limited ability on offense, makes good enough decisions in his shot selection to remain very efficient on low volume. He’s almost the perfect role player. Every team wants a couple of guys like that.
Maybe we can debate the salary when we know what it is, but if we make it to contender status, Josh Hart is good enough to be part of it.
He’s not a good prospect but I wouldn’t call him a non-prospect.
He shows up on Hollinger, Vecenie, and ESPNs lists of top prospects albeit on the lower end. Race Thompson, for instance, I can’t even find.
I’m not sure how much of a difference there is between 60 & 100 on a big board but presumably it isn’t much or at least 60 isn’t much more likely to make a difference than 100. Hollinger even had him top 60. Size and athleticism goes a long way.
It wouldn’t be the craziest thing for a team to draft him.
I assume he’d be on a SL squad and/or training camp regardless we just wouldn’t know or care about him if his name was Jacob Smith.
yea absolutely he was awesome! i’m not contesting that… but isn’t it ironic that we credit the deal that hart did all that by shooting 50% from 3 and we’re sitting here saying that all these prospects and edge cases don’t matter too? very weird!
and it’s a question of factoring all that and we’re grappling with whether it is worth it or not… on average these things.. if you look at it from a historical perspective… it usually isn’t…
there was one deal that i remembered and forgot to mention and that was for norman powell to the blazers.. similar situation as hart actually only the blazers traded out trent instead of a pick… powell was ok for them.. didn’t help them advance and had to overpay to resign him… and then had to dump him a couple seasons later…
these things dont tend to work out.. and yes the short term this worked out better than anyone could have possibly imagined…. and if you only look at that it’s a fantabulous deal! it’s like you’re partying at the club popping bottles and everyone’s having a great time.. but eventually you gotta pay the bill… draft day was one part and whatever hart signs for is another and we can see it play out…
I may have overstated things a bit, EB, but you get my point. This is a guy unlikely to ever get promoted from Westchester, whose most notable attribute is being the brother of a disgruntled player whom the organization has reportedly agreed to trade this offseason(*). So unless that arrangement has been changed, I’m not sure why they’d bother with Jacob over any number of other guys in the same prospect range.
(*) It’s come up a few times of late on the Macri podcast (both from him and from some of the beat writers, I believe) that Wes is a huge Obi backer, and continues to think of him as the guy who was worth a top 8 pick — and thus has pushed back on any attempts to trade him for less than that value. A mindset that seems… less than ideal from one of the more influential voices in the front office.
Look, we get that you’re a draft guru and are very invested in the draft, but sometimes you have to trade picks… I don’t know what else to say.
I guess we could’ve waited to sign Hart as a UFA this year, but they wanted to win more games in 2022-23. It’s hard for me to sit here and say “why would you try to win right now?” the way you do.
Also, Hartenstein was one of the best defensive centers in the league last year according to RAPTOR. The way Rose traded out of that pick was far from ideal, everyone pretty much agrees with that. But kicking the can down the road in order to wait for the right star IS THE PLAN. So he’s doing whatever it takes to execute his plan.
Like I said, it’s up for debate as to whether that’s the best plan, but in these instances, would you rather Leon traded, say, Quickley for multiple future picks while selecting Jalen Williams in that draft? Is that what you mean by “not trading first round picks”? Because I don’t think that ultimately moves the needle one way or the other.
But trading a pick instead of Quickley does create continuity and loyalty instead of dumping players who have worked extremely hard for you. It’s also helpful to reward those players with second contracts.
There is a human element to any business, and if you’d ever worked for a business that ignores the human element, I’m pretty sure you wanted to get out of there ASAP.
We also couldn’t have afforded to sign Hart this summer, because he was going to get more than the midlevel even before he came here and balled out of his mind. Creating the necessary cap space would have cost us either one of our prospects, or a draft pick anyway.
I think obi at this price, for at least half a season (maybe he gets traded later next season) is a very good deal for the team…
obi is more than fine as a backup 4…
actually, obi seems to be a very good backup 4…
again… this has nothing to do with that! it’s not sometimes! it’s literally 3 straight years and 3 straight picks…. there’s no reason to infer more because i have a personality flaw in order to disagree with you!
before it was just a signal… now it’s a clear trend… but even still you take these all in isolation… it’s just not good… we’re wasting capital that we used to have excess of… and it’s already cost us top flight talent… and might actually come down to more…
and you can leave it at that! you disagree it’s a freaking awesome trade… you can hang those second rd banners… but you’re hung up on the fact that i like the draft.. yes i do! me not liking these trades has nothing to do with that!
there’s completely rational and absolutely valid reasons to disagree without being invested in the draft or worshipping hinkie or i’m a democrat or catholic or whatever label you attribute to people who disagree with you… take it at face value… just try to really understand it without prejudgement.. it’s hard but we can all come out better if you try….
Agreed, Geo. And isn’t it nice that if, God forbid, either of our “stars” were to go down with terrible injuries, we have excellent, young players in Obi and Quickley who can move up and allow us to still compete at a high level?
nice to see the convo got on some tv stuff…man but I love me some tv 🙂
been watching some interesting stuff on archeology and early “culture”…
one is that Unearthed show on Max…they also had this very interesting new “special” called Ancient Armageddon which did an neat examination of why the 3 major cultures/societies at the end of the Bronze age collapsed…
it was fascinating…it also really illustrates how even the strongest cultures/societies – civilizations are all on the clock once the environment starts to radically change…
droughts, earthquakes, severe solar activity, volcanoes, meteor impacts…significant events which will repeat themselves…
I like the Josh Hart trade even with Cam Whitmore falling near our draft range.
What I don’t like is the front office’s refusal to roster more young players through the draft. It makes no sense to have our youngest actual prospect be Quentin Grimes. Clearly we bet on the Mavs pick conveying. But it seems like we had no plan B when that failed to occur, so Leon and company made no further moves, probably because they projected none of the four guys they like per draft to be available in the late first.
I’m overall somewhat positive on the Rose administration, but their draft asset management has really not been good, Hart trade excepted (in my view.)
I still think we’re a pretty good bet to make the second round this coming year with some minor adjustments. Is that good? Depends on what you’re expecting and what you think association success looks like. I definitely don’t want to be stuck in the mezzanine, but I could also use some playoff basketball to look forward to for once. In any case, time is running out on the hybrid strategy, since we really need to be locked into a contender by 2024 with the second apron incoming. We have one more year of keeping our powder dry, at most. So I’m just trying to enjoy the ride until the inevitable trade arrives.
for the record – I realize it’s an odd front office strategy to not partake in the draft…
hard to argue that though when the proof is in the pudding, we made it to the second round…
no reason to think that in the upcoming season we won’t have a good chance to duplicate that performance…
sure, no ring to it, but, only one team gets a ring each season…
Quentin Grimes was a first-round pick in 2021, #25.
And guess what? We all like the draft. Everyone here wants a shiny new toy to talk about and watch grow. And no offense to Jacob Toppin, but we’d all prefer it to be a highly-ranked prospect.
Ok great. then show us statistics to prove your point instead of just yelling.
I think that’s fair, but I guess my point is that I’m not sure how much worse he is than anyone else there. Like what are the chances the 65th best guy make the club instead of Jacob?
It’s not like many UDFA or late 2nd rd picks do anything significant even when they do make the roater. Sims is one of the better 58th picks in league history and is still pretty bad because he can’t figure out how to defend the PnR.
On the one hand nepotism isn’t what you want for the process, on the other if that player is the same tier (or thereabouts) as the guy you’re getting anyways why not do it? I’m not saying he is in that same tier, I don’t really know enough about him, but if guys are even bothering to list him then they probably see something even if it’s bolstered by its own brand of nepotism/name recognition.
He strikes me as a player who could be useful if he fixes his shot, which is a lot of people but sometimes it happens.
oh, and been getting my cultural geography fix going through Anthony Bourdain’s No Reservation and Parts Unknown…
it’s a little sad at times to listen to his self loathing, particularly knowing how his personal story ended…but fascinating stories of different lands, people and of course food 🙂
I agree, for now Hart has been a success but those two (player we missed in the draft and his contract) can still determine that the trade wasn’t a success. And i’d add a third – his performance, because it’s very likely he can’t keep the level of play he showed at the end of last season.
And i agree with this too. I think the majority of KBers doesn’t approve how Leon handles the draft, but he’s getting results too (Quick, Grimes) so it’s not all bad.
Agreed, with the caveat that I don’t think assigning any grade other than TBD is appropriate for the 2021 draft performance. Even if you hold Jalen Williams against Rose (arguably unfair from anyone who didn’t personally have Williams ranked as the BPA at #11), that’s not an insurmountable bar to clear with the picks we got.
I think the median outcome with those picks is something like 15/25/35/35. There’s plenty of potential value there, either by trade or by drafting players, if Leon plays his cards right.
But the Jacob Toppin and Ryan Arcidiacono silliness is aggravating, and getting absolutely nothing out of the 19th pick in 2021 is a major failure. We’ve chosen a strategy with very little margin for error, so that kind of thing just ain’t gonna cut it.
I think it’s also at least a bit less likely he would have signed here as a FA than after having the experience in NY playing at MSG, playing with his friend, getting the love of the fans etc… He didn’t come here because he loves NY. He loves NY now.
Jacob Toppin is pure politics. Nothing else to discuss there.
I’m not wildly opposed to nepotism for a G-League-level acquisition, EB. I’m just confused. Everything we’ve heard suggests Obi will be moved this summer. The only reason you sign Jacob Toppin, as opposed to a dozen other guys with similar flaws, is if you are planning on Obi being here this season. So either something has changed since that earlier reporting, or the Knicks scouts see such an uncut gem in Jacob that they think it’s worth it to have him around even if his brother is gone. Heck, Phil believed that once upon a time about Thanasis.
I think one of the more fascinating narratives is how good Josh Hart is going to be this year, when he won’t shoot 51.9% from three.
I think his (dare I say it) hustlebunny effort combined with rebounds and drives to the rim not to mention hard-nosed D will still be great for the team even if he shoot 34-36% from three.
But last year was an anomaly, so I’m interested to see how impactful he is as someone who’s no longer channeling Steph Curry.
geo man,
Yeah, I’m still sad about Bourdain as I was a big fan of his various shows and had been watching him for many years, but also a bit “angry.”
I don’t pretend to understand depression, suicide, romantic obsession, etc., but if indeed the final impetus to end his life was b/c of a turbulent romantic relationship, I just wonder why he wouldn’t want to stick around for the sake of his daughter.
We know what the draft strategy is.
They will draft a player if they really like him but they also consider draft picks as assets to be used in trades. They like that strategy because if they bring in a player via trade using some picks (especially a star player) they won’t have to send out as many quality young players and gut the team to get him (like we did in the Melo case). When they don’t see a player they like long term in the available slot, they roll out the pick for the future where they will again have the option of drafting to trading.
So far, that star player has not been available and they apparently have not been crazy about what has been available to them in the draft most years. But we know they are not dismissing the draft because they did pick Grimes and tried to consolidate a few picks and move up to get Jaden Ivy.
As to this year, I’m pretty sure they expected to have the Dallas pick, which is why they were willing to trade our own. But that’s not a major blow. They still have the pick available for trade or draft next year along with our own.
Raven,
Plus one on all of this.
Yeah, definitely weird. I wouldn’t put it past them to think Jacob is fixable though. Maybe they see him as similar to Sims who has the athletic tools but needs a bit of refinement (maybe a lot of refinement).
They may also view it as a way to smooth things over even after Obi leaves to help boost the Knicks rep with players, which they seem to value. Or more cynically it boosts Leon’s rep or helps his own nepotistic son keep Obi as a client. And all that definitely moves us into the dumb sector and hopefully isn’t what’s happening.
we had the #19 and 21 picks in that draft…
i have no idea what this means… but i am engaging you and everyone else to the best that i can… i am backing every claim that i am making… if thats not sufficient for you then show me where and i’ll try to address it…. but at this point there’s more than enough out there for anyone to understand the position… so i hope you can get there eventually…
and what would you say to that trade when you normally can’t even get the #11 pick if you had those pick numbers in the same draft? we had the 19 and 21 and were trying to trade up for duarte and couldn’t… moving that return 3-5 years out does not make it better…
I like to repeat myself. 😉
IMO, there is no reason to move Obi unless you have a better option at backup PF. I think the rumors of his imminent trade may be a bit overblown and dependent on what other deals they can make. Even if they don’t think he’s worth the extension price, you still need a better value to replace him. You want to upgrade the position, not move backwards just to save a few bucks. It’s tricky if he’s not happy. Maybe Thibs can do a better job of holding Randle’s minutes down in some of those extreme games in order to get more minutes for Obi. Also, Randle has been a warrior in terms of injuries. For all we know Randle will miss 20 games this season and Obi will be playing a ton.
Oh, right. I forgot the part where Leon’s son is Jacob’s agent. I withdraw all my other questions on this subject.
What a strange, strange front office we have. It works more often than not, but still.
They’ve traded a first round pick three straight years. The Josh Hart trade *might* look different if it wasn’t part of a pattern of incineration and general stupidity.
Call me crazy, but I think appending the term “strategy” to the Knicks’ never-ending quest to “trade for a star” gives it too much credit. A bunch of teams would like to trade for stars and several teams actually do it. In this latest iteration, they weren’t contenders for Durant, weren’t contenders for Irving, weren’t contenders for Beal, aren’t mentioned as contenders for Lillard, and were anticipatorily laughed out of the room by LaVine. (I’m probably missing some.) (*) Calling that a “strategy” is just an easy way out for Rose. I’m not buying. It’s a “hope and a prayer,” not a “strategy.”
(*) And we all know why they aren’t really contenders for these guys. It’s cold in the winter in NYC; the taxes are sky-high here; the fans and media are demanding; and — by far most of all — the owner is an eccentric grouchy Trumpy who treats a bunch of stars and celebrities like shit just because he can and has a perpetual three-quarter chubb for a single player agency only because said player agency reps his absurd and ridiculous “band.” There are and will be outlier examples like Anthony (NYC ties) and Brunson (CAA ties), and kinda Mitchell (NYC ties), but they’re just that — outliers. Without some pre-existing tie, the “Mecca” remains a place players love to visit and shine in, but not do full-time work in. There’s just way too much evidence at this late date to conclude otherwise. The other franchises don’t operate this way. They don’t have a “strategy” or a “plan” to trade for a star — they simply sometimes trade for stars.
On another subject, I’ve seen a few different places suggest Torrey Craig as a potential mid-level target. He’s a big wing in a way DiVincenzo, Brown, and a bunch of the other FAs are. Phoenix will probably sign him to something bigger than the mid-level due to their cramped cap/tax/apron situation, but if they don’t… thoughts?
… I shouldn’t have put the “Mecca” in sarcastic quotes — Madison Square Garden is actually a fantastic, elite, often electric sporting arena. It probably would attract more full-timers if not for the owner.
In terms of the move for this offseason — Zion remains the move.
New and unrelated topic:
is E’s role on this board that of low-ceiling hustlebunny? He dives for every loose thread he can and usually secures them. Yet most of us agree he’s unlikely to significantly move the needle towards greatness for us.
Alternatively is it as E would argue, and his high volume/usage (despite quite poor efficiency — it’s taken him how many posts to make a single point?) speak to untapped greatness/high ceiling.
My ideal “tinkering around the edges” offseason:
Niang or Watanabe with the BAE
Opt-in + extend Hart
Trade Obi + Fournier for another ball-handler/shooter and a 2nd round pick (say, Burks, whose team option you can decline and then sign with the part of or all of the MLE)
Then the lineup looks like:
1. Brunson/Quickley (I’d prefer that IQ start, but Thibs doesn’t seem to want to do this, so I put him here)
2. Burks/Grimes
3. RJ/Hart
4. Randle/Niang or Yuta
5. Mitch/I-Hart
I think that represents a real improvement to the team (especially in the ball-movement department–though there’s still some shooting question marks) without going over the cap, and leaves our powder dry for a star trade.
I could also see Craig here–he’s really come around as a catch-and-shoot guy, and he’s a great defender. But he’s going to take time from some other rotation player if we didn’t make any other significant moves, so I’m not sure he represents much additional value.
33 In december, a little too old for my taste.
Of the players in Katz’s article my preference goes to Niang, Watanabe and Josh Richardson.
My wet dream is EuroLeague MVP Sasha Vezenkov, 6’9″ 225 lbs stretch-4, soon to be 28 years old. In his prime, fit the age of our group.
The Kings have his rights and are trying to sign him (rumors are they’re offering a multiyear around 8M/per).
I’d like to pry him away from the Kings for one of our “strange”-first…
But I don’t know if he’s a CAA guy… 😉
If we do move Obi, I’d consider Craig as a solid pickup. As is we can fill all our backup minutes with 4 guys and still complain about guys needing more minutes. I like Donte more, but kinda think the same about him.
Craig is a career 34.7% shooter on moderate volume and he’ll be 33. I’d rather someone younger who can shoot better but we desperately need a longer defender too.
People clown on Arcidiacono but statistically his stint in Chicago wasn’t noticeably worse than what Gabe Vincent has done.
E is definitely a hustlebunny poster. He’s so limited in what he is capable of posting about. If we’re discussing something beyond Cam Reddish or Thibs/Leon bashing, you can’t really trust him to sink a wide open comment with the clock running out. But he is super useful during the regular season for filling up threads
My strategy for success:
1. Don’t do anything to make the Knicks better because that reduces future draft pick value
2.
3. Easily win NBA title
Will be interesting to see if being on a new team can get some more out of John Collins. He was sneaky pretty bad last year, his 3 point shot just completely vanished.
If Leon can’t convert the paper clips from his various trades into a star, then you have to say his strategy failed. His approach to the draft and valuation of draft picks IS highly dubious, I’ve been saying this pretty much from the jump with this guy. The back end of the roster was all no-hope filler and veterans on bad contracts. A big part of what became known as Heat Culture was having some guys at the back end of their roster who had at least some path to NBA usefulness.
But on the flip side, Leon achieved a meaningful goal in winning a playoff series, and he still has some assets to work with. I don’t really see an easy path to acquiring that star the Knicks need, and I feel like the asset stack is a little short, but maybe something pans out.
If he’s not able to get that star, the paper clip trades are going to start taking on a more pungent odor.
So I say you “ like the draft” and you freak out on me, but you repeatedly call me slow because I don’t get your convoluted point… nice.
Maybe someone else can explain djphan’s position for me? What am I missing besides “Leon bad man because trade picks”?
I think in most drafts that would be considered a very aggressive trade up package, actually. In this past draft, going from 8 to 7 cost two seconds and going from 12 to 10 cost taking on Richaun Holmes. The closest analog I can think of is the Pelicans trading 8, 17, 35, and two seconds for 4 in 2019.
15/25/35/35 for 11 would strike me as a pretty sizable overpay unless I was absolutely in love with someone at 11.
I dunno walker — all that usage! If he could just clean up his post selection his efficiency might skyrocket and then we’d really have something. Hate to see all that potential realized at some other blog
After three years of John Collins trade rumors of varying degrees of sexiness, all the Hawks ultimately get for him is salary relief. Just incredible work by the various administrations over there.
If we had one of the 5 best players in the NBA and we were trying to stay out of the playoffs to get the fucking 10th pick in the draft because we had badly bungled the easy part of team building I would probably be pretty annoyed with the front office.
that guys available for the MLE article was depressing
Yeah, I get he’s not a great player and he’s probably overpaid, but I think he can be useful and the price Utah paid is incredibly low…
Basically last year the prices skyrocketed and this year (so far) players are sold for (relative) peanuts.
What a difference a CBA can make…
a) hope that a player who might be good maybe falls to a pick you might have.
or
b) entertain your fans.
Even Sam Hinkie wouldn’t spend as much time thinking about this as some of you guys have.
From the latest Stein Line newsletter:
“The Raptors continue to consistently resist trade inquiries for in-demand swingman O.G. Anunoby, but there is a bit of Anunoby news for those interested in player representation and its accompanying machinations.
Word is Anunoby is leaving Klutch Sports and soon to choose new representation.”
Masai would still have to want to trade him, but OG leaving Klutch at least opens up the possibility of him wanting to come here.
Meanwhile, the Suns are bringing Chasson Randle in for a workout. Remember Chasson Randle?
Whatever flaws this team/FO may have, it cannot be overstated the difference between debating whether the Josh Hart trade was justified and trying to figure out if Chasson Randle was secretly a future NBA starting point guard.
the last trade up in the vicinity of where we were was the mikal bridges trade which was for #16 (zhaire smith) and the unprotected 2021 miami pick … before they got jimmy butler…
that’s a much bigger return than 15 … 25 and any number of second rd picks…
i haven’t called you slow … but i can only explain it so many different ways … do you want me to wipe your ass for you too? ok that’s not so nice sorry…
it seems like plenty of others still need it spelled out for them too… so you’re not alone but you can do better… i know you can .. i believe in you… but you just have to believe that i’m not some egomaniac to disagree with you….
it’s hard i know… but baby steps…. if you have actual genuine questions you need me to clarify… i’m here … while i sit atop my ivory tower….
This seems to be a point in favor of Leon, actually. The return on that trade ended up being 16 and 18 for 10. That makes 15/25/35/35 look like a fine return for 11, especially when you consider Mikal was probably more highly regarded than anyone available at 11 in 2021.
I get that you’re saying that at the time the Miami picked looked like it’d be better than 18, but I don’t agree. The Heat’s future admittedly looked bleak at the time, but they already had Bam and it wasn’t exactly a state secret that Pat Riley is pretty averse to bottoming out.
For some reason, it feels like time to link to this again: https://youtu.be/LG4hOjJ9tEs
I’m just glad Phil is out of basketball and Frank is on his way out of the NBA. That leaves E to stubbornly fight all these battles since I seem to be on the same page with most people these days. 😉
Since this doesn’t seem to be going away… We were playing 50-win ball with the post-Rose/Cam/Fournier lineup. We were a very good team.
I am skeptical of ilthe trade value, I was even against it initially before I realized that Hart was a much better rebounder and ball handler than I thought. Still his lack of shooting may prove a bigger problem as we look towards the playoffs more than the regular season. There’s a reason the Grimes prototype valued over and above an equally productive player of a different mold.
At the end of the day I’m happier than a lot of people here to have a consistently good team after decades of crappy teams or our 1 good team with zero young players or draft picks. I’ll accept consequences of the trade based on that alone.
It’ll be kinda hilarious at this point if Hart ends up signing for the MLE and/or Cam Whitmore ends up being garbage.
To be honest, the timing of it makes it seem like they were either blocking a deal he was fine with and Toronto would be willing to make or doing something else he wasn’t happy about right now. Why else would you make that change right now?
Maybe it’s a bit of wishful thinking, but he may want to go somewhere he knows he’ll get paid in the future and also not have to deal with the possible rebuild in Toronto.
“I strongly co-sign the idea that winning a playoff series has utility, beyond the accumulation of fond memories”
I went to Game 3 and even though it was a blowout and the worst game the Knicks played in the playoffs it was awesome just being there.
During the Knicks Heat playoff games from 1997-2000 I was in my late teens and had no means of attending the games and in 2012 knew the Heat were gonna win easily so didn’t even contemplate trying to get tickets.
This year I went with my brother who was only 4yo when we moved down here so he has no recollection of living in NY and grew up idolizing MJ and the Bulls during their 2nd 3peat. But I have taught him to hate the Heat so even though he’s not really a Knicks fan he jumped at the chance to attend the game and root for the Knicks.
Sports is first and foremost entertainment so yes I was thrilled to be able to attend an important playoff game and root for my favorite team even though in the end it wasn’t the desired outcome.
Is D’Andre Hunter next to move?
Josh Hart is a career 35% 3pt shooter and has a career eFG% of 55%, he’s not exactly RJ out there.
Of course the other question you need to ask is how many players are currently worth a 1st round pick after 19 in 2021?
Under your standard probably none.
Last draft is more favorable even with the bigger package. Jalen Williams, Kessler, and AJ Griffin probably makes it now that his athleticism is restored.
I’ll also point out we were able to trade back in at 13, which would seemingly satisfy your desire to at least make some pick for an upside swing, and at that point there’s only 2 players. Of course more may break out, but that’s not necessarily helpful given that we’re trying to win now.
To be honest, the timing of it makes it seem like they were either blocking a deal he was fine with and Toronto would be willing to make or doing something else he wasn’t happy about right now. Why else would you make that change right now?
OG’s long time agent was omar wilkes and OG originally followed him from Octagon when klutch poached him in 2020. A few months ago Wilkes left Klutch and switched careers to work for Michael Rubin at fanatics. that’s probably all this is.
uh.. what? i know memories are rather short these days… but that unprotected miami pick the suns had was quite possibly the most valuable traded asset up until that point and was coveted by basically everyone in the nba…
you also mention bam like he was some important piece.. he was a rookie .. had a negative bpm… and was no where near the bam we know now as of today.. they’re ‘big’ pieces were dragic and whiteside… and the corpse of dwyane wade yea that team…
the equivalent of that pick would be having chicago’s 2025 unprotected first just to give you an idea…. and yea i bet chicago would give up that pick for those milwaukee… detroit and washington picks in a heartbeat….
where it ended up doesn’t make it all that much better since even 18 is much better than 25 and a couple 2nds…
that’s not to mention that we’re discussing this in the context of having those picks in the same year…. we don’t… these picks are super far off if they even convert….
there is NO UNIVERSE where that deal is similar… none….
The John Collins trade is basically a screaming reminder that, “This new CBA is a big deal!”
Hart is good at hitting the shots he takes but more and more I think there’s value in volume and I’m not sure Hart can sustain the volume. He did post-trade last year with Portland for 13 games but that’s it. At the end of the day an opponents willingness to leave you open is the best measure of shooting prowess and clearly Miami was happy to do so despite his % being good.
No doubt EB but it also cost Miami down the stretch in Game 5 when Hart hit a couple of huge 3pters in the final 3 minutes.
Hart is not an All-Star by any stretch but he’s a very good player that all great teams need. People are going to complain when he gets his 18-20m contract extension but there are metrics that place his value in the 25m range so he’ll be getting paid what he fairly deserves. Now obviously it’s up to him to maintain that standard of play and hopefully improve a bit his volume 3pt shooting without sacrificing his efficiency.
I’m a believer in Josh Hart’s defense, and I think we overlook that side of the ball sometimes. Hart is a defensive-oriented player, and one of the few truly disruptive defenders on the team, and he gives you power forward numbers when it comes to defensive rebounding. Led all of the rotation players in STL%.
We needed a wing who could defend, and he fits the bill. Likely he’s going to revert back to the roughly 1 BPM player that he has always been, which is fine.
In addition to Chasson Randle the Suns will workout former lottery failures (for different reasons) Stanley Johnson and Jabari Parker.
Parker’s career was derailed by injuries, Johnson probably simply isn’t good enough.
Was Jabari hurt last year? He didn’t play for anyone
Edit: And I guess Chasson hasn’t played NBA in 2yrs
Really scraping the barrel here. Probably not a bad idea to kick the tires a bit since they’ll have a bunch of minimum players, but wow.
doesn’t marketen play at the four for utah…
Yeah, Collins and Markkanen overlap, so i guess Markkanen will be traded. Let it not be to the Knicks for the sake of Clyde! LOL
Come on, OG, choose CAA already! 😀
Here’s a round up of contemporaneous coverage of the trade. Needless to say it does not accord with your accounting of it. Most people seemed to think the Suns actually did well. There was definitely not a ton of badgering them for trading such an incredible asset.
FWIW, at the time I was more aligned with you given that the Heat’s situation didn’t look so hot. But it was hardly out of the realm of possibilities that the pick wouldn’t be great (I mean obviously not, because it wasn’t).
There were upside scenarios for sure, but there are upside scenarios for us too! I mean, we could get 3 top 10 picks for all we know. The trades seem pretty similar to me.
Damn it
If we could only get RJ to be a 1 BPM player.
howdy clash fan, I hope yourself and the family are all well…
so many artists that I truly love and bring me a lot of solace – and joy, sadly were unable to make it through themselves…
I really love me some me – so, it’s very difficult to understand the self loathing stuff…
I critical and a bit of a dick at times, but – nobody’s perfect, right…
I’ve felt weary, like really weary…thankfully not to the point where it was unbearable…I take it very very serious when others make mention of it though…
I love though how people around anthony would react and respond to him, like they were just so happy to get the chance to spend their time with him…
that and I really like the times when he dines away from restaurants and in folks’ homes with their families…
a thing of beauty…
Apparently they overlap, at least as “primary position”,
but Markkanen did play a lot of “3” in Cleveland 2 years ago,
while Collins has experience as a smallball “5” especially in his first 3 years in Atlanta.
Will (verb 😉 ) Hardy be flexible enough to try different configurations during the game?
LOL
Sorta. You know how in the NFL, they just write “(knee)” for a knew injury, etc.?
For Jabari Parker, it would have been “Jabari Parker – Out (sucks)”
Yeah, Markkanen can play the 3
Kessler can cover on defense for Collins
Contract is big and long but doesn’t look crazy next to some max deals.
Won’t overlap with Kessler/Agbaji deals, 1yr overlap with Lauri’s next one. If Collins opts out, there’s zero overlap
The stories about the deal I read this afternoon suggested that Mark-A-Ten will be starting at small forward. The West is big, man.
Parker – Out (Fan eyes)
Some of Chasson Randle teams starting 2019-20 include:
– Tianjin Ronggang
– NZ Breakers
– Grand Rapids Gold
– OKC Blue
– a team from the BSN, drink on me if anyone guesses where that is
He was involved in a g-league trade between the above Gold & Blue, which 🤷
That would be both amusing and enhance our chances.
The Clippers supposedly have some RJ fans in their organization. Too bad Paul George has arthritic knees, averages around 50 games per season, and wants a 4 year extension. I understand that peak George is the exact player we need, but If they bring George here and give him a 4 year extension, I’m at risk of becoming a drug addict because I’m definitely going to need a lot of pain killers.
lauri’s 7′ and weighs like 240 lbs, no way can he play the 3 – right?
He did it in Cleveland, Geo.
Come on EB, this is easy, it’s Puertoooo Rrrrrrico!
Lol, well so much for that. Next time I’m in town I’ll buy you a drink
Leones de Ponce where he played 4 games averaged 24min 2.5ast and nearly scored 10pts a game on a .526 TS%. He was much better in the g-league though
I was reading about the FIBA World Cup and I knew Brunson was on the team but didn’t realize the tournament doesn’t start until last week of August and ends mid September.
Now I’m gonna be praying Brunson doesn’t get hurt. I like watching Knick players in international games but I think I’d prefer if he skipped this tournament.
Me too, Big Blue
wait… you’re linking phoenix’s overall draft grades which includes their entire draft and citing a lack of comment on the miami pick as some sort of evidence that it wasn’t anything special? yea of course in the context of having the #1 pick and picking deandre ayton and picking mikal bridges you might not talk about the miami pick too much… did you read through these? was all this talk about deandre ayton not clueing you into how relevant to the discussion this was? that’s totally not in scope of what we’re talking about tho… how could you even think this was relevant? the closest thing to an insider cited is jeremy woo… did comment on the miami pick…
here’s what you said about the pick…
https://knickerblogger.net/2018/06/21/2018-draft-comment-thread/
and there are other commentary about the miami pick… and it’s universal agreement what that pick meant and these are mostly casual observers… the miami piack was a valued asset… universally valued very highly because they were an old and capped out team depending on aging pg and a flakey center… and in no way shape or form was that pick in the vicinity of HEAVILY PROTECTED picks from BAD teams…
no way jose…. maybe you might think catching an inside straight we’d get multiple top 10 picks out of this and leaning on that… more power to you it’s a free country…. but you cannot say that these were equal in any way shape or form… categorically false… i would even go so far as revisionist…. and that thread is definitive proof…..
Shit just realized Canada qualified so I assume RJ will be playing too.
Hey, geo man! Yeah, all’s well here and I hope with you, too. AB left behind a great legacy…all his shows were great to watch. I just wish he’d stuck around longer rather than check out to stop “busting” AA’s “balls.”
All of us Knicks fans have to stick around, too. So many questions yet to be answered. What will Josh Hart resign for? How many more 1st round picks will Leon Rose incinerate? The list goes on… 🙂
they could probably give lauri or collins a few minutes at center if they’re playing a small ball lineup. I think markiten played some center last year. So that’s plenty of minutes to go around for the 3 of them if Collins doesn’t suck.
“Shit just realized Canada qualified so I assume RJ will be playing too.”
Looking at that roster, I don’t know how much playing time RJ will actually get.
Apparently Markaten can play the 3, but Obi is too slow and stiff. It looks like Denver has changed the trend away from small ball.
the wolves versus jazz are gonna look like the land of giants out there…
https://twitter.com/krispursiainen/status/1673543971862085634?s=46&t=0wqff4cNt-sCGcDs-uMExw
Certainly a point in favor of Leon keeping his picks.
I know what you mean, but to call small ball to a lineup with a 7 footer at center is funny.
Not Markaten. Not Markiten. Not Markanen. Not Markanin. Not even Markkanin.
Try “Markkanen,” fellas. It’s really not that difficult. 🙂