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Knicks Morning News (2023.06.12)

  • Former Knicks Star, Whose 4-Words Have Always Been Adhered by Trae Young, Gives the New York’s Villain “Utmost Respect” – EssentiallySports
    [news.google.com] — Monday, June 12, 2023 6:50:00 AM

    Former Knicks Star, Whose 4-Words Have Always Been Adhered by Trae Young, Gives the New York’s Villain “Utmost Respect”  EssentiallySports

  • NBA Rumors: Knicks Land Blazers’ Jerami Grant In This Trade – NBA Analysis Network
    [news.google.com] — Monday, June 12, 2023 12:01:37 AM

    NBA Rumors: Knicks Land Blazers’ Jerami Grant In This Trade  NBA Analysis Network

  • Portland Trail Blazers Among Teams Best Positioned to Trade for a Star – Blazer’s Edge
    [news.google.com] — Sunday, June 11, 2023 9:17:24 PM

    Portland Trail Blazers Among Teams Best Positioned to Trade for a Star  Blazer’s Edge

  • New NBA Trade Intel Links Donovan Mitchell To Knicks – Yardbarker
    [news.google.com] — Sunday, June 11, 2023 7:07:03 PM

    New NBA Trade Intel Links Donovan Mitchell To Knicks  Yardbarker

  • One major takeaway for the New York Knicks from 2023 NBA Finals – Daily Knicks
    [news.google.com] — Sunday, June 11, 2023 5:00:39 PM

    One major takeaway for the New York Knicks from 2023 NBA Finals  Daily Knicks

  • Should the Knicks trade Obi Toppin this summer? – Posting and Toasting
    [news.google.com] — Sunday, June 11, 2023 5:00:00 PM

    Should the Knicks trade Obi Toppin this summer?  Posting and Toasting

  • Knicks linked to former Bulls shooting guard in free agency – Yardbarker
    [news.google.com] — Sunday, June 11, 2023 4:37:23 PM

    Knicks linked to former Bulls shooting guard in free agency  Yardbarker

  • Today’s Iconic Moment in NY Sports History: The New York Knicks became the first eight-seed to ever reach the NBA Finals – New York Post
    [news.google.com] — Sunday, June 11, 2023 3:23:00 PM

    Today’s Iconic Moment in NY Sports History: The New York Knicks became the first eight-seed to ever reach the NBA Finals  New York Post

  • The Stew, The Crown, The Marine: Liberty Clip Wings in Brooklyn – Sports Illustrated
    [news.google.com] — Sunday, June 11, 2023 3:04:40 PM

    The Stew, The Crown, The Marine: Liberty Clip Wings in Brooklyn  Sports Illustrated

  • Knicks: New Julius Randle Intel Casts Doubt Over Obi Toppin’s Future – Heavy.com
    [news.google.com] — Sunday, June 11, 2023 2:53:43 PM

    Knicks: New Julius Randle Intel Casts Doubt Over Obi Toppin’s Future  Heavy.com

  • Is Donovan Mitchell’s Time With The Cavaliers Already Coming To An End? – Sports Illustrated
    [news.google.com] — Sunday, June 11, 2023 1:47:49 PM

    Is Donovan Mitchell’s Time With The Cavaliers Already Coming To An End?  Sports Illustrated

  • Former Knicks head coach David Fizdale takes Suns assistant job; Jeff Van Gundy might coach in Dallas??? – Posting and Toasting
    [news.google.com] — Sunday, June 11, 2023 1:40:17 PM

    Former Knicks head coach David Fizdale takes Suns assistant job; Jeff Van Gundy might coach in Dallas???  Posting and ToastingChris Paul rumors: Warriors, Lakers, Knicks among teams to watch if 12-time All-Star hits the open market  CBS SportsChris Paul Rumors: Knicks, Warriors, Lakers Linked If Suns PG Becomes Free Agent  Bleacher Report

  • Knicks could make a run at 12-time All-Star Chris Paul: Report – AMNY
    [news.google.com] — Sunday, June 11, 2023 10:25:14 AM

    Knicks could make a run at 12-time All-Star Chris Paul: Report  AMNY

  • Nets’ Fan-Favorite Named as ‘Sleeper’ Target for Knicks – Heavy.com
    [news.google.com] — Sunday, June 11, 2023 10:14:58 AM

    Nets’ Fan-Favorite Named as ‘Sleeper’ Target for Knicks  Heavy.com

  • Bleacher Report is actually spot-on with Knicks’ biggest offseason fear – Daily Knicks
    [news.google.com] — Sunday, June 11, 2023 10:00:22 AM

    Bleacher Report is actually spot-on with Knicks’ biggest offseason fear  Daily Knicks

  • Bulls’ Patrick Beverley named ‘sleeper’ free agency target for Knicks – Yahoo Sports
    [news.google.com] — Sunday, June 11, 2023 9:00:18 AM

    Bulls’ Patrick Beverley named ‘sleeper’ free agency target for Knicks  Yahoo Sports

  • Bulls’ Patrick Beverley named ‘sleeper’ free agency target for Knicks – USA Today
    [news.google.com] — Sunday, June 11, 2023 9:00:00 AM

    Bulls’ Patrick Beverley named ‘sleeper’ free agency target for Knicks  USA Today

  • “Everything we did was first class” – John Starks on how Pat Riley was as a coach – Basketball Network
    [news.google.com] — Sunday, June 11, 2023 8:11:38 AM

    “Everything we did was first class” – John Starks on how Pat Riley was as a coach  Basketball Network

  • Ranking 4 Knicks free agent targets with ties to Tom Thibodeau – Daily Knicks
    [news.google.com] — Sunday, June 11, 2023 8:00:24 AM

    Ranking 4 Knicks free agent targets with ties to Tom Thibodeau  Daily Knicks

  • 127 replies on “Knicks Morning News (2023.06.12)”

    I have been thinking about our starting lineup, if we have a very similar roster next year. Maybe flip I-Hart and Mitch. I-Hart might be a good fit with the starting lineup as he can help with ball movement, and a slight improvement in spacing. Well, at least taking his floater from 6-8 feet away. Also, Mitch might work well with the bench unit as they tend to play a little faster and more free-flowing. Maybe Mitch will get more inside passes with IQ and Hart running up and down the court.

    Whatever else happens today, nobody let Strat read this John Hollinger ranking of all the free agent PGs, which has Frank in the lowest tier, after Mac McLung and someone named Jamaree Bouyea:

    LOL

    I’ll go to my grave (hopefully not for a long while) thinking Frank’s impact is underrated by “experts” because what he does well is not measured well and underrated in general. But the way people think, he was so poor on offense in limited minutes last year I won’t be surprised if he doesn’t find another NBA job.

    If I was the owner/GM of Dallas and had Doncic and Irving to carry the offense, I’d give him another contract. Just give me solid defense, move the ball quickly and accurately, switch and help when they start taking advantage of our weak defenders, and practice your damn 3s and you have a job on the bench. If you develop a 3, you have a permanent spot in the rotation.

    Re: Macri’s newsletter about the possibility of acquiring KAT, I continue to be dead set against it. But my main takeaway is that we are in an enviable position regarding having the wherewithal to acquire a max player from a team looking to unload one without exhausting our asset bank or depleting our rotation beyond repair.

    Slow morning, so I’ll just report that 6′ 5″ shooting guard Ralph Simpson (not giant center Ralph Sampson), who used to play for Denver in the 70s and had three 20+ppg seasons, is also the father of neo-soul artist India Arie.

    My issue with KAT–and am not in the dead set against camp but the probably not a good idea camp–is that his talent (and contract) force you to build the team around him and so far Minny is on its 3rd or 4th iteration and it has never worked out. I am sure there are a host of reasons but he’s the constant. I’d rather take LaVine’s left knee if forced to.

    KAT and Julius would be a terrible frontcourt combo, at least on the defensive end. Macri seems convinced that Leon will not trade Julius to Minnesota — the whole “keep your star players happy, even if they’re no longer your star players, so that other players around the league will see that you take care of your guys” philosophy — so he would need to be moved in a separate trade, for either the mythical big wing or for a more defensive minded power forward. And we’d have to trade Mitch on top of that. Just too complicated, and that’s before we get into KAT’s salary.

    I liked this Ringer article on Jokic’s defense which argues that it’s actually pretty good.

    https://www.theringer.com/nba-finals/2023/6/12/23757489/nikola-jokic-defense-denver-nuggets-2023-nba-finals

    I don’t know that the evidence he is really good is there. But having stanned so many guys who really were bad defenders, (David, you are still special to me), I think it’s evident Jokic is not that. He also has to keep himself on the court and avoid cheap fouls.

    Hell no to KATE.

    Too expensive. Not a good defender. Has played mostly on bad teams. Didn’t get along with our coach who is a good coach. Would have to change too many parts in other areas of the roster to work with him.

    He’s just not that good. I don’t care how “modern” his game is.

    I was critical of Jokic as a defender but in watching him more I’ve come around on that front somewhat. He’s sort of workmanlike. My point has been that if his offense was on the level of, say, an iHart, he’d be a backup player at best. He is an elite rebounder and he’s a better defender than Enes or Vuc, but enough to make him a viable starter? I dunno, maybe like a Zubac or even a Jonas…but nowhere near the all-time great two-way guys like Wilt, Kareem, Hakeem, etc.

    the whole “keep your star players happy, even if they’re no longer your star players, so that other players around the league will see that you take care of your guys” philosophy — so he would need to be moved in a separate trade, for either the mythical big wing or for a more defensive minded power forward.

    Trade him and whatever else you need to trade to Portland for 3OA, then go to short and medium term battle with KAT, Brunson, Scoot, RJ, Mitch, Obi, IQ, etc.

    KAT talk is all just media non-sense. Only move that I can see Leon make is to replace RJ not Mitch. Base case scenerio is neither as they both had one hell of a series against Cleveland.

    E, why would Portland make that trade? Randle is a better player than Jerami Grant, but he’s not so much better as to be worth the third pick, especially since all Grant will cost Portland is cap space.

    I know you want Scoot, but we match up with them very poorly in terms of respective team needs.

    Whatever else happens today, nobody let Strat read this John Hollinger ranking of all the free agent PGs, which has Frank in the lowest tier, after Mac McLung and someone named Jamaree Bouyea:

    I think Kidd did a number (and not a good one) on Frank’s confidence and it affected his shooting. I remember watching a Dallas game and seeing Frank look to the bench for approval after some play. You can’t play effectively if you are always second guessing yourself. He’s only 24 and his shooting got markedly worse under Kidd. That’s not a sensible result for his age and I don’t think that it’s just noise. Something went wrong in his role or how he was handled.

    It’s not like Frank was exactly brimming with confidence here, and that was even during those brief periods when Hornacek or Fizdale gave him a longer leash.

    Trading for KAT only makes any sense if you’re trading Randle somewhere. We cant have Brunson, RJ, KAT and Randle on the court together and not give up 150 points a game

    No one needs a primer on KAT’s flaws, but how many players in the NBA fit the following description?

    1) Under 30
    2) Clearly address our well-known shotmaking woes
    3) Are plausibly attainable at a price less than “every god damn thing you have”

    Macri suggests RJ, IQ, Fournier, all of our protected picks, and our 2024 first unprotected. It’s hefty, but light years from the kind of packages we’ve seen traded for other guys, and arguably lesser guys at that.

    It’s perfectly reasonable to object to that package. I definitely would have cold feet about trading IQ. I don’t think it’s perfectly reasonable to reject out of hand the possibility of acquiring one of the best scorers in the NBA, who is 27 years-old.

    FWIW, Minnesota had the 13th ranked defense last year. They definitely had some personnel that we don’t have in McDaniels and Vanderbilt to account for KAT’s flaws, but I don’t think guys like that would be impossible to acquire with the assets we’d have remaining.

    Frank doesn’t have a confidence problem, he has a talent problem. His lack of confidence flows from that. He’s not confident in his abilities because his abilities are sub-NBA level. He should have a solid career as a reserve in Europe.

    What’s amazing is that just a few weeks back I was sure that KAT wouldn’t be moved, but then the Players Association for some dumb reason decided to agree to let the owners blow up the entire concept of how NBA teams are built, so now I think that a KAT trade pretty much has to be in play, because the economics are now totally destroyed. A Gobert dumping trade will certainly be their first attempt, but, again, considering the economics of the NBA are now destroyed, paying Gobert that much money doesn’t make sense for any team any more. Heck, paying Player X Salary Y now looks insane in the new NBA economy. You can pretty much name a player who has signed a free agent contract recently and his salary looks bad if he’s not a superstar (and the Knicks are about to be adding a couple of these contracts themselves with some upcoming signings. Josh Hart making $20 million a year now seems insane, when it seemed just a tad too high a month ago).

    I still can’t believe the Players Association agreed to this devastating new deal.

    Are plausibly attainable at a price less than “every god damn thing you have”

    Does every god damn thing you have include theoretical cap space? Cause if we get KAT, he’s set to make 50 million plus per year once his contract extension kicks in. He’s set to make 62 million the last year of that extension, which is a player extension.

    RJ, IQ, Fournier, all of our protected picks, and our 2024 first unprotected.

    This is an insane ask for someone who isn’t that good.

    We’d be much better off trading RJ and 4 first for OG or something along those lines.

    Or, you know, just chill with the team we have and sign Alex Burks to a short one or two year deal to shore up our shooting.

    We’re one of the best teams in the NBA with one of the youngest rosters. Why the fuck are we so eager to trade away all of that for dudes who aren’t very good at basketball but get paid like they’re fucking prime LBJ?

    I wish I had more confidence in Leon not biting on a KAT trade but he only avoided the drastic Spida disaster by a stroke of luck.

    The one thing I will say about KAT is that even at his salary (and barring a devastating injury) I don’t think he will ever be unmovable in a neutral trade. He’s like Melo in that regard…even with the near-max no trade clause train wreck, we still got back some useful stuff for unloading him. I don’t think you would ever get back what you paid for KAT but there’s far less chance that he’s giving you nothing during his player option year than someone like LaVine because he’s compromised and no one wants him, at least that’s the way I see it.

    Honestly, I think it would be best to wait and see what the market looks like before doing anything unless it’s literally an offer you can’t refuse.

    Yeah, the Wolves’ salary situation was dire under the old CBA and is downright untenable under the new one. Pretty tragic for them that they basically have to stick with the guy no one wants in Gobert because, well, no one wants him, and trade KAT.

    Swift, I see no scenario in which we’re better off trading ~80% of the proposed KAT package for OG Anunoby, and I like OG Anunoby. I don’t know what to tell you besides there is no metric that supports that idea, and it contradicts common sense.

    In any event, even if we made the proposed trade for KAT we’d still have enough assets leftover to make a great offer for Anunoby if we were so inclined.

    As for running it back, as someone who has unexpectedly emerged as one of the more optimistic voices about our position, there is no chance whatsoever we can internally improve our way to genuine contender status. It would be incredibly foolish to just sit around and let this roster get more expensive.

    This is all obvious, so I am assuming the front office is aware of it. A major move(s) is coming at some point. It’s fine to not want KAT to be that move, but since a major move is inevitable, you should have a preferred alternative if you hate the idea.

    “Frank Ntilikina coulda been something but Jason Kidd messed him up” is maybe my favorite take in the history of Knickerblogger

    Even at his very best, KAT hamstrings a team with that contract, and his lack of defense could make a chip close to impossible. But I do think Leon would bite if the price was right.

    I don’t think PHX really wants to trade Ayton now, but I wonder if a 3-teamer that sent Ayton to Portland, a package of Mitch + Quickley and picks to PHX, and the #3 to us could work? I doubt Leon wants that, and I don’t love the Brunson + Scoot combo, but I’ve been drooling over Amen Thompson’s workouts…

    Frank is the most durable comic asset we have.

    I feel like surrounding KAT with good defenders is something you have to do but is hard to do. Gobert didn’t work. Mitch wouldn’t either.

    I feel like KAT is close to a pure offense only big man, kind of like a Dirk character, and I think that’s a hard phenotype to win with.

    Noble, only because I am bored I’ll be a tich argumentative and take on two of your points.

    First, I’m not entirely convinced your “there is no chance whatsoever” position on internal development. I think there is a non-insane position that we were just under the line of actual ‘contender’ this past year — we had a good year, beat some decent teams in the playoffs, and on paper don’t look much worse (or better) than the Heat, who admittedly are getting their asses kicked in the finals, but being #2 is a pretty solid ‘contender’ position from any way you look at it.

    One could argue we’re only some small if significant tweaks from being at least Miami good. Which at least means we’d lose in the finals. Unfortunately two of those aren’t terribly likely — getting better outside shooting is something that could happen (some guys improve during the offseason, we get someone like Burk). The other two, however, are mental fortitude, which Jimmy et al. used to (what I consider) overachieve. And brilliant, creative coaching. I appreciate Thibs, but ‘creative’ is not one of his greatest strengths.

    But it IS possible that we incrementally move upward into lower class contender status where a few lucky breaks get us to the finals. (it’s also possible we backslide in a bunch of things [lookin’ at you, Julius] and do worse…)

    The other point is “This is all obvious, so I am assuming the front office is aware of it.” I’m not arguing this statement at face value — it’s just that basketball is also a business, and being a good, competitive team that fans love is a tremendous money-making machine. Winning a chip is obviously better, but the risk of a big move that blows up in your face and loses you your job has to be weighed against churning out good seasons and bringing in bucks safely. I don’t really know how front offices consider or weigh these, just making the point that they might.

    I think Kidd did a number (and not a good one) on Frank’s confidence and it affected his shooting. I remember watching a Dallas game and seeing Frank look to the bench for approval after some play. You can’t play effectively if you are always second guessing yourself. He’s only 24 and his shooting got markedly worse under Kidd. That’s not a sensible result for his age and I don’t think that it’s just noise. Something went wrong in his role or how he was handled.

    I’m going to try to stay away from this subject, but since I followed Dallas closely, I know what happened last year.

    1. He was hurt again all off season and did not work on his game. Then he missed most or all of camp.

    2. He was still hurt at the start of last season and missed the first 8-10 games.

    3. After that he got off to the inevitable very slow start because of all the missed time at the same time the younger Josh Green was playing extremely well. So he lost his spot in the rotation as a backup.

    4. Later in the season their draft pick, the younger Jaden Hardy, started showing something as a pure scorer. So he fell further down the depth chart as they tried to develop Hardy.

    5. At that point Kidd didn’t know what to do with him so he started playing him at PG again, moving him to SF, playing him at SG depending on who was hurt and what the matchup was.

    To sum up he was dreadful in part due to injuries and in part because his confidence level was still at a rookie level and complicated by not having any consistent role. I think he’s healthy this off season. He won’t shoot 25% from 3 next year if he gets another contract.

    The one thing I will say about KAT is that even at his salary (and barring a devastating injury) I don’t think he will ever be unmovable in a neutral trade.

    The problem is that the new CBA also makes it a lot harder to trade guys like KAT to another good team, which was one of the main benefits of the old system. Guys like Westbrook were major disappointments, and yet they could constantly be traded to another good team or at least another capped out team. Those deals are going to be a lot harder now, when capped out teams will have to literally match the salary exactly (and because of that, no one is going to be willing to be capped out, so you’re also stuck not dealing KAT to teams that are just below the cap).

    I just don’t think you unload a bushel of 1RPs (Knicks ptsd aside) for an underperforming player with the salary and extension KAT has. And that’s even if you really believe he’ll have a bounce back season for you.

    I get that he got paid the Small-Market/Minny Premium to stay w/the Wolves, a team whose fans just ask for them to give a damn.

    Was Minny sure that they had to give him a player op for that 61mil at the back end of his extension(‘27-‘28)??? If you believe RealGM, they project the ‘27-‘28 cap at almost 163mil. Is KAT ever going to be great enough to only leave you with a lil over 100mil to build a team around? Better yet, his ‘26-‘27 number is 58mil, against a projected cap of 155mil. About 97 mil to build a team around him.

    The Knicks have done alot better with their salary structuring vs the not too distant past. But taking on KAT’s contract means they’d have to do some serious salary gymnastics in the future to put the kind of talent around him (and Brunson) to field and maintain a contender. I won’t say it’s impossible, but it’s a little too much risk for my tastes.

    I like the idea of KAT for the spacing we need, but the combination of the extremely high salary and other moves we’d have to make for it all to make sense defensively makes me highly skeptical. Plus, as Z-Man pointed out it’s more likely the T-Wolves are going to want to take a better look at Gobert/Towns before pulling the trigger on a trade. So it might not even be possible until the trade deadline.

    If they make a big move, I think the most likely one is LaVine.

    I have issues with that move too because I can’t find evidence LaVine makes his team better using an electron microscope or the Hubble telescope. I don’t fully understand why not, but I still can’t find it.

    Raven those are all fair points, but when I say “genuine contender” I’m not including teams that can make a finals via a series of highly unlikely things falling into place. All teams need some luck to get there, but if you’re banking on getting a ton of it you’re not a contender.

    This is a bunch of tedious semantics to some extent but I think most people would agree that the Knicks as currently constructed are not there, and furthermore are less likely to get there by standing pat than they are to get there by making aggressive moves.

    I’m uncharacteristically applying something like a “vibes test” here because the empirics from this season are so weird–we punched the team with the 2nd ranked SRS in the mouth and then lost to the team with the 19th ranked SRS.

    I basically think we don’t have enough offensive fire power to plausibly win 4 playoff series right now, and kind of cringe at the idea of going up against the second apron with the current roster.

    I say all this as someone who, again, likes our current position. But a large part of that stems from the fact that I think our current position allows us to pursue serious upgrades.

    At first thought I’m like most here and think hell no to KAT but when you look at his basketball reference page I’m like Holy Shit KAT is a freaking beast.

    howdy BC…i’m sorry, i know you already talked this out and discussed it a few times – i don’t think i’m still getting it though…

    if you get the chance, do you think you can do a quick dummies guide to this new CBA deal and how it affects roster building stuff…

    What’s amazing is that just a few weeks back I was sure that KAT wouldn’t be moved, but then the Players Association for some dumb reason decided to agree to let the owners blow up the entire concept of how NBA teams are built, so now I think that a KAT trade pretty much has to be in play, because the economics are now totally destroyed. A Gobert dumping trade will certainly be their first attempt, but, again, considering the economics of the NBA are now destroyed, paying Gobert that much money doesn’t make sense for any team any more. Heck, paying Player X Salary Y now looks insane in the new NBA economy. You can pretty much name a player who has signed a free agent contract recently and his salary looks bad if he’s not a superstar

    I don’t get why anyone would assume we can’t internally improve our way to contender status. We’re right on the doorstep.

    Before this season started, did any of us foresee the massive step forward IQ took?

    After witnessing that, why are we so positive a similar jump forward can’t happen for Grimes, RJ or even McBride?

    Why do we think Leon was so hesitant to include Grimes in a trade for Mitchell?

    I know E hates him because he tries hard but Grimes is about to enter his third year, the year a lot of players take a big step forward. And his rookie year he didn’t even play that much cause he got hurt. He freaking started this year as a second year player. He’s got the foundation with great defense and a good three point shot.

    We got 3 young players who all are capable of taking an IQ level jump forward this season.

    The U.S. Senate’s Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations has opened a review of the PGA Tour’s planned alliance with the DP World Tour and Saudi Arabia’s Public Investment Fund.

    i don’t think they’ll actually stop this transaction from going through…absolutely ingenious move by the saudis…

    “PGA Tour’s agreement with PIF regarding LIV Golf raises concerns about the Saudi government’s role in influencing this effort and the risks posed by a foreign government entity assuming control over a cherished American institution,” Blumenthal wrote*. “PIF has announced that it intends to use investments in sports to further the Saudi government’s strategic objectives.”

    * Sen. Richard Blumenthal (D-Conn.)

    this feels like a really big deal…

    It’s just not a great idea to assume that everybody who has room to improve is going to improve, and that nobody who had a breakthrough season last year is going to regress. That is generally not the way things go. Yes, some of our young guys could improve, but Brunson and Randle could easily take steps back. We could easily get less productivity from Mitch.

    We were VERY fortunate this year that we got career seasons from Brunson and Randle, and it’s no guarantee those guys are going to play that well again. We had a lot of things go right last season.

    It kind of reminds me of the classic Simpsons episode, where Disco Stu is pointing at a graph that says “Disco Record sales” and the graph covers the years 1975-1979, so the chart is spiking. Disco Stu says “If these trends continue!!!”

    The trends aren’t necessarily going to continue. The good teams in this league are going to be looking to improve, and so should we. You shouldn’t just bank on getting every possible break going your way.

    I think people would assume we can’t internally improve our way to contender status because our offense was ranked 13th of the 16 teams that made the playoffs, and that was with Jalen Brunson going full god mode.

    There were reasons for optimism aplenty: we still have the best defensive rating of any playoff team, we have a guy capable of going god mode in the playoffs, and even with our offense halted we won a series against a very good team.

    But it is my strong opinion that a few tweaks aren’t going to get one of the worst playoff offenses to one of the best, which tends to be what you need to win the whole thing.

    I think Grimes is very likely to take a step forward next year. I’m not so sure he’s not better now than we think. The defense and hustle is already there. The efficiency is fine. What we are really talking about is upping his usage. But he’s 4th option on this team. It’s not like he’s going to get a lot of shots. On most nights Randle, Brunson and RJ are going to dominate the ball and Grimes is going to get the leftovers.

    I think the playoff experience is going to help him and with another year to work on his handle and ability to get to the rim, shoot mid range, playmaking etc… I think he’ll be more of a weapon.

    I don’t know how many more shots he’ll get with those 3 in front of him. Ideally, we’d want to up his usage and lower RJ’s. But somehow I think RJ is going to manage to get his shots, because well, he’s RJ.

    Wait, is that the same Saudi Arabia that almost certainly helped fund the attacks on the WTC, Pentagon and (the attempt on the) Capitol that killed 3,000 Americans, maimed thousands more, and traumatized millions, then used as pretext for a pair of trillion-dollar wars fought for the interests of private oil and natural gas that yielded virtually nothing for the American public except thousands of dead and maimed soldiers, with the survivors counted among our nation’s addicts and homeless, not to mention the deaths of as many as 100,000 Iraqi civilians and a power vacuum that led to ISIL and other violent extremists taking control over large swaths of the Middle East? Asking for a friend.

    It’s just not a great idea to assume that everybody who has room to improve is going to improve, and that nobody who had a breakthrough season last year is going to regress.

    I agree with this (especially Randle), but I think on a net basis with some young players improving, some going sideways, some having a down year due to injury, personal problems or randomness, the expectation is still probably for improvement on a net basis. Personally, I’m with you in thinking there are others teams with more internal upside likely than us. So I want to do something externally also. The question is Who?

    Asking for a friend.

    The answer is YES.

    You are 100% correct. Don’t even get me started.

    I’m still curious about where the tennis experts here place Pete Sampras in the GOAT debate.

    yes, that’s them…

    and, the only real rationale coming from the PGA – is that they can’t stop them from taking over the tour…the saudis will bleed them dry in legal fees…

    no doubt more complex than that…

    our major sports leagues have some protections – the other stuff is up from grabs…UFC got bought by china a few years ago…now the saudis bought the PGA…

    i wonder who owns bowling and cornhole…

    speaking of which – is there not a more vile sounding sport being played currently than pickleball…that stuff sounds terrible…

    IQ is not far off being an all star caliber player. He might not get there, but it would be exceedingly stupid to trade him for KAT with Randle still on the team

    Pete is well behind the Big Three. I would put him behind Laver who is the pre-modern GOAT.

    I would put him above the stars who preceded him like Connors, Mac, Lendl, and above his contemporary Agassi also.

    I would put him above Borg too because Borg retired at 26 with 11 majors and Pete accumulated. But Borg had a very similar peak.

    Basically, Pete is 5-6 all time. Until Carlos catches him.

    Also, what DRed said. IQ is really good. KAT and Randle on the same team is a recipe for trouble.

    Swift, I see no scenario in which we’re better off trading ~80% of the proposed KAT package for OG Anunoby, and I like OG Anunoby. I don’t know what to tell you besides there is no metric that supports that idea, and it contradicts common sense.

    The problem is KAT’s contract. A contract that with the new CBA would prevent us from going after another max player, or else we’d be on that 2nd apron really fast. If the move for KAT was to pair him with Brunson and another superstar that’s one thing, but KAT to be our superstar, i think i’m with Swift on this. Not worthy.

    Let’s not forget, during this regular season, the Knicks had the 4th-best offensive rating IN THE HISTORY OF THE LEAGUE (and the 3rd-best this season). And that’s with RJ playing a lot.

    Yes, Julius shat the bed in the playoffs, but I’m not sure a purely offensive player like KAT is the answer. It would take some insane heroics by Thibs to simultaneously get KAT and Julius to buy in on defense.

    Have we discussed the Raptors new coach? I have to admit i know nothing about their coach because before reading the tweet announcing it, i had never heard his name (Rajakovic). Do any of you know if he’s any good?

    What do you think the answer would be if the Saudi Public Investment Fund went to Adam Silver and said, “We’ll give you $300 billion for the whole league?”

    Regardless of how the answer is precisely couched, the result would be that we would be watching the Saudi Basketball Association.

    I think we have reached a delicate balance with our coach and players that let us overperform whatever individual talent we have in our team. We should try to follow the formula and change only the things that are clearly not working (which in this case, is RJ at the SF position)

    Adding KAT to this team will be like adding Kyrie to Dallas. It might look good on paper, and his numbers might be good here, but overall I think it will hurt our team’s performance.

    Very long post, sorry, but:

    We can see by the limitations of the current conference finalists that the Knicks really are one move from being a legitimate contender, but they also need to make a move now (or before the trade deadline), before the new CBA l destroys their flexibility. So I’ve been thinking about how they could make the leap to true contender, and a few things have become clear:

    1. Paying max rates for a one-way star is a ticket to oblivion. KAT is amazing on offense but a significant liability on defense. He hasn’t been and probably can’t be the centerpiece of a great team, and at that salary, is poison. Gobert is (was) amazing on defense but a huge liability on offense, and while he was a centerpiece of a great team, in Utah it took an equally transcendent offensive talent to balance out his deficiencies. And even then they had a hard cap as to how much they could achieve when it mattered. You simply cannot pay this kind of star the max.

    2. The Knicks as currently constructed do not have any two-way force; fortunately, their great one-way players are not being paid anywhere near the max, which is why they have real flexibility…for the moment.

    3. If you don’t have that two-way centerpiece, all the parts have to fit perfectly to truly contend. Miami is the obvious model – it boggles the mind sometimes how they get as far as they do most years. The Knicks are actually pretty close to their model – a team of relative cast-offs where the sum is greater than the parts. You couldn’t have Randle without someone like Mitch; you can’t have Mitch without someone like Brunson. And even if Grimes remains just 3-and-D, that’s essential to the team working – he takes the hardest cover, and he provides spacing to make it more possible for the creators (Randle, Brunson, and RJ) to work. So, any move we make has to take that balance into consideration.

    4. Because very few two-way players ever become available, most trades would have to be accompanied by other moves to maintain the balance. That is, you can’t trade Mitch + whatever for KAT without trading for a defensive forward like OG. The problem is that multiple trades are not easy to pull off – and even if they did so, changing over 40% or more of the starting lineup is asking a lot in terms of chemistry, which is also clearly a necessary ingredient for a contender.

    5. The only single player to be an exception seems to me Mikal Bridges. He alone checks so many boxes that he can be the one piece, the one move, that solves every problem. He can guard the big wings; he can shoot the 3 exceedingly well; he has shown he can sustain much greater usage without sacrificing efficiency; he can be a tertiary creator. Brunson, Grimes, Bridges, Randle, and Mitch would be very strong on both ends, with the similarly two-way IQ and iHart and the more limited but still useful Hart being a very strong bench.

    Conclusion: we should make an offer for Bridges the Nets would be insane to turn down – something like RJ+Obi+every pick (and pick swap) for the next six years. Bridges in a vacuum is not worth that much – it’s not like you can build around him: he’s a complementary player. But there’s no other player that would fit the Knicks so well, and the resulting core would be so well-balanced they could conceivably compete for 3-4 years. Bridges has unique value to this particular team at this particular moment. If I were running the Knicks, that’s the move I’d make. I’d accept the derision for paying way too much for him knowing that he could be the final piece that makes this team a genuine contender.

    On their own, OG won’t do it, KAT won’t do it, Lavine won’t do it…basically no one other than prime Kawhi would do it: a two-way wing that can score on multiple levels and guard like a mofo. The closest thing to that, the youngest and healthiest version of that, is Bridges.

    The NBA has a rule that sovereign wealth funds can’t own more than a 20% stake in individual teams, so I would have to think there’s…something saying they can’t own the whole league.

    Still, it’s pretty grim that it seems like the future of American professional sports is to be a large part of the PR apparatus for a number of ruthlessly authoritarian countries.

    That 20% rule doesn’t seem particularly difficult to get around. I mean, first of all if sovereign wealth funds own 20% of every team they’ll have more than enough pull with the league. Maybe more disturbingly though, it doesn’t seem very difficult to get around it with a straw purchaser of sorts. Get some random prince who’s aligned with the regime to buy a team instead of using the sovereign wealth fund directly and you’ve basically accomplished the same thing.

    There’s no clear cut policy solution. Disallowing foreign buyers is not a good idea for a number of obvious reasons. You can only hope the NBA and the other leagues will use the sizable discretion they have ethically.

    I’m not holding my breath!

    The NBA has a rule that sovereign wealth funds can’t own more than a 20% stake in individual teams, so I would have to think there’s…something saying they can’t own the whole league.

    And the people that could enforce that rule — the owners — would waive that rule, or not enforce it, in a heartbeat if the price was right. If they were getting $10B per team … bye, bye rule.

    The Saudi PIF just bought the PGA Tour. They can buy the NBA, too.

    The only way to stop it is some sort of national prohibition on foreign control of critical assets, as we do have in some places in the US. Sports teams aren’t really critical assets … or are they? Do we want the commanding heights of our society and culture to be foreign-owned? Or at least not bought out by petrodollars? Most countries say forthrightly, “No, we do not.”

    i gotta imagine this stuff has been going on in international soccer with both fifa, the olympics, and in different international leagues, track and field, tennis, whatnot, for a while – just really hitting home at the moment with the PGA…

    Relevant to E’s interests: Shams says the Pelicans really want to trade up for Scoot. They’ve got a ton of pics they can still move, and Ingram might be appealing to Houston or, especially, Portland, as he’s still just 25.

    The only single player to be an exception seems to me Mikal Bridges. He alone checks so many boxes that he can be the one piece, the one move, that solves every problem. He can guard the big wings; he can shoot the 3 exceedingly well; he has shown he can sustain much greater usage without sacrificing efficiency; he can be a tertiary creator. Brunson, Grimes, Bridges, Randle, and Mitch would be very strong on both ends, with the similarly two-way IQ and iHart and the more limited but still useful Hart being a very strong bench.

    I don’t disagree, but I think the Nets realize that Bridges is not only amazing, but fits perfectly into the new cap structure, with his cheap contract. He makes less money than RJ fucking Barrett, ya know?

    I don’t disagree, but I think the Nets realize that Bridges is not only amazing, but fits perfectly into the new cap structure, with his cheap contract. He makes less money than RJ fucking Barrett, ya know?

    What if additionally we take on Ben Simmons for Derrick Rose and Fournier? That must save them a lot of money, and we could simply waive Ben Simmons, let Dolan pay for it, and yeah, probably be in apron hell. But with a team that should be set for the next few years, which negates the problems of the apron …

    If the Saudis coming in has any effect on American sports that is similar to soccer in Europe, you’ll be in for a rough time.

    The Saudis are making a massive push for the 2030 World Cup that included buying Newcastle in the premier league (and promptly turning it from a bottom tier team to a Champions League team in 18 months), and now making gigantic salary offers to top veterans like Cristiano Ronaldo, Benzema and Kanté, plus many others that either haven’t accepted or haven’t accepted yet. They’re on a gargantuan sportswashing effort that is on a much higher scale than what Qatar did to get their world cup.

    It’s painful and it’s quickly killing my enjoyment of soccer with all the other bullshit investor money going everywhere too.

    The Nets trading us Mikal Bridges for any package has as much of a chance of happening as Lucas Vildoza being in our playoff rotation at any point in human history. Like last time, I advise you guys to spare yourselves the time and mental effort.

    The Nets trading us Mikal Bridges for any package has as much of a chance of happening as Lucas Vildoza being in our playoff rotation at any point in human history. Like last time, I advise you guys to spare yourselves the time and mental effort.

    I just looked up his stats in bkref, 5.5bpm for his career. We should not give up hope, next playoffs is the time!

    The Nets trading us Mikal Bridges for any package has as much of a chance of happening as Lucas Vildoza being in our playoff rotation at any point in human history.

    In theory yes. But what if it’s RJ + 5 picks (and swaps) + Fournier + Rose for Mikal and Ben Simmons, per iserp? Simmons is due $78mm over the next two years. With him off the cap and all our picks, the Nets will be able to completely rebuild their team in two years. It would be malpractice for Marks not to take that opportunity.

    Guys. There is logic and then there is blood rivalry.

    It.
    Is.
    Not.
    Happening.

    I am among the dumber people on this blog, which is why I rarely make absolute statements like this. But some things about sports and business are not rational, and this is one I know well.

    Stop trying to make fetch/Mikal Bridges happen! It’s not going to happen!

    Agree the Nets are not going to trade Bridges to the Knicks.

    I honestly wonder who the Suns would
    Rather have between Bridges and Booker right now. I’d be interested to hear if Bridges defense held up when he turned himself into a high efficiency high usage scored out of nowhere.

    He would be an amazing fit though. It’s too bad he was t available in the draft when we got to our pick.

    I’m still curious about where the tennis experts here place Pete Sampras in the GOAT debate.

    Behind Novak, Roger and Rafa but then it gets tricky. The rackets, speed of the game, style of the game etc.. has changed so much it’s hard to know how some of the older players would do today or how today’s players would do with that equipment and the slower different style. But if we ignore all that and just compare players to their peers, I’d have to say Borg. He piled up a huge number of majors in a short period of time even though he skipped the Australian almost every year. You can argue he ever won a major on hardcourt (partly because he wasn’t playing Australia), but Sampras never won on clay. I personally think Borg was more dominant in his era and against good competition so I’d place him 4th and Sampras 5th.

    Please “No” to the Saudis buying the NBA even in theory. I can only handle so much of watching this country go down a shithole and I’m already well past my limit.

    if you get the chance, do you think you can do a quick dummies guide to this new CBA deal and how it affects roster building stuff…

    Guys who got the max just because they were good (like KAT, Gobert) won’t get the max any more because they aren’t good enough.

    Which means guys who in the past would have definitely got the max (think Josh Giddey) might only get $24mm instead.

    Which means you don’t want to be paying Josh Hart and RJ Barrett $24MM.

    But it’s going to be great to be paying Jalen Brunson $24MM.

    The Knicks could be in one of the best positions under this new deal. (No one made out better than Portland, IMO.)

    If we pay Hart and IQ under the terms of the old deal, we’re fucked. But if Leon adjusts quickly and signs Hart and IQ to the right amount, all he has to do is unload RJ and he’ll have one of the more favorable roster positions in the league.

    I vaguely remember the time the Japanese bought Hollywood. Not like media is anything but ephemeral.

    Behind Novak, Roger and Rafa but then it gets tricky.

    I’m so confused. I thought from last thread some guy called Joker was the best tennis player ever. Or were we talking about Jokic and I misread the thematic thread crossings?

    As Messi recently said, I’d rather live in Miami. So would the Saudi royel family.

    I’m so confused. I thought from last thread some guy called Joker was the best tennis player ever. Or were we talking about Jokic and I misread the thematic thread crossings?

    You read well, it’s Novak Djokovic, aka Djoker.

    I’m so confused. I thought from last thread some guy called Joker was the best tennis player ever.

    I think Novak is Joker but I’m not a tennis fan so I’m not sure.

    There is logic and then there is blood rivalry.

    I am not disagreeing with Alan, and I know he is plugged in so if he says it I believe him, but I have to say….

    This has to be the biggest “blood rivalry” that completely evaded my attention.

    I remember some minor spats a decade ago when Brooklyn was sportswashing Putin’s atrocities by letting one of his criminal underlords run the team. But that mostly played out on billboards and in the Daily News.

    These teams have rarely engaged in any meaningful manner.

    It’s been reported, so I believe it. But I just don’t understand why Joseph Tsai and Sean Marks would refuse to deal with the Knicks.

    https://youtu.be/Lut6o0iigyU?t=229

    This is the litmus test for being a tennis fan. If you watch this and are bored, you will never like tennis.

    Pete is well behind the Big Three. I would put him behind Laver who is the pre-modern GOAT.

    Basically, yeah. A guy with a 64% win percentage at the French Open can’t be in the running.

    Rafa, who is routinely maligned in these useless Big 3 debates for his “weakness” on non-clay surfaces, has an 83% win rate at AO, 83% at Wimbledon and 85% at USO. And still tennis fans often call him a “clay-court specialist, without regard for his three SFs and three Fs at Wimbledon, which is the very antithesis of clay. (He’s 112-3 at the French Open, which is a stat that will forever boggle my mind. He’s only played two five-set matches in 115 attempts at Roland Garros. Totally insane, an even more unbreakable record than DiMaggio’s or Cobb’s.)

    Geez Strat, Sampras over Laver? Laver doesn’t have as many slams, but that is at least partially because he didn’t play in the open era. He did win on all surfaces. I think he dominated much more than Sampras did

    And my offer for Bridges would be…

    RJ Barrett
    Obi Toppin
    Quentin Grimes
    2024 Knicks 1st (unprotected)
    2026 Knicks 1st (unprotected)
    2028 Knicks 1st (unprotected)
    2030 Knicks 1st (unprotected)
    Add swap rights to flavor

    A. I’m throwing in all the picks so we can keep Quickley.
    B. This would seem crazy at first but it would age extremely well.

    Anyway, point is: Pete ain’t close to the top. Add in the fact that he might be the most boring man to ever hold a Slam trophy, and he’s a distant Tier 2 to the Big 3 and some of the greats that preceded him. He was lucky to play when grass was basically an ice rink and his serve, which was an amazing shot, was consequently unplayable for nearly a decade straight. If Kyrgios were playing in that era, he’d wipe the floor with the likes of Pete.

    (But also Kyrgios’s amazing, slap-shot western-grip modern forehand wouldn’t have existed back then, since most of Pete’s titles came in the natural-gut string era where topspin wasn’t as important as hitting flat and mean. Which, like, Kyrgios hits as flat as anyone when he wants to, but his grip means that he could not hit with an extended arm and an eastern grip and still keep the ball in play the way he does when he sends it back at 100 mph. Polyester strings totally re-invented the game toward grinding baseline play and advanced return tactics in the late 90s, which is why an aging, hobbled baseliner like Agassi somehow managed to make a few more deep runs in his 30s. That and steroids.)

    Denver is playing about as bad on offense as a team can: 1/15 from 3, 3/8 from the line, and 9 TOs. And despite all they, they’re only down 7. Even just improving from awful to mediocre and they should end the night champs.

    These are hardly in the category of all-time great teams but there is something really fun about watching non-stars compete so hard.

    I just had the paranoid thought that maybe the Denver staff isn’t drying the floor as thoroughly in the end of the court where they are defending. Tell me this is ridiculous.

    I just had the paranoid thought that maybe the Denver staff isn’t drying the floor as thoroughly in the end of the court where they are defending. Tell me this is ridiculous.

    I don’t see how that would benefit Denver. A Denver defender would be just as likely to slip as a Heat.

    They made the same call against the Knicks and upheld it if I recall correctly

    I have the sound off, don’t know if I am missing something, but he clearly kicked his foot out

    Lousy call but the Nuggets really have only themselves to blame if they lose this.

    It was not a lousy call. And frankly, I think the questioning of the judgment after a comprehensive review is pretty lame.

    There was so much time left, I have no idea why they went for a contested three there.

    Kicking your foot out on a fadeaway jumper is a natural movement. Aaron Gordon clearly moved down the three point line into where Jimmy’s foot was naturally going. It’s actually an obvious call on review, don’t see how anyone could dispute it.

    Next year at this time Playoff Jalen will be dominating the NBA Finals.

    Credit ti Denver, they waited a long time for a title and this team was very deserving. Jokic is an all-time great and he needed this to cement his legacy. But credit the Heat for going as far as they possibly could. They were worthy opponents.

    Well, obviously I disagree Z- Man. Kicking your foot out like that is not a natural way to shoot a three pointer. He clearly was trying to create contact.

    Not the most aesthetically pleasing game in the world but I’m glad Denver got the chip.

    And despite a magical and dominant season by Denver the NBA is still wide open next season.

    Well I think we have finally settled the is this jokic kid better than kristaps debate. Time to hold up my hand and say I was wrong.

    There is no set “natural” way to shoot a three pointer (or any other shot). It’s about whether you are hunting a foul or not. Butler was fading away and it’s totally normal for the feet to kick out on that kind of shot. It’s also obvious that Gordon moves down the line into Butler.

    Anyway, the fact that the review booth upheld the call says it all. It’s kind of silly when a call is reviewed for 5 minutes, a judgment is made by the professionals responsible for the review, and folks still think it was a terrible call. With all due respect, I nearly always defer to their judgment on a multi-angle review, and in this case, the reasons for confirming the call are overwhelmingly obvious to me.

    Great game! I think kicking someone in the groin should be an offensive foul every time.

    I found myself rooting for Denver just to get to the off season.

    Butler was not trying to kick anyone in the groin. as the shooter, he’s entitled to his space unless he makes a clearly unnatural motion, which he absolutely did not given the nature of his fading away.

    It’s like saying that if a guy gets hit in the face with an elbow, it’s automatically a foul on the shooter, when we know that’s simply not true.

    Mikal > OG + LaVine.

    I don’t buy that they won’t sell to us regardless of the price argument. In the real world, everything is for sale…including the white house.

    #1 problem is that Brooklyn does not have their own 1RP in the next three years. Marks can’t tank and rebuild. This is why Leon would have to take Ben Simmons of their hands too, – so that Marks can rebuild via RJ, this draft, free agency & other people’s picks. (NYK + PHX).

    Taking Ben is worth 2 picks…so its RJ, Obi, Grimes, expiring deals + 2 unprotected + swaps.

    You make a good point Director. The Nets are not going to tear it down without having their own picks. They are also not going to give their cross-town rivals the final piece in their championship puzzle, so that they can dominate the New York basketball scene more than they already do. The Nets need a point guard. Should they be dreaming up trades for Brunson?

    I have to disagree Z-man. I know what I saw and the replay booth blows calls all the time.

    Taking Ben isn’t worth anything.

    I don’t think giving is worth much, either.

    You’re gonna have to give up the whole kit and caboodle. Trade for Bridges as if he’s your last piece, or don’t bother.

    I would do it. I think completes this team like Rasheed did the Pistons.

    – He’s so impactful without the ball, which is exactly what you need when Randle and Brunson are on.

    – He’s also so impactful with the ball, which is also what we need bc Randle isn’t consistent and Brunson can’t do it all.

    – He’s big enough to form a playoff death lineup when Mitch can’t be on the floor: brunson-iq-hart-bridges-randle

    – not to mention the defensive death lineup we could play w iq, bridges, hart, and robinson.

    I say empty the damn cupboard for him. Trade for him like he’s peak Harden. He’s going to be a superstar soon. Just pay the price for it now.

    I don’t think giving is worth much, either.

    I meant to say giving them RJ isn’t worth much.

    Taking Ben isn’t worth anything.

    Lol..we agree in principle but give me a break. Ben is the worst contract in the NBA right now. Kid is owed $78M and he’s unplayable. Taking that albatross off their books is worth ~ two picks.

    “I have to disagree Z-man. I know what I saw and the replay booth blows calls all the time.”

    Nah, casual observers blow calls all the time but like to feel smart by blaming it on the replay booth. They almost never blow a call.

    The Nets don’t need cap space, Director. It doesn’t matter if his contract is bad; it’s no skin off their back either way.

    On another topic, the New York Times is reorganizing the Athletic (which they own after buying it last year). They laid off 4% of the newsroom and are reassigning another 4%. The Athletic was not profitable, so I guess this is to be expected. But in addition, to quote the head editor and the publisher of the Athletic,

    Perpich and Ginsberg wrote about goals to broaden coverage to meet audience interest — with a shift away from having one beat reporter for each sports team, the Times reported

    They want to be “telling the most compelling stories for fans across the teams in a given league, drawing on both local and national reporting expertise.”

    I’m really not sure their new approach is promising for hard core sports fans.

    See:
    https://abcnews.go.com/Business/wireStory/athletic-cuts-20-jobs-4-newsroom-new-york-100021406
    And
    https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/12/business/media/the-athletic-layoffs.html

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