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[news.google.com] — Thursday, May 4, 2023 3:27:00 PM
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69 replies on “Knicks Morning News (2023.05.05)”
Pros for the long wait between Game 2 and Game 3: It gives Julius and Jalen’s ankles more time to heal, and it gives Thibs and his staff more time to figure out how to work around Spo’s schemes.
Cons for the long wait: It also gives Playoff Jimmy’s ankle more time to heal, it also gives Spo more time to come up with wrinkles that Thibs will not expect, and it makes me increasingly anxious with each passing day.
Or, it would make me anxious if I hadn’t already accepted that we’re doomed.
I’m not anxious at all, i like that we’re still in the game. 😉 I’d be a lot more anxious if we had lost game 2. With the series tied i’m at peace, but now we need to split the Miami games too, or else i’ll get super anxious for game 5.
Yeah, this is a concern, but i think that having our team healthy is more important than what Spo can come up with. So fingers crossed that Brunson and Randle will be good to go.
Speaking of wrinkles, a gutsy move by Steve Kerr, starting JaMychal Green in lieu of Kevan Looney. It paid off. This begs the question, if Kerr was coaching the Knicks, what wrinkle would he go with for game 3?
We’ve now seen Thibs coach in part or all of three playoff series with this team:
1. Versus Atlanta two years ago, he either got thoroughly outcoached by Nate McMillan, or he simply butted up against the extreme talent limit of that roster, especially with Derrick Rose burnt out due to age and how much the team had to rely on him during the regular season. Probably a bit of both, but definitely not his finest moment.
2. Versus Cleveland, he coached rings around JB Bickerstaff, elegantly neutralizing a team with stronger top-end talent than ours.
3. Through two games against Miami, I think he’s coached pretty well in terms of rotations and tactics. But Spo is just on another level, especially since this is the first of these three series where we clearly have the more talented team. (If not the single most talented player.)
In hindsight, it’s amazing to think that in the early Heatles days, there was so much talk of Spo being forced out because LeBron and the others didn’t think he was good enough for them. The dude is fantastic.
Steve Kerr is one of my 3 favorite coaches, but…
Was it really a “tactical” move, and not a necessity, if we consider that Looney has been dealing with an illness (he did play only 12 minutes against starter JaMychal Green’s 13)?
Maybe the real move was a great game from Draymond and a resounding egg from AD… 🙂
If you go with the “AD only plays well every other game” theory, than it’s definitely Lakers in 7.
NBA narratives are always strange and that’s not going to change. The idea that Kerr unlocked a new level by starting Jamychal Green is totally hilarious but writers need a peg to hang a story on.
Klay was 8-11 from three. The Warriors were 21-42. That seems to be the essential fact.
I turned on the game in the third quarter, but it became such a blowout that Ham put in the bench early and I stopped watching a few minutes later. I did have two observations that I think are true but maybe small sample size related. One, neither team seemed as physical as either the Heat or the Knicks and maybe they weren’t playing as hard either. Two, the Warriors can really shoot well and that makes them really hard to defend. Any comments?
Watching other games has been amusing. Those teams will not be prepared for the physicality or intensity of the Knicks or Heat. I haven’t seen anything like it in any other series.
Of course, other teams are way more talented than either of us, so it may not matter. But it’s true nonetheless.
The Lakers shot 29% from 3 and the Warriors shot 50% on even higher volume, so yeah, I don’t think coaching was the biggest difference in the game.
I’m very anxious for the game but in some ways I expect it already to go terribly (or DOOMED) so I’m fine whichever way it goes. They’ll come at us with a major chip at their shoulders because of how game 2 ended and the calls that went against them. As long as we stay competitive and bring the same intensity it’s very possible to come back to New York with a 2-2 series and then anything can happen.
Thibs is doing a great job… there’s a tendency on this blog to characterize legit criticism of a specific aspect of his coaching as hate… I find that to be rather disingenuous but so be it… bottom line: he will stick with something that isn’t working for too long and he will be comically late making an adjustment sometimes.
I say comically because I thought it was kinda hilarious that he benched RJ down the stretch in game 2 as a reaction to RJ imploding down the stretch in game 1 instead of just calling time out in game 1 and doing it then.
His ATO plays are still shit.
And we are surprisingly poor at making defensive adjustments.
But by far the most frustrating thing about him is his refusal to hunt or punish mismatches. This is letting Spo get away with risks that should be punished.
We need to get to a point on this blog where it’s ok to be frustrated and angry about his weaknesses without others considering it as hate.
It’s just criticism and frustration. It’s the same as when we get mad at Bad RJ or Julius when he makes a dumbass play.
No one on our team is the best at their position, including the coach. There’s going to be times when their limitations frustrate us, especially when they are up against an elite opponent.
Thibs is doing an outstanding job even though he’s doing some things that are really stupid. And honestly, that’s kind of our whole team’s mantra. It applies to Leon, RJ, Randle… hell it even applies to Dolan.
Dolan is doing an outstanding job eh?
The credit that James Dolan deserves for building the small-market Knicks into one of the flagship franchises of the NBA can’t be overstated.
I remember a joke from a Mad Magazine parody of the later years of Happy Days, where Potsie complains that his performances at Arnold’s tend to be much shorter these days than when he was part of the series’ original main trio. Al tells him something along the lines of the audience liking him better the less they hear him sing.
That’s how I feel about with Dolan. By his abysmal standards, a season where his only terrible behavior has not directly involved the basketball product is a huge, huge success. Great work, Guitar Jimmy!
I hope Dolan knows I’m going to laugh at him when he’s dead
I’m all for focusing on the playoffs and thus will go back to the regularly scheduled programming right after quickly noting that Windhorst alluded to a Knicks-Giannis connection today.
He didn’t explicitly say he heard anything, but I don’t think that guy ever says anything that’s pure speculation.
is it saturday yet
Uh, I’ve been a Windy’s regular for years and I think he does 🙂
Sometimes he hit it (the AD trade) sometimes he misses (Spida), sometimes he talked about it for so long that sooner or later it will happen (Dame).
I’m still laughing about the “speculations” he made before Giannis’ last extension (I even trolled him about it on Twitter).
I’ve been away for a few days because of the death of my girlfriend’s brother. He was 59 and had a heart attack and died in his sleep. He was the same age as me. It’s a very sobering feeling for me. Makes me feel like I’m “on deck”.
The “genius” of coaches like Spoelstra and Kerr is their ability to have all of their roster ready to go. It would be great if we could throw in Fournier or Rose for an added wrinkle, but we can’t. They are too rusty. I believe coaches can learn and grow with experience just like players, so I hope Thibs learns how to manage his roster better.
BTW I’m okay if Giannis wants to play for our beloved DOOMED Knicks 😉
For pure, unadulterated made-up and undoubtedly incorrect speculation, I’d say the big star we’re most likely to get is Doncic.
Only because the pneumatic tube between the Knicks and the Mavs is so frequently used. And he probably has the greatest odds at the moment of getting totally pissed off at his organization.
It’d have to be Luka walking, though, as I’m pretty sure a) Cuban won’t trade him, and b) Cuban’s probably still pissed about Brunson.
There — look, I’m a beat writer!
“But by far the most frustrating thing about him is his refusal to hunt or punish mismatches. This is letting Spo get away with risks that should be punished.”
I thought they hunted Duncan Robinson whenever possible. Same thing with Herro in those regular season games. Isn’t what those pick and rolls are for, or is there something else he should be doing?
I’m pretty sure that I wouldn’t have said this a year ago, but at this point I don’t know that I’d even want Luka. He’s obviously less cancerous than Kyrie, but he certainly comes with a lot of shit that I’m not sure I want anywhere near this team. Not sure that the juice is worth the squeeze anymore, and he’s becoming increasingly more difficult to root for all the time. Not to mention that we’d have to gut our team of all the guys we actually like in order to get him.
Giannis wants to come to the Big Apple? Figure out a way, Leon.
I thought Giannis had a bit of a down year and his ft shooting would drive me nuts. I’m not sure how well his game is going to age once he starts to lose his athleticism. Give me Luka any day of the week.
I thought Giannis hated the Knicks because he felt the organization did his brother dirty?
I’d be shocked if he asked out anytime soon. Yes, the roster is aging and asset-poor due to the Jrue trade. (Which was nonetheless a great trade for them, because banners hang forever.) But they also maxed out with that coach, and hopefully Bud’s replacement can be more flexible with his scheming. Plus, Giannis seems to genuinely care about the idea of carrying the banner for a small market team, playing for just the one organization, etc.
I have to think this is a case of Windy blowing smoke.
Also, happy 25th birthday to iHart!
I didn’t mean to imply that I wouldn’t want Giannis, especially at the 5, but I would rather have Luka. Milwaukee is a very old and expensive team. Maybe they are considering blowing things up.
A couple of Knicks related bits from Marc Stein’s latest newsletter:
I’m also bemused by Rose’s refusal to speak, although as someone who hates public speaking with every fiber of my being and would rather set myself on fire than do so (sadly I have to do so fairly frequently and so am always dealing with third-degree burns of the psychic variety), I’m kind of rooting for him to go the rest of his Knicks career in utter silence. Something of a chubby, somewhat irksome hero…
interesting, I still need to do a will…
all you can about the feeling is prepare, enjoy the day and try to do the right stuff…
I mean, the universe is kinda coded to recycle us as soon as possible…I don’t think it’s meant to be too personal…
was a bit upset the other day and kept thinking of 2Pac:
I woke up and screamed – fuck the world
I got up and screamed – fuck the world
that song helped get me through some long shifts doing semi-conductor manufacturing…
now though, you got me thinking about that song: I see death around the corner
motherfucker just sits in the room all day long with that motherfucking ak47, he don’t eat, sleep, drink, fuck, nothing…
embrace the fear and adrenaline raven…revel in it and smile with mad glee…
think of it as a trip to a haunted fun house 🙂
you want to be there, for the excitement of it…and yeah, for the money too…
“Hater” became the provocative and tribal ‘net-synonym for “dissenter” many ‘net iterations ago. Can’t see that one ever changing.
Do you consider Dolan a nerd … or a dren?
I thought that Game 3 was tonight, and now I am very disappointed.
I am going to watch Game 3 at a sports bar with my brothers and some friends. I do not like watching playoff games of teams I care about at sports bars. I mean, when they win, it’s fun, but when they lose, it’s extra annoying, and I like being able to comment on the blog as I watch.
I’m gonna push back a bit on the idea that anyone who criticizes Thibs for legit mistakes is quickly labelled a “hater.”
The day Thibs was hired there was a VERY vocal contingent on this blog that HATED the hire. And not just on this blog but in Knicks fandom in general. This hatred was based on narratives that formed when he was in Chicago and Minny about him wearing down players and causing them to get injured, was too rigid and stiff, out of touch with modern basketball and couldn’t connect with young players and had no interest in developing them.
While there could be elements of truth to all of these ideas, IMO they became really overblown, almost caricatures of themselves. To the point where any time a young player got a few less minutes or someone twisted an ankle, these narratives were brought up.
When countered with the real evidence that he has a pretty good winning percentage as a coach, has players that love playing for him, has taken many teams to the playoffs, has developed young players and has evolved as a coach, named coach of the year (twice!)…these were hand waved away.
So yeah. It is totally fine to criticize Thibs. I’ve had moments and games where I questioned decisions he’s made. But what isn’t cool is when those criticisms are followed by rehashed cliched narratives that lack nuance and subtlety and aren’t really 100 percent true.
Criticism about specific decisions is one thing. But when that other baggage is added, then yeah, you a hater!
I don’t think coaches matter very much. I am sure I am in the bottom 10% on KB in that regard.
I was against hiring Thibs and against the direction we took at the time generally. And you know what, things have turned out much better than I expected. Not because of Thibs but not in spite of him either. He has been good. We have been good.
I feel fantastic about it and give all the credit where it’s deserved. To Josh Hart on his birthday.
Yeah, I’ve been reading over the years various people espousing that coaching doesn’t matter, or matter much (maybe it was just Owen repeating himself!), but that always felt false. When I see what a good coach can do (Pops, Spo, Kerr) and what a bad coach can do (Fiz), it’s clear (to me) that coaching matters a lot.
On the flip side, a lot of coaches aren’t terribly good, or at least terribly clever, and so what they do kind of doesn’t matter much. At least if their teams are playing against one another. No in-game tactical changes, etc. But put them up against a good (or bad) coach?
Having said that, good players matter more.
did you think today was Saturday or that the game was Friday?
first thing I do when I do stop working, for a while at least- i am going to purposefully forget the calendar as much as possible…fuck that construct…
maybe remove all the clocks in my home too…
z-man, are you still tracking the days of the week?
The former. How in the fuck are they having so many days off between Games 2 and 3?
I’ve watched some clips Sam Vecenie posted on YouTube breaking down various things. According to him Thibs is very good at preparing his team for what the Heat want to do, but Spo adds some wrinkles to take advantage of the Knicks making good reads. Thibs is good, Spo just seems better.
That said, adding Grimes in over RJ down the stretch worked wonderfully and they were able to adjust to the zone eventually.
whatever the profit maximization algorithm said about which games should be played when…the last iteration must have spit out that knicks-heat needs to go on saturday…probalby to stagger all the permutations of possilbe Game 6 and 7’s if they go that far….
As far as Butler’s injury…there is only so much you can do in a few days- ice, stim, rest, compression, etc..to get blood flow in the area and imflammation out of there..but those ligaments and tissues are stil stretched and even though he may feel good at tip off…he is at high risk of hurting it again…i would go at him relentlessly and make him run/stop/run etc…and just make sure that thing doesn’t feel to good at halftime…
@Geo Please do a will soon. Too many people die without one and it creates a mess for the heirs.
Another strong quarter for MSGS. It makes being a fan that much more enjoyable.
He brought in the guys who built the team, didn’t he?
It’s not like they were no-brainers.
You’re making this up.
The criticisms are usually followed with stats and specific examples. No one here (except maybe E) is upset about what Thibs did in Minnesota.
Bottom line: no one actually hates Thibs. You’re the ones pushing narrative.
Hubert, he’s not making it up. I was there, there were definitely people who didn’t accept the arguments about his past successes (I was one of them, although I didn’t ever write anything about it).
And he didn’t say anyone hates Thibs. Some people hated the hire, and that position seemed to have been held for a while with some.
Nowadays there don’t seem to be all that many who are truly down on Thibs, except for various decisions (or lack thereof), often related to gametime reactions (or lack thereof).
Which I think is perfectly appropriate Monday morning quarterbacking, a fan’s favorite activity (since we don’t get to fuck up game management in the moment ourselves).
His comment suggested that we have been hand waving the success he has had doing those things as a Knicks coach.
That when he wins games here, develops players here, is awarded coach of the year here, the Knickerblogger community just hand waves that away.
And that’s just false. The people who were vocally against his hire (again, except maybe E) have largely responded very well to the evidence he has given us during his current tenure.
I made those pro thibs arguments so I would remember if people dismissed them or not. I’m not making it up.
Unless you’re saying his career success, 2 coty awards and obvious love some of his players have for him is made up? Or you’re saying it’s made up that he’s developed young players?
Swifty, you said…
If you’re talking about hand waving two COTY awards, you can’t be talking about conversations that took place when he was hired because he only had one.
The problem that coaches face is that their evaluation is weighted against them. Their ceiling is only as high as the players they have, but their floor is their own. So it seems that all the coaches fall on the bad side, and that’s why you get merry-go-round each summer.
NBA coaches are like theater directors. Their contributions to the production are limited, as a play relies a lot more on the playwright and the actors for its success. That’s why there are only a few theater directors in the history of the world that anybody can even name. Yet, they still get the starlets when the show kills, and still get told that they’ll never work in this town again when it bombs.
This commentating team is the absolute worst
Not sure how that is not a flagrant
I think coaches have a small impact that is all out of proportion with amount we talk about them.
Put Jokic on any team and he will make the coach look very good.
And, vice-versa, if you have Curry and Klay play in isolation and nail Draymond Green to the bench, you’re going to look very bad when Steve Kerr comes along and fixes it.
Coaches will always face a disproportionate amount of both criticism and praise, and honestly that’s part of professional sports. It is always easier to simply change coaches than change the entire team, specially in leagues with a cap system and guaranteed contracts. It’s just a part of how sports are structured, and what the coach actually does on the day to day of their jobs is not something even analysts know for sure, so we can never really tell how responsible they are for what happens and what doesn’t.
I generally agree with Owen, that the impact coaches have is far overstated, but I do believe some specific guys, the Spoelstra / Popovich types, have built enough of a track record through multiple years and different rosters that it definitely means they are above the rest in terms of impact.
Donnie, you just made me think of Thibs together with a starlet in a nightclub. It’s not realistic, but I can’t unsee it either.
luke walton won 24 games in a row..nuff’ said…
Spo is great. My buddy from Miami is much smarter than me and loves talking about how amazing he is. Which fine. Pop too.
But Spohas coached 6 hall of famers. Pop rode one of the top ten players of all time. If Tim Duncan doesn’t end up in San Antonio does anyone think Pop ends up a top 5 coach of all time? No chance.
I do think Jason Kidd and Mark Jackson might be very bad.
Harden is so passive tonight it’s bizarre
Man, I am feeling this today too. A musician colleague of mine who is younger than me died yesterday from a rare, aggressive form of cancer. Sobering indeed. Sorry for your loss.
Al Horford with the dagger. Oof
And sorry for everybody’s loss. Cancer is garbage and it’s a big reason I cut back on alcohol.
best retort ever:
You’re making this up.
only thing to top that in a post – is the opportunity to say it in person 🙂
No superstar has ever had more of those weird, horrifying performances than Harden in the playoffs, it’s crazy. Shooting 3-14 after a 2-14 last game is just unacceptable. I’ve always defended his game in general because I feel he’s been far too disrespected in the past, but this is just terrible.
Billy Martin said he always made his big adjustments the day that Guidry pitched. Puts it all in perspective.
I brought up when thibs was hired as a starting point bc that’s when we started talking about him. The thibs convo has been going on for two plus years now.
Swifty, you have to be fact based. If you’re saying people rejected Thibs after he won two COTY awards, you’re talking about 2021 and beyond, not his Chicago tenure.
Also, Swifty, keep in mind that a lot of what you think is anti-Thibs is really just anti Z-Man. The guy went on a 12 month tear of insisting that every good thing that happened to the Knicks was 100% attributable to Tom Thibodeau, and he logged into the site 24/7/365 to fight with anyone who disagreed.
Thibs is the best thing that happened to the Knicks since Melo …whatever that actually means!