[news.google.com] — Friday, February 10, 2023 6:07:57 AM
Is Joel Embiid Playing Tonight vs Knicks? 76ers Release Injury Report for 2022 NBA MVP Runner-up The Sportsrush
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What NBA trade deadline moves mean for Knicks’ playoff hunt New York Post
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Knicks keep mentor Derrick Rose as trade deadline passes New York Post
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[news.google.com] — Thursday, February 9, 2023 10:16:00 PM
Josh Hart bringing multiple much-needed qualities to Knicks lineup New York Post Knicks trading Cam Reddish and future first-round pick for Josh Hart Yahoo SportsSources — Knicks to acquire Josh Hart, sending Cam Reddish, others to Blazers ESPN
[news.google.com] — Thursday, February 9, 2023 9:34:13 PM
‘We’ll See!’: Tom Thibodeau Hints at Knicks’ Plans For Josh Hart Sports Illustrated
[news.google.com] — Thursday, February 9, 2023 9:17:00 PM
Knicks are better and likeable, that’s good enough for now New York Post
[news.google.com] — Thursday, February 9, 2023 8:48:39 PM
Teams were interested in Obi Toppin, but the Knicks’ asking price was “significant” Posting and Toasting
[news.google.com] — Thursday, February 9, 2023 8:16:08 PM
New York Knicks vs. Philadelphia 76ers outlook, odds for 2/10: Josh Hart joins Jalen Brunson Yardbarker
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Kobe Bryant blamed Spike Lee for three big-scoring games against the New York Knicks Basketball Network
[news.google.com] — Thursday, February 9, 2023 6:41:35 PM
New York Knicks vs. Philadelphia 76ers Prediction, Preview, and Odds – 2-10-2023 Winners and Whiners
[news.google.com] — Thursday, February 9, 2023 3:59:30 PM
The Josh Hart trade: What it means for the Knicks The StricklandJosh Hart bringing multiple much-needed qualities to Knicks lineup New York Post Knicks trading Cam Reddish to Blazers for Josh Hart at NBA trade deadline New York Post
[news.google.com] — Thursday, February 9, 2023 3:53:50 PM
Knicks quiet deadline: Rose, Fournier, Toppin stay put amidst team’s … AMNY
[news.google.com] — Thursday, February 9, 2023 3:41:00 PM
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[news.google.com] — Thursday, February 9, 2023 3:34:10 PM
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[news.google.com] — Thursday, February 9, 2023 3:20:00 PM
Knicks sitting pretty ? for now ? after Nets blow up with Kyrie Irving, Kevin Durant trades New York Post
[news.google.com] — Thursday, February 9, 2023 2:53:18 PM
Knicks Fans Breathe Sigh of Relief After Zach LaVine Trade Rumors Fizzle at Deadline Bleacher Report
[news.google.com] — Thursday, February 9, 2023 2:13:46 PM
New York Knicks reportedly pursuing two-time All-Star ahead of NBA trade deadline Sportsnaut
[news.google.com] — Thursday, February 9, 2023 1:46:31 PM
Knicks and Bulls discussing Zach LaVine trade Posting and Toasting
[news.google.com] — Thursday, February 9, 2023 1:33:00 PM
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[news.google.com] — Thursday, February 9, 2023 1:02:40 PM
Derrick Rose Trade Rumors: Bucks, Kings Among Teams Checking in on Knicks PG Bleacher Report
[news.google.com] — Thursday, February 9, 2023 12:57:57 PM
Pelicans, Grizzlies and Knicks have significant offers for OG Anunoby Hoops Hype
[news.google.com] — Thursday, February 9, 2023 12:55:00 PM
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[news.google.com] — Thursday, February 9, 2023 12:53:44 PM
Chicago Bulls Rumors: Team talking Zach LaVine trade with Knicks Da Windy City
[news.google.com] — Thursday, February 9, 2023 12:29:26 PM
Report: Knicks register serious interest in Pistons vet Bojan Bognadovic Empire Sports Media
[news.google.com] — Thursday, February 9, 2023 11:45:00 AM
NBA Trade Rumors: Knicks, Bucks, Lakers interested in Pistons’ Bojan Bogdanovic Detroit Bad Boys
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Bojan Bogdanovic has garnered serious interest from Lakers, Knicks and Bucks Hoops Hype
202 replies on “Knicks Morning News (2023.02.10)”
Random thought #1:
I wasn’t aware of a little thing in Hartenstein’s contract.
This year he has 1.05M in “unlikely incentives” if the Knicks win more than 40 games and go to the playoffs (fingers crossed).
Same thing for next year, with the difference that the “unlikely” incentives can become “likely” based on this season’s end results and (if memory serves) the 1.05M can count against our cap space next summer.
Random thought #2:
Bogdanovic and Burks are still in Detroit. I’m the only one that find it strange?
Random thought #3:
Thursday’s deadline recap:
4 four-team deals
2 three-teams deals
Trades include: 49 NBA players, 4 draft-and-stash players, 7 1st, 37 2nd, 2 1st swap, 1 2nd swap.
It was fun.
Random thought #4
It’s early but Embiid is listed as “questionable – game time decision” (see bot).
So the Rose MO seems to be:
1. Trade a perfectly cromulent player who isn’t a #thibsguy for draft capital
2. Trade draft capital for a perfectly cromulent player who is a #thibsguy (patent pending)
Max, one of my first thoughts today was that Detroit had to be one of the worst-run teams in the NBA. What are they doing? Head-scratching trades, head-scratching failures to trade, bad drafts, just a mess. I’d rather be Orlando and now even Sacto than Detroit.
ess-dog, this was also Cartman’s business plan with underpants gnomes, if I recall correctly.
Back to the rotation, there are two big choices Thibs has to make:
1)Does the addition of Hart bring us back to 10 guys playing regularly, or does Deuce simply go back to the dungeon for now? I’d hate to see Deuce vanish after he’s finally made offensive strides, but I don’t think it’s a coincidence that the team has played better with 9 guys. It’s let Thibs mix and match more, and it means we always have at least two shot creation guys on the floor at once. If we go back to the hockey lines, then it’s basically just IQ with the backups, unless Thibs finally unleashes Hart as a high post passer.
2)Regardless of 1, which gives give up roughly how many minutes for Hart? As I’ve said, I’d love to see a significant downshift in RJ time, but I think that’s unlikely. And even if it is, Hart’s a guy who was playing 30+ minutes in Portland. The minutes will have to come from multiple guys. Would Thibs be willing to do RJ as a small-ball 4 again, which would cut even further into Obi’s time?
Re: the Nets, I honestly think that they did more good for their franchise than any other team, and it isn’t even close. I also wouldn’t be holding my breath expecting them to drop significantly in the standings.
Afte last night’s nice home win, they are at 33-22, with 27 games left. with 8 of them vs. Houston, Charlotte, Orlando, Detroit, Utah and OKC. I don’t see them going worse than 13-14, which would get them to 46-36. That should be good enough for a top-6 seed. They have a lot of weapons and I’m thinking they will have an edge to them. I could see them winning 50 games if they settle on a rotation and stay healthy.
I think Deuce becomes break glass in case of emergency.
Quick will become the backup 1, and Hart will back up both RJ and Grimes and will take more of their minutes if they don’t progress.
So yeah, still a 9-man rot but maybe a tenth guy gets a few minutes here or there.
The Nets, kind of out of nowhere, have become an eminently rootable team.
As to the Knicks, I’m sort of bracing for a loss tonight; although the Sixers have not played particularly well lately, they should be motivated to bounce back from their ugly loss at MSG. Then we have the Jazz on a B2B, hopefuly we can prevail there. And after that, two games that I think are critically important for positioning: the Nets and @Hawks. We absolutely need to get at least one of those.
Some context for you @pepper…
I was recently in Los Angeles and paid an exorbitant sum to see the Smashing Pumpkins (with Janes Addiction) at Hollywood Bowl. It was less than $1,500, but it was too much. After doing so, I came to the blog seeking validation for a choice I was not regretting, necessarily, but feeling a little shameful about. It was excessive, you know? Like driving a Tesla in Malibu.
Donnie, in possession of an elephant’s memory, humorously trolled me about it and my logic for not bringing a date.
Based on musical merit alone, the Smashing Pumpkins would not make the list of bands I’d pay near 1,500 to see. But there was a story here…
Young Hubie had tickets to see the Pumpkins (his favorite band at the time) on a summer night in 1996 at Madison Square Garden. But early that morning, their touring keyboardist OD’d and Jimmy Chamberlain was arrested. 26 years later, I had never scratched that itch.
In addition, I was visiting LA, and being out of town tends to bring a splurge mentality.
And it was at the Hollywood Bowl, one the all time great venues in America.
So I went to buy two tickets for the show on stubhub. All in, with fees, it came in at almost $1,500 for a pair average seats. The second ticket was going to be for a Russian who models part time and runs a wellness center where she performs sound baths during the day and practices numerology with her clients. The Pumpkins are not exactly her cup of tea steeped in psilocybin.
It occurred to me that taking her to this concert was not the most efficient use of resources. It would be like trading a mid-first round pick for a player you could acquire for much less in three months.
So like a wise allocator of assets, I looked at what I could get around the same price point. And it turned out, not only could I get into the legendary pool circle (almost the worth the price itself), but I could actually get a seat in the first row mid center and have enough money left over to take her out to a nice dinner, which is what she wanted anyway.
So not only does this make the conversation a little lighter and provide context to Donnie’s clever inside jab, it draws a neat parallel to my frustration with our POBO:
If you have unlimited resources, by all means, pay through the nose to take the Russian model to a concert she doesn’t particularly care for. But when you have limited resources, like me, or like a team in the national basketball association, for fuck’s sake, use them wisely. Otherwise you will enjoy the hell out of the short term but find yourself up shit’s creek later when you don’t have the means to replenish the resources you spent recklessly.
I find what Detroit did (and didn’t do) very odd.
You just traded stuff to get the pick to draft Duren who they were supposedly very high on. And now you trade for Wiseman who they’ve already anointed the starting center? I get the idea that you just accumulate talent when you’re where they are in the win curve, but still seems odd.
I guess they really are going to try and win next year – Burks and Bojan are good.
Regarding the last monster thread’s talk about Josh Hart — when did we start assuming 27 year olds were certain to decline over the next few years? My inner sense (very reliable!) has always been that players probably hit absolute peak in mid 20s, then they plateau until 30-31, start to decline 31-33, then probably steeply decline thereafter. The ones that decline the fastest are the ones who rely the most on explosiveness, whereas the ones who rely more on skill / know-how decline less. Shooting is the most obvious “skill” that keeps people in the league, but just knowing how to play and where to be is a real skill too.
He’s an excellent passer, tremendous rebounder, and by all accounts is a good individual and team defender. He’s shown the ability to be high usage if necessary (24.5 last year) but probably doesn’t feel the need to shoot a lot. And while his 3 point shot hasn’t been great this year at 30.4%, he’s a career 34.3% shooter on over 1300 attempts – not exactly a non-shooter.
For all the hemming and hawing about “we could have just signed him this offseason with the MLE” — well, you only have one MLE, and so if you trade for the guy and use bird rights to re-sign him, you still have an MLE to go and get someone else. And of course you might have competition for him at the MLE and so you might not get him even if you want him. And if his market value is > MLE (which it probably is), then of course you have no chance at him unless you do a S&T with the Blazers, which might cost you more than we just gave up.
Anyway, the price wasn’t low, but if you love the player, then a mild overpay to make sure you get your guy is ok.
Yesterday, while still waiting for the Phoenix’s guys (can we assume Mikal and Cam Johnson are mainstays?), they played 9 men, with Knicks’ killer Sumner DNP-CD (!!!).
In the regular season, with the right coach, depth is a strenght and they’ll be dying to show the world their mettle.
I agree that they wont go away easily.
It’s not a matter of players declining at certain ages and/or what those ages are. Josh Hart is already in decline.
by the way re: Hart —
over the last 2 seasons or so he has basically averaged 16 points, 10 rebounds and 6 assists per 100 possessions with a TS of about 60.
This is naturally a very imperfect way of comparing players, but if you stathead those stats, the players on the list are people like Giannis, Magic Johnson, Harden, Lebron, Embiid, Barkley, Durant, and Kareem.
Obviously he’s not close to the overall value of those players, but the idea is — he’s a good player!
Yesterday was crazy. Things I like about the trade deadline moves:
1. Even though the new report says we gave up 2 picks in this deal, I like the Josh Hart move. Love it if we can sign him long term on a team friendly deal.
2. The Lakers’ rebuilt roster. Now or never for them.
3. Jae Crowder to Milwaukee
4. Phoenix’ New big 4
Things I don’t like about the trade deadline:
1. Phoenix’ depth
2. Saddiq Bey in Atlanta
3. Just what in the FUCK are GS, Detroit, Denver, and LAC doing?? Dubs got rid the only size on their roster to bring Payton back. Admittedly, they needed him..but not at Wiseman’s expense. Denver and the Clips have ZERO PG depth- I still love Hyland tho..hope he stays healthy. I don’t even wanna talk about Detroit. Are we sure Woodson’s not consulting Troy Weaver??
One thing I am very intrigued by:
1. How Brooklyn’s roster plays. They are long and switchable with a ton of guys between 6’5″ and 6’10” in their rotation. One of them can play PG in Simmons. It’s actually quite impressive how quickly they pivoted without fielding a horrible team. If Jacque Vaughn can teach defense, they still could be a tough out.
The rest of the season is gonna be awesome
I would bet literally any amount of $ that E has not watched more than 10 minutes of Josh Hart basketball this year. But of course he’s totally sure that a 27 year old is declining.
I mean, if we had put Josh Hart’s picture in a lineup of 10 NBA players 72 hours ago, could E even pick him out?
“The Nets, kind of out of nowhere, have become an eminently rootable team.”
Agreed re: rootability, although not really out of nowhere.
They were gifted (you could say deservedly so via an excellent job of setting the table) two superstars in their primes for zero cost, so it was sort of a no-lose situation. Despite the disappointment and embarrassment that transpired, those two retained enough of their value to bring back highly rootable players Spencer Dinwiddie, DFS, Mikal Bridges and Cam Johnson. They already had a bunch of decent guys on the roster. And Jaque Vaughn is a rootable coach.
They have gone from a league-wide embarassment to having an embarassment of riches. I count at least 12 solid NBA rotation players, not even including Sharpe and Sumner. They might have some tough decisions to make about minutes. I mean, who gets benched? Wantanabe? Mills? Thomas?
Typically, the eye test is disfavored around here, but the numbers show a clear pattern of decline. I sketched them out yesterday at some length and won’t bother to do it again today.
I agree with this assessment. The Nets are good, and they’re in good shape. Let’s not forget how great Ben Simmons can be when he’s not suffering from mental health issues.
To be clear, when I relished the demise of the Nets, I specifically meant the Kevin Durant/Kyrie Irving Nets. That was a loathsome team. Without them, the Nets go back to being a team I couldn’t care less about. Have as much success as you can now that those smug assholes are out of town.
One other thing about the Nets: they received an unprotected 2029 pick from Dallas. I know it’s a long way off, but that’s going to be a huge asset.
Josh Hart’s literal career season was last season. This season he’s lowered his usage, but it’s a stretch to say he’s “declined.” His FG% at the rim is a career high. His 3PT% has obviously fallen off and we’ll see what happens with that going forward, but it’s bizarre to view that as a “decline” as opposed to normal 3PT variance.
I am sure E will take into account these nuances and adapt his opinion accordingly.
So we should completely discounts the value of acquiring a player to help with this year’s stretch run at a better. playoff seeding when evaluating a trade, and treat the guy as a rental even though there is considerable evidence to suggest that he will be retained beyond this year.
I get that how well we do this year means nothing to some posters. But a) it means a lot to others and b) it means a lot to Dolan, Leon and Thibs.
I think TNFH laid out very fair and realistic parameters for evaluating this trade. I respect that E is judging it largely within those parameters…he doesn’t like the player, which is fair.
But harping on the move outside of the context of a win-now/hybrid strategy is tedious.
“Josh Hart’s literal career season was last season.”
Not even close, but it’s become a boring discussion and I’m moving on … well, in retrospect, I’ll say one more thing and that’s that the fact that he’s now literally turning down open shots is a massive red flag to add on to the clearly declining numbers since his peak of 2-3 years ago.
He’s on the team now and we’ll all get to see him up close and personal and we’ll see how it goes. I’m not as all optimistic — I’d never bet anything on that risk/reward profile — but the comments are all in the archives for anyone to slap the L on me if it ever comes to that.
Once they shake loose, any interest in kicking the tire on any of these guys for one of our open roster spots? Would be funny if, after several years of rumors that the Knicks were going to trade for Ross, we pick him up off the street. Can he even still shoot?
RE: Buyout market
Usually I’d be interested in a few of those guys, but this season- not so much. Hartenstein, Obi, and Fournier are still here- so there’s no need in even looking in the direction of Ibaka, Ross, Barton, or Green.
Also..as weird as this sounds- I kinda anticipated an Obi move and was looking forward to signing Melo to replace his minutes and platooning he and Sims behind Randle depending on the match up. I thought that would be the one way bringing Melo back for his swan season could work
A few interesting names but I’d rather not.
We already have playing time allocation issues, not only with J-Hart’s acquisition but with Mitch’s return, when we’ll probably need to choose who to bench between I-Hart and Sims (both decent rotation players).
Thibs’ not the right coach for bench depth.
(Fournier and D-Rose are still on the roster!)
I think I have come around on the Hart signing with some of this commentary. Looking at his numbers, it’s more than reasonable. And I know I will love the way he plays, whcih is worth something.
I agree about the nets. For a flawed asset Simmons still has life in hi. Averaging almost a triple double per 36 with good defense.
RJ and Fournier for Simmons?
josh hart isn’t in any sort of decline…. in fact he just started earning starting minutes when he landed in portland and a key cog for that team… and while last year was sort of weird for him.. if you take it altogether he’s clearly been a different player than he was anywhere else….
i’ve probably watched more games specifically to watch only josh hart than anyone that’s not his mom over his career…. he’s more than fine skillwise and should have at least few years around this skill level… but for a guy who’s sort of teeters between below average to around average it really doesn’t take much for them to deteroriate all of a sudden or get into a situation that doesn’t match his skills….
like say for example where he gets into a situation where we run at one of the slowest paces in the league while hart thrives in transition…. or maybe they don’t give him the ball to create opps as much… ala our other hart….
it’s a good thing it’s 3 months so we can figure out if that’s going to be a good fit… but we just gave up a first for that privilege so *shrug*….
I haven’t seen enough Nets’ games (and when I did Simmons was… not impressive) but Lowe and Windhorst called Simmons’ contract “one of the 3 worst contracts in the league”, so I’ll wait a little bit longer…
I like Dedmon as a 4/5 who can shoot and defend, but I doubt any of those buyout guys would come here knowing that they are not going to play much or get a ring.
I’d rather get some young players who are standing out in G-league onto the roster so the Knicks can see them in practice and evaluate them up close than pick one of the names on the list Alan posted. Even if we just promote Jeffries it would send a message that if you play well for the Westchester Knicks, it can work out well for you.
It’s reasonable to consider this a demerit of the trade. Derrick Rose, for instance, would have been better off as merely a rental.
I foresee a similar path for Hart. I think his impact this year will be strong and he will bring us a lot of joy, just like Rose did. And then I think we’ll greatly regret the contract we reward him with.
The kicker, though, is the likelihood that someone we could have drafted with our pick will outperform Hart over the next 4 years at a fraction of the cost.
In his heart, I know Noble knows this. Obviously, now that he is a big shot lawyer, he also knows he must practice the art of defending a position he doesn’t believe in.
The only guy I would even consider is this corpse of Danny Green.
The odds that whoever a random GM would have drafted at where we are likely to draft will outperform Josh Hart at any time in the next 3 years are quite low.
“In his heart, I know Noble knows this. Obviously, now that he is a big shot lawyer, he also knows he must practice the art of defending a position he doesn’t believe in.”
He added to the discussion nicely with the idea of adding the delta in ability to attract a star to the calculus — that’s a nice and fair way to accept the premises of the Knicks’ “strategy — but unfortunately that’s outweighed by the things you then would have to back out to keep it consistent — (1) the odds of the 17th pick itself garnering a star; and (2) the odds of the player picked with the 17th pick, assuming he isn’t a star, still having a positive ability to attract a star.
In Josh Hart’s case, even using this well-founded model, it’s a negative balance.
Until tonight’s game I will live in a fantasy world where the politics of playing time made it difficult to cut into RJ’s minutes, and that the Hart trade was to provide a brand-new way to put RJ on the bench for considerable time.
Later tonight I will wake up to reality.
Simmons scoring has really collapsed. Didn’t realize how far. Obviously, he’s not worth 40 million. But I think if you fast forward a year we might find Simmons averaging 13 per 36 and looking somewhere between cromulent and toothsome. If he is the defender he was I don’t seen how he can’t go out there and provide some real value.
For anyone who wants to go into the Linsanity Wayback machine, here is a fun clip of the Lakers game. One of Breen’s best BANG’s ever and also, I love Carmelo’s coat.
I can remember exactly where I was for this game, not something I can say about many other games in the last 20 years.
@Raven That is a reasonable take.
If the CEO wants to make the playoffs, what’s Leon going to do?
I agree with you on the Nets. They may have eliminated their chance at a title this year, but they restocked with picks and brought in some very good players they can either move forward with in their rebuild, trade for a need, or trade for even more picks. They’ll probably do a little of everything in the off-season. They might slip a little in the standings this year, but they still have a good team and a path to get much better.
Again, considering the move in a way that ignores the very clear mandate to win as many games as possible right now is pointless.
Whatever marginal value gained or lost beyond this season is certainly fair to discuss. A Derrick Rose- level outcome would be disappointing, although I would argue that the net result of acquiring Rose has been positive in terms of the perception of the franchise in a marketing/public relations sense.
It’s a calculated risk, just like holding on to the pick and drafting a player is a risk. Hart seems to me to be the better risk in terms of the next 3 years, especially in light of what he brings right now in the midst of a legit playoff seeding battle. I wouldn’t call it a no-brainer but am comfortable calling it a risk worth taking, given the non-negotiables involved.
“Regarding the last monster thread’s talk about Josh Hart — when did we start assuming 27 year olds were certain to decline over the next few years?”
I think that idea may have come from some studies done by Wages Of Wins author, David Berri.
I think many players take better care of themselves these due to more knowledge about diet and exercise. They don’t play as many minutes. And the model he used probably overweighted some of the things that decline first while underweighting things that keep improving. So whatever his graph looked like, I’d personally tack a few years onto that.
“Not even close, but it’s become a boring discussion and I’m moving on”
Wait, you’re disputing that last season was Hart’s career season? If it wasn’t, what was?
He averaged career highs in PTS/36, AST/36, TS%, and BPM. I had no idea I was making anything resembling a controversial statement. It’s clear as day after a 10 second look at his basketball reference page.
“In his heart, I know Noble knows this. Obviously, now that he is a big shot lawyer, he also knows he must practice the art of defending a position he doesn’t believe in.”
Getting accused of being a reflexive front office defender is definitely a first.
I assure you, I genuinely believe Josh Hart is worth a lottery-protected first for a team that is committed to trying to win as many games as possible while maintaining enough assets to trade for a star that puts us on his “list.”
“but unfortunately that’s outweighed by the things you then would have to back out to keep it consistent — (1) the odds of the 17th pick itself garnering a star; and (2) the odds of the player picked with the 17th pick, assuming he isn’t a star, still having a positive ability to attract a star.”
Right now we stand to make the 19th pick. There haven’t been sufficiently rigorous studies on this for a while, but I am nearly certain the expected ROI on the 19th pick is lower than Josh Hart, and especially so within the next 3-4 seasons.
That doesn’t justify the trade on its own because the upside on the pick is higher than Josh Hart, but again, this just speaks to the larger strategy. We’re trying to maximize wins without losing the ability to trade for a star. Josh Hart is more likely to help us do that than the 19th pick.
Trading the 19th pick with lots of good players on the board for a future pick that may well become two seconds is a very different story and doesn’t help any team accomplish anything.
One thing we can hope is that Hart takes at least some of RJ’s minutes. RJ sometimes leads the team in minutes because Thibs uses him with the 2nd unit also. I’d like to see RJ with the 2nd unit more if we need the scoring and less with the starters for a net of less minutes overall. He’ll probably be more efficient against backups anyway. Also, if he’s ultimately going to be trade chip for an upgrade, the better he looks the better for us. And we can still hope he actually gets better.
@Hubert…thanks for the backstory…i figured I stumbled into something else but it got me thinking…i paid like 250 bucks to see iron maiden a few months back and was good with that…the black crowes came through and wanted like 500 or 750 and i faded on it….glad you got to see them…after all those years…and agree with the analogy…
I hope some stats guy does a recalculation of the odds of getting franchise players, all stars, starters, rotation players, duds etc.. from different lottery positions and draft positions. Between the new lottery system and the lower age of players drafted there must be some changes. I assume teams have that data, but I haven’t seen an updated one for the public in awhile.
Also, worrying about Hart’s next contract seems to come from a place of misunderstanding our cap situation. Long story short, we’re almost certainly operating over the cap for the foreseeable future.
We could make a series of drastic moves to change this like not making various draft picks, not extending Quickley and Obi, etc. but that all seems…unwise. Josh Hart isn’t going to stop us from going big game hunting in free agency because we’re not going big game hunting in free agency in the first place.
That doesn’t mean we’re free to handout bad contracts willy nilly, but analogizing this situation to Derrick Rose’s misses the mark for me. We gave Derrick Rose a multiyear deal when he was 33 with the injury history of Derrick Rose.
We’ll be negotiating with a 28 year-old Josh Hart. The chances that his next contract becomes similarly valueless seem quite small to me.
I will remind everyone that contenders were fully willing to trade for Hart and everything that came with his contractual situation (Heat and Cavs according to Scotto). You have to buy very strongly into E’s imminent decline theory to think he’s an inevitable albatross.
I’m not a big fan of looking at a single season of data and assuming anything about progress (up or down) unless it’s a very young player moving forward or very old player moving backward. Injuries, system, role, variance in 3p%, teammates, coaching, personal problems etc.. can all impact the data for a year. For example, I was confident Randle was going to bounce back (though he did even exceed my expectations). There’s nothing in Hart’s record that makes me think he peaked and is on his way down. IMO it’s all just noise.
I’m guessing derrick rose just did not feel like moving himself or his family…
I’ve seen his son warming up with him before games…
good for him…
like everyone else – I’m thinking the best outcome of the josh hart trade is the chance to limit the damage RJ seems to be doing to the team…
at this point, less minutes for RJ is worth a 1st round pick, that we didn’t want to use anyway…
Guys, don’t complain that E is against whatever the Knicks are doing, because that’s what i use as a barometer for the end of the world. 😀
Unless we are talking about a case involving discrimination in public school admissions, TNFH would never take me on as a client.
As a west-coaster and as the resident Lillard fan here, I’ve watched a lot of Blazers games. Hart is one of those guys you don’t really notice is even out there. He rarely even tries to score. He’s kind of the Rodman of guards in that sense. But that’s because it’s what Billups is asking of him. Lillard is the rare player who can get a shot off by himself on every single possession of the game if he wants to. A guy that rebounds and defends and doesn’t turn the ball over when he touches it is the perfect player to soak up minutes with. Which makes it weird that they’d trade him, but Thybulle is just going to do the same short+sane Rodman stuff now I guess.
Hart is good. And non-scorer-geeks and microfans will especially like having him around.
I imagine this is just a short-term thing with Keels (who still has a long long way to go) until we fill one or both remaining roster spots. But since we haven’t brought Jeffries up at all before now, I wouldn’t be surprised to see him stay and practice with the big club for the rest of the season.
this may be true in a vacuum from a raw production standpoint that you have more certainty with players like josh hart… but this is not true when you factor in costs and this has been known for awhile…
we all know this to be true which is why draft picks are desirable which is why we were ecstatic to begin with to get draft picks in all these trades…. that we’re now excited to willingly give this up for the sake of paying market rate for average players is some sort of new phenomena brought about by our wild successes at the 7th seed…
the reason you get guys like hart is for more certainty in production… that also does not mean that there’s no risk… in fact these types of vets bring about a lot more risk than anyone realizes.. just look at the lakers or our very own team when we thought we made it an offseason ago…. there’s a lot of variance with both situations .. you just get slightly less with veterans of which you get the privilege to pay market rate..
and maybe we all think at this point value doesn’t matter…. it’s true that teams contending for titles value matters not so much… you see this with what golden state is doing and where they are in the tax and the wiseman/gpII deals… but are we at that point where value completely doesn’t matter? i don’t think so.. and that’s the problem with deals like this…
I really don’t get the (admittedly minority) concern that Hart is a rental risk. If there is one thing Leon has demonstrated that he is good at is signing players he wants (the trades to free up Brunson space before signing Brunson, letting in the possibility of Mitch fleeing), though perhaps a bit of tampering is his secret. We have Hart on our roster and can outpay anyone else to keep him, and the likelihood that he hates it here so much that he bolts for less money is mitigated by Brunson. Now whether he is worth the pick and whatever we could have gotten for Cam is another matter, but I look at the trade exclusively as we got Hart as well as the right to sign him longer term.
You’ve been wrong about how well a player selected with our pick is likely to perform 4 years in a row. But maybe this will be your year.
Don’t forget the odds that without Josh Hart that pick is a lot higher than 17th. The teams that lose the play in game have a 7.1 to 9.4% chance of being top 4.
Djphan, that 538 study uses win shares which I think are borderline useless at this point, but in any event it indicates the expected ROI on the 19th pick is 10 win shares in the first 5 seasons.
Hart has played 5 seasons and is at 19.5 and counting.
I get that your point is that the 19th pick still has a better expected ROI in terms of value against the salary cap, but 1) seems like we should at least wait to see Hart’s next contract before we say this confidently 2) the Knicks are operating as an over the cap team and 3) again, the Knicks’ chosen, pot committed strategy is to maximize their wins as opposed to maximizing their assets.
2 picks?? Where did you read this?
Some light on why OG wasn’t traded.
And the details on the 2nd rounders, in case the Knicks miss the playoffs.
If Thibs is smart, he’ll go back to a 10 man rotation with Hart until the playoffs to continue to get Deuce some game experience. Then he can make Deuce situational in the playoffs and go back to a 9 man rotation. I’m sure it’ll be a little difficult at first because Hart has to take a few of Deuce’s minutes..but it shouldn’t hurt that bad because he will cut into RJ’s minutes as is- unless RJ’s having a good game. Or maybe I’m biased because I wanna see the Hart/Quickley/Deuce trio together on defense lol
You’re twisting reality, TNFH. This is what happens when you try to think like Z-Man. You run into walls and you have to make things up for your position to make sense. Never go full retard.
We are capped out for one year: next year. We only have $92mm committed to the 2024-25 season, a year in which the cap could be around $150MM.
And in what would be the 3rd year of Hart’s contract, the new TV contract kicks in. I’m not going to want Josh Hart on the books for $24mm in his age 30 season when maybe the best opportunity to land a star in our lifetime comes around, and neither are you.
But since you are going full Z-Man, I guess you’re thinking that when 2025 comes around you can just make believe you never said any of this.
Hubert telling me I’ve been wrong while his man crush Keon Johnson couldn’t get you a top-55 protected second and the great Bones Hyland couldn’t get you more in a trade than the worst possible outcome of the CHA protected pick, meaning that it was worse than an incineration by his own stupid standards….doesn’t get any better than that!
I’m not sure why that merited a real-life naming but as I literally said in the comment you’re quoting, it’s only true that we have serious space in 2024 if you assume no money for Quickley, Obi, and no draft picks between now and then.
In that scenario, we have Randle, Brunson, Barrett, Mitch, Grimes, and Sims on the books for ~104M. That’s all very implausible and still leaves us short of even a 7-9 year max in most projected cap scenarios. It sure seems like the plan is instead to operate over the cap.
You’re twisting reality, Teddy. This is what happens when you try to think like Z-Man.
Hubert, I have no interest in defending Z-man and also want to say this in a constructive way, but this is not the first time where you go out of your way to diss him in a debate that he has no part in. Lowers the tone of the board, or at the very least invites lowering the quality of discussion. Enough said.
winshares over multiple seasons and in broad terms like this is not that useless… but regardless there have been similar analysis using other different metrics and they all come to the same conclusion….. draft picks are worth a lot and inherently have a lot of value due to the cost controlled nature of their contract… this is true not only in the nba either… this is true in other sports also… as they all have similar situations with rookie scale or rookie slotted contracts that are purposefully formulated to be below veteran market rate…
we’ve had this discussion before so this isn’t some new revelation… this should be accepted fact at this point….
and again… maybe you think value doesn’t matter when you reach 40 some odd wins but value absolutely does matter when trying to formulate deals for star players… if you actually have good players it makes your offer that much more enticing…. dead contracts are seen as needing compensation for….
making as many good decisions as possible is the name of the game…. because when it does come time to deal for a star you would want to be in a position to actually obtain that star and also do well when that star comes…. that’s how the suns got durant… that’s how the nets even got their big 3 to begin with…. that’s how the cavs got mitchell… how much better of a position would we be in if we got hali over obi? or not even hali how about vassell? what if we never signed fournier and that was any number of useful player?
but making good decisions also helps you succeed in the event that your strategy to obtain a star fails…. a good decision within the next context of a bad strategy does not make it a good decision…. it just makes it a coherent strategy….
It’s nice to live rent-free in Hubert’s head to the degree that he is evoking my name to insult any poster with the temerity to disagree with him. Better get some bloodwork done, dude, your meds ain’t working…
My apologies, Noble. I thought we’ve used real life names before. My bad. Can a moderator scratch that, please?
my tone must be coming across all wrong because I’m actually in a playful mood today, but I will heed your advice and take a break.
It’s probably the second cappuccino I had this morning. It often brings delusions of grandeur.
BE, I appreciate you weighing in. Of course I’ll get blamed but whatever.
“If Thibs is smart, he’ll go back to a 10 man rotation with Hart until the playoffs to continue to get Deuce some game experience. Then he can make Deuce situational in the playoffs and go back to a 9 man rotation.”
This is where communication skills, which I think is a weakness of Thibs are crucial. A good leader would sit down with Deuce, RJ, and whoever else may lose minutes and explain why and what they can do to improve their chances of getting more minutes in the future. I’m hoping Bryant can step in and fill that role or we’re bound to create another Cam situation.
I’m inclined to like Josh Hart, but I do not like anyone but Starks wearing #3.
Oh man, i guess i’m super old, because i’ve heard this a number of times now.
pretty ironic that the dude who invokes rent free living brings up the incineration to go at people quite often for some strange reason….
Is Hart actually going to be ready to play tonight?
Anywho, some good reads on The Athletic today.
Katz lists 10 reverberations of the Hart trade: https://theathletic.com/4177722/2023/02/10/knicks-nba-trade-deadline-josh-hart/
I hadn’t thought of how this may lead to more IQ minutes at point guard, so that’ll be an interesting one to watch. Looking forward to Hart and Obi in transition. Very entertaining that we might duck the luxury tax by $284.
Sam Vecenie loves the deal for the Knicks: https://theathletic.com/4174706/2023/02/10/josh-hart-trade-analysis-knicks-blazers/
Includes a nice breakdown of Hart’s game on both ends. Really likes the added lineup flexibility he gives us. Thinks the first we gave up was of middling value, all things considered. Hates everything about it for Portland.
Hey djphan, I haven’t bothered to respond to any of your posts (believe me, showing restraint isn’t easy considering how I generally feel about them.) so kindly avoid the peanut gallery bullshit. Thank you.
I will not claim this is anything resembling a rigorous indicia of smart front officing, but I will just say that people like Sam Vecenie have not praised other moves the Knicks have made in the past.
Maybe Sam Vecenie is on Z-man’s payroll too…
FWIW, Sam Vecenie called the Hart trade — from a Knicks’ perspective, at least — “one of my favorite moves any team made this week.” More here:
if you can’t keep your cool by constantly trying to instigate people because you have such a thin skin about things… that’s not my fault… that’s you… it’s always been you.. .you have the most problems with people on this board who haven’t been banned… why is that?
even in this instance you’re looking for a fight on the incineration and then you cry some victimhood like you always do… it’s exhausting the game you pull and nobody holds you accountable for some reason…
we haven’t gotten a mitch injury update yet have we?
On the subject of role players, I’ve noticed that fans of a team often complain the price is too high when their team trades for them. Consider Derrick Rose. When we traded for him there were a lot of complaints about the price. But in retrospect, it was a good price. I actually trust our management to be good judges of trade value. That doesn’t mean they always judge a player’s use well, and Hart may not be that big a help in our playoff push, but I doubt we overpaid.
Star players are different. Sometimes fans are so eager to get such a player, they look past the price. Consider Gobert and Westbrook as examples.
RE overpaying to see a band….back probably 12 years ago or so I considered going to see the Pixies in Nashville. I’d been a big fan since Doolittle was released in ’89, but never had a chance to see them live.
However, the tickets were several hundred bucks each, so I passed even though we could afford it. To each his own, though.
I prefer more intimate club shows, anyways. Since then, I’ve seen other “bucket list” shows like seeing Mission of Burma in Atlanta in 2013 and, just a few years ago, Hot Snakes with my wife and youngest son in Lexington. Both at clubs for much less money, and got to chat with Peter Prescott of MoB for a few minutes after that show. Priceless.
The Nets saga has been so weird because almost all of their moves were good. That team was devastating on offense in the tiny number of games Harden, KD and Kyrie were together. That team was still a legit contender when Kyrie & KD were together, even as recently as this season.
Their one indefensibly stupid move was limiting and then trading Jared Allen. And even then they managed to get a good replacement for him eventually.
And yet despite making a bunch of good decisions they got absolutely nothing. One playoff series win.
On the subject of role players, I’ve noticed that fans of a team often complain the price is too high when their team trades for them.
Agree. There seems to be a general trend where fans (not just on this blog) really fetishize draft picks. Like they should 100 percent of the time only be used to draft a player or to trade for a supestar or final piece to put you over the top. And fans freak out when a draft pick, even a late first rounder, is used to get a role player.
I kind of understand it for Knicks fans though. In the last 20 years we went through a long period of not valuing first round picks at all. We used them to clear bad salaries in order to have cap space in 2010. We used them to get Melo and then used the last one we had for awhile on freaking Bargnani! So I get it. But Leon has been good about getting us back picks that he sends out. The net is that we still have a surplus of picks. I love the excitement and possibility of drafting a young player but that new car shine wears off after a few seasons and oftentimes you’re left with a player who isn’t that good.
And yeah I think people are really dismissing what Hart can do for us RIGHT NOW. Making the playoffs, possibly winning a series…those things are important to the players, the coaches, the organization and to a vast majority of the fans.
And not to get all old man get off my lawn about it. But there’s a whole generation of fans now who focus solely on asset accumulation, draft status, advanced stats, win curve, etc. And completely ignore stuff like how can we address a specific weakness of this team to get a little better right now. How will X player fit in to this current group of guys, what role can this player play for us that we need, etc. IE, TEAM BUILDING. That other stuff is important and good teams incorporate it into their thinking, but you can’t ignore the old school stuff too.
About tonight, and although i agree with Z-Man that we’ll have a hard time winning this one because Philly probably wants revenge, we are in need of a win because Atlanta is closing in (only 2 games behind) and Miami hosts the Rockets (99% it’s a W). Add to that the Nets winning the first game to defend the 5th, probably boosting their confidence.
Hart may have been an overpay, but given that Hartesque guys were getting swapped for 5 2nd round picks all over yesterday it’s at worst a moderate overpay. Rui Hachimura, a significantly worse player (though one with more upside) went for Kendrick Nunn & 3 2nds. Poeltl-probably a slightly better player -cost a less protected 1st and 2 2nds.
Most of Vecenie’s analysis is premised on Hart being a Thibs type guy which to me is an actual negative. He also alludes to Hart’s troubles making decisions in the mid-range, which is exactly what you’d expect from a guy who’s realizing he can’t shoot and make the shots he used to shoot.
Aaaannnnd … more of his offense comes from transition than any other rotation player in the league and the Knicks play at a very slow pace, so there’s that.
So basically he can’t make an open three, doesn’t shoot a bunch of open threes and does a good job hitting a good percentage of the tiny number of transition 2s he gets that he won’t get as many of with the Knicks.
Here’s a risque proposal: Hows about we just build a team that can beat the other teams through better tangibles?
“And not to get all old man get off my lawn about it. But there’s a whole generation of fans now who focus solely on asset accumulation, draft status, advanced stats, win curve, etc. And completely ignore stuff like how can we address a specific weakness of this team to get a little better right now. How will X player fit in to this current group of guys, what role can this player play for us that we need, etc. IE, TEAM BUILDING.”
Old news, Swifty, but the reason for that is that the marginal wins generated by doing a good job in addressing specific weaknesses are counterproductive to building a contender or a champion. They aren’t if you already have the contention/championship infrastructure in place — for those teams it can be critical to separate themselves from their contention/contender peer group — but the Knicks aren’t in that group (or really even close). The Knicks are in the “marginal wins bad” group.
So what you do if you’re in that group and you’re smart is that you get yourself out of that group. That’s the “asset accumulation, win curve, advanced stats, draft status, managing a path to true contention” place.
djphan, clearly we have zero respect for each other, both on a personal and on a posting level. Why you would stick your nose in someone else’s beef when you are incapable of being impartial is beyond me. For my part, I will be happy to continue passing over the mostly mindless drivel (imo of course, opinions vary!) you post here without responding. I will again ask that you do the same.
“we haven’t gotten a mitch injury update yet have we?”
Thibs weighed in yesterday…said he’s still not cleared for contact but doing stuff on the court…sounds like he’s close.
Here’s a risque proposal: Hows about we just build a team that can beat the other teams through better tangibles?
That’s why we’ve got a winning record. Playing guys with upside intangibles like Cam would not help. Hart is a pretty decent NBA player because he does tangible shit like make shots and get lots of rebounds.
Well said, DRed…
we haven’t gotten a mitch injury update yet have we?”
Unfortunately can see this same post cropping up multiple times in the next few years.
Here’s the quote from the NYP re: Mitch:
“Injured center Mitchell Robinson is progressing in his rehab from a fractured right thumb, but he has still yet to be cleared for contact, Thibodeau said. Robinson can use his right hand in certain situations.
“He’s doing a lot on the court right now. No contact,” Thibodeau said. “So the next step will be when he gets cleared and hopefully that will be soon.””
On the flip side, Zach Lowe and Kevin Pelton were less enthusiastic about the trade on Zach’s pod today. They like Hart a lot as a player but don’t feel he fills enough of a need for us. Though as Pelton noted, our bench has been carried almost entirely by IQ, whose play Zach described as “awesome.” Zach also wondered if Hart might be insurance against losing IQ or Obi in the summer, even as he acknowledged they don’t play the same role as he will. Whereas some of us here see Hart more as a player who would make it easier for the FO to trade RJ in the offseason. Doesn’t feel like the national media has yet caught up to the idea that RJ hasn’t been that great, which might be helpful if Leon really does want to move him in the summer.
I find the positive Nets takes to be interesting. They are almost in a very similar position as we are yet with less picks because they don’t have their own. Their roster is also less good because they do not have an all star level player. They do indeed have lots of good players. And a few of them are young. But unless they plan on trading Bridges, DFS, Johnson. How do the Nets get from fringe playoff team to contender faster than the Knicks as some have mentioned?
Hart does some things that we need. The rebounding and switchable defense will be nice. E does make a good point about Hart and transition offense though– Hart, like Obi, won’t get a chance to do that much here. We already have some low-usage guys like Hart in the rotation, so it doesn’t seem like he’s going to make much of an impact on that end. He’s here for his defense, and I do think he’ll help there.
Overall it’s too hard to get too up or down about this team, as it seems we’re going to be coasting along at this 5-7 seed, 11-14 SRS ranking clip for a while. There’s really nobody here who is a good bet to make a huge leap in production, so we are what we are at this point.
For those of you guys who have been saying “I just want to watch a competent, decent team” we’re pretty much here. We’ll need something dramatic like a superstar trade to get much above this level. I enjoy watching the team but I can’t say I’m super excited about the future. Here’s to at least a few seasons of not-embarrassing basketball. It’s at least something different.
It would be great if Hart can recover his 3 point shot, obviously. But he does fill some holes for us right now even if he doesn’t. Randle is our only good defensive rebounder. Hart is a great defensive rebounder for a guard. He’s also a good playmaker for a 2 guard. Our bench especially needs playmaking and rebounding.
“Most of Vecenie’s analysis is premised on Hart being a Thibs type guy which to me is an actual negative.”
If your goal is to disempower Thibs as much as possible so that the team loses games and it is easier to fire him, sure, that’s a valid assertion.
What’s interesting is that while we have a pretty eclectic group of players, they seem to be a unified group and the “culture-building” angle seems to be in evidence by the way they fight tooth and nail for every game. Obviously no one can really know this from the outside, but judging by Brunson’s reaction, it seems like not disrupting that culture while taking a step to upgrade the roster is a logical move if you actually want Thibs to be successful.
Which is really what this comes down to. Leon is obviously 100% committed to this “team of rivals hybrid” approach and 100% committed to Thibs being the best guy to maximize that strategy. Is it working? That’s a fair question. But this move is obviously consistent with that strategy and if Vecenie thinks it tactically sound, that should at least signal the doubters of the tactic on its merits to take a closer look.
you have so many problems with so many people… i comment on a fraction of those given the shared experience that i have with them…. especially when you go into threads looking for a fight and when someone gives you one you demure the victim….
if you can’t keep your cool in any discussion.. that’s again on you…. when people call you out on your bullshit and you can’t keep your cool… that’s again on you… so whatever parameters you need in order to act like an adult aren’t met.. it’s not anyone’s fault than your own when you can’t meet that low bar that actual children can meet….
so no i never agreed to do you any favors.. i have no problem acting civil and having disagreements with people on any number of heated topics… that you consistently can’t has nothing to do with what i’m doing in relation to you….
maybe instead of avoiding things you should look at why you’re so sensitive over stupid shit….
watched that Poker Face epdisode last night with the heavy metal band story…that was classic..
I foresee a continuous see-saw between 11 and 19 which we never escape because we keep getting poor returns for our picks.
the transition thing with Hart is an actual thing… it’s why his usage is so low.. you’ll also notice that he doesn’t really navigate pick and rolls all that often so as a secondary handler he’s not all that great despite the assist numbers….
he has done better… before he exclusively relied on transition in the fast pace offenses in LA and NO… POR played a lot slower but Hart found his spots in mid transition opportunities and the aforementioned half court sets…. he’s going to look very awkward a lot of times and you’re going to get shades of RJ on some of his takes but he plays within himself very well….
the 3s i’m less optimistic about … 34% is not terrible but i’m not sure if it’ll get consistently above beyond a variance spike…. he shoots ft’s not so well and he’s almost entirely removed pullups from his repertoire and he’s still mediocre….
he is who he is… i think there’s some downside risk if the slower pace removes the already infrequent opps he finds…. there’s some upside if he can find more usage in certain spots.. like if he gets better in the pnr… he’s not clearly an above average player so it’s possible for him to be bounce between slightly below to slightly above average for the rest of his career… that’s kind of what he’s been up to this point too….
That sounds pretty reasonable. I think any upside for Hart is basically tied to his 3point shot. When he was taking a lot of 3s for Portland last year it was by far his best offensive stretch in the pros
djphan should be excused for his posting today because obviously he hasn’t gotten over his trauma from a couple of years ago and will use any opportunity to bash Z-man no matter who is at fault. Seems like I have another rent-free residence I have no interest in residing or even visiting…yet no matter how much I try to stay away, it’s like Hotel California…
I have to keep the game thread to a sentence, so let me trash Doc some more here. That dude is the most checked out head coach I’ve seen since, well, just last season with Dead Vogel Walking, but it’s still a disgrace for how much talent the Sixers have that they seem to have no game plan and no heart.
It’s not so much that I want Thibs disempowered — I mean, I do, but that’s not the primary motivation — but more so that a player being one that “Thibs will love” isn’t an independent factor to weigh in judging a trade. If throwing that into the mix is insisted upon, it’s a negative, not a positive factor.
how is it a rent free existence when folks like bruno or ntilikilla or hubert any number of posters that you’ve bullied over the years to tell you to quit it also? that’s not living rent free.. it’s fucking telling you that you have a maturity problem that’s causing an issue… TODAY
it’s no one else’s problem other than your own… and if you want to talk about rent free.. i freaking coined the Incineration yet i don’t even talk about it a fraction as often as you do….
Brian – totally agree on Doc. My Sixers buddy seems not to care. Says at least 50% of fan base still like doc.
DRed, what’s different about Hart and Obi is that Hart actually grabs rebounds and initiates transition himself, while Obi is a poor rebounder and defender and is often either trapped under the basket or alternatively, running out for a transition opportunity, while others get the rebounds. It would seem that hearts perimeter, defense and strong rebounding, along with deuce, IQ, OB, and iHart might make for a nice change of pace second unit.
“DRed, what’s different about Hart and Obi is that Hart actually grabs rebounds and initiates transition himself, while Obi is a poor rebounder”
Defensive rebounds per 36, 2022-23:
Josh Hart — 6.8
Obi Toppin — 6.7
Basketball Reference is a mere mouse click away …. I’ve found it to be a real nice anti-bullshit tool.
Josh Hart — 6.8
Obi Toppin — 6.7
LOL, one is a power forward and the other a guard/wing.
Are you serious with this shit?
Hart is one of the best rebounding guards/SF in the league.
Swifty did you see anything in Z-man’s bullshit that talked about positions?
I didn’t either.
No, what happened instead is that people were talking about transition and Hart and making some intelligent points and observations and someone mentioned Obi as a transition comp for Hart, and then Z-man swooped in with some bullshit “difference” between Hart and Obi based on nothing more than his blinkered powers of observation that in fact isn’t a difference at all.
No, what happened instead is that people were talking about transition and Hart and making some intelligent points and observations and someone mentioned Obi as a transition comp for Hart, and then Z-man swooped in with some bullshit “difference” between Hart and Obi that isn’t a “difference” at all.
Except it’s a huge difference. One is a power forward and therefore, his rebounding numbers are pretty bad for his position. The other is a guard and therefore his rebounding numbers are pretty good for his position.
He shouldn’t have to spell it out for you. It’s fucking obvious.
“how is it a rent free existence when folks like bruno or ntilikilla or hubert any number of posters that you’ve bullied over the years to tell you to quit it also?”
Hubert and Ntilikilla being bullied? Please.
Bruno and I haven’t had a problem in over two years, and I admitted that I was wrong about the “mediocre” bit. But before that, he was just as culpable in our back-and-forth regarding Frank.
But you’re so transparent. This isn’t about them at all. It’s about you still being injured by things that happened between us long ago. Just own it, get therapy, and move on. I doubt that anyone wants to hear it.
Let’s see…who should I throw my lot in with regarding Hart’s rebounding, E or Sam Vecenie? Heres what the latter had to say:
“Per DunksAndThrees.com, among players who have seen a majority of their minutes at small forward this season, Hart ranks only behind Jarred Vanderbilt and Jayson Tatum in terms of defensive rebounding rate and ranks sixth behind Vanderbilt, Scottie Barnes, Torrey Craig, Justise Winslow and Jimmy Butler in offensive rebounding rate.
All of the other guys listed tend to play some fairly sizable minutes at the four. Hart is a pure perimeter player, crashing in relentlessly at 6-foot-5 and getting his hands on the ball. As Thibodeau noted, his anticipation and understanding of how the ball comes off the rim is superb. Moreover, he’s an expert at not allowing players to get a body on him.”
I think I’ll go with Sam.
Like its fine if you hate Thibs and Hart and Grimes or whoever else you think is a Thibs player. But like you don’t need to be obtuse about the things that are good about Hart. You can just be honest and say you don’t like him bc you hate players that play hard and hustle and you hate a coach that things intangibles like that are important.
“Let’s see…who should I throw my lot in with regarding Hart’s rebounding, E or Sam Vecenie? ”
You didn’t just talk about Hart’s rebounding in a vacuum, you buffoon — you made a silly bullshit comparison of Hart and Toppin, replete with the preposterous thing about Obi cherry-picking instead of rebounding when the two players get the same number of defensive rebounds.
If the claim is “Josh Hart is an excellent rebounder for a 2/3,” no one’s arguing. But people do (sometimes) argue with bullshit.
Ok, time to inject some positivity into this thread.
Makes me like this team even more
Josh Hart is in the *99th percentile* among wings when it comes to defensive rebounding.
What the hell are we even talking about anymore?
“What the hell are we even talking about anymore?”
Z-Man’s bullshit about Obi cherry picking.
Seriously, enough with the goalpost moving. No one was disputing Josh Hart being an excellent rebounder for a wing.
What people *were* doing was mentioning Obi Toppin as being a potential canary in the coalmine for issues Josh Hart might have in getting as many opportunities in transition.
At that point, Z-Man stumbled in with some Grade A bullshit that doesn’t remotely address the issue at hand and he was spicily corrected.
(Even on the “merits,” it’s pure horseshit. If Obi Toppin is cherry-picking and *still* not getting many transition attempts, and Hart doesn’t cherry-pick, but instead scraps and fights, that makes the potential issue even *worse.*
before we go anointing Sam Vecenie as an appeal to authority on the hart deal he loved our 2021 bringing back the band offseason too along with most of TheAthletic..
Worth saying maybe that despite his personal rebounding stats the team effect from Hart’s rebounding appears relatively minor – this year in fact there’s no effect; opponent offensive rebound % is 24.2% when he’s on the floor and 24.3% when he’s off. Other years there’s been some impact but mostly a pretty small one. Obviously there’s a ton of noise in just raw on/off numbers like that but I’m a little skeptical you can really fix team rebounding issues from the guard position.
as much as you relish in how often other ppl think of you…. it’s just fucking tiring reading some new z-man conflict of the day as it tiring having to go through E’s trolling through the day…. i’m sure most ppl are in that same boat also..
E, maybe you’re getting confused…I only used the term cherry-picking in reference to the 19th pick. Obi runs out. That’s a fact. It’s also a good thing!
In fact, Obi has improved his defensive rebounding this year precisely at the expense of his running out for easy transition opportunities. He only has 26 dunks this year, which is less than half of his rate for last year. If he’s getting defensive rebounds, he isn’t running out. Since he’s guarding PFs, his rebounding is largely taking place under the basket.
And that’s the point….Hart frees him up to run out more and score more in those situations.
This should be pretty simple to understand. Vecenie gets it. Thibs gets it. Z-man gets it. E doesn’t get it.
The rebounds are meaningless if they’re just cannibalizing rebounds teammates would get anyway. I’m not remotely suggesting that’s the case with Hart, but before getting all giddy about it, I’d want at least some independent basis to show that he benefits his team’s rebounding beyond what it would otherwise be. He’s at such a high level that he probably does, to be sure — but I’d still want to see it.
A lot of second cappuccinos today.
it’s just fucking tiring reading some new z-man conflict of the day as it tiring having to go through E’s trolling through the day
Then don’t do it. Free country.
While I don’t love giving up a 1st for Hart I do like him as a player quite a bit. I think he will fit really nicely next to Obi and his rebounding will better allow Obi to be able to start leaking out again. Earlier this season when we were getting killed on the boards Obi stopped leaking out so he could help secure rebounds now he won’t have to.
Hart is really good at getting a rebound and pushing the pace and initiating fast breaks. His presence should up the pace of this team and hopefully, get our bench unit back to the running unit it was in seasons past.
My big worry is minutes. I don’t want Grimes, Obi, McBride, or Quickley to lose minutes. If he gets his minutes from RJ, Randle, Brunson (a little) and maybe the centers I will be happy though.
That isn’t close to what you wrote the first time, Z-Man, but now I got your point. Makes sense.
Still doesn’t get at the potential damage to Hart’s transition game from coming to the Knicks (and now having to rebound harder so Obi can leak out), but makes sense as far as it goes. No question.
per game Hart gets more contested rebounds than anyone coded by the nba website as a guard other than Luka, who he is tied with. Unfortunately they don’t filter by offensive or defensive rebounds.
“as much as you relish in how often other ppl think of you…. it’s just fucking tiring reading some new z-man conflict of the day as it tiring having to go through E’s trolling through the day…. i’m sure most ppl are in that same boat also..”
Hubert evokes my name out of the blue all the time, just like he did today. And went so far as to accuse two posters of being Z-man-like when they disagreed with his takes.
But you never seem to have a problem with him when he does that. Gee, I wonder why?
Clearly you are just looking for an in to vent about your own unresolved grievances. Or you’re channelling anger about something else and I’m a convenient target. Whatever, please seek help!
Please get help!
Tim Hardaway, Jr.
You really do have to go back to J.R. Smith to find a difference-maker at the 6’4″-6’6″ SG/SF slot on this team. And even then, it’s J.R. Smith.
Hey, E, Z–Man, djphan — how about we talk about basketball and leave the insults and derogatory personal slams alone for the rest of the day. Or even, you know, the rest of your lives. It’s FUCKING IRRITATING. And boring and childish, and embarrassing. Like watching old women fist-fighting over a cabbage at the grocery store.
Disagree with someone’s take, sure, but don’t make it personal like a difference of opinion is the same as fucking your sister and never calling her back.
* Hart generates fastbreaks by himself
* Obi will leak out more
* Individual rebounding won’t always increase team boards. There’s diminishing returns but allows other players to attack.
* Hart will be our best cutter for iHart
* Deuce is fine benched until he shows he can shoot
* Hart gives us depth at the 3 & 4
* Portland’s starting 5 include 4 other players who already take up 103% USG—Hart was likely capable of more
* Hart is on the same win curve as Brunson & Randle. A 1st won’t be.
* The plan is to trade for a 3rd star, this offseason if possible—Hart can fit whatever roster holes are created
I look forward to Clyde saying Knicks having a real Hart to Hart
“That isn’t close to what you wrote the first time, Z-Man, but now I got your point. Makes sense.
Still doesn’t get at the potential damage to Hart’s transition game from coming to the Knicks (and now having to rebound harder so Obi can leak out), but makes sense as far as it goes. No question.”
To be fair, I’m not saying that it’s a sure fire win, only that it makes sense in theory.
The kicker is whether there will be more misses to rebound, particularly long misses. Hart is a very good perimeter defender, and so is Deuce and IQ. iHart has improved his defensive rebounding at the rim of late. But defensive rebounding is not a thing if you don’t get stops. In theory, Hart’s defense will also lead to more stops than whoever he would be replacing in the 2nd unit (he’s a better defender than RJ) He also gets more steals which often lead to transition baskets (in contrast, RJ has a terrible steal rate.)
In the halfcourt offense, Hart is theoretically a more polished passer and slasher than RJ. That would be especially helpful with the bench unit because they move the ball better and more, including iHart.
Again it’s theoretical but it makes lots of sense.
Wiseman sucks and GS wants to win now. Last I checked he’s passed Bones for 0th percentile defender, significantly more worrying as a C.
That said, DET needs to see what they have in him. Risk for a former overall #2 makes sense for them. Wiseman can shoot. Duren is 19, he’s got development time. They could get funky and play both.
DET should shift to winning next year with Cade this deep in his tenure.
Childish and embarrassing, sure. But this is infinitely less entertaining than said fistfight.
Being on this blog today, I just know I want to be in places where I’m celebrated and not just tolerated or just kinda dealt with in a way that doesn’t make me feel respected. There were times throughout this process when I was on Knickerblogger where I felt very disrespected and my talent — I work extremely hard at what I do. No one talks about my work ethic, though. Everyone talks about what I’m doing off the blog. I just want to change that narrative, write my own story.
Here’s what’s *really* boring:
—-Meta-whingings about process on the internet.
—-The word “troll” in all its forms, right down to the lonely gerund.
I read his stuff — it’s usually pretty good — but I don’t think I’ve literally said a word to djphan as long as I’ve been here. Yet he’s stepped out and called me a troll and otherwise whined at least a dozen times.
And yet again today.
So if the idea is to tone down the ids on display around here, there’s probably a way to do it. Whining and routinely using the dumbass, lazyass word “troll” probably isn’t that way.
Me too. The team chemistry is off the charts. And that’s another thing i liked about Hart, because Brunson’s reaction tells you what you need to know if the new guy will be easily integrated or not.
Guys, it’s my fault, i forgot to ask for peace at KB on my new year wishes!
Fred Katz nee article has some tantalizing insights.
But there’s also this:
Brock Aller is a mad genius.
***maybe Nerlens Noel***
We can’t get Noel even if he’s waived.
I bet he has done it just for showboating, 😀
Interesting piece in The Athletic about Payton/Wiseman, including this, which makes me think of the Knicks:
“their three most impactful bench players will all be 6-foot-4 and under guards”
Probably the only similarity between the Warriors and the Knicks, but still.
And to take the piss out of myself, one of the reasons I don’t usually indulge in draft pick discussions here or elsewhere, incinerated or otherwise, is I’m hugely ignorant about it all. Wiseman’s a great example — I knew just enough (big, athletic, people like him) to be dangerous.
I’d love to be paid for it and make a giant Strat spreadsheet and spend months and years digging into what tangibles make 30-picks into an all-stars. Some part of me believes it can be done, at least more regularly than it appears (which seems to be dumb luck for the most part). But I also realize there are lots of people who ARE paid to do this and seem to fail all the time.
@raven…i was with you until the sister analogy…what the heck was that?
also speaking of cabbage fight..i was just at the deli and there were three ribs left under the heat lamp and I said i would take them…and then this construction dude walked in and said he wanted them and I said they were all his and then he told me to take them…very civilzed resolution to getting the last three ribs…
E you’ve been trolling since the first time you came on this board with your asinine frank posts… and yea you were aiming squarely at me for whatever reason and i first took the bait but i don’t anymore but i called you a troll then and you are still that same troll….
you have bouts of sanity but all in all you ask and call for attention for whatever the most provocative take of the day is…. and the less attention you get the more outlandish the takes get…. it’s irritating but not nearly as bad as what z has been doing for the life of this blog….
all these conflicts will stop as long as the board keeps its members in check… which it mostly does but doesn’t for one particular charter member for some unknown reason…. well maybe it’s known but it’s a stupid one….
and i know folks have a lot of respect for Sam Vecenie…. he does good work on the draft and the like but he and the rest of the Athletic were going gaga over our 2021 offseason…. which some people may forget kind of failed spectacularly….
that doesn’t mean these guys are not smart… but they’re not rocket scientists with some amazing rigor in their analysis.. they are going off as much as vibes as you guys are….
Someone tell Aller he doesn’t need to go to all that trouble, it’s only Dolan’s money! 😀
For a really depressing exercise, who is our all-time greatest SG? Houston? Starks? Sprewell, who mostly played SF? Zach LaVine would have been it, wouldn’t he?
The sheer consistency and longevity of our historical lack of talent boggles my mind sometimes.
Tim Hardaway, Jr.
who’s up for a book club where all we do is check rockets boxscore to see if justin holiday can make a run at the record for most minutes in a season without attempting a single free throw. also fournier is six seven mouth breather.
you gotta turn read receipts on and leave ’em be for a few days
she’ll be back
Earl Monroe is probably the Knicks best 2 guard
“E you’ve been trolling since the first time you came on this board with your asinine frank posts… and yea you were aiming squarely at me for whatever reason”
I don’t know you, djphan, but if you honestly think I was “aiming squarely at you” in the Frank discussions, I’d suggest in all sincerity a serious revisit. Seriously.
I don’t mean this as an insult in any way shape or form and like I said, I read your stuff and it’s generally pretty good, but you haven’t crossed my mind in a single word I’ve written on Knickerblogger, about Frank or otherwise. I wouldn’t have changed a letter if you’d never been here. So, yeah — wow.
Please don’t take it the wrong way — it’s not meant that way *at all* — but that’s the stark reality. Not only was I not “baiting” you; you didn’t even cross my mind. (There’s a big sense in which that’s actually a compliment. Usually, it’s the people who write drivel that tend to stick in the mind, although it shouldn’t be that way.)
Take it as a lesson, maybe, and I will do the same.
“you have bouts of sanity but all in all you ask and call for attention for whatever the most provocative take of the day is…. and the less attention you get the more outlandish the takes get”
Nope. I’ve had exactly the same philosophy on how to team build, the Knicks “strategy,” Tom Thibodeau, etc., since the day I showed up. Haven’t wavered a bit. Still haven’t. That might seem “provocative” since there are times it is pretty starkly at odds with the prevailing sentiment (and times it isn’t) around here, but so be it. I suppose that might “get attention” from time to time, but there’s no sense in which attention is being “sought.” Why would it be? I participate for free.
I’ve got a hot sister. What am I supposed to do, let someone else fuck her?
NBA decided to keep Kyrie in the east, so Steph’s replacement comes from the west and is De’Aaron Fox. This means Brunson is not an all star. Edwards and Siakam will replace Zion and KD.
Not to be a party pooper, but am I the only one kinda turned off by all this sister-fucking talk? Don’t feel like unpacking the misogynistic overtimes, but aren’t we better than this kind of humor?
“NBA decided to keep Kyrie in the east, so Steph’s replacement comes from the west and is De’Aaron Fox. This means Brunson is not an all star. Edwards and Siakam will replace Zion and KD.”
Damn. Who is replacing Jaylen Brown?
Sorry, wasn’t clear. The idea was indeed comparing an argument to someone else treating one’s sister badly.
I suspect I won’t be telling my sisters about this little snafu.
Hart has been ruled OUT for tonight.
I interpret my little tete-a-tete with Z-Man earlier more as Seinfeld stealing the marble rye out of that old lady’s hands as she innocently walked down the street.
Which one of us is Seinfeld and which is the old lady can be left with the audience for its consideration.
I guess Brown will play because they still list him as an all star.
This beef is pure New York.
It’s actually making me hungry. I may have to go to Katz’s
Now the fun begins… which Hart? 😀
How many do you have? I probably win, i have three! 😉
“Sorry, wasn’t clear. The idea was indeed comparing an argument to someone else treating one’s sister badly.”
I understood it the way you meant it, probably not the best choice of analogy even as intended, but hehe whatever, no biggie. But as to your actual intent, please know I will not stand by when Hubert or anyone else goes out of the way to take shots at me as he did today. Nor will I stand by when an unhinged weirdo with a permagrudge that I have dutifully ignored for the betterment of the blog chimes in on said matter even though he knows full well where it will lead. Beyond that, I’ll do my best. If I can have a constructive dialogue with E, I can have one with anybody.
“Now the fun begins… which Hart? 😀”
LOL, we have to come up with some mutually agreeable nomenclature…say iHart for Isaiah and JHart for Josh?
Hahaha, this is funny! And reminded me of another great episode, as we were talking some weeks ago, the Puerto Rican Day episode is great with Kramer accidentally burning a flag in the middle of the parade. Hilarious!
Yeah, i’m good with that. So you were talking about JHart, right?
“Yeah, i’m good with that. So you were talking about JHart, right?”
Yes…although it sucks, it’s probably less bad than if iHart was out, being how thin we are at C…
One guy who must be thrilled with the Josh Hart acquisition is Clyde, who will no longer have to worry that Svi Mykhailiuk’s number might be called…
So our all-time best SG never exceeded 2 BPM or .160 WS/48?
They don’t have delis in westchester?
Why is jHart out? Did anyone say?
Probably a logistics related thing…hasn’t practiced with the team or maybe something related to protocol for a traded player. Just a guess though.
I haven’t seen anything that says Hart is out except for on here
Here’ where I got the info…
Yeah, I don’t think I trust a random fan writer and I haven’t seen any beat writers report it.
But coincidentally, it’s just been reported that Hart is available. By Doc Rivers for some reason? So… still maybe up in the air
Edit: Okay Bondy says he won’t play. No reason given.
Hope so! Seems like there’s no reason other than a stupid logistical one that he can’t be…is there a mandatory physical that has to be passed or something?
He did pass the physical though, so maybe it’s just about practice reps or maybe another player in the trade needs to pass a physical?
The Bondy report just happened and he got it from Thibs.
Mitch out till after AS break -Katz
Z-man, the page you quote links to this, which says trade pending:
Jalen Mcdaniels is in the same category for Philly, and there are a bunch of players for other teams in the same category. And I think it’s very common for trades to require physicals and those do take time. So it could be something like that.
“Mitch out till after AS break -Katz”
Makes sense, while these games are important, more important to get him right. The extra 2 weeks will probably be worth it.
As to JHart, at least we have another game tomorrow, so maybe it’s good that he will be fresh and hungry for the B2B. Tonight’s game is sort of a scheduled loss for me, I’d love a win but if you believe as I do that we will lose at least a few of the remaining 26 games, this is likely one of them. Tomorrow is another story.
holy cow…just saw burt bacharach also wrote the theme to: The Love Boat…that is so awesome…
Love, life’s sweetest reward.
Let it flow, it floats back to you.
The love boat soon will be making another run
The love boat promises something for everyone
Set a course for adventure,
Your mind on a new romance.
Love won’t hurt anymore
It’s an open smile on a friendly shore.
if you believe as I do that we will lose at least a few of the remaining 26 games
unless it’s the pistons, i expect a loss every time out…life is easier for me that way
We have no more games against the Pistons 😔
After today’s effusions we need someone to write a song for us and call it “The Love Blog”…
We used to have delis and pizza joints in Kingston but now we have $12-for-a-loaf-of-wild-levain spots and other assorted yuppie bullshit. I mean I’m gentrifying the fuck out of Portland over here but the Hudson Valley should be summarily cleansed of weekender fucks.
J-Hart not playing is a bit of a bummer :-S
Will Embiid play? Any news on that?
Embiid is Questionable with a foot injury
Keels & Jeffries active tonight
Arch is no longer here, so someone has to take on the Theo Pinson role. 😛
Thanks for the update EB.
Would Keels and Jeffries play it means we’re in a lot of troubles 🙂
Nice for them to smell League’s air though…
What’s this bullshit about Portland being the pizza capital of the US? Blasphemy!!